Open Thread – Brown Pundits – 7/11/2020

By Razib Khan 479 Comments

The usual. I’m rather liberal for open threads, but let’s try to diminish the vitriol.

Also, I am appreciating the links some of you are putting out there. I’m actually learning a lot.

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479 Replies to “Open Thread – Brown Pundits – 7/11/2020”

  1. Given the extra-judicial sentencing of Vikas Dubey and whats ailing our institutes in India and whether India can be a developed country. Here is Iyer Mitra:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=outMIhNxFSA

    The theme from his talk:
    1. India lacks the strategic independence it desires
    2. There is a web of issues (malnutrition, low spend on education, low skills, corrupt institutes and lower GDP)
    3. Cant bring out people out of poverty without massive industrialisation, but we are already late to being a mass manufacturing power
    3. Sees no way out of the web of issues

    1. “Aatmanirbhar Bharat” is a joke.

      We have a HUGE lack of skilled labour.

      Take for example this article from 2019: India now imports skilled labour for infra projects

      “contractors of infrastructure projects are now deploying welding and cutting operators from China, Russia and East European countries due to a huge shortage of domestic skilled welding workforce.”

      “The Indian Institute of Welding has estimated a short supply of 1.2 million welding professionals including welders, cutters, fitters, equipment operators besides engineers and inspectors.”

      It’s hilarious that we are importing workers from countries that have 4-5x our GDP/capita.

      Each of those 1.2 million guys is potentially a lower middle class person who is right now near poverty.

      https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/economy/india-now-imports-skilled-labour-for-infra-projects/article29657364.ece

    2. “The Indian Institute of Welding has estimated a short supply of 1.2 million welding professionals including welders, cutters, fitters, equipment operators besides engineers and inspectors.”

      There are other factors that affect this. A few years back there was a case in south India where lower-middle class teenagers ended up in programming cram schools even though the initial salary for a code monkey is significantly lower than that of a handyman (electrician, plumber, mechanic etc.). Now the question may be why so?

      When asked these boys said that the perception of blue-collar or white-collar played a large role in the way they were treated by society. For example, many families in Indian homes would get uppity if they perceive someone from a significantly lower class sitting on the expensive furniture in their house. Whereas, if they’re perceived as white-collar then that automatically means they have notable upward mobility because their work ‘requires brains’ even if the reality may be otherwise.

      It affects arranged marriages too, any guy working a white-collar job even if it pays less gets a few points above what a blue-collar person gets when it comes to compatibility scrutiny in the small town pecking order.

      If there’s more respect shown to the working classes by the middle class in India, then things may gradually change. Until then, there will continue to be a dearth of talent in required professions seen as undesirable by upwardly mobile people due to societal reasons.

      1. “A few years back there was a case in south India where lower-middle class teenagers ended up in programming cram schools even though the initial salary for a code monkey is significantly lower than that of a handyman (electrician, plumber, mechanic etc.)”

        One of my friends works with the Tamil Nadu government and this has been his opinion as well.

        TN government has now started a programme in partnership with private companies like TVS to provide training to individuals who want to learn iron-smithing, gold-smithing etc.

        Most of the labour in TN is from outside the state, though.

        One reason for the reluctance to get into blue-collar work as opposed to programming work might be the lack of a well defined career path.

      1. You don’t feel for Serbs? Both, Constantine, who founded Constantinople and Justinian, who built Hagia Sophia, were Serbs.

        1. There was no such thing as a Serb back then. They were Illyrians. Constantine was also half Greek, and Justinian’s birthplace is today in FYROM not Serbia.

          1. He posts things like this across everything by Razib. He has claimed the Indo-Aryans were an ancient Serbian tribe, that the Vinca culture was Serbia. Think of Ancient Aliens, but replace the aliens with Serbs, and you get most of Milan’s posts.

          2. Serbs always existed. They are the chosen people of God.

            Aryan Serbs Matter.
            Живела Србија!

          3. @StraightGay/Milan (probably the same)

            Trolling on the anniversary of the Srebenica Massacre is beyond bad taste. Enough with the silliness, and stop with the childish nonsense.

          4. “@StraightGay/Milan (probably the same)”

            By the one in whose hand is my soul, I am not civilized enough to be an Aryan, let alone Serb.

            However, it doesn’t change the fact that Serbia is the centre of the universe which pseudo-scientists have always tried to disprove.

        2. No they weren’t. The Serbs, a slavic people, did not exist in that region prior to the migrations of late antiquity, and neither Justinian or Constantine would have even understood that word.
          Your bizarre and pseudo-scientific “Serbs” invented everything posts are getting more than irritating.

      2. Don’t forget the Assyrians. At least the Greeks and Armenians have a country they can call their own. Turks absolutely fucked the Assyrians and I think the community will just go extinct within this century.

        1. Yea feel bad for them as well. Once again fuck Turks. All they’ve really done is ethnically replace people. So happy it didn’t happen in South Asia.

    1. I don’t care too much about this issue, but seems like this is unnecessary.

      I mean the blue masjid right across the street is so beautiful and historic, and there is no religious significance in Islam for this site, what is the point of using this particular site to pray aside from showing pride and a sense superiority stemming from conquest.

      Wonder if they would be open to at least sharing the space with christians to meekly conduct some prayer on some holy days?

      That might be a nice gesture of goodwill. Not sure if that would be allowed under Islamic law.

      1. “there is no religious significance in Islam for this site, what is the point of using this particular site to pray aside from showing pride and a sense superiority stemming from conquest.”

        That’s the same logic that applies to the mosque in Varanasi for example.

        1. Which one?

          The monstrosity Gyanvapi mosque is the semi demolished Kashi Vishwanath turned to a mosque.

          The other scar that will forever remind us of the benevolence of wali-e-hind Alamgir Aurangzeb that is Alamgiri is also built on and using the demolished ruins of Beni Madhav temple.

          Beni Madhav temple might not have been a top tier temple but Kashi Vishwanath most certainly was.

      2. I think this action is more about undoing Kamal Ataturk’s secularism than anything else. Just as Modi wants to undo everything Pandit Nehru has done Erdogan wants to undo Ataturk’s secularism.

        The reporting suggests that the only thing that will change is that people will be able to offer namaaz. No changes will be made to the interior or exterior of the site and tourists will continue to visit. It’s not like Babri where a mob destroyed the mosque. Hagia Sophia remains standing.

        And those comparing this to Al-Aqsa being made into a synagogue are missing the very important point that East Jerusalem is Occupied Palestinian Territory while Istanbul is sovereign Turkish territory. This is a Turkish internal matter.

  2. NYT – The leading paper of American liberals and globalists has published several related program articles. Some were written in the editorial office, and some are from the pens of cult leftists and progressives – economists, activists and businessmen

    * The main points of the project “America as we need it” are: to forgive all debts to blacks, including debts on consumer loans; black people exempt from paying for all banking services; provide zero-interest mortgages to blacks; provide zero-interest loans to black business owners; significantly increase the inheritance tax (it is clear in advance that whites and `white property` will be hit)

    * Added to this is a reform of the electoral system that will – if enacted – allow the American Liberal Democrats to rule the United States forever.

  3. What’s the big deal with the Hagia Sofia being turned into a mosque again? As long as they don’t destroy the Christian architecture and paintings it’s not really a big deal. In fact it maybe in the buildings best interest to be a mosque since extremists won’t ever target it. I’m into history and the last thing I want is for any historical architecture or structure to be destroyed. The demolition of the Bamiyan Buddha’s in Afghanistan in 2001, now that was messed up and we may not get anything made like that ever again. In comparison the Hagia Sofia is a non issue.

    1. I would have no issue too if the Dome of the Rock is turned into a Synagogue or the Great Mosque of Mecca is turned into the Great Cathedral of Mecca. As long as they don’t destroy the Islamic architecture that is. That’s where I draw the line.

      1. The Dome of the Rock would never become a synagogue. It would probably be destroyed first and then a synagogue would be built on top of it as per the rebuilding of the Second Temple of Jerusalem. Same with the Kaaba if a Church was made. Be grateful that the Hagia Sofia was not demolished when the Turks conquered Constantinople.

        1. “Be grateful”

          Muslims always end up showing up their true colors when talking to dhimmis

          1. You should get off your high horse. Grateful as in be grateful a 15th century conqueror didn’t do what many other conquerors did in the past. Which is destroy mosques, churches and synagogues. Enough with this victim complex.

            And learn what the term dhimmi means before using it randomly.

            Anyways I’m done with the Hagia Sofia topic.

    2. But seriously, Hagia Sophia is the spiritual capital of millions of Orthodox Christians worlwide. Not sure the equivalent for Sunni but it is like Karbala of Shia. The fact that it was a museum until now was a humiliating compromise. Now even that is gone. I won’t be surprised if there are retaliations from some Russian nationalist or Byzantiboos worldwide.

    3. \In fact it maybe in the buildings best interest to be a mosque since extremists won’t ever target it\
      It will happen in stages. When there is more fundamentalism in Turkish society, Ergogon will slowly tighten the screws. Suddenly a bunch of AQ/ISIS guys may blow themselves up in Hagia Sophia to remove the “stain of kuffar” and cleanse Turkish society of apostasy. . Erdogon’s action is only the first step

  4. Question for Razib. My “caste” is Syed, specifically Bihari Syed. I have been researching my family tree and ancestry using some basic tests like ancestry.com and 23 and me and GED match. In terms of y haplogroups as per 23 and me, the males of my Bihari Syed caste have varying types of y haplogroups such as R1a, R2, H, L, I, J1, J2 with myself belonging to J-CTS5368 (J1a). Is the varying y haplogroups something that is usual within other caste groups in South Asia?

    As well, when inputting my raw data into GED match, I seem to be closest to Bihari and UP Syeds with the next closest groups being UP, Bengali and Bihari Brahmins. Would that mean it is safe to say that a majority of my ancestry is Brahmin?

    The Syed caste is something that was established during the Delhi Sultanate and Mughal rules with Syeds not being a caste in the Middle East but a title for descendants of prophet Muhammed. But it seems to have evolved into a caste in South Asia in those times. Is it possible Brahmins converted to Islam and became Syeds and or mixed with Middle Eastern Syeds who came to South Asia and eventually these Syeds practiced endogamy?

    I would appreciate your feedback.

    1. Is the varying y haplogroups something that is usual within other caste groups in South Asia?

      yes. though sometimes the frequency can be really skewed. eg bengali brahmins are 75% r1a. but kayastha gotras in w. bengal are all over the place. some are even east asian.

      Is it possible Brahmins converted to Islam and became Syeds and or mixed with Middle Eastern Syeds who came to South Asia and eventually these Syeds practiced endogamy?

      some syeds do have the ‘correct’ Y chromosome. but on the whole, I think most were upper caste converts, disproportionately brahmin.

  5. I think there is a wider shift in world politics to lock in their gains, or at least go back to their original maximilist positions. Of course Hagia Sophia being a museum in the first place was not really needed, and there was a possibility that it remained a mosque, post 1931. Similarly the Chinese post 1962 did not need to recede from their claim lines post 1962 war. The US need not really need to help Europe post WW2 with marshall plan/NATO. All this were initiative which actually helped the host countries as well.

    But the way the world is moving, there is this growing view that we need to go back what we had “given” as a sign of good faith or that we “gave” far too much. Perhaps i am overthinking it.

    1. I’ve been to Hagia Sophia. It was really beautiful to see the calligraphic names of the Prophet and Imam Ali in the same space with the Savior and the Virgin. In my opinion, it should have remained a museum. However, it is Turkish sovereign territory and their right to do as they wish.

      This is all part of Erdogan trying to undo Kemalism and create a neo-Ottoman Empire. He’s just the Turkish version of your own Hindu Hriday Samrat.

      1. I mean look we can all be petty and argue it ad nauseam that Babri was on India’s Sovereign territory and what Indians did to the mosque was no one else business. I would argue that at the point where Modi/Erdogan are in terms of power they dont really need all this construction of Babri-Ram temple or Sophia conversion to mosque.

        But making a larger point, we are moving away from the post WW2 consensus, back to a proto Great game era. Who knows what happens when the next corona virus hits. This time around at least the world was interconnected-interdependent enough. Next time a Pandemic hits , it could lead to a race b/w US vs Europe vs China to find a vaccine and then try to use it as leverage to gain concession some other front.

        1. Babri was literally destroyed by a Hindu extremist mob. There are no changes being made to the interior or exterior of Hagia Sophia. Indians in particular have no business lecturing Turks.

        2. If we’re going to have more pandemics, America might as well throw in the towel now, no point racing for a vaccine. This country has been derping from start to finish…we have a populace that wants to binge-drink and grope at bars, a media obsessed with political polarization rather than actually conveying information, a sclerotic legal-bureaucratic regime which dramatically retarded the production of masks and tests…and in our hospitals, we have shortages of medications and even pulse oximeters (as I found out the hard way.)

          It’s a fool’s game to guess when the next pandemic will come around. But if it comes relatively recently…then America’s done. The Chinese system proved itself far superior this time around, and will do so again.

    2. Entire galaxy is claimed by China. They held as much as they could have held. In the best of circumstances they might have managed to hold onto Tawang ftill winter came but India would have prevailed in the East. Now they are claiming non-contiguous parts of Bhutan. Chinese have been in the statecraft business for a very long time, they know people forget stuff with time, they will continue doing their thing no matter what we say or do. We should do our thing. Theirs is the brand of diplomacy that colonial empires employed. They want to perpetually keep us engaged, good! we should perpetually keep them engaged. They gave Pakistan nuclear bombs and missiles, good! we will give nuclear bombs and missiles to everyone from Taiwan to Vietnam to Indonesia. If they impinge our interests we should impinge their interests.

      Agree especially about US not being acknowledged enough. Pakistan gulped 30+ Billion USD over a decade and didn’t even say thank you! When America will recede people who call them war-mongers currently will beg them to intervene.

      1. I feel mostly people from outside UP are more interested in breaking that state. There is hardly any sub regional movement AKA Telangana to break away from the state. States are not broken for “administrative efficiency” but on emotions/demand. There is no conclusive proof that the states which broke away did better. We have number of examples to suffice both conditions. And UP might become worse off with smaller states. Who would take the blame then?

        Also any forceful breakup especially if seen 2 done by outsiders will create another revanchist movement which will make the state push back and become even more tight knit. Mumbai was a cosmopolitan city but even the chance of it becoming a union territory was enough for the rise of Marathi revanchism. You will see UP revanchism in the more prosperous Western UP then.

    1. As a guy from Satna and a Bagheli language supremacist, I approve of the creation of a new state out of Baghelkhand. MP governments have long neglected the region, despite the BJP winning an MP from here since 1977 consistently.
      There are enough demands of creation too, though not including any UP districts.

  6. Recently I joined an online community (for a creative media course) that’s open to everyone but seems to be 95% women.

    Honestly the least toxic most welcoming community I have been a part of online, couldn’t help but contrast it with the Jaat wars that took place on this forum which is 95% male.

    With all this brinkmanship in world politics I am wondering if this would apply to politics. Guys are really good at my team vs your team type stuff, that has perhaps been historically necessary. But it seems technology and falling population numbers may remove basic resource scarcity for our species in the future.

    And going forward we need more collaborative solutions, to solve global issues that face humanity beyond just simple jockeying for resources between teams to survive and reproduce.

    A really intelligent guy I know once suggested to me once that he supported women taking over all global leadership positions for a couple of decades.

    I was initially reflexively against the idea at the time, but now I am starting to come around to it.

    They would have a chip on their shoulders and this added incentive to work hard, and could they really be that much worse than our current crop of world leaders?

    1. I welcome many more women in top positions of the society. OTOH I don’t think it will change anything much on the ground.

      1. maybe the worst case and most likely scenario is as follows:

        1. on the ground status quo
        2. some powerful men loosing out out on more power
        3. women getting some representation they have missed out on since the neolithic started, and little girls get role models etc.

        Best case scenario is women, have a desire to prove themselves, and turn out to be transformative to the culture of global leadership somehow and help solve issues that require global cooperation like climate change as their legacy.

        I agree the best case is unlikely, but in poker terms seems like a ‘freeroll’.

    1. They’re welcome to say what they like…at this point, they’re closing the barn door after the horse has bolted, and if they want to pursue a hawkish position against China…they’ll need all the help they can get tbh.

      1. Sorry (American) Hindutvadi fascist, President Biden will not buy your “atoot ang” crap. Better make sure your fascist Trump wins in November (not likely).

        1. There will be some low key clucking at Modi for form’s sake which both sides will have forgotten in three months. India is too big not to have on your side and no one cares about Kashmir apart from Pakistani Punjabis. Putin will get it well and hard in the shorts, he needs to be reminded he only runs Snow Nigeria.

          1. traditionally the dems were the proindia party. no residual from that? also, lots of indian American (immigrants) are democrats who are promodi

          2. “No one cares about Kashmir except for Pakistani Punjabis”–this is a false statement. Kashmiri Muslims care very much.

            The Democratic Party is against the August 5 annexation of the Disputed Territory into India Proper. They are also against CAA and NRC.

            Hindutvadis need Trump to win but (luckily) that is most probably not going to happen.

          3. “traditionally the dems were the proindia party. ”

            In India there is a view that Republicans are better for India. They are seen as less “noisy” while Democrats are seen more pro Pakistan ( pro Kashmir, HR) .

            In Pakistan again Republican preferred by military, Afghan Jihad/BD war etc under Republican admin. While democrats are seen as pro India (Clinton-Kargil)

    2. Dumb geopolitical move honestly. US could afford to play the neutral policeman role in the in the past but now it’s becoming increasingly irrelevant. Pretty much everyone wanted to be on the good graces of the US. The public also used to believe in America leading the democratic world or whatever. Now no one believes in the American pretenses. There are other big boys around. It needs to a pick a side and just stick with it otherwise you lose both sides.

      1. I think Biden just keeps on saying whatever each constituency needs to here. Some days back he was saying some woke shit.

        “There are other big boys around. It needs to a pick a side and just stick with it otherwise you lose both sides.”

        The point is who will win this war though. As HM said we can clearly see the merits of the Chinese system.Not ideal but effective to certain extent. Right now both sides, seem to bring certain strength to the bear. The US still in the foremost power, and allying with it still bring clear benefits. While China the insurgent seems the bet for the future. At least the more coherent power here.

        1. This remark was made by Biden’s foreign policy advisor, Antony Blinken at the Hudson Institute.

          The point is that Democrats do not accept the August 5 annexation of the DISPUTED TERRITORY into India Proper. Neither would President Biden accept CAA. Sorry Hindutvadis.

          1. Well we will see, won’t we. He is establishment candidate.

            He will make the similar noises Obama would, about CAA,Kashmir, Human rights etc. India can live with it. On policy level there will hardly any change. The Indo-US alignment is far too strong for liberals of either country to put a spanner in the works. It might sound unfortunate , but this is how it will play out

  7. On Twitter, it is fun to see Hindutva compatriots commiserating with Turkish secularists and Indian secularists siding with the Islamists.

    Pakistanis, on a high from wanking to Esra Bilgic’s on-screen aura, ran into some threads with Babri and Paki-Chini Bhai Bhai sentiments. Then some HKérs jumped in and the whole thread is just sliding into dog’s vomit.

    1. “New short story”

      I started reading that and couldn’t go past the first few paragraphs. Skimmed the rest of the article.

      It’s hilarious. Feels like a caricature of a short story.

      Seems these literary fora will publish any tripe as long as it is woke.

      1. It’s actually a really good story. The ending is surprising. But of course Hindutvadis won’t like it because you all are not depicted in a flattering manner.

        1. “But of course Hindutvadis won’t like it because you all are not depicted in a flattering manner.”

          Lol. Calling me a ‘Hindutvadi’ for rhetorical purposes is fine and I let it pass. But please don’t use that as an excuse for your terrible literary taste.

          (In any case, you do not know my politics IRL. I could very well be one of you.)

          1. From your comments on this blog, it is quite easy to gage your politics. You often complain about your dating experiences with “woke” women. If I remember correctly you told an anxious girl to read the “Gita”, which she found incredibly offensive. And you have used the word “Islamist” to describe me in the past, so no you are not an Indian left-liberal. Don’t pretend now.

            Literary taste is subjective so your thinking mine is “terrible” is neither here nor there. In any case, I’m the one who actually has a degree in English Literature.

          2. I don’t know why you feel the need to deploy theological Islamic terminology like “kuffar”–certainly not something a secular left-liberal would do.

            The point is you have a long record on this forum which allows one to sensibly guess that you are nowhere near the left of the political spectrum.

  8. Niceties aside what hard stuff exactly does the US really help India with?

    1) Tactical (obsolete b-rung stuff for Americans) weapons that India pays with hard cash and market rate.
    2) Civilian nuclear deal: never understood the need for it. Again paid for in hard cash. Anyways we will not be building enough reactors and solar >> nuclear.
    3) Trade: well if we couldn’t stop Chinese trade even after mutual butchering what could the US do to stop us?
    4) Noise in US Senate/Congress/UN: I suppose it is time for Uma Bharati, Meneka Gandhi and Mayawati to hold a race relations in the US hearing and issue random statements that Americans can smirk and disrespectfully dismiss.
    5) Visas: Indian middle class(~10 LPA) will find a way. There is immense appetite for good education in Indians. These people will always find a way. Job losses will be tragic for individuals but not for the Indian state. Of course with great action comes great reaction.
    6) Newspaper/bad-press/propoganda-BS: No one really cares in India. Doesn’t really count as hard power.

    US is a good perhaps even great friend to have. But it turning into a bitching acquaintance is still OK. And if it means that Trump leaves it is still a win.

  9. Can’t get too worked up over Hagia Sophia. It’s a magnificent piece of architecture, among the best in the world and too good not to use as a place of worship. Can’t think of a building I have been to which gives the same sense of religious awe. Would be a good move to allow Christians to worship there too.

    1. Frankly i dont know why it was converted to a museum in the first place. Was there some movement for that?

      It just gave a rallying cry to Islamists, with questionable benefits to Kemal-ism.

      1. Ataturk was a staunch secularist and I don’t think he personally liked Islam at all. This is the man who changed the script of the Turkish language from Arabic to Roman. Also, the man who abolished the Caliphate. Finally, Kemalism is what outlawed the wearing of hijabs. He wanted Turkey to be a modern Western European state and mosques weren’t really a part of that model.

        There is now a pushback to that. Again, the parellel is with Pandit Nehru who wanted to modernize India and the Hindutva Regime which wants to go back to a mythical golden age.

        1. Ataturk was a staunch secularist and I don’t think he personally liked Islam at all. This is the man who changed the script of the Turkish language from Arabic to Roman.

          most biographers state he was personally an atheist.

          the switching fo the script was a conscious attempt to destroy the historical continuity of the turks with their ottoman past. modern turks can’t read ottoman documents.

    2. It is stunning. And to be honest it has a quality to it that the blue mosque (itself quite a beauty) just doesn’t even come close to.

      Amazing what the Byzantines were capable of building in the sixth century. Romans(Eastern and Western) really killed the competition in architecture. The only extant Indian building of the period I could compare it with is the Mahabodhi temple (both 55m tall). God bless Wali-e-Hind Aurangzeb Alamgir and Ghazi Ghaznavi for not destroying it.

      The first time I was told that the Roman Colosseum and Pantheon are about 2 millennia old, I was blown away. It is surprising (and tbh quite telling) that despite such tall claims in Hindu books nothing quite as spectacular as the terracotta army or the Pyramids has ever been found in India.

      My sister says that we have intangible cultural heritage (stuff like vedic chanting, yoga, Buddhist nonviolence, our music etc) and that ancient Indians produced works of philosophical/spiritual depth that was unmatched. After looking at how lame and full of obvious divisive, petty propoganda books like Quran and Old testament are, I do think there is something admirable about what our people were busy doing in those days. But erecting a few more big buildings like Hagia Sophia, making beautiful porcelain pots and building a big ass army to take on the invaders would have been very cool too.

      1. @Bhimrao – What your sister says is true. The whole of S.E Asia, China and the Far East (Japan) still sing paeans to a single cultural/philosophical export from Bihar. All those Romans and Byzantines did not have a practical numeral system until our contribution.

        But Indians also have low cultural literacy. So generally they gloss over the Sanchi Stupa, Brihadisvara temple, Ajanta caves or the Kallanai Dam. Nalanda Mahavihara (30 acres) was supposed to be magnificent until it was destroyed.

      2. You need big strong states that can extract a lot of revenue to be able to build those buildings. India often didn’t have that.

        That’s one reason why so many of our large monuments are Mughal.

        We do have a lot of public works architecture like step wells, which show that our priority was the welfare of the people.

        I find that admirable (or maybe just looking for consolation.)

        1. We had strong big states and we had multi-decadal construction projects in the historical record. Ajanta Caves is something that will put Hagia Sophia in the shade in terms of planning, execution and siting. You can see it for yourself and make a conclusion (at least via Google Images)

          1. I am not saying we didn’t have them. Just not as often as the west and that our priorities were often different.

          2. The Kailash temple in Ellora is truly a stunning marvel. It doesn’t have the aesthetic elegance as some other monuments in some ways, but it is an insane feat.

        2. What about the Angkor Wat and the other extremely impressive buildings built under the influence of Indians all around SE Asia? They rank as impressive as any of those buildings to me.

          1. Colosseum and Pantheon predate Brihadiswara, Angkor Wat, Borobudur by about a thousand years, Parthenon by 1500, that is a long time so not quite comparable.

          2. @Bhimrao –

            The real significant thing is that Brihadisvara is still a temple. So are the Ajanta caves for Buddhist monks. Neither has the Pantheon or Hagia Sophia continue to function as it’s makers intended. Indians have the magic ingredient!! Romans and Byzantines should learn something from us.

      3. You could have made your point without being derisive towards the word of God. But of course Islamophobia will out.

          1. Muslims believe that it is. You are entitled to not believe that but there is no need to gratuitously insult our scripture. It’s extremely insensitive.

          2. Any human who believes that Quran is the word of God is stupid, moronic and completely credulous.

          3. It’s a religious belief. It has nothing to do with facts.

            But you’re from the group that believes in monkey gods which is in your own words probably more “moronic and stupid” than believing in divine revelation.

          4. Monkey Gods? You dont understand Hinduism my friend. Go read the words of your pedo prophet and stop posting here, my “ethnically Indian” friend. You guys are the same people that lie to others about being “Indian” when confronted about your failing state and noxious religion and ideologies.

            You have even admitted to being guilty of this yourself. Mercurial hypocrites like you should introspect before lecturing others on their beliefs and identity. Incorrigible fool.

          5. APthk,

            You are no one to tell me where I can and cannot comment. You do not own this blog. I have been commenting here far longer than you.

            Insulting the Prophet of God is completely unacceptable. You just reveal your islamophobia. As far as monkey gods go, isn’t that factually what lord Hanuman is? Hindus are entitled to whatever they want to be believe but you can’t claim it’s less “irrational” than belief in divine revelation. Don’t insult Islam if you don’t want Hinduism to be insulted.

        1. While examining the heritage of Europeans and others in their proximity, people make the mistake of treating the entire Western Hemisphere, especially the Western world, as a monolith, while only treating India as standalone country, devoid of its larger cultural and religious sphere of influence. When one examines the achievements of those cultures that were historically a part of “Greater India” it is easy to see that our heritage is no less impressive than theirs in any respect. And this is despite the fact that iconoclasts and tyrants have tried their best to destroy this ancient legacy by uprooting ideologies, razing monuments and beheading leaders and learned scholars. Our heritage has a resilience that is unmatched, for it has survived inordinate attempts of extinction.

          The Western world has largely escaped the vagaries of constant invasions and iconoclasts, (because for large portions of history, Europe and most neighboring countries were at best backwaters, and held no interest to marauders and looters who were searching for untold wealth and prosperity as was found in South Asia) and as such preserves a greater portion of its cultural heritage. Even as recently as the British, foolish “archaeologists” were destroying priceless cultural artifacts, such as when they cut one of the musical pillars at Hampi to understand its acoustic properties. Of course, it didn’t amount to anything apart from forever damaging the structural stability of the monument. The gall that some people have in questioning the greatness of India’s tangible heritage is truly shameful. The “lack of evidence” doesn’t imply the evidence is lacking. Not only do we lack a complete historical record, we have yet to uncover as-yet undiscovered archaeological sites, and as aforementioned, we must consider our heritage as a part of a larger entity, which stretches far beyond the borders of current-day Hindustan for obvious reasons.

      4. After looking at how lame and full of obvious divisive, petty propoganda books like Quran and Old testament are

        the hewbrew bible in particular is a pretty great piece of prose literature for something that dates from the end of the bronze age/early iron age. the koran tbh is pretty derivative as prose (not really structured that way).

        the ancient chinese knew some things about the romans. one of the primary aspects that was wonder inducing is that they build a lot of stuff in stone. in east asia it’s mostly wood, so very little ancient stuff (a buddhist temple from the 6th century is an exception).

        1. @Razib

          I do not have enough background and understanding to appreciate the quality of the literature itself.

          Can you please recommend a few (budgeting no more than 40 hour read time for a moderate speed reader combined) good books that bring out the beauty/essence of HB/OT/NT/Bible and Quran. I had spent time on King James and found it unbearably bad to read and follow.

        2. There is no stone in the Indo Gangetic plain. Bricks were used, and easily dismantled. I wonder if is there is any brick building surviving a 1000 years. Indian wonders before Muslim rule are where there was stone to build. Who can fail to be impressed by the Rameshwaram temple, or the caves at Ellora, so sadly defaced and destroyed as was Nalanda. The resplendent Martand temple in Kashmir, also in stone, stands sublime, though Sikander Butshikan went at it with hammer and crowbar. In Rajasthan the Jain temples in marble are a sight to behold.

      5. What about possibility of undersea structures though? I know that Graham Hancock has gone Ancient Aliens way, but offshore structures near Lothal or Mahabalipuram do exist.

        Also, Pyramids and Terracotta Army weren’t always known until archeological discoveries have been made. There could have been more things built and destroyed (going by myth and not only from Mahabharata but “tripurathaka” title to Shiva – destroyer of three cities) and we won’t even know that glory because nobody spends time looking for such things.

  10. I support Hagia Sophia as a mosque. And Christians could always troll Turks by posting videos of services in Córdoba’s Mezquita-Catedral de Nuestra Señora de la Asunción 🙂

    1. Everyone knows services have been conducted there in Cordoba since the reconquista. I sat through part of one during my last visit.

    2. I know I shouldn’t but I always give out a juvenile chuckle when I hear ‘Hagia Sophia’. Sounds scatological in some Hindi dialects.

      I hope I am not punished for this apostacy.

  11. Almost any topic brings out the Islamophobes on BP. This week it happens to be Hagia Sophia. Next week it’ll be something else.

    Can’t do without your weekly dose of Islamophobia (and anti-Pakistan rhetoric) can you? Hindutvadis are truly a pathetic group of people.

  12. Some time back someone posted on Indian Americans settling in red-state suburbs, or areas where their neighbours were not half as educated and affluent as they were. They made the point that Indian Americans either could not tell the difference, or would resolutely act as though these were genuinely elite places.

    The result of COVID, in my experience, has been that many Indian Americans are forced to face that facts about where they live. Either their state governments, or their local neighbours, are very anti-science and anti-mask. I know several Desis that have now been open about this, and are looking to sell their tract mansions, and move to more educated and affluent areas.

    I also hope this finally leads Indians to ditch the carnivalesque wedding culture that has got out of hand. If Indians really want to claim to be good with money, they could better use that wedding money for other purposes that can advance themselves and their interests.

    1. My wife did her PhD in the US, one of her classmates was an Indian girl whose parents were successful doctors working and living in an island in the state of Georgia. The girl had a pretty tough childhood due to being exposed to a lot of racism and ended up flunking out due to mental health issues. Per my wife other Indian origin people she knew in the US would complain about racism in flyover states and the ones who had taken faculty positions in southern colleges had a terrible time. You wonder how many scarred children that created.

      1. Thank you for sharing that. That was actually the topic that was being discussed, and it is clear that it creates a certain worldview.

        Until now, many Desis have kept asserting that their McMansion in the Suburbs at a low price meant that they were being smart about where they lived. They never addressed the fact that they had the resources to move to better places, and that their neighbours were far less affluent (mostly relying on borrowing to finance housing and lifestyles) or far less educated than they were.

        COVID, and the reactions to it, are forcing these Desis to face the music. This the the hidden cost of their cheap large house, and the reactions of both the elected authorities and their communities show that their neighbours are the voting base and participants for anti-science policy.

      2. Really sad that they are the victims of such bigotry. Whenever I watch the Scripps National Spelling Bee, I always am impressed at the fact that Desis dominate the field. The National Geographic Bee, which is much more difficult, is also crowned with a pantheon of Desis. To think that they face dsicrimiation simply because of an accident of birth is really appalling.

        (Before someone accuses me of being a hypocrite, let me remind you that I never claimed other South Asians were inferior in any way, simply that our community had a distinct apperance, and I am not going to talk about this topic again, as Razib has asked us not to continue this conversation)

        1. i think it depends on personality. i grew up eastern oregon and faced racism, and was physically attacked.

          but i know i’m superior. my siblings too. it’s just in our nature to believe this. so racism has had no impact on me.

          otoh, i know other people who are of softer constitution who were traumatized by being the outgroup.

          this makes sense. i’m pretty sure i have a personality where i’m OK with being the outgroup anywhere. i’m a conservative with a lot of academic friends, outgroup there too. but this is not typical probably.

          1. “i grew up eastern oregon and faced racism, and was physically attacked.”

            Why were you attacked? What were the circumstances around it?

          2. I grew up in small city in the south. Similar to your account, being different and occasional hostility didn’t scar me. frankly, i wouldn’t have chosen a different childhood. A lot of adversaries became friends in adulthood. People and places change. I’ve lived in big blue state cities for college and adulthood, and the street level racism can be far worse there than where I grew up to be honest.

          3. Depends. I never felt like I was in an outgroup when I went to the major American cities.

            In my current, monoracial/monocultural place? I definitely do.

            Being in medical academia as a sorta-Righty? Lol I feel like I’m a deep cover agent no lie.

      3. “The girl had a pretty tough childhood due to being exposed to a lot of racism and ended up flunking out due to mental health issues.”

        Ali Chaudhary, you hit a big chord here. as someone who seen these incidents unfolding in front of my own eyes, I can only vouch for authenticity of your observation.

        i moved to US as a grown up, so never faced serious racism personally. but i had the misfortune of living in a lily white small american town a few years ago, and had to witness first hand the horrendous racism and bullying suffered by my daughter in her school.

        the whole thing left such a bitter taste, that it left me questioning the whole rationale of migrating to US in the first place. i mean, indian professionals like me study and work hard to realize their american dream, little do they realize that their dream is really a nightmare to their kids.

        i had an ordinary middle class indian childhood, but it was such a happy childhood. we didn’t have a lot of material comfort that my daughter has, but at least we had the comfort of knowing that we are loved, respected and required by the society. no wonder lot of indian kids who grow up in american tend to acquire socially misfit and awkward persona.

        the indian parents that i know are all equally disenchanted with america, and consciously moving to thickly indian towns and neighborhoods. (like fremont in cal, edison in NJ etc). i know this is ghettoization, but it is a necessary evil. the first requirement to grow up as a healthy adult to have a happy childhood. if you can’t even give that to your kids, then what is the worth of all the dollars and material comforts you may acquire?

        1. School bullying (irrespective of race) seems to be a pretty American cultural phenomenon. I wasn’t even aware of the it till I grew up and learnt of it via social media.

          Even today, you’d hear an odd case here and there in the media but not much more.

          We do have ‘ragging’ in colleges, though, which can be pretty brutal.

          If anyone here has seen schooling in both India and US, they can probably explain the difference and put the experience in context.

        2. Scorpion:

          and had to witness first hand the horrendous racism and bullying suffered by my daughter in her school.

          I’m curious: what kinds of behavior was your daughter subjected to? Racial slurs? Ridicule about culture/name/food? General ostracism? (I’m guessing since she was a girl that bullying wouldn’t have been physical.)

          I only went to grad school in the country, and I couldn’t imagine the people I met and hung out with behaving in this manner. But clearly some must have, given these reports, so I wonder what changes from childhood to adulthood and how.

          1. @Numinous, thankfully my daughter was never bullied physically. also, i dont think anyone made fun of her because of her brown skin. mostly it was kids giving her hard time just because she was different. usually it came down to nobody socializing with her during lunch time and play time. white kids would just make her feel left out.

            at times it was making fun of the food she carried in her lunchbox. she would plead with her mom not to pack her indian food in lunchbox, and ask for “american” food items like pasta, sandwiches etc. all that just to fit in.

            “I only went to grad school in the country, and I couldn’t imagine the people I met and hung out with behaving in this manner. But clearly some must have, given these reports, so I wonder what changes from childhood to adulthood and how.”

            nothing changes. mean white kids grow up to be mean white men and women. the only thing that changes when they reach adulthood is that they become smart enough to keep their feelings hidden inside them. that’s what i guess they call “cultural sensitivity”.

            i hold an american passport, yet i don’t call myself american. the feeling of belonging is just not there. for me the US passport is just an economic tool. a tool that i earned by many years of working hard and paying into the system. that’s all there is to it.

          2. “Shall I not tell you about the Dajjal a story of which no prophet told his nation? The Dajjal is one-eyed and will bring with him what will resemble Hell and Paradise, and what he will call Paradise will be actually Hell; so I warn you (against him) as Noah warned his nation against him.”(Sahih Bukhari 3338)
            😉

  13. I haven’t spoken much for the past few weeks but I’m tired of reading comments from a certain someone.

    Let’s get one thing straight- no other religion is as backward and regressive as Islam (not saying that other religions are perfect, each one has its own flaws, but Islam is by far the most flawed) whether you like it or not. Sick and tired of reading all those baseless statements.

    Stop whining like a little kid and calling everyone an “Islamophobe” in every other comment just because they don’t respect Islam.

    Jews, Buddhists/Shinto, Hindus and atheists/agnostics are all much smaller in number than Muslims (especially Jews), and yet, when you take a look at the Nobel Prize in the sciences, the Fields Medal, Abel Prizes, Lasker Awards, Turing Award, Breakthrough Prizes etc., you can see that they’ve all won more prizes than Muslims (some awards don’t even have any Muslim winners).

    There are 49 countries in Asia, and 23 of them are Muslim-majority, and yet the 3 Asian space-powers are all non-Muslim majority ones (China, India and Japan)-
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Asian_national_space_programs#Asian_space_powers

    Singapore used to be a part of Malaysia not so long ago, and today, Buddhist-majority Singapore is way ahead of Muslim-majority Malaysia (Singapore has a much higher GDP per capita and HDI score)
    2 of the best universities in Asia are from Singapore too-
    https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2020

    You can see a similar trend in people from the subcontinent-https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/articles/ethnicitypaygapsingreatbritain/2018
    British Indians have the second highest median hourly pay in GB, and Pakistanis are one of the bottom-most earners.
    Same thing in the US-
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income
    Indian-Americans have the highest median household income, more than twice that of Pakistani-Americans.

    And the Israelis you so love to cry about-
    Israelis alone has won more Nobel Prizes in the sciences than your entire “Islamic Ummah” put together (I’m being generous by including Abdus Salam even though it doesn’t make a difference, and even though other Muslims would call him a non-Muslim), let alone their Arab neighbours.

    What’s next? Gonna call me an Islamophobe for pointing out facts?

      1. Why do you have to go several centuries back in time? Why can’t you speak about the present?

        We both live in the 21st century, yes? What’s stopping you from talking about the present? Or do you always plan on hiding in the past?

        The fact that you have to go way back to the 9th century alone shows that you’ve lost already.

        Let me guess, you’re here to preach about the “Islamic golden age”? Where a lot of propagation of knowledge was being labelled as invention? There are tons of articles and sources that debunked several inventions Muslims claimed to come up with, I’m sure you’re smart enough to look them up (I don’t mind posting the sources here if you’re not).

        Bertrand Russell sums it up best though-
        “Arabic philosophy is not important as original thought. Men like Avicenna and Averroes are essentially commentators. Speaking generally, the views of the more scientific philosophers come from Aristotle and the Neoplatonists in logic and metaphysics, from Galen in medicine, from Greek and Indian sources in mathematics and astronomy, and among mystics religious philosophy has also an admixture of old Persian beliefs. Writers in Arabic showed some originality in mathematics and in chemistry; in the latter case, as an incidental result of alchemical researches. Mohammedan civilization in its great days was admirable in the arts and in many technical ways, but it showed no capacity for independent speculation in theoretical matters. Its importance, which must not be underrated, is as a transmitter.”

        1. Hindus have a glorious heritage in the medical sciences, surgery, mathematics, logic, metaphysics, philosophy, astronomy, linguistics, theology, metallurgy and civic planning. Muslims have made no seminal contributions to these fields in comparison, with very, very few exceptions, and even these “Scientists” simply added their own observations onto a body of knowledge that was built up by non-Muslims. Anyone can read the actual historical record and come to this conclusion.

    1. have*

      And I don’t know if you’re the type of Muslim who actually believes the whole “Islam is a superior religion” or you merely defend Islam because you were born in a Muslim family, but whichever it is, I hope you can see why many people don’t respect Islam.

      Just because someone on this blog doesn’t like Islam doesn’t automatically make them a Hindutvadi or Islamophobe or whatever else. Everyone has their own reasons and many of those reasons are very much valid.

      Grow up.

      1. It was a facetious comment to match yours.

        You are comparing Indians and Pakistanis like they are Germans and Swedes. They are a collection of different castes, the castes lower down the totem pole in the sub-continent converted to Islam. Why is it a surprise that high IQ Brahmins in the West are performing well in cognitively demanding fields? Naipaul, Sen, Raman, Bannerji, Tagore, Raman and Chandrasekhar were all Brahmins. The only non-Brahmin Indian Nobel laureates are Khorana (Arora) and Mother Teresa.

        The number of Nobel Prizes won by Dalits and OBCs Hindus who comprise 40 to 50% of the Indian population is zero. So please don’t crow about Indian\Hindu specialness and Pakistani inferiority. The relative performance was baked in by who their ancestors were.

        1. What a foolish observation.

          If we go by your logic, which implies that Brahmin ancestry in India lends itself to intellectual exceptionalism (a very tenuous claim for reasons I wont expand on here) then how do you explain the fact that Pakistanis are such lightweights in comparison? After all, they possess far more of the “West Eurasian” ancestry (on average) that makes Brahmins different from the OBCs and Dalits in the subcontinent. Also, many of those people that you claim are Brahmins, for all we know, are nothing more than Brahmins in title alone — even Razib touched on this in the past, when he posted a picture of Chandrashekhar as an ostensible “Brahmin” implying that caste dynamics aren’t as obvious as they seem. His autosomal profile could’ve easily been closer to that of the many hundreds of millions of OBCs that he resembles facially. Either way, your point is deeply flawed and incorrect.

          1. no, iyers are iyers. they’re very distinct.

            that being said, lots of tambrams look quite ‘dravidian’.

            perhaps we need not go down the “what west eurasian %” direction on this thread again? it gets tiresome.

          2. Absolutely, such discussions end up being redundant.

            I also agree with your observation about some looking “Quite Dravidian” which ostensibly explains why Chandrasekhar himself, the genius that he was, still faced discriination in London when he was a scholar there. He believed Arthur Eddington’s public ridicule of his Chandrasekhar limit was partly racially motivated. His appearance certainly did him no favors, at least to those that are bigoted.

        2. Is it really set in stone that high IQ people will prevail in academics. That way we are all screwed because Yellow people, Gora people and Yahoodis all have stunning IQs. And Brahmins are not producing enough babies themselves or in inter-caste/religion marriages to take all of us up. And obviously not many high IQ people are coming in to intermarry with us and settle here.

          And if it is indeed a clear disadvantage, by how much is it possible to change the academic game in our (low IQ people’s) favor? i.e. more meat in diet, eradicating malnutrition, sanitisation, more intensive math-tutoring, inculcating-creativity. Indians already have the culture part figured out. I don’t think anyone in the world values academic achievement as much as Indians (especially Bengalis) do so we will never run out of people willing to put in the work.

          Also, Is creativity even measured by IQ tests? I have seen pretty smart people (photographic memory, good at mathematical manipulation, abstraction etc) suck at research because they have no originality ,integrity… . Also tenacity is something that can be adopted as a cultural value. Keep repeating stories of how Indians never give up and perhaps in time they will believe and adopt it. Giving up meat (medieval equivalents of Chick-fil-A) must not have been easy or enjoyable but with enough propaganda people did make lasting life-style changes for their values (non-violence).

          Indians seem to me a easily gullible people, tell them to worship XYZ god and they will do it unquestioningly, tell them gramodyog is good and they will start spinning charkha. Modi has shown how much people can be swung for good with his sanitation and subsidy-surrendering (where millions of people voluntarily gave up handouts) drive. So if we can somehow fake our way into making tenacity and creativity national values good things might come from it.

          Again, I am not questioning IQ’s validity, it is ignorance to deny its predictive prowess nor am I being a racist (why would I?). I just want to know what how can a low-IQ society win at this game? How best can we make our moves? Our best (think Razib type people) are moving to the US in hordes what can we do to beat Yellow and Whites.

          1. Once India’s malnutrition, endemic poverty and massive infrastructure problems are addressed, the Flynn effect should kick in and average IQs should rise considerably. At least, theoretically. Time will tell what actually transpires.

          2. Our best (think Razib type people) are moving to the US in hordes what can we do to beat Yellow and Whites.

            this is far less true in the past from talking to indian undergrads and grad students. don’t fuck this up.

            also, the west/USA are looking a lot less good. i know NRIs who are quite successful in SV and such who are thinking of moving back.

          3. Most IQ research is based on western (or at least non-Indian) datasets. Let’s not get too bogged down by it.

            As Razib has pointed out, the genetic diversity in a single Indian village can be more than in Europe.

            So how will the nation or civilization perform in aggregate is yet to be seen.

            We have far far too many low hanging fruits before we start to worry about optimizing IQ.

            As APthk said, let us focus on fixing basics like malnutrition and hygiene. And things like getting enough welders in India so that we can have a manufacturing eco-system.

            These things matter in total intellectual output.
            As an example, if you are doing research in solid state physics and your country doesn’t have the manufacturing eco-system to produce the equipment you need then you’ll have to import it at much cost.

            This significantly increases cost of doing research. So you might have fewer people working on it resulting in less output.

            This is apart from the significant R&D investment that large long established private companies themselves will do.

            Dissing on Islam is alright but let’s first get our house in order.

          4. @Razib
            Somewhat old statistics:
            https://www.thequint.com/news/world/indian-students-in-america-favourite-universities#:~:text=An%20estimated%2056.3%20percent%20of,at%20the%20Under%2DGraduate%20level.
            The numbers for brain drain have been continuously increasing. As more and more Indian guys start getting jobs ~10 lakh INR per annum they will save for 4-5 years and move to the US. You should see how easy arranged marriage prospects become for a guy settled in the US. How drastically the (relative) monetary position and quality of life improves for someone who was barely getting anything done in India to someone who is killing it at Adobe, Intel, FB, Google. I have known literally hundreds who were making less than 5 Lakh working half-assedly at a shit kpmg, capegemini etc consultancy job or third rate coding-testing etc who have made the move and now work half-assedly (though still better than Gora people) in bay area. This deluge is unstoppable and every Indian I have talked to says these ‘I am thinking about moving back’ nonsense but hardly any ever do.

          5. IQ is driven by a lot of societal factors. But I think the more intresting question is why have certain groups been able to build societies that foster high IQs while others have not? I don’t think Indians are dumber than other groups but other groups have built the societies that allow us to thrive. We haven’t built them ourselves.

        3. Nice to see that the only that went through Ali Choudhury’s head is “India-Pakistan” and all he inferred was that I’m apparently trying to establish some “Indian/Hindu” supremacy thing here.

          Is it really that hard to understand that I’m speaking about the lack scientific temper in the Islamic world?

          Your whole argument is hilarious. You’re trying to say “most of your achievements are due to Brahmins”, while I’m pointing out that “you barely even have any achievements”.

          And you answered the whole Brahmins (Tamil Brahmins to be exact) outperforming others rant yourself.

          “The relative performance was baked in by who their ancestors were.”

          Brahmins had better educational and job opportunities in the not-so- distant past and you can see the results now. And the reason why it’s especially Tamils that do well is because there’s a heavy emphasis on education in Tamil Nadu (there may or may not be genetic reasons but I have no idea, you guys are the biology/genetic experts). The main point is that religion isn’t holding anyone back.

          Take a look at ISRO, there are tons of non-Brahmin Tamils, start with the chairam, if you will. There are several others in various different fields too, and naturally their numbers will only increase with time as more and more escape poverty and receive proper education.

          You claim that Pakistanis are outperformed by Indian Brahmins because they’re Muslim converts who were mostly at the bottom-half of the caste hierarchy. Even if this was the true reason, how do you explain the lack of winners from other Islamic countries? I also mentioned Israel and Singapore, did I not? What’s stopping an Islamic country from developing a reputable space program?

          1. “What’s stopping an Islamic country from having a Space Program?”

            The Ummah needs to have a conference in a Bedouin tent to first determine whether or not Space Flight is “Halal”. Only then can they slaughter a Goat and drink Zam-Zam water before getting on with the proceedings. Maybe they’ll stone a couple infidels for entertainment as well.

          2. This right here is an example of classic Islamophobia. All the cliched sterotypes (Bedouin tents, stoning infidels etc). You have already been called out on your racism once and threads have had to be closed because of you. Rarely have I seen such an obnoxious commenter on this forum.

            And Mr. “White-Passing”, learn to read. I only brought up my English Lit degree in the context of a discussion about literaty taste. You completely spun that out of context.

            And you keep bringing up your MCATS. My family has been producing doctors since the time of the British Raj. We’re not lower class parvenus like you. Fuck off.

        4. The relative performance was baked in by who their ancestors were

          The notion that Muslims of India are primarily descendants of lower caste converts is total BS. That is not how conversion worked. Shit loads of Pakistanis go by Rao, Rana, Raja, Rathore, Jaswal etc – clearly Rajput surnames (that Naipaul too commented on in his Among The Believers).

          There has been conversion by Brahmins too and also Banias (Sethis). And in many cases people took fancy Islamicate surnames to blend in. This is esp true in Brahmins where conversion to Islam would’ve meant straight up excommunication.

          There’s not much difference between Pakistanis / Indians / Bangladeshis in ingrained congenital ability (such as it is) to contribute to scholastic / academic pursuits. The difference is cultural.

          1. I think there is no challenge to “Muslims of India are primarily descendants of lower caste converts” in the discourse because it suits both right and left.

            The right cannot fathom that the cream of their people broke ranks and joined the enemy. The left can hail the egalitarian values of Islam. Its, as the say, a convenient theory.

      2. IsThisReal, you point to a real problem. part of it is that the person you are addressing isn’t interested in real history, just buzzwords learned in university to defeat people in arguments. basically, they’re a lexical bot.

        that being said, the direction the conversation is going is not edifying.

        i respect that hindus can have negative feelings toward islam and muslims grounded in real experiences and historical events. but that does not negate the fact that islam was not purely a destructive enterprise, and in its own time it was synthetic and generative.

        the problem in the subcontinent it rejected synthesis, but did not have the power to swallow indian culture (as it did with iran turan egypt and mesopotamia). so we’re at an impasse.

        p.s. APthk, traditionally hindu medicine still has a subsection for the study of the ‘yavannas’, which is basically islamo-galenic medicine.

    2. Islam is the “most flawed”? The Hindu caste system is the most disgusting institution ever and has no place in the 21st century. There is no concept of “untouchability” in Islam.

      As for Israel, winning Nobel prizes doesn’t absolve it of being a settler-colonial state and constantly stealing Palestinian land. Please learn some basic argumentation.

      Finally, merely having certain stereotypes about Islam doesn’t automatically make someone a Hindutvadi but coupled with other things like defending the destruction of Babri and advocating for CAA, it’s enough to be able to gage someone’s political position.

    3. Actually Islam and Judaism are very closely related in terms of elements,concepts and practices. But Judaism is directly related to having Jewish ancestry whereas islam does not have such things. Jews are an ethno-religious group whereas muslims are culturally,ethnically and racially very diverse. So comparing Jews with members of a universal global religion like islam/Christianity is improper.

    1. Fazlur Khan AKA “The Einstein of Structural Engineering” and “The greatest structural engineer of the 20th century” was a Bangladeshi. His designs underly everything from the WTC to the Sears Tower to the Burj Khalifa. He wasn’t a Brahmin, and though he was a (converted) Muslim, he made seminal contributions to the discipline of structral engineering. The whole idea that only Brahmins are capable of intellectual genius is just hilarious. Even Islam hasn’t affected the ability of other subcontinentals to make an indelible impact on the course of history. Makes you wonder what is going on in the “Land of the Pure” — any ideas?

      1. Forgot to add, Sal Khan of Khan academy (widely regarded as a pedagogical genius) thanks in large part to whom I was able to perform admirably on the MCAT, is also Bangaldeshi. Of course we can’t forget the greatest Khan himself, Razib. Intellectual heavyweights abound.
        -Long time fan.

        1. His father was Bangladeshi, mother is Indian.

          His dad divorced his mother when he was quite young, he was raised by his mother. And he’s married to a Pakistani, if I’m not mistaken

          South Asian or Bengali would be more appropriate.

          1. Bengalis in general, along with Bangladeshis, are very, very smart from what I have observed personally in the diaspora. Some people in my extended family work at the World Bank, and they have had interactions with Koushik Basu, the chief economist there — they say he is perhaps the most humble yet smartest person they have ever met.

            One of my best friends at the moment is also from Bangladesh, and is in a MD-PhD program at the instituion I am currently attending. He didn’t know about Razib until I introduced him to his work. He is also a fan. Reminds me of the Mandarin Oriental media campaign — perhaps we could something similar for Razib and his large fan base?

    2. Seems like Baidya is an exclusive Bengali caste. Never came across doctors being a separate caste in N-India. Brahmins are the Baidyas of N-India.

    3. Yes but Amartya Sen who specifically won the Nobel Prize comes from a group which self identifies as Brahmin.

  14. I also agree with your observation about some looking “Quite Dravidian” which ostensibly explains why Chandrasekhar himself, the genius that he was, still faced discriination in London when he was a scholar there. He believed Arthur Eddington’s public ridicule of his Chandrasekhar limit was partly racially motivated. His appearance certainly did him no favors, at least to those that are bigoted.

    both chandra and ramanujan were ‘wheatish’ and lacked ‘sharp features’ (these are not terms i knew growing up in usa so hope using them right). chandra talked extensively about racism faced in the USA, which was worse than UK i think (parts of the border states were still segregated and ppl tried to put him in black areas…they just had to not go to this part of the country).

    of course, even if they were light-skinned khatris these tambrahms would have faced prejucide in the west of the time.

    google what LBJ thought when he met the leaders of south asia in the 1960s. even the pakistanis he felt uncomfortable around because they were ‘white black men’ (i’m paraphrasing, basically brown skin + caucasian features).

  15. my assessment of kabir is he’s basically a typical college graduate who deploys buzzwords to silence interlocutors. when it doesn’t work out here he is always in eternal shock.

    my wife is reading about american education was destroyed by the fixation on teaching people ‘how to think’ rather than facts. kabir is a classic example of this. he just doesn’t evince much knowledge of many things, but he has lots of dumb Theories in his head, which he deploys in nonsensical ways.

    but in his real life i’m sure this works, because most of his acquaintances are probably above average intelligence people who know ‘how to think’ (read: buzzwords) and just play that game. it doesn’t work when you meet someone who knows a lot of shit.

    i know a lot of shit. don’t come at me with the light-saber you purchased with a $50,000 year tuition at a liberal arts college which will give you a gentleman’s B for bullshitting.

    i read those books. and i read the books in the footnotes.

    1. That was savage. And perfectly apt and accurate. Kabir is probably suffering from PTSD after that rout. Bet he will take some time to recover before he comes back with more of his BS. Don’t let us down Kabir, your “degree in English literature” will come in handy in your attempts to shit all over this blog. Please be my guest and show us how much you “learned” in college.

      1. Was I even addressing you? Who the hell do you think you are personally attacking me? I have been here far longer than you. You are one of the most racist and obnoxious commenters I have encountered here yet.

        Since you’re so impressed by the World Bank, my father had a long career there. I grew up in Bethesda.

        If you don’t want hinduism to be disrespected, don’t attack Islam.

        1. Also, I’m endlessly fascinated by the amount of time you people spend discussing me. I woke up this morning and looked at this thread and it’s all “kabir this, kabir that”. Glad to know I’m so important.
          And the attacks from Mr “white passing” himself. That’s just pathetic.

          I have zero interest in even discussing Hinduism. But if you come after my religion you can best believe I’m going to come after yours. Don’t bring up Pakistan or Islam and I won’t comment here.

    2. Do you have a link to the article you mentioned your wife reading about how American education was changed to be focused away from facts?

  16. also, in kabir’s ‘defense’, though he comes off gauche now and then, he is not a deep hinduphobe or anything like that. he can’t help the stuff he says cuz that’s deeply ingrained in muslim s. asian culture, and some of the stuff is reactive to his rather childish nominal islam.

    i dislike it when he tries to be intellectual. but when his decency kicks in he has that there. so give the shaitan his due.

  17. Bengalis in general, along with Bangladeshis, are very, very smart from what I have observed personally in the diaspora. Some people in my extended family work at the World Bank, and they have had interactions with Koushik Basu, the chief economist there — they say he is perhaps the most humble yet smartest person they have ever met.

    we’re good talkers. makes us seem brighter tbh

  18. one of the things i’m feeling right now is weary of the anti-islam stuff i’m one of them objectively (apostate). the thing is SJW-maoism is going back to year zero. all traditional civilizations are superior to year zero. all

  19. Bengalis and Gujus are so similar but so different. Always fun talking to my Bengali friends

    1. Gujju is the anti-bengali of the subcontinent and vice versa. Literally take everything which gujju hates and create an ethnicity, and that will be a bong and vice versa

    1. Bengali food >>> Gujarati food. Kosha Mangsho is a prime example. Chingri Malai Curry and lucchi is heavenly. And who can forget Kati Rolls? All-time favorite.

      1. as i said on the podcast with decruz my kids are totally whitewashed and i don’t care. except the food part. perhaps one day we’ll go to brownland and eat that stuff.

        west bengal more likely than bdesh since i’m atheist

        1. I’ve only eaten Bengali food at outlets in New Delhi, and these aforementioned dishes were some of the highlights I encountered. But I’m sure Kolkata has even more delicacies that I am not aware of. I definitely recommend a trip to brownland though, especially now that Oberoi, Taj and ITC have a plethora of hotels across the region that would satisfy the whims and desires of even the most discerning traveler. I plan on visiting the homeland later this year, once COVID-related travel restrictions are lifted. Its been a while since I ate the Skindari Raan at Bukhara and the Butter Chicken at Gulati. Or the Chilli Chicken at Ichiban, Pandara Road. Best food I’ve ever eaten. My palate misses that stuff on a daily basis.

  20. re: brain drain, you need to see %. not absolute numbers. my understanding reading econ lit is that brain-drain is not a big thing for big countries (india, china) but is for small countries.

  21. I think folks are being too tough on Kabir. Frankly i dont see much difference in his views on Hinduism and what lot of us have abt Islam, subconsciously or otherwise. Its in the same ballpark i would say.

    1. There are around 15 regular commentators here. On any given day, there’s a high chance at least one would be bored and looking to troll.

      Kabir falls for it every time – hook, line, and sinker.

      That’s part of what makes him interesting.

      But he doesn’t let go and replies to every single remark that has ‘Islam’ or ‘Pakistan’ mentioned in it. So much so that one has to tip toe around these keywords lest one invokes his wrath.

      This becomes really spammy and I’ve developed a sort of selective blindness to his posts.

      These past couple of weeks, I was extremely bored and engaged with him leading to some unsavoury comments and spam.

      I’d like to desist from it in the future.

  22. this seems plausible. i don’t read a lot of his comments closely anymore.

    that being said, his demand (made a while back) that non-muslims do “PUBH” is obnoxious. also, he proactively made fun of taking hindu myths seriously for historical value. which is totally fair. but, he flips his shit when you do the same to islamic scripture.

    i think over time he’s gotten more “fair” and even-handed here because of the blowback of casual anti-hindu things which even secular muslim subcontinentals will say privately.

    1. Kabir reminds me of those “educated liberals” in America that cry foul about the dogmeat festival in Yulin, then turn around and lampoon most Indian Hindus for NOT eating Beef. The irony is palpable. And HILARIOUS.

  23. https://www.outlookindia.com/website/story/opinion-why-hagia-sophia-turkey-and-charismatic-figure-of-erdogan-bristles-with-resonances-for-india/356503?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=tw&utm_campaign=amp

    Why Hagia Sophia, Turkey And The Charismatic Figure Of Erdogan Bristle With Resonances For India

    “More fundamentally, the failing secularism of Turkey and India begs the question: is secularism even possible in non-Christian/non-Western societies? Without the Western experiences of Reformation and the Enlightenment, hard-fought victories as they were, can non-Western societies value the principles of freedom and secularism? Why is it that, unlike in the West where democratisation and secularism went hand in hand, greater democratisation has seemed to only bring religious chauvinism in India and Turkey?

    The answers to these questions are perhaps disturbing, and cannot be obscured by the charge of ‘Eurocentrism’, which has long been used to justify reactionary leaders. But what is clear is that the modern ‘reconquests’ of religious structures are not being effected by sultans and generals, but by the democratic “will of the majority”. Historical wounds are being opened afresh, and nations being made anew. Both the processes are linked, of course, and values of liberal humanism are offering little resistance.”

    1. More fundamentally, the failing secularism of Turkey and India begs the question: is secularism even possible in non-Christian/non-Western societies?

      a bit on the stupid side. east asian societies can do secularism cuz they did it before the west. china korea and japan all beat down organized religions when they got too big for their britches.

      the question is a real one in MENA & india because religion is constitutive of identity. it is not in NE asia.

      1. Wasn’t it the same in pre Islamic India too? No organized religious institution exercised political power the way church did in Europe, or the way the the theologians exercised influence in Islamic period.

        In my understanding, the state or the community in Indian society was never overawed by religious institutions. They were broadly only engaged in cultural conditioning.

    2. “More fundamentally, the failing secularism of Turkey and India begs the question: is secularism even possible in non-Christian/non-Western societies?”

      ‘Secularism’ is a much abused term in India.

      Hindutva seems a pretty materialist movement to me. It’s not really concerned with theological matters. One could say it is secular.

      It just wishes to re-allocate material resources in a way that benefits a certain group of people.

      We have seen this over and over in Europe and the west.

      Btw Asim would make a good BrownCast guest. He’s seems to be an honest liberal.

      1. I second Prats, Asim will be a good guest. Especially if Omar bhai is on the podcast as well. Pay-per-view 😛

  24. Guju food is good when homemade. Not a fan of a lot of the restaurant stuff. I don’t eat meat, so I can’t have most bengali food.

  25. Going back to genetics what are the ANI-AASI breakdowns for the extreme ends of the subcontinent? I feel like the difference is really not that big.

    1. Jatt_Scythian – I think the differences are actually quite huge. A kerala/tamilnadu tribal is a very different person from a kalasha from chitral.

      Yes technically both have all three of the source populations that make up a modern south asian, but the mix or percentages is skewed so massively at the extremes.

      I wonder if europeans are as heavily skewed at the extremes? I.e. is a Portuguese person as different from a Swede as a south indian is from a jatt? Or are they more similar.

      In either case, most outsiders think of both Portuguese and Swedes as “white” or “european” and most people think of south Indian tribals and Jatts as “brown” or “south asian”.

    1. Thanks. That’s what I understood as well. I’ve spoken to Davidski (I’m a regular at his website), the Reich Lab members (by email) and some other people who actually know what they are doing and have the requisite credentials, along with published research in reputed journals, and they seem to share this notion. Amateurs (some of whom I spoke to here, and others at Anthrogenica, AKA Amateurgenica) who take an incomplete simulated model and then transpose their own amateur insights and analyses onto it just because “it shows a pattern” and suits their narrative, can just keep barking like rabid dogs, won’t change anything. Again, their results are meaningless, for they are mere amateurs with too much time.

      Anyway, I’m done talking to self-proclaimed “experts” without any credentials and credibility, they can email each other and engage in circle jerks all day long, after taking a sound beating from me and others here. Their stubbornness, stupidity and low IQ won’t yield to the truth. I’m just here to listen to Razib. Good evening folks.

    2. Its a parallel to Latin America in terms of West Eurasian % as well, especially for the most West Eurasian South Asian Biradri groups. White Brazilians, or Criollos, are also in the >80% West Eurasian range, and are around ~84-85% West Eurasian IIRC, just like Rors and Hindu Jats.

      Also, it is fair to say that just like Latinos look like Indios, Mestizos, Harnizos, Castizos and Criollos (Pure Whites) in order of least to most West Eurasian ancestry, there is a parallel in South Asia/India where South Asians look like Indigenous Dravidians, Mestizos, Harnizos, Castizos and Criollos(Pure MENA/Central Asians) in order of least to most West Eurasian ancestry. This also comports with my experiences as one of these Criollos, and one can see this clearly in my two albums that I’ve posted. I find it fascinating that White Americans invariably always find it unbelievable that I’m from India, even though I always say that I am, because my face is like that of a “White guy” to them. Anyway, I’ve said enough. Glad to get more perspectives from Razib et al.

  26. Regarding Ali Chaudhry’s comments about the lack of Dalit achievement in sciences compared to that of Brahmins.

    Dalits have been doing increasingly better in India’s competitive exams. Some are studying CS at IIT Bombay, possibly the most competitive degree program in the whole world to get into. They are even starting companies before graduating college, ala Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg.

    https://www.quora.com/profile/Kalpit-Veerwal

    More than the Konkan Railway and Mangalyaan, I would consider these developments as independent India’s greatest achievements.

    1. Cmon, we know what Ali is talking about. And he is not wrong.

      The lack of diversity in achievements of Indian origin folks should be worrying. We can all take solace that dalits are studying in IITs, I guess. The set of people who are champions of Indian industry also happen to be Noble prize winners. The day we really have a blue chip dalit entrepreneur AKA dalit Tata or Ambani we can say we have achieved. Till then its a long road ahead.

      1. “The set of people who are champions of Indian industry also happen to be Noble prize winners.”

        Brahmin and Kshatriya contribution to Indian industry is not very substantial. Indian industry is dominated by the mercantile castes, and in fact most of India’s unicorns are led by Vanias.
        “In 2016, the most common surname of the directors of the companies listed in the National Stock Exchange of India was Agarwal (and its variations). The second most common surname was Gupta. Even in modern-day tech and ecommerce companies, they continue to dominate. It was reported in 2013, that for every 100 in funding for e-commerce companies in India, 40 went to firms founded by an Agrawal. Of a total of 4 startups out of India that have crossed $10 Billion valuation, all except Paytm were founded by an Agrawal.”

        This list is pretty diverse, 3 Hindi Vanias, 1 Gujarati Patidar, 1 Bengali Kayastha from Gujarat (girl), 1 Marathi Brahmin, 2 Telugu Brahmins, 1 Telugu Reddy.
        wwwDOTjagranjoshDOTcom/articles/jee-advanced-2019-toppers-list-name-marks-rank-statistics-1560491698-1.

        Conversely, North Indian Brahmins are especially lacking in achievement, academic or industrial. There is a reason Kartik Tiwari changed his name to Kartik Aryan ….

        1. Yeah u make it seem as that Vania, Brahmin, Kshartiya form 50 percent of India pops or something. If i start subdividing OBCs it might take me next week for it 2 end. Diversity within the same 15 percent is not diversity, i was referring to.

          Again you know what i was referring to.

  27. Regarding the relative lack of science achievers from the core Muslim world in the recent years, this might be a consequence of the lack of a priestly caste in Islam. The Muslim country with the most apparent contribution to science today is Iran, and the Iranian Shia tradition differs from the Sunni in the presence of a priestly order.

  28. Steppe ancestry don’t mean squat for IQ btw. If steppe ancestry and IQ had any correlation, we’d see jats and pashtuns running google and microsoft instead of tambrams.

    Its clear that an upbringing focused on education is the biggest key to success. Brahmins simply have that as a part of their cultural package because that’s been their role in society for thousands of years. Tho to be fair, still doesn’t explain why south indian brahmins in particular are so dominant.

    1. Asians have higher IQs. AASI = Asian ancestry, so it makes sense that more of it would make you smarter, no? Maybe there are diminishing returns after a certain admixture level, but I am not one to make speculations.

  29. Asians have higher IQs. AASI = Asian ancestry, so it makes sense that more of it would make you smarter, no? Maybe there are diminishing returns after a certain admixture level, but I am not one to make speculations.

    1) NE asians

    2) AASI diverged from NE asians (on average) more than 40,000 years ago

    total ancestry is poorly predictive

  30. Here’s my contribution to the Hindu Muslim food fight in the thread.

    There is actually a sect of muslims who are super ballers. They’re called Ismailis I think. I don’t know much about them, but they always come correct whether it’s education, entrepreneurship, or just being straight up classy people. These are my impressions from the interactions I’ve had.

    Whatever it is they’re doing, in terms of culture, seems to be something that other muslims (maybe everyone) should aspire to. Genuine question, why doesn’t the broader islamic community just emulate them?

    1. Non Ishmailis like Sunni Vohras, memons etc do pretty well also.

      I don’t really see a link with religion, expect maybe if it closes people off to the modern body of knowledge.

      I think maybe Christians outperform adjusted for starting socio economic status compared to other religions in India because they are most open to English and Western knowledge. (Not sure)

  31. 25-70% AASI makes sense. Indio to Castizo with most people mestizos and most upper castes harnizos 😉

    1. So its what I thought. Most Indians are 50% to 75% West Eurasian (with some exceptions like the Paniya being 30% West Eurasian and the most western Haryana Jatts being 85% West Eurasian).

      Its interesting what the Paniya look like. I can easily see a 100% AASI population being close to Onge.

      https://live.staticflickr.com/199/535724464_af9a55fa79_z.jpg

      https://c8.alamy.com/comp/WB0RXY/portrait-of-paniya-tribe-in-wayanad-kerala-WB0RXY.jpg

      https://oneeyeland.com/600/152100_one_eyeland_the_paniya_tribe_by_faiyaz_hawawala.jpg

      https://live.staticflickr.com/1787/43483070422_7d6ac44edc_b.jpg

      https://thumbs-prod.si-cdn.com/vCr4DYUz_IEDWnEhQcttYG88wmM=/fit-in/1072×0/https://contest-public-media.si-cdn.com/0598044171986e81c2607a262a9d5046439c9f06.jpg

      They look very different from the Vedas.

      Also a few points in IQ doesn’t really mean shit. NE Asia vs Europe.

      1. this could be selection, but the onge have tightly curled frizzy hair. most indians have straight/wavy hair. even the paniya don’t seem frizzy haired.

        (the onge are descended from ppl related to the hohabanian in SE asia, they came from burma)

      2. Interesting they look quite different from the “Irula” people who are also very high AASI.

        How much genetic diversity was there in within the AASI component in the Indian subcontinent ?

        1. i don’t know.

          there are way more irulas so way more pics. they don’t look THAT different than a lot of south indians tbh (a bit darker and less west eurasian looking)…wondering if jatt_scythian picked atypical paniya images?

      3. It’s interesting how similar these people look like to Australian Aborigines (strongly defined brow ridges, depressed nasal roots and bridge, and some marked cases of alveolar prognathism), but in between AASI-India and Aboriginal Australia there are the Onge and the Papuans, both of whom are much more overtly “Negroid” looking (although Papuans in particular I think can look quite distinctive from African people, I still think on the whole they resemble more Africans than they do Australians).

        I wonder if the original Out of Africa humans phenotypically would have resembled some cross-section of AASI-Onge-Papuan-Australian people.

  32. people have to realize it isn’t as simple as.these components either. But as someone who clusters with S Indian Brahms, I’ll accept the pseudoscience based flattery

  33. Like Mohan said, upbringing is the biggest factor.

    As for South Indians (specifically Tambrahms) doing better: from what I’ve observed, people in Tamil Nadu put a lot more emphasis on quality education. In the north it’s more about somehow getting a high-paying job.

    Knew a Mallu at school (he’s at IISER now) whose goal is to win a Nobel Prize, never heard anybody else speak of such an academically-oriented goal. Everyone else usually just says “doctor” or “engineer” because they either like the profession or just want to make good money.

  34. IQ is driven by a lot of societal factors. But I think the more intresting question is why have certain groups been able to build societies that foster high IQs while others have not? I don’t think Indians are dumber than other groups but other groups have built the societies that allow us to thrive. We haven’t built them ourselves.

    the peasant is the foundation of chinese society. there is no blood nobility. the theory in NE asia is that everyone could (not in practice) become a learned person.

    is this true in india? i see ppl on youtube claim that ancient india had all these schools and universities. but were sudras and dalits (majority of population) allowed to learn the vedas and partake of learning?

    1. There is a book by Dharampal called The Beautiful Tree which documents the percentage of school kids by caste during early colonial times, before the Macaulay introduced English education (1800s). It was documented that 52% of kids came from the broadly called BCs, 20% from Brahmins and the remaining from Kshatriyas and Vaishyas. I am not sure if Shudras were allowed to read Vedas (most likely not), because at the time of documentation, it looks like the medium of instruction was the local language, and sometimes even Farsi and Urdu.

      I’ve heard of Chinese traveler stories who learned Sanskrit before coming to study in Nalanda. Given that Nalanda had a huge Buddhist influence, I am inclined to think Shudras were attending them.

      1. Yea Buddhist and Jain schools of knowledge were open.

        Within Hinduism Yogic Siddhas, Shaiva Nayanmars etc included lots of Dalits and shudras.

        Orthodox Vedic and Vaishnavaite traditions (pre-Bhakti reforms) restricted to Brahmins. Who had asymmetric advantage as you could be a Brahmin and a Siddha and a Buddhist. And have access to all three traditions of knowledge. But one couldn’t get access to the Brahmin tradition unless born into the fold.

        I don’t know how much this has to do with economics. Non caste ridden areas like Sindh, and Bangladesh aren’t significantly different in economic performance.

    2. I can answer from a Kerala context. Shaankara smRti is a document outlining the customs and rituals unique to Kerala (smRtis are usually region-specific). A major part of this book is devoted to the conduct of Brahmins. However, there are a few references to the other communities. Under a chapter titled Education, it says that “even though Brahmins, Kshatriyas and Vaishyas in other regions, after their thread-wearing ceremony, engage in Vedic studies, here in Kerala, only Brahmins are allowed to study Vedas”. In a different chapter, it says that “Shudras should be learned in Sanskrit, but not Shaastras”. I do not know how well this was followed by other communities, but the customs in the book were definitely followed by Brahmins. The book also, interestingly, lists 64 customs unique to Kerala (like, disallowing widow-burning).

      To summarize, Brahmins seemed to have kept Vedas exclusively to themselves. But education seemed to have been encouraged for other varnas. In fact, as early as 15th century, we have the presence of non-Brahmin poets, medics, etc in Malayalam who had a good knowledge of Sanskrit.

      I do have an e-copy of Saankara smRti. It is in Malayalam, though.

  35. Asim Alim asks whether secularism is possible in non-Christian/non-Western countries.

    More fundamentally, the failing secularism of Turkey and India begs the question: is secularism even possible in non-Christian/non-Western societies? Without the Western experiences of Reformation and the Enlightenment, hard-fought victories as they were, can non-Western societies value the principles of freedom and secularism? Why is it that, unlike in the West where democratisation and secularism went hand in hand, greater democratisation has seemed to only bring religious chauvinism in India and Turkey?

    https://www.outlookindia.com/website/story/opinion-why-hagia-sophia-turkey-and-charismatic-figure-of-erdogan-bristles-with-resonances-for-india/356503

  36. Hinduism is not going to last until the 22nd century. Only Islam and Christianity will make it.

    1. How do you make 80 year predictions? Anyhow as a general rule history is full of unpredictable things. Things which no one imagined may be around the corner

  37. Guess Razib is right when he says “part of it is that the person you are addressing isn’t interested in real history, just buzzwords learned in university to defeat people in arguments. basically, they’re a lexical bot.”

    All I got was whataboutism, points that were already acknowledged being brought up, aggressiveness (because they think it’s some sort of superiority contest) and zero acknowledgement of my main point, which was about lack of scientific temper.

    1. You can’t call Islam the “most backward” when your own faith (I assume you are Hindu) theologically justifies the caste system. Your “Laws of Manu” are utterly disgusting. And you have the gall to criticize the Holy Quran? And who gave you the authority to decide which religion is the “most backward” anyway?

      Hinduism also justifies widow-burning and stuff like that. Muslim women can remarry after their husband’s death (after going through an “iddat” period in order to verify paternity).

      Your argument about Jews and Nobel Prizes is completely ridiculous. As if Nobel Prizes justify settler-colonialism and breaking International Law.

      You’re just a stupid Islamophobe. You people just want to trash Islam since that gives you jollies for some reason.

      1. “You can’t call Islam the “most backward” when your own faith (I assume you are Hindu) theologically justifies the caste system.”

        Many people already acknowledged the caste part on this blog before and I VERY CLEARLY said that each religion has its own flaws.

        I admit that caste is a huge problem in certain places and needs to be fixed, but you really need to stop acting delusional and get off your high horse. I personally don’t like discussing caste because talking about something that you want to get rid of seems very counter-intuitive.

        If you’ve lived in the subcontinent for as long as I have, you would feel stupid about making that statement. You think only Hindus practice the caste system? Lol

        I’ve seen many Muslims from northern India treat the Dravidian Muslims like they’re inferior time and again. Sikhism has quite a bit of casteism too (mostly the Jatts from what I’ve seen). Haven’t met a whole lot of Christians (even though my close friend is Christian) so can’t really say much about them.

        The issues with caste are mainly societal/cultural rather than religious, if it were religious then I don’t see any reason for it to be present among other religions in the subcontinent. If you wanna blame Hinduism for it then maybe you should ask yourself why Muslims practice it too even today. No Hindu is forcing you to follow it.

        Deep Bhatnagar provided several sources that show the prevalence of the caste system among Muslims in the subcontinent-
        https://www.brownpundits.com/2018/06/05/shudra-american-doctor-speaks-out/

        And please don’t bring up your garbage “the Holy Quran doesn’t speak about caste” standard argument, everyone here knows that Muslims practice it too. And I’m sure I won’t have to remind you about the whole “sons of Muhammad” (Ashrafs) being called superior compared to “low-born people” (Ajlafs). Gonna blame Hinduism for this too? Or was Ziauddin Barani some sort of undercover Hindu trying to infiltrate Islam?

        “Hinduism also justifies widow-burning and stuff like that. Muslim women can remarry after their husband’s death (after going through an “iddat” period in order to verify paternity).”

        What’s next, somebody’s gonna bash the Church for burning people accused of “witchcraft”?
        Ever heard of “reformations”? Do you see the majority modern-day Hindus practicing Sati?
        Fun fact- Saudi Arabia is the only country today where “witchcraft & sorcery” is legally punishable by death.

        And since you seem to care so much about marginalization and all, care to speak about Ahmadis and Shia (especially Ahmadis and Shia Hazaras )? Many of them flee from Pakistan and Afghanistan to India.

        I remember you posted a report about a Dalit groom being beaten somewhere in India not so long ago for sitting on a horse or something like that. A Shia Hazara wedding was bombed less than a year ago-
        https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/bloody-suicide-attack-on-kabul-wedding-kills-at-least-63/2019/08/18/ace5f0d4-c17d-11e9-a5c6-1e74f7ec4a93_story.html

        Hazars are already a persecuted group in Afghanistan, and being Shia only makes things worse-
        “The extremist Sunni militia described the man as a Pakistani named Abu Asim who had attacked a gathering of ­“rejecter polytheists,” as the group describes followers of ­Shiite Islam.”

        And I don’t think I even need to speak about how Ahmadis are treated, the overwhelming majority of the Islamic world treats them very harshly. There are loads and loads of cases of Ahmadis being killed mercilessly and having their mosques burned down. It’s so bad that they aren’t even completely safe in western places like the UK-
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ahmadis#United_Kingdom

        Do you see such levels of anti-lower-caste stuff being actively published and circulated in the UK by upper-caste Hindus? When was the last time you heard about someone handing out leaflets that called for the killing of all lower-caste people?

        “Your argument about Jews and Nobel Prizes is completely ridiculous. As if Nobel Prizes justify settler-colonialism and breaking International Law.”

        No, you’re ridiculous, I can’t help but call you a dumb piece of shit at this point, sorry about that.
        I was merely trying to point differences between Islamic and non-Islamic neighbours, I also pointed out Singapore and Malaysia, did I not?
        I wasn’t using this as some territorial argument whatsoever, that’s an entirely different debate. I was comparing Israel with the rest of the middle-east in terms of scientific achievements, that is all. The fact that you can’t see anything beyond “Jew bad, Israel evil” is both sad and laughable.

        1. South Asian Muslims practice caste because we were influenced by the larger Hindu society. South Asian Christians practice caste as well as Sujatha Gidla pointed out in her book “Ants Among Elephants”. However, Islam doesn’t THEOLOGICALLY justify caste. Our religion teaches us that all Muslims are equal in the eyes of Allah. Yours teaches you that Brahmins were born from god’s head and Shudras from his feet. Caste is the central feature of Hinduism (its original sin). It is not a central feature of Islam.

          “Ashraf” doesn’t mean “sons of Muhammad”. I don’t know where you got that nonsense from. The word comes from “shurafa” meaning nobility.

          You all were practicing sati up until the British banned it. Even afterwards, widows lived in ashrams and had miserable lives. We’ve all seen Deepa Mehta’s “Water”. Islam was revealed in the 7th century and widow remarriage was allowed from the very beginning. Islam gave women the right to divorce.

          We’re not talking about sectarian violence here so bringing up Shia and Hazara is irrelevant.

          Of course, there is a lack of scientific achievement in the Muslim world. However Nobel Prizes don’t whitwash Zionist crimes.

          You are an incorrigible Islamophobe. Keep digging yourself into a hole.

          1. “South Asian Muslims practice caste because we were influenced by the larger Hindu society.”

            Blaming Hinduism for your own shortcomings as usual. Like I said, nobody is forcing any Muslim to follow the caste system. You obviously haven’t seen how Muslims in the subcontinent treat each other, no wonder you’re so deluded and what not. Even if they removed every mention of caste tomorrow from every article and piece of paper, people in the subcontinent, regardless of their religion, will still follow it to a certain extent.

            “You all were practicing sati up until the British banned it. Even afterwards, widows lived in ashrams and had miserable lives. We’ve all seen Deepa Mehta’s “Water”. Islam was revealed in the 7th century and widow remarriage was allowed from the very beginning.”

            You can’t possibly get any cheaper than this. Always living in the past and refusing to acknowledge the fact that modern-day Hindus don’t practice Sati, if you’re gonna bash Hinduism for this then I guess it’s fair that we all get to call your prophet a disgusting pedophile, don’t start whining about it now, you’re the one who set the tone here. Last time someone called him a pedophile on this blog you began whining like a little kid.

            “We’re not talking about sectarian violence here so bringing up Shia and Hazara is irrelevant.”
            Not at all. It’s very much relevant. Just because it’s sectarian doesn’t change jackshit. Stop trying to hide. You spoke about the mistreatment of a certain group of people and so did I, nobody said it can’t be sectarian.

            You very well know that Ahmadis are treated in an extremely inhumane manner in tons of places, doesn’t matter if it’s a rural or urban area. Even though India provides them the freedom to call themselves Muslims (unlike certain other intolerant countries), Sunnis still try to harass them.

            Go ahead and let me know when was the last time you saw a lower-caste wedding being bombed that led to 90+ people being killed, I’ll wait. Also, let me know if you ever came across leaflets asking for the death of lower-caste people being handed out in the UK.

            “Of course, there is a lack of scientific achievement in the Muslim world. ”
            Good to see you finally admit that Islam is a major obstacle in the way of science (compared to other religions at least).

            “However Nobel Prizes don’t whitwash Zionist crimes.”
            As I very clearly mentioned already, I’m not talking about the territorial dispute, that’s an entirely different topic, can’t understand why it’s so hard for you to get that through your head. Out of curiosity, are you parents cousins by any chance?

            “You are an incorrigible Islamophobe. Keep digging yourself into a hole.”
            I guess I finally understand why most people here just go around throwing the word pedophile and desert cult and don’t bother posting a whole lot of facts to get their point across, you’re deluded and stubborn as hell.

          2. Are you stupid? It’s not that difficult to understand the difference between a religion that THEOLOGICALLY justifies Caste (as the disgusting “Laws of Manu” do) and one which explictly insists that all believers are equal in Allah’s eyes. All Muslims can pray together in mosques. We have no concept of “untouchables” polluting temples. South Asian Muslim culture has been influenced by the majority Hindu society. That’s simply a fact.

            It’s not “bashing” Hinduism to point out that you all were treating women very badly up until fairly recently in History. Islam was revealed in thr 7th century yet there was no concept of widows being killed. Islam gave women the right to divorce in which case the husband had to pay back the “haq mehar”. It’s foolish to argue that it was not a progressive religion for its time.

            Again, sectarian violence is not the topic. Don’t deflect.

            Talking about my parents being cousins is completely below the belt and unacceptable (and no they’re not. We don’t do that in my family).

            Settler-colonialism is not a “territorial dispute”. If you had any intelligence you’d understand that distinction. And arguing about Nobel Prizes is a bad argument.

            You are an extremely stupid and bigoted asshole. I’m done with you. But don’t pretend to be some injured neutral party. You’ve revealed the depths of your Islamophobia.

  38. 1. there is much more to south indian brahmin landscape than just tambrams. kannada and telugu brahmins are also good in many ways, but are not always vocal and ‘don’t sell themselves’ like tambrams.
    in any case americans will have a half a tambram as their vp in 4 months time!!!.
    2. me feels that north indians can improve their iq by eating curd rice with a small lemon pickle.

  39. Y’all need to be reminded of the contributions the South made to Hinduism as we recognize it today, including…

    – Bhakti movements (so much literature)

    – Shankara (the man), advaita philosophy

    – Ramanuja, (vashishtadvaita philosophy)

    – Madhva (dvaita philosophy)

    – Vijayanagara Empire

    – Sayana, in the Vijayanagara Empire, who gives us some of the latest medieval commmentaries

    – Sarvadarshanasangraha, a great explication of all Indian philosophies

    – Beautiful temples.

    Just saying. Hindutva is working because of localization. Don’t get all chauvinistic.

    In some ways, parts of South India feels the most Hindu. Unexpected parts, too.

    1. I always felt more Hindu/Dharmic compared to my North Indian counterparts. I attended NIT-Calicut where top 1-2 percentile of India goes to school. You’ll get to meet people from every part of the country and a few Lankans, Bangladeshis also. Knowledge of Ithihaasas, Puranas of North Indian folk was abysmal at best. They were so disconnected to Dharma! However, they showed the attitude of a typical BJP supporter.

      1. “ Knowledge of Ithihaasas, Puranas of North Indian folk was abysmal at best. They were so disconnected to Dharma! ”

        People who own the religion, do not need to justify it. It’s like asking Arabs about Islam.

        As Hoju said the south has “contributed”. The north birthed the religion

    2. Agree with Hoju. Add Vallabhacharya from Telangana to the list – the man behind the Vaishnava transformation of Gujarat and Rajasthan(?)

    1. Best of luck to UAE’s mars mission, first Arab space mission.

      It would be interesting to know the contribution of UAE/Arab states in this venture – is it simply buying off the shelf technology from another country , or was the major components like rockets, satellites, navigation system , etc designed in UAE etc

      Acc to Wikipedia “According to an estimate by the World Bank, the UAE’s population in 2018 stands at 9.543 million. Expatriates and immigrants account for 88.52% while Emiratis make up the remaining 11.48%”

      Sometimes I think small authoritarian arab sheikhdoms are interested in paying lip service to modernity by buying things off the shelf or Collect Trophy like ‘collecting’ M.F.Hussien at the age of 90 as he was an internationally known painter

      However, UAE plays it’s part in the world economy in this way.

      1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirates_Mars_Mission

        “The spacecraft orbiter is a planned mission to Mars to study the Martian atmosphere and climate built by the Mohammed bin Rashid Space Centre, University of Colorado, Arizona State University, and University of California, Berkeley.”

        “The spacecraft was built at the Laboratory for Atmospheric and Space Physics, at the University of Colorado at Boulder and will be launched from Japan.”

        Looks more like American universities built one for them. Not surprised in the slightest.

        1. Honestly we (Indians) don’t have the strength or mandate to adjudicate on matters of allocating national prestige. I am in if for the sparkles and the fireworks and any opportunity that we can get out of it. After all it is their money to spend(or waste) and nothing we say or do will make them smarter or dumber so why even bother scrutinizing .

          I am happy either ways, whether they learned something out of making it with Americans or if they hired Americans wholesale. I have met a few Emiratis and a lot of Egyptians that are world class at engineering so they might have trained their own(or other Arabs) and absorbed a lot of the skills. If not then there are always Indians to be hired. We should be simply grateful for any opportunities Emiratis will eventually give us.

          1. @Bhimrao,
            agreed. make the best use of opportunities available. I am for rich people spending as much money around the world on whatever strikes their fancy for a good Keynesian pump strategy

        2. Unfair to beat up UAE for collaborating with the US for a Mars Mission. It is a tiny country – basically a collection of city states with a super limited human resource available. If they want to diversify into high-end engineering more power to them.

          It is *always* a good thing when humans from diverse cultures come together to problem solve (whatever the optics of the situation).

          1. \Arab Singapore\
            Much worse; mostly a rentier state you can do any business as long as there is local Arab partner who naturally gets half the profit for being there and you do the heavy work. Workers have to live in 15 guys in a small shed with no rights. No questions asked as to how you make money or how much money you make as long as the local gets his cut.
            I believe Singapore is less rentier with less brazen exploitation

          2. Not really being harsh.

            UAE has a higher GDP per capita than many space-faring nations and also a very good HDI score. Israel has a better HDI score but has a smaller population and a much lower GDP per capita, and they’ve done quite well in space, doesn’t see any reason for UAE to struggle. Nevertheless, better late than never, good for them.

            I personally expect something from South-East Asia too, large population, better GDP per capita than India and somewhat varying HDI scores.

            Have no clue about central Asian countries or what to expect though.

      2. Some comments on buying off the shelf stuff.
        I know for a fact that ISRO buys all the clever top tier stuff like Synthetic Aperture Radars for RISATs off the shelf from Israel Aerospace Industries and in case of perpetually delayed ISRO-NASA NISAR the radar is made by JPL+Northrop. Same is the case for top-tier imaging cameras that are bought off the shelf from the US. Our future rocket (for Unified Launch Vehicle) engines are Ukrainian and despite whatever lies people tell the cryogenic engines were ‘Made in India'(by Russians).

        Emiratis are starting out in the big-ego-space-guys club let us hope that they will like us enough and hand us a lot of their money in exchange for our expertise.

    2. Kudos to the UAE. We need all the investment in Space that we can get.

      Their government that realizes the days of relying on oil are limited and are trying to build a more sustainable economy.

      The crown prince also recently gifted land for the construction of a Hindu temple…

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-teung6U8XQ

  40. I come from a Tam Brahm background and I do believe the cultural values are more important than anything else. I think South Indian Brahmin’s basic values of honesty, integrity and hard work are the base layers and go beyond IQ. I grew up in Mumbai in the 1970s and early 80s and my parents would buy 2 newspapers (TOI and IE) and the family would fight for the newspapers every single day. We were avid readers of any reading material available including my grandmother who likely was born in the 1890s. If there were two Tam Brahms in a room, you had three opinions. So, it is not about schooling, it is what is going on outside the classroom. We will learn more about epigenetics in the next decades and we will recognize it’s importance in brain function and wiring – i.e. nurture is nature.
    I think our genes are the same, it is what we do with it and how our brains ‘wire or rewire themselves’ that matters.

  41. IsThisReal taking it back to 2012, with the, “I’m 15 and just watched a Sam Harris youtube video” takes.

    1. Nice, another one.

      Calling me 15 and assuming that I watch Sam Harris totally refuted everything I said.

      Shows your level of maturity, grow up tbh.

  42. Don’t know how many of you read about her abduction when the report came out last year, but it was her case where the Sindh High Court declared that if a girl has had her first menstrual cycle, she can be married (going against a law that was previously in place)-

    Apparently she’s pregnant now and still no freedom in sight, she was kidnapped in October 2019-
    https://www.indcatholicnews.com/news/39994

    1. If people are going to attack Islam, they best believe I’m going to go after their Hinduism. Other than that, I’m a very chill person. But don’t attack my country or my religion.

        1. It’s not one person. People on this site have a regular habit of trashing Islam.

          If you’re going to trash my religion, you better be prepared for me to dish it out.

          1. That’s up to you, but just know that you are then engaging in the same identitarian mudslinging you accuse the others of engaging in.

            It’s the way of the world I suppose everyone feels attacked by other groups and wants to attack them back in return.

            I am guilty of that sometimes too. But I don’t think that’s good for any of the people involved in the exchange. So I am trying to improve.

  43. I just feel that u are going after Hinduism/India even b4 someone goes at Islam/Pak.

    I know u are a chill person. Everyone i meet IRL is more saner than their online version. Just dont take all these things that seriously.

    1. I don’t even discuss Hinduism until people decide to spout nonsense like Islam being the “most backward” religion. How does one even quantify “most backward”? And it was an Indian Hindu who called the Holy Quran “lame and primitive”. There is no need for such gratuituous disrespect. And the same people think “monkey god” is offensive (when that is how Wikipedia even describes Lord Hanuman. Is he not a monkey now?). People who believe in monkey gods and elephant gods really shouldn’t be criticizing the idea that the Holy Quran was divinely revealed to the Prophet of God. Purely on the basis of scientific rationality, both beliefs are irrational.

      I have nothing against India. I am open about disliking the Hindutva Regime (as do many Indian citizens). The Regime is not India. But for some people here even the most liberal Pakistani is not good enough.

      Some people here make every topic somehow about Islam and Pakistan. The Hagia Sophia thread had to be closed because somehow even that got on to Pakistan. It’s getting very tiresome actually.

  44. https://www.thehindu.com/news/international/the-beijing-islamabad-equation-of-the-1960s/article31995172.ece

    Analysis | The Beijing-Islamabad equation of the 1960s

    “We had good relations with India for several years. Then when we took Tibet back, India got annoyed… India not only infringed on 90,000 square kilometers of Chinese territory but they want all of Tibet as well…The Indian people are good, but capitalists like [Jawaharlal] Nehru are not good,” Mao added.

    In Zhou’s view, India wanted to occupy the Aksai Chin region — namely, “their so-called Ladakh”. The Chinese Premier said that while Pakistan wanted China to support the right of self-determination of the Kashmiris, “in fact our actions already go beyond this”, a transcript of the November 1963 conversation, also available in the Wilson Centre Digital Archive, stated.

    “We have settled the Sino-Pakistani border question with you; the people of the world understand this, and it indicates that we acknowledge that this region belongs to you. Even though there remains something left unsaid, this is only because of the stipulations of international law — [Pakistani] Ambassador [Agha Mohamed] Raza knows this; but we will talk again after the sovereignty jurisdiction issue has been settled,” Zhou added.”

    1. As already explained above, there is no comparison between a religion which THEOLOGICALLY justies caste and one in which all believers are equal in God’s eyes. Your bigoted and disgusting “Laws of Manu” actually state that Brahmins were born from God’s head and Shudras from God’s feet. The Holy Quran says nothing of the kind.

      Listen Hindutvadi, I’m not playing around. You come after my Islam again and I will absolutely destroy your Hinduism in such a way that you will go crying home to your mother. You’ve picked the wrong person to fuck with.

      1. \here is no comparison between a religion which THEOLOGICALLY justies caste\

        Hey Hey I like this pop theology. let me also do some pop theology

        White skin is prized in The theology so much so that as a reward for good muslim life one gets 72 virgins who are white. Lot of people have written about racism and slavery in Islam and islamic societies; just an example
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4KMOfN0Oeo

        Islam offers a bogus equality combined with real social discrimination – otherwise why should Muslims vote with their feet against Islamic societies and immigrate to non-Muslim countries , either legally or illegally.

        While Hinduism is relaxed about caste inequalities, laws of karma are applicable to all the people irrespective of caste

    2. Dalit Muslims are going to be the new Triple Talaaq for the Indian right in the coming decade.

  45. Some modest proposals:

    – Now that OTs are getting popular with lots of comments, it’s long past to reform/fix the comment system
    – Let’s start with quoting, which is non-existent right now
    – And while we’re at it, why not an ignore function? I don’t see the point of Milan’s endless “muh serb” spam in every single thread. Nor do I get why Kabir’s bottomless butthurt about his hyperfragile islamic identity needs to clog up all the threads.
    – make the text smaller
    – implement a way to minimise an entire thread
    – in fact, implement a comment thread function to begin with.

    The best commenting system I’ve seen thus far is on Unz. SSC, before Scott shut it down, also had a decent system. Hell, even a half-assed solution like Disqus is better than the mess we got now.

    Peace.

    1. Even highly offensive and inappropriate comments shouldn’t be removed because these will help us to know more and see the true face of humanity.

      More comments=more popular website

      But the texting limit should be reduced as too long comments are difficult to be read. Efforts can be taken so that reading threads and understanding threads become easy even for an outsider.

    2. It’s very simple. Don’t attack my country or religion and I won’t attack yours back.

      But I agree with you that the ability to block people would be very useful (especially our resident Serbian nationalist).

    3. Yeah the Serbian stuff is an eyesore. Like one comment is great but seeing 10 of the same thing is too much.

      Also on a side note the genetics and population topics are the best topics on the site.

    4. I am a big fan of Milan. There are deep commonalities between Serbia and ancient historical greater India. You can disagree with Milan about WHY these deep similarities exist . . . but that does not change that these deep similarities exist.

      There appears to have been deep extensive cultural/language/technology/civilizational exchange between Serbia and India several thousand years BC.

      This requires far greater study.

      Milan asserts that many great civilizations across southern, eastern Europe and the near east were closely interlocked with the Serbian civilizations. If this nomenclature bothers you so much . . . then please subtitute “East European” for Serb.

      Go Milan!!!

    1. Good article. Also striking to me how the Conservatives in the UK are able to recruit and keep a significant non white talent pool in their ranks. The Tories do not seem to be seen as an anti-minority party in the way the Republicans are in the US. Any thoughts why?

      1. Curious, there’s a lot of shared heritage between US and UK conservatives for sure, but certain distinctions might explain what you observe. Brexit populism notwithstanding, tories are still anchored to aristocratic values in certain ways (if watered down), in contrast, US conservatives since Reagan made a clean break in leadership from the east coast patrician establishment (cabot lodge, nelson rockefeller ect). Monarchism can accommodate cosmopolitanism better than the reaganite package. Furthermore, in a profoundly biracial society like the US, the dynamics of polarisation will always play on racial distinctions. Even fairly conservative people in the UK are surprisingly ok with non-assimilating minorities. There’s still a hangover colonial view which encourages things “remaining to type”. US populism requires a common ethos, in lieu of a symbolic figurehead.

        1. I think we are reading 2 much into post Post Trump Republican party. Perhaps the Republican party has fundamentally changed, and can’t go back. But i dont think the pre Obama Republican party was as anti-minority as today. Or at least wasn;t perceived as such. And that was also as Reagan-esque as they come.

          Also as much as we like it, to Boris is not Trump. So we can already see that the Tory;s haven’t moved as much as Republicans have shifted. So they are in pre tea party Republican phase in a way. Perhaps we are reading 2 much into Monarchism thing here.

          1. Saurav, personally i wouldn’t call the current trumpian repubs or the pre-obama repubs anti-minority or racist. But the parochialism of us conservatism is a perception. In my experience, white american republicans want a minority like myself to be more like them socially, and they have no quarrel with me otherwise. In the UK, they don’t care if i am like them at all, but just that we honour the same things. Hence, the brits love their sikhs to keep the turban and religion, just pin a royal crest on the former, while americans want a nikki haley who’s like any other south carolina lady, but brown. US doesn’t have that court tradition of colonial subjects lined up in colourful native dress, aggrandizing the idea of a global empire.

          2. LOL, so u mean UK’S Conservatives have some sort of benign racism (like benign dictatorship). Perhaps racism is a strong word for it. Like they love benign stereotypes. Got it.

      2. Curious, remember that:
        —in the 1992 US presidential election 55% of Asian Americans voted Republican (perhaps this was partly related to the 1992 riots in LA)
        —in the 2000 US presidential election 78% of muslims voted Republican
        —in the 2004 US presidential election 44% of Latinos voted Republican

        Trump is currently seeing a surge in Latino support and a significant drop in caucasian support with respect to Joe Biden.

  46. https://www.timesnownews.com/india/article/real-ayodhya-here-lord-ram-is-nepali-not-indian-nepal-pm-kp-sharma-olis-stunning-new-claim/620957

    ‘Real Ayodhya’ here, Lord Ram is Nepali not Indian’: Nepal PM KP Sharma Oli’s stunning new claim

    “We have been oppressed a bit culturally. Facts have encroached. We still believe that we gave Sita to Indian Prince Ram. But we gave to the prince from Ayodhya, not India. Ayodhya is a village a little west to Birgunj, not the Ayodhya created now (sic),” Oli said at an event at his official residence in Baluwatar.”

    1. Nepal doesnt have many options honestly. Landlocked, pretty populated, no native entrepreneurial communities. Depopulation is the only foreseeable future. Even in the vaunted tourism sector, its dollar earnings are merely 2% that of India’s.

      I wonder what they could have done differently ? Pressed on India to connect Kathmandu to the rail network ? Worked with us to build more dams ? Been more open to business castes and sought more investment ?

      1. “I wonder what they could have done differently”

        It could have become China’s client state and enjoyed the goodies earlier. That’s what it feels it could have done differently. Since India’s goodies to relation ratio is not up to the mark.

        This week Iran and China will sign on a 400B deal. Pakistan has CPEC. Sri Lanka has ports and stuff. All this could have been Nepal, had it moved out of India’s stranglehold some decades back. At least that the belief in Khatmandu.

        1. When I was younger I would think why would Indian princes sign such stupid deals with the British? Why didn’t they do *fill in the blanks* differently? Why didn’t they think about the future?

          When I see China pulling their tricks so successfully now (even now!) even on Islamic republics, I realize what the Ayatoolahs, Sharifs, Olis and Rajpakshas of the past were thinking.

          We are in for another round of drubbing this time at the hands of yellow people brought to you by over-smart railway-line/port-to-nowhere loving princes.

          1. PRC is East India Company combined with Her Proletarian Majesty’s govt.
            Notwithstanding my criticism or other’s criticism , I admire China for their bold initiatives on a mega scale . Their industry, capital spending ‘ organization skills, engineering , science and technology are rising to the occasion.
            I hope there is a competition between India and China like that of Germany and Britain in early 20th century – without ending in a Great War.

          2. No one thinks about the future, all the S-Asian countries are under tremendous pressure and their leaders know they are in just one election away from being thrown out. Sometimes not even an election, in case of Nepal, SL, Pak.

            So they try to maximize the “present” by burdening the “future”. Not unlike our own Indian leaders. And its no use crying colonization, colonization when u cant match the price (at the bare minimum).

          3. Its one thing to have ambitions, and quite another to know one’s capability to achieve them. If the latter makes me a defeatist, perhaps i am.

        2. Well, the OBOR is already faltering. China is not a reliable partner because it wont let anyone access its own markets.

          The irony here is that Chinese investment into India, the one poor country which is not in the OBOR, is led by its businesses. This is the kind of investment developing countries should be seeking.

          1. OBOR is not faltering because its aim is neither to increase trade nor military use, but increasing stake in those country politics, while guaranteeing ROI for Chinese enterprise who are bankrolling them, where other entities wont fund. If there are positive knock on effects , its great (for the recipient country) , anyhow Chinese are no Americans and will get their pound of flesh.

            Look at Hambantota and CPEC. Chinese haven;t lost anything. On the contrary their returns are guaranteed.

            https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/pakistans-internal-report-indicts-china-for-corruption-in-cpec-power-sector/articleshow/75823762.cms

            https://thediplomat.com/2020/01/the-hambantota-port-deal-myths-and-realities/

          2. @Saurav

            The second link is very informative. It raises another question why did the Chinese buy such a loss making port?

            Also any educated person can look at the stretch north of Karimabad with the tongues of Gulmit, Ghulkin, Pasu and Batura glaciers almost touching the Karakoram Highway and conclude that it is stupidity to think CPEC was about trade route.

            On the money side of things ‘mian biwi razi toh kya karega kazi’, let the Chinese take a juicy pound of flesh.

          3. On Hambantota, the Chinese equity is safe, there is no dilution on the Principle, only the interest charged has perhaps changed, which i guess is small mercies.

            “On the money side of things ‘mian biwi razi toh kya karega kazi’, let the Chinese take a juicy pound of flesh.”

            I think we Indians have a view that colonization has the same meaning and history for all nations. Its ins;t. Pakistan is a gr8 example.

  47. “Listen Hindutvadi, I’m not playing around. You come after my Islam again and I will absolutely destroy your Hinduism in such a way that you will go crying home to your mother. You’ve picked the wrong person to fuck with.”

    Enough of your nonsense, inbred retard.
    Time and again you’ve refused to answer why Muslims still follow the caste system. Nobody asked how it began or anything, why do they still follow it if “everyone is equal in the eyes of allah” or whatever other bs you believe in? Why can’t you answer a simple question? Others have already posted links to reports about untouchability among Muslims. Why are they still following it? Who’s asking the everyday Muslim to treat Muslims from other caste differently? Are they being paid? Do they have a gun to their head?

    “Again, sectarian violence is not the topic. Don’t deflect.”

    And who in the whole wide world told you that you’re the one who gets to decide the topic here? Is there a written rule on this thread? Stop being a cowardly little bitch and don’t deflect when I speak about Ahmadis.

    You brought up caste, I brought up sects. And now you hide like the coward you are.

    Also, India has reservations for lower caste people and the Government is trying to help them rise up slowly but gradually. On the other hand, in Islam, it’s the other way around, people never miss a chance to kill and attack Hazara Shias and Ahmadis. “Intolerant Hindoo India” is actually safer for Ahmadis and Hazara Shias. You have zero guts to even acknowledge the presence of Ahmadis.

    This is the disgusting filth of a religion that you’re so proud about-
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-47654430

    Someone who follows a cult that regularly kills people, burns their mosques down and even asks for violence against other groups (even in the west) shouldn’t be bitching about caste.

    As for your holy quran being so high and mighty-
    It LITERALLY asks husbands to beat their wives (and don’t you dare fucking say it asks them to “beat lightly” or that it’s “symoblic” or any other deceptive bullshit you western muslims come up with in order to sugarcoat shit and make it more acceptable) if they’re disobedient. And there’s a term for this in the civilized world- it’s called DOMESTIC VIOLENCE. Even muhammad hurt his child-bride Aisha in one of the hadiths, if I’m not wrong. Such a peaceful act.

    Women are also not free to marry non-muslims men (“idolaters” to be exact) but muslim men can. What a shining beacon of equality. And I don’t think I need to point out how it speaks about sexual slavery, there are multiple quotes about it.

    It calls women “tilth” and that men can do as they want. And I’m only speaking about the quran here, haven’t mentioned any hadiths (except for the Aisha one), which have far worse things. If I start mentioning the hadiths, there will be no end to how long my comments will go.

    And quran is the holiest book in Islam, Hinduism has no such equivalent. So before you try blabbering “Hinduism says this, Hinduism says that”, just write it all down in a piece of paper and shove it up your ass, because it means nothing as long as all Hindus agree on one single book/scripture to be the most important.

    And I don’t think I even have to say anything about the barbaric and inhumane way in which homosexuality and apostasy/atheism are looked at in large parts of the Islamic world.

    These two images are more than enough-
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory#/media/File:World_laws_pertaining_to_homosexual_relationships_and_expression.svg

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy#/media/File:Map_of_countries_with_death_penalty_for_atheists.svg

    And the biggest difference here is that Hinduism (you can try to talk shit all you want but the ground reality is that things are still changing) has undergone reforms and is still undergoing cultural changes (and Christianity underwent reforms too), whereas Islam has seen little to no changes for centuries and centuries, and there’s no reform in sight either. Anyone who even remotely deviates from the quran immediately comes under attack. And no other religion has caused more deaths than Islam in the 21st century (please don’t begin barking about the past again like some rabid dog). Why don’t I see ISIS, Boko Haram, equivalents of Christianity or Hinduism today? You can bitch about “but but isis and boko haram are not true islam” but the fact still remains that those people are using verses of the quran, the same quran that you so love to defend, and they’re killing and raping anyone that doesn’t agree with them.

    Ridiculous that I have to point out so many things to put my point across. I thought the lack of Muslim presence in modern science and technology was more than enough to infer that most Muslims are caught up with religion. Their lives and personalities revolve around religion.

    1. Listen Hindutvadi,

      Your disgusting and primitive religion features a lady married to five men at the same time (and that too brothers). Even Muslims as “backward” as you think we are would never do such a disgusting thing. No man can marry his brother’s wife.

      Your women used to run around bare chested until the British taught them to wear clothes. Muslim women have always been properly dressed because the Holy Quran tells them that there are certain parts of their body that only their husbands are allowed to see.

      Whatever little culture North Indians have was brought to you by the great Indo-Islamic dynasties.

      You are pathetic and digusting losers practicing a disgusting and primitive religion. Don’t ever fucking troll Islam again. Go to hell.

      1. What’s wrong with allowing women to be topless in public?

        They’ve passed rules in several Western jurisdictions (or case law has dictated) that permit women to be topless in public. Mostly on the grounds that it is discriminatory (men are allowed to be topless in public) and rooted in some rather puritanical values that are waning.

    2. And let’s not talk about the “CIVILIZED WORLD”– Your India is a third world Hindu majoritarian shithole. People like you are certainly not part of the civilized world.

      Go crawl back into your hole Hindu scum. If you come after me, I will fucking shove your balls so far up your mouth you will have no idea what happened to you.

  48. IsThisReal,

    Kabir appears not to be curious about or have studied the holy Koran, Kutub al-Sittah, Sira, Twelver Jafari Hadiths, Islamic scholars and jurisprudence contributors such as Gazali and Ibn Taymiyah, Islamic Auliyas, Pirs and Faqirs. Lot alone any other tradition/culture/civilization around the world. Kabir doesn’t appear to have a very serious daily religious practice other than his music. He is a very skilled singer and musician. It would be more productive to engage with Kabir on subjects that interest him and that he has studied.

    Dialogue about Islam with people who are at least curious about Islam and have a daily spiritual practice of any sort (for example native American.)

    I have a different perspective on some of your points on Islam. Remember that Islam has many strands full of love and light

    BTW, do you support expanding CAA?:

    https://www.brownpundits.com/2020/06/19/expanding-caa/

    1. I think that’s a part of the problem.

      He keeps going on because most people here don’t bother correcting him much or speak back in his own language. And the whole “I only reply here because you speak about my religion and country” is just a bs excuse.

      He wasn’t being challenged much so far and now that he is, he’s showing his true colours.

  49. IsThisReal, are you questions about Islam for real and not rhetorical?

    It would take some time to respond to all of them.

    Do you think the Holy Koran that people read today on earth is completely identical in every way to the Holy Koran in heaven that Arch Angel Gabriel read from?

    While you may assert that the vast majority of the holy Koran is not edited . . . how certain are you that there was zero editing?

    The Holy Koran was compiled, assembled and written by Hazrat Aisha circa 650 AD (18 to 20 years after the passing of the prophet pbuh) as per official Sunni and Shia accounts.

    We need to read these controversial verses in the holy Koran in this light and consider the circumstances around the prophet pbuh when he uttered said passages.

    Several people around the prophet pbuh were trying to trap him into answering questions wrong so that they could kill him. The prophet pbuh was in continuous danger of being jumped by his nominal “followers.” The prophet pbuh said what he needed to say in each moment and circumstance.

    Please talk to spiritual muslims and liberal muslims in private. There is a different discourse in private than in public.

    The best way our species can deal with the existential Islamist threat is to support the freedom of art and thought of muslims and encourage dialogue. Dialogue allows the sweetness of love to melt hearts.

    If you want to do more than the above, then talk to good muslims and ask them how you can help.

  50. Is a Browncast with the psychologist Rob Henderson possible? He has an unconventional history, and posts lots of reading stuff on twitter. Might be an interesting conversation.

  51. Razib was right again about you being a retard who takes every single Hindu book word for word and uses it as an argument. Goes to show what a dumb and weak little shit you are. Pretty much every argument you made is from the past.

    I’m talking about the 21ST CENTURY, and you’re talking about an ancient Hindu epic. Totally a fair debate. Don’t even know who let inbred cunts like you use the Internet.

    And modern-day Muslims practice polygamy to this day, even though it is known to have detrimental effects on society. Shithole religion is shithole. Treats women as sex slaves and nothing else.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy#/media/File:Legality_of_polygamy.svg
    Do let me know how many polygamy or polyamory cases among Hindus you’ve come across in the 21ST CENTURY.

    Let me guess, you also think western people are inferior because they cloth very revealingly, especially at the beach? Nothing else to be expected from desert cult gang, zero freedom whatsoever and tons of delusion and what not. Once again you’ve shown that desert cult gang really only cares about women as sex objects and has zero respect for them, thanks for proving my point you clown.

    “Whatever little culture North Indians have was brought to you by the great Indo-Islamic dynasties.”

    Thanks for saying that, guess that explains why Southern India performs better in most fields, goes to show what a shitty influence the barbaric and primitive religion of Islam has. No wonder Pakistan is the worst country in the subcontinent. Anyone can kidnap, rape and impregnate a Christian girl for 9 months and nobody does anything- https://www.indcatholicnews.com/news/39994
    In any other country (including India) this would’ve been all over the news and people would’ve been protesting in the thousands. But in the primitive shithole religion started by a pedophile, this is something very normal and a part of the religion.

    “You are pathetic and digusting losers practicing a disgusting and primitive religion. Don’t ever fucking troll Islam again. Go to hell.”

    Lol not even close. Islam is truly the shittiest and most vile, disgusting religion there ever is. And its followers are inbred as hell and you can’t expect anything useful from most of them, like I pointed in the beginning.

    And even after almost half a dozen replies, you still don’t have the balls to acknowledge how Hazara Shias and Ahmadis are treated.
    Cowardly piece of shit, enjoyed having your teeth kicked in? Or did you go home crying to your mother like the whiny little bitch that you are?
    You also didn’t acknowledge the fact that your piece of crap quran is the one responsible for most acts of terrorism in the 21st century.

    There’s a reason why it’s the most hated religion on the planet. It’s total fucking shit. It’s disgusting, barbaric and stupid as hell.
    Who the legit fuck in their right minds would praise a war-mongering pedophile? I guess it doesn’t make a difference when your parents are cousins though.

    1. My parents aren’t cousins. Neither are any of my grandparents. Don’t let that stop you from being a disgusting bigot though.

      Your culture is the one which burns women to death for not bringing enough dowry. You Hindus have no business casting your dirty eyes on the Holy Quran.

      Next time you feel like attacking a Muslim, remember that we ruled over you for centuries, married your women, converted them to Islam and produced Muslim heirs from them. It was the British who dislodged us from the Lal Qila, not you pathetic Hindu shits. If it hadn’t been for the Brits, the Mughal Dynasty would be ruling the entire subcontinent today.

      Don’t even talk to your superiors. Stay in your lane.

      And if you comment about me again, I will cut off your balls and feed them to you. Don’t fuck with me, you Hindu piece of shit.

      1. Stfu Kabir, everyone can see that you’re clearly an inbred retard.

        Hilarious that you have zero points other than ancient stuff like Sati. And you yourself admitted that Sati isn’t practiced anymore in 2 previous comments of yours. Why bring it up again? No more ammo?

        “remember that we ruled over you for centuries, married your women, converted them to Islam and produced Muslim heirs from them”

        Who is this “we”? lol
        Your ancestors the ones who were raped and converted you clown, retarded cuck bragging about being cucked.

        “If it hadn’t been for the Brits, the Mughal Dynasty would be ruling the entire subcontinent today.”
        But they aren’t : ^)
        What are you gonna do about it kabir? Whine about it as usual like the whiny little bitch that your mother raised you to be?
        There are more muslims than Hindus today, what’s stopping your “brave” little group of people from taking over India?
        Your inbred gang can’t even take down a tiny country like Israel lol, tight slap in the face of the entire ummah, nothing but a bunch of weaklings

        And gotta love China for grabbing the entire ummah by the balls, you can’t even dare speak against them, let alone take action
        Remember your “aukaat”, warmongering pedophile worshipper
        : )

        1. You clearly can’t read. Sati and dowry deaths are two different things. Dowry deaths are still being practiced today.

          Learn English before arguing on the Internet.

          1. You people take glory in honour killing and wanna talk trash about others who are trying to improve, lol.

            India has 6 times the population of Pakistan and yet both countries have around 1000 honour killings a year (and Muslims are responsible for many of the honour killings in India too).
            http://hbv-awareness.com/regions/

            “While in both India and Pakistan there have been a great deal of discussion around ‘honour’ killings, India has taken more assertive legal action, including awarding the death penalty to large numbers of persons who have colluded in murder. In Pakistan, there is more of a culture of impunity and while police reports may be filed, there is often little follow-up, particularly in rural areas.”

            No wonder even popular celebs like Qandeel Baloch aren’t safe.

            And you still haven’t acknowledged violence against Ahmadis, what a filthy, major coward. It’s out in the open for everyone to read about your cowardice.

      2. What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little mleccha? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Dronacharya’s ashram, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Abbottabad, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in dharmic warfare and I’m the top archer in the entire maratha army. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Loka, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, goatfucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of rishis across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my mantras. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of Astras and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo.

        1. Haha, your “rishis” are looking in the wrong place. If you really want to come after me, send them to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

          Hindu loser.

          1. my rishi network has enough spiritual power to strike you anywhere in the world

            also I’m not hindu, lol. You just need some help getting over yourself.

          2. You used the word “mleecha”. I don’t think non-Hindus use that word.

            I don’t need to “get over myself”. Having core aspects of one’s identity attacked over and over again by ignorant trolls gets tiresome after a while. It’s extremely toxic.

        2. Lol, I just feel sorry that you wrote such a long parody comment and still ended up offending Kabir.

      3. “don’t talk to your superiors” lmfao

        Man we have pushed Kabir to Pakdefense. Indthings now sounds quite rational in comparison.

        I wonder why this forum attracts so many people who take pride in ancestral cucking? They venerate their rapist grand daddies over everything and disown the majority of their indic aboriginal blood. At least 20% white Aframs still identify as Black. Kabir thinks his minor outside ancestry, relatively lighter skin sub continental ancestry, and islamic faith make him superior, especially compared to darker hindus?

        Sounds more like General Bajwa and the “Dravidian Hindu oppression of Muslim Aryan Kashmiris.” Just remember, that if power was his, he might go genocidal at the scale of millions of raped and killed like a Niazi.

          1. According to Mr. Patel, when someone is a police suspect in a crime, witnesses at the scene will describe the suspect as a “proportion” of admixture levels and ancestry as opposed to an actual person with a racial identity.

            “What did the suspect look like?”

            “He looked like he was 85% White and 15% Asian.”

            “No, what race did he look like?”

            “He looked like he was a 85/15 member of the South Asian race.”

            “What race is that? What does that even mean?”

            “JAI SHREE KRISHNA! My Dhoklas are burning, sorry officer gotta go!”

            Keep living your delusions. I’m done talking to wackos and insane people in denial. Good evening.

          2. Can thewarlock and APthk please post their pictures here? Women posters (and gay males) can rate them both, and others can adjudicate their contesting claims.
            For science

        1. “At least 20% White Afram still identify as black”

          BINGO! This is indeed what I have been trying to explain to people here all along, and I’m glad Mr. Patel agrees. South Asians who have greater than 80% of their ancestry from West Asia/the Steppes are completely justified in not identifying as a generic “Brown” person or “Desi” and instead identifying as West Asian/Caucasian just like African Americans, who are anywhere from 15 to 20% White on average, and 80% to 85% Black, still identify as Black.

          The other issue to keep in mind is, Hindu Jats and Rors are around 85-86% West Asian on average, so even more West Eurasian than African Americans, and Jats dont have any SSA admixture whatsoever, they have SE Asian admixture (SSA= Sub-Saharan-African)

          This makes Hindu Jats even more similar to Western Eurasians, including many West Asians like Persians, peoples of the Caucasus, Turks (with the exceptions of Arabs, who often have SSA admixture) and Eastern Europeans, who also have some significant Asian admixture of some sort in most cases (ranging from 5% to 15-20%), just like Jatts have SE Asian admixture.

          Hindu Jatts themselves look completely West Asian as well, due to ancient stabilized minor admixture, just like other West Asians who share a similar ethnogenesis. Therefore, Hindu Jatts/Rors are completely justified in identifying as West Asians living in South Asia. I’m glad some people here who had trouble understanding this simple idea, have finally come to their senses. Jai Shree Krishna!

          1. IVC component is S Asian. it forms plurality of S Asian DNA. It is also West Eurasian in origin but a defining feature of S Asian genetics. Even some basal 10% or so steppe which is norm in N indians.

            Again I am 65 35 west to east. You are 85 15. We aren’t as far apart as you would like and that bothers you. Get over it. Your DNA is quite indic. You have an extra say 20% that isn’t a big fucking deal. You are majority West Eurasian. Well so are most Indians. But you are also majority indic DNA (IVC+AASI). You can choose to identify as whatever and make whatever oddball phenotypic claims you want.

            We have all seen Hindu Jatts. There is a reason no one believes your claims. They defy reality. Hindu Jats look like what they are, West shifted on average S Asians. There are some extremes sure but they are outliers.

            Also, go ahead and identify as majority West Eurasian. I guess I do too because it is technically true. Neither of us are full West Eurasian. You just draw a line in the sand to say you magically qualify by your arbitrary standard. And who cares anyway? It’s not even a label anyone outside of this niche knows.

            You are a S Asian. Your genetics show it. Your people look S Asian, just west shifted on average. You will live. Take a chill pill and accept it.

            I also know your genica ID. People are sending me enough stuff about you. I’d still like to meet in real life to clear the air. Keyboard wars are redundant and boring.

          2. Ah, I see. So the logic that applies to other ethnic groups and races doesn’t apply to people living in South Asia. African Americans that are only 15% White have every right to identify as Black, and are doing the right thing, but Hindu Jats who are 15% SE Asian AKA AASI, and 85% West Asian, are “Brown” and no different from Gujarati Patels that look like a different race in front of them. Even if Hindu Jats look West Asian, and even though other West Asians also harbor Asian ancestry in varying amounts. LMAO!

            Of course, this is according to you, as you suspend all logic and reasoning skills and common-sense, and ignore the facts, when it comes to analyzing the racial diversity of South Asians. Because otherwise, it would result in the dismantling of your delusional framework and narrative that seeks to paint all South-Asians as a monolithic group that are simply “Brown people” — Haha! What an idiot. Anyone can see right through your foolish attempts at justifying your idiotic views. You contradict yourself, and when cornered spew the same BS over and over and over. What can I say? Arguing with idiots is truly a waste of time. But I’ll humor you one last time.

            “IVC component is S Asian. it forms plurality of S Asian DNA. It is also West Eurasian in origin but a defining feature of S Asian genetics.”

            How can the IVC component be “South Asian” when it is “West Asian” in origin, as you yourself state here? It is impossible for it to be fundamentally South Asian if it originates from West Asia, is shared with West Asians, and if it is a component that reaches max levels among modern-day West Eurasians like the Brahui and others. Furthermore, it is fundamentally alien to the subcontinent in true terms because it represents Caucasian ancestry, something that is invasive to the subcontinent from the very beginning.

            You are just saying that it is “South Asian” because the majority of South Asians share the IVC component in varying amounts. That doesn’t make it “South Asian” my friend, because it still originates from West Asia and is a West Asian component. That would be like saying that the European ancestry in Latinos in general, including White and non-White Latinos, who share more than 60% of their ancestry with Europeans on average, is an “American” component that is indigenous to Latin America, when in reality, it originates from Europe. No, it is still European in origin, and the fact that most Latinos share this European ancestry as a major component doesn’t change that fact. The Asian/Native American ancestry in Latinos, on the other hand, is indigenous to the Americans (and is related to other East Asians distantly) and is a parallel to AASI in South Asians. Which is why White latinos are Caucasian and look like other Europeans, and non-White Latinos don’t. Just like NW Biradri groups look West Asian/European and other South Asians (like yourself) don’t. Why is this so hard for your brain to understand? You need to lay off the Slurpees and the Dhoklas.

            Then you make the same repeated claim:

            “Again I am 65 35 west to east. You are 85 15. We aren’t as far apart as you would like and that bothers you. Get over it. Your DNA is quite indic. You have an extra say 20% that isn’t a big fucking deal. You are majority West Eurasian. Well so are most Indians. But you are also majority indic DNA (IVC+AASI). You can choose to identify as whatever and make whatever oddball phenotypic claims you want.”

            Again, no one gives a rat’s ass what your proportions are. The point is, whatever your genetic background may be, your race/phenotypic characteristics and appearance are NOT West Asian or Caucasian. You look like an admixed Latino, specifically a Mestizo. People in America will mistake you for a non-White Mexican or Hispanic or Latino and members of these communities will talk to you in Spanish. I wouldn’t even recognize you as an “Indian” if I saw you here, not only because it is not a race, but also because you are racially just like non-White Latinos who live in America. Of course, if I was in a 7-11, and heard a Gujju accent, well then I would have my suspicions.

            Anyway, the point is, that beyond a certain level of West Asian admixture, IVC+Steppe, (which is what the IVC component originally is, West Asian, NOT “indic”) people are fully Caucasian/West Asian racially (and have fully Caucasian characteristics) and are 100% West Asian in appearance, and so belong to one race. This is unlike you, as you appear admixed/mixed race and are a Mestizo. Stating proportions doesn’t even matter one bit, as you can’t go around telling people, “Well I am 65% West Eurasian and only 35% SE Asian. That makes me closer to West Asians than to Asians” because people will laugh at you. Whether you like it or not, you have to identify as a non-White Latino or Gujarati Patel, because that is what people will ALWAYS take you as. No one cares about your proportions, people (and forensic science, which classifies race) only care about your appearance, which in turn is what is used to classify your race.

            I am classified as a Caucasian or “White” in America and other countries, and you are classified as a “Mestizo” and non-White “Hispanic” or Latino in America and in other countries. In India you would be a Gujarati Vania, and I would be a Hindu Jatt. Its also funny how you think proportions, which again are not as important when examining phenotype, make you closer to me, when I could easily say that I am much closer to a Bandari Persian, many of whom share the same admixture levels as me, (85/15) than I am to people like you, who are 65/35. My claim would also hold more water as Bandari Persians and Hindu Jats are both Caucasian racially, and look fully West Asian, whereas Gujarati Vanias like you are mixed race and look nothing like West Asians. Also, I find it funny that you think 20% isnt a “big fucking deal” — LMAO — that 20% is what makes Hindu Jats like me West Asian/Caucasian racially, and Patels like you mixed race and not West Asian racially. I’d say that’s a HUGELY significant impact, and ergo, that 20% is a BIG fucking deal indeed, my Patel friend. (BTW, some estimates place it at 85/86% to up to 90% so it could be as high as 25%! GASP! Bet that gave you a TIA) Also, it doesn’t matter if most Indians are majority West Asian genetically, the fact is that they aren’t West Asian ENOUGH to be racially/phenotypically West Asian like Hindu Jats are. Again, you guys missed the cut, my Patel friend.

            What’s even more hilarious is that using your logic, someone like Prince Harry’s son, who is also >10% Black/SSA, and around ~85% White, (his grandmother is ~50% black, and his mother is around ~75% White, making him ~85% White) would also be considered to be a Sub-Saharan African, or a “Black” person, when he is no different from a White NW European racially and looks fully White. Another, more relevant example, involving Asian admixture, would be Bruce lee. Bruce’s mother was half-Asian and his father was fully Asian. Despite the fact that Bruce was nearly a quarter White, around 23-24%, he still looked fully Asian and was/is considered to be an East Asian male role model.

            In fact, he is considered to be the greatest example of Asian masculinity by the Asian world and the world at-large. He will forever be the male archetype for Asian machismo and bravado for the indelible impact he had on cinema and martial arts. But going by your logic, Bruce was not East Asian, but White/European and part of the “European world”, because he shared nearly a quarter of his DNA with Europeans. What a laughable idea!

            Actually, according to you, Bruce should’ve walked around wearing a shirt that said “Im approximately ~75% East Asian genetically, and around 24%-25% White European genetically. So remember, I am not Chinese, I just look like one fully!”

            What’s funny is that Hindu Jats are more than 10% more West Eurasian than Bruce is East Asian, and their admixture is stabilized ancient admix, which makes your claims absolutely invalid and appallingly stupid and incorrect.

            You also keep saying that I can identify as whatever I want, as if that will pass muster. What world are you living in? I can identify as whatever I want? So if I identified as Black, you think I would pass the admissions screening or job screenings? You think people would let me identify as “black” and let me get away with it? What about non-White Hispanic/Latino? You think I can identify as one and get away with it like you can? No, its impossible my Patel friend, because you have to actually LOOK like a West Asian/Caucasian or for that matter, a Latino to pass as one and to be accepted as one. THe reason I identify as a White/Caucasian individual is because I look like it, and am considered to be one by other Americans and people that see me and know me or interact with me in any shape or form.

            Finally, lets examine your last moronic claims:

            “We have all seen Hindu Jatts. There is a reason no one believes your claims. They defy reality. Hindu Jats look like what they are, West shifted on average S Asians. There are some extremes sure but they are outliers. You are a S Asian. Your genetics show it. Your people look S Asian, just west shifted on average.”

            Who is “we” here? The correct word(s) to use here are “I” and “me, myself and I” because we all know who the delusional one here is my Patel friend. Everyone knows the truth and has been receptive to my claims but you. These claims “defy” YOUR reality because you are an insecure Patel who can’t reconcile the fact that Hindu Jats pass among the broader population of Caucasians in the world.

            Even Razib has stated repeatedly that Jatts have a distinct appearance in comparison to others in South Asia, as have others in this thread. In addition, he and others have also stated that many Hindu Jats are White passing and that they are Caucasian in appearance, something that is common in my experience in our community. This is impossible among Patels and Gujarati communities that you yourself belong to for obvious reasons.

            Also, there is no such thing as looking like “West-shifted South Asians” because it is impossible to “look like” a region with different races and thousands of divergent ethnic groups in the first place. AASI admixture exists in Iran as well. Does that make them South Asian too? South Asian admixture is on a cline that stretches from Iran to South India and Bengal, that doesn’t mean that everyone on the cline belongs to some arbitrary race or group. It simply means that they share and have different levels of admixture (AASI), a type of Asian admixture, which in turn either does or doesn’t influence their phenotype, depending on the magnitude and levels of AASI. Applying a label like “South Asian” to it doesn’t change this fact. Hindu Jats are culturally South Asian and live in the geographic region, but are West Asians racially, just like Pashtuns. In light of this, your statement is laughably incorrect and HILARIOUS! Anything that doesn’t fit your made-up narrative and as such makes you uncomfortable automatically becomes an “outlier” LMAO. The truth is, you are the actual mental “outlier” my friend, because you are too dumb and too far in denial to accept and understand the facts that are plainly in front of us all to see.

            “Also, go ahead and identify as majority West Eurasian. I guess I do too because it is technically true. Neither of us are full West Eurasian. You just draw a line in the sand to say you magically qualify by your arbitrary standard. And who cares anyway? It’s not even a label anyone outside of this niche knows.”

            LMAO again with the same STUPID and INSANE claims. NO ONE identifies as “Majority West Asian”. Literally no one. They identify as their race and phenotype, which in turn defines their identity. You just don’t get it Mr. Patel. Also, even West Asians by and large are NOT “fully West Asian” genetically, they all have varying levels of admixture. From Turks to Iranians to Levantines to Arabs to people in the Caucasus to North African Arabs and Berbers to White Latinos to Russians and even Eastern and North Eastern Europeans, they ALL have different levels of East Asian admixture and in some cases, SSA Admixture.

            Does this make them less West Asian or European? NO, because they are still FULLY West Asian/Caucasian/European in appearance and racially fully Caucasian as well, in spite of minor genetic admixture. They possess the threshold level of West Asian admixture needed to be FULLY West Asian and Caucasian racially, as reflected be their appearance, JUST like Hindu Jats do, and just like yours truly. Therefore, I am not drawing any “arbitrary lines”, or using any illogical “magic” to qualify by “arbitrary standards” (things that you do ALL the time) No, I am simply using the phenotype and race, which is far from arbitrary, to draw the line, which is what the ENTIRE world does to identify people and their racial classification. Just like other West Asians who are also “impure” and admixed are classified and identified as “White” or Caucasian based on their appearance, so are Hindu Jats a part of the same group of pure Caucasians/West Asians despite any minor ancient genetic admixture.

            “You will live. Take a chill pill and accept it.”

            Ironic that you are proferring advice that you should really be taking yourself. Only you have issues with accepting the facts and the logic as they are. You really need to relax and accept the truth, as opposed to living in denial. You said that these threads “consumed” you in the past — I can see that they still do, even in “Residency” — good, good, let the hurt flow through you my Patel friend. Living in denial won’t change people’s identities and race and appearance. You can continue living your lie, it makes no difference to me or to actual Hindu Jats. We will continue to look fully Caucasian/West Asian and you will continue to look like a Mestizo.

            “I’d still like to meet in real life to clear the air. Keyboard wars are redundant and boring.”

            Is that a veiled threat? The truth hurt you so much that you can’t take the heat? You’ve already said that you’d like to show me who the “real man” is if I met you in real life, and that you’re not some “pussy” LMAO. Real men never make such statements. What a loser. I’m not interested in discussing what is a self-evident point with you, in person, or anywhere else. I have far better things to do with my time. And have fun discussing me with your retinue of fools, and keep trying to use your amateur sleuthing skills to try to pinpoint my real-life identity. You will never be successful. Just accept the truth about Hindu Jats being West Asian/Caucasian racially, as opposed to wasting your time on this futile endeavor. From the very beginning, you have failed to suitably address and rebut any of my valid assertions. You are also too scared to post your pictures or to even compare them to mine, because you look nothing like them. Nor do Gujjus in general. Keep living in your delusions Mr. Patel. I won’t be responding to any more of your low-brow, false, inaccurate and delusional posts. I’ve wasted enough time here clearing the air and showing people the truth. Keep living your false narrative. Jai Shree Krishna!

          3. lol stop spazzing. You just ranted and said a lot of nothing and refuted 0. post your pic bro. Let’s see what you look like. And keep being a coward. Meet me. Let’s see what you’d like to discuss. “real men” don’t hide behind a keyboard and rant like psychotics about how they are a different race. You are one confused and mentally unstable SOB. Lol better things to do with your time. Hence all the paragraphs to rebut nothing and pussyfooting

          4. lol post your pic Jatt king. you know what I look like. Let’s see you. I have a feeling you might look a lot like what you think you don’t. Let brownpundits witness your hypocrisy on full display uncle rukus.

            You can also always meet me in person. Don’t be scared. The Jatt Whisperer will bot not hurt you.

    1. No. Extreme free speech is very important to understand human psychology. People often show their true face when they get emotional.

      Such research on human psychology can’t be done in real life. So internet is the perfect place to research on social psychology by letting people say whatever they want.

      I will suggest free speech to the non-beloved of mine so that I can know them.
      But I will neither practise free speech myself nor suggest practising free speech to my beloved ones as free speech can be very destructive.

  52. @AnAn, I’ve met tons of Muslims from different ethnic and linguistic backgrounds (although pretty much all of them were under 30-40). There’s barely any scope for dialogue when it comes to religion even among the most moderate ones in the subcontinent. Maybe western Muslims are different, idk.

    One of them at college actually praised ISIS fighters and called them “highly intelligent” (because killing and raping innocent people is apparently a sign of intelligence or something). He has nothing in common with those terrorists apart from religion, and even then he would rather call them intelligent than condemn them. He was the stupidest person in the class anyway, not much of a difference

    Another one (he would tell you that he earned his degree thanks to me) idolizes Zakir Naik and told me that he wants to become like Naik when he grows up. He also tried to convince me that non-Muslims are going to hell and that the Quran is “scientific” and some other bs. I debunked whatever few quotes he brought up, he couldn’t refute anything at all and he never had the guts to talk about religion again, he only stuck to asking doubts related to studies after that.

    I have many other anecdotes.

    There’s a US consulate less than a km from where I grew up, it has a riot control vehicle and at least half a dozen cops surrounding it all times no matter what, and this has been in place since 2012? Know why? Because Muslims tried to attack it when “Innocence of Muslims” came out.

      1. LOL. Dark Madrasi troll daring to attack your North Indian Muslim superiors! Pathetic piece of shit.

        1. LOL, what a dumbfuck.

          Read carefully you inbred shitstain, I know your parents are cousins and thinking is hard, but Razib asked what part of India “DO YOU LIVE IN”, not what part of India you’re FROM

          Also, “Dark Madrasi troll” people have achieved more than your islamic ummah put together, you primitive cavemen are superior to no one lol. Even a patch of fungus would laugh if you called yourself superior.

          1. @IsThisReal

            Are you an AASI shifted Black Dravidian South Indian/Tamil?

            Or are you someone from ANI/steppe shifted upper caste?

            Curious.

          2. You’re the one with reading comprehension issues.

            How many times do I have to state that neither my parents nor grandparents were related to each other? Are you incapable of reading English?

            And Muslim dynasties ruled almost the entirity of what is today “India”. Fine we didn’t technically get as far as Tamil Nadu. But we gave you people the Taj Mahal, Urdu, Hindustani Classical music, Mughlai cuisine, shalwar kameez etc. You really should be thanking us instead of attacking us. Ungrateful wretches.

            You truly are pathetic scum.

          3. So the Taj Mahal has no “Hindu elements” now? What a ridiculous and foolish claim! You sound more deranged by the post. Let me appraise you of the “Hindu” elements in the Taj, my “knowledgeable” friend:

            “The Taj Mahal incorporates and expands on many design traditions, particularly Hindu, Persian, and earlier Mughal architecture. While previous Mughal building had primarily been constructed of red sandstone, Shah Jahan promoted the use of white marble inlaid with semi-precious stones. (Shah Jahan had Hindu Rajput Lineage, as both his mother and grandmother were Hindu Rajputs, and was the principal mind/designer and had the final say behind the design elements of the Taj)

            “The red sandstone on the lesser buildings and white marble on mausoleum corresponds with the traditional Indian caste system, in which Brahmins had white buildings and the warrior caste had red. This aligned the Mughals with the two powerful castes.”

            “Hindu craftsmen, particularly sculptors and stonecutters, plied their trade throughout Asia during this period, and their skills were particularly sought after by tomb builders… Indian buildings such as the Man Singh Palace in Gwalior were an inspiration for much Mughal palace architecture which can be seen on the Taj Mahal.”

            It gets even more interesting as we dig deeper, for it is clear where Shah Jahan, who was given this title while in residence at the palace of the Maharana in Udaipur, got his inspiration for building monuments primarily in White Marble with pietra dura, and for the design of the Taj Mahal in general:

            “Jag Mandir’s history begins with the Maharana Karan Singh’s benevolence shown to Emperor Shahjahan (1605–1627). Shahjahan, before he was crowned as Mughal Emperor, was known during his young days as Prince Khurram. As Khurram, he rebelled against his father Emperor Jahangir in 1623, because he wanted to be the heir to the Mughal throne. Faced with the danger of getting thwarted in his campaign, he sought refuge in the Mewar Kingdom at Udaipur where he was given safe haven by the then Maharana Karan Singh (it is said that this courtesy was extended because Khurram’s mother was a Rajput Hindu lady).

            He was initially kept in the City Palace along with his wife Mumtaz Mahal and his two sons, Prince Dara and Prince Aurangzeb. Later they were shifted to the Gul Mahal, as a safe refuge, in the midst of the lake (this place since then has also been called Khurram’s Palace). Gul Mahal is a domed pavilion that was specially built for Khurram by Maharana Karan Singh. It was later enlarged by his son Jagat Singh into a huge palace and named as the Jag Mandir Palace. Khurram remained under Mewar’s protection during 1623–1624. Gul Mahal was the first structure built in 1551, during the reign of Maharana Amar Singh, which was further developed during the reign of Maharana Jagat Singh to house the Mughal Prince Khurram. It was initially a small sandstone (yellow sandstone) palace with an imposing dome (which gives the appearance of a crown). The crescent of Islam is fixed on top of this dome. The Gul Mahal has three circular domed chambers, one above the other. Entry to these chambers is from a columned hall. Two marble chhatris with sloping cornices rise above the main façade. The massive marble slabs affixed to the interior walls were inlaid with coloured rubies, onyx, jasper, cornelian and jade. This type of decoration is reported to have been replicated by the Mughals in their Tomb of I’timād-ud-Daulah at Agra, in 1626. The palace is also said to have housed a throne carved from a single block of serpentine, which has not been traced. The Mahal is surrounded by a roomy circular apartment built in white and black marble with murals and paintings considered an uncommon feature in Rajput architecture. On the western wing of the palace, this type of design has been repeated in three other pavilions.

            The palace had such an impact on Prince Khurram who later became Emperor Shah Jahan that it went on to become the inspiration for one of the most magnificent Wonders of the World, the Taj Mahal.”

            So now we know what inspired the architecture of the Taj Mahal and the “Baby Taj”, Itmad-Ud-Daulah, including its building materials. Lets keep digging:

            “Following the death of Jahangir in 1627, Khurram ascended the throne of the Mughal Empire. It is said that Khurram was bestowed the title of Shah Jahan at the Badal Mahal in Udaipur before he left Udaipur for his crowning as the Mughal emperor. As an act of reward, Khurram not only restored six districts to the Mewar kingdom, which had been earlier annexed by the Mughals, but also presented a unique ruby jewel to Jagat Singh, son of Rana Karan Singh. After Karan Singh’s death in 1628, Jagat Singh (1628–1652) became the Maharana. He was responsible for many additions to the Gul Mahal and called it the Jag Mandir, after himself. For building this remarkable structure, Maharana Jagat Singh was hailed as one of the best architects of the Mewar dynasty. Khurram, after becoming Emperor Shahjahan, particularly favoured the Maharana of Udaipur, which enabled the Mewar kingdom to regain its past glory.”

            What about the finial?

            “The main dome is crowned by a gilded spire or finial. The finial was made of gold until the early 1800s, and it is now made of bronze. The finial provides a clear example of the integration of traditional Persian and Hindu decorative elements. Because of its placement on the main spire, the horns of the moon and the finial point combine to create a trident shape—reminiscent of the traditional Hindu symbols of Shiva. Similarly, the spire is made up of a number of bulbous forms. The central form bears a striking resemblance to a Hindu sacred water vessel (kalash or kumbh).”

            What about the inverted lotus on top of the dome?

            “The lotus is a symbolic flower from the Hindu tradition, it is one of the elements proving the mix of culture of the Mughals.

            In the Hindu imaginary it represents the knowledge, the opening on the world and in a more spiritual way the uniform and continual widening of the universe. This is due to its ability to deploy when in the water, Hindus believing that it has the opportunity to open to the world for it may be in a conducive environment, a metaphor for life on earth.”

            What about the eight Chattris?

            “Chhatri are elevated, dome-shaped pavilions used as an element in Indian architecture. Chhatris are commonly used to depict the elements of pride and honour in Rajput, Maratha and Jat architecture. They are widely used in palaces, in forts, or to demarcate funerary sites.

            Originating in Rajasthani architecture where they were memorials for royalty, they were later adapted as a standard feature in all buildings in Maratha-ruled states, Rajasthan, and in Mughal architecture.

            The most notable surviving examples today are to be found at Humayun’s Tomb in Delhi and the Taj Mahal in Agra.

            The word literally means “canopy” or “umbrella.” In the context of architecture, the word is used to refer to two different things. The usual and more widely understood meaning is of a memorial, usually very ornate, built over the site where the funeral (cremation) of an important personage was performed. Such memorials usually consist of a platform girded by a set of ornate pillars which hold up a stone canopy.”

            Even the Onion domes seen in the Taj Mahal independently originated in India, and are not found in Persia or other Muslim countries with few exceptions in Central Asia, all being built after the Taj Mahal. Russia is also thought to have independently developed the Onion-shaped dome, or to have been influenced by South Asian architecture.

            As we can see above, The Taj Mahal is very much an Indian monument, for everything about it (with the exception of the Islamic calligraphy on its entrance and the shape of its arches) is Indian in origin. Even the main commissioner of the monument, Shah Jahan, had a Hindu Rajput Mother and Grandmother, and looked just like them as well. There are plenty more sources that go into further details about the Hindu and Indian origins of the Taj Mahal, but I’m sure you can look them up yourself, my “knowledgeable” friend.

            As for Mughlai cuisine and Hindustani Classical Music being “given” to us by the “Muslims”? Just LMAO. That’s an even more ridiculous claim that I am not even going to bother addressing.

            BTW, its telling that no country outside of South Asia has a building similar to the Taj Mahal, or cuisine similar to Mughlai food or music similar to Hindustani music. One would expect to find quite a few similarities, especially in the cultures and monuments of “Muslim” countries. Yet, such similarities don’t exist. I wonder why?

            Perhaps because Kabir AKA “Jihadi Shakespeare” is a first-rate fool who doesn’t have the slightest idea of what he talks about. My friend, your time is better spent reading Tumblr blogs written by pre-pubescent girls, take a leaf out of the Prophets handbook, PBUH (Piss be upon his bearded face, that pedophile).

          4. APthk,

            Don’t argue with me about Hindustani music. Do you have a Masters degree in Ethnomusicology? No, then shut up.

            There is no call to EVER insult the Prophet of God, you disgusting Islamophobe. Calling me a “Jihadi” is absolutely unacceptable. I have never advocated for Sharia law or anything like that.

            And I am not your “friend”. I do not make friends with racists and Islamophobes. Fuck you.

  53. “Are you an AASI shifted Black Dravidian South Indian/Tamil?”

    “Or are you someone from ANI/steppe shifted upper caste?”

    on bp two ppl are having a shitfest, but a commenter has to interrupt and inquire admixture percentages

  54. Thank you Hindutvadi trolls for making this space so toxic for Pakistani Muslims. Though I am perfectly capable of responding in kind to Hindu trolls (I will not be bullied by anyone), I don’t want to become that sort of person. So I will not be commenting here anymore. You Hindutvadis can go back to your circle jerks.

    Razib, please delete the posts that I have written here. Thanks.

    In the future you all should intrspect about why the audience of this site is the loony Hindu Right (and their Serbian nationalist friends) and why leftist people refuse to come on your podcasts. Why would sensible people want to be associated with this shit? If you ever want to engage in good faith dialogue with Pakistanis, attacking our country and religion is not the way to go.

    1. bruh, all you have to do is just not give a shit
      there will always be shitposting on the internet, chillax

    2. What a funny person.

      I was very factual in my first comment on this thread and only brought it up because I’ve been seeing you trashtalk for weeks. I held off replying for several days because I thought you were sensible (because Razib said so and he’s seen your comments longer than I have).

      Don’t try acting smart tbh.

      1. I don’t need to “act smart”. I’ve been educated in the United States.

        And no you weren’t “factual”. Your every comment here drips with Islamophobia. Idiot.

        1. “I don’t need to “act smart”. I’ve been educated in the United States.”

          Eh, I don’t think that says all that much. I went to a better school than you in the US for a more challenging program and that doesn’t make me smart.

  55. @StraightGay, I’m not ancestrally south-Indian. I can speak Tamil (or Tamizh as the natives like to call it) though, can’t read or write however.

  56. IsThis Real, Kabir and others, cool off guys . Keep the forum free of bottomless pit of emotive bickering. We know each other’s position and let us leave it there. Truce and ceasefire for a foreseeable future

  57. @AnAn, about expanding CAA-

    I laughed when I read “LBGTQ plus muslims” and “Female femnist muslims”

    I’m fine with atheist/agnostic ex-Muslims and maybe Hazara Shias being added to the list (because Hazaras have an ethnic angle to them too, although most persecution today is mainly because they’re Shias)

    I don’t get why there are so many different Sufi sects on the list though. Are you a fan of Sufism?

  58. now that iran has dumped india for china in charbahar port and railway, we can delink from the so called historical connection with it.
    on the other hand, i feel, iran did not have any other choice.

  59. I have been following reaction videos from Pakistani YouTube vloggers for over 2 years now. Yes, many of them are driven by YouTube’s views model and the ratrace for subscribers. However it offers a deep, undiscriminated and hitherto unseen look into the psyche of urban Pakistanis.

    I have modified my own world view of Paki society in the past few months. It might be that I am reacting on a personal level to the vloggers, however I do see a commonality among many reactions.

    1. Indian Street food reactions – many express surprise at the low prices of Indian servings. Even allowing for the exchange rate, there is still an element of disparity that I can sense.

    2. Temples – I am quite mystified by the tremendous amount of interest in temple videos. A lot of them are women. Granted there is a subscriber dynamic at play, still…..I think there is something else going on

    3. Bollywood movie reactions : Just so many to trip over. What’s interesting is that many subconsciously voice hinterland Hindi lingo while expressing their opinions. Somewhat like impressionable Indians putting on a fake West coast accent.

    4. Modi : wow, this one is a Freudian classic. The reactions sometimes will stop your thoughts completely. Many of them suggest that he is the son of a housemaid/labourer parents and for a period of time, apparently he lived under a bridge (lol). There is some level of denial but acceptance complex building up.

    5. Infrastructure: I can clearly see that Pakistani elites are in some kind of graduated disbelief to see the kind of infra across the border

  60. wow someone brought out Kabir’s inner Pak ethnonationalism. I did not think I would see the day he would make a comment like “dark madarasi troll.”

    Once again

    Nothing in S Asia can be understood, except in the light of the Steppe:AASI.

    Jai Shri Ameen

    1. That was not my finest hour and I apologize. Don’t ignore the fact that the Islamophobic troll repeatedly called me “inbred”, “retard” etc and kept saying my parents were cousins (when I clarified that they are not and neither were any of my grandparents).

      Anyway, I’m not going to be commenting here again. I don’t want to constantly take abuse. So you Hindutvadis can engage in fact-free rants about Pakistan as much as you like.

      1. Kabir, disagreements aside, you do seem to take a lot of critique of pakistan and islam personally. Its not for me to question why you feel obliged to take that burden, but I would hope that you aren’t under undue stress because of all of this. Sometimes it seems like you are refuting a dozen people at once. I suppose this concern applies to all the readers here, but I hope we all take care of our mental health and realize the “abuse” is not meant to be personal. I doubt we’d all be so savage in real life.

        1. Girmit,

          Thanks for the concern. You’re one of the relatively few people here that hasn’t resorted to personal attacks.

          Being Pakistani and Muslim are the core aspects of my identity. One can’t change the country one was born in (no matter what citizenship one acquires later) nor the faith of one’s ancestors. Having these characteristics being constantly attacked is toxic. There was a post a couple years back called “Pakistani psychosis”. Apparently this is OK but “Indian psychosis” offends people. Asides from things like country and religion, I have had my parents attacked on here (someone called them cousins and inbred) and my education etc. This is not on.

          Of course, I can respond in kind, but I don’t want to become that kind of person. So I am not going to spend time on a forum where people like me are not wanted. But I will note that good faith discussions with Pakistanis cannot be had if people will insist on insulting the Prophet of God (pbuh). That is a redline for every believing Muslim. Of course, my experience on BP has shown me that no one really wants to discuss anything with Pakistani Muslims, they just want to vent out their anti-Pakistan and anti-Islam opinions. This is no longer fun for me.

          Cheers.

    2. In plain English – even those who hate Serbs would like to be 100% one of them??

  61. Youtubers with reaction channels are not elite of Pakistan. They are after Indian views so over the top reactions are expected. See reaction of foreigners when they compare cleaness and infrastructure like world class motorway running through Pakistan with India.

    With 70% of Indian population practicing open defecation, you can guess which country foreigners find to be better cleaned.

    1. It is more than Pak but not 70%. Densely populated areas of Pak that are like India’s tend to be quite dirty. Karachi has a lot of sanitation issues.

      Nonetheless, I don’t think it is worth discussing this issue on a comparative level. Both need a lot of work.

      Also, it is hard to assess genuiness of bloggers. But enough also get a lot of views talking shit about places. So bot sure if they are doing these things always to only capture views.

      1. “ 500 million people have stopped defecating in the open since 2014, down from 550 million to less than 50 million today”

        https://www.unicef.org/india/what-we-do/ending-open-defecation

        India has actually made a lot of recent progress on this. It is embarrassing that this has been such a problem in India, so there is not much chest thumping about improvement.

        It’s also an issue mostly among Hindus compared to Muslims. So embarrassing from that standpoint as well.

        In any event, credit to the Indian government for tackling this problem and tremendous change. I am optimistic it will become a non-issue in a few years.

    2. Ugra merely spoke about his observations and you had to show your insecurities by making this another superiority contest. Anyway, since you asked for it, I’ll lay the facts down.

      I don’t even think there’s anything to debate here. India got more tourists in 2018 than Pakistan got in 2010-2018 put together (if the numbers are right). And please don’t come up with excuses like “India only gets more tourists because it’s bigger”, most European countries that receive tons of tourists are smaller in size compared to both India and Pakistan.

      You sound like one of those people who think that a few vloggers making videos means everything is fine, here’s an article for you to read-
      https://images.dawn.com/news/1182500

      Haven’t heard that “world class motorways/highways” argument in a very long time, used to see it a lot on Quora though. Nice coping mechanisms.

      And honestly, what difference does highways even make to most tourists? Do tourists arrive and depart on your motorways? Or do they extensively use highways to travel around the country? Since you really do want to compare modes of transport, I don’t mind

      Would’ve been better if you compared airports-
      3 Indian airports made it to the top 100
      https://www.worldairportawards.com/worlds-top-100-airports-2020/

      3 on this list too (Rajiv Gandhi International Airport made it to the top 10)-
      https://www.airhelp.com/en-in/airhelp-score/airport-ranking/

      And as someone who has seen plenty of tourists using metro systems (probably because the route I use includes the airport), I think pointing out the metro systems is fair too, I couldn’t find any relevant metro system comparisons but I was personally surprised to see the lack of metro systems in Pakistan-
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metro_systems

      India still has a long way to go in terms of infrastructure and tourism, but you trying to subtly talk about some sort of Pakistani superiority in tourism is a joke, that would be like me doing the same about China.

      Just gonna point to the Travel & Tourism Competitiveness Index to sum it up-
      https://reports.weforum.org/travel-and-tourism-competitiveness-report-2019/rankings/
      China scored 4.9
      India scored 4.4
      Pakistan scored 3.1

  62. It seems to me the Steppe ancestry/West Asian ancestry and the resulting phenotype is seen as superior as opposed to the AASI phenotypes. Would this be because of the British or the Vedic people’s and the introduction of the caste system or both?
    It’s deeply ingrained in South Asian societies as I witnessed when I visited Pakistan back in 2018. And Pakistan is a Muslim country. As far as India goes my cousin said the same thing when he visited Bihar.
    My mom still comments that I shouldn’t be outside in the sun too much, “Kaley hojou gai” lol

    1. That’s a bit of an understatement. The Indian subcontinent is the most deeply racist place in the world.

      If you’re AASI shifted, the only escape is moving to the US / UK / Canada, where the sky is the limit. People complain about racism in these countries, too, but it’s not even the tiniest fraction of the kind of racism you find in the Indian subcontinent. In fact, I’ve found it advantageous and many schools and employers in these countries are desperate for talented people of color.

      In the US / Canada, the only racism I have experienced is from other people from South Asia, who should generally be avoided like the plague if you are AASI-shifted.

      As someone AASI-shifted, I face more racism in a 2 week vacation to India than a lifetime in the US / Canada.

      1. In the US / Canada, the only racism I have experienced is from other people from South Asia, who should generally be avoided like the plague if you are AASI-shifted.

        would you want to come on the podcast to talk about this? i’m a bit ignorant about this since i didn’t grow up around browns

      2. Depends on what you mean by “AASI shifted”, are you speaking about skin colour or facial features or both?

        From what I’ve seen, it doesn’t really matter what your Steppe:AASI component is or what your facial features look like as long as you have fair skin. The fairer your skin, the more attention you get (provided you aren’t obese or malnourished looking of course).

        I’ve seen loads of cases where people with ridiculously good facial features don’t get much attention due to their skin colour being dark but those with not very symmetric features and such get attention solely due to their skin being light.

        There have been lots of changes in this mentality over the past few years though (at least in urban India).

        The government is making a move too, they’ve banned “skin whitening” product ads and fair&lovely was forced to rename their product, I think.

        1. There is an Indian tribal woman who gained attention online for looking like Rihanna, and became a model. Quite touching, but also highlights skin color and caste based discrimination in India…

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52iBeFeITfo

          There are a lot more Indians who can pass for off-black than off-white in an american context.

          The there is large contingent just look plain Indian (like me) and can’t pass as black or white.

          I hope the Indian entertainment industry embraces the full diversity of looks that are present in the country in the future.

    2. 1. Caste
      2. Western Invaders since antiquity
      3. Colonial Era
      4. USA global power
      5. Telecom and media projecting hollywood ideals
      6. Further perpetuated by Bollywood and West Punjabi actor domination

      End result is hatred of the AASI. Dark and “not sharp features” are just surrogates.

      So trolling will always happen. Kabir never did it so openly until today. I had great respect for that. I am disappointed. I know he falsely sees me as some Hindutavi troll, so I doubt he cares. But this is certainly a sad day on Brownpundits.

      He truly is a hypocrite

      1. Like I said, not my finest hour. The “Isthisreal” guy really pissed me off. I apologize.

        But you yourself have insulted the Prophet of God and gone on and on about “cousin marriage” etc. So don’t play the injured innocent.

        I’m a Pakistani nationalist. My issues with India are political in nature, not racial.

      2. \USA global power\

        Actually during 2nd WW , at the time Japanese successes many people in India rejoiced that white western powers have been bested. Actually it goes even earlier when Japan defeated Russia in Tshushima in 1905. However japs squandered that goodwill by being super exploitative and ended up as very bad guys at the end of the war.
        How about China as global power? will Asia take the bait ? I doubt . At the bottom of Japanese and possible Chinese expansion lies ethnic nationalism for which white/westerners are just one enemy, other cultures in Asia also don’t matter in their calculations

      3. not a fan of bentwig, but i assume the racism was a rxn to the anti-muslim stuff. doesn’t seem genuine to me.

        but racism is worse than antireligous stuff. religion is ideas. race is born

    3. “Kaley hojou gai”

      I had to read it a couple of times to get what that was. I wonder why Indian and Pakistani transliterations of the same spoken language are so different.

      I’d transliterate it as:
      “Kale ho jaoge”

      1. haleem can powerfully alter the senses, especially olfacation. The rhombencephlon is close to Papez Circuit of memory. The result is altered view of past reality which manifests as differences in speech.

        1. Haleem is gr8, its unfortunate that its not as well known in India, outside Muslim circles.

      2. “I wonder why Indian and Pakistani transliterations of the same spoken language are so different.

        The reason lies in the scripts of the two languages. In Urdu, future tense markers are written as a separate words. So this sentence in written in Urdu as

        کالے … ہو جاؤ … گے

        In Hindi, the tense markers are attached to preceding word.

        काले … हो … जाओगे

        It is just a convention. no real significance.

        1. I see.

          Does the script also lead to the difference in spellings?

          “jou” vs “jao”
          “gai” vs “ge”

      3. 2So much for #BlackLivesMatter 🙂

        ~

        @Prats
        There is no single way Pakistanis transliterate in Roman (nor Indians). Nothing much to do with semitic script whatever. The differences are mostly just drift due to lack of standardization of Hindi/Urdu orthography in Roman. Differences also reflect dialect substrates to limited extent, eg in my family whatsapp group “u” is usually spelt as “o” in Hindi loanwords (which reflects Kashmiri native phonetics).
        ~
        An interesting perspective on why BDS etc policies are rubbish and Indian academics must increase their collaboration with Israel:
        www(dot)theweek.in/news/world/2020/07/12/why-israel-is-kosher-for-indian-academic-collaborations.html

  63. ‘Dark skinned Madrasi’ LOL. Had to read that again, haven’t heard that since the 90’s.

    It’s crazy that with all the best degrees that the world has to offer, folks still resort to schoolyard chit-chat. Guess it’s true what they say, college degrees can’t buy wisdom.

    I can’t wrap my head around the phenotypic obsession displayed here. Here’s how it goes – Politics/Culture -> Kashmir -> Caste -> ‘I’m whiter than you’. So much White Privilege *SMH*.
    Looks like everyone needs to go on one of Robin DiAngelo’s seminars!

    1. That’s one way now Indthings has elevated above Kabir. Granted, he does show some racial hatred against gangetic plains peoples. But he at least does something unique and doesn’t fall the traditional hierarchy of “the less West Eurasian the worse.” He even notes this vapid form of thinking when he discusses how Afghans shit on Pakistanis who shit on NW Indians who shit on N Indians who shit on S Indians.

      1. That’s how the world works. Lighter means superior. Exceptions are there like Black entertainers which only in modern times is seen as cool.

        But yeah no one wants to be dark or black. Even Africans discrimanate against each other on colour or facial features.
        East Asians are the same way with their plastic surgery to have white Caucasian facial features.

        I wonder if Bollywood or any other South Asian Media will ever have a lead actor or model who looks like a tribal South Indian? I doubt it.

        1. That’s how the world works. Lighter means superior. Exceptions are there like Black entertainers which only in modern times is seen as cool.

          east asians have always found light skin attractive. but light hair/eyes has traditionally been ugly (witches). the epicanthic fold was seen as beautiful.

          the preference for the latter features will probably fade as white supremacy fades, since it’s a feature of the last few decades.

          the greeks and chinese had different attitudes toward color. greeks emphasized outdoor physical activity and so some of their heroes, such as herakles, were dark-skinned due to deep tans. the same sentiment explains why tans are seen as healthful today.

          so it’s a little more complicated. as south asian ppl get more into physical outdoor activity the color bias will become less associated with peasants. indian americans on the whole raised in the USA don’t seem to care that much.

  64. “But you yourself have insulted the Prophet of God”

    The prophet of God pbuh is unaffected by what homo sapiens think and say about him. He is not insulted. See the example of the woman who threw garbage and hate speach slurs on him while he walked.

    His inner Fana Fillah (when 24 hour perfect bliss and connection with Allah transforms into the death of the ego . . . . making us a pure 24 hour channel of Allah) is unaffected. Allah is unaffected.

    Kabir . . . laugh and enjoy . . . as Mohammed pbuh laughs and enjoys.

    What is wrong with your parents being 50th cousins or 100th cousins? We are ALL cousins. Just laugh and enjoy.

    Life is so beautiful as she moves from perfection to perfection.

    1. Insulting the Prophet of God (pbuh) is redline for every believing Muslim. This is not acceptable.

      1. no one gives a shit what is acceptable to muslims.

        just like you are free to make fun of Hinduism and monkey-gods.

        he consummated with Aisha when she was 9. that’s a ‘red line’ for me. worse than epstein

        1. Applying the moral standards of the 21st century to 7th century Arabia is frankly idiotic. Childhood is a socially constructed notion. Shakespeare’s Juliet was married at the age of 12. That was normal in those days. My own maternal grandmother was a mother by the age of 15 in 1940s British India.

          Not insulting the Prophet of God is the minimum respect due to Muslims. But of course if you have no desire to encourage good faith participation by Muslims or Pakistanis, then don’t question why your forum is a Hindu Right cesspool.

          Go ahead and ban me. I don’t care.

          1. Applying the moral standards of the 21st century to 7th century Arabia is frankly idiotic. Childhood is a socially constructed notion.

            puberty is not Mr. English major. having sex with prepubescent children is considered aberrant in most societies (apparently Arabia was the exception even during that time!).

          2. There are hadiths that state that Hazrat Aisha had reached puberty before their marriage was consummated.

            Anyway, harping on this on this forum is only to disrespect Muslims. No one is arguing that marrying a 9 year old is acceptable in this day and age. Even the Islamic Republic of Pakistan has laws regulating the age of marriage for girls as 16 or 18, depending on the province.

          3. First para is acceptable- don’t apply 21st c to 7th C Arabia.
            Second para is not acceptable on many counts.
            Lexical bot throws out the word ‘Hindu right ‘ with cesspool for a good measure. Look at the usage of this blog
            https://www.brownpundits.com/2020/07/13/brown-pundits-reader-survey-2020/
            25% conventional theists and 37% atheists.
            Less than 25% view Hindu nationalism favourably
            Only 36% are Hindus
            40% Readers are white
            How does it all add upto “Hindu Right” ???
            Why should any internet forum become “encourage good faith participation by Muslims” as if this is a Jaish-e-Mohammed meeting

          4. The people who leave anti-Islam comments are Hindutvadis (and our resident Serbian nationalist). Whatever White people read this blog don’t spend time trashing Islam.

            The point is that even the most liberal Muslims take offense at insults to the Prophet of God. This is not a good strategy if you want any dialogue with Muslims. The fact that you brought in Jaish-e-Muhammad only reflects the depths of your Islamophobia.

  65. @AnAn

    Surely you mean as Mohamed laughed and enjoyed (in past tense)? There’s like his grave and everything in S Arabia. Or is the standard Islamic claim that Mohamed is immortal somehow?

  66. In every south asian region castes who are relatively lighter skinned are top dogs while poorest castes cleaning toilets tend to be AASI looking.

    This apply to madrasis as well because they have similar caste system between middle/upper castes and tribals despite no obvious racial indo-aryan penetration.

    At the same time its quite stupid to assume every madrassi is cleaning toilets because people in your region who do that are dark skinned.

    1. The chief ministers of most states in India are dark or swarthy. Google it up. You seem to be a special kind of snake oil salesman.

    2. \no obvious racial indo-aryan \

      Indo-aryan is a linguistic term , not social . There is no Indo-aryan race, there are Indo-aryan languages , starting from vedic to present day ones

    3. \This apply to madrasis\

      There are no madrassis; Province of Madras finished in the 50s. Even the city of Madras changed the name 20 yaers back. South Indians would not like to be clubbed as a single entity madrassis, as each state has it’s identity. In the days of Madras Province, there was some justification , nowadays none.

      That caste system is prevalent all over south Asia is an obvious fact

  67. In every south asian region castes who are relatively lighter skinned are top dogs while poorest castes cleaning toilets tend to be AASI looking.

    this is false in the NW. this was evidence in the harappa project. in punjab and into pakistan some of the higher castes are mor AASI than some of the lower (tho not lowest) castes. the jats are not the only example (and yes, they are not low caste, but they are lighter than punjabi brahmins).

    and in pakistan the immigrant of mohajirs and presence of non-elite iranians mixes things up a lot.

  68. I’ve seen loads of cases where people with ridiculously good facial features don’t get much attention due to their skin colour being dark but those with not very symmetric features and such get attention solely due to their skin being light. abritrage opportunity

  69. RE: General
    I was away for a week and what could I see after quick skimming? An old Serbian proverb says: When the cat’s away, the mice will play (and write comments behind my back). Specifics later, but having mentioned the word Serb, let see some objections. It was mentioned – that I write exclusively about this topic (in OT and other threads), they are irritating, they are eyesore (the last one comes from a jihadist!).

    Let me repeat again – I write about Euro(Serbian)-SA history connections, often hidden and forbidden, mostly ancient but contemporary, too. Depending on the topic I also sometimes write, as everyone else, about global politics/cultural issues, which are not specifically brown. Why there are many Serbian related comments? Let see some BP topics in last week or so:

    – Myth from history, Genetic distance in Europe and South Asia, The Jats and Indo-Aryan expansion in South Asia, The Jat Gene!, American caste! (?), The Arctic home of the Aryans, Chariots and Aryans, Genetic Origins of the Proto-Indo-Europeans, Resilience in the face of religious change, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Lord Indra the brutal!, The memory of Lord Indra, Haunted by history, etc.

    Serbs and their history are parts of all previous topics. Let me make some estimate – 95% of thinking pundits consider that Aryans migrated/invaded SA. Almost all of them think that they were so-called Slavics. However, many still have mental barriers to comprehend that they actually were Serbian speaking tribes because the ‘Slavic’ is a fairly recent term.

    To make short: BP has a good functionality called Recent Comments (I asked to be 25), where anyone can choose, which comments and/or threads to read. It is simple to skip unwanted comments. It is unbelievable that someone would like to censor OT (!?) although no one is forced to read all comments. It is even more unbelievable that someone (marked alternatively as a psycho-tic/moron-ic) who speaks from the lowest civilisations levels, wants to prohibit commenting by the people he dislikes.

  70. RE: Unexpected alliance

    There was no surprise to me that a strange alliance was made by OIT (the remaining 5% from the above comment) and J40, i.e. JTTT&T (Jihadists and Triple Talaq Taqiyyamen). The first camp called my comments irritating, the later – eyesore. It is a bit surprise considering that J40 also (for practical reasons – to argue with Hindutva) believe in Aryans, although they don’t have interest in history nor anything else that requires more than a half of brain. Both urged Razibishka for me to be banned.

    Considering that J40 is bellow any sensible dialog, just to say a sentence or two to OIT. I am not AIT, but I am not happy that they are slowly slipping in lunacy. They got marginalised in every discussion that involves genetics, linguistics, or common sense. It is sad that they, in their frustration, are siding with J40 in approving the jihadists’ ride to steal the Sveta Sofia Christian church after they had already stolen their land and killed millions of people.

    They expressed their frustration in asserting that Constantine and Justinian were not Serbs. They use a pseudo-scientific explanation, which is actually a Vatican’s fabrication, that Serbs lived in an unspecified location and in the 7thc.AC migrated to Balkan. This is also the official version of the world history for morons. Considering that this is a cornerstone of the world history, we will dedicate a separate comment to discuss this. It is interesting that NOT ONE supporting evidence or primary source account exist for this official version of history. I challenge OIT to present ONE ONLY primary source, let say within 250 years after the alleged migration. Any account from a Roman public servant, army, border patrol, customs, historian, philosopher, poet, paparazzo, gladiator, random bystander, bum, anyone! If they find one evidence, I will pay $1000 to any chosen OIT cause.

    In meantime, they can ask Razib about “mahabharata and ramayana (and vedas and bhagavad gita) are identified with the aryans. these grand myths are foundational to indian civilization” and watch 5-min, 3D presentation (there is also a film about the archaeological site) of the remains of Justiniana Prima, the capital of the Illyric province, which Justinian built in the village where he was born (Caricin grad=Empress city) in today’s southern Serbia. In the neighbouring village, Bederiana, was born his uncle, the Roman Emperor Justin (ruled 518-527).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsphkU1y3Gs

  71. A separate homage comment for people with integrity, courage, principles, erudition and justice who stud up against primitivity, groupthink, naked lies, hypocrisy on the day when barbarity attacked spirituality and faiths of all believing.

    IsThisReal – a rising commenting star, excellent analysis of mafia organisation with a dash of Xerxie, StraightGuy – a truth seeker and a researcher, intelligence and wit, Anan – the top BP erudite, APthk – top knowledge, sharp shooter, no taking prisoners , VV – so much wisdom under this amber hat

    This barbarity created a precedent which is expected to be followed by Kosovo Albanian Muslims who intend to steal 2000 Christian churches and monasteries up to 1000 years old and where is NO ONE Muslim medieval monument.

    For everyone to persist in their chosen spiritualities and faiths:

    Jonathan Jackson – KOSOVO (JOY OF ALL WHO SORROW) (5 min)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-uZhYEWi6k

  72. grew up in nyc metro area. Lot of Indians in nyc itself where I lived for a bit and then in NJ burbs. Racism was common growing up. Didn’t matter how light skinned or west eurasian you looked. It was less in towns with big desi populations, where cliques of “jock” and “cool” ones existed.

    I mostly faced bullying for being a short and skinny nerd (late bloomer- dad was even same way in India and paternal uncles). The desi part was secondary.

    1. warlock, i’ve grown up between nyc and the south. my experience is that people up north are more confrontational in general so the ethnic slurs flow more freely. There is less shame in heckling a stranger. Even black and latin people will talk serious trash to indians. Furthermore, although perhaps whites are still a nominal majority in these places, on the street it doesn’t seem that way , so they are starting to show more in-group behaviour and don’t really feel compelled towards noblesse oblige in their dealings with non-whites. Add to that, as many of their forbearers are post-emancipation immigrants they aren’t really reckoning with the same white guilt as settler stock whites.
      OTOH, I used to hear this from white friends down south apologizing for hostile remarks from other whites “they aren’t racist, just ignorant”. I thought it was a cop out back then, but in retrospect it seems true, most of these “racists” reformed and adapted to desegregation over time. Because of segregation, in some ways redlining was less important down south because you could be assured that the kids wouldn’t mix at school. Now, the public schools are incredibly mixed and i feel like that integration is core to the southern experience. There is a reason why black americans see places like atlanta, charlotte, and dallas as great places to be a minority professional, and to some extent this applies to south asians as well. The only issue is dealing with the boredom of a banal streetscape compared to the more dense and eclectic northern cities.

  73. @Razib,

    In punjab people cleaning toilets are poorest and tend to be AASI looking.

    Even among muhajirs in Karachi calling someone chamaar in derogatory manner is popular insult. They too have their own ashraf-ajlaf caste dynamics.

    Pathans have their own caste dynamics with hamsayas who tend to be dark skinned artisans/menial workers. This is more of KP thing though which was historically majority indic region. Its still quite indic in character compared to Afghanistan.

    I will not get too much in to AASI on harappa and phenotype when it comes to relatively similar population genetically. Punjabi brahmins are not darker then jats at all from what I’ve seen.

    @Ugra,

    CMs being dark skinned doesn’t disprove my point.

    1. i’m a geneticist. i’m talking about admixture percentages, which i know quite well.

      if you want to focus on physical stuff, that’s not my pay-grade. you can talk about skull measurements and von luschan scales, i wouldn’t know 😉

    2. @Raz – if you want me to state it more brutally – the “darker” regions of India (South) are more economically advanced and have an industrial pedigree that is an order of magnitude higher than Pakistan or Afghanistan (North West), the supposedly fair regions.

      The poorest people in these regions are at your 50 percentile level. And they have a bigger cultural footprint across Asia than you will ever have.

      Your trope only exists in Pakistani textbooks.

  74. *trolling warning*
    *upset after seeing the material below, so trolling*

    Another mass conversion in Pakhanistan.

    22 Hindu, Men, Women and Children are converted to Islam in Masjad Mohammadi, Ahel-e- Hadith, Tehsil Sanjhoro, District Sangar, Sindh-Pakistan. 10-7-2020

    https://mobile.twitter.com/johnaustin47

    Please look at the other tweets too, the rate at which Rahat shares these is depressing. Rape, murder, blackmail, abuse, slavery take your pick it is all there within last week’s post.

    This is what happens to Hindus/Christians of Acronymistan in 2020, I can only imagine how kind and accommodating Aurangzeb Alamgir was. After extermination of Hindus from ‘muslim lands’, perpetual victim liars (conveniently living in ‘secular land’) will deny all of this and misquote (like the riot-instigator Jinnah’s 2 redeeming speeches) and obfuscate (like the psycho pedo slaver’s debauchery).

    1. No one is defending forced conversions or whatever. However, there is NEVER any call for insulting the Prophet of God. You are just being gratuitously disrespectful.

      Your obsession with Pakistan and Islam is very tiresome. Get a life.

  75. Stumbled upon this gem while going thru the thread.

    “Childhood is a socially constructed notion.”

    how ludicrous one can get! every culture knows who are its children and who are the adults. children are physically and biologically different from adults. there are no differing definitions of childhood among societies. this statement is beyond stupid.

  76. i think he’s alluding to the reality in many societies children are basically treated like small adults and work on the farm and such starting at 5 years of age. this is a semantic game. ‘western childhood’ is a new thing where things like leisure and primary school are emphasized.

    kabir is, to be frank, not that smart, and he regularly confuses the pointer/signifier for the thing itself.

    marrying teens is not uncommon in many societies. so if Muhammad married a 13 year old, yuck, but hey. but few societies sanction sex with literal children (though there are hadith that seem to suggest she had early puberty?).

    i can make kabir’s argument better than he can.

    1. The point is that this idea that 18 is the age at which someone goes from child to adult is arbitrary and socially constructed. What magically happens at 18 that doesn’t apply at 17?

      As the example of “Romeo & Juliet” shows, people were considered adults at puberty. Juliet is 13 or 14 and Romeo is maybe two years older. Both are considered of marriageable age.

      You have no idea of my academic ability so don’t patronize me.

      1. You have no idea of my academic ability so don’t patronize me.

        this is like telling someone “you have no idea how good-looking i am” when they are standing right in front of you.

        you write incessantly and exhibit no deep knowledge of the topics which you proffer opinions about.

        otoh, perhaps you have a good voice little bird…

  77. possible effects of iran – india decoupling:
    1. india is free to do business and politics in arab world. this will be similar to india’s decoupling from palestine…
    2. pak-iran conflict in balochistan/sistian will reduce, due to chinese mediation, thus freeing pakistani forces there to be sent to the indian front.
    3. long term usefulness of chabar port was suspect, as a taliban govt in kabul will hardly deal with india.
    4. it will be very difficult for shias of india to look up to iran for moral leadership. they might go deep into bjp.
    5. india may heat up balochistan more.
    6. gawadar vs chabar will be interesting.

    1. possible effects of iran – india decoupling:
      1. india is free to do business and politics in arab world. this will be similar to india’s decoupling from palestine…
      At the heart of it Arabs are plainly stupid desert baddus while Persians are smarter. In short to medium term Arabs are a better choice of ally. If Iran gets 20-ish years good run it could annihilate Arab competition. In the long run Iran will win in both scenarios(i.e. (a)it remains belligerent mullah state and Arab oil runs out, (b) if the Iranian revolution fails,Ayatollahs loose, Iran becomes a normal country and the Arab oil runs out). Anyways India has historically kept it’s own interest well guarded, we had supported Saddam against Iran for quite some time.
      2. pak-iran conflict in balochistan/sistian will reduce, due to chinese mediation, thus freeing pakistani forces there to be sent to the indian front.
      It was a minor irritant even at it’s peak.
      3. long term usefulness of chabar port was suspect, as a taliban govt in kabul will hardly deal with india.
      Long term prospects of Gwadar are also suspect. Pakistanis are hysterical and over-hype it. Let them waste their time and energy nothing we say or do will make them better or worse.
      4. it will be very difficult for shias of india to look up to iran for moral leadership. they might go deep into bjp.
      5. india may heat up balochistan more.
      India doesn’t have the will or the capacity to pull anything (that would be worth the global shaming that follows) off.
      6. gawadar vs chabar will be interesting.
      World of infrastructure projects doesn’t work like that. On timescales tending to 10 to 15+ years all kinds of crazy projections can be made on power point presentations. But real world is messy, in the best of circumstances these would be D-tier ports. India wants to sell stuff to Iran and Afghanistan, it will do it one way or the other. Even in the worst case scenario there is always Bandar Abbas.
      Most geostrategy people are idiots. Don’t take their plans and projections seriously.

  78. In the ancient world consumating marriage before the age of 14 was deeply frowned upon. There use to be two ceremonies on two dates. Date of marriage and date at which someone becomes a de facto wife.

    Consumating a marriage (which is different from marrying) at the age of 9 would have been deeply controvertial in early 600s AD Arabia.

    Sahih Bukhari and Hazrat Aisha’s own account list the age of 9 years.

    If the account of consummation at age 9 is false, this implies that the 6 hadiths (Kutub al-Sittah) are suspect, that Sunni Islam is suspect, and that Shariah law is suspect.

    This would leave Muraqabah Sufi Islam, Muraqabah Irfan Sufi Shia Islam and liberal Islam as the remaining legitimate forms of Islam.

    This would also imply that blasphemy and hate speech laws are no longer Islamic . . . which means that no one has to write and say pbuh. This would imply that muslims can have free art and thought.

    Glad we cleared that up.

    1. You are neither a Muslim nor an academic who has specialized in Islamic studies so your attempts to discredit Sunni Islam (by far the Islamic mainstream) are irrelevant. Your opinion on Sharia law also will not change what Muslims believe. You give yourself too many airs. Stay in your lane.

      We don’t write “peace be upon him” out of fear of blasphemy laws. It is the minimum mark of respect for the Prophet of God, whom we love above all else. Non-Muslims don’t understand this.

      1. Using “call to authority” on “darkie bodies” is violence against “darkie bodies”.

        Hashtag #Black Lives Matter

        +++++++++++++

        Bra . . . watch 1 minute 16 seconds in:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yla7stz1woA

        Black Lives Matter says “We Are All Muslims”

        Ergo 7.8 billion homo sapien sapien moderns are muslims.

        Why are you dissing Black Lives Matter? Sounding awfully white supremacist.

        Hashtag #Black Lives Matter

        1. Stop spouting nonsense. One is a Muslim if one can sincerely say “There is no god but Allah and Muhammad (pbuh) is his Prophet”.

          Someone like you who believes in infinite number of Hindu gods is definitely NOT a Muslim. Stay in your lane.

          1. “Stay in your lane.”

            this kufar can only speak in mantras 😉

            you can take the identity out of the hindu, but you can’t take the hindu out of the brown muslim.

  79. I think a change of topic is needed. Too much fighting and vitriol going on; let us do something constructive: What do you think about blockchain? I was contemplating of investing my time in developing a blockchain-based solution; I think there are applications in IoT for it too. Hence the question: Should a prospective computer engineering graduate student invest time in it? Do you all have any experience with it? Or is this blog the wrong place to discuss blockchain? I suppose maybe we can even start debating maths topics like Functional analysis — better activity than the cultural and religious wars going on here.
    Let us all take inspiration from John Nash or better still C. V. Raman, Ramanujan and develop a mathematical theory for the real world. For now: go Bitcoin!!!

    1. Let me support you in this, it is much better way to invest your time. OT should work as you propose. Anyone can start new topic and other may or may not build on this. Sometimes, no one would be interested to react on this, that is fine, too. If new topic becomes interested to many, Razib probably will open new thread with this specialised topic. It is very wrong that some wish to censor the list of topics which they don’t like in OT. Btw, I was expecting that you would give priority to research the meaning of the term ‘Asia’ but if it is too much time consuming for you, just forget.

      1. I am interested in history in general; but I was using OIT/AMT debate to learn more about my culture. Plus, I know about those arguments. I do like other histories, like Napolean, Hannibal (awesome general), Joan of Arc (how could she defeat the English?), etc.

        Asia seems to be a word Greeks used for Anatolia that everyone started using afterward. Slavs and the far side of Anatolia seem to have some connection to it btw. My view is that ancient Serbs were on the trade route of Harappans; either Serbs shared ancestry, i.e., a common origin with IVC, or they were culturally aligned with it. This is possible as they were on the far east of Anatolia, and therefore they were on the trade route of Harappa. I suppose the Serb and Sanskrit connection was the underlying reason why the Anatolian Hypothesis was so prevalent; steppe theory does a poor job in explaining this as far as I know.

        How is Serbia? Do you live there? I once went to Bratislava in Slovakia; eastern Europe was very different from Western. Why don’t they surpass France, Switzerland, etc?

        1. It is good to know well own culture, but it should be objective and to have a critical distance. I have sympathy for OIT because they try to defend and promote Indian culture, but some their starting points are unsustainable. Without specifics, it is unsustainable assertion that in all these movements of people during the ancient period, India was an isolated island. It was already proved by genetics and linguistics, mythology is less researched, about toponyms, I think, only I wrote so far. You maybe came recently and did not have opportunity to read my BP article about toponyms in CA and SA. I may have a win-win proposition for AMT/OIT conflict, but it is needed to be articulated by one of you, local guys. I think that Nilesh and Anan can do this, but we need to wait for Nilesh to be less rigid. The problem is that especially OIT think that they can win the argument. On the lower levels, OIT may have more proponents but among intellectuals it is very opposite.

          In addition, OIT and Indian scholars in general, only see Oxbridge scholars and have some inferiority complex towards them. Western scholars do not want to solve this dilemma and, often, many of them are acting to justify and preserve past colonial practices. Instead of this, Indian scholars should take the initiative and dictate the discussion agenda. You may find your place in this picture and to be, in 5-10 years, a leading authority in a chosen field of research (in parallel with bitcoins). There are so many areas for research, I may propose some.

          For example, it is an excellent observation about insufficiently explored area of the meeting between Harappa and new migrants and the transition period. Also, Silk Route – who did silk trade via SR and via Serendib using the ocean route. What was the territorial organisation (kingdoms, etc) established by newly arrived migrants? Also, another excellent observation about Serbs in Anatolia. I may later add some things, don’t want to be too lengthy.

          Not bad for (wiki) ‘Asia’, but it needs to be more specific. I may soon write something with a wider context and to explain the origin of the term. SA people should know what is the A. But, I can also say that a huge majority of European people don’t know the origin of the word ‘Europe’. Actually, hardly anyone knows. They would be surprised if you tell them that for e.g. one of old names of Teheran was Europe. People don’t know because this part of history in both cases is hidden. Hannibal – very interesting! Bloody geese! Do you know who was him? I will write also about Alexander the Great, who is an important part of SA history. Just curious – do you know without any research who was he, for e.g. – a Greek or something else? Currently ‘global’, not in Serbia, playing catch-up with C19. Stay cool.

        2. “I once went to Bratislava in Slovakia; eastern Europe was very different from Western. Why don’t they surpass France, Switzerland, etc?”

          The difference in cognitive abilities are quite minor, at least if you look at PISA tests. So that isn’t the main issue.

          My experience with Eastern Europeans is that the main distinction instead lies in attitude/mindset.

          The first difference of major significance is that Westerners, on average of course, tend to be much more meticulous. There are a lot of EE construction workers, electricians etc where I live in Northern Europe.

          We have a saying, if you want something done good, get a native. If you want it done cheap and fast (but with questionable quality), get a Slav.

          They are hard-working to be sure, but to be the very best you need a certain mindset which I find lacking. There are other issues, like much more corruption in daily life (this is especially the case the further east you go). There are some similarities with southern countries, especially places like Italy.

          I’ve also found them less capable of taking care of money. Even when comparing their proles to ours, it is much more common to see them drinking it all away. This is an old stereotype (look at any old German imperial map portraying Slavs).

          I think their potential is probably where Spain or Italy is for the best countries (Slovenia, Czechia). Which is still very good in a global sense but not at the highest caliber and likely never will be.

          1. To add: mindset = will + motivation + (exposure + guidance)
            The 4 terms are mostly a function of society, education, expectation, and economic development. I believe schooling + society makes the difference between countries.

    2. Write something elementary about Bitcoin that we can read and benefit from.
      What do you want to discuss about functional analysis? Any interesting material is game for me. Can’t speak for the geneticist people here but there are quite a few engineering people around who might chip in.
      Finally just curious but what is your background in Maths/CS?
      I visit Terence Tao’s blog and https://gowers.wordpress.com/ (blogroll and other links on the right are very good) for mathematical tit-bits and tips. Certainly don’t have anything remotely original and hardly anything accessible for everyone to share about Functional analysis.

      1. I was thinking about creating a static website based blog on Github-pages for documenting what I have read; Statistics is also something that I have to master and could be useful for the genetics people here. Or do you think any other method for blog creation is better? My main motivation is to host all the learning material that I read as well as write what I understood for revision and documentation purposes. I can include what I have learned about bitcoin there, but I have not written a technical post, especially for explaining to others; I can surely try. So many things I have to remember; it is high time I create a blog/static website.

        Functional analysis (I am a beginner) is something that I have found to be pertinent for AI/ML; I am learning various eclectic maths topics such as Abstract algebra, Complex analysis, etc.; maybe I will document those if I get a chance. My background has been mixed from a degree in electrical engineering (I don’t know whether I learned anything or not?); experience in the business analytics field; to research: I have published 3 papers (1 in IEEE Sensors, 2 in IEEE equivalent journals with IF around 3). Regarding CS, I have done some courses in that field and applied those skills for solving technical problems: particularly, my IEEE paper was about continuous railway track fault monitoring using trains; it required algorithm development, mathematical modeling, and IoT (the research could be very impactful worldwide in reducing train accidents). I am also working on expanding my CS skills; everybody has to as the only good industry is CS in India. What I found from my research work was that maths skills are the most important abilities to do creative stuff in engineering.

        1. Do you follow Andrew Gelman’s blog then? It is really good for statistics discussion. I am firmly on the side of what Taleb calls “Russian probabilities” when it comes to understanding stats. Most of the stats discussion and data analysis on the web is superficial and lacks a deeper understanding of what is a “representative sample”.

          I am almost scared to look at rest of comments on this post and usually scroll past. But I am all for engineers learning applied math for stats. Good luck!

          1. Chris Olah maintains a fantastic blog as well. Thoroughly recommend to anyone who wants to know more about ML. My interview questions tend to be from it.

            I think his document on information theory is so lucid that it can be used to explain the concept to school kids.

          2. Thank you all for your responses. It was nice to find people who share a passion for technical studies. I will respond later on with a detailed post. I am creating a simple blog, perhaps later on everybody can contribute to making it bigger.

  80. About English racism: “Stoke’s James McClean says he has received “more abuse than any other player” during his nine-year spell in England but has had no support from the football authorities, the media or his Republic of Ireland teammates……”

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/jul/14/james-mcclean-says-he-gets-more-abuse-than-any-other-player-but-no-support-stoke

    ……It is interesting that he started his career in Derry, Northern Ireland in Trojans F.C.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojans_F.C.

    How come that this FC got its name? Is there a link btw the city of Troy and Irish Celts? Raseni, descendants of Eneida from Troy, who founded the city of Rome (Ruma), also founded the city of London (Milton: ‘London – the city built by Dardanian hands’) and gave the city its first name – New Troy. Dardanians, not Greeks, lived in Troy.

  81. Ugra,

    You missed the point. Even in south India darker races are discriminated. This discrimination then is replicated in USA where in tech vast majority are upper caste south indians shitting on few dalit south indians.

    1. I read an article about this too (south indian techies discriminating other darker south indian techies) that Razib recently shared I believe on Twitter or here.

      Frankly I just don’t believe it. The article even stated that someone was looking for a janeu while feeling through the persons shirt. It was utterly ridiculous. Name the company, name the individual, file a lawsuit and lets get to the bottom of it. Just randomly saying this on some random publication just doesn’t make it true.

      Caste based discrimination exists and its a real problem, but quite frankly the idea that south indian techies living in silicon valley are doing it just doesn’t pass the bullsht test for me.

      This is a sub community I’m very familiar with. Most south indian tech guys are atheist or agnostic. And the idea that this is commonplace in this community is utterly ridiculous. Just feels like a reach by some journalist.

      1. “The article even stated that someone was looking for a janeu while feeling through the persons shirt”

        I dont know if its related but sometime back i read abt it in Tamil Nadu cricket association where some tam brahms cricket selectors used the same way to find out some cricket trialists caste . Coming from N-India, i am not sure how prevalent it is, because in North there are other markers to identify someone’s caste.

      2. That story is just a hoax, depending on who you talk to and believe me, I have heard at least 3 versions of the same story – different people, different country, different setting – but somehow it ended up that the person is searched for his sacred thread.

    2. This discrimination then is replicated in USA where in tech vast majority are upper caste south indians shitting on few dalit south indians.

      i know the bay area indian tech community. friends with many. you sound like an ignorant moron who doesn’t know what they are talking about but just relaying what the media says uncritically.

      my prior is now to think you are generally full of shit when it’s not something trivial.

      thanks for clarifying.

    3. \ south India darker races are discriminated.\
      Which are the darker “races” in south India or even India ?

      Race concept does not easily map into Indian society. As david Reich said China has a huge population, while India has a large number of small populations, By small pops he means castes.

      Caste is the reality in India , not race

      1. “Race” is probably the wrong way to think about it, but colorism definitely exists. Fair and lovely (though they recently changed their name) still sells briskly.

        Kallu is a slur which is not exactly extinct. A lot of this is dressed up as playful jokes etc, but such jokes can and do hurt. It’s my impression that colorism is much worse in India than in the diaspora.

        As always in these debates, there is rarely (if ever) a single factor at play. Many can and do overlap in different ways. Though from talking to people in India and abroad, something many tell me is the common Western perception that skin-color maps closely to caste is a myth.

    4. Just a quick clarification, approximately how many races are there in India? How many of them are darker races of south India? You seem to know a lot about them, so would be great to hear it from your perspective.

      1. Talking of Indian “races” , it was Herbert Risley who first gave a classification like Indo-aryan, dravido-aryan, mongolo-dravidian, dravidian, etc etc. This all reflected the 18th/19th century race theories prevalent in Europe , this was partly based on languages and partly on physical measurements like nose, head length, breadth, chin size, hair , etc
        https://www.yourarticlelibrary.com/essay/anthropology/racial-classification-of-indian-people-by-different-anthropologist/41839
        Basically all this ‘racial classification’ has been given up in free India as utter nonsense and rightly so.
        So, when Raz talks of races in India , he or she about 100 years out of date – obsolete terminology.

  82. I rather believe in media where USA dalits have reported caste discrimination then anecdotal evidence of family and friends.

    Hopefully this is more of thing among H1B or something visa FOB then those who were born and brought up in USA.

    1. I rather believe in media where USA dalits have reported caste discrimination then anecdotal evidence of family and friends.

      i lived in the bay. i know/have known hundreds of techies.

      you ‘believe the media’. with all due respect the woman writing the article is a dalit activist, which is fine. but you think she’s objective?

      are not aware that the media is filled with bullshitting liars as well as honest players? (speaking as someone who has written in slate new york times and plenty of other places).

      anyway, i assume you don’t know what you are talking about now, because you obviously don’t. thanks for making that clear.

    1. “A medieval Hindu-Muslim syncretic Jogi sect

      https://scroll.in/article/833710/far-from-hindutva-yogi-adityanath-comes-from-a-tradition-that-was-neither-hindu-nor-muslim

      The author knows little about the Nath Sampradaaya, the 6 Shaivite Sampradaayas, the Yoga Darshana or any of the 10 major Darshanas.

      The article is horribly written.

      Sufi/Shia/Parsi/Jaina/Mahayana/Teravada/Sikhi/Vaishava (5 major Sampradaayas)/Shaivite (6 major Sampradaayas)/Yoga/Bahai/Dattatreya/Ganapathi/Samkhya/Jewish fussion is the heart of the eastern ethos. This is the ethos of Vajpayee, Modi, Yogi Adityanath, Subramanian Swamy etc.

  83. Now that the UK has moved to a points based immigration system, I think we’ll see many Indians start to move here like Canada in recent years. Already the NHS is chock full of Indian doctors, many of who were working at big Pvt hospitals like Apollo back in India and earning well but who moved because of the disillusionment with the Indian medical system and the attraction of working in socialised healthcare, and of course the better quality of life.

    I see many Indians blame the gov’t for the continuation of the brain drain – for example they say starting a business is still very bureaucratic, the education and university system not keeping pace with the rest of the world, lack of well paying jobs, etc. But I think the rot lies deeper. Even well earning upper middle class folk are getting out while they can, and I think this points to the appaling quality of urban life more than anything else. It’s no secret that Indian cities aren’t planned and every inch of space is gobbled by the builder mafia rather than creating public amenities.

    The question of migration is a tough one, since even countries with a order of magnitude of GDP per capita and HDI more than India like in E and S Europe struggle to hold on to their best talent against N and W Europe. That, and the low ranking of the Indian passport for global travel will only make it harder for India to hold on to the globally minded and ambitious in the middle class. What do the folks on here think?

    1. India is too full of people.
      Everybody who can get out, should get out.
      They would do themselves, India and the world a huge favor by doing this.

      The ideal population size for India would be ~300 million people, same as what it was around Independence in 1947.

      1. The world a favor? I’m sure the rest of the world is just dying to take in Indians.

        1. White emigration to the Americas and Australia has been a net benefit to the human race, despite the native American and Australians getting a very raw deal.

          Similarly Indian emigration to anywhere is going to be a net benefit. Indians are generally industrious, law-abiding individuals who make positive contributions to any society where they migrate to.

          Ofcourse, nativists in the rest of the world won’t welcome this. My point is that Indians should use any tools at their disposal to make it possible despite resistance.

    2. I think about 50 million Indians from the top 10 percentile and the middle 40-60 percentile need to emigrate out to the World. This can be any geography – Africa, Far East, South America – apart from the usual suspects like Europe and North America.

      The reason being that emigration offers a quicker way to accelerate social mobility in India. A lot of UPSC aspirants from the lower percentiles of the economic ladder are now making it into the Services, thanks to the emigration of elites in the last 3 decades.

      I do not think that brain drain has a negative impact on the Indian system in the long run – rather it creates a steady stream of remittances, relieves pressure on the crowded polity and improves visibility of the Indic brand.

      The administrators perhaps recognize these linkages – thats why we have a steady stream of initiatives that help – example, the OCI scheme. Also India has been pressing for inclusion of free movement of professionals (just like capital or services) into bilateral agreements with major countries.

      1. \I think about 50 million Indians from the top 10 percentile and the middle 40-60 percentile need to emigrate out to the World\

        hahaha. It could have been possible in the 16th/17th C . But Indians were too inward looking for energetic exploration of the world or exploitation of the world. Now whites sit everywhere and rule the roost. Even now Indians, definitely Hindus are too inward looking – even the main business of the Indian state and govt is to keep power balance between various castes. Indian mentality has not been internationally oriented and that snobbery of laziness comes as ‘we have not invaded any other country for 5000 years’

        1. @VijayVan – you are channeling the Fukuyama spirit. Almost stating that history is over and Indians have missed the bus. Nothing could be further from the truth – the annual UN report states that migrants (excluding refugees), as an absolute number and as a percentage, are rising.

          Two major reasons – the relatively low risk modes of intercontinental travel, communication networks and the portability of modern currency are driving this number higher and higher

  84. “The question of migration is a tough one, since even countries with a order of magnitude of GDP per capita and HDI more than India like in E and S Europe struggle to hold on to their best talent against N and W Europe. That, and the low ranking of the Indian passport for global travel will only make it harder for India to hold on to the globally minded and ambitious in the middle class.”

    I would say things will turn out differently in India, because of the size of the population it’s not viable for the rest of the world to take in Indian immigrants indefinitely before it affects their demographics. By comparison, historically migratory countries such as Armenia, Ireland and Lebanon can empty their whole countries and migrate wholesale to a mid-large size nation without it having to big an effect on the country taking in these incomers. (Ireland is quite wealthy now so comparatively less emigration from there now)

    India can only send an upper limit of people to each country before they start limiting the intake (as Kuwait is doing now). Best case scenario is that the government makes incremental changes over the next 20 years and the country becomes a more tolerable place to live gradually. Worst case scenario is things will continue limping along, economic performance will be below average because of political compulsions and bad policies, and the country may get stuck in a middle-income trap if it even gets that far in terms of GDP/capita.

  85. (Google translated) The leadership of the American city of Asheville, which has a population of 90,000 and is located in the American federal state of North Carolina, apologized to blacks for the role that city played during slavery and discrimination and announced that it would pay “historic compensation” to its African Americans.

    About 80 percent of Ashville’s citizens are white, but the decision of the city administration was – unanimous.

    It is not specified how much compensation will be paid to blacks.

    At the same time, Asheville announced that he would work on creating jobs for blacks.

    Recently, a passenger on a plane flying from Seattle to Chicago threatened to kill passengers who refused to admit that Christ was black.

  86. Siddharth said:
    “It’s no secret that Indian cities aren’t planned and every inch of space is gobbled by the builder mafia rather than creating public amenities.”

    The biggest tragedy to me is the car-centric obsession many Indian urban planners have. It’s the America syndrome rearing its ugly head. EVs are better than ICE vehicles, but ultimately even EVs clog up huge parts of a city, cutting it up in crisscross pattern with highways everywhere. It makes an organic growth of a city and a closer communal spirit impossible.

    Urbanisation is something you only do once every few centuries. You put down the skeleton and then you live with the consequences. London and various European cities look the way they do because of decisions 100+ years ago. You can only tinker at the edges once the general pattern has been set. In this sense, it sort of breaks my heart to see Indian cities like Noida or Gurugram become desolate carscapes.

    Janamejaya said:

    “Ofcourse, nativists in the rest of the world won’t welcome this. My point is that Indians should use any tools at their disposal to make it possible despite resistance.”

    One thing I will never understand is why so many Indians believe that sending your elite to other countries to benefit them is somehow in the national interest of India. There is not much resistance to Indian immigration that I can tell. Much of it is really about stopping H1B abuse, which is really a story of exploitative capitalism where Indian and Western firms conspire to exploit Indian labour by making it very hard to get a green card and constantly dangling the threat of deportation if they dare speak up.

    Ronen said:

    “India can only send an upper limit of people to each country before they start limiting the intake”

    India has something like 450 million people employed. It’s female labour force participation is just 26%. Bangladesh is at 50%. Vietnam is over 70%.

    If India aspired to be as equal as even Bangladesh – which it should, because women should not be extremely dependent on a man for their financial security – then it would need to create over a hundred million jobs in the coming decade.

    But it can’t be any jobs, it has to be non-agricultural jobs, because those provide productivity commensurate with higher wages.

    During India’s best decade (2003-2012), it managed to average 7.5 million non-agri jobs per year under the best conditions. For both men and women. This has fallen to 2.5 in the period after 2012 up to 2018. COVID-19 certainly didn’t improve things.

    To sum up, India needs a job miracle. But the central dilemma is that it cannot export its surplus labour.

    Someone mentioned Eastern Europe. Many of those countries dabbled in disastrous neoliberal policies in the 1990s which created 15+ years of massive unemployment.

    It “solved” that issue by EU membership and sending its surplus millions.
    This wasn’t a big deal since most those countries are tiny (Lithuania, Croatia, Slovakia etc). Only Poland was reasonably large, at 38 million, and it lost 3+ million in the span of 5 years.

    India has a population that is 37 times larger and its median age is also much lower than Poland’s was at the time of EU entry, so a greater share of its population would be ready/able to move.

    Today, India sends about 700K per year overseas if you are using a generous definition. If you used the Polish example and adjusted the 37X larger figure to 50X to account for the much younger population, you’re looking at 150 million people having to be sent abroad in any comparable scenario.
    To put it bluntly, even if India quadrupled the amount of people it sent abroad, it wouldn’t even get close to solve the issue.

    Remember, we’re looking at a moving target. India’s population is almost 1.4 billion today but will grow to 1.65 billion according to UN estimates.

    In short, emigration as a solution is a total fantasy.

    1. I think its a lost cause tbh. I also am not that optimistic about the economic future. That’s why I never understood the racial bragging or bragging about a slightly higher HDI than another region. Most of the subcontinent is still a shithole (were just bragging about degree) severely lagging European and Anglosphere countries and will remain that way.

    2. Migration remains a “margin phenomenon” – there is no time tested indicator to say who might be a potential migrant. People with well paid, cushy jobs decide to migrate while someone eking out a hand-to-mouth existence remains rooted to their land.

      Migration, in any numbers, creates multiple knock on effects. Look at Kerala – one would imagine that this state with the highest HDI in India (almost bordering a few EU states) would have the lowest number of potential migrants. But it has the highest!! All sorts of “migration aspiration” complexes have seeped into the state’s popular consciousness.

      I would actually say that it is the migration patterns that have enabled Kerala to reach such high HDI numbers. Therein lies a lesson for other states to learn and do something about it.

      1. “Migration remains a “margin phenomenon” – there is no time tested indicator to say who might be a potential migrant. People with well paid, cushy jobs decide to migrate while someone eking out a hand-to-mouth existence remains rooted to their land”

        Yup, I think you’re on to something. The more a state/country/society develops above a base level, the more the migration aspiration since they’re now made aware of what ‘can be’. Like you said, this would explain why Punjab and Kerala are the states with the highest out-migration. The poor folk from the gangetic plains are having to make do with migrating to greener pastures within the country, but still a step up. Ditto for a middle class, well earning techie who would see his/her future abroad as a natural progression up the hierarchy of needs.

        As another commenter pointed out, India seems to have missed out on the age of frontier exploration by not securing a lebensraum. But human migration is only natural, hence I feel that along with trying to provide the best opportunities for growth the government should also try to step out of the way of those wanting to migrate as much as possible. The OCI is a good scheme, it can go one step ahead with a true dual nationality scheme if it really wants to tap into the hugely successful diaspora even more (but I’m aware of the reasons why it historically never went down this route).

  87. I don’t know people’s political leanings but I am pretty disappointed in Modi’s supposed Hindutva takeover. While there have been some low-hanging fruit wins, even something as basic as UCC is still not implemented. And UCC isn’t even Hindutva strictly speaking, it’s really liberal in spirit.

    While I applaud the Modi administration making it harder for Christian missionary NGOs, there’s been almost no movement in reconverting lost Hindus back from Abrahamic religions. Modi is thus far more optics than substance on the key issues. He merely tempered secularism’s worst appeasements, and made it more honest, rather than change society.

    Perhaps a bit too lofty to expect more of him. But still somewhat disappointing.

  88. There was some Stockholm syndrome earlier in this thread.
    I found some more hilarious Stockholm syndrome. This supposed “Tajik” glorifying Timur.
    https://twitter.com/BiruniKhorasan/status/1281516269561434112

    I guess once you’ve been conquered, live in a the shittiest of shitholes with nothing relevant coming from your land since the 1200s, you start to take pride in the invaders that wiped your anestors out of much of Central Asia.

  89. RE: One interesting view of Covid19, US, Trump, Serbs, etc, by Israel Shamir.

    There is a link with a full text and few excerpts.

    https://www.unz.com/ishamir/belgrade-liberated/

    Belgrade Liberated!

    “…Until now, there were countries that avoided lockdown altogether (Japan, Sweden, Belarus), but there wasn’t a country where people demanded and then obtained their freedom. Serbia is the first one. This small (pop. 7 million) country in the Balkans has a long history of resistance – they fought the Turks for centuries; they resisted Nazi Germany longer than France; they had the strongest guerrilla movement outside of Belarus, and yes, they fought mighty NATO for quite a long time. The Germans bombed Belgrade in April 1941, followed not long afterwards by America (aided by the British of course). In 1944, on Easter Day, six hundred American bombers carpet-bombed Belgrade, destroying its palaces, theatres, railway stations, and hospitals. That was America’s Easter Bunny gift to the Serbs.

    In 1999 Bill Clinton bombed Belgrade again, for three months, killing a lot of Serbs and causing immense destruction. The Serbian president was seized and murdered in the court cells underneath The Hague. My American friends, if you are in the mood to apologise, you can “take a knee” for the Serbs, for the crimes more recent and more tangible than the 18th century horrors of your ancestors. The US chose to lob bombs at the Serbs for good reason: Serbs do not surrender easily. These strong-willed giants have guts, more than the rest of the Balkans put together. No doubt today many of the evil geniuses at Coronavirus HQ are regretting that Serbia wasn’t completely erased from the face of the earth, so that it would not have become such a troublesome example to a rather pliable and docile global populace…..”

    “…..In the US, a new wave of the alleged Covid pandemic is supposed to remove President Trump, after RussiaGate and the impeachment fiasco failed to do the job. They manufactured the new wave without ‘re-seeding’ the country (as Larry Romanoff suggested) by the simple expedient of newspaper reporting. “New Cases in the U.S. Soar Past 68,000, Shattering Record” – screamed The New York Times.”……

    “…..I would be despondent and broken, if not for the Belgrade Uprising. What Serbs can do, we all can aspire to. There is an urgent need for rebellion against Covid dictatorship, the need to revolt until we are free…..”

  90. Kerala having high outmigration is not strange. Michael Clemens among other researchers on international migration has long pointed out that migration *rises* as countries get richer. They are still too poor to be attractive to their aspirational classes but rich enough to provide some amount of income necessary for emigration.

    If India were to get to $4000 GDP per capita, it would see more emigration pressure, not less. It’s hard to say at what cut-off point it ends, but it seems that at $10,000 things start to slow down a bit, at the very least. But a big factor in that would be inequality. Countries with high inequality have a much poorer middle-class than they ought to have, given all the concentration at the top. That would provide an extra factor in pushing people out if they feel there is no hope fixing it domestically.

    1. Kerala is slightly different – a sea faring/mercantile community, stifled by the socialist policies for years. Either you move out or you perish. And once they found greener pastures in the middle east, every able bodied men yearned to move out creating ghost villages. You got thousands of Indian Children in the middle east, who actually don’t have any connection to India, but with out Arab citizenship it’s only a matter of time that a whole lot will have to move back to India. Not a pretty social scene.

      1. Jay, the idea that people from Kerala emigrated as a reaction to stifling socialist policies is common held. Something that makes me doubt that as a principle cause however, is that the entire west coast belt up through mangalore, udupi, goa, and ratnagiri , not to mention sri lanka were also part of this exodus. Theres a great deal of policy diversity in all those places. The thing they all have in common though is really high HDI relative to inland regions. Many of them intitially left to work on oil rigs, become drivers and so forth, but compared to other indians they make great clerical workers. Experience working in the gulf is great for upward mobility at home, in a way that bangalore and mumbai have yet to offer i feel.

    2. “If India were to get to $4000 GDP per capita, it would see more emigration pressure, not less. It’s hard to say at what cut-off point it ends, but it seems that at $10,000 things start to slow down a bit, at the very least.”

      Using the rule of 72 and taking an optimistic growth rate of 7.2% over the next 20 years for ease of calculation, India’s per capita should be around $4000 by 2030 and $10000 between 2040 and 2045. So that’s a window of 15ish years where the emigration rate would be higher. Although given the bad press migration has received over the past few years I not sure if all the emigrants would be welcome.

    1. I was contemplating about making a blog for technical subjects explained lucidly; another purpose is to build a simple site to host learning material for revision purposes. Any advice on this matter? What technology stack do you use, e.g., CMS to manage content? Would some type of wiki format be better for collaboration, and community engagement?

      Some Questions: What is the origin of the Phoenicians? What happened to them? Why are they not sea people? They were also expert sailors, right? Why do Jews mention them?

  91. Time to start a new Open Thread? 474 comments is a new record but it may be inhibiting new conversations.

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