Open Thread – 07/25/2020 – Brown Pundits

So How Asia Works is very discounted on Kindle in the USA. If you haven’t read it, I recommend it.

In light of the increased comment activity on this weblog, I ask commenters to shy away from too many stupid comments. If you think you may say something stupid, please be cautious, because I may just delete it. My role as a moderator is basically to periodically engage in some ‘natural selection’ and apply some pressure. This is not something that is up for debate.

There is no schedule for the podcasts, but another will be dropping within the next few hours, and more stuff is going to be recorded tomorrow, and I just recorded something today on foreign policy with Richard Hanania.

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GauravL
GauravL
3 years ago

@Razib –
What are the some of the Y haplogroups associated with AASI ? Basically are there any Y haplogroups of the native hunter gatherers from before IVC ?

tammy
tammy
3 years ago
Reply to  GauravL

Deep state dems are planning a takeover of America to overthrow the government for a new world order
Do this today ,.,.,.,,, ,Look at this video ASAP!!!

StraightGay
StraightGay
3 years ago
Reply to  GauravL

@RazibKhan, are modern-day Palestinians(both Christians and Muslims) ancestrally/genetically the same as Israeli jews? So does it mean that their ancestors were Jews & they are also the children of Israel?

StraightGay
StraightGay
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

“..H i think”

Isn’t H from IHG and not from AASI?

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago
Reply to  StraightGay

H is pretty old in South Asia and in all likelihood predates iranian HG contact by thousands of years.

StraightGay
StraightGay
3 years ago
Reply to  StraightGay

“H is pretty old in South Asia and in all likelihood predates iranian HG contact by thousands of years.”

If H is an aboriginal/AASI haplogroup then how can H also be an IranHG haplogroup?

StraightGay
StraightGay
3 years ago
Reply to  StraightGay

BTW, i previously thought that Dravidian language is from IHG. But if this is the case then why do Paniyas who are mostly AASI speak Dravidian?

So it may also mean that Dravidian language is from AASI. Something like: AASI people in the Indus spoke Dravidian Brahui even before IHG arrived. Then IHG genetically replaced them but the language was retained. Then Aryans came and further genetic replacement and cultural retention…lol

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago
Reply to  StraightGay

Iran did not say that it is an Iran HG haplogroup so you are asking the wrong person to reinforce that argument. I suspect that if H was not introduced with the peopleing of south Asia, then it would be from some Levant Aurignacian group since that can be a point of separation for H1 and H2.

GauravL
Editor
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

Unreferenced Paragraphs from Wikipedia read the following about H1a.
But anyone could’ve just made it up. Hence Asked

“H-L901/M2939 is believed to have split from HIJK 48,500 years before present.[6] Its probable site of introduction is South Asia, since it is highly concentrated there. It seems to represent the main Y-Chromosome haplogroup of the paleolithic inhabitants of the Indian Subcontinent.”

While Narasimhan paper found 2 H1 in swat around 1000BCE
While H2 is levantine according to “Genomic insights into the origin of farming in the ancient Near East”

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago
Reply to  GauravL

H1 and H2 split really long ago and there is pretty much no H2 today in the H1 zone and pretty much no H1 in the H2 zone aside from historic era migrations. I suspect that this is a late Levant Aurignacian split.

Dravidarya
Dravidarya
3 years ago

Good TEDx talk by J Sai Deepak

https://youtu.be/c9Jj5T_49TA

StraightGay
StraightGay
3 years ago
Reply to  Dravidarya

Dravidarya, can you please tell me about your ancestry percentage and ancestral background?
Since your name contains “Dravid” and “Arya”, i am guessing that you are a Dravid/South Indian person who is Arya(n)/steppe-shifted…may be non-black non-AASI-looking ANI-shifted upper caste

Ugra
Ugra
3 years ago
Reply to  StraightGay

In light of your question, I would like to state that the word “Dravidian” and its current usage today was primarily constructed by an Irish proselytizer in the 19th century with the express intent of propagation of christianity among the people of Tirunelveli in Tamilnadu.

The word “Dravida” itself is fully missing from any self-reference throughout two millennia of Tamil, Telugu or Kannada literature. Not a single king or chieftain from South India proclaimed themselves as of Dravidian stock. On the contrary, the greatest kings of South India called themselves with such titles as “Arya-Shironmani”and “Aryaputra”. There was never any supposed kinship, communal feelings or ownership among South Indians on any kind of “Dravidian” basis.

But the word “Dravida” is found for the first time in the Mahabharata to refer to the southern territories. It is almost on the lines of the word “Hindu” – never invented by Indians themselves but now in usage.

Today the word carries heavy baggage of a particular strand of political ideology in Tamilnadu that is separatist, anti-Hindu polemicist and staunchly LTTE supporting. Because of these reasons, many Tamilians disassociate from this word and stress on a Tamil identity which is much more authentic and rooted. Apart from a few politicaI leaning characters, I have never even heard any person from other states call themselves Dravidian.

girmit
girmit
3 years ago
Reply to  Ugra

Ugra, those proselytisers often had an intellectual temper and finer critical faculties than the best native minds for many generations thereafter. The work they and other orientalist scholars undertook was invaluable. Our own native thinkers doubled down on a general ignorance of the histories of adjacent asia, the mediterranean world, and western europe, leaving them unequipped to say anything remotely interesting.

Ugra
Ugra
3 years ago
Reply to  girmit

Well, the missionaries were only standing on the shoulders of Renaissance giants. Their critical “eye” was limited to pigeon-holing and some of the earliest inspiration of Macaulay’s invective against natives.

The Irish guy, Caldwell, I am talking about believed in creationism and wrote a 300 page volume of how it is not possible for earth to be older than 6000 years and Hindu numbers of the Yugas and the Universe were not possible. So much for “intellectual temper”

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  girmit

” Our own native thinkers doubled down on a general ignorance of the histories of adjacent asia, the mediterranean world, and western europe, leaving them unequipped to say anything remotely interesting.”

I guess it says more abt the native thinkers of that region than the proselytizers. During the same time period, the same folks propagated AIT in N-India as well. Apart from commies, who one would expect to support this theories, there was no societal acceptance of this theories, unlike the Dravidian theory acceptance in the south.

girmit
girmit
3 years ago
Reply to  girmit

Standing on the shoulders of giants requires an intimacy with their ideas. I don’t find caldwell an endearing character, but his workmanlike competence produced valuable outputs that compounded in value over generations. The foundation he laid for classifying dravidian languages as of independent origin is still sound. That this is uncomfortable to some and creates a point of distinction that may or may not be politically exploited is a separate matter.

girmit
girmit
3 years ago
Reply to  girmit

Saurav, I’m not sure if we are of a similar age or not, but up until the 90’s it was absolutely common for people who hadn’t the slightest affiliation with any leftism to boast about exogenous aryan origins. Imagine seeing the jatt dna pissing contest unfolding IRL, and for the benefit of a white audience. Some rajput of khatri guy basically trying to convince a room full of people that he’s basically white, and then they look at me for confirmation and to see if i’m also self-identified that way. In fact, those of us who were “dravidian” were told absolutely nothing about it at home, it was a non-topic. But my friends and their parents would regularly reference it in drawing room banter. If anything, these people leaned hindutva. Its only quite recently that this became a politically inconvenient issue.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  girmit

I see the drawing room discussion of aryan origins similar to same discussion of being more upper caste supremacy talk. In my house hold even within OBC;s there is frequent discussion on how which OBC caste is actually upper and better, while how some OBCs groups are really dalits and “we don’t marry with them”.

What i meant was if N-India politics has ever revolved around Aryans because literally everyone thinks all N-Indians were Aryans. And they were Hindus. And there is no dichotomy b/w any of them. Its only in places where the “Hindu quotient” of India is weak, only there politics regarding communism, Dravidian-ism arose.

Prats
Prats
3 years ago
Reply to  Ugra

“Saurav, I’m not sure if we are of a similar age or not, but up until the 90’s it was absolutely common for people who hadn’t the slightest affiliation with any leftism to boast about exogenous aryan origins.”


I believe I am much younger than you but this was my experience through 2000s as well.

I had uncles and grand-uncles who’d talk about Aryan invasion and I grew up assuming it was fact. None of them are remotely leftist.

I only learnt of OIT much later in college and only got to know that there are people who are take it very seriously through BP.

Dravidarya
Dravidarya
3 years ago
Reply to  StraightGay

Oh man, your outlook of history and ethnography is so 20th/21st century! Pathetic but it is the reality as the world is dominated by the West! You’re a product of 2-3 centuries of brainwashing by Marxists/Muslims(middle easterners)/Christians(european) of Dharmic people’s. Btw, coming to your question, I have light skinned and light brown eye Coloured heritage on maternal grandmother side and paternal grandmother side( both are from feudal background) however both the paternal sides( mother’s and father’s) are dark, tall, beak nosed but they’re more like commoner background. Most of my relatives and blood relations are located in the Northern Telangana and Southern Maharashtra right smack in the Asmaka region, one of the 16 Mahajanapadas of the Ancient India.

Dravidarya
Dravidarya
3 years ago
Reply to  Dravidarya

My previous reply was supposed to be for “StraightGuy” . Btw, in our region we use the word Arya/Ayya to address someone with respect. Ayya is also one of the words for father. Whenever we write letter we start with Arya or Ayya like Sir in English. If you know the concept of Prakruthi/Vikruthi then Arya is Prakruthi and Ayya is vikruthi. Vikruthi is usually corrupt/colloquial form of literary / Sanskrit words.

StraightGay
StraightGay
3 years ago
Reply to  Dravidarya

OK. So you are most prolly ANI shifted Telegu non-Brahmin upper caste…

@RazibKhan, how much steppe,IHG and AASI ancestry do these people have? And in which website(except BrownPundits) can i find these ancestry percentages?

Dravidarya
Dravidarya
3 years ago
Reply to  StraightGay

I think steppe ancestry is probably negligible and most probably we have IHG as some upper non-brahmin castes in Southern India have Indus related and AASI ancestry.

Akhilesh
Akhilesh
3 years ago
Reply to  Dravidarya

@Dravidarya
Do you know your harappa world results?

Ronen
Ronen
3 years ago

An interesting browncast possibility would be with the journalist Kunwar Khuldune Shahid who currently writes for the Diplomat. He occasionally mentions stuff about atheists living in Pak, Razib might be able to connect with him on that topic.

Relevant article from a long time back: https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2013/03/01/elephant-in-the-room/

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Ronen

Oh boy, another mention of Pakistan! Can’t a week go by without someone bringing up Pakistan and/or Islam? What would you all do without these topics to vent about?

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

As for the “article” you shared, it is nothing but a screed against Islam, Qauid-e-Azam and Allama Iqbal. “Malsi” is obviously Islam. This is an anti-Pakistan piece of trash, hence the obvious appeal to Hindutvadis.

StraightGay
StraightGay
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

Kabir, have you been living in USA since your childhood?Being outgrouped,being bullied too much,alcoholism etc can damage mental health. May be these things made you a very sensitive and reactive person.
Dont take me wrong.

Also, are you South/East European-passing?

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  StraightGay

I did grow up in the US yes.

I don’t think I’m particularly “sensitive or reactive”. I’m simply noticing the pattern on this forum of constantly bringing up Pakistan and/or Islam. It’s getting a bit ridiculous.

As for the referenced article, it’s not even good satire. Spelling things backwards (“Malsi” for “Islam”) is not particularly clever.

StraightGay
StraightGay
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

A lot of Americans online seem to have very serious mental health issues. USA is prolly a hell disguised as heaven. People are prosperous but they dont have peace of mind…but ok leave that

You most probably have the white skin but can you pass for South/East European?

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

The article is not about atheists living in a Muslim country. It’s not about anything at all just a ham-handed attempt to blame Islam (or “Malsi”) for all of Pakistan’s problems. A really pathetic attempt at satire. The comments are interesting. Hindutvadis lauding him and Islamists declaring him “wajib-ul-qatal”.

Seriously, what would happen if for one week no one was allowed to mention either Pakistan or Islam here? Would the conversation entirely dry up?

Prats
Prats
3 years ago
Reply to  Ronen

+1 to the suggestion

Have been following the guy for years now. I think Omar has mentioned him a few times in very old posts.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Prats

Kunwar Khuldune Shahid has labeled Qaid-e-Azam himself an “Islamist”– a characterization that makes no sense given that the Qaid was known as the “Ambassador of Hindu-Muslim Unity”. The Qaid was a constitutional secularist all his life and the movement for Pakistan was based on safeguarding the rights of the Muslim minority of British India and not on “Islamism”.

Someone who characterizes the Qaid thus is simply anti-Pakistan. No wonder he appeals to the right leaning Hindus on BP. This is the kind of Pakistani you all like, not those of us who believe that the Muslims of British India had the right to create a sovereign nation for ourselves, in the absence of compromise with INC.

https://thediplomat.com/2020/07/pakistans-hinduphobia/

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

If one goes through his Twitter, one can see that the man hates Pakistan. He never has one good word to say about it. God only knows why he still lives in the country.

You guys have accused me of liking Arundhati Roy because she is “anti-India”. Ms. Roy is at least a Booker award winning novelist. This guy isn’t even that. Just a self-flagellating and anti-Islam Pakistani.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

“Seriously, what would happen if for one week no one was allowed to mention either Pakistan or Islam here? Would the conversation entirely dry up?”

You forgot the other unspeakable topic of discussion, one that has been even more controversial. It has caused threads to be closed.

https://en.uncyclopedia.co/wiki/Jat_people

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

Yes, there is always the topic of which ethnicity is more White passing. Islam, Pakistan and white passing ethnicities. That’s basically what the audience here wants.

Prats
Prats
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

Kabir, Shahid has criticised Hindutva in the past as well.

Getting him on the podcast doesn’t mean people here are condoning his views. It is just to understand where he’s coming from.

The whole point of having a forum like this is so that one can hear new perspectives and broaden their weltanshauung.

“You guys have accused me of liking Arundhati Roy because she is “anti-India”.”

I do not agree with her opinions. But I would still be curious to listen to her point of view explored deeply the way Razib, Mukunda etc do. It’s much better than fawning fangirl interviews or the confrontational stuff one sees on Times Now.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Prats

Oh please. I’ll believe that “broadening our views” stuff when there is a podcast with someone who is pro-Pakistan and pro-Islam. Not going to happen.

The only kind of Pakistani right-wing Hindus like is one who basically hates his own nation. Shahid calls the Qaid an “Islamist”, which is ridiculous. When you hate the founding father, you’re pretty close to hating the entire concept of Pakistan.

Prats
Prats
3 years ago
Reply to  Prats

“I’ll believe that “broadening our views” stuff when there is a podcast with someone who is pro-Pakistan and pro-Islam. ”

No one is stopping you from suggesting such a person.

VijayVan
VijayVan
3 years ago
Reply to  Prats

\The only kind of Pakistani right-wing Hindus like is one who basically hates his own nation. Shahid calls the Qaid an “Islamist”, which is ridiculous. When you hate the founding father, you’re pretty close to hating the entire concept of Pakistan.\
Please come out of labels like pro- or anti- Pakistan/Islam/India , Right Wing/Left Wing etc
Talking of hating founding father , Jinnah was only Quaid , not ‘father’ , while Mahatma Gandhi was called Father of the Nation (India) and jolly well hated by many Indians . There are a whole bunch of people. not just some Hindutvavadis, who hate M.K.Gandhi , like Dalits, Ambedkaraites, leftists, maoists, Nobody calls them anti-Indian.
I went thro’ the Twitter of of the man under question Shahid, and found him sensible and outspoken and has no truck with the politicized military regime . Nothing anti-Pakistani about him . Pakistan should have space for Paknationalists who don’t toe the Pakistani army narratives and keep exposing it. He is one such, very rare and endangered species. Most other non Army voices have been snuffed out

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  Prats

Kabir

Who would be a good guest on Browncast, someone whose views on Pakistan would enrich our knowledge.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Prats

Don’t tell me to “come out of labels”. I’ll use them when they make sense.

The Qaid was Pakistan’s founding father. Without him, there would have been no Pakistan. Hating the Qaid is equivalent to hating George Washington, Thomas Jefferson etc.

As for “anti-India”, these days anyone who opposes any policy of Hindu Hriday Samrat is called an “anti-national”. That is the reality in your country.

I have no problem with Shahid being against the Army or against Imran Khan or whatever. Being against a particular government is fine. But calling the Qaid an “Islamist” is unforgivable.

As for guests on Browncast, out of 220 million people you can find many Pakistanis who neither hate their country nor their religion. Dr. Ayesha Jalal would a good example for the absolute canonical views on the Qaid and the Pakistan movement.

timpaas
timpaas
3 years ago

Is this article correct?
“””
Why are western men marrying Asian women?
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/mind-the-gap/why-are-western-men-marrying-asian-women/
“””

Strange arguments; if true, weird stuff is happening in the US and Europe. Does Eastern Europe also have the same problem, or the whole article is bunkum? Very hard to believe: After all, I don’t doubt ToI’s capacity for nonsense and hyperbole.

Dravidarya
Dravidarya
3 years ago
Reply to  timpaas

I am all in support of my white male friends finding a brown girl! You go boy!! Break the barriers. But the problem will be from indian girl’s side as “many families in india hide their family pride in their girl’s private parts”! Girl should always get married to a guy from same caste, skin color, status etc where as a boy can even marry a buffalo if he can have babies with it!

Tawangnese
Tawangnese
3 years ago
Reply to  Dravidarya

“can even marry a buffalo if he can have babies with it!”

Not true. There is still much resistance from many communities.

https://youtu.be/9aKpfhwGffU

https://youtu.be/jEoYcglpAZA

Ugra
Ugra
3 years ago
Reply to  timpaas

Its true, I know 3 ex-colleagues who have Asian wives (Vietnamese, Chinese). A few of my friends also know Indian women married to European men. Though, I don’t know if this is part of any broad trend.

Prats
Prats
3 years ago
Reply to  timpaas

Interesting co-incidence.
My parents just told me an old family friend’s daughter married a gora guy this week. Second such news in their social circle in the last month or so.

In this case, the guy spent 4 months in India with the family (before the lockdown).

VijayVan
VijayVan
3 years ago

In the newspapers we hear terms like mail-order Russian brides, Ukrainian brides, Thai/Filipino brides, etc. So, it looks like white people have no qualms against inter racial marriage , charges of racism by woke crowd notwithstanding.

Conversely , the rush for illegal migration from Afghanistan, Pakistan or ME by young men can be due to expected free sexual selection in the west which is denied to them in their home countries

Ali Choudhury
Ali Choudhury
3 years ago
Reply to  VijayVan

They can find prostitutes easily enough, just like drugs and alcohol. They migrate for work and supposed riches, not sex.

principia
principia
3 years ago
Reply to  Ali Choudhury

both

StraightGay
StraightGay
3 years ago
Reply to  VijayVan

Not really. Most white people for some reason is opposed to non-white immigration. But they actually need immigrants to run their country.
For example,
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20200723163216AAv76Kd

Most righties are not fully right-wing and most lefties are not fully left-wing. And a lot of people are very racist actually.

answers.yahoo.com can be a good place for psycho-analysis. See the most upvoted opinions by filtering. But many offensive answers and questions often get removed quickly which can lead to a false conclusion.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago

https://www.outlookindia.com/website/story/opinion-political-collapse-of-bengals-upper-caste-bhadralok-hegemony-and-bjps-prize/357287

Political Collapse Of Bengal’s Upper Caste ‘Bhadralok’ Hegemony And BJP’s Prize

“This caste divide in Bengali society is responsible for the rise of the BJP in the state. Since 2012, the RSS has made great inroads by community outreach initiatives in the clusters where Dalits and other marginalised groups are concentrated.”

A good article on Upper class/caste left VS subaltern Hindutva.

principia
principia
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

The inroads that the BJP has done with castes that haven’t traditionally voted for them over the last decade is the most underestimated political story in India IMHO. You see this in UP as well, where the demise of regional parties is in large part due to this.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

Perhaps, i see “Hindu quotient” in a different way as to how much “Hindu-ness” pervades the politics . Is Pakistan more “Islamic” than Bangladesh, i would say, Yes. Is Turkey more Islamic than it was b4, Yes. That has less to do with personal beliefs, more to do with public religiosity like festivals etc.

In that sense there is absolutely nothing in N-India where “Hindu-ness” does not permeate. Language, culture, ethnicity, so much so that the default mode of N-India is Hindu. Dalit-ism, Woke-ism, Communism, Regionalism, Language politics has less space to operate and they are in a sense beholden 2 religion. So much so that even caste politics which is permissive across whole of India, can be brought to heel by “Hindu-ness” . Ambedkar could convert to Buddhism in the 50s, but Mayawati still can’t/won’t.

In that vector, S-India has stuff divorced of religion which can operate separately. In S-India, religion is one of the factor, in N-India religion is the factor, where other stuff revolve around.

Prats
Prats
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

“Ambedkar could convert to Buddhism in the 50s, but Mayawati still can’t/won’t.”

Mayawati plans on converting after becoming the PM since that’d have more impact.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  Prats

Nothing like that gonna happen, since politics has changed. The most astute dalit observer has this to say abt Indian politics

https://www.news18.com/news/opinion/opinion-bjp-rss-have-compelled-mayawati-to-do-religious-identity-politics-1556809.html

BJP-RSS Have Compelled Mayawati To Do ‘Religious-Identity’ Politics

And eventually

https://www.firstpost.com/politics/bewildering-turn-of-events-whats-behind-mayawatis-refusal-to-embrace-buddhism-2734192.html

“If she embraces Buddhism, she loses non-Dalit Hindu votes — particularly those belonging to Brahmins.

And if she doesn’t, she would sadly find herself drifting away from the larger than life Dalit icon – Babasaheb Bhim Rao Ambedkar.

But a practical politician that she has developed into over the years, Mayawati is aware of the three fundamental factors in politics of votes: First, more than 90 percent of Dalits in Uttar Pradesh are willfully continuing as Hindus even in face of oppression at the hands of upper castes and other backward communities. Second, she might lose her Dalit identity once she becomes a Buddhist. And third, ironically enough, the Dalits owe their existence to Manuwad and Vedic Hinduism. No Manuwad, no Daliticism. Yes, as simple as that.”

H.M. Brough
H.M. Brough
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Hmm. The BJP strongholds in West India are also overwhelmingly Hindu. I don’t know as much about their political history as I do about my home state though.

sbarrkum
3 years ago

So far China has not supported separatism in the North and East. Cant be said of India which supported and trained terrorists like the LTTE.

Note: This report is from an Indian, Jayant Bhandari

In Delhi, people of the northeastern part of India, who have mongoloid features, are derogatorily called “chinky.”

It is not unusual for men in Delhi to stop their cars to proposition a random girl from the northeast for a sexual encounter, assuming her to be “loose.”

Irrationality, superstitions and bigotry have been fertile ground in these days of Covid-19. People from the northeast have faced massive problems based on the assumption that they are carriers of the virus. They have been refused services at shops and have been thrown out by landlords.

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/india-china-border-issue

Tawangnese
Tawangnese
3 years ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

My Uncle was doing business in Patna.
“Which part of China do you come from chinky?”
Uncle “Tawang!”
“Do they have Chicken Manchurian in Taiwan?”
Uncle ???

VijayVan
VijayVan
3 years ago
Reply to  Tawangnese

Rudeness combined with immense ignorance, don’t know laugh or cry.

VijayVan
VijayVan
3 years ago
Reply to  Tawangnese

I was watching a YouTube clip on Indian singing talent show few years old. On the 3 judges was a famous Bollywood actor, a Khan. One girl from Darjeeling sang ‘mera naam chin chin chu’. At the end Khan praised the girl and said you also look like Chinese . I thought that was incredibly rude and racist fro a top actor judging at a top TV show
Casual racism and rudeness is rife in India esp north

Prats
Prats
3 years ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

“Note: This report is from an Indian, Jayant Bhandari”

That guy is an Ayn Rand worshipping Canadian who has significant financial interests in China. Take his geopolitical analysis with a pinch of salt.

You can look through his Twitter. Feels like one of those ‘libertarians’ who don’t mind bending backwards when it comes to China.

I don’t necessarily disagree with his assessment of Indian society, though.

sbarrkum
3 years ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

Prats, Twang

This was an reply on FB by an upper class Sindhi, a little older than I. Lived in SL and traveled extensively.

When this class of Indians are not even circumspect, what hope the average.

The problem with people in Askam and other N.E. States of India is that they do not want to develop. They are unable to capitalise on their natural resources. They want help from Delhi all the time. They thrive on drug smuggling and for years supported insurgency . They bite the hand that feeds them.
The word Chinky was used by the British and it is just a hangover. In the 60s Hong Kong newspapers use to use the word often. As far as women are concerned, they come to the cities to sell their bodies. This is because of the economic conditions. What I cannot understand is why do they not develop their own states. These states contribute nothing and want the rest of India to subsidise them. Nepal wants to have restrained relationship with India but wants to send their people to work here.
While I admit China is economically stronger, we are resisting their aggression. We have not sold our lands or borrowed from them unlike Lanka and Philippines.
You should try and solve the problems your country is facing. I doubt you have a solution to our problems. We have made mistakes but we are not bankrupt.

you seem to have some sort of complex against Hindus. Maybe that is your style of racism. I don’t think you have any idea of the economic burden these states have on the rest of India. They paid us back with armed insurgency. The naxalite movement was financed by the Chinese. The murders of many businessmen in the 80s and 90s caused investors to back out. The Christians and Animists are too insignificant for Hindus to worry about them. They do not contribute anything worthwhile. The Shillong choir is just one of the many talents that you can find in India – even among Hindus. By the way, the choir use to be sponsored by the Apeejay group owned by Hindus

Sbarr Kum: So maybe a separate state as they are not welcome in India ?

– No. It is our land our resources. If the Assamese don’t like it, they can to take a hike. They are lucky we have supported for over 70 years. They are losing their jobs to the Bangladeshis because of their stupidity. They have got themselves deliberately classified as Schedule and backward caste in order to get government grants.

A friend posted this link
https://www.google.com/search?q=shillong%20chamber%20choir%20live

My comment: Many NE Indians are Christians or Animists. Rubs the Hindoos the wrong way.

Sumit
Sumit
3 years ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

Do “Hindoos” have a problem with Animists? (Genuine question)

I would have thought ideologically Hindutva would consider them to be Hindus. And consider Christians to be outsiders.

Orthodox Hindus would just consider both animists and Christians to be different Jatis. That have different cultural, social, religious practices.

Prats
Prats
3 years ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

“My comment: Many NE Indians are Christians or Animists. Rubs the Hindoos the wrong way.”

Most Indians on the streets think North Easterners are Buddhists. And most NE folks are not very outwardly religion anyway. Religion is not much of an issue. The main reasons for discrimination are:

1. Looks – NE folks have only recently started migrating out in large numbers. So the familiarity is less. This will go away with time.
Indian society hasn’t developed a sense of political correctness the way west has so a lot of people say names out loud bluntly.

2. Eating habits – they are meat eaters and are generally assumed to consume unfamiliar meats like dogs etc. So vegetarians act squeamish with them.

3. Class difference – A large number NE folks in larger cities work in the hospitality industry as waiters and servers. So white collar mainlanders treat them with disdain. I think NE folks with their work ethics have a high chance of moving up the value chain in a few generations. So this might go away as well.

4. Gender roles – Women in NE are generally more free economically and sexually. This is unfamiliar to most mainlanders. Btw this is true of Bengali women as well and they are also often seen as more ‘available’.

APthk
3 years ago

Dear Razib,

I’d greatly appreciate it if you could offer your insight into these queries. I know you are an expert in this discipline, and would be privileged if you could offer your input.

1) Is it fair to say that AASI, as we call it now, is an East Eurasian or more specifically, a South East Asian component? In other words AASI ancestry is essentially equivalent to having South East Asian ancestry, that is, it is a part of the larger sphere of East Eursian ancestry in the world?

2) I’ve read in a paper that the early line of thought indicating that AASI was Onge or Andamanese-related was incorrect, and that it is actually more closely related to East and South East Asians, as the Indigenous South Asian Hunter-gatherers were not Onge and only had some distant relation to a common ancestor shared with the Onge. So AASI has nothing to do with Australoids/Onge/Andamanese people?

3) Related to the above, the paper said that the Gujaratis lacked any Onge-related admixture when modeled, indicating that Onge was not a proxy for AASI. So this further proves that AASI is a form of SE Asian ancestry or East Eurasian ancestry?

4) Finally, just like Europeans are made up of three divergent “tribes” in varying proportions i.e the ANE, WHG and EEF, what groups are South Asians made of, and do these groups/tribes making up South Asians overlap with Europeans in meaningful way?

Greatly appreciate your thoughts. Thanks a bunch.

Senju
Senju
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

If I recall correctly, in one of your older blog posts you mention that David Reich said that the genetic difference between EEF and WHG was comparable to that between modern Europeans and Chinese.

Considering that West Eurasians and East Eurasians split ~40-50k years ago, and
WHG and EEF seem to be much more recently related, how is that be possible? Am I misunderstanding something?

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

WHG makes 2 clines, one towards ANE and one towards Goyet Aurignacian. Pure WHGs are on neither of these clines AFAIK. Villabruna is a little bit on the WHG to ANE cline due to some ANE ancestry, while El Miron and Magdalenians are on the Goyet cline due to Aurignacian ancestry.

By pure WHGs I am referring to the central Italian and Sicilian ones.

APthk
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

Thanks so much. Greatly appreciate your insights. I have a bunch of more queries, and I hope to hear from you if you have any time to spare in the future — would love to continue learning from a doyen of the field like yourself. Will keep in touch.

I will be donating to your Patreon as well.

Bhimrao
Bhimrao
3 years ago

Some of the guys here might enjoy this song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LD30ChPsSs
For ABCDs who have not spent a lot of time in motherland it has somewhat accurate depiction of what the ‘lived-experience’ is for somewhat well to do people (on vacation) in India. No over the top poverty/forced-realism and no imaginary Bollywood locales. I especially liked the few shots of my lovely Kolkata.

For everyone else the music is good and subtitles are available. @Razib some non Bollywood Indian film music for you.

The movie was sweet.

Justanotherlurker
Justanotherlurker
3 years ago

Question for the wise ones here:
I haven’t read the Geeta. Wasn’t exposed to it through religion (for obvious reasons) and only know of a couple famous shlokas ( karmanye ….). From what I have heard, the first half of the book is quite.philosophical and interesting, while the second half is all about Krishna and how he asserts his divinity and avers that his “sharan” should be the ultimate goal for everyone and the only path to moksha.
Now I have a bit of an allergy to metaphysics, and also especially to divine claims (especially self centered and glorifying ones). Given this context would you recommend the Geeta? And what is the best translation for someone not religiously inclined to the message?

Violet
Violet
3 years ago

If you are allergic to metaphysics then Geeta may not be for you just like some of the other ancient philosophies.

When Krishna goes on his divinity, some tend to interpret it to mean as “the best” and important things to pay attention to on Earth. This is the part where he goes, “I am time, the destroyer of the worlds”.

I am not sure of English translations but my first exposure was in Telugu that Ghantasala sang (and my grandma used to sing a more layman version). If anyone is aware of the Telugu version and knows of an equally simple and beautiful English version, I would like to know too.

Sumit
Sumit
3 years ago

I thought Eknath Easwaran’s translation and commentary was good but I like yoga and spiritual stuff.

If you are looking for completely secular / modern interpretations of Dharmic philosophy.

https://meaningness.com/

Is really good but it’s Madhyamaka Buddhist philosophy stripped of religion for the modern world. So it’s a different focus, but very relevant for dealing with “woke” ideology without modernist objectification.

Haven’t come across a similar treatment for the Gita, but it’s sort of tricky, I think a lot the value of the Gita is the fact that it is part of this large epic story that draws the reader in. Rather than a condensed philosophical treatise.

justanotherlurker
justanotherlurker
3 years ago
Reply to  Sumit

Thank you, Violet and Sumit.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago

https://www.firstpost.com/art-and-culture/white-mughals-whitewashing-whitesplaining-the-neo-colonial-manipulation-of-our-history-by-its-self-appointed-gatekeepers-8630481.html

“There are many reasons for this deliberate distortion and disposal of inconvenient historical facts. Firstly, white colonisers and their native compradors have a well-documented fascination with the Mughals. This is because it helps create a narrative to justify foreign rule and alien value systems – that the history of India is the history of successive invaders “civilising” the meek natives who are captives of evil, backward paganism, and who had no military, naval, or cultural achievements of their own. This explains why it was a common European fantasy during colonial times that they were rescuing Indian women from evil, patriarchal native traditions (as illustrated in Around the World in 80 Days), while hiding how British, Portuguese, and Dutch were complicit in slavery and sex trafficking, much like the Mughals they replaced and admired. The protection of this treasured narrative is also why today, we learn the long-discredited Aryan Invasion Theory in schools, but not about Rajendra Cholan and his cultural impact on our civilisational brethren in Champa, Kambuj, Ayutthaya, and Majapahit. Nor the long reign of the Ahom dynasty, the glories of Vijayanagara, the struggle for Hindavi Swarajya. Even Raja Hemchandra Vikramaditya is reduced to “Hemu”, the grocer’s son. Such civilisational awareness is seen as dangerous revivalism, which may result in self-respect among former colonial populations, which is unacceptable to the colonial master even today.”

GauravL
GauravL
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Cholas have been given the worst deal in Central books I guess.

And tragically despite the so called Marxist consensus – what ancient and medieval Indians did on day to day basis – farming , hunting other professions and eating habits an other habits are woefully underrepresented.
Pros n Cons of medieval Zamindars/Vassals also not something I remember.

thewarlock
thewarlock
3 years ago
Reply to  GauravL

I think of chole whenever someone says cholas. Makes me hungry

Harry Jecs
Harry Jecs
3 years ago
Reply to  GauravL

The Time Traveller’s Guide to Medieval England is one of my favorite books. Wish there was something like that for India.

timepaas
timepaas
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

I too agree with all your points. However, genetics is also now starting to contradict AMT theory; so, don’t lose hope and hold tight. Even disregarding all the acrimonious history, Indians need to start cultivating a culture of excellence and meritocracy — just like Chinese.

There is a saying: Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift. That is why it is called the “present”.

Milan Todorovic
Milan Todorovic
3 years ago
Reply to  timepaas

“…genetics is also now starting to contradict AMT theory…”

%%%%%%%%%%%%

I am hungry of the knowledge and would like to hear about some contradictions. One contradiction can actually crash the whole ‘theory’. I think rather that one positive evidence (e.g. in genetics) can confirm AMT and one negative evidence can crash OIT. I am neither AMT nor OIT (it is a play for you, local guys) but I have learnt more about this from one comment (Prat?) – I’ve heard about Aryan invasions from my grandfather and my dad and it was a fact for me, about OIT I have heard on BP.

principia
principia
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

the long-discredited Aryan Invasion Theory

Anyone who utters this phrase damages their own credibility.

Such civilisational awareness is seen as dangerous revivalism, which may result in self-respect among former colonial populations, which is unacceptable to the colonial master even today.”

Most of this “colonisation” is actually self-colonisation by Indians, and by Indians I really mean upper-class English speaking Westernised Indians. So a tiny sliver of the population.

Dravidarya
Dravidarya
3 years ago

I made chicken biryani yesterday guys and it turned out amazing. InshaGanesha, thank the Persianized/Islamicized Turko-Mongol barbarians that have invaded India or else I would have gone hungry yesterday without the biryani!

AnAn
3 years ago

https://www.brownpundits.com/2020/07/05/browncast-episode-109-abhinav-prakash-indian-culture-society-and-politics/

I am listening to this now. Abhinav is very good. I really like him and mostly agree with him.

AnAn
3 years ago
Reply to  AnAn

One response to Abhinav. CAA and NRC were endorsed by many senior Indian muslim leaders, including the head of the Chisti order–largest sufi order in the world.

AnAn
3 years ago
Reply to  AnAn

Just finished listening to Abhinav. Very, very nice. Is he coming back? I would ask him about:

1) The Gorakhnath Sampradaaaya (of which he is chief Mahant–the equivalent of Pope) . . . this has for over a thousand years (maby more than 1.5 thousand years?) been one of the greatest and most respected Sampradaayas in the East. Abhinav described his Jati. But when he joined the Sampradaaya didn’t he become a Brahmin? And when he took Sanyaasa . . . didn’t he transcend all the Varnas . . . becoming Avarna?
2) Many friends see Yogi Adityanath as the next PM of India after Modiji. What does Abhinav think?
3) His thoughts about the tens of thousands of Sufis who are part of the Goraknath Sampradaaya and follow Yogi Adityanaath
3) Kabir and other Dargahs in UP
4) Twelvers (generally allied with Yogi Adityanath)
5) Sixers (even more allied with Yogi Adityanath) (As far as I know . . . the Bohra subset of Sixers are not in UP in big numbers . . . is this accurate)
6) Don’t the Sixers and Twelvers publicly talk about the 3,000 or more temples converted into mosques? Don’t they apologize for it? Didn’t the Shia petition the Supreme Court to give them the Ayodhya Mosque so that they could on their own dime build a temple for the Hindus on the property?

Full disclosure I have a soft spot for the Sufi and Shia. 🙂

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago

https://www.thewhitereview.org/feature/meena-kandasamy/

As Tamils in India, we were furious at how the Indian intervention had turned out. Our anger turned inwards; it brought us to the brutal realisation that the Tamils were not only fighting the Sinhala state, but another enemy in disguise: India.

Dravidarya
Dravidarya
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

I had a Sinhalese friend in my NIT-Calicut undergrad days, he said that the civil war was first started by the Sinhalese by attacking the Tamils in Colombo.

sbarrkum
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

DravidaArya
This everyday engagement mirrored the wider mood. India set up secret military camps to provide arms training to the Tamil guerrilla groups, ostensibly to protect the Tamils, but primarily to ensure its own supremacy as a regional player.

The civil war started with India training LTTE and other militants.

Brown
Brown
3 years ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

was prabhakaran a christian at his death?

Ugra
Ugra
3 years ago
Reply to  Brown

His death occurred in unverified circumstances. But looking at all available Srilankan Tamil press sources, especially DBS Jeyaraj, it indeed appears that a lot of the top leadership was Christian. There is no authentic account of the inner circle.

Brown
Brown
3 years ago
Reply to  Ugra

the bishop of jafna used to give ‘moral’ support to the boys. i had read some where that prabhakaran managed to get the ltte away from the ” upper/middle class and castes’. i am not sure as to how many ‘upper caste’ cadre were in the fiting force of ltte.

Ugra
Ugra
3 years ago
Reply to  Ugra

@Brown – The former High Commissioner to Lanka, JN Dixit, is on record stating that Prabhakaran is a true follower of the Gita. He killed many, many fellow Tamils to pursue his cause single-mindedly. DBS Jeyaraj also stated that among his many motivations, are Chola kings (Karikalan) and Bhagat Singh. Its very probable that he tolerated and perhaps even allowed this perception to build. For one, it must have fetched him brownie points with the Norwegians.

sbarrkum
3 years ago
Reply to  Brown

Brown and Ugra
But looking at all available Srilankan Tamil press sources, especially DBS Jeyaraj, it indeed appears that a lot of the top leadership was Christian. There is no authentic account of the inner circle.

Prabakarans parents were Hindus
from Wiki Thiruvenkadam Velupillai was the District land Officer in the Ceylon Government. He came from an influential and wealthy family who owned and managed the major Hindu temples in Valvettithurai

However, Prabakarans son was named Charles Antony and their crack brigade was named Charles Antony in memory of Seelan, who was a Catholic.

I would guess, Prabhakaran did not care about or believe in religion.

The top leadership was mainly Hindu, and some Catholics. As far as I know, not a single Protestant Christian. Thats because the Karaiyar Fishing community (historically mercenaries) are mixed Hindu or Catholic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velupillai_Prabhakaran

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seelan

Many comprehensive articles here, by DBS Jeyaraj
https://www.google.com/search?&q=prabhakaran+dbs+jeyaraj

sbarrkum
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Thanks Saurav, will be sharing on FB

sbarrkum
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Saurav

As Tamils in India, we were furious at how the Indian intervention had turned out. Our anger turned inwards; it brought us to the brutal realisation that the Tamils were not only fighting the Sinhala state, but another enemy in disguise: India.

Hmm, why didnt she and other Tamil Nationalist start a separatist war against
India. At the very least cross over and join the fight.

Islamist’s all over the world volunteer for ISIS, Al Qaeda etc.

The rest is standard fare, the eternal victims, the Tamils.

Harry Jecs
Harry Jecs
3 years ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

Maybe because the “diaspora” cares more about the homeland than the other way around. In Islam, it seems like non-Arab Muslims care more about Arab issues(Palestine, invasion of Iraq etc) than Arabs caring about Xinjiang, Kashmir etc. In the US, a lot of Irish Americans care deeply about Ireland, but the Irish seem to have a very contemptuous view of Irish Americans, dismissing them as “plastics”. I think if India was fighting the Indian Tamils, a lot more Sri Lankan Tamils would have been willing to join the fight. Just throwing in my two cents.

sbarrkum
3 years ago
Reply to  Harry Jecs

Harry Jecs
Maybe because the “diaspora” cares more about the homeland than the other way around.
Yes, agree. Locals move on, diaspora remember old culture, enmities, whatever.

I think if India was fighting the Indian Tamils, a lot more Sri Lankan Tamils would have been willing to join the fight.

I doubt it, Sri Lankan Tamils are fairly contemptuous of Indian Tamils. They dont even lend a helping hand to Estate/India Tamils.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  Harry Jecs

“In Islam, it seems like non-Arab Muslims care more about Arab issues(Palestine, invasion of Iraq etc) than Arabs caring about Xinjiang, Kashmir etc. ”

Yeah, Arab muslim>>Non arab muslim, notwithstanding whatever their current standing might be. A bit like Gangetic Hindus>> Other Hindus, as seen by how Hindus from other region flocked to Ayodhya during the ram temple movement, while the reverse is hardly true ( Sabrimala etc) .

Hindu-quotient

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

Well u know my views on the whole topic. 🙂

Ugra
Ugra
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

If the “Our” is referring to groups like Seeman, Vaiko etc, then it’s entirely correct. The 1980s were the highpoint of the Indian strategic establishment. They initiated a lot of Schumpeterian Games in our neighborhood. Some of them went on to become massive successes and some failed real bad, like burning bad.

The LTTE chapter was basically the state trying to fix the Tamil nationalism problem within India. By channelling the collective Dravidian impulses onto an external enemy (Sinhala), they sought to diminish separatist tendencies and (this is important) to get the local Congress unit back into the good books of the Tamils. The local Congress wasn’t really doing well ever since the death of Kamaraj.

It’s really hilarious to see Meena Kandasamy getting worked up, as if they are the Pole Star in the universe of the Indian Establishment. Somewhat like Osama feeling jilted after Russians got out of Afghanistan.

We paid a heavy price in the assassination of Rajiv Gandhi. If not for that, the Congress would have been the premier Hindutva party today. He read the tea leaves very early on.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTKKnWz6gJo&t=14s

Partition of Pakistan and the role of Quaid -e-Azam – Professor Dr. Ishtiaq Ahmed

Good podcast. Perhaps probable guest on browncast

Bhimrao
Bhimrao
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

“Perhaps probable guest on browncast”

+1

Dr Ahmed would make a great guest.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Bhimrao

Another person who doesn’t like the Qaid at all.

Out of 220 million Pakistanis, you all are only drawn towards the extremely small minority that despises the Qaid. What else can one expect from right-wing Hindus? The only Pakistanis you all can accept are those self-flagellating ones who hate their country and their religion. You can’t stand those of us who believe in a sovereign Muslim-majority state.

GauravL
Editor
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

With all respect, even the western liberal commentators who have no kind word to say for Hindutva politics are rarely passing complementary judgements of Jinnah. They might not diss Jinnah as much as some Indians do (you would be surprised to see how many on the Indian Right have higher opinions of Jinnah than they do off Nehru/Gandhi) but rarely does one hear glowing compliments attributed to Jinnah which Nehru and Gandhi seem to always get.

Personally, Kabir are you a proponent of TNT?

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  GauravL

People are free to think whatever they want about the Qaid but he was able to create a new country on the map of the world. That’s an achievement whether you like it or not, as Wolpert points out in his book on the Qaid.

I am well aware that the Hindu Right actually agrees with The Qaid about the Two Nation Theory. After all, if you want India (or Bharat as they call it) to be a Hindu Rashtra, you presumably agree that Pakistan is an Islamic homeland. As far as the Hindu Right is concerned, the Qaid did them a favor by taking away a whole bunch of extra Muslims. It is Nehruvian secularism which is Hindutva’s enemy.

I believe TNT was used in order to obtain concessions for British Indian Muslims. From that standpoint, it was better to argue that we were a nation and not just a religious minority. It is obviously not a factually correct theory. Otherwise, Hindus and Muslims in India could not live together as citizens of one state. But despite my views on TNT, I am happy that Pakistan exists as a sovereign Muslim-majority homeland. I am absolutely against the Hindutva pipedream of “Akhand Bharat”. 220 million Pakistanis are never going to consent to Hindu Raj.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  GauravL

“It is obviously not a factually correct theory. Otherwise, Hindus and Muslims in India could not live together as citizens of one state. But despite my views on TNT, I am happy that Pakistan exists as a sovereign Muslim-majority homeland.”

There is a saying in my hometown which roughly translates to “Everyone want;s a son like Bhagat Singh, but for their neighbor, not their own”, Similarly everyone wants secularism and minority rights, not for themselves, but for their neighbor.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  GauravL

The point is that TNT was politically useful in the 1930s and 40s. It was not factually correct even then. My grandmother in Agra was not from a different “nation” than her neighbors.

Indian nationalism under Pandit Nehru was explictly based on a rejection of TNT (while Pakistani nationalism is based on an acceptance of TNT). India was not supposed to belong to Hindus but to all Indians. This was also the argument for why India could include a Muslim-majority state like Kashmir. For Pakistan, a Muslim-majority state belongs to the Muslim homeland and hence Kashmir is the “unfinished business of Partition”. India’s argument was that the internal demographics of the state have no relevance to its status as part of the Indian nation.

However, if India becomes a Hindu Rashtra then there is no justification for holding on to a Muslim state (except might makes right, which I don’t believe is a moral justification).

Recognizing that TNT is problematic doesn’t mean I want to undo Pakistan. Too much water has flown under the bridge for that. Why would we want to give up our separate identity and accept minority status in a larger whole?

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  GauravL

Not even the ones who say they want to undo Pakistan, want 2 undo Pakistan.

Just like how no Pakistani would accept a subordinate status, similarly y would any Hindutvawadi want more Muslims, then there already are in India, while simultaneously trying to push out the ones already there? Its not as if the Pakistani land is of any religious or cultural value for Hindus. Indian Punjab itself has hardly any significance for Hindus, forget Pakistan.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  GauravL

I’ve come across a lot of people on Twitter who want to undo Pakistan. They go on and on about how it’s a fake country and Hindu land. Despite the fact that anyone with any intelligence knows both nation-states were created at the exact same time.

I agree with you that it makes no sense why anyone on the Hindu Right would want to undo Pakistan. In fact, they should want to send all Muslims to Pakistan. How else do you get a pure Hindu Rashtra? But apparently Akhand Bharat types exist.

GauravL
GauravL
3 years ago
Reply to  GauravL

Even for the most Akhanda Bharat types even they know they’re just being optimistic to the point of stupidity – Just they still continue to hope that a majority of Muslims of the subcontinent to de-islamize (i dont know if thats a correct term) enough to recognize and appreciate their Non Muslim past. The hope is also that subcontinental muslims share the view of history in viewing the Turko-Afghan invaders as invaders but not necessarily ideological ancestors. To this one could say that Pakistan itself is defined as the embodiment of continuity of Delhi Sultanate – Mughal Empire – but the point being definitions can change and that what one can hope.
The reasoning that follows is if this does happen in the modern nation state of Pakistan ( for some obvious reasons Hindutva isnt much concerned with Bangladesh). If such a state could be achieved it would naturally result in deescalation of tensions and make way to something a Economic-cultural zone on the lines of Western Europe.

Will this utopian Eco-Cultural zone be a Hindu dominated state – perhaps not. But something bound by a sense of shared history and culture (someone can say the cultures have began to diverge significantly to be remain similar).

This kinda of Akhand Bharat (or Hindustan or india) is something even someone who identifies primarily as Liberal who is moderately anti Hindutva would hope for.

Will that happen – InshaAllah

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  GauravL

There will be a “de-escalation of tensions” between Pakistan and India only if the issue of the Disputed Territory is solved to the satisfaction of all stakeholders. Otherwise, you can forget it. Certainly the annexation of Occupied Kashmir last year only made things worse.

There is no need for us to “de-islamize” or to see the Mughals as “invaders”. As far as we are concerned, the Mughals were the high point of Indo-Islamic culture in South Asia. Even the fact that you all need us to “de-islamize” is incredibly offensive. Peace is not going to happen on those terms. Imagine if we said, we will only be OK with you if you totally “de-Hinduize”. I imagine you all would find that unacceptable?

GauravL
GauravL
3 years ago
Reply to  GauravL

You dont have to agree with this position – i am merely stating that is the Endgame for Hindutva ideologues – Not making an Hindu Akhanda Bharat. This is the position espoused by RSS and co – You dont have to agree with it – and naturally most Pakistanis wont. But that is their position. And i am not sure where there are majority any takers for that in the populous.
RSS ideal is not creating some giant medieval Hindu Rashtra. That would have even fewer takers if they say so.

The term de-Islamise can be offensive to most muslims i understand – but that is the core argument of RSS – they arent all up in arms to reconvert all 600 million subcontinental muslims. You can disagree with this line of reasoning (even i do to a certain extent) but that is the core argument – It would do well for Liberals in India or all Pakistanis to address that argument instead of building up a Strawman of the Fantasy of Medieval Varna Vyavasthit Hindu Rashtra – Not even the fringe of the fringe wants that.

One can argue that Indian Hindus are already de-Hinduized if that is even a term. Worship, Following of Brahminical rituals has gone down drastically in hindu society. Explicit Caste defense has gone down drastically in India – Wouldnt it be considered to be de-Hinduising ? Hindus (especially Urban) are already well and truly on the road. Modernity has enough ways of changing the courses of cultures if one just lets it do so.

timepaas
timepaas
3 years ago

What did I just read:
“””
People learn languages. They’re not transmitted via genes or even linked to them.
– Davidski (https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/05/an-early-mitanni.html?showComment=1590699577593#c8446408517114630584)
“””
Has AMT become a fringe theory?

GauravL
GauravL
3 years ago

Brown Pundits and Readers – have anyone of you read Niall Ferguson’s work ?
I have been watching the Crowd S3 and am very fascinated by the history of British Empire.
Indian Leftist commentators like Tharoor and Darlymple are extremely scathing in their criticism of Niall Ferguson’s work.
Would you recommend his books – especially The Empire ?
If not which books on the British empire would you recommend ?

principia
principia
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

Everyone comes in with a perspective. Tharoor and Ferguson at least make theirs explicit at the outset.

timepaas
timepaas
3 years ago

@Milan Todorovic
Thanks for asking. I was really hoping somebody will ask me. These are the papers:

* Genomic History of Neolithic to Bronze Age Anatolia, Northern Levant, and Southern Caucasus https://www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-8674(20)30509-2.pdf?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0092867420305092%3Fshowall%3Dtrue
* Discussion: Are the Origins of Indo-European Languages Explained by the Migration of the Yamnaya Culture to the West? https://www.researchgate.net/publication/318751121_Discussion_Are_the_Origins_of_Indo-European_Languages_Explained_by_the_Migration_of_the_Yamnaya_Culture_to_the_West
* The first horse herders and the impact of early Bronze Age steppe expansions into Asia https://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6396/eaar7711

And other links:
* Mitanni https://www.ancient.eu/Mitanni/
* Mitanni https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitanni.

Steppe Theory is now on very weak footing w.r.t. genetics. Anatolia has again proven to be its Waterloo.

Also, Serb and Vedic India share a lot of similarities, no matter where the homeland is. If you believe you are a Vedic, then you are so; that is how Vedic culture spread earlier in major parts of the world. Plus your ancestors did preserve Vedic culture — even against major odds. If you are interested, I can direct you towards becoming more acquainted with it.

Milan Todorovic
Milan Todorovic
3 years ago
Reply to  timepaas

My assertion is that the world history was falsified especially its corner stone – the migration of so-called Slavs to Balkan. This thing has no any supporting evidence but still some morons are citing this, in order to prove that Aryans did not exist. I don’t care, AMT or OIT, as far as there is some evidence that Serbs lived in Balkan before the 7th cAC. If someone can prove that Serbs came from India to Balkan, that is fine, although so far there is no slight evidence. In 19th cAC there were a couple of old thinkers who stated exactly as OIT assertion, but since Vinca’s artefacts after the flood literally surfaced on the bank of Danube about 1900 AC almost all abandoned this theory.

Since the Ice Age there was simply no empty timeslot for arrivals from India to Europe and Russia. OIT have no idea how and when people from India came to Balkan/Europe. They have no idea who lived in Europe for 7000 years before Yamnaya and which language was spoken. This period is almost double of the period since Yamnaya until today – 4700 years. Unlike AMT, OIT simply cannot produce one evidence. It would be very beneficial if you start researching the transition period when Aryans arrived. I don’t know if anyone did such research.

principia
principia
3 years ago

Studwell’s book is mediocre as an economics book, but it is very readable because it has tons of anecdotes so it tends to hook people in. Alice Amsden’s book on East Asia is more thorough and systematic.

A key point she makes is that the so-called “East Asian” model isn’t really East Asian at all. It has been used since the days of Alexander Hamilton, through Imperial Germany and later by Japan. Contra Western propaganda, leading Western countries didn’t develop by using free trade. This is something Ha-Joon Chang makes clear in his magisterial “kicking away the ladder” book from 2002.

America didn’t really start to advocating free trade until it was an extremely powerful country and ahead of Western Europe on an income per head basis.

This is why history is important, yet as Hegel quipped, the only thing we learn from history is that we don’t learn from history. Most developing countries are following a faulty development model designed to enrich the economic core of the world at the expense of the periphery.

H. M. Brough
H. M. Brough
3 years ago
Reply to  Sumit

Could be worse…I feel bad for all the Vietnamese men named Dat Ho.

Harry Jecs
Harry Jecs
3 years ago
Reply to  H. M. Brough

Knew a girl in high school named Mai Ho

Kabir
3 years ago

Is anyone else watching “A Suitable Boy”? The first episode was perfect, just as I imagined the book to be. Loved Maan/Saeeda Bai and the moments of Saeeda Bai singing. Kabir Durrani in cricket whites!

Agarwal: “Holi. A Hindu festival for a Hindu nation” Protesting Muslims being shot by Hindu policemen. The whole thing is plea for Nehruvian Secularism.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

Alas i am in US, and can only watch once its out on Netflix. VPN didn’t work.

I am assuming that the events are set in 50s just like the book was. If even in the 50s, things seemed to call for Nehruvian Secularism, perhaps there never was.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

You can watch it online. Watchserieshd.tv is one place.

The show is set in 1951, just like the novel. But Seth was writing the novel around the time of the Ram Janmabhoomi movement and there are clear parallels in the book. The Shiva temple being built right next to the Alamgiri Mosque is one obvious example. The novel itself is a plea for Nehruvian secularism. Lata having to give up Kabir Durrani simply because he is Muslim. Firoz and Maan’s close relationship and the Nawab Sahab’s close friendship with Mahesh Kapoor despite the tense atmosphere of post-Partition India.

H. M. Brough
H. M. Brough
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

I’ve been reading War and Peace in Modern India…was surprised to learn that Nehru actually believed his crap about secularism and interconfessional harmony, and it informed his relatively dovish foreign policy views.

Of course Indians at large, being illiterate peasants, didn’t give a crap about high-falutin ideologies of any sort.

VijayVan
VijayVan
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

I would have liked to watch, OTOH, I am screen-free on Sundays , no TV, PC , etc

BTW, Kabir rejects her look like
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Suitable_Boy
When her early morning meetings with Kabir are discovered she tries to run away with Kabir, who refuses.

If any novel makes an overt statement like a particular ideology like Nehruvian Sec is good, that would make a poor literature

Prats
Prats
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

I am pretty hesitant to watch A Suitable Boy.

I really liked the book and I am worried they’d butcher it in the adaption.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Prats

So far it is an extremely faithful adaptation. Everything is exactly like it is in the novel.

Maybe a little too much emphasis on Maan/Saeeda Bai as opposed to Lata and Kabir. Tabu and Ishaan are bigger stars than the newcomers playing Lata and Kabir.

I’m happy that the producers are not heterosexualizing Maan and Firoz. That would have upset me.

Ali Choudhury
Ali Choudhury
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

I watched the first episode but will only be sticking with it as my wife likes it. I found the use of English jarring, it made it feel inauthentic. I’m surprised no one in India thought to adapt it, that I would have been interested in. I guess like in Pakistan the only thing producers like to invest in are domestic dramas with saas-bahu\husband-wife\extended family tensions.

Kabir
3 years ago

Vijayvan,

I am intimately familiar with “A Suitable Boy” and can quote chapter and verse. You don’t need to explain the plot to me.

It is true that Kabir refuses to run away with Lata because he wants to be in the IFS. However, he continues to pursue her throughout the novel and it is she who eventually rejects him, explictly because she knows that she cannot marry a Muslim without breaking all ties with her family. The last image we have of Kabir is him walking sadly around Brahmpur on the day of Lata’s wedding.

One of the main themes of the novel is the need for Nehruvian Secularism. That’s why there is explictly an Alamgiri Masjid with a Shiv temple being built next to it (obviously the Babri Masjid) and later there are riots on Dussehra and Muharram. We are supposed to like the characters like Kapoor Sahab and the Nawab who manage to mantain their friendships and not like the Hindu hardliners.

Epsisode 1 clearly puts Agarwal with his “Holi. A Hindu festival for a Hindu nation” in a bad light. Obviously I am in full favor of this since Hindutva is my enemy. Others may differ.

VijayVan
VijayVan
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

\It is true that Kabir refuses to run away with Lata because he wants to be in the IFS. However, he continues to pursue her throughout the novel\

When the opportunity knocks on the door , grab it with both arms; otherwise you can pursue it life long and be a tragic hero. Chicken.

Advik
Advik
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

I’ve held off on trying to initiate any sort of contact with you ever since I started reading the Brown Pundits blog but it is clear to me that your real enemy is not Hindutva but Hinduism itself. You have disparaged Hindu Gods and sacred texts on multiple occasions and now you put down a Hindu religious festival as well. Also judging by your fascination with the fact that the main character of your favorite show is a Muslim man with a Hindu girlfriend I’d say you have the typical Muslim fetishization of non-Muslim women.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Advik

You should have held off longer. You sound like an idiot.

You know nothing about me and have no idea whether I am even interested in women at all so assuming that I “fetishize” non-Muslim women is absurd. If you knew anything about “A Suitable Boy” you would know that it is a novel written about 30 years ago. Lata doesn’t end up with Kabir but with a nice Khatri boy named Haresh Khanna (that should make you happy). In fact, in some ways the novel makes a right-wing point that Hindus and Muslims should not intermarry (it is set in 1951 after all).

The comment about Holi is not my personal opinion but a direct quote from one of the characters in the show. And yes, the viewer is not supposed to like someone who refers to India in 1951 as a “Hindu nation”. Newsflash: It’s NOT a Hindu nation but a SECULAR State. That is what Pandit Nehru (the greatest Indian of all) intended.

Crawl back in your hole Hindutvadi.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

Calling Nehru the greatest Indian is a bit of a stretch….

Ali Choudhury
Ali Choudhury
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

That would be Ashoka and\or Buddha.

GauravL
GauravL
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

That person by the Virtue of Greatness would be unnamed and unknown 😛

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Pandit Nehru is the founding father of the Republic of India. He led India to freedom from the British, was the first Prime Minister and established Nehruvian Secularism despite the trauma of the Partition. He believed in an India for all Indians, not just for Hindus. That is enough to make him one of the greatest (if not THE greatest) Indian ever.

What did RSS types do during the freedom movement? Oh,that’s right: NOTHING.

Hoju
Hoju
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Jinnah didn’t feel that way about Nehru.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

“What did RSS types do during the freedom movement? Oh,that’s right: NOTHING.”

Considering that their leading light was incarcerated in Andamans for 13 odd years. Which is like 13 years more than what the entirety of what Muslim League suffered, i would say their contribution is tad bit more than Muslim League’s contribution.

Not much but still….

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Quaid-e-Azam believed in constitutionalism and not in civil disobedience. That’s why no one from the Muslim League went to jail.

“Veer” Savarkar was writing mercy petitions to the British. The Hindutva types didn’t even believe in the tricolor. Their attempts to discredit Pandit Nehru (without whom there would be no Republic of India) are beyond shameless.

Advik
Advik
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

You’re the one who not only sounds like an idiot but is an idiot. I’m aware that the work you’re referring to is some kind of book or movie but either way I think it’s fucking stupid anti-male Hindu garbage. Also calling me a Hindutvadi is fucking hilarious considering my grandparents protected Sikhs during the 1984 genocide (that was perpetrated by the so-called “greatest Indian’s worthless grandson) and they used to teach the poor neighboring Muslim kids for free after they retired. I’m also completely opposed to Hindutva and I hate Modi, Shah, BJP, and RSS with flaming passion since I consider them to be an enemy of Hindus. Also, you’re Pakistani why are you so concerned about India being a secular nation. You’re an anti-Hindu dumbfuck for supporting Nehru who brought shoes to the inside of temples. Why are you so concerned about the Indian freedom movement? You realize in the long run nothing that Nehru or Gandhi did make any impact? If it hadn’t been for World War II India would have been conolized for another twenty years maybe.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Advik

You basically accused me of “love jihad” without even knowing whether I’m straight or not. That’s peak Hindutvadi.

I’m sure the great Vikram Seth really cares that you think ASB is “anti Hindu male garbage”. You’re probably not even capable of reading books, idiot.

Keep digging your hole. I’m not going to engage with you or defend myself to you. I have no time for trolls who are anti Pandit Nehru. You’re not even worth taking his name. Fuck off.

Advik
Advik
3 years ago
Reply to  Advik

Kabir you are a worthless pile of shit and you will one day burn in hell for all eternity. That is the only thing about you that makes me happy. I didn’t accuse you of love jihading either you fucking moron I simply said you fetishize Hindu females. Also, I don’t care about Vikram Seth and I am more than capable of reading GOOD books, not the anti-male Hindu garbage that come out of the Nehruvian ecosystem. Nehru brought shoes into mandirs and insulted Hindu religious practices on numerous occasions. He is about as great as your worthless self is. He will not be remembered in fifty years when India becomes a Hindu country.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Advik

You have already demonstrated your complete lack of literary taste. Keep digging.

And you seem to have a real problem with reading comprehension. What makes you assume I’m even straight? Your accusation of “fetishizing” non-Muslim women is beyond ridiculous.

Fuck off troll. I’m going to ignore you from now on.

Advik
Advik
3 years ago
Reply to  Advik

Kabir, you have no right to insult my literary taste when I have read all of Arthur Conan Doyle’s Sherlock Holmes related work as well as a lot of Sita Ram Goel stuff. Also, it is entirely possible for gay people to fetishize straight relationships and I know this because I am gay and I fetishize some straight relationships. You are living proof that my Hindu Punjabi ancestors made the right decision to stay as close to Ludhiana as possible. Who knows what could have happened if we moved to Pakistan’s Punjab. We could have been assaulted in the dead of the night by Islamist radicals such as yourself.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Advik

Sita Ram Goel. Ah yes, Right wing Hindutvadi stuff. Makes sense. You called ASB “trash” hence you have NO literary taste. Is your degree in English Literature? If not, shut up.

LOL at “Islamist radical”. You have no idea who you are speaking to. I am a Nehruvian Secularist. I challenge you to find one comment of mine over my three years on this forum where I have advocated for Sharia Law (which is what Islamists do). You won’t because there isn’t one.

Advik
Advik
3 years ago
Reply to  Advik

Kabir you’re an absolute idiot – having a degree in English literature doesn’t mean you have great literary taste or even an understanding of literature. I know people with degrees in economics who have never read Rothbard in their life. Degrees are just a thing to get away. Also Nehru himself was an Islamist according to the real greatest Indian Vallabhai Patel. By the way the fact that you a Pakistani identify as Nehruvian secularist is proof that it is bad for male hindus and India. As a Pakistani you want your country to do better than India so you want India to pick the weaker option for them. Also as a Pakistani you hate male Hindus and live to see female hindus kidnapped and raped by Islamists. You are no doubt in favor of forced conversion and rape as you are Pakistani and most of Pakistan is glad to see the faith of their ancestors destroyed. Pakistan is truly a degenerate country.

Advik
Advik
3 years ago
Reply to  Advik

Kabir you’re an absolute idiot – having a degree in English literature doesn’t mean you have great literary taste or even an understanding of literature. I know people with degrees in economics who have never read Rothbard in their life. Degrees are just a thing to get away. Also Nehru himself was an Islamist according to the real greatest Indian Vallabhai Patel. By the way the fact that you a Pakistani identify as Nehruvian secularist is proof that it is bad for male hindus and India. As a Pakistani you want your country to do better than India so you want India to pick the weaker option for them. Also as a Pakistani you hate male Hindus and live to see female hindus kidnapped and raped by Islamists. You are no doubt in favor of forced conversion and rape as you are Pakistani and most of Pakistan is glad to see the faith of their ancestors destroyed. Pakistan is truly a degenerate country.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Advik

Yes of course all 220 million Pakistanis are in favor of forced conversion and rape. Please keep making stupid assumptions. Bigot.

Again, if you had actually read ASB you would know that there is a love affair between Maan Kapoor (Hindu male) and Saeeda Bai Firozabadi (Muslim female). But of course that doesn’t fit your narrative.

Razib, can you please ban this troll? After all this would seem to come under your heading of “don’t make stupid comments”.

Advik
Advik
3 years ago
Reply to  Advik

Kabir, you are being absolutely ridiculous I never said all 220 million Pakistanis are in favor of forced conversion because I know for a fact that there are millions of Pakistanis who are not Muslim and fear for their lives. Also, I’m not in favor of the Hindu male Muslim female relationship either because interfaith marriage is against Hinduism. Razib sir please don’t block me as I am such a big fan of yours.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Advik

“You are no doubt in favor of forced conversion and rape as you are Pakistani”– Your exact words. This clearly implies that the entire population of Pakistan (all 220 million of us) are “no doubt” in favor of forced conversion and rape. Don’t try to walk back your statement now.

If Razib “Sir” has any sense of fair play and equal standards he would recognize you as the anti-Muslim and anti-Pakistan troll that you are. Not holding my breath though.

Slapstik
Slapstik
3 years ago

Given the first episode, “a suitable boy” is terribly made. Actually, let me rephrase. It is very well made for the white British audience, but Indians will find it jarring. A bit like how Indians find British “curry” rather inauthentic. Anyway, I haven’t made up my mind fully yet as there are 5 more episodes coming up.

Though I must say BBC has hedged its bets with the director, the cast and the location (all Indian). One of my family friends is acting in it too.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  Slapstik

One of the actors from Lucknow was jailed during recent anti NRC protests

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

How about a Bronson vs apthik showdown?

Jat Edgelord vs Brahmin edgelord

The most aryans of aryans. So aryan u get to find them in Europe

justanotherlurker
justanotherlurker
3 years ago

India is getting delivery of 5 Rafales and pro govt voices are making a lot of noise about it. Congress ecosystem is trying to revive their scam allegations ( supposedly 1670 cr per aircraft vs 560cr as per the deal that MMS was negotiating): https://twitter.com/srivatsayb/status/1287681180284760065

Also MMS was supposedly looking to buy 120+ Rafales vs. 35 under Modi..

What is the truth here? My starting position with Modi is to be sceptical of allegations of financial irregularities but would love to hear from more informed members here on the details/nuances..

Bhimrao
Bhimrao
3 years ago

No irregularity or scam. Indians being an immature people love mudslinging and cry ‘backstab’, ‘betrayed’ etc when we get humiliated by Chinese or Pakistanis. Won’t invest in capacity building and then try to beg, bitch and bargain on cost every single time.

https://www.sify.com/news/fact-check-are-we-really-paying-three-times-more-for-each-rafale-jet-news-columns-skdsLSaabhbce.html

I read an article about how IAF pissed off Honeywell via lying, delays, haggling and as a result Honeywell tacitly refused to sell IAF their engines. No one has time for these endless Indian procurement dramas and IAF will pay through it’s nose for the poor reputation it has earned among OEMs.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago

I mean MMS is heralded as the best economist PM ever, a man who couldn’t pass even 1 (yes not even 1) economic legislation in his entire tenure of 10 years. This should tell u something abt “Congress ecosystem”.

Also as it goes in India, we have a deal on paper, and then the deal which get the goodies. Why 120+ , MMS can claim he was getting 560 Rafales for 1 crore each, since nothing came out it. And no way to either prove or disapprove it.

And finally politically there are only 2 vectors on which Modi can realistically claim that he is better than the Congress. Since economy etc isn’t doing that well. Hindutva and Corruption. Why would he jeopardize his political career on a 2 make money on a deal, which is transparent enough for he opposition to cry horse on. Rather do in on some opaque stuff like election bonds or something.

I would go far to say that India’s NPA problem (Malaya case a good example) is precisely not being fixed, because any deal will be seen as a sell out to Corporates, and Modi would rather win, than fix India’s banks.

justanotherlurker
justanotherlurker
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Good points, Bhimrao and Saurav. Largely agree.
As far IAF’s competence, they have to be the world record holder in plane crashes during training by a long, long margin (even normalizing for the size of the airforce). Tells a lot..There was even a whole frikking movie made around it – Rang De Basanti..

Speaking of which, there was an air of revolution, an awakening in the 2012-2014 timeframe, a Krantikari jazba among the yuvak…it seems to have dissipated as suddenly as it had appeared.. Is the BJP that much better at stanching dissent or was it manufactured/kindled/nurtured by the RSS ecosystem (even if the front soldiers were not always them and others benefited too (e.g. Kejri)) and the Congress just doesn’t have the institutional strength to do the same and can only do some noise on twitter ..

justanotherlurker
justanotherlurker
3 years ago

or it could be that people (or youth in particular) are more happier with the BJP government than they were with MMS in his second term. Modi has done a good job delivering on the basics (Ujala, JanDhan, continuing MNREGA etc..) but the economy has only been sputtering along, and small/medium business owners have been complaining about a slowdown from the days of demonetization (a horrible self goal if there ever was one)

timepaas
timepaas
3 years ago

@Milan Todorovic
For a detailed linguistic model, you can look at the following paper:
https://www.academia.edu/36998766/Five_waves_of_Indo-European_expansion_a_preliminary_model_2018_

In time, I think more details should emerge.

Milan Todorovic
Milan Todorovic
3 years ago

Homage to Ennio Morricone (1928-2020)

Once again – Once Upon the Time in the West – Toskana, one of many homelands between Shetland, Xinjiang and Yemen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0Umq_ajh7I

The Good (A), The Bad (M) and The Ugly (K)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFa1-kciCb4

For A Few Dollars More

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xPxMAhMRfk

timepaas
timepaas
3 years ago

After listening to the instrument “Wauah Wauah”, I can longer listen to this song with a straight face “The good the bad and the ugly” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enuOArEfqGo)

I have all the songs — that you posted — as I like instrumental and orchestral music. Some songs like the following would be greatly appreciated:
O Fortuna https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJC-_j3SnXk

Andre Rieu is good; he has excellent stage management skills. The one that I like the best, however, is Joe Hisaishi.

timepaas
timepaas
3 years ago
Reply to  timepaas

Correction: longer -> no longer

Milan Todorovic
Milan Todorovic
3 years ago
Reply to  timepaas

You probably know this AR’s one as well. This sound you may probably find somewhere in India because it originated among Dacian (Geti) shepherds, some of them reached India.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orL-w2QBiN8

What would be your suggestion in regard – who would be The Good, The Bad and The Ugly @BP and do you agree with my above proposition?

Milan Todorovic
Milan Todorovic
3 years ago
Reply to  timepaas

Something older, pretty different and related to the above-mentioned Yemen. It is required a significant thinking effort to establish the link with The Arrival of the Queen of Sheba. Don’t worry, just relax:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TGKJ9MgCOQ

timepaas
timepaas
3 years ago

I have heard the AR’s song. I don’t really know about the similarities between musical instruments. Indian flute based music, however, is very old [1]. Lord Krishna loved played it.
You can read more about the Harappan connection with Mesopotamian music here [2].

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bansuri
2. https://osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/kce5x/

timepaas
timepaas
3 years ago

I don’t know anything regarding The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly @ BP. What would I get by arguing? I am mainly interested in talking about exciting things, namely: science, maths, engineering, programming, philosophy, technology, chess, etc. I hope that I become better at these. If you know some interesting stuff about these topics, do tell. I want to become really good at these — especially programming and mathematics — as they are necessary for career building. Don’t you think a place for this would be awesome?

One reason I talk to you is that you are not involved in SA politics — which anyways is a waste of time. The most important topic, I think, should be: How to learn fast.

So, let me do a survey: What kind of web platform will serve your needs? What do you find unsatisfactory? What will pique your curiosity? What will help people around you become better?

Prats
Prats
3 years ago
Reply to  Sumit

“Wait RSS / Hindutva are apparently Pro-BLM?”

Yeah. Pro-BJP news orgs like Sudhir Chawdhary have been talking on prime time about bringing down British statues and renaming places to erase the memory of ‘ghulami’ a la BLM.

girmit
girmit
3 years ago
Reply to  Prats

It’s a natural fit, and I recall someone making a compelling case for hindutva as a social movement in drawing parallels to marcus garveys idea of “negritude”.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

Wow, the homophobia is really clear now.

And I’m happy to not comment here but if people insist on mentioning Islam and/or Pakistan, I reserve the right to respond.

StraightGay
StraightGay
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

“Wow, the homophobia is really clear now.”

Heterophobia is a greater issue in this website. But if somebody points it out he will be instantly labelled as “homophobic”,”racist”,”xenophobic”,”Nazi”,”ISIS” etc.

AnAn regularly makes heterophobic and homophilic posts e.g. “including LGBTQ muslims” but not “Straight Brown Muslims”. His posts are clearly heterophobic. Nobody has problem with that.
But when a Taqiyya-practising Brown Islamist Geneticist makes a little gay joke then it is a huge offense.

A lot of people here are prejudiced against Brown Conservative Straight Muslim Males.

#Straight_lives_matter
#Keep_brown_muslim_countries_brown

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  StraightGay

Razib may be many things but he is the furthest thing from an “Islamist”. He’s not even a Muslim.

There is no threat to straight lives so don’t worry about that.

StraightGay
StraightGay
3 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

“Razib may be many things but he is the furthest thing from an “Islamist”. He’s not even a Muslim.”

As a Brown Conservative Straight Muslim Male, I know Razib Khan and Taqiyya much better than a liberal who endorses homosexuality. He is the bearer(either openly or secretly) of the Brown Conservative Muslim heritage. Also, contrary to what the anti-brown “woke” Eastern media say, he IS a NON-VIOLENT Islamist.

“There is no threat to straight lives so don’t worry about that.”

Straight genocide is very real…specially against Brown Straight Conservative Muslim Males. Brown lands and brown cultures are being destroyed by LGBT,feminism,abortion,massive non-brown invasions,myth of brown-supremacists and self-hating brown liberals.

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

Your whole bathhouse metaphor was extremely distasteful if not outright homophobic.

Since you are not a competant psychiatrist your opinion about “psychotic breaks” is neither here nor there.

If my country or religion aren’t attacked here, I truly have zero interest in what you all say to each other.

Bhimrao
Bhimrao
3 years ago

https://indianexpress.com/article/trending/trending-in-india/arjun-ram-meghwal-bhabhi-ji-papad-can-fight-coronavirus-reactions-6521550/lite/

“the Minister of State for Parliamentary Affairs and Heavy industries is seen talking about the ingredients of a brand called ‘Bhabhi ji papad’ and says that it helps “develop antibodies” to fight against the virus.”

Such are our netas, this clown gets to run (into the ground) BHEL, BEML etc. Also, PM will be personally doing dramebaazi in Ayodhya.

Talent and Priorities…

These ‘grassroots’ people will take us ahead of China.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  Bhimrao

“Such are our netas, this clown gets to run (into the ground) BHEL, BEML etc”

TBF these companies have hardly anything to write home about, anyways. Might as well run them into the ground, since can’t sell it.

Bhimrao
Bhimrao
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Vedanta’s Agarwal (who made a fortune on Hindustan Zinc privatization) had eyes on BHEL but GoI will not privatize it while there is still time. BEML makes good train-sets (Hyundai-Rotem) and is also a viable business in private hands.

I have friends who worked at BHEL and the impression I got was that it’s work culture is worse than even HAL, that says quite a lot.

GoI is dragging its feet on scrapping Air India planes and selling it’s brand-rights to a toilet cleaner manufacturer even after billions sunk. I don’t understand how can GoI’s babus and netas think they can run a world class competitive business? Even super focused people barely manage to keep things together. What hope do these amateurs have?

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  Bhimrao

Because the plan is not to run it effectively, but to exert power and influence. On HZL i think overall GOI got a better deal than Vedanta. Vedanta overall is bleeding money, wont be surprised it joins their BFF Jindal and Essar, in India’s best run companies, on the NPA list.

I mean HAL wanted to be a partner in Rafale deal. I would not trust HAL to manufacture a screw for my house.

Ugra
Ugra
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

HAL gets some bad press rightfully. But honestly, they are the premier aerospace company in the Middle East, South and South East Asia. Their capabilities exceed the general output of several well known manufacturing countries like South Korea or Israel.

Ronen
Ronen
3 years ago
Reply to  Bhimrao

It’s hard for me to fathom why the doyens of the government don’t pull out a few case studies on how ISRO works and apply similar principles and management practices to HAL and other govt. tech companies.

Ugra
Ugra
3 years ago
Reply to  Ronen

ISRO is a cost centre, HAL is a profit centre. In fact, HAL makes higher revenues and profits than ISRO. Why would you want to turn HAL into a R&D focussed interdisciplinary organization like ISRO?

Many BP commenters are regurgitating the low quality articles of Indian journalism. HAL has its own dynamics and set of problems. They are also in a much different class compared to their Asian peers. They are leagues ahead of any Israeli, South Korean or Australian aerospace companies.

One commenter above was talking about “screws for home”. HAL supplies composite fasteners to Airbus for virtually their entire fleet. Next time, when you step into an Airbus, remember that a HAL manufactured structural component is part of that airframe.

Jay
Jay
3 years ago
Reply to  Ugra

HAL has had a bad press from both the Airforce and the middle men for arms dealers, in fact they both are interconnected. And obviously, they are a classic sarkari organization which has its own dynamics in terms of ways of working, productivity etc.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  Ugra

Never knew that HAL fanbois existed LOL

Wake me up when they have indigenously produced anything world class being bought by a 3rd country. Without millions being poured plus the plum contracts it gets from the Indian Govt, it has absolutely zilch to show. Yeah perhaps we should all be thankful that they have become efficient enough to produce composite fasteners for Airbus

https://theprint.in/defence/indian-army-ex-chief-wasnt-surprised-when-dassault-junked-hal-as-rafale-partner/160715/

A regular Middle man (who like fought a war) , had this to say ☝️

VijayVan
VijayVan
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

If India is in Indo-Pacific startegic alliance in earnest , it has chance to become a manufacturing and maintanance hub for modern arms and be in the supply chains that matter

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

If HAL can even reverse engineer a Rafale (without India going back begging to Dessault for parts, like we do for Russians) or even jointly produce a world class next generation air craft (which some other country apart from us actually buys) with US companies , i would count my stars

Jay
Jay
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Not a fanboi, but HAL is not that bad of an organization. Both Dhruv and LCH are from HAL, all the mid life and EOL upgrades for the MiG’s and Mirages came from them. Tejas is a big leap in their capability, in spite of all the odds that Airforce and defense acquisition cartel posed to them.

So, yes, they are not Chengdu to reverse engineer en-masse but they still have done well.

Siddharth
Siddharth
3 years ago
Reply to  Ugra

“They are leagues ahead of any Israeli, South Korean or Australian aerospace companies”
As someone who works in Aerospace and has interacted with many folks who have worked at HAL, I find this v. hard to believe. It’s known to be a sink for ambition and does a great job of centrifuging out any youth even remotely interested in working hard and progressing in their career.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  Siddharth

Forget other countries, its own country air force chief, which is like 100 percent buyers of its defense products, had this to say

https://theprint.in/defence/could-have-built-rafale-jets-in-india-says-former-hal-chief/121465/

“Air Chief Marshal AY Tipnis, a former IAF chief, said building Rafales in India would have been a challenging task for the HAL though not impossible with transfer of manufacturing technology from France. “The fact is HAL has not performed to the level it could have. It promises more than it can deliver and quality of work has been substandard in many cases. It has also backtracked on its promises.”

Ugra
Ugra
3 years ago
Reply to  Siddharth

Would be really interested in knowing names of companies from those countries (Aussie, S. Korea and Israel) that have a higher platform integration experience than HAL.

Also not surprised by the comments dissing HAL. A lot of it stems from technical illiteracy and a general intent to confuse organizational issues with competence.

In time perhaps, the average Indian will find it easier to own up to technical achievements. Once upon a time, there used to be a general disbelief about the cricketing prowess.

Bhimrao
Bhimrao
3 years ago
Reply to  Siddharth

@Ugra
No one is technically illiterate here, most are being non-confronational.

On manufacturing prowess:
1) Look at the production rates, I have been hearing about deadlines missed by HAL forever, look at the wobly plywood mattress foam cutouts being used as jigs on the fighter production line. It is embarrassing. Look at the unbelievably ugly sheet-metal work on refurbished(by HAL) Russian planes.

2) Look at the rate at which Dhruvs crash. They have crashed 19 times in last 15 years. Even Soviet helicopters are better manufactured.

3) HAL gets to supply Airbus/Boeing etc because of compulsory offset clauses, the other beneficiary being our IT companies. And the stuff they supply is low tech anyways.

On R&D:
ADA not HAL designed and integrated Tejas.

Dhruv was designed by MBB.

Sitara trainer was a HAL project and it really showed how incompetent they are. Some American company out of Maryland is redesigning it.

That leaves LCH, HTT-40 and LUH.

LCH is regular swadesi jugaad, it is Dhruv in with some cosmetic surgery.
LUH is work in progress (and light helicopter seems not to be a very difficult thing to make).
HTT-40 is actually good, although a waste of effort and resources that should have gone into more pressing programs.

Here is a very cool video everyone should watch of a HAL guy giving a walk around HTT-40:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VI3FsHMVEec

Now let us come to licensed builds:
1) HAL Nagpur charges IAF about 1.5 times more money to screw up knocked down kits (due to abysmal human resource leading to unbelievable man hours per airplane) than the same plane made in Russia.
2) In deep upgrade programs, like that of Mirages, HAL plays middle man between Thales/Dassault and IAF. It has a captive customer and plays all sorts of dirty tricks to derail competition from TATA(for Airbus 295).
3) HAL Kanpur makes and sells a plane Do228 that no one in the world would buy at that price. Mahindra aerospace could build a cheaper plane if given a chance.

HAL (and NAL) are a drain on national resources and must be privatized ASAP.

Bhimrao
Bhimrao
3 years ago
Reply to  Siddharth

@Ugra
* non confrontational
* wobbly

Korea Aero Industries makes T-50 jets which are exported widely to paying customers. They also made heavy helicopter Surion and a turbo-trainer too. They have license produced F-16s and a bunch of other helicopters.

Israel Aerospace Industries still makes a bunch of Gulfstream Jets. It used to be great at fighter planes before realizing that they were not worth the effort. Makes world-beating missiles, drones and what not. Most importantly, it competes and wins in open market throughout the world. IAI+Elta+Elbit+Rafael are more prolific than any other Aerospace combine other than Europeans and Americans.

Japan’s Mitsubishi Heavy Industry makes the big and bad-ass SpaceJet and has already flown prototypes for fifth gen fighters, it (like the Koreans) also makes a very large part of Boeing/Airbus’s supply chain. Kawasaki makes P-1 and C-2 big planes while Ishikawa makes big jet engines (recently even completed building 120 kN XF-9, suck it China!)

Anyone, absolutely anyone across the world (except maybe Indonesia, their planes suck too) who is serious about engineering humiliates us in scale and technology. It does not matter whether it is railway, automobiles, software or airplanes. We suck.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  Siddharth

Everything what Bhim said plus can HAL at least change their naming conventions in the meantime. What up with names like Tejas (sounds like a low level Shiv Sena operative) and Sitara (sounds like a model’s name in those T-Series music video) ?

Bhimrao
Bhimrao
3 years ago
Reply to  Siddharth

Yaad piya ki aane lagi!- Sitara

Also to me Tejas sounds like Tejasvi Yadav. Whenever I look at its ugly design I am reminded of Lalu’s pudgy, short offspring.

Ugra
Ugra
3 years ago
Reply to  Siddharth

@Bhimrao

There is such a thing as defense firm ranking in the industry which allows a player wise comparison of revenues, EBITDA and sectoral shares. The fact that you are providing me anecdotes to prove your point shows that you are unaware of such metrics. Many defense firm CEOś regularly use this metric for target setting for sales teams and as a buttress point in their annual address for impact. For example, the Lockheed Martin CEO uses it in their press releases to showcase sales and revenue achievements.

https://people.defensenews.com/top-100/

HAL is ranked at 43 for 2019, the only Asian companies ahead of it are Elbit and Hanwha, both of which have only a marginal presence in aerospace (UAVs). They derive their primary revenue from electronics, artillery and ISR system solutions. They have never attempted to design, build, sell and maintain fighter jets/helicopters. Let me reiterate, according to the most followed defense industry watchers, HAL is a premier aerospace company next only to American, EUropean, Russian and Chinese companies.

Israelis, South Koreans, Japanese aerospace efforts haven’t achieved anything close to what HAL has achieved in spite of having a better industrial base, higher per capita income and a larger R&D ecosystem. The reasons, I will save for another day.

Allow me to enlighten you just a little bit more. In 2018, HAL was ranked 6 places ahead of Dassault. Reason – Dassault had a record breaking 354 strikes by unions in that financial year, affecting output. People who think HAL has a bad working culture haven’t met the French worker!!

Inferiority complex and technical illiteracy ensures wilful ignorance of facts.

Ronen
Ronen
3 years ago
Reply to  Ugra

“People who think HAL has a bad working culture haven’t met the French worker”

I can’t speak for the average French factory worker but I have met graduates in aerospace from French Engineering schools (the Ecole Polytechniques) and Indians from the various IIT aerospace programmes and overall my experience was that the French had far more practical hands-on experience than the IITians.

With the French Masters and PhD students, they can actually switch over to the civilian side for a secure career since the HQ & production centre for Airbus is based at Toulouse not far away from the Dassault factory at Biarritz. So there are greater pull factors for French engineers to remain in their country while many top-tier Indian engineers leave for R&D opportunities overseas. Even with all the strikes, the overall production capabilities for Dassault exceed that of HAL.

DaThang
DaThang
3 years ago

I have a question for Razib. A while back, you tweeted this picture, was this intended to show some remaining bicamerality of the mind?
https://imgur.com/a/uYKzCRU

Brown
Brown
3 years ago

does the lancet’s numbers of population projection make sense? indian population to be 109 crores in 2100.

Sumit
Sumit
3 years ago
Reply to  Brown

Sounds about right. India will hit peak population in this century and then decline. If trends continue.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

In the 70s- 80s Bollywood there used to be stereotypical blonde wig, desi villian supposedly from UK, much like how Russians were doing Cold war Hollywood. Almost always, his name was Robert or as he pronounced it ‘Rah-bert’. His catchline was “i don’t know what crores mean” since he only dealt in Dollars, and used to smuggle gold bars in those white colored Ambassador cars.

Good old days

GauravL
Editor
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

Rahbert and Mona Darlingg

Prats
Prats
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

1 crore = 100 lakh = 10 million

Brown
Brown
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

one crore=10 million

sbarrkum
3 years ago
Reply to  Razib Khan

i don’t know what crores means

Very logical naming for decimal system
Five zeroes is 1 lakh.
Ten zeroes is a crore (koti in Sinhala).

Similarly writing dates and address in grammatical Sinhala. Assume the same in Indian Languages.

Date in words or Number: 2020-07-30

Address
Country
City
Street, House #
Surname, Given name

Hoju
Hoju
3 years ago

Proof that Madrasis are also just there for because of the Lal Qila speeches.

comment image

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago

https://caravanmagazine.in/commentary/allah-baksh-sumroos-life-shows-that-indian-muslims-are-not-pakistanis-left-behind

“ The narrative that all Muslims got together to seek India’s partition on the basis of the two-nation theory is now a few decades old. It has acquired salience again, with some hyperventilating neo-nationalists reiterating that all Muslims are traitors as they joined Muhammad Ali Jinnah and his Muslim League to divide India. These people forget that a large number of Muslims, who consciously decided to stay back, had a choice—either to leave and be Pakistanis or stay back in India and choose their homeland. Many opted for the latter. A similar choice was made by many Hindus who decided to stay back in Pakistan. However, staying back in a democratic, secular and plural India was different from opting for a regressive and sectarian Islamist Pakistan. The future of both, who stayed behind, has proved that so tellingly. “

Bhimrao
Bhimrao
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

He was assassinated by Muslim League people. His nemesis, famous G M Syed was quite a character, who betrayed his people and single handed-ly destroyed his motherland (India/Sindh). At least Syed had to face his karma in this life itself.

There were a lot of such patriotic Muslim leaders, especially from around Lucknow (non Deobandis too) who loved their motherland and fellow Indians, and tried very hard to stop this madness.

Bhimrao
Bhimrao
3 years ago
Reply to  Bhimrao

Lives of Liaquat (nuff said), Suhrawardy (rioter), G M Syed (manipulator), Bhutto (nuff said), Miss Bhutto (Jihadi), Sharif (Kargil) and many-many other Pakistani leaders, and even groups like Ahmedis and tribal-Pashtuns do seem to have a tinge of poetic justice.

Ugra
Ugra
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

Caravan does a fine job of ignoring reality. The 1946 elections held in the Central and United Provinces was a watershed in convincing Congress and the British that the Indian Muslims were indeed in favour of creation of Pakistan. It was for the first time India’s Muslims voted overwhelmingly for the ML, ditching Congress in the process. ML had a single point agenda – the creation of a separate Muslim state while Congress did not have any such points in its manifesto. An overwhelming 85% of Muslims voted for ML. This was the reason Jinnah had to be involved in negotiations for British withdrawal – otherwise the Muslim constituency would not be represented by Congress – they did not win their votes.

“Bernard Waites (17 January 2012). South Asia and Africa After Independence: Post-colonialism in Historical Perspective. Palgrave Macmillan. pp. 45–. ISBN 978-0-230-35698-6. The 1946 election was, in effect, a plebiscite among Muslims on Pakistan and a mighty success for the League, which won 90 per cent of the Muslim seats.”

When it comes to history, Indian marxists are both malicious and calculating. They will create precedents and events, where none exist and will ignore hard evidence, which exists.

Prats
Prats
3 years ago
Reply to  Ugra

“An overwhelming 85% of Muslims voted for ML.”

85% of the Muslims eligible to vote. That would have been around 14% of the adult Muslim population at the time.

So it’d be more correct to say that it was the Muslim elites that overwhelmingly voted for partition.

https://www.huffingtonpost.in/rupa-subramanya/facts-dont-back-the-argument-that-most-indian-muslims-wanted-pa_a_22488885/

Kabir
3 years ago
Reply to  Prats

Thank you. You beat me to the electoral franchise argument.

Indian Muslims are the ones whose ancestors voted with their feet against Pakistan.

Saurav
Saurav
3 years ago
Reply to  Prats

And what according to u non elite Muslims wanted? Perhaps they didn’t’ want partition, i presume.

Rupa Subramanya , really? LOL

Prats
Prats
3 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

“And what according to u non elite Muslims wanted? Perhaps they didn’t’ want partition, i presume.”

That I don’t know. It’s in the realm of speculation. I am sure a large plurality or even a majority wanted a separate state.

I was just pointing out the fallacy in using election data as revealed preference of all Muslims.

Hoju
Hoju
3 years ago
Reply to  Prats

If you look at the mass rallies, protests, and riots, it becomes pretty clear that support for Partition was not just an elite phenomenon.

GauravL
GauravL
3 years ago

Some good news from Mumbai with the report on Sero survey released yesterday
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d67JdTATkYM

BP appears extremely uninterested in Covid for a bunch of Nerds

Sumit
Sumit
3 years ago
Reply to  GauravL

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-53576653

So it seems 57% of Mumbai slum dwellers have antibodies for Covid-19. So Mumbai slums are basically already at herd immunity ? (assuming the survey is a couple of weeks old).

Only 16% non-slum dwellers in Mumbai have covid. Can’t find the actual results online just news articles ?

Sumit
Sumit
3 years ago
Reply to  Sumit

closest thing I found to the actual report

https://twitter.com/Mundra08/status/1288101676931411970

GauravL
GauravL
3 years ago
Reply to  Sumit

ANI had publised the BMC report yesterday evening. could be found on ANI twitter feed