125 thoughts on “Open Thread – Brown Pundits”

  1. How true is this? Someone I discuss history with DMed me it

    “What devoured glamorous Pakistan”

    Vir Sanghvi
    Express News Service
    First Published : 05 Sep 2010 11

    “I wrote, a few weeks ago, about how much the attitude to Indians had changed in the West. Once we were regarded as losers, people who inhabited a desperately poor country, continually ravaged by famine or drought, incapable of making a single world-class product, and condemned to live forever on foreign aid. Now, we have the world’s respect and, more tellingly, the West’s envy as more and more jobs are Bangalored away from their high-cost economies and handed over to Indians who perform much better for less money.

    That piece was prompted by a visit to London. This one too has been inspired by a trip abroad and by saturation coverage of the Pakistani cricket scandal in the press and on global TV channels. But my concern this week is not with how the West sees India.
    It is with the transformation of the image of the global Pakistani.

    I was at school and university in England in the Seventies and lived in London in the early 1980s. This was a time when Pakistan was regarded — hard as this may to believe now — as being impossibly glamorous. The star of my first term at Oxford was Benazir Bhutto. In my second term, she became president of the union and was the toast of Oxford. Her father was then prime minister of Pakistan and lucky students vied for the opportunity to visit Karachi or Islamabad as guests of the Bhuttos. They came back with stories of unbelievable hospitality and spoke knowledgeably about Pakistan’s feudal structure, about landowners like the Bhuttos, about an autocracy that had reigned for centuries etc.

    Even on the other side of the ideological divide, Pakistan was all too visible. He had come down from Oxford nearly eight years before, but a former president of the union, the charismatic Trotskyite Tariq Ali was still the sort of chap who made English girls swoon. For her first debate as president of the Oxford Union, Benazir asked Tariq Ali to speak. He agreed but then, rather inconveniently, he was detained by the police on a visit to Pakistan. No matter. He phoned Benazir who spoke to daddy and — hey presto! — Tariq was out of jail and on a plane to England. Pakistan was that kind of country, the British chortled delightedly.

    In those days, us poor Indians hardly ever got a look in. The Pakistanis were dashing, far richer (they spent in a week what we spent in the whole term), always going off to chic parties or nightclubs in London and charming the pants off the British (often, quite literally).

    In that era, the Arabs had just emerged on the world stage (following the massive oil-price hikes of 1973/4) and the Pakistanis were almost proprietorial about them. A Pakistani graduate student at my college, even affected Arab dress from time to time and bragged that he had taught Arabs how to fly planes.

    My college-mate was merely reprising Z A Bhutto’s philosophy: the Arabs were rich but they were camel drivers. They needed Pakistanis to run the world for them and to teach them Western ways. It was this sort of thinking that led to the creation of the Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI), the first global Third World bank, run by Pakistanis with Arab money. For most of the 1980s, BCCI was staffed by sharply dressed young Pakistanis who entertained at London (and New York’s) best restaurants, hit the casinos after dinner and talked casually about multi-million dollar deals.

    Their flamboyant lifestyle was matched by other rich Pakistanis. In his autobiography, Marco Pierre White, the first of the British super-chefs (he was the original bad boy and Gordon Ramsay worked for him), talks about the Pakistanis who were his first regulars. Michel Roux, then England’s top chef (three Michelin stars) would fly out to Pakistan to cook at private parties thrown by wealthy individuals. In the late 1980s, a friend of mine went to dinner in Pakistan and was startled to be asked to guess the vintages of three different bottles of Mouton Rothschild, one of the world’s most expensive wines.

    In that era, Indians knew absolutely nothing about wine or French food and the few Indian millionaires who vacationed in London were vegetarians.
    Pakistanis were sex symbols too. The first international cricketing stud was Imran Khan (who finished at Oxford the term before I got there) and his sex appeal was so legendary that even Benazir joked about it. Told that Gen Zia-ul-Haq called him the ‘Lion of the Punjab,” Benazir said, “Yes but Zia pronounces “Lion as ‘Loin’ and this is appropriate.” Years later when Imran spoke about his love for Pakistan, a British columnist sneered, “His heart may be in Pakistan but his loins are in the King’s Road” referring to a trendy (and expensive) London area.
    Even Pakistan’s millionaires were more glamorous than ours. In the Eighties when the Hinduja brothers (“we are strictly vegetarian”) first emerged in London, the Pakistanis stole the show with such flamboyant high-profile millionaires in Mahmud Sipra who financed feature films and kept a big yacht in the South of France.
    So what went wrong?

    It’s hard to pin point any single reason but I can think of several contributing factors.

    First of all, much of the Pakistani profile was based on flash and fraud. BCCI collapsed amidst allegations that it was a scamster’s bank. Mahmud Sipra left England with the Fraud Squad in hot pursuit even as he
    declared his innocence from beyond Scotland Yard’s jurisdiction. Many big-spending Paksitanis turned out to be heroin smugglers.

    Secondly, Indian democracy came to our rescue. The Brits who bragged about Bhutto hospitality and the Pakistan aristocracy missed the obvious point: this was a deeply unequal and therefore unstable society. When Bhutto rigged an election, this led to his downfall.

    Thirdly, Pakistan signed its own death warrant by trying to out-Arab the Arabs with a policy of Islamisation. This reached its peak under General Zia who declared a jihad against the Russians in Afghanistan and invited Arabs such as Osama bin Laden to come to Pakistan to fight the holy war. Ultimately, fundamentalist Islam devoured what was left of glamorous Pakistan.

    Fourthly, the world just moved on. Flash can only get you so far. In the end it is substance that counts. And plodding, boring India came up with the substance.

    It is hard to think, when you look at today’s Pakistan team, that Pakistani cricketers were such sex symbols in India in the 1980s that Imran Khan was able to brag to an interviewer “Indian actresses are chickens. They just want to get laid” (In all fairness, Imran later said he had been misquoted.)
    Get laid by today’s team? You must be joking.

    Even the Pakistani playboys who are still around no longer seem exciting or glamorous. Poor Imran just looks tired. And the rest look like Asif Zardari — pretty much the archetypal glamorous Pakistani of the Eighties — though perhaps not as disgustingly sleazy.
    Of all these factors, two remain the most important. A nation created on the basis of Islam was destroyed by too much Islam. And a nation dedicated to democracy flourished because of too much democracy.”

    1. My first reaction is that author is making the most of the trend in India to diss all things Pakistani. Remember that we share the same genetic makeup, at least in adjacent North Indian states. And more importantly, if one were to reflect on “A nation created on the basis of Islam was destroyed by too much Islam”, India’s recent lurch towards Hindutva should give us much pause.

      So, a little too self-congratulatory and smug is how I would characterize this article.

      1. “So, a little too self-congratulatory and smug is how I would characterize this article.”

        Hasn;t this been our attitude t the neighborhood since forever. TBH i welcome India’s recent pragmatic stance and not trying to be this dad figure for the subcontinent.

        1. Pak Defense reads it as Pakistani men are all slayers and Indians are all pervert cucks like Gandhi lmfao

          This was along with several posts of the middle aged men there making up lies about their sexual experiences, even comparing them to Imran Khan’s

          Then amidst the humble brag, they would say how they are all reformed by all forgiving Allah and how Imran is too. The delusion is strong lol.

          Imran was a player. But people who post on Pakdefense, besides maybe a couple, if that even not possibly, are straight up delusional

      2. We’re nothing alike. We revere cows and they eat cows. We will have names like Rajendra from Lucknow to Chennai, while they will have names like Jalaluddin from Karachi to Lahore.

        The Lahore/Amritsar comparison gives it away. Mere miles apart, yet they are more similar to cities on the other side of their respective countries than they are to each other…

    2. I think a part of this was an attempt to prop up Pakistan in a favourable image within the west because they were American allies at the time. But the alliance wasn’t going to last.

    3. I hate to break it to you, but Indians are still regarded as losers from a desperately poor country.

      Pakistanis, irrespective of how many white women Imran Khan slept with, were always regarded as religiously conservative, and Pakistan, as dysfunctional and impoverished.

      I agree that whatever brief sheen Pakistan had has long since gone, though the same is now true of India if one follows the international coverage of its descent into Hindu-right authoritarianism.

      I dislike discussions about which ethnicity is more “dashing” than another, but judging by the success of diaspora populations in the dating market, as well as how they are represented in popular media, Pakistanis still have quite a leg up on Indians.

      1. Pakistanis have lower interracial relations than Indians per official stats. Pakistanis and Indians are equally bullied. So stfu with your lies. A cricket gigolo doesn’t prove anything

        “This paper describes a questionnaire survey of 243 Hindu, Indian Muslim and Pakistani children attending temples and mosques in the Preston and Bolton area of Lancashire, asking about their experiences of school bullying, who bullied them and in what way. Results show that bullying was widespread (57 per cent of boys and 43 per cent of girls had been bullied that school term), and that all three ethnic groups suffered equally.”

        https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. … ode=rere20

        Pakistanis are known to have cousin marriage rates in UK. So dashing they practice incest. So dashing they are known for raping little white girls en masse and partake in boys when the girls are locked away in the homeland. What players. Lmfao you are as delusional as Pakdefense.

        Btw, “bobs and vagene” is from Karachi

        1. I can see I’ve touched a nerve, which again, is why I don’t like these discussions, as one group always ends up quite triggered.

          Minorities generally report higher rates of bullying, this does not have anything to do with how successful one is in the sexual market. Cousin marriage and grooming gangs are also irrelevant in this discussion.

          Pakistanis are dramatically more pressured to marry inter-culturally (and religiously) than Indians, and do so. But before marriage, they have a lot more success than Indians in dating around. In fact, even ACS study (which I think you are referring to), implies Pakistanis are more successful even at the marriage stage, as Pakistanis joins only Whites and Africans as having a higher rate of marriage for males than females. Indians join most other East-Asians in having more single males.

          The most popular portrays of Indians are Raj from Big Bang Theory, Apu from Simpson, and Dev Patel. For Pakistanis, its Zayn Malik, Amir Khan, and Kumail Nanjiani. The “mean” stereotypes for each are also telling. For Indians, its lame nerd. For Pakistanis, its violent terrorist. The latter is dramatically more appealing to women.

          1. The most popular portrays of Indians are Raj from Big Bang Theory, Apu from Simpson, and Dev Patel. For Pakistanis, its Zayn Malik, Amir Khan, and Kumail Nanjiani. The “mean” stereotypes for each are also telling. For Indians, its lame nerd. For Pakistanis, its violent terrorist. The latter is dramatically more appealing to women.

            no one knows these distinctions in the USA. this is ridiculous.

          2. the main benefit to paks isn’t stereotypes and perceptions. it’s just a minority of pakistani men are liminally ‘whiteish’ so harder to tag as brown-loser. they can code as ‘iranian’ or generic middle eastern. at least that’s my perception.

            but hey, we got an expert on south asians here 😉

          3. lol that is because they cage their women. and they have a 9% interracial marriage rate. Indians are at 12%. stop making up shit. And indian men and women in the US interacially marry at the same rates. Look at pew data. Stop spouting nonsense lmfao

            Indian men more actually. Look at brownpundit posts on interracial marriage stats. You are empirically a fraud, when evidence is in plain sight amd discussed. I heavily even doubt your anecdote based on that. Go back to the racist echochamber and confirmation bias ditch of pakdefense if you want to spout lies unchallenged

          4. Warlock I don’t think you understand how statistics work.

            Yes, Indian men and women have similar rates of intermarriage, AMONG MARRIED individuals. But more Indian women are married than Indian men. This pattern is seen in groups that have poor male sexual success (East Asians generally).

            In contrast, Pakistani men, like Black and White men, out marry their women. You can call it “caging women” though this is plainly not true in the diaspora (which is what we are talking about), but the facts remain.

            I’m done with this convo. Its clear you are quite sensitive to this and probably are nursing an inferiority complex. You can deny and smear all you want online but the real world results are clear.

          5. Razib,

            You are probably correct for your generation, but for my in-college generation right now, most people clearly distinguish Indians from Pakistanis. In fact, Indian-Punjabis make a great fuss about also distinguishing themselves from Indians, and hence, are also coded as separate.

            You are right that Kumail is at first glance seen as Indian, because he looks Indian. This is because his parents are actually ethnic Indians who migrated to Pakistan (Muhajirs). I should probably substitute Riz Ahmed in.

            I’m not an expert on these things, but I’ve been around mid-major urban areas in the US and Canada, and am generally aware of what goes on in the UK due to family there. The idea that Pakistanis and (non-Punjabi) Indians are even comparable in the cool/sexual market is ludicrous.

          6. “You are right that Kumail is at first glance seen as Indian, because he looks Indian. This is because his parents are actually ethnic Indians who migrated to Pakistan (Muhajirs).”

            Nanjiani appears a Sindhi surname. Sindhis are less AASI than Punjabis, which means they are less Indian genetically. ?

          7. Is Nanjiani a Sindhi name?

            Kumail says he’s from Karachi, the largest population there is Muhajir, and a disproportionate number of Pakistani immigrants to America have been the relatively more well off Muhajirs. Sindhis are less than 10% of Karachi.

          8. “The most popular portrays of Indians are Raj from Big Bang Theory, Apu from Simpson, and Dev Patel. For Pakistanis, its Zayn Malik, Amir Khan, and Kumail Nanjiani.”

            The Great Khali

          9. ““-ani” is just not limited to Sindhis. Mukesh Ambani is not sindhi”

            Can’t think of a non-Sindhi north Indian surname where the suffix ‘-ani’ is part of a separate syllable. Some incidence in west India, mostly Lohanas and some castes in Sindh’s neighbouring Saurashtra/Kachchh region.

            Ambani family comes from Junagadh in Saurashtra. Adani from Tharad on the border with Pakistan.

            Durrani and Irani are other names. Mostly people of Afghan and Persian origin use them. I think Durrani is also used by some Kashmiris.

      2. I hate to break it to you, but Indians are still regarded as losers from a desperately poor country.

        losers sort of i agree. otoh, the ‘desperately poor country’ is empirically true, but not really the perception as much due to outsourcing.

        the ‘losers’ is brown in general. nothing specific to indians.

        i live the USA. my experiences are just as real as yours, and i have a lot more experience since i’m older.

    4. \BCCI collapsed amidst allegations \
      Allegations , what a joke. It was a well established fact that BCCI was the clearing house for Crooks-Central. The Bank of England made a surgical strike on it one fine morning and central banks all over the world locked and froze BCCI.

    5. An article like this written around 2003-4 in an Indian magazine remains in my secure memory because of the take of Post 9-11 world. The article mentioned that before 9-11, every sunday (or may be Friday) a large protest by Muslims in London about Indian occupation of Kashmir used to take place, every week, year after year, at the same spot. After 9-11, like swept away by a magic brush, the regular protests vanished. This is how the world changed after 9-11. Many Muslims and many Muslim countries had to go through long adjustment process about this new world and frankly, most of them still has not processed this. They still don’t understand how worse the situation can become steadily.

  2. What would be the genetic make up of Average Bangladeshis if the east asian hill tribes mix with us completely?…Any idea?

    It is very important for us to have more Mountain* ancestry as it will probably make us better and it will enable our tribe to protect ourselves from the Sky* people and other neighbouring Mountain people(Though i dont want us to look like them)

    Jai Shree Mountain❤

    *Mountain=East Asian

    1. There is no mountain which we steppe people cant conquer.

      Ask the Dravidians. Where we can’t reach, our religion will .Huhahaha

      1. “There is no mountain which we steppe people cant conquer.”
        1st defeat the Mountain Dragon (i.e. China). LOL

        “Ask the Dravidians. Where we can’t reach, our religion will .Huhahaha”
        Be aware. Pakistanis are also children of the Skyfather. They will try the same against rival Sky tribes.

        1. Core Pakistanis don’t seem to have a lot of steppe.

          “sample”: “Punjabi_Lahore:Average”,
          “fit”: 2.249,
          “IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2”: 55,
          “Paniya”: 31.67,
          “RUS_Sintashta_MLBA”: 8.33,
          “IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1”: 5

          The sub-populations of Pakistan who do have more steppe than regular north Indians also kind of want out of the deal- look up Balochi separatism and stuff happening in Gilgit-Baltistan/Balawaristan.

          1. The Punjabi Lahore sample has a ton of low castes in it, disproportional to their actual population in Pakistan-Punjab.

            Non low castes in Pakistani Punjab have more steppe than all Indians except Northern Brahmans and their Punjabi neighbors.

            The only significant separatist movement in Pak is Baluchistan, which most Baluchis do not support (analogous to Sikh separatism in its heyday).

        2. LOL, Mountain dragon worries more about his smaller mountain tigers and Islanders to the East than to us. So we are (mostly) good. Hopefully .

          On Pakistan haven;t the alliance of Mountain and steppe people defeated them once already? Like in sort of 10 days 😛 I think they are now camel people rather than steppe people.

          1. Even the populations with more steppe than core Pakistanis in Pakistan are under 30% so referring to them as steppe people wouldn’t be appropriate either.

          2. Then the europid looks of Pakistanis are probably the result of high River ancestry.

            May Tsar Razib Khan make many threads about genetic make ups of different tribes including jews,hispanics etc.

            By the will of our Abrahamic god, may our Mountain blood strengthens us to stand against Hindiya, Puckistan and our Bummer neighbours.

            Jai Shree Mountain❤

            Mountain=East Asian
            Desert=West Asian?

          3. “River=Indus
            Mountain=East Asian
            Desert=West Asian?”
            More interested to know about our Jungle ancestors, they might be a cross between an Ogre tribe(Cro-Magnon like) and a Goblin tribe(Andamanese like).

  3. Have been using the online Global25 Nmontes Runner, and seem to have stumbled on something intriguing:

    It seems that, taking into account MBA Eastern BMAC ancestry, the Bronze Age Central Asian component of modern Indian populations is understated. The best fits I find are a combination of:


    The results are, for Khatris and Iyers:

    1 Iyer:Average
    Fit: 0.4747
    Steppe: 19.17
    IVCp: 39.17
    AASI: 26.67
    UZB Dzharkutan1: 15

    2 Khatri:Average
    Fit: 0.5465
    Steppe: 25.83
    IVCp: 27.5
    AASI: 13.33
    UZB Dzharkutan1: 33.33

    3 Chamar:Average
    Fit: 0.8028
    Steppe: 11.67
    IVCp: 36.67
    AASI: 43.33
    UZB Dzharkutan1: 8.33

    4 Paniya:Average
    Fit: 1.2063
    Steppe: 4.17
    IVCp: 24.17
    AASI: 71.67
    UZB Dzharkutan1: 0

    It appears that the Central Asian (Steppe + BMAC) component is as high as 58% and remains at 4% even in lower caste South Indian populations.

    My day job is looking at mathematics for markets, so I always shudder when people misuse math to come to an erroneous conclusion. I certainly don’t understand the math behind these tools with sufficient depth to understand how the results might have been thrown, or how the ‘Simulated AASI”s composition might skew the results, but as I cut the data different ways, it seems that using ‘Onge’ for AASI strongly skews the results towards IVCp.

    As an American, I don’t really have a dog in the battle over creation myth, but this seems to raise the question on whether we have significantly understated the Bronze Age Central Asian component of our ancestry.

    1. I don’t understand what you are saying. I think I am misunderstanding. What is being over vs. understated as ancestry and why?

      Regardless, what is G25 based on? Where have these results been published?

      The dog in the fight stuff doesn’t even matter to me anymore. If a logical argument is presented, it is presented. Also, judging by your name on here you have S Asian heritage. I know very few S Asians, who at least subconsciously, don’t have a dog in this fight. But you might be in the minority.

      From Razib what I remember saying, if anything Steppe ancestry is OVERREPRESENTED. I’d like to hear his reasons again, as to why he thinks that. There could be a bias that way in the modeling as well. So I just want to clarify what exactly your argument is about the modeling? That using Onge as a proxy for AASI somehow skews the situation to overrepresent IVC ancestry and underrepresent steppe ancestry? What evidence is there that the other proxy is superior? Is it just that the result is 4% for S Indian lower castes and 58% for Punjabi Khatris when a different model is used? I mean we can all play with models all day long to push results in one direction or another just via trial and error.

      Also, where are these samples from? I hear a lot of on line samples and people running their own DNA. That’s great. But I don’t know who these people are. What is the methodology of collection. Frankly. I see a pattern of the same guys on anthrogenica running stuff over and over again to make things retrofit their preconceived notions which rest on the desire to prove themselves as West Eurasian shifted as possible.

      1. I’d like to hear his reasons again, as to why he thinks that.

        my arg is we have near-perfect proxies for steppe. less for the other ancestral groups. InPe have some AASI. we don’t have 100% indo-iranian-farmer. and we obv don’t have 100% AASI.

        1. Hello Razib, by 100% Indo-Iranian farmer are you referring to the Iran component that moved to south Asia? As far as non-heavily Anatolian farmer admixed Iranian cereal farmers are concerned, I only know of Tepe Abdul Hosein.

          The neolithic Ganj Dareh people on the other hand, shouldn’t be classified as agriculturalists, rather agropastoralists at most since as far as crops are concerned, they only cultivated 2-row barley and 2-row barley also happens to be the better kind for fermentation and thus alcohol production. Most of their subsistence would have come from their goat and probably even sheep herds.

          AH is like Cain and GD is like Abel not only because of the farmer and pastoralist thing, but also because AH and GD are quite closely related, more than either are to Hotu cave HGs.

    2. I definitely agree about Onge being a bad fit, which is why I use Paniya instead now a days, which while not ideal, should be better.

      All of steppe isn’t the same thing, as far as Dzharkutan1 is concerned, here is the breakdown:
      “sample”: “UZB_Dzharkutan1_BA:Average”,
      “fit”: 1.1141,
      “TKM_Gonur1_BA”: 78.33,
      “TKM_Parkhai_EBA”: 17.5,
      “RUS_Sintashta_MLBA”: 3.33,
      “RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N”: 0.83

      As per Narasimhan, Gonur is largely Iran_N + Tyumen + AASI. So, the total steppe_MLBA type ancestry in Dzharkutan1 is only 3.33%. All it does is eat away the Iran_N component of IVC and transfer it to a different section. I think that the late 2018 paper which overestimated the steppe in south Asians all the way to high 50s and low 60s did something similar.

      Parkhai and gonur breakdown for some more context:

      1. can you please interpret my results in that context and tell me why my IVC is so high with this paradigm? Like how did it jump up and my Dzharkutan is relatively low compared to the Iyers? And how did my AASI ancestry fall with it?

        Do I have certain sub-types of IVC that are more predominant than the Iyers (keep referencing them because that’s the group I seem to always cluster with)

        1. IVCp already has some AASI in it (it is basically Shahr BA2 + Shahr BA3 combined- both are presented in the imgur pic I uploaded in a previous post in this same open thread), and the extra AASI component probably only covers the later more recent AASI input in the presence of the IVCp component. Razib talked about this in the podcast with Narasimhan.
          I am not sure about the Iyer thing- maybe a significant part of their Iranian ancestry is more recent- in other words it could have come with the steppe ancestry while most of your Iranian ancestry is already from the Indus valley. The Iran ancestry in Indus valley as per the Rakhigarhi paper is separated from other kinds of Iran ancestries pretty early on (doesn’t give a proper time, but its before the Holocene) so maybe global25 is picking up on that ans saying that you have more of the IVC Iran ancestry while Iyers have more of the BMAC related Iran ancestry.

  4. Scaled 2.2091
    CustomGroup CentralSteppeMLBA- 15
    CustomGroup IVCp- 68.33
    CustomGroup Simulated AASI- 13.33
    UZB Dzharkutan1 BA- 3.33

    My results. This model is whack for me at least. I have the same AASI as Khatris (I should have more), and the most IVCp I have ever seen on any model of mine. The fit isn’t great either. I have also clustered with Iyers on pretty much everything, thus far. Somehow this model is suddenly much different. Very odd. May you stumbled upon something superior with the modeling, but I have my doubts just due to the degree of inconsistency of my results with prior models. Granted, n=1.

    May the Jungle… well actually per this model Sky Father smile upon me. And may the River Mother bless me intensely apparently.
    Jai Shree Ameen

  5. @ thewarlock

    Apologies for the lack of clarity, the point I was making was that one of the (many) interesting conclusions of the Narasimhan, et. al paper was that there was no BMAC ancestry into South Asia, which seems to be challenged by this model. Now, it’s entirely possible and quite likely that the depth of their modeling resources and computational power far exceeds this tool and that this view can be disproven, but thought it merited discussion.

    Agreed emphatically on the danger of using confirmation bias to guide model creation. I shared this combination based on its having the best fit of any combination of 4 ML Bronze Age demographics for the groups I was looking at, hence my selection of it. However, similar results as regards fit for Iyers, Khatris, and a cohort of others can be obtained replacing Dzarkhutan with Bustan, Sappali Tepe, etc which, again, seems to point to a significant BMAC component. That said, mathematical optimization ≠ truth.

    I will echo a point commonly made and note that it is unfortunate we don’t have the same resolution in mapping AASI and hence have the need to rely on proxies and that the proxies seem to have such a strong impact on the models.

    Another lurking factor that might be having an impact is the location of the Indus Valley Periphery samples, which are quite far from the IVC proper, and at least in the case of Gonur Tepe, are physically in the BMAC, Given what is likely a gradient between BMAC-like and AASI-like ancestry, it’s possible the BMAC ancestry gets subsumed into IVCp.

    I share your fascination with the attempt to prove a ‘West Eurasian shift’, while I will grant the Central Steppe MLBA period shares a strong genetic affinity with CWC and was unusually WHG-shifted for that part of the Steppe, relative to that region during other periods, it strikes me as more intellectually honest to view the results as indicative of a Central Asian shift or even an Ancient North Eurasian shift shared in both Northern & Eastern Europe, India, and in the latter case, Native Americans, rather than a Western Eurasian shift. One of the things I’ve enjoyed most about recent results is how elements from the anthropological and linguistic record turned out to be partially correct, but have a completely different narrative meaning than anyone could anticipate.

  6. Pakistanis have lower interracial relations than Indians per official stats. Pakistanis and Indians are equally bullied. So sop with your lies. A cricket gigolo doesn’t prove anything
    “This paper describes a questionnaire survey of 243 Hindu, Indian Muslim and Pakistani children attending temples and mosques in the Preston and Bolton area of Lancashire, asking about their experiences of school bullying, who bullied them and in what way. Results show that bullying was widespread (57 per cent of boys and 43 per cent of girls had been bullied that school term), and that all three ethnic groups suffered equally.”

    Pakistanis are known to have the highest cousin marriage rates in UK. So dashing they practice incest. So dashing they are known for raping little white girls en masse- thousands via rape gangs, such as those of Bradford- and partake in little boys via bachabazi when the girls are locked away in the homeland. What players. Lmfao you are as delusional as Pakdefense.

    Btw, “bobs and vagene” is from Karachi

    Don’t bring up all rape stats of India and articles of it being so much worse now lol. Indian rape is made public now via media. Pak it is still hidden. Pak has average HDI of bihar. Media doesn’t even begin to cover it. It will cone outm Give ir 100 years


    1. Pakistanis – both within and outside Pakistan – are not a uniform population. Upper class Pakistanis are generally more Westernised in outlook and lifestyle than blue collar Pakistanis. This makes averages less useful as predictors in this sort of thing.

      1. Oh, I know that. Indians are similar. There are the assimilated ones with money who are suave. The non assimilated ones with money (some of the IT incels that the media loves to mock aka Raj Kuthrapalis of the world). There are the uneducated ones who mostly stick to their own and get arranged marriages.

        But a comment above just tried to make a comment about how the average Pakistani does better than the average Indian socially in the West. This is frankly false. Even at the glamor tier, that success differential was, allegedly, specifically in the UK in the tight circle of super elite politicans and cricketers, there in the past.

        1. Indians are similar in kind (i.e. non-uniform) but if you imagine a spread along a westernised-to-orthodox dimension the standard deviation is much greater among Pakistanis than among Indians. At least, that has been my observation. This is particularly true I think, in the UK. I’d welcome correction/confirmation from folks in the UK.

          1. UK is totally different from USA. most pakistanis in the UK are native born and a far # are 2nd and 3rd generation. indians are mostly sikh or descended from secondary migrants from uganda

  7. http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/Klyosov/Klyosov2012R1aDNA_AryansEn.htm

    “At some point in time, the bearers of R1a1 began migration to the west, over Tibet and the Himalayas, and not later than 12,000 ybp they were in the Hindustan. They continued their way across the Iranian Plateau, along Anatolia and Asia Minor apparently between 10,000 and 9000 ybp. By 9000 – 8000 they arrived in the Balkans and spread westward over Europe and to the British Isles. At that point, R1a1 still had DYS392 = 13 in their haplotypes, as did their brother haplogroup R1b1. :

    Comment: A chronologically very early version of AIT that can be scientifically falsified by the expected paper from the Chaubey/Rai team.

  8. some indian vs pakistani (or vs. bangladeshi) arguments strike me as peoples front of judae vs judaean peoples front style arguments (e.g., who does better socially?).

      1. Furthermore, Whites can’t tell the difference between us anyways. I get mistaken for Muslim (and sometimes Arab) frequently.

        1. you are a tall lightish skinned north indian. so of course.

          which is the important point. it’s not pak vs indian in usa. it’s whether you are tall/short, dark/light, fob/born here. the combination of these things have various correlations. ppl sometimes tell me that i’m tall for a bengali. which is objectively true so stereotype is we’re short. but the stereotype has minimal impact on me dating since i’m not too short.

          1. When I leave the coasts enough clowns think even my medium brown ass is Middle Eastern. People really just don’t know. Can’t blame them fully though. As you said, they always use S Asians to portray terrorists. So idiocy prevails

            And I get asked no matter where I live, if I am Indian or Pakistani, by both S Asians and non S Asians. They never really know. Pakistanis act like they all look like Fawad Khan. There is overlap, even with people more South shifted than me. They just disown a lot of their people to make themselves feel better about any AASI insecurities. Indians do the same shit.

            And I say AASI because that is the surrogate marker that explains it all. It is those phenotypic loci which people have contempt for in S Asia.

            Remember, nothing in S Asian can be understood, except in the context of Steppe:AASI ratio.

    1. If the objective function for ‘coolness’ is marrying white people then Indians win hands down.

      If it is overall out-marriage rates, then we have competition. But it seems to me that a lot of Pakistanis marry Muslims from M-E (the ‘Others’ category), especially the women.

      Is marrying off your daughter to a West Asian considered prestigious?
      Might be a thing among Indian Muslims as well. Read news reports where girls in Hyderabad are married to Arab sheikhs and there’s a whole lot of abuse involved.

  9. and am generally aware of what goes on in the UK due to family there.

    the UK is totally different. what you are talking about makes more sense there.

    i am aware of punjabi differentiation. i taught students from punjabi communities in the central valley. but again, this isn’t pak vs. indian. there just aren’t that many paks in the USA anyhow (as opposed to UK).

  10. I was almost thinking Indthings is getting worthy of serious chat, till I stumbled on this..

    “For Indians, its lame nerd. For Pakistanis, its violent terrorist. The latter is dramatically more appealing to women.”

    so you see, women go like this…oooh, a terrorist! and a violent one at that! he is gonna put suicide vests on both of us and go BOOM! that’s gonna be so much fun!

    and look at that nerd. he will just bring a six figure salary home. what am i gonna do with all that money. i will rather go – BOOM!

    ROFL. will write more when i catch by breath!

    1. A potential terrorist is more sexually appealing than a potential dentist. Women are naturally attracted to men who are perceived as dangerous, mysterious, and aloof.

      The fact that I have to say this commonly understood phenomenon out-loud helps confirm what I’ve been saying about Indians/Pakistanis and the success they have with women.

      1. By this logic the moustachless bearded wonder I know who wears pants well above his ankles and a skullcap must have to beat them off with a stick. LOL.

  11. so you see, women go like this…oooh, a terrorist! and a violent one at that! he is gonna put suicide vests on both of us and go BOOM! that’s gonna be so much fun!

    this isn’t crazy tho. though for mormon women bourgeois appeal matters. i have a lot of mormon female friends from HS and a surprising # numbers married asian guys.

    there was a weird trope in 80s that terrorists (PFLP hijacker types) were sexy.

  12. Indians and Pakistanis both are considered terrorist looking, as long as they are not Mindy Kalingoids.

    My Dad was stopped in supermarkets, book stores, Starbucks enough post 9/11 (doesn’t help his building came down with the WTC and he works right there) and asked routinely something along the lines of: “Why are you doing this to us? Why are your people doing this to us?”

    If anything, the way lighter more superficially (I use this term to capture White perception, insofar as actually MENA and S Asians are way better at telling) “Middleastern” passing Pakistanis may get an even LESS terrorist rep to help than Indians. You have to analyze this stereotypes in practice and not in the abstract.

    The reality is S Asians in general simultaneously get the rapist, terrorist yet nerd loser dissonance stereotype all at once. It just depends how an individual chooses to perceive them and assign it. This will depend a lot on their social class but also grooming, such as the decision to have a beard or not.

    But yes, “danger” is attractive to some unstable women. But let me put it this way, S Asians in no way are even at the top of the “danger” market. Enough African American and Hispanic gangsters to fill the niche in the US.

    And Indians have improved in market. Sendhil Ramamurthy is a dark skinned Tamil man and is loved by women. Fully Indian heritage Jay Sean was loved by women and broke out bigger than half white half Pakistani Zayn Malik in some ways. And Amir Khan got cheated on by his arranged Paki wife with Anthony Joshua. The guy got cucked hard. So great example lmfao. We can play these games all day.

    And lol Kumail Nanjani plays a NERD in Silicon Valley. He was considered to be the archetype of the nerdy loser stereotype, just one who had a good personality and was funny, so he was able to move past his physical deficiencies (per Western context) to woo a white woman in Big Sick. Recently, he took some steroids (lol from supreme skinny fat to improvements in 10 months in his 40s, yeah the dude used some TRT, what he has is acheivable naturally but the age, time frame, and his apparent genetics- enough guys who don’t even work out or play sports looked better than his base- make it mad sketch, granted it could be heavily photoshopped based) and worked out a ton to get bigger for a Marvel Movie.

    In general, all S Asians on average don’t do well with the dating game in the US. There need to be improvements made across the board.

    1. Bro, stop hiding behind Punjabis. Punjabis have dissociated themselves from Indians to avoid this. Stop. Its cringe.

      The average Indian in America is not accused of being a terrorist, or seen in that light at all. Punjabi Sikhs have dealt with that, not Indians. This may have been true like right after 9/11 when nobody knew what a Muslim was, but in 2020, nobody outside of rural white people over 40 mistakes the average Indian as a terrorist. It rarely happens at all in Canada or the UK.

      Jay Sean is Punjabi, stop embarrassing yourself.

      Nobody knows who Sendhil is, I’m talking about popular celebrities people associate with Pakis/Indians. Raj from Big Bang Theory is what most people in the West think of when they think Indian.

      I agree with you about Kumail, but as Razib said above, he is considered Indian in popular discourse (he’s probably Muhajir Indian ethnically).

      I don’t follow tabloid stuff but a quick google search doesn’t turn up anything serious about Amir Khan being “cucked” or cheated on or whatever. Regardless, dude is still seen as a “cool/dashing” popular figure.

      I disagree that all South Asians do poorly in the dating market. Indians do poorly. Punjabis do fine. Pakistanis who aren’t so religious/cultural that they restrict themselves to only Paki/Muslim women also do quite well.

      1. ” Punjabis have dissociated themselves from Indians to avoid this.”

        Hindu Punjabis don’t, Sikh punjabis i would say are evenly split.

    2. Warlock
      My Dad was stopped in supermarkets, book stores, Starbucks enough post 9/11 (doesn’t help his building came down with the WTC and he works right there) and asked routinely something along the lines of: “Why are you doing this to us? Why are your people doing this to us?”

      I have crossed the US many times in an old beat up car. That is including right after 9/11 (March 2002). Just once was stopped in Ohio by a cop, 2 minutes and I was gone. To be honest I had lengthier questioning in Sri Lanka.
      More to the point I was provided free accommodation etc in Ohio because my car broke down . A story I have said here, will repeat if asked.

      So, warlock I was working in downtown Manhattan, drove into Manhattan in the weekend and was never stepped.

      Does you dad look more like a terrorist than me. (I am 61 now).


      1. yes. But I don’t want to share his pic because of privacy.

        this was also mostly 2001-2005. things were different then. My sister is 6 years younger. Even in that time frame, Indian school kids’ rep as a whole improved within my own town. It was interesting to witness. Things are definitely better now.

        Americans also go off skin color proxy a ton. A light to even medium brown is what they imagine as terrorist color. You are dark brown, so you will be outside the scope and designated as an Indian.

        1. i lived in a liberal area in the early 2000s. i had a lot of people just start talking about iraq and how we were fucking things up randomly in public places. it took me a while to realize this was happening only to me and not my white friends/acquaintances.

          in the early 1990s when we’d speak bengali at supermarket ppl would tell us to stop speaking ‘iraqian.’ (very conservative area)

  13. https://www.narcity.com/gossip/these-three-hollywood-actors-are-all-being-mistaken-for-each-other-and-their-responses-are-hilarious

    Btw, Nanjiani, Kal Pen, an Kunal Nayyer all get mistaken for each other. They tweet about it and Sarah Silvermen has a hilarious response.

    Also just watched Chhapaak. It felt like a documentary. Very sad and hits you in the feels. But story could have gone more places. They tried to do too much between NGO story line and the court case story line.

    One thing that stuck out to me was after the acid attack, when the plastic surgeon asks the victim what type of nose she wants, he says the following

    “Would you like a long nose or sharp nose? [no response from her] “Say your preference! You don’t want to get stuck with a flat nose do you?”

    Ironically later in the movie there is an attack by upper caste men on lower caste women. Now, I know flat noses are found in both but the frequency I assume is quite different, insofar as flat noses appear to part of the phenotype of more AASI shifted groups and thus are likely associated with AASI ancestry. I found that attack and how it is condemned and the “flat nose” comment a bit hypocritical.

    But remember gang: “Nothing in S Asia makes sense, except in light of the Steppe:AASI ratio”
    Jai Shree Ameen

  14. You got to get better at lying man. All of the UK and Canada studies still show desis doing badly, and they are mostly Punjabis. Just stop it. Also, enough Paki men are religious on the surface, the vast majority actually. They still go out and try to do things while the women are seriously monitored at home. That’s how all of the rape gang shit was even possible with seemingly ultra religious Potohari Punjabi Pakistani men. All of your claims are easily falsifiable with empirical evidence.

    Your Pak Punjabi Sunni Nationalist Trollish Pakdefensoid tactics won’t work in an environment with even a modicum of logic.

    And most Punjabis associate with being Indian. I would know. I grew up in the most densely populated S Asian part of the West. A small but vocal fraction of Khalistanis don’t. Also, look up a picture of Jatt Agitation riots or Amritsar or Ludhiana in Punjab. Look at any of those areas. Look at Multan or Lahore. Lol, I as a Guju can pass fine on the streets there. Punjabi looks ain’t too different .They still visible brown like the rest of Indians, beyond the Nikki Haleyoid minority. Btw, the dear Raj is of Punjabi descent. Look that one up too Buddy. And women went wild over Dev Patel in Lion after he beefed up a bit. Just like Kumail did with some chemical help recently.

    Ain’t no one lying to themselves. Most Punjabi guys I know hang around Indian girls, strike out terribly on tinder like most Indian guys, blast Siddhu Moosewala, join the college bhangra dance team, drink too much whiskey every weekend, live in their local hookah lounge, and creep on brown girls via social media.

    Do you need some help with women or lifting? I can help you. You sound delusional. So I am assuming that doesn’t help with other parts of your life. I sincerely will help you acquire aesthetics and the type of relationship you want, whether casual or long term. I truly pity your current state. If you don’t have truth, you don’t have anything.

    Jai Shree Ameen

    1. “Just like Kumail did with some chemical help recently.”

      I dont get this. Do folks really find Kumail hot? I think its mostly hype.

  15. Amir Khan is an overrated glassjaw boxer who gets clowned against any serious opponent. Btw, most people don’t know him outside of the UK. So good job on that one. That is a convo for another day.

    It was Pakistanis who wore karas in rape gang cases of the UK. It is Pakistani taxi drivers who routinely claim to be Indian in NYC post 9/11. Who is trying to be who lmfao?

    And dude, I look like a medium brown skinned S Asian dude. I get asked by S Asians, if I am Indian or Pakistani enough. But enough non S Asians even think I could be middle eastern. My family has dealt with a ton of that shit. My dad has faced enough profiling for it. Don’t act like turbaned Sikhs are the only ones who have gone through that shit. You talk a lot of straight up trash. You haven’t gone through the experiences of everyone else. You have 0 empirical evidence on this point. You are wrong on all levels. But that’s the pattern for you today.

    Sigh. So sad. When will you start realizing the truth…

    Jai Shree Ameen

    1. Amir Khan is from janjua rajput clan. This clan “claims” to be descendant of Arjuna of Mahabharata fame

    1. This whole Indian vs. Pakistani men thing is the stupidist conversation I’ve seen in a while. Seriously you guys don’t have better things to talk about?

      You brought up cousin marriage as an example of “incest” while ignoring that culturally it is perfectly acceptable and in fact encouraged. Marrying your first-cousin is not considered incestuous in Islam. Also, marriage within cousins keeps inheritance and land within the family. I would not personally marry my cousins, but then I have been brought up in a Westernized environment where this is considered strange. But you have to consider different cultural notions of what is “incestuous” or not.

      Muhajirs are not “Indian”. “Indian” is a nationality, not an ethnicity.

      1. This whole Indian vs. Pakistani men thing is the stupidist conversation I’ve seen in a while. Seriously you guys don’t have better things to talk about?

        kabir is right.

        that is all.

          1. Actually, too fun to resist roasting the king of fallacies. Wrong at every turn, yet steadfast. Loyal to his propaganda at all costs and married to his delusion. He sounds like he would make a suicide bomber

      2. That’s true. I should respect the cultural choices of INDThings to marry his mom’s sister’s daughter. It will be good for him. He can then talk about how he did it to stay faithful to his roots and go on Pakdefense 10 years later and talk cough
        about all of the foursomes and hot tub orgies he had but discovered Islam afterwards, so out of respect for his local Mullah’s and family’s wishes he married his cousin. It is to preserve the precious Punjabi Steppe Scythian player blood.

        And lol at me not understanding stats. You disproved nothing. Indian men and women are plenty married in the US. Single Indian ones can get arranged easily. Yet their intermarriage rates are higher than Indian women (something you lied ablut) and higher than Pak (something you lied about again).

        And lol Pakis love being in S Asian frats. They do some good beef and pork hazing at Rutgers I hear. The bacha bazis must feel right at home with the elephant walk. They hang with Indians a ton. But omay sure Punjabis are special. Yawn. Go back to your hole.

        1. Actually the preferred form of cousin marriage would usually involve marrying one’s father’s brother’s daughter. It is the father’s family that is considered your true family for purposes of inheritance and property transactions.

          When a woman is married, she is considered to belong to her husband’s family.

          A big deal is made about Bilawal Zardari adding “Bhutto” to his name after his mother was assassinated. Obviously, his maternal grandfather’s name has much more political cachet than his father’s. It is precisely for this reason that Benazir was never known as “Benazir Zardari”. Yet, a lot of people made the point that Bilawal is not a true Bhutto. Of course, I think all this is ridiculously patriarchal, but that is how things work in Pakistan.

          Another example is Mrs. Maryam Safdar insisting on being called Maryam Nawaz Sharif.

  16. There was no logical banter regardless. It was just a clown responding to actual arguments with “Punjabis da best. Pakis da best. UK cousins. America. Indians ugly. Terrorists sexy. Your facts don’t matter….” nonsense

    “Don’t argue with stupid people. They bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

    Btw, for shits and giggles Kumail is Sindhi. But good job disowning him for “Indian appearance” General Yaya Khan.

    And you respond to none of the facts. Also, fine Hassan Mihnaj for your good looking Indian non Punjabi. There you go. Does he not count because he is Muslim? Lol gotta love the preempt of your idiocy

    1. I didn’t start this dumb convo for the record. Warlock with the familiar Indian chip on his shoulder of, “Pakistanis think they are so great, but they aren’t” started it with his bizarre first comment on this thread.

      As far as “facts”, this is a convo on perception, so there isn’t much that can be cited. The only objective thing that has been cited, shows that indeed Pakistanis, like Whites and Blacks, exhibit greater male coupling than female, indicative of greater sexual success. Indians exhibit the pattern of female > male coupling, like East-Asians, which indicates poor sexual success (for males).

      The rest has been just childish mudslinging (that I admittedly got drawn into). Warlock seems to think hiding behind Punjabis (who take it as an insult to be called Indian) is a winning point. He also seems to think dissing Kumail, who is (likely) an Indian Muhajir from Karachi, is a winning point.

      I think those who obsess about Pakistani sexual prowess on PakDefence are losers who need to live vicariously through their fictions exactly because they can’t get girls in real life. I think Indians like you who spend their time doing the same (only instead pretending Pakistanis are somehow worse than Indians lol) are similar.

      1. You keep peddling the same falsehoods lol. Once again, all empirical evidence denies your reality. Male coupling differential lmfao. Nice buzzword. Facts show Indian men marry out more by a lot. What more do you want? are you counting the Bradford girls? then you might win

        Lmfao hide behind Punjabis. Dude I have taught enough Punjabis whose only hot nights were with a bottle of Jameson and a hookah pipe how to talk to girls. So please. Show me all these magical players. And kumail is Sindhi. But you are too goofy to use google. You keep repeating the same lies with no evidence. Jeez at first thought you were just brainwashed. Now, I think you are borderline illiterate too.

        1. Seriously people, this whole back and forth is really juvenile and borderline misogynistic.

          As far as who is “sexier”, to most White people Indians and Pakistanis look the same. A political border that is only about 70 years old does not change people’s race, ethnicity, etc.

        2. Its interesting to note the dynamics in this discussion. You have attempted to use a number of ethnic/racial slurs against Pakistanis here. Topics ranging from rape, male-rape, incest, etc.

          I haven’t used a single one against you or Indians. This in itself reveals the dynamics at play (that you are trying desperately to deny). Its very common (and accepted) for the fat girl to make fun of the fit girl for being too skinny, or the short guy joking about the tall guy having trouble on airplanes. But its considered bad form for the reverse to occur, and I think for good reason. Nobody likes punching down, you look like a jerk, and ultimately feel bad.

          Regarding the statistics, if you still don’t understand why its important to distinguish between outmarriage of Indians, and outmarriage of married Indians, I can’t help you.

          Regarding Kumail, there’s no source that says he’s Sindhi. It only says he’s from Karachi (a city like 7% Sindhi), and so some pages label him Sindhi because Karachi is in Sindh. But he’s probably Muhajir Indian.

          1. Outmarriage rate of Indians vs, out marriage rate of married Indians is not relevant. It actually hurts your point further.
            Regardless,do you have statistics on the prior. Do you have them comparing to Pakistanis? Or are you going on your random assumptions rant again. Again, show data for your assumptions. You seem to enjoy repeating the same baseless nonsense. Indians are mostly married in the West. But let’s take it further. For other races, undesireable men have no options. They don’t get married. For Indians they go back home and get an arranged marriage. So if anything, that depresses the interracial marriage rates. Even given that depression, Indians men still outmarry at higher rates than Pakistani men.

            That’s ironic since you admitted to partaking in “mudslinging” earlier yourself. Brilliant work sensei. Also, this whole thing would be dreadfully boring without some fun. My “insults” are to the point of parody proportions. You don’t know how to take a sardonic hint.

            Alas, you neither contend with my intuitive argumentation nor the empirical evidence. You also chose now not to even have fun with the convo. This is neither cerebrally nor viscerally entertaining. I am done. Good night.

          2. I agree thewarlock has made a lot of racially and religiously offensive comments. I don’t know why you keep engaging with him.

            “Muhajir Indians”– Muhajirs are not Indian. Indian is a nationality. Muhajirs are Pakistanis who happen to be from the Muslim-minority provinces of British India.

            Kumail is apparently from a Shia family. I don’t know of a lot of Sindhi Shia, but perhaps some exist.

  17. Yeah Pak women outmarrying makes every other group look shameful. You know why? Repressive culture majorly. They have way way lower outmarry rates than everyone. So of course Pak men will look great. Women are all promised to cousins and don’t rebel. (Hypothetical Pak) 8% vs. 2% (male vs. female) looks like a lot compared to (Indian) 16% vs. 14%. But hey the latter group still does twice as well. We don’t know why. But they do. Wait though, THE DIFFERENTIAL. Eureka! I guess Pak men are sex gods.

    The reality is Pak women have to be very restricted compared to other women because women from pretty much all cultures marry out more. The issue isn’t Pak men are studs like Black men who just outdo the women of their groups just from shear desirability. I mean maybe you can argue that point. Pak men do so much better because Pak women can’t do shit because they are way less desirable than the men. Or there are  restrictions. Pak men will of course have a great success differential. 
    You really think if Pak women were fully liberalized their rates would be so low and so much lower than Pak men. Your argument relies on a nonsensical premise.
    But I guess all the stats are skewed by the martial steppe aryan scythian Punjabis, the South Asian ubermensch. We have the stratify the data or it just doesn’t count.

    1. Apparently, there is some confusion about the Bhuttos’ sect. The Wikipedia article you linked says that they are Sunni.

      And a little googling found this:

      “In her autobiography, Benazir Bhutto stated that, although the rest of the Bhutto family was Sunni, her mother, Begum Nusrat, was a Shia Muslim of Iranian origin (Bhutto 1988, p. 32; Business Line 29 Aug. 1997). The autobiography further states that it was her mother who taught her the “rituals of prayer,” although it does not specify whether Bhutto considers herself to be a Shia or a Sunni (ibid. p. 31).”

      Given that she was the Prime Minister of a Sunni majority state, I doubt very much that Benazir would have publicly called herself a Shia. I could be wrong though. Also, in Islam you are traditionally supposed to follow your father’s sect. So if ZAB was Sunni then BB was also technically Sunni.

      1. she married a ‘baloch-sindhi’ whatever that means who was shia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asif_Ali_Zardari

        20% of pakistanis are shia. why are you so surprised that a sindhi could be shia? are they all mohajjir?

        the bhuttos have long been obscure about their religion cuz it’s a sunni country. your ignorance isn’t surprising, and that’s the plan. here is more talk about benazir’s father, who is the son of a shia man and a hindu-converted-to-islam https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Zulfikar_Ali_Bhutto

        (there’s a reason they don’t emphasize their biography)

        here is a google books entry which talks about how benazir obsfucated and recast herself in the 1990s https://books.google.com/books?id=vLwOck15eboC&pg=PA35&dq=Zulfikar+Ali+Bhutto+shia&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjEo4mCr4DnAhWUtp4KHen2Ci0Q6AEwAXoECAIQAg#v=onepage&q=Zulfikar%20Ali%20Bhutto%20shia&f=false

        more on bhutto family obfuscation https://books.google.com/books?id=VjduDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT110&dq=Bhutto+family+shia+sunni&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiRscG3r4DnAhUCNn0KHbRlAFsQ6AEwAnoECAQQAg#v=onepage&q=Bhutto%20family%20shia%20sunni&f=false

        1. your skepticism about shia in pakistan remains me of ikram saed shocked and disbelieving that 20% of turkish citizens are shia-adjacent (now more shia-identified than before) alevis. basically these shia groups under sunni domination have made taqiyah a way of life so that sunni muslims don’t even realize they exist in their midst. the lack of awareness and moderate incredulity is a testament to their skills.

          1. I am well aware that 10-20% of Pakistani Muslims are Shia. I was just pointing out conflicting reports about the Bhutto family. It is my impression though that Punjabis and Sindhis tend to be Sunni. Pathans are almost all Sunni. In contrast people from Gilgit-Baltistan are Shia (Ismaili).

            It is understandable though that even if the Bhuttos were Shia, they would de-emphasize that. Pakistan has increasingly become a Sunni majoritarian country. Many people don’t even know that the founding father was himself a Shia. If I recall correctly, even as early as 1948 when Jinnah died, the State gave him a Sunni funeral.

            I didn’t know that Benazir’s grandmother was a Hindu. So thanks for that.

  18. reading Being Different: An Indian Challenge to Western Universalism. cogent analysis. otoh, lots of small historical errors, especially about western history/culture. a few errors could be matters of interpretation, but a lot are simply misunderstandings/omissions (e.g., totally misunderstands how constrained ‘sin’ in ‘judeo-christian’ thought as opposed to how it’s portrayed in *western* christianity [augustinian christian]).

  19. one thing: the author of *being different* has spent most of his adult life in the USA. a lot of the stuff attributed to the ‘west’ seem most relevant to american culture (not all), not ‘western’ culture broad. it’s an interesting observation.

  20. Something I’ve noticed about out-marriage among SA male muslims in general is that once a guy becomes very liberal/cosmopolitan, the pool of available muslim women matching his aspirations dwindles. This happens both in India and in the West. Something similar happens among hindus from less cosmopolitan castes. If you are successful and socially adept from a peasant caste and move in sophisticated circles, you will be shopped around avidly for marriage by relatives, but the chances that you end up with a partner from one of the the more urban professional communities shoots up.
    Another element in the male muslim out-marriage scenario seems to be that marrying and assimilating a non-muslim is viewed quite positively because religion > culture. Among hindus, the foreign bahu going hindu is a cute curiosity but deep down, because we are so ethnocentric, it feels like the culture is getting diluted. So intermarriage is good only when the child is marrying up status noticeably.

    1. dilution happens when you are a small minority. it’s natural.

      my parents have 4 children but will likely never have any muslim grandchildren (the only religious children they have are devout buddhists).

      1. I am assuming that at present majority western people have some dislike for muslims…then why will western women date or marry a muslim man specially if he is brown and south asian looking?(Hollywood stereotyped muslim terrorists look south asian).
        I am curious

        1. Jemima Goldsmith married Imran Khan and even converted to Islam. So that’s one counter-example.

        2. Most don’t. But it is changing. People who are just nominally of a faith have a much easier time having broad appeal, especially in liberal areas.

          Majority of people, even in the West, marry within their group and date within their group. But people in the new generation are more open to not doing so.

          I also agree with the religion vs. culture point. Hindus are ethnocentric and so are Pakistanis but religion matters a ton to Pakistanis, at least on face. Hindu is more of an ethnic label to many.

          So many Pakistanis consider it a “win” to convert someone of another group. Women of course are not as encouraged to go out and experiment to “win” like this. Men are superficially discouraged but have immense tacit approval in some circles, even by their Imam directly, if they do win. The stories of cash prizes are rare. It is a softer more nudging approval.

          I have also seen liberal Muslims go back to conservative islam at higher rates than other groups. But that is pure anecdote. Intuitively it makes sense though. A faith where you are the boss rather than a more egalitarian model makes a lot of sense to many men who want more power in home life. Hindus would do it too but their ideological infrastructure and support system for indoctrination is just weaker.

          Anyway, all of this is changing. People as a whole are becoming less religious and more open in the West. All of the race talk was a lot of fun but juvenile last night. Hopefully, it entertained 😉

          Indthings, no hate my puther

      2. taking my life as an example, my parents may have no grandchildren who speak their language with any competence. they are somewhat religious, but whether their grandchildren actually believe in the deities isn’t their concern, as long as they show adequate respect. I think they would feel more disappointed if my kids were to have western names.

  21. do you know the difference between ‘majority’ and ‘everyone’?

    also, though most non-muslims would not imagine dating an observant muslim (an observant muslim would usually not want to date, let alone date a non-muslim), if you are a beer-drinking muslim it’s not as much of an issue. lots of american muslims view their religion like american methodists view their religion.

  22. The comment section has gotten quite heated since I checked it the last time around.

    Regarding the Pakistani image in the UK during the 1970s, I have already made a post about it and thought that it would clear things up. Pakistan was an American/western ‘ally’ during the cold war while Indians were neutral on paper, though more leaning towards Soviets. So its obvious to see why the western ally would be dignified while the borderline Soviet allies would be presented in a relatively bad light.
    But of course, Pakistan isn’t an ally anymore, so their image has suffered because of this. While India has moved closer to the western sphere and as such the image has improved in comparison to the 1970s.

    1. “racist jat troll keeps leaving comments i put in spam.”
      Steppe is connected to sadism,bullying,violence etc.

      BTW Pakistanis are sky people except those low caste ppl from Lahore

  23. More genetic evidence for OIT

    “First archaeologically based map of the dispersal of the RigVedic hump backed bull pattern throughout the Ancient East proving the origin of the Indo-Aryans in the Sindhu (Indus) Valley and the migration of the Indo-Aryan and other Indo-European tribes out of the South Asia.”


  24. Gray langur Semnopithecus or “Hanuman langur” paintings (1600 BCE) found in the Aegean add to the OIT evidence!



    “However, Hanuman langurs, which weigh a more substantial 11kg to 18kg, have a similar look. They also move quite differently, and this was crucial to the identification.”

    “We know from archaeological evidence that Aegean peoples had access to minerals such as tin, lapis lazuli and carnelian that came from beyond the Zagros mountains on the western border of modern Iran. But the artistic detail of the Akrotiri paintings, compared to other monkey art of the period, suggests that the artists had seen live animals, perhaps while travelling abroad.”

    Links courtesy of Niraj Rai

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