I think when we started the Brown Pundits Browncast we planned a ~1 time a week affair. As it happens it’s not that regular. The Browncast will be gone for 3 weeks, and then come back every other day for a week. Really you should subscribe at one of the options (just click the link in the strip above the latest podcast).
If you want to hear the podcasts early, please become a Patron. I do post them early. Sometimes hours. Sometimes days. Now and then weeks. And on an occasion here and there months. There is also a podcast you can’t hear unless you are a patron since the person interviewed was up for a government position, and they thought it would be best to remove all public opinions for the moment.
The open threads are getting super long, and I will try some non-WP option at some point. Also something with a killfile. I’m pretty relaxed on censorship with the open threads…but at some point, the nastiness is going to turn people off.
I am frustrated by the historical ignorance of many readers of this weblog and “India” Twitter. So a question, if there are three history books someone should read on the West, India, and China, what would they be? I have plenty of suggestions but I’m wondering what the reader would say.
I’m not going to post a separate show notes episode for Kushal Mehra and myself talking about caste, but it’s up.
Hmm, I haven’t read much about India, but the last two books I read were the following. Aside from Keay, you’re probably not going to find a good survey that’s not wholly ideological (eg Guha).
—
– Mughal Warfare
– War and Peace in Modern India
Regarding the West, I’m more well-read on this. I will leave it to only America for now, I would start with Herring’s “From Colony to Superpower,” it’s probably the best one-volume history of American diplomatic/military history there is (read it in college, long ago.)
Alright, here is an attempt at checking the opinion here regarding pre historic south Asia.
https://strawpoll.com/2czc3ke8c
This will close in 3 days and results will be visible once it is closed.
The poll will be closed in a few more hours, so if you haven’t voted yet, but wish to do so then this is the last chance.
check out some of the quote-RTs and replies: https://twitter.com/razibkhan/status/1289057682452647936
i know believe kabir is 100% hindu!!!
Please stop taking my name in vain.
I am not and have never been “Hindu”. I was born into a Muslim family, thanks to Allah.
you pray to allah during the day
but we all know in your dreams you are durga-puja 365 days per year.
God forbid. I will never abandon the true God for idol worship.
If you want me to go away stop taking my name all the time in this passive-aggressive fashion.
idol worship? met think the kufar doth protest too much!
tawhid in the streets, but so much shirk in the sheets kabir…the lord on high knows you bow low before kali queen of skulls!
I will never bow to anyone except the one true God: Allah.
Calling a Pakistani Muslim “Hindu” is extremely insulting.
Shit Kabir I didn’t know you were a Hindu. That’s so cool. We ought to do something for Diwali together this year.
I don’t worship idols.
As for Diwali, the greatest Indo-Islamic Dynasty (the Mughals) used to celebrate it. I have no problem with wishing people well on their celebrations. But that doesn’t change the fact that I was born a Muslim and will die a Muslim. Leaving Islam is probably the worst sin a Muslim can commit.
\Leaving Islam is probably the worst sin a Muslim can commit.\
Yes in the eyes of Muslim; but the very fact that you have left Islam means within your conscience you are clear and you have committed nothing objectioanable or in the eyes of non Muslims (majority of mankind) you have committed no sin. The latter may heave a sigh of relief.
BTW, it is curious you bring the Christian idea of sin for leaving Islam ; I thought apostacy is matter of treason against Umma and sharia; that is the reason why it invited the wrath of Muslims.
I thought in Christainm scoeity sin and sinners may be punished by god – but society and laws are more lax
Kabir says he doesnt worship Idols.
I ask, what is that phallic Black meteorite you Moslems bow and pray towards on a daily basis? And why do you lick this phallic black stone while on pilgrimage in Mecca? Perhaps the homophobia we see in Moslem countries is actually a sign of a hidden/latent fascination for the phallus/BBC. That African blood from the slave trade certainly made its mark. No harm, I say indulge your fantasies. But let the Arab women have their fun too. I’d love to see more Kanye West-esque couples except with Arab Muslim women in tow. They need BBC too.
Not only did they celebrate Diwali, they were such Ram bhakts that they destroyed most of the temples in Ayodhya.
It is a historical fact that the Mughals celebrated Diwali and Holi. There are plenty of illustrations to prove it.
But please feel free to continue with your Hindutva history.
You should thank the Fire god for saving your ancestors from Ghazi’s.
If you are addressing me, my paternal ancestors were from Iran, thanks very much.
Yes, If you are thanking your ancestors, then you should thank the Fire God for keeping them alive from the Islamic invaders. Who knows, they might’ve been Christians/Jews also.
All that matters to me is that they were Muslim. Even if they were originally Christians or Jews, Christians and Jews are “people of the book” and worship the one true God. They are not idoloters.
If I may ask, where does your gratitude stop? The generation that converted under sword?
You have no idea why my ancestors may have converted to Islam (neither do I). The only relevant factor for me is that we have been Muslim for hundreds of years.
If you go by how Islam was spread across different parts of the world, Persia wouldn’t have been any different. Iran was a major polity for quite some time, so if a well read, culturally superior population (To Arabs) can get completely converted in a 200 years with out force, that would indeed be a miracle.
they keep calling me SULLA!!!
how awesome is that?
Wait till they call you Ka€€€.
It was truly hilarious.
There was that guy srikiant krsn… Who is A rare supporter of AMT who also seemed agitated. I have seen his blog – lot of stuff over there. He might make a good guest for brown cAST.
Btw hindutva twitter too serious n angry to get jokes on them. Hope they change over time.
West- From Dawn to Decadence by Jacques Barzun.
India- India Through the Ages by Jadunath Sarkar.
China – A new history by Fairbank and Goldman
cool. i’ve read 1st and last. not sure if they are comprable. will check out sarkar (my mom’s side is sarkar!!!)
For ancient history I rely on Upinder Singh’s books. Find them the least ideological. Her latest on political violence in ancient India is also very well written. Lot of textual information on Ancient India – Hindu and Buddhist thought. The textbook of Indian history by her is also a good read though very textbook like.
Aa I mentioned earlier in some open thread I am also looking to read up Sarkar and other RW historians.
I like Guha’s books on modern history though I can see some bias from time to time. Meaning to read Meenakshi Jain/Shourie and Sitaram goel too.
Recently also read the Gita Press and Making of Hindu Rashtra by Akshaya Mukul. Extremely interesting book which gets slightly repitative towards the end. But an eye opener for the uncelebrated (Heroes or Villiansn as per ones preference). Whatever be one’s preference Potdar comes across as a extremely fascinating individual.
Gaurav, also check out A Prehistory of Hinduism by Manu Devadevan. For China read, China’s Cosmopolitan Empire: The Tang Dynasty by Mark Edward Lewis, about so called “golden age ” of China.
Curious, I’ve mentioned “a prehistory of hinduism” on this forum before. I feel like it would add a lot to the conversations here because it offers an addition theses on the genesis of hindu identity beyond usually stated options. How compelling was it for you?
I remembered reading the author interview
https://www.thehindu.com/society/history-and-culture/the-temple-was-not-a-vedic-institution-manu-v-devadevan/article26149218.ece
“Your comments on the brouhaha over Jack Dorsey holding up a placard saying ‘Smash Brahminical Patriarchy’?
I find such slogans very interesting for a rather bizarre reason. They embody a strange contradiction as it were, for they occur as value-loaded expressions even when they are semantically hollow. The word ‘Brahminical’ is reduced to a porous signifier that can contain anything and everything that a progressive mind abhors. It is in this sense similar to the shallow ways in which terms such as ‘feudal’ and ‘medieval’ are used as adjectives for anything that is authoritarian and undemocratic. Ask the placard holders what ‘Brahminical’ means, and you will either face an outburst of reactionary self-righteousness, or be accused of affiliations with Hindu fundamentalists. The more sober among the placard holders may present you with a poor summary of the Manusmriti and a poorer assessment of its advocates, as if there are people in India whose lives are modelled after the Manusmriti to the last letter. The time is perhaps ripe now for us to admit that progressive movements in India have not only used the word ‘Brahminical’ with little sense of awareness or discretion, but have dogmatised it beyond redemption, even by the standards of mediocre political rhetoric.“
couldn’t agree more –
As if with a swish of wand we remove Brahminism patriarchy will be gone ?
One more tragedy with the use of these words is the average person doesn’t really get these labels. As if there is a definition somewhere in primary education on Brahmanism.
And in general, wrt sexism/patriarchy – I often think it works both ways – culture -> Religion and Religion->culture.
Brahminism like many other reified concepts becomes more useless the more removed one is from the original context..It leads to this over-projection of qualities. For example, theres plenty and more patriarchy in shudra culture, and yet the woke diaspora romanticizes the idea that it could only be an imposition by brahminic hegemony. Its sort of inconvenient to discover then that brahmins, holding many other factors equal, often give great freedom to their daughters that I don’t see to the same degree in my community. That said, i do think there is an overcompensation by many hindnat types to treat the concept as illegitimate altogether. It might be in want of a renaming, but the concept need not be so negatively charged, and is quite useful.
@girmit
Very compelling, I enjoyed that he finds a sensible middle ground between the often ridiculous antiquity attributed to Hindu religion and equally absurd ideas that Hinduism was invented by the British in the 19th century. I learned a lot. You seem to have good taste in books. Do you have a good reads list or record of books you recommend on these topics? We can also connect over email or social media
So, with all the talk on racism/colonialism, it brings to mind one of my favourite films:
“The Party”
Yes Peter Sellers is in brownface, and yes it is incredibly offensive (by today’s standards), but I find it hilarious. He gets down all the mannerisms of an Indian Uncle perfectly, including repeating something they find phonetically entertaining (birdy num num).
Any thoughts?
India twitter is pretty bad… even worse than American twitter and that’s saying something.
I recently read William Dalrymple’s The Anarchy which I thought was a fantastic book. I know a lot of people hate on him, but its excellent insight into the events which led to the takeover by the East India Company.
https://kabiraltaf.wordpress.com/2020/03/15/book-review-william-dalrymples-the-anarchy-the-relentless-rise-of-the-east-india-company/
Kabir’s short biography from his personal website:
“I am a Pakistani-American writer and musician. I hold a B.A. Degree from The George Washington University, where I Majored in Dramatic Literature and Minored in Western Classical Music (Voice). I have also studied Hindustani (North Indian) Classical Vocal from an early age. During my undergrad education, I also spent two years in Pakistan, where I studied Literature and Social Sciences–including Anthropology and Philosophy. Currently, I am based in Lahore and am teaching a course on the History of South Asian Music at one of Pakistan’s premier universities.”
Samples of my singing can be heard at https://soundcloud.com/kaltaf86.”
I thought you said you had a Master’s degree in Hindustani Classical Music Kabir? I don’t see that listed here. Did you forget to lie about it here? Also, your singing sucks donkey balls. I’d rather hear my dog bark than listen to that cacophonus BS.
This is just nasty for no good reason. Razib takes shots at him, but it is also his blog, his rules. If everybody talks trash like this, then it’s game over for any kind of good faith conversation. I would say the same if someone trashed you in an intensely personal way. Please reconsider your tone, there are very few south-asian spaces online that haven’t devolved into hostile drive-by trolling as the only way of expression.
Thanks girmit. These kinds of personal attacks are not on. This dude has actually posted my personal face pictures somewhere online (that’s in a comment in moderation). That’s completely unacceptable and I would ask that they be taken down immediately.
I’m not the only person he’s gone after like this. He did the same to warlock as well. Clearly, the dude has some issues.
yeah, i agree with this. chill out a bit APthk. making fun of kabir’s pomposity is fine, but don’t engage in serious slurring.
Dude, not done, and not cool.
There’s a big difference between teasing or good-natured ribbing/trolling, and this sort of personal attack. Show some decency. Show some respect for the man’s truly legit accomplishments and achievements, and basic humanity when talking to people. Disagreement and disrespect are worlds apart.
@Kabir – we’re with you on this one.
Thank you.
@Kabir….you are accomplished!!
Thank you 🙂
I want to see some life on the podcast, can you invite any artist, like musicians experimenting with fusion music (for example, Indian Raga, etc.) or a fiction writer about Indian (S.A) diaspora in the US? Too much of politics and culture war going on without any “actual” culture.
Pakistan beat Afghans black and blue. This is pre-mediated bloodshed, what is going on here? Whats the point of this?
” Some of the most intense border clashes between Pakistan and Afghanistan in recent years left at least 15 civilians dead on the Afghan side on Thursday, officials said.
Afghanistan accused Pakistani forces of firing heavy artillery into civilian areas after protests by communities on both sides who were demanding the reopening of a nearby border crossing that Pakistan had closed to try to limit the spread of the coronavirus.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/31/world/asia/afghanistan-pakistan-border.html
You are presenting the Afghan side of the story. The Pakistani side is here:
“The Foreign Office said in a late evening statement that Pakistani troops had responded to firing by the Afghan forces. “Pakistani Force did not open fire first and responded in self-defence only,” the FO said, rejecting Afghan allegation of firing at the civilian population.
Information Minister Senator Shibli Faraz said certain people had tried to cross the Chaman border forcibly and at the same time gunshots were fired from the Afghan side. ”
https://www.dawn.com/news/1572241/islamabad-kabul-trade-charges-over-chaman-clash
Calling a Pakistani Muslim “Hindu” is extremely insulting.
so pakistanis must be extremely insulted whenever they are in iran or the arab world, because that’s what they see when they see the likes of you. it’s like that scene in annie hall when woody allen’s character imagines his gf’s family is seeing him as a hasidic jew. the arab looks at your hindu face and sees krishna dancing with the gopis.
your ancestral gods are within you, always winking out whenever you bow down before the semitic sky god you worship.
My father’s ancestors were from Iran in any case so the entire point you are making is totally irrelevant.
razib is doing ghar wapsi better than 99% of bhakts even though he’s being an edgelord/ironybro while at it.
Since someone (the usual anti-Pakistan troll) has already defamed Pakistan for this week, here’s something about the Hindu majoritarian hellhole called “India”.
“Man Accused Of Carrying Beef Attacked With Hammer In Gurgaon, Cops Watch”
https://www.ndtv.com/gurgaon-news/gurgaon-man-bashed-with-hammer-by-cow-vigilantes-as-cops-watch-2272290?amp=1
Eid Mubarak from the Hindu Rashtra.
I condemn the attack ( may he rest in peace) but I also see you always blowing the news out of proportion.
Everyone has equal rights in India.
Muslims for what I Have seen live around the Mosques and in Clustered societies (economic developement is necessary i think). The mewat region is absolutely backward and gangs run riots across the town. My father says they are
not resilient to change i.e schooling, way too political , massive fertility rates etc.
Things like killing, lynching happens because pf cocky youths(boys) and lawlessness and low level corruption.
You Will never know unless you spend some time here.
I think Kabir you are real Pakistani Nationalist and a real troller and believer in Islam.
the more you interact with Dumb types the more your hatred towards india will increase and I don’t want that to happen.
If you don’t see the significance of attacking a Muslim for supposedly carrying beef on Eid ul Azha, I can’t really help you.
“Everyone has equal rights in India”–I’d like to believe that, but with Hindu Hriday Samrat in charge it’s just not true anymore.
I don’t hate India, I hate Hindutva. There is a difference. I come from an extremely liberal Pakistani family. We have always looked up to Nehruvian Secular India and are deeply saddened to see it being destroyed daily. I have studied Hindustani classical music (including bhajans). Not exactly an “Islamist” despite what people here would like to think.
I have been to India when I was much younger (Delhi and Agra). My dadi’s relatives still live in her ancestral home in Agra. Unfortunately, Hindu Hriday Samrat is not going to give Pakistanis (even those of us who are foreign citizens) visas.
I wonder what would happen if I slaughtered a Pig in public and carried some Pork meat with me in a basket in a busy market in Karachi or Lahore, all the while wearing a shirt that says “Om” on it while wearing the sacred threads on my wrist. Maybe they will garland me… with a grenade necklace.
Ah yes, hypothetical whataboutery. Learn better argumentation “White passing” troll. Go back to school.
India is a SECULAR state. Pakistan is an ISLAMIC Republic. If you think beating someone with a hammer on SUSPICION of carrying beef is acceptable behavior in a SECULAR state, you have severe issues.
Oh really?
Some are of the opinion that it is actually a secular state or “semi-secular”.
Muhammad Ali Jinnah certainly espoused such views. Or Imran Khan for instance, who has indicated something along those lines in the past: “Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI) chairman Imran Khan on Thursday declared that “every Pakistani is equal by rights regardless of their religion” and that “state has no religion”.
In a photo post on his ‘verified’ Facebook account attributed to him, it was stated “every Pakistani is equal by rights regardless of their religion; state has no religion”.
Leaders of the center and center-left parties like MQM’s Altaf Hussain, PPP’s slain leader Benazir Bhutto and ANP leaders have all spoken in favour of secularism before but this is the first time that PTI chief has professed the idea of a secular state.”
Also, while religious hate crimes are certainly bad, I dont see how they prove that India as a whole is not a secular state. Some fine reasoning there. By that logic, I can claim that even the US is not a secular state, since it has suffered from a spate of religous hate crimes in the past decade, ranging from attacks on Sikhs to Jews to Muslims to Orthodox Christians to even Hindus:
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/statistics-on-religious-hate-crimes
https://www.cbsnews.com/video/religious-hate-crimes-are-on-the-rise-in-the-united-states/
Then again, why do I even bother replying to you. Oh right. I like proving just how knowledgeable you are. Please teach us more of your big-brained wisdom, oh wise one.
Clearly you know nothing about Imran Khan. He’s a right-wing born-again Muslim. PTI is a Right-wing Party.
The clue is in Pakistan’s name: The ISLAMIC REPUBLIC of Pakistan.
@Apthk
Why would Pakistani Muslims care about you carrying pork in public? They don’t think the pig is their mother like Hindus think about the cow, they don’t eat pig coz they think it’s unclean. So they might pity you for carrying the meat of an unclean animal but they wouldn’t lynch you lol.
Your attempts at even whataboutery are pathetic.
@Curious
Exactly. Muslims despise the pig. It has nothing to do with compassion for sentient creatures. Easy to mix up hate and love.
Maybe people have been frustrated with the application of Weird ” Pseudo Secularism” in India and corruption charges with dynastic tendency didn’t sit well with Indians( mostly hindus obviously) that’s why they voted for modi.
I was a NDTV watcher, Dhruv Rathee follower and not-anti but not-pro modi but after the behavior of the left with succumbing alternative speech and the worldwide left phenomena I stopped watching the Mainstream media full stop.
I have never heard Hindu Hriday Samrat before you said it.
Probably beacuse i don’t go Social Media often.
Are you @KabirAltaf?
Being frustrated with “pseudosecularism” (an extremely problematic Right Wing term) does not in any way justify beating a Muslim man with a hammer.
“Hindu Hriday Samrat” is what your PM’s followers call him. Google it.
Yes, you have learned my full name. Good for you.
I will never know what’s serious or what is trolling in all the Comments ( especially Kabir and Hoju).
Question Is Kabir @KabirAltaf?If you are then your ancestors are cleraly Iranian( dark hair pale skin). You should be proud of that.
https://www.outlookindia.com/magazine/story/india-news-wooing-the-hindu-divided-family/303500
“Steeped in the anti-god, anti-Brahmin and anti-Hindu philosophy of its ideological fountainhead Periyar and piloted for long by the Hindu-bashing M. Karunanidhi, the DMK endured a rough ride with the state’s Hindu majority. The party could remain one of the top two contenders thanks to its devoted vote bank and the absence of Hindu consolidation. It took full advantage of Hindus voting more on caste lines, and by swinging Muslims, Christians and a section of Dalits.”
Whatever her Faults Amma was a charismatic figure to us non Tamils, in way Stalin will never be.
Saurav, do you anticipate aidmk/bjp making inrodes or expected swing towards DMK in next assembly elections
DMK. I know my shit, man. It’s not for nothing I call them “less hindu” regions. ?
As someone who swings from Support to Hindutva to moderate opposition to it – I would be glad to have at least one huge state ruled by Anti-Hindutva forces for a semblance of balance.
BTW on a lighter note – It seems you are in deep disagreement with David Frawley and his ilk – they maintain that south of Deccan the true Hinduness increases (whatever that means).
My own belief was that politics in TN is not Hindu – but i will take your word for it .
//My own belief was that politics in TN is not Hindu – but i will take your word for it .
TN politics is a mixture of religion/caste, culture/language. What you see is a sort of a Us vs Them/minority complex that unites them. With religious conversions and minority vote consolidation, Hindus are also consolidating. They may/may not vote for BJP, as they are not the sole Hindu party and with their obsession over Sanskrit and cultural homogenous policies, they will never be one.
Also, any one that says there is no religion angle in TN, just go through the list of candidates, their caste and obviously their religion. Obviously an outsider would find it difficult to understand the caste dynamics, but for the last 40+ years that’s how elections are fought in TN, EVR’s so called self respect revolution not withstanding.
Why take my word for it? We could all listen to what politicians say in the south about Hinduism, half of the things which would end any politicians Carrier in the north. Even for the Dalit politicians of the north
And unlike commentators here, politicians know the pulse of the people. Because like their Carriers depend on it and they mostly mouth what their “people” want and think.
https://www.news18.com/news/politics/kamal-nath-to-host-hanuman-chalisa-recital-on-eve-of-ayodhya-temple-ceremony-2751385.html
☝️ exhibit an opposition North Indian politician
Less “Hindu”, LOL. Ok.
May be if it wasn’t for some one like Adi Shankarachrya, India would’ve been a Jain nation.
Jay, maybe we are less authentically hindu (culturally) in the same way that anglo-americans, who’ve done a lot of proselytisation globally, are less christian than say the greek or syrians orthodox for whom the traditions of the early church are probably more intelligible. If anglo-celtics have projected their individualism onto their faith via methodism and other reformist denominations, then perhaps aryanized dravidians, like shankara, took bhakti for ishtadevtas and vedanta advaita theology (that may have been partly inspired by the phenomena of “little” gods and shrine culture of the south), to rebut the nastika traditions. South indian hinduism is also more institutionalized than it is in the north at first glance. Acharyas/swamis vs random babas.
All I can say is , There is a real life state of South Indian Hinduism. And then there is the make believe state of BP commentators of South Indian Hinduism.
//All I can say is , There is a real life state of South Indian Hinduism. And then there is the make believe state of BP commentators of South Indian Hinduism.
Ha, make believe. As I said earlier, go back and look at the candidacies of the 2 major parties. The 3 major communities in TN (Vanniyars, Gounders and Thevars) with close to about 50-55% of the population strongly identify themselves with Hinduism and they are present in North, West, Central and Southern parts of the state. When JJ banned the animal offerings in the state, these communities openly and defiantly broke the law citing religious and cultural continuity. Just look at the number of temples in the TN, the majority of folks that go to both Tirupathi and Sabarimalai are from TN. Hindu consolidation is what making the DMK leaders pasting posters saying they are not against Hinduism but Brahmins. Such is politics in TN.
If I may ask, are you from TN? Lived there for any period of time? If you got no as an answer, then I might have a better grasp on the ground situation than you.
//Jay, maybe we are less authentically hindu (culturally) in the same way that anglo-americans,
Yes, in the eyes of the “I’m more authentic than you crowd” from the Gangetic belt. But then the South also has its cultural epicenters, so the inspiration need not just come from the Ganges, we could get it from Vaigai also.
Jay
At least other S-Indian folks (like Girmit,prats,Hoju) concede the fact in terms of politics, Hinduism casts a long shadow on N-India than it does in other parts of India . The dispute is if that can it be further attributed to “Hindu-ness” of a region, i believe so, but others disagree, thats fine.
But if ur contestation is that even S-Indian politics is even more Hindu than N-India, then perhaps we have to just agee to disagree. Because that’s view is just so outside the pale that not even the most fervent S-Indian Hindutva guy could claim that.
Saurav, I’m hardly a Hindutva guy, in fact, as an atheist I’m far from it.
There is a reason BJP is struggling in the south other than Karnataka. My basic contention is this – you cannot paint the same “Hindu politics” brush for the south with which you see the north. Whether its the Lingayats and Gowdas of Karnataka or the Vanniar/Gounder/Maravar combo in TN, all the power groups are unashamedly Hindu and they display it publicly from both ADMK and DMK. Lets just agree to disagree and move on.
@Saurav,
Maybe politicians of the South don’t have to be self-consciously Hindu because it is given?
What matters is caste politics and both Telugu states are ruled by reddys, even if one of them is Christian on paper. They participate in temple ceremonies, invite preachers of Hindu Puranas in the name of Telugu promotion because all older literature is also religious literature.
I don’t know how more Hinduism is measured because all northies I encountered have very little grasp on tradition even if they are high on Bhakti.
@Jay
I’m with you but it’s pointless. I don’t think he’s really open to a different understanding of the situation.
\ I call them “less hindu” regions. \
Saurav , Moar Hindu, can you tell why today 3/8 is important in Hindu calender?
upakarma. happy avani avittam 🙂
Yeah, perhaps periyar was the greatest hindu who ever lived.
@Hoju
Yes Upakarma for Yajurvedis- for Sama and Rg different days. I did it with the priest remotely .
Here is current reading list:
1. China – a history by John Keay (reading)
2. Adi Parva – Protop Chandra Roy (reading)
3. Shivaji – Jadunath Sarkar (read)
4. The Wonder That Was India (to read)
5. Klaus Bringmann – A History of the Roman Republic (to read)
6. History of Ancient and Early Medeival India – Upinder Singh (to read)
I especially keen to know what others will recommend for Indian and Western History.
“How Mormons Built the Next Silicon Valley While No One Was Looking”
https://marker.medium.com/how-mormons-built-the-next-silicon-valley-while-no-one-was-looking-c50add577478
Mormons seem like the Gujjus of America. No alcohol, family oriented, religious and business focussed.
Perhaps Mormons will save Christianity in the west.
Mormons probably have shittier food though. Shrikhand is good. So are Patras. Theplas, not so much.
Change your hyperlink on your Username.
Even more ironic is mormons building Las Vegas . They went their with all injuctions against gambling, and they made the gambling capital of the world
The Mormons didn’t build Las Vegas it was the Jews and the Italians (but mostly the Jews).
interesting story on india’s role in the global vaccine race.
http://archive.vn/kCXMW
Kabir, how much do you get paid for fighting with the Kafirs on this platform? Seriously, either you really believe in what you showcase here or you get paid for fighting constantly. I personally would like it if you’re doing this ‘shindig’ on this platform for getting paid by someone (organization), which means that the world is short of one more Islamic supremacist.
If the “kafirs” (your word not mine) would stop attacking Pakistan and/or Islam, I would stop commenting here.
“If the “kafirs” (your word not mine) would stop attacking Pakistan and/or Islam, I would stop commenting here.”
i dont get this part too. there are a million and a half websites on the internet where islam is attacked ritually every day. obviously you dont police them all. so why such an obsession with BP?
“The clue is in Pakistan’s name: The ISLAMIC REPUBLIC of Pakistan.”
kabir, the sum total of all your arguments is this – since pakistan calls itself ‘islamic” republic, it has a license to enact all sort of stone age laws and indulge in behavior repugnant to modern sensibilities.
this is akin to a criminal saying – hey, i admit i am a criminal, so now i have got a license to commit all sorts of crime.
if this is what it is, then of course it is a winning argument. no more questions. you win!
I hold Secular states to higher standards than religiously-based ones. I have repeatedly been extremely clear about this.
If India calls itself a “Hindu Rashtra”, I won’t complain no matter how many Muslims you all lynch.
Absolutely agree with Razib about u Kabir
When all you have is hammer everything you treat as a nail.
I have tried my utmost to be civil and engage with you.
If you are going to react to tweets where I am complimentary to your point but also make a larger point as if I am ignoring horrible lynchings or condoning them i tend to think about the advice some commentators had made of not engaging.
Seems utterely useless if you just ignore all nuance and just keep repeating asinine sentences to someone trying to engage with you
kabir is in fact a true brahmin: no original thoughts. only mantras! over and over and over.
He has been copy pasting same Mantras with Hindu Hriday Samrat or Islamic state of Pakistan or Nehruvian or secular state.
I bet he has repositories of different long form mantras to throw at digital heretics with 280 character versions for twitter.
Three books each, or three total?
I thought the Harvard History of Imperial China series was a great introduction. The first three books on the Qin/Han, post-Han interregnum, and the Tang are all by the same author, and form a nice set-piece together. And it stops just in time for the reader to switch over to Mote’s Imperial China: 900-1800, if they’re still interested. Of course, those three books don’t cover anywhere close to all of Chinese history, but early Chinese history is the biggest knowledge gap, and fixing that will fix most of the stupidity.
Some of this with Kabir might just be what he views as battles worth fighting. He think Pak is probably too far down Zia’s ideological islamist society rabbit hole. It isn’t worth so much angst and discussion.
But he views India’s slide towards Hindutuva as something that can be prevented from going further and even reversed. He yearns for the Nehruvian version of secularism that he probably saw in Indian society, all the way through the end of Manmohan Singh’s tenure.
It’s like you have two kids: one rebelled so hard that disciplining them anymore isn’t really worth it He or she is a lost cause. On the other hand, the other kid has been historically good but now has started to imitate his badly behaved sibling. You then are scared things will slide down a slippery slope to hell. So you put down the hammer on that kid.
People on the outside just view you as partial to the rebellious kid. The reality is that you might actually love the other kid more because at least you have not lost hope to the extent that you compromise your higher standards for them.
I actually think Kabir loves India more than he loves Pak.
That makes sense, I don’t begudgde him but to hammer on asinine sentences at people seriosuly engaging with you agreeing with you to the 95th percentile. But unless it’s 99.9 it’s not Kosher for him. After a time it just becomes frustrating then people will naturally abandon engagement and just keep on trolling
Just like SJWs in the West wrt to cancel culture
there are cases where ppl agree 100% with kabir but he misunderstands and FLIPS HIS SHIT.
the first time it’s funny. the 100th it’s just sad.
*shrug*
I actually think Kabir loves India more than he loves Pak.
cuz he’s a true hindu. the Muslim stuff is external only
I missed some comments here, so I don’t know why people are saying Kabir is a crypto Hindu.
But reminds me of the historical poet Kabir who was probably a crypto Hindu (nath yogi):
(Body) Tan: musalman…
(Mind) Man: hindu…
(Heart) Hriday: Bhagwan.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabir
**Trolling** **Busy people please ignore, nothing of value here**
Interesting to see how damp the response to the murder of a ‘blasphemy accused’ brown American by a Pakistani in a court house has been so far. What would have been the response from the USA if he was a white guy? sanctions? lobbing a few missiles? prisoner swap?
But yeh suvidha iss skin color pe uplabdh nahi hai.
(this facility is not available for brown US citizens)
Shameless worms will live in secular countries and continue approve of ‘punishment’ for Blasphemy. Sapole (baby cobras)! piss on you.
******
https://twitter.com/nailainayat/status/1289610171753398272
Islamist slogans are catchy
Nara-e-takbir la-laa-lu-lakabar
Pakistan ka matlab kya? La-lilla-la-lilal-laa!
and my favorite ‘Gustakh e rasool ki saza? sar tan se juda! sar tan se juda!’
Our slogans are lame in comparison.
******
btw Tim Berners-Lee is perhaps the greatest man of our times for having given us the opportunity to freely speak our minds, “fuck the schizophrenic pedo baddu”
Thank you! to everyone who made this technology possible and made it safe to blaspheme against the slaver-warlord and his cunt of a god.
Indian communists have catchy slogans:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QfAnDPa8164&t=24s
(With subtitles for non-Hindi speakers)
Even inspired Bollywood song
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4nCshJBODT4
Lal Salaam just rolls off the tongue.
https://theprint.in/india/for-kashmiri-pandits-azadi-slogans-are-bringing-back-a-three-decade-old-nightmare/350792/
*******
In JNU video Kanhaiya Kumar yells “Capitalism se aazadi!”
LoL! Imbeciles.
If for nothing else, JNU rocks for the high quality weed that can make someone say this.
Commies have got nothing on Ram Bhakt Ed Sheeran.
https://twitter.com/Being_Humor/status/933335431713886208
(Sorry, no subtitles)
Inquilab Zindabad
Vande Mataram
Jai Jawan, Jai Kisan
Dilli Chalo
Jai Hind
etc sound so lame
Mediocre but still catchy:
‘Tum Mujhe Khoon Do, main Tumhe Ajadi Doonga’
‘Ram Lala hum aayenge mandir wahin banayenge’
Best ever:
Tilak Taraju aur Talwar, maaro inko juute chaar.
The band Indian Ocean’s last album had a nice protest song sung by Shubha Mudgal.
‘Gar Ho Sake’
Shame that is doesn’t have a lot of views.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpnMb96w6Tc
“So a question, if there are three history books someone should read on the West, India, and China, what would they be?”
I have not read many books on the west and China so I would refrain from any recommendations.
For India, I would suggest everyone to peruse the NCERT text books for grades from 6th to 10th. They are available free online and are written in a very accessible manner.
They are published by the National Council of Education Research and Training and are standard across most of the country.
The value in reading these lies mainly in understanding how the lay middle to upper middle class Indian thinks about history.
https://www.ncertbooks.guru/ncert-history-book/
In addition, RS Sharma (ancient, medieval) and Bipan Chandra (modern, freedom movement) are authors that are extensively read by people preparing for the Civil Services exam conducted by the Union Public Services Commission (UPSC). The exam is used to recruit India’s higher bureaucracy.
This should give people a fair idea about how Indians view their history.
This then also makes it easier to situate the Marxist and Hindutva readings of history that one comes across on Twitter. And to understand why certain opinions are considered so beyond the pale.
I had a quick look at History for classes 6/7. There is nothing of OIT or AIT or anything which Hindutvavadis are accused of. In fact the history taught to young kids has not changed at all over many decades , from Jawaharlal Nehru’s time. There is talk nof language families in India, etc. Impressed, unless someone goes with a fine toothcomb thro all the volumes and disabuses my impression.
many years of Hindutva BJP prominence e has not changed history taught in schools
Just had a look at the Alexa rankings for this blog: the traffic stands at #355,022 internationally and #38,964 for India, that’s quite good actually. A few extra functions like bold, italics, underline and hyperlink could make the comment system more convenient to use and encourage greater engagement.
That also got me wondering, has part of the improvement in traffic rankings been due to the increase in comments on the past many posts? If that is so, then maybe it’s prudent to continue with having a few comments on each open thread be a flame war? Indirectly speaking, could the higher average viewership due to said arguments eventually result in a few potentially good commentators finding this blog every few weeks? Casting a wider net as they say.
Replace all the open closed parentheses with open and closed angle brackets (the triangular ones found on the same keys as comma and fullstop)
for underline type
(a) your text (\a)
for bold
(b) your text (\b)
for italics
(i) your text (\i)
To troll with extra likes change vpn and hit like.
Sorry made a mistake it is / not \
Here you go:
https://www.w3schools.com/html/html_formatting.asp
1. Markdown support would be good for text editing. Simple and universal.
2. One-third of the comments on the previous open thread were either by Kabir or in response to him.
Kabir is basically to BP what Trump is to Twitter.
https://theprint.in/opinion/letter-from-pakistan/become-an-instant-hero-in-pakistani-social-media-shoot-someone-to-save-islam/471108/
“This isn’t new in Pakistan. This has happened many times in the past — even before Partition. Take, for instance, the 1929 case of Ilm-ud-Din, an illiterate teenager who stabbed to death a Hindu publisher, Mahashe Rajpal, for releasing a book on the Prophet. Din believed that the book, which he hadn’t read, had hurt the religious sentiments of Muslims. His case was fought by Mohammad Ali Jinnah, and he was hanged to death. Poet Iqbal, while burying Din, tearfully said, “The educated people like us just could do nothing, while this carpenter’s son scored a point.” Today, there is a mausoleum for Din in Lahore and he is revered as a ghazi (warrior), shaheed (martyr) and a saint.
Despite all this, the Punjab assembly just passed a controversial bill to protect Islam. In the garb of religion, the idea is to curtail free thinking. Banning a hundred textbooks over photos of pigs in a maths question, banning maps showing Kashmir as part of India, or the wrong birthdates of Jinnah and Iqbal. Then there is a Punjab Assembly member who wants designer beards criminalised because it is a sin. And a possible ban on TikTok is always kept handy — a warning was recently issued to the Chinese app because its content was leading to “extremely negative effects”. Not too long ago, the PTI wanted a ban on the Japanese cartoon Doraemon. What did Doraemon ever do to the PTI?”
“banning maps showing Kashmir as part of India”– Hello pot calling kettle black! Have you ever seen Indian maps? They falsly show Muzaffarabad and Gilgit as “India” although those areas have never been part of “India” ever since that country was created. India even forces Google Maps to comply with Indian law and display these distorted maps.
Why should Pakistani children be taught from maps that show AJK as India? Naila Inayat writes in an Indian publication so of course trashing Pakistan is a requirement.
Some ramblings…
Just something of interest to the COVID-19 crowd. The drug Remdesivir is promising regarding the parameter of reducing length of hospital stay for critically ill COVID-19 patients, though not significant (approaching however) in the Hubei trial was in the the US REMDACTA trial. In the latter, the mortality benefit was close to reaching significance but the sample size was not sufficient (trending that way at least with upper limit of risk ratio at 1.04).
The proposed mechanism of action is viral RNA dependent- RNA polymerase chain terminator aka something that hinders viral replication. Therefore, viral load should, if the proposed mechanism is the one by which the drug is working, decrease faster in the Remdesivir vs. control patients. This was only sort of seen:
Hubei China Trial
“Viral load decreased over time similarly in both groups (figure 3A). No differences in viral load were observed when stratified by interval from symptom onset to start of study treatment (appendix p 10). In the subset of patients from whom expectorated sputa could be obtained (103 patients), the mean viral RNA load at enrolment was nearly 1-log higher in the remdesivir group than the placebo group at enrolment (figure 3B). When adjusted for baseline sputum viral load at enrolment, the remdesivir group showed no significant difference at day 5 from placebo, but a slightly more rapid decline in load (p=0·0672).”
Some thoughts on why this wasn’t seen strongly (basically why aren’t we seeing big drop in viral load, if the drug seems to have benefits clinically)
1. As the quote says from the trial (DOI 10.1016/S0140-6736(20)31022-9), at baseline there may have been a viral load difference between the remdesivir group and the placebo group by a full log, given that was what was observed in the 103 patients for which expectorated sputum (coughed up) could be obtained. For the rest, the baseline viral load was from nasopharyngeal swab. Granted, adjustments were made for this when making the final calculations for effect on viral load down the line. But ideally, this should be something that is stratified for moving on, when assigning treatment groups. The 103 patients may or may not be representative. But a full log difference between those groups with no difference seen in nasopharyngeal swabs is a bit suspect.
2. There was only a slightly more rapid decline seen in viral load between the rem vs. placebo in the Hubei Trial. But there was benefit (though not significant) in reducing hospital stay and mortality. Int he higher powered US trial (below), there was a significant improvement in hospital stay (11 days vs. 15 days). I wish viral load were used as a parameter in the REMDACTA trial. It would be interesting if the decline in viral load were quite modest or even non existent, yet clinical benefits were still seen.
REMDACTA Trial
“Preliminary results from the 1059 patients (538 assigned to remdesivir and 521 to placebo) with data available after randomization indicated that those who received remdesivir had a median recovery time of 11 days (95% confidence interval [CI], 9 to 12), as compared with 15 days (95% CI, 13 to 19) in those who received placebo (rate ratio for recovery, 1.32; 95% CI, 1.12 to 1.55; P<0.001). The Kaplan-Meier estimates of mortality by 14 days were 7.1% with remdesivir and 11.9% with placebo (hazard ratio for death, 0.70; 95% CI, 0.47 to 1.04). Serious adverse events were reported for 114 of the 541 patients in the remdesivir group who underwent randomization (21.1%) and 141 of the 522 patients in the placebo group who underwent randomization (27.0%)."
3. If basically the drug is supposed to work one way to result in benefits for the patient and the drug doesn't seem to be working that way ie. an agent that has shown clinical benefit and is proposed to impair a virus's replicative ability, yet it doesn't do that all that much at all, then there is likely a secondary mechanism at play. I wonder what they could be.
PMCID: PMC7202249 good for deeper dive into MOA
Good we r getting Robust data
Interesting time to be a new resident. Just happy there is enough PPE.
Corona patients are actually mostly dreadfully boring on an intellectual level. Right now few things beyond supportive care work and the management is mostly algorithmic based off of big wig decisions amd supply availability. Of course, their situation is tragic and I have tremendous empathy, given my mother was afflicted adds another layer as well (she is fine now). But the management is pretty redundant.
What seems to work, when it does, is corticosteroids later in the illness for reducing the body’s inflammatory response. Remdesivir works better earlier as does IL-6 inhibitor tocilizumab. Basically, I discussed above why there are some potential contradictions between the known MoA of the prior and its benefits. The latter is proposed to work by inhibiting an important signaling molecule in the body, IL-6, which enhances inflammation.
Inflammation is the process of transporting and recruiting the body’s defenses to areas it deems in trouble (areas afflicted by disease or injury). The end result no matter if the response is warranted or not, tissue injury via friendly fire or almost exclusive friendly fire, as in the case of auto immune disease.
Just anecdotally, some patients of mine who were super hard to wean of vents, got better pretty rapidly with the addition of steroids. Now was this just hapstance and they would have improved regardless? Maybe. But steroids have shown mortality benefit in preprint trial data. And anecdote increasingly supports their use.
https://twitter.com/IhsanTipu/status/1289242336837476355
“Thousands rallied on Friday in Peshawar to express solidarity with a man who killed Tahir Ahmad Naseem, an American citizen, accused of blasphemy inside a courtroom in Peshawar.”
(gif / video)
Pakistan, Bangladesh in ‘quiet’ diplomacy to ease decades of acrimony
https://www.arabnews.com/node/1713321/world
[enough trolling on kabir for now…well, perhaps if it’s a REALLY good troll]
we are at 150,000 downloads of the browncast. 70,000 USA. 30,000 india. 1,200 pakistan. 200 bangladesh. lol
So, I talked to my paternal grandfather (80+ years old) and I got to know names of his father, grandfather and great grandfather. Because my father’s side are commoners we don’t have records going much further. My mother’s side will have records going a lot further back and they also have a tradition to remember the names of all the ancestors once every year whenever they do a remembrance day for the most recently died family member. My father’s side doesn’t have any such sophisticated rituals although both the sides have a festival day to remember all the ancestors in general kinda like ancestral worship day.
In both sides of my family we have song of the ancestors, that is about how each generation of ancestors lived. Goes up about 10-12 generations in father’s side and about 6 in mother’s side. Some instances are quite funny. Talks about plague (I guess 1897 one) wiping out the entire clan with only one pregnant lady surviving, also a few lines about an ancestor who lost his wealth smoking pot, another one whose wife ran away, another one who was a wrestler, another one who was very honest, simple and was tricked into indentured servitude, another one who made pilgrimages to Jagannath, Rameshwaram, Puri and Uttarakhand. The pictures of the later ones i.e. my great grand father and great grand mother (paternal) are in the puja place to be prayed to everyday.
For some better off families I have heard there are family tree records kept by priests in Haridwar or Gaya. Mine might have one in Gaya because I remember being told that a large donation was made by my father for his great grand father’s peace in Gaya, let me find out.
When someone dies we (mother’s side) have a custom of singing a song on his/her death day. Usually a sub-caste of the Yadav caste (called Erra Golla in our area) in Northern Telangana was in charge of this tradition and they keep track of important events of a family that he is in charge of. When a person passes away from that family this person composes a song for them. They usually take a calf or cow as a payment for the service. Another way people remember the lineage is by writing the names with the local brahmin or matham (mutt). However only some castes had this privilege of keeping track of genealogy.
Yeah, I see this difference on father’s side and mother’s side too. I don’t even know my paternal grandma’s name.
My mother’s side has long history because they do it on thaddinam and very strict about it. Even I know my great-great grand father’s history on that side for both maternal grandparents. (One of the great great grand father apparently lost a court case under British rule and lost his riches, and so grandma had to slum it in the village lol)
Perhaps longevity and literacy on mother’s side kept the oral histories live. Maternal grandmother was proud of narrating the greatness of their family until she passed away at 85. Her family records are at local prominent temple where they are still in charge of annual procession.
My mother’s side also call it as “thaddinam”, are you a telugu tammudu?
Pakistan”s Ispr released a new song on the anniversary of article 370 removal
https://youtu.be/kyP4NQYQuEQ
lyrics and visuals are good quality. music sucks. sounds like a generic punjabi pop song. but overall an admirable effort. keep it up.
Meh.
What a waste of such great talent. Now he will never get to work in India. Atleast if the song sounded good it would have been a parting middle finger to India worth remembering.
But yes, keep it up.
Any good information on the overall impact of COVID on South Asian countries so far, not also health but also economic? Here’s a quick effort to compare the US to Europe. Contrary to the impression pressed by the US media about the absolute incompetence of the Trump administration, it may be that the US done better than Europe overall, at least so far in 2020:
“Dollars versus Death – Are US COVID Outcomes Better than Europe?” https://naimisha_forest.silvrback.com/death-versus-dollars
@Kabir, I haven’t read through this entire thread, or any of the recent threads at BP, but if you are worried about India becoming a Hindu Pakistan, so to speak, a state with an official religion, I don’t think that is the long-term future in India. Personally, I get the sense that the recent increase in anti-Muslim sentiment is Indians getting that “out of their system,” or redressing what they see as a special treatment. There’s a lot of suppressed rage and frustration directed towards Muslims in India, for a variety of historical reasons, but I have a feeling that after a few decades (or less) things will cool down.
India doesn’t aspire to be Pakistan, it aspires to be the next USA. And just like the USA is a secular nation with a predominantly Christian population, culture and outlook, India will probably become the same thing: a secular nation with a predominantly Hindu population, culture and outlook. What that means in practice is that there will be plently of Hinduism in government, just like lots of American politicians talk about Jesus, God, my personal savior, America’s God given mission, new Jerusalem/City on a Hill, etc. But Muslims are too big a percentage of the Indian population for them to be repressed forever. And other minorities are prominent enough in their own right, like Christians who seem to have a decent reputation in India, and Jains and Parsis who are disproportionately successful in business. Aspects of “secularism” will probably go away, like special treatment for Kashmir, or a different set of family laws for Muslims. But the USA doesn’t have that either, and I think you would agree that the USA is secular and a model for India to follow.
What will make things to cool down & how many divergent, divisive paths it can tread to in the meantime?
History of India has a repetitious pattern and only 1 thing has United it: Religion, first Gandhi’s pacifist, now Modi’s fascist. First could be rescued, second has a history of rooting it’s own self out.
Please don’t call that creep Gandhi Hindu. He brought in the Koran to Hindu temples, attacked Hindu patriots like Shivaji Maharaj, ate beef intentionally when he was younger, supported secularism (which is anti-Hindu), and was a pussy.
Advik,
Are you an internet personality spoof? If you are not, Gandhiji is highly respected in the east (Sanaathana Dharma). The east has thousands of sampradaayas. All are at least partly true in my view (Sarva Dharma). You may disagree with Gandhiji Sampradaaya and have your own. But Gandhiji’s Sampradaaya is part of Sanaathana Dharma.
On Islam:
What is your take on Shirdi Sai Nath, Kabir, Nund Rishi etc.?
I’m not an internet spoof. I am someone who sincerely believes Godse was a deshbhakt. In fact, I wish he came twenty years earlier then far less damage would have been done.
I don’t like it when Muslim men try and take part in Hindu rituals. I believe that male Hindus should control every part of Hinduism. However, I like how some Muslim women look so they are welcome to join if they take on male Hindu spouses.
don’t be a troll in an obligate fashion
I wasn’t trolling Razib sir I am someone who sincerely likes Godse.
The US would never allow a historic minority place of worship to be destroyed because of the beliefs of the majority. The US Supreme Court would never justify this crime and allow the majority to build their place of worship on the ruins of the minority place of worship.
In the US, members of a minority religion would never be lynched because of their dietary choices.
Comparing Hindu majoritarian India to a true secular state like the US is beyond ridiculous.
You people have no right to criticize India. Look at your own Islamic majoritarian shithole. Can’t even give people accused of blasphemy due process. There’s so many layers of horribleness to that I won’t even begin to unpack it.
I have repeatedly argued that it is only the State that has the right to punish people for Blasphemy and that too after following all due process.
Pakistan is not hypocritical. The clue is in the name: “ISLAMIC REPUBLIC of Pakistan”. We don’t pretend to be secular while acting as a Hindu Rashtra.
Those who are OK with Babri Masjid being destroyed by a mob in a SECULAR state shouldn’t open their dirty mouths about Pakistan.
Native American burial sites continue to be destroyed in the United States.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/10/23/the-government-bulldozed-my-tribes-sacred-burial-site-we-want-an-apology/
Painting with broad strokes, Hindus are a historically colonized and subjugated people.
The Masjid was built over one of the holiest sites in the religion. In a sense not too different than a confederate statue erected to remind Black Americans in the south of their place.
That said I disagree with the Masjid demolition.
They could have come to an amicable compromise with the Muslim community like what happened with the repeated sacked and rebuilt Somnath temple. With the current rebuilding in 1951. The mosque at the location was moved to a different site, with consent from the Muslim community, in the aftermath of the partition of India and the establishment of a pure Muslim homeland in the West and the East.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somnath_temple
“Hindus are a historically colonized and subjugated people”– That is the Hindutva narrative. I don’t buy it.
In a Secular state, there is NEVER any excuse to destroy a minority place of worship.
“India” was not partitioned. BRITISH India was. “India” was created on August 15,1947 at the exact same time as Pakistan. Historical accuracy matters.
“That is the Hindutva narrative. I don’t buy it.”
Well the Hinduva narrative includes some sort of overly glorious past, stretching back into eternity, till Islam arrives on the scene. I think that is a false narrative.
But the cultural and religious oppression of Hindus under the Islamic rule of India is a fact. The destruction of temples is a fact etc.
I would argue a repeated denial of these facts, alongside the creation of Pakistan is what allowed anti-Islam sentiment to rise in Hindus. Once these things are resolved within the Hindu psyche I don’t see the anti-Islam stuff as having the same level of appeal.
There are absolutely no religious reasons for Hindus to be opposed to Islam or Muslims.
“The republic of India” was created on August 15,1947 at the exact same time as “West Pakistan”.
The idea of India or the Hind or whatever you want to call it is older and goes back further.
The demand for Muslim homeland was from Indian muslims, ‘British Indian’ if it makes a difference. There was no popular demand from Hindus to partition and Hindutvadis of the time were marginal misfits who resorted to murdering Gandhi.
For what its worth I think the future of India is urban, and relatively irreligious, maybe some lip service to dharmic stuff but thats about it.
Dr. Richard Eaton is the canonical authority on this temple destruction business. I trust him much more than the Hindutvadis.
If Hindus were so “oppressed” under the Mughals, then the sepoys would not have turned to Bahadur Shah Zafar as the legitimate ruler of all of North India.
The Hindutva narrative is a fascist 20th century construct. It is a distortation of South Asia’s history.
“Dr. Richard Eaton is the canonical authority on this temple destruction business.”
What does he have to say on the subject ?
“If Hindus were so “oppressed” under the Mughals, then the sepoys would not have turned to Bahadur Shah Zafar as the legitimate ruler of all of North India.”
If the British had never invaded India possibly the Marathas would have used the Mughal emperor as a figurehead to legitimize their claim. That is not evidence of anything ?
Richard Eaton: http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00islamlinks/txt_eaton_temples2.pdf
The point about the 1857 Mutiny was that the Hindu sepoys obviously were not bothered by Bahadur Shah Zafar’s religion and still believed he was their legitimate ruler. So all this rhetoric of Hindu “oppression” and Hindu “genocide” rings hollow I’m afraid.
I particularly like Hindu “genocide”. 80% of India’s population is still Hindu, so the Mughals were really bad at “genocide” if indeed that was their goal. More likely the Hindutvadis using the term just don’t know what the definition of “genocide” is in English.
I never used the word genocide, obviously there was no large scale population replacement most Muslims have mostly Indian subcontinent ancestry. Even in Pakistan.
But Hindus and Hindu culture were subjugated, and oppressed. Their places of worship destroyed by Muslim rulers and invaders.
Nothing in that temple article suggests to me otherwise. It lists atleast 80 examples of temple destruction.
I think the fanatical zeal of the destruction would probably have been lower than ISIS but somewhat higher than the current persecution of religious minorities in Pakistan.
Contrast this with how Hindu kingdoms historically treated Zoroastrians, Jews, Christians.
The earliest mosque in the Subcontinent was in south India and stood unharmed through centuries of hindu rule till it was destroyed by the Portuguese. (It has since been rebuilt)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheraman_Juma_Mosque
\Dr. Richard Eaton is the canonical authority \
Name dropping does not convince anyone in matters of history.
Those of you have a problem with Dr. Richard Eaton are free to bring your own Ph.D historian.
I will always defer to someone with an actual Ph.D rather than random internet commenters.
@Sumit
Agreed.
I don’t want to see things demolished but I wish things were framed and presented differently. A place like the Qutb complex should be framed in such a way as to provoke reflections on the importance of religious tolerance and to acknowledge the trauma suffered by adherents of Dharmic religions for centuries. 27 Hindu and Jain temples were destroyed to make the Islamic monuments of the Qutb complex.
There needs to be truth and reconciliation rather than mob violence.
But when some segments refuse to even acknowledge things as they were, it seems hopeless.
+1. Create an audio and visual show on what exists vs what was there before. Project it on Qutub wall for all to see. That would be more powerful than breaking it.
Just watched the first two episodes of A Suitable Boy. I think it is more bearable than what some people are saying. And one of the reasons for it is the all-Indian cast and Indian locations. I really wouldn’t have been able to tolerate it with some random British “Asian” set.
Lol @ anniversary of 370 removal.
(400,000 new J&K UT domicile certificates in a month)
splco.me/eng/kashmir-marathon-exercise-400000-domicile-certificates-issued-in-a-month/
https://twitter.com/AsimAli6/status/1289981895376113664
“The interesting thing about blasphemy laws is that no political party in Pakistan opposes them. In fact, the moderate political view about blasphemy in Pakistan is that the state should kill people accused of blasphemy- mostly Ahmadis & Christians- and not vigilantes.”
This is not that difficult to understand. The Objectives Resolution of 1948 states that sovereignty belongs to Allah alone and that no laws can be made repugnant to Quran and Sunnah. Blasphemy is a crime under Islamic Law and no one in Pakistan can call for these laws to be removed. PPP only asks for them not to be misused.
Meaning that the entire Overton window in Pakistan is extremist. Being liberal there (in the mainstream sense) is no badge of honor. Just another flavor of extremism.
The Objectives Resolution is part of the Pakistani Constitution.
So many people from the PPP have been martyred for their center-left ideology. Governor Taseer was assassinated merely for suggesting that the Blasphemy Laws should not be misused. Shaheed Mohtarama Benazir Bhutto herself was martryed by a terrorist. Don’t underestimate the bravery it takes to be center-left in Pakistan.
“Governor Taseer was assassinated merely for suggesting that the Blasphemy Laws should not be misused. ”
Perhaps his dad should have had the same foresight….
@Kabir
Why do so many diaspora Pakistanis believe that Imran Khan is left / liberal?
Asking out of curiosity, not a rhetorical question.
I know quite a few diaspora Pakistanis (in Canada and the US), and they are very left wing here but also support IK thinking that he is the choice of the left.
This doesn’t seem consistent with what I’ve read elsewhere (and from you) that PPP is the left.
Does left / right apply well to Pak politics?
Anyone who believes IK is left/liberal is very misguided. He is a Right-wing born again Muslim. One only has to look at his third wife to see the image he is trying to project. She is completely covered up in burqa and is a “Peerni”.
PTI is a center-right party. Many of its ministers are people who were in power under General Musharraf. Their new proposed national curriculum includes more religion in it for third graders then even the madrassa curriculum does.
In Pak politics, PPP is center-left, PML-N is center and PTI is center-right.
“ I know quite a few diaspora Pakistanis (in Canada and the US), and they are very left wing “
There are left wing Pakistanis ? Under which rock ?
Lol well I guess they claim to be liberal. But in reality they seem more like the Mehdi Hassan type. A soft Islamist who knows how to recite the right mantras to confuse the gullible Western left.
Pakistan seems weirdly strict even in comparison to other Islamic countries.
The Asia Bibi case was messed up.
On the surface it’s a Blashphemy case of a Christian woman accused of Blasphemy by a Muslim woman.
But when you look at the details, it seems likely that the dispute stems from a Dalit Caste woman drinking from an Upper Caste well.
It’s really strange.
We don’t have the concept of “Dalit” in Pakistan. It’s a Hindu concept.
That said, many Muslims consider Christians to be lower-caste than them. Probably because many Christians are from the former “untouchable” classes.
If there is no concept of Dalit in Pakistan then how do you explain Krishna Kohli? She is a Dalit who is part of the PPP party in Pakistan and has some power there. It seems that Hinduism brings the caste system where ever it goes, which is a good or bad thing depending on how you look at it.
Well “Dalit” is a term used by activists in some marginalized non-savarna groups in India starting in the 20th century. It’s not a Hindu term pre se.
But i know what you mean.
Sad to hear that some remnants of the caste system persist in Pakistan. Tbh.
In regard to some comments here…
In spite of many years of media satanisation and permanent deep state propaganda, many pundits know what’s happened in Kosovo In late 90ies. In a nutshell, Islamic Albanians who are 17. c.AC intruders, are trying for years to steal this land from Serbs. It is unfortunate that Turkish occupiers for 350 years of ruling (in Kosovo, 400 years) were so primitive that haven’t built anything worth, not even houses for own living. This, 90 km in radius area, is a home of 2000 Serbian monasteries, churches and sacred places, some of them are 1000 years old. There is not ONE Albanian, Islamic monument in Kosovo.
Last month was published a capital book with pictures and documents about Christian Serbian heritage in Kosovo&Metohia. On p.47, for e.g., is a map of major cultural sites in Kosovo. Pundits who are interested in researching cultures and histories can see, in this impressive book for free on this site, many of Serbian monasteries and fresco paintings which survived the centuries of Islamic destruction and terror and make some parallels with a similar history in SA.
https://online.flipbuilder.com/szto/mnva/mobile/index.html
Americans are descendants of 17th century invaders too, you know. “They’ve only been here 350 years!” isn’t going to be a convincing argument for most people.
milan, kosovo is serbia. it will always be serbia.
#KosovoBanegaSerbia
I wasn’t trolling Razib sir I am someone who sincerely likes Godse.
you’re a zoomer LARPER who lives in the USA. you provide me your information so you know i can confirm that (your IP matches where you supposedly live too).
it’s fine for American browns to have views…but kids barely out of college who have spent most of their life in the USA and live on the west coast expressing weirdo right-wing-faschy-RSS views is kind of LARP-cringe. kind of like weirdos who are are monarchists in billings, MT or something, or salafis who live in portland, OR.
though if your love of Muslim women is truth, i assume you are creepin’ around fremont all the time? 🙂
Razib sir I am honored that you would write to me in a comment. I just wanted to say that I’m still in college due to health issues I had while in high school but I’ll be graduating this December and then it will be off in the workforce for me. Also, I think I mentioned this when I talked with Kabir a couple of days ago but I think the RSS is a bunch of soft pussies who haven’t done shit for male Hindus. The RSS spends way to much time pandering to Muslims and Christians for my liking and their political party hasn’t deported as many Muslims out of India as I would like. The kind of people I admire is Sitaram Goel and Tapan Gosh, folks who have been kicked out of the RSS because they love male Hindus so much that they are unwilling to make any compromises. Cupertino (where I live) isn’t as close to Freemont as it may seem on a map so I can’t go there as often as I’d like but my uncle does live there. To tell you the truth I haven’t really had much experience with women because of my cringe and possessive my parents are but after I move out in the next year or so I fully intend to take your suggestion and go hunt for some Muslim (Sulli) women in Fremont.
“Sulli” is a religious slur. This kind of language should not be allowed on this blog.
On Lord Ram: You are entitled to your religious beliefs. But no serious scholar would argue that he was anything other than a legendary character. Sorry that you find facts “Hinduphobic”. Ram is not a historical figure like Jesus of Nazarath or the Prophet of God (pbuh).
Also, love the fact that you needed to tell us you are Brahmin. Casteism is disgusting.
On homosexuality in the Hindu Scriptures:
Professor Madhavi Menon has a witten a book on desire in India. Ayyapan is considered the son of Shiva and Vishnu, conceived when Vishnu was in the form of Mohini.
As a proud half Punjabi Brahmin, I can assure you sulli is not a religious slur but just the word for female Muslims in Punjab. You can find millions of Sikhs across the world who use this word.
Lord Ram was a hundred percent a real person and I ask you if he wasn’t then how was Moses real? I accept there is more evidence for Jesus and Muhammad because they are recent but Lord Ram was millions of years ago.
How is my telling someone that I am Brahmin casteism? By this logic when Indians fill out the census form and tell the government their caste they are being casteist.
Manusmriti explicitly condemns homosexuality and the story of Ayappa is about how Shavaite and Vaishnavaite teachings were merged together not any gay stuff so please stop your lies.
Find me a reputable (non-Hindutvadi) historian who thinks “Lord Ram” is anything other than a myth. I’ll wait.
On Ayyappan, I’m going to trust Professor Madhavi Menon more than a random college student on the Internet.
“Sulla” is a Punjabi Slur. Just because Sikhs also use it against Muslims doesn’t make it not a slur. It’s not a word ever used in polite company (neither is “katua”).
Advik,
“I’m not an internet spoof.”
Never heard of you until a few hours ago. If you are sincere, I have never met or heard of any human being like you.
“I am someone who sincerely believes Godse was a deshbhakt.”
The RSS, VHP, Shiv Sena and BJP all strongly condemn what Godse did to Gandhiji. You are the first person I have ever encountered to praise Godse.
“In fact, I wish he came twenty years earlier then far less damage would have been done.”
This is a position many have. Have you read Aurobindo’ writings on Gandhiji?
“I don’t like it when Muslim men try and take part in Hindu rituals.” You and who else? 0.1% of Hindus? What are your thoughts on Kabir, Nund Rishi and Shirdi Sai Nath?
“I believe that male Hindus should control every part of Hinduism.”
What is a Hindu? What is Hinduism? For example, do you consider the Nakshatras to be Hindu (other stars and Galaxies)? Do you consider the more than 50 non homo sapien species (or interdimensional entities or aliens depending on how you interpret them) extensively discussed in the Shastras to be “Hindu”? Do you consider Brahma, Hiranyagarbha, Mahat (multi-verse) to be Hindu? How about other multiverses?
“male Hindus” What about the many LBGTQ saints and sages and non homo sapiens from the Shastras?:
—Illa
—mother/father/non binary of Vali and Sugriiva
—Brahma
—Krishna (who transformed into a woman to marry Iraavan)
—Arjuna
—Shikandi
—Vishnu
—Shiva
—Sapta Rishis
Since they are not strictly “male” I guess they are not “Hindu” and do not play a role in what you call “Hinduism”.
“However, I like how some Muslim women look so they are welcome to join if they take on male Hindu spouses.”
Are you trying to offend and set off people? This is inappropriate.
+++++++++++++++
You like to needle Kabir a bit much. You write like an internet personality.
“You’re the first person I’ve ever encountered to praise Godse”
Are you not familiar with Sadhvi Pragya Thakur? She openly called Godse a “deshbhakt” in the Lok Sabha. She’s still a BJP parlimentarian. Obviously they don’t find this view as disgusting as you think.
Sadhvi Pragya Thakur is the most beautiful woman on the planet in my honest opinion. I would give away a million dollars to take her out on a date. She is proof that despite how it may seem to me in Cupertino female Hindus are not a lost cause. I realize that Sadvhi and I are of different castes (I’m Brahmin and she’s Rajput) but I honestly think that if I ever met her or a girl like her in real life no matter what her caste was (or how she looked, smelled, or even what she ingested) I would lock that girl up in no time. Maybe I should start going after Rajput women- they’re descended from Lord Ram (who despite what your Hinduphobic ass says was a real person) and seem to be more traditional than Brahmin girls.
I’m not familiar with Auribondo’s writings in general but I do hope you understand that I meant I wished Gandhi was killed twenty years prior to 1947. Hell, I would have been fine if he had been dunked into a cold bucket of water upon birth.
I have thoughts on Kabir (whose writings I’ve read) and Sai Baba as well but I haven’t heard of the other guy you mentioned once in my life. I think Kabir was actually a Hindu whose family had converted to Islam very recently to escape the caste system but they themselves still followed Hindu rituals for the most part. As for Sai Baba, I think he was a scam artist and I am disgusted when I see other Hindus worship him do I will admit that my family does have a little thing for him in our house as well. From what I’ve read about Sai Baba he may have been what Kabir’s life would have been like if he had been born several hundred years later. It seems that Sai Baba wanted to become a Hindu himself but it was very difficult to convert at the time because the Arya Samaj, Brahmo Samaj, and liberal Hinduism in general just didn’t exist. That isn’t to say that the concept of Ghar Whapsi did not exist but that it was tough to come around in a time when we were all so divided by religion. I’m also disgusted that a man of Muslim birth could claim to be a reincarnation of Shiva who would only come back in the form of Hindu. Going back to a slightly earlier point you made about only 0.1 percent of Hindus being upset my Muslims taking part in Hindu rituals I think this is patently false and the controversy over Faiz Khan in proof of this. Hinduism is a space for Hindus and we’d respect if the rest of you just stay the hell out of it. I’m clearly not as knowledgable about Hinduism as you are but if I had to bet my house on it I’m willing to say that most Hindus would want me as a guardian of the faith over you because unlike you I see it as something more than some really good weed.
I really hate to break this to you but there is no such thing as an LGBT Hindu saint in our theology. Homosexuality is explicitly condemned in Manusmriti and no real Hindu priest would preside over a gay wedding or endorse the lifestyle.
I’m not trying to set anyone off with my statement about Muslim women I’m just keeping it real and letting you all know that I think Muslim women should marry Hindu men at high rates.
Re: all the flame wars with Kabir.
I wish we stopped comparing India with Pakistan. Serves no purpose than to flatter ourselves.
The only thing that should be compared to Pakistan is the state of Uttar Pradesh.
India as a whole should rather look upto peers like north America, Europe, or China.
I also wish Pakistanis stop drawing false equivalences with India to justify their society’s ills. They’d do well to look upto South Korea or Germany or even Indonesia.
Both of us are thinking too small.
two podcasts in patreon
– conversation with a secular indian very anti-hindu nationalist
– conversation with a scholar in Islam and political science
Heard the first 1st one Razib, Tony_Secularist
Were you guys as frustrated doing the podcast as I was listening to it ?
I felt he had really deracinated views about Indian politics and Hinduism/Hindutva. As a Person who identified with Liberalism in India I was really frustrated listening to the guest. Still have 20 odd mins to listen
gaurav, do you want to come on and present your views?
i think if we can *focused* on one issue for an hour it would have gone better.
the main critique i would present of tony’s views is that he does not seem to engage in the same critique of islam he does of india, which i get. notice i asked him if he thought islamic civilization was ‘superior’ because he basically seems to think indian civilization has nothing to be proud about.
I would like to do so Razib;
Though now I feel I shouldn’t hold his views to the standards of someone who lives in India and follows stuff in and our daily though. From the western lens often all nuance is lost and everything might become caricatures
Go on podcast buddy, make our N Indians proud. If there is anything missing in the browncast is an authentic N Indians voice, which sometimes Razib has to defend ??
Technically I am between the north and south.
I am a Marathi माणूस.
Cmon bro. U can say that, but we both know the truth ?
??
advik,
1) your comments are too long. i get it, you are in college and you have marginal time, but it’s annoying. probably part of your indian heritage as indian commenters have this problem
2) chill out on the troll quotient or I’ll start expurgating
advik,
i’m going to sleep. if i wake up and see a 50 comment shit show I’ll ban you. no one else is as amused by your baiting of kabir as you are.
Razib sir I will never intentionally interact with Kabir on this website again.
Thank God
Jai Shri Ram
Speaking of the phrase “Jai Shree Ram” have you seen how fucking hinduphobic the Wikipedia page for it is? It lies and says that Ram is normally shown as effeminate and that the phrase is a hate slogan. My Dad gives money to Wikipedia every god damn year and this is how they repay him? Honestly, leftists should not be allowed to examine Hinduism.
Indian vaccine manufacturer set up to manufacture hundreds of millions of doses the Oxford covid vaccine before Phase 3 trials complete.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/01/world/asia/coronavirus-vaccine-india.html
https://www.livemint.com/opinion/columns/why-the-country-s-new-plan-for-education-is-smart-11596379683166.html
“But I see this as a truce, and even a concession of our culture hawks that English is too useful to be denied to students beyond their early formative years.
The suave Westernised Indian has receded in public life, and the non-English speaking Indian is rising. Even so, the guardians, champions and beneficiaries of Indian culture have faced a problem—their cultural wares, languages especially, have not been of use to the young. Without being of material use, a cultural colonizer will merely get physical territory and not people’s minds.
Millions of young Indians who do not wish to pursue knowledge are trapped in meaningless education, wasting the best years of their lives, purely to obtain a piece of paper. If the young are gainfully employed and they receive love for the actual work they do, instead of pursuing charlatan degrees, cultural hawks may note, half of all activism will cease to exist”
Two things that stand out –
1. It is possible to discontinue any degree and then go back finish it, say, after 5 years.
2. Learning experience till Form 5, no more textbooks.
So all this rhetoric of Hindu “oppression” and Hindu “genocide” rings hollow I’m afraid.
I particularly like Hindu “genocide”. 80% of India’s population is still Hindu, so the Mughals were really bad at “genocide” if indeed that was their goal. More likely the Hindutvadis using the term just don’t know what the definition of “genocide” is in English.
kabir is wrong about oppression, but right about the genocide.
the crazy hindutva rhetoric about genocide means that ppl won’t dig deeper into the structure of oppression which islamic rule explicitly outlined and systematized. i’m not saying this pejoratively. islam is organized in a way that non-muslims are less privileged and marginalized from political power. that’s a feature, not some made up bug.
They exaggerate with “genocide” because for years their “oppression” was ridiculed. So now they over correct
A bit like how we exaggerate british colonialism.
some of the ahistorical things i’ve seen ‘secularists’ say, the crazy hindutva theories make a lot more sense. basically there is not much attempt to grapple with reality as it is as opposed to making shit out for the sake of propaganda
Ashraf Fragility
I agree that focusing on genocide is a poor strategy; dead men tell no stories. There is also a quasi-argument from hindutva side that caste endogamy solidified because of external invasions and a lot of women were captured as slaves.
Is it possible to analyze mt-dna to figure out the percentage of female slaves? Is the resolution too low for such analysis? Has there been too much migration in the background to come to such conclusions.