Open Thread – 07/25/2020 – Brown Pundits

So How Asia Works is very discounted on Kindle in the USA. If you haven’t read it, I recommend it.

In light of the increased comment activity on this weblog, I ask commenters to shy away from too many stupid comments. If you think you may say something stupid, please be cautious, because I may just delete it. My role as a moderator is basically to periodically engage in some ‘natural selection’ and apply some pressure. This is not something that is up for debate.

There is no schedule for the podcasts, but another will be dropping within the next few hours, and more stuff is going to be recorded tomorrow, and I just recorded something today on foreign policy with Richard Hanania.

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402 Replies to “Open Thread – 07/25/2020 – Brown Pundits”

  1. @Razib –
    What are the some of the Y haplogroups associated with AASI ? Basically are there any Y haplogroups of the native hunter gatherers from before IVC ?

    1. @RazibKhan, are modern-day Palestinians(both Christians and Muslims) ancestrally/genetically the same as Israeli jews? So does it mean that their ancestors were Jews & they are also the children of Israel?

      1. H is pretty old in South Asia and in all likelihood predates iranian HG contact by thousands of years.

      2. “H is pretty old in South Asia and in all likelihood predates iranian HG contact by thousands of years.”

        If H is an aboriginal/AASI haplogroup then how can H also be an IranHG haplogroup?

        1. BTW, i previously thought that Dravidian language is from IHG. But if this is the case then why do Paniyas who are mostly AASI speak Dravidian?

          So it may also mean that Dravidian language is from AASI. Something like: AASI people in the Indus spoke Dravidian Brahui even before IHG arrived. Then IHG genetically replaced them but the language was retained. Then Aryans came and further genetic replacement and cultural retention…lol

        2. Iran did not say that it is an Iran HG haplogroup so you are asking the wrong person to reinforce that argument. I suspect that if H was not introduced with the peopleing of south Asia, then it would be from some Levant Aurignacian group since that can be a point of separation for H1 and H2.

  2. i agree. i think H is probably from the west. but it’s possible it isn’t that well sorted.

    haplogroups can be weird. it seems pretty clear that R comes from a KT mutant from se eurasia that went through siberia and swept back around to india.

    1. Unreferenced Paragraphs from Wikipedia read the following about H1a.
      But anyone could’ve just made it up. Hence Asked

      “H-L901/M2939 is believed to have split from HIJK 48,500 years before present.[6] Its probable site of introduction is South Asia, since it is highly concentrated there. It seems to represent the main Y-Chromosome haplogroup of the paleolithic inhabitants of the Indian Subcontinent.”

      While Narasimhan paper found 2 H1 in swat around 1000BCE
      While H2 is levantine according to “Genomic insights into the origin of farming in the ancient Near East”

      1. H1 and H2 split really long ago and there is pretty much no H2 today in the H1 zone and pretty much no H1 in the H2 zone aside from historic era migrations. I suspect that this is a late Levant Aurignacian split.

  3. H was recently found in neolithic farmers in Spain. so i think it probably is a deep and diverse ‘west’ eurasian lineage. west asian specifically

    1. Dravidarya, can you please tell me about your ancestry percentage and ancestral background?
      Since your name contains “Dravid” and “Arya”, i am guessing that you are a Dravid/South Indian person who is Arya(n)/steppe-shifted…may be non-black non-AASI-looking ANI-shifted upper caste

      1. In light of your question, I would like to state that the word “Dravidian” and its current usage today was primarily constructed by an Irish proselytizer in the 19th century with the express intent of propagation of christianity among the people of Tirunelveli in Tamilnadu.

        The word “Dravida” itself is fully missing from any self-reference throughout two millennia of Tamil, Telugu or Kannada literature. Not a single king or chieftain from South India proclaimed themselves as of Dravidian stock. On the contrary, the greatest kings of South India called themselves with such titles as “Arya-Shironmani”and “Aryaputra”. There was never any supposed kinship, communal feelings or ownership among South Indians on any kind of “Dravidian” basis.

        But the word “Dravida” is found for the first time in the Mahabharata to refer to the southern territories. It is almost on the lines of the word “Hindu” – never invented by Indians themselves but now in usage.

        Today the word carries heavy baggage of a particular strand of political ideology in Tamilnadu that is separatist, anti-Hindu polemicist and staunchly LTTE supporting. Because of these reasons, many Tamilians disassociate from this word and stress on a Tamil identity which is much more authentic and rooted. Apart from a few politicaI leaning characters, I have never even heard any person from other states call themselves Dravidian.

        1. Ugra, those proselytisers often had an intellectual temper and finer critical faculties than the best native minds for many generations thereafter. The work they and other orientalist scholars undertook was invaluable. Our own native thinkers doubled down on a general ignorance of the histories of adjacent asia, the mediterranean world, and western europe, leaving them unequipped to say anything remotely interesting.

          1. Well, the missionaries were only standing on the shoulders of Renaissance giants. Their critical “eye” was limited to pigeon-holing and some of the earliest inspiration of Macaulay’s invective against natives.

            The Irish guy, Caldwell, I am talking about believed in creationism and wrote a 300 page volume of how it is not possible for earth to be older than 6000 years and Hindu numbers of the Yugas and the Universe were not possible. So much for “intellectual temper”

          2. ” Our own native thinkers doubled down on a general ignorance of the histories of adjacent asia, the mediterranean world, and western europe, leaving them unequipped to say anything remotely interesting.”

            I guess it says more abt the native thinkers of that region than the proselytizers. During the same time period, the same folks propagated AIT in N-India as well. Apart from commies, who one would expect to support this theories, there was no societal acceptance of this theories, unlike the Dravidian theory acceptance in the south.

          3. Standing on the shoulders of giants requires an intimacy with their ideas. I don’t find caldwell an endearing character, but his workmanlike competence produced valuable outputs that compounded in value over generations. The foundation he laid for classifying dravidian languages as of independent origin is still sound. That this is uncomfortable to some and creates a point of distinction that may or may not be politically exploited is a separate matter.

          4. Saurav, I’m not sure if we are of a similar age or not, but up until the 90’s it was absolutely common for people who hadn’t the slightest affiliation with any leftism to boast about exogenous aryan origins. Imagine seeing the jatt dna pissing contest unfolding IRL, and for the benefit of a white audience. Some rajput of khatri guy basically trying to convince a room full of people that he’s basically white, and then they look at me for confirmation and to see if i’m also self-identified that way. In fact, those of us who were “dravidian” were told absolutely nothing about it at home, it was a non-topic. But my friends and their parents would regularly reference it in drawing room banter. If anything, these people leaned hindutva. Its only quite recently that this became a politically inconvenient issue.

          5. I see the drawing room discussion of aryan origins similar to same discussion of being more upper caste supremacy talk. In my house hold even within OBC;s there is frequent discussion on how which OBC caste is actually upper and better, while how some OBCs groups are really dalits and “we don’t marry with them”.

            What i meant was if N-India politics has ever revolved around Aryans because literally everyone thinks all N-Indians were Aryans. And they were Hindus. And there is no dichotomy b/w any of them. Its only in places where the “Hindu quotient” of India is weak, only there politics regarding communism, Dravidian-ism arose.

        2. “Saurav, I’m not sure if we are of a similar age or not, but up until the 90’s it was absolutely common for people who hadn’t the slightest affiliation with any leftism to boast about exogenous aryan origins.”

          @Girmit
          I believe I am much younger than you but this was my experience through 2000s as well.

          I had uncles and grand-uncles who’d talk about Aryan invasion and I grew up assuming it was fact. None of them are remotely leftist.

          I only learnt of OIT much later in college and only got to know that there are people who are take it very seriously through BP.

      2. Oh man, your outlook of history and ethnography is so 20th/21st century! Pathetic but it is the reality as the world is dominated by the West! You’re a product of 2-3 centuries of brainwashing by Marxists/Muslims(middle easterners)/Christians(european) of Dharmic people’s. Btw, coming to your question, I have light skinned and light brown eye Coloured heritage on maternal grandmother side and paternal grandmother side( both are from feudal background) however both the paternal sides( mother’s and father’s) are dark, tall, beak nosed but they’re more like commoner background. Most of my relatives and blood relations are located in the Northern Telangana and Southern Maharashtra right smack in the Asmaka region, one of the 16 Mahajanapadas of the Ancient India.

        1. My previous reply was supposed to be for “StraightGuy” . Btw, in our region we use the word Arya/Ayya to address someone with respect. Ayya is also one of the words for father. Whenever we write letter we start with Arya or Ayya like Sir in English. If you know the concept of Prakruthi/Vikruthi then Arya is Prakruthi and Ayya is vikruthi. Vikruthi is usually corrupt/colloquial form of literary / Sanskrit words.

        2. OK. So you are most prolly ANI shifted Telegu non-Brahmin upper caste…

          @RazibKhan, how much steppe,IHG and AASI ancestry do these people have? And in which website(except BrownPundits) can i find these ancestry percentages?

          1. I think steppe ancestry is probably negligible and most probably we have IHG as some upper non-brahmin castes in Southern India have Indus related and AASI ancestry.

    1. Oh boy, another mention of Pakistan! Can’t a week go by without someone bringing up Pakistan and/or Islam? What would you all do without these topics to vent about?

      1. As for the “article” you shared, it is nothing but a screed against Islam, Qauid-e-Azam and Allama Iqbal. “Malsi” is obviously Islam. This is an anti-Pakistan piece of trash, hence the obvious appeal to Hindutvadis.

      2. Kabir, have you been living in USA since your childhood?Being outgrouped,being bullied too much,alcoholism etc can damage mental health. May be these things made you a very sensitive and reactive person.
        Dont take me wrong.

        Also, are you South/East European-passing?

        1. I did grow up in the US yes.

          I don’t think I’m particularly “sensitive or reactive”. I’m simply noticing the pattern on this forum of constantly bringing up Pakistan and/or Islam. It’s getting a bit ridiculous.

          As for the referenced article, it’s not even good satire. Spelling things backwards (“Malsi” for “Islam”) is not particularly clever.

          1. I don’t think I’m particularly “sensitive or reactive”. I’m simply noticing the pattern on this forum of constantly bringing up Pakistan and/or Islam. It’s getting a bit ridiculous.

            that pattern is true. but you are not subtle enough to understand that ronen probably shared the article with me no because it was about Pakistan but because it was about atheists living in a Muslim country.

            when you have a hammer, everything is a nail.

          2. A lot of Americans online seem to have very serious mental health issues. USA is prolly a hell disguised as heaven. People are prosperous but they dont have peace of mind…but ok leave that

            You most probably have the white skin but can you pass for South/East European?

          3. The article is not about atheists living in a Muslim country. It’s not about anything at all just a ham-handed attempt to blame Islam (or “Malsi”) for all of Pakistan’s problems. A really pathetic attempt at satire. The comments are interesting. Hindutvadis lauding him and Islamists declaring him “wajib-ul-qatal”.

            Seriously, what would happen if for one week no one was allowed to mention either Pakistan or Islam here? Would the conversation entirely dry up?

    2. +1 to the suggestion

      Have been following the guy for years now. I think Omar has mentioned him a few times in very old posts.

      1. Kunwar Khuldune Shahid has labeled Qaid-e-Azam himself an “Islamist”– a characterization that makes no sense given that the Qaid was known as the “Ambassador of Hindu-Muslim Unity”. The Qaid was a constitutional secularist all his life and the movement for Pakistan was based on safeguarding the rights of the Muslim minority of British India and not on “Islamism”.

        Someone who characterizes the Qaid thus is simply anti-Pakistan. No wonder he appeals to the right leaning Hindus on BP. This is the kind of Pakistani you all like, not those of us who believe that the Muslims of British India had the right to create a sovereign nation for ourselves, in the absence of compromise with INC.

        https://thediplomat.com/2020/07/pakistans-hinduphobia/

        1. If one goes through his Twitter, one can see that the man hates Pakistan. He never has one good word to say about it. God only knows why he still lives in the country.

          You guys have accused me of liking Arundhati Roy because she is “anti-India”. Ms. Roy is at least a Booker award winning novelist. This guy isn’t even that. Just a self-flagellating and anti-Islam Pakistani.

        2. “Seriously, what would happen if for one week no one was allowed to mention either Pakistan or Islam here? Would the conversation entirely dry up?”

          You forgot the other unspeakable topic of discussion, one that has been even more controversial. It has caused threads to be closed.

          https://en.uncyclopedia.co/wiki/Jat_people

          1. Yes, there is always the topic of which ethnicity is more White passing. Islam, Pakistan and white passing ethnicities. That’s basically what the audience here wants.

        3. Kabir, Shahid has criticised Hindutva in the past as well.

          Getting him on the podcast doesn’t mean people here are condoning his views. It is just to understand where he’s coming from.

          The whole point of having a forum like this is so that one can hear new perspectives and broaden their weltanshauung.

          “You guys have accused me of liking Arundhati Roy because she is “anti-India”.”

          I do not agree with her opinions. But I would still be curious to listen to her point of view explored deeply the way Razib, Mukunda etc do. It’s much better than fawning fangirl interviews or the confrontational stuff one sees on Times Now.

          1. Oh please. I’ll believe that “broadening our views” stuff when there is a podcast with someone who is pro-Pakistan and pro-Islam. Not going to happen.

            The only kind of Pakistani right-wing Hindus like is one who basically hates his own nation. Shahid calls the Qaid an “Islamist”, which is ridiculous. When you hate the founding father, you’re pretty close to hating the entire concept of Pakistan.

          2. “I’ll believe that “broadening our views” stuff when there is a podcast with someone who is pro-Pakistan and pro-Islam. ”

            No one is stopping you from suggesting such a person.

          3. \The only kind of Pakistani right-wing Hindus like is one who basically hates his own nation. Shahid calls the Qaid an “Islamist”, which is ridiculous. When you hate the founding father, you’re pretty close to hating the entire concept of Pakistan.\
            Please come out of labels like pro- or anti- Pakistan/Islam/India , Right Wing/Left Wing etc
            Talking of hating founding father , Jinnah was only Quaid , not ‘father’ , while Mahatma Gandhi was called Father of the Nation (India) and jolly well hated by many Indians . There are a whole bunch of people. not just some Hindutvavadis, who hate M.K.Gandhi , like Dalits, Ambedkaraites, leftists, maoists, Nobody calls them anti-Indian.
            I went thro’ the Twitter of of the man under question Shahid, and found him sensible and outspoken and has no truck with the politicized military regime . Nothing anti-Pakistani about him . Pakistan should have space for Paknationalists who don’t toe the Pakistani army narratives and keep exposing it. He is one such, very rare and endangered species. Most other non Army voices have been snuffed out

          4. Kabir

            Who would be a good guest on Browncast, someone whose views on Pakistan would enrich our knowledge.

          5. Don’t tell me to “come out of labels”. I’ll use them when they make sense.

            The Qaid was Pakistan’s founding father. Without him, there would have been no Pakistan. Hating the Qaid is equivalent to hating George Washington, Thomas Jefferson etc.

            As for “anti-India”, these days anyone who opposes any policy of Hindu Hriday Samrat is called an “anti-national”. That is the reality in your country.

            I have no problem with Shahid being against the Army or against Imran Khan or whatever. Being against a particular government is fine. But calling the Qaid an “Islamist” is unforgivable.

            As for guests on Browncast, out of 220 million people you can find many Pakistanis who neither hate their country nor their religion. Dr. Ayesha Jalal would a good example for the absolute canonical views on the Qaid and the Pakistan movement.

    1. I am all in support of my white male friends finding a brown girl! You go boy!! Break the barriers. But the problem will be from indian girl’s side as “many families in india hide their family pride in their girl’s private parts”! Girl should always get married to a guy from same caste, skin color, status etc where as a boy can even marry a buffalo if he can have babies with it!

    2. Its true, I know 3 ex-colleagues who have Asian wives (Vietnamese, Chinese). A few of my friends also know Indian women married to European men. Though, I don’t know if this is part of any broad trend.

    3. Interesting co-incidence.
      My parents just told me an old family friend’s daughter married a gora guy this week. Second such news in their social circle in the last month or so.

      In this case, the guy spent 4 months in India with the family (before the lockdown).

  4. In the newspapers we hear terms like mail-order Russian brides, Ukrainian brides, Thai/Filipino brides, etc. So, it looks like white people have no qualms against inter racial marriage , charges of racism by woke crowd notwithstanding.

    Conversely , the rush for illegal migration from Afghanistan, Pakistan or ME by young men can be due to expected free sexual selection in the west which is denied to them in their home countries

    1. They can find prostitutes easily enough, just like drugs and alcohol. They migrate for work and supposed riches, not sex.

    2. Not really. Most white people for some reason is opposed to non-white immigration. But they actually need immigrants to run their country.
      For example,
      https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20200723163216AAv76Kd

      Most righties are not fully right-wing and most lefties are not fully left-wing. And a lot of people are very racist actually.

      answers.yahoo.com can be a good place for psycho-analysis. See the most upvoted opinions by filtering. But many offensive answers and questions often get removed quickly which can lead to a false conclusion.

  5. https://www.outlookindia.com/website/story/opinion-political-collapse-of-bengals-upper-caste-bhadralok-hegemony-and-bjps-prize/357287

    Political Collapse Of Bengal’s Upper Caste ‘Bhadralok’ Hegemony And BJP’s Prize

    “This caste divide in Bengali society is responsible for the rise of the BJP in the state. Since 2012, the RSS has made great inroads by community outreach initiatives in the clusters where Dalits and other marginalised groups are concentrated.”

    A good article on Upper class/caste left VS subaltern Hindutva.

    1. The inroads that the BJP has done with castes that haven’t traditionally voted for them over the last decade is the most underestimated political story in India IMHO. You see this in UP as well, where the demise of regional parties is in large part due to this.

  6. What i meant was if N-India politics has ever revolved around Aryans because literally everyone thinks all N-Indians were Aryans. And they were Hindus. And there is no dichotomy b/w any of them. Its only in places where the “Hindu quotient” of India is weak, only there politics regarding communism, Dravidian-ism arose.

    i think you can look at it another way. more than 85% of ppl in TN are hindu and there are more xtians than muslims. perhaps it is not that hindu quotient is weak, it is that they are so secure that they can indulge in heterodox ideologies.

    1. Perhaps, i see “Hindu quotient” in a different way as to how much “Hindu-ness” pervades the politics . Is Pakistan more “Islamic” than Bangladesh, i would say, Yes. Is Turkey more Islamic than it was b4, Yes. That has less to do with personal beliefs, more to do with public religiosity like festivals etc.

      In that sense there is absolutely nothing in N-India where “Hindu-ness” does not permeate. Language, culture, ethnicity, so much so that the default mode of N-India is Hindu. Dalit-ism, Woke-ism, Communism, Regionalism, Language politics has less space to operate and they are in a sense beholden 2 religion. So much so that even caste politics which is permissive across whole of India, can be brought to heel by “Hindu-ness” . Ambedkar could convert to Buddhism in the 50s, but Mayawati still can’t/won’t.

      In that vector, S-India has stuff divorced of religion which can operate separately. In S-India, religion is one of the factor, in N-India religion is the factor, where other stuff revolve around.

      1. “Ambedkar could convert to Buddhism in the 50s, but Mayawati still can’t/won’t.”

        Mayawati plans on converting after becoming the PM since that’d have more impact.

        1. Mayawati plans on converting after becoming the PM since that’d have more impact.

          even i knew this!

          though not sure detracts from saurav’s thesis (which when he talks about it sounds like a marxist; not sure anything could dissuade him from it)

        2. Nothing like that gonna happen, since politics has changed. The most astute dalit observer has this to say abt Indian politics

          https://www.news18.com/news/opinion/opinion-bjp-rss-have-compelled-mayawati-to-do-religious-identity-politics-1556809.html

          BJP-RSS Have Compelled Mayawati To Do ‘Religious-Identity’ Politics

          And eventually

          https://www.firstpost.com/politics/bewildering-turn-of-events-whats-behind-mayawatis-refusal-to-embrace-buddhism-2734192.html

          “If she embraces Buddhism, she loses non-Dalit Hindu votes — particularly those belonging to Brahmins.

          And if she doesn’t, she would sadly find herself drifting away from the larger than life Dalit icon – Babasaheb Bhim Rao Ambedkar.

          But a practical politician that she has developed into over the years, Mayawati is aware of the three fundamental factors in politics of votes: First, more than 90 percent of Dalits in Uttar Pradesh are willfully continuing as Hindus even in face of oppression at the hands of upper castes and other backward communities. Second, she might lose her Dalit identity once she becomes a Buddhist. And third, ironically enough, the Dalits owe their existence to Manuwad and Vedic Hinduism. No Manuwad, no Daliticism. Yes, as simple as that.”

      2. Hmm. The BJP strongholds in West India are also overwhelmingly Hindu. I don’t know as much about their political history as I do about my home state though.

  7. So far China has not supported separatism in the North and East. Cant be said of India which supported and trained terrorists like the LTTE.

    Note: This report is from an Indian, Jayant Bhandari

    In Delhi, people of the northeastern part of India, who have mongoloid features, are derogatorily called “chinky.”

    It is not unusual for men in Delhi to stop their cars to proposition a random girl from the northeast for a sexual encounter, assuming her to be “loose.”

    Irrationality, superstitions and bigotry have been fertile ground in these days of Covid-19. People from the northeast have faced massive problems based on the assumption that they are carriers of the virus. They have been refused services at shops and have been thrown out by landlords.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/india-china-border-issue

    1. My Uncle was doing business in Patna.
      “Which part of China do you come from chinky?”
      Uncle “Tawang!”
      “Do they have Chicken Manchurian in Taiwan?”
      Uncle 😒😒😒

      1. I was watching a YouTube clip on Indian singing talent show few years old. On the 3 judges was a famous Bollywood actor, a Khan. One girl from Darjeeling sang ‘mera naam chin chin chu’. At the end Khan praised the girl and said you also look like Chinese . I thought that was incredibly rude and racist fro a top actor judging at a top TV show
        Casual racism and rudeness is rife in India esp north

    2. “Note: This report is from an Indian, Jayant Bhandari”

      That guy is an Ayn Rand worshipping Canadian who has significant financial interests in China. Take his geopolitical analysis with a pinch of salt.

      You can look through his Twitter. Feels like one of those ‘libertarians’ who don’t mind bending backwards when it comes to China.

      I don’t necessarily disagree with his assessment of Indian society, though.

    3. Prats, Twang

      This was an reply on FB by an upper class Sindhi, a little older than I. Lived in SL and traveled extensively.

      When this class of Indians are not even circumspect, what hope the average.

      The problem with people in Askam and other N.E. States of India is that they do not want to develop. They are unable to capitalise on their natural resources. They want help from Delhi all the time. They thrive on drug smuggling and for years supported insurgency . They bite the hand that feeds them.
      The word Chinky was used by the British and it is just a hangover. In the 60s Hong Kong newspapers use to use the word often. As far as women are concerned, they come to the cities to sell their bodies. This is because of the economic conditions. What I cannot understand is why do they not develop their own states. These states contribute nothing and want the rest of India to subsidise them. Nepal wants to have restrained relationship with India but wants to send their people to work here.
      While I admit China is economically stronger, we are resisting their aggression. We have not sold our lands or borrowed from them unlike Lanka and Philippines.
      You should try and solve the problems your country is facing. I doubt you have a solution to our problems. We have made mistakes but we are not bankrupt.

      you seem to have some sort of complex against Hindus. Maybe that is your style of racism. I don’t think you have any idea of the economic burden these states have on the rest of India. They paid us back with armed insurgency. The naxalite movement was financed by the Chinese. The murders of many businessmen in the 80s and 90s caused investors to back out. The Christians and Animists are too insignificant for Hindus to worry about them. They do not contribute anything worthwhile. The Shillong choir is just one of the many talents that you can find in India – even among Hindus. By the way, the choir use to be sponsored by the Apeejay group owned by Hindus

      Sbarr Kum: So maybe a separate state as they are not welcome in India ?

      – No. It is our land our resources. If the Assamese don’t like it, they can to take a hike. They are lucky we have supported for over 70 years. They are losing their jobs to the Bangladeshis because of their stupidity. They have got themselves deliberately classified as Schedule and backward caste in order to get government grants.

      A friend posted this link
      https://www.google.com/search?q=shillong%20chamber%20choir%20live

      My comment: Many NE Indians are Christians or Animists. Rubs the Hindoos the wrong way.

      1. Do “Hindoos” have a problem with Animists? (Genuine question)

        I would have thought ideologically Hindutva would consider them to be Hindus. And consider Christians to be outsiders.

        Orthodox Hindus would just consider both animists and Christians to be different Jatis. That have different cultural, social, religious practices.

      2. “My comment: Many NE Indians are Christians or Animists. Rubs the Hindoos the wrong way.”

        Most Indians on the streets think North Easterners are Buddhists. And most NE folks are not very outwardly religion anyway. Religion is not much of an issue. The main reasons for discrimination are:

        1. Looks – NE folks have only recently started migrating out in large numbers. So the familiarity is less. This will go away with time.
        Indian society hasn’t developed a sense of political correctness the way west has so a lot of people say names out loud bluntly.

        2. Eating habits – they are meat eaters and are generally assumed to consume unfamiliar meats like dogs etc. So vegetarians act squeamish with them.

        3. Class difference – A large number NE folks in larger cities work in the hospitality industry as waiters and servers. So white collar mainlanders treat them with disdain. I think NE folks with their work ethics have a high chance of moving up the value chain in a few generations. So this might go away as well.

        4. Gender roles – Women in NE are generally more free economically and sexually. This is unfamiliar to most mainlanders. Btw this is true of Bengali women as well and they are also often seen as more ‘available’.

  8. Dear Razib,

    I’d greatly appreciate it if you could offer your insight into these queries. I know you are an expert in this discipline, and would be privileged if you could offer your input.

    1) Is it fair to say that AASI, as we call it now, is an East Eurasian or more specifically, a South East Asian component? In other words AASI ancestry is essentially equivalent to having South East Asian ancestry, that is, it is a part of the larger sphere of East Eursian ancestry in the world?

    2) I’ve read in a paper that the early line of thought indicating that AASI was Onge or Andamanese-related was incorrect, and that it is actually more closely related to East and South East Asians, as the Indigenous South Asian Hunter-gatherers were not Onge and only had some distant relation to a common ancestor shared with the Onge. So AASI has nothing to do with Australoids/Onge/Andamanese people?

    3) Related to the above, the paper said that the Gujaratis lacked any Onge-related admixture when modeled, indicating that Onge was not a proxy for AASI. So this further proves that AASI is a form of SE Asian ancestry or East Eurasian ancestry?

    4) Finally, just like Europeans are made up of three divergent “tribes” in varying proportions i.e the ANE, WHG and EEF, what groups are South Asians made of, and do these groups/tribes making up South Asians overlap with Europeans in meaningful way?

    Greatly appreciate your thoughts. Thanks a bunch.

    1. 1) Is it fair to say that AASI, as we call it now, is an East Eurasian or more specifically, a South East Asian component? In other words AASI ancestry is essentially equivalent to having South East Asian ancestry, that is, it is a part of the larger sphere of East Eursian ancestry in the world?

      east eurasian = (northeast asian,(oceanian,(indigenous SE Asian,AASI)))

      newickish format above. the last estimates i’m hearing put aasi <-> onge divergent 35-40 K. onge are really descended from burmese hunter gatherers

      2) I’ve read in a paper that the early line of thought indicating that AASI was Onge or Andamanese-related was incorrect, and that it is actually more closely related to East and South East Asians, as the Indigenous South Asian Hunter-gatherers were not Onge and only had some distant relation to a common ancestor shared with the Onge. So AASI has nothing to do with Australoids/Onge/Andamanese people?

      if by ‘australoid’ you mean new guinea/australia ppl, the andamanese are much closer to AASI than to them, yes. see the relatedness above.

      3) Related to the above, the paper said that the Gujaratis lacked any Onge-related admixture when modeled, indicating that Onge was not a proxy for AASI. So this further proves that AASI is a form of SE Asian ancestry or East Eurasian ancestry?

      onge are diverged from AASI. presumably some groups in the NE have more recent gene flow. but on the whole, no gene flow.

      4) Finally, just like Europeans are made up of three divergent “tribes” in varying proportions i.e the ANE, WHG and EEF, what groups are South Asians made of, and do these groups/tribes making up South Asians overlap with Europeans in meaningful way?

      all these are decomposable. also, you left our steppe mediated west asian. so

      WHG = mostly villabruna + some residual goyet etc.
      EEF = mostly descend from a clade distant to villabruna + basal eurasian
      steppe = ANE + WHG + CHG
      CHG = related to villabruna clade + basal eurasian perhaps ANE?

      indians are something like CHG (iran-related) + steppe + AASI

      1. If I recall correctly, in one of your older blog posts you mention that David Reich said that the genetic difference between EEF and WHG was comparable to that between modern Europeans and Chinese.

        Considering that West Eurasians and East Eurasians split ~40-50k years ago, and
        WHG and EEF seem to be much more recently related, how is that be possible? Am I misunderstanding something?

        1. If I recall correctly, in one of your older blog posts you mention that David Reich said that the genetic difference between EEF and WHG was comparable to that between modern Europeans and Chinese.

          that was pairwise Fst, and it can inflate due to small population sizes due to increased drift.

          the EEF are minority basal eurasian. depending on estimate 10-40%. basal eurasian split off 69-80 K BP all non-africans. WHG vs. non-basal EEF probably 20K BP or so?

      2. WHG makes 2 clines, one towards ANE and one towards Goyet Aurignacian. Pure WHGs are on neither of these clines AFAIK. Villabruna is a little bit on the WHG to ANE cline due to some ANE ancestry, while El Miron and Magdalenians are on the Goyet cline due to Aurignacian ancestry.

        By pure WHGs I am referring to the central Italian and Sicilian ones.

      3. Thanks so much. Greatly appreciate your insights. I have a bunch of more queries, and I hope to hear from you if you have any time to spare in the future — would love to continue learning from a doyen of the field like yourself. Will keep in touch.

        I will be donating to your Patreon as well.

  9. Some of the guys here might enjoy this song:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LD30ChPsSs
    For ABCDs who have not spent a lot of time in motherland it has somewhat accurate depiction of what the ‘lived-experience’ is for somewhat well to do people (on vacation) in India. No over the top poverty/forced-realism and no imaginary Bollywood locales. I especially liked the few shots of my lovely Kolkata.

    For everyone else the music is good and subtitles are available. @Razib some non Bollywood Indian film music for you.

    The movie was sweet.

  10. Question for the wise ones here:
    I haven’t read the Geeta. Wasn’t exposed to it through religion (for obvious reasons) and only know of a couple famous shlokas ( karmanye ….). From what I have heard, the first half of the book is quite.philosophical and interesting, while the second half is all about Krishna and how he asserts his divinity and avers that his “sharan” should be the ultimate goal for everyone and the only path to moksha.
    Now I have a bit of an allergy to metaphysics, and also especially to divine claims (especially self centered and glorifying ones). Given this context would you recommend the Geeta? And what is the best translation for someone not religiously inclined to the message?

    1. If you are allergic to metaphysics then Geeta may not be for you just like some of the other ancient philosophies.

      When Krishna goes on his divinity, some tend to interpret it to mean as “the best” and important things to pay attention to on Earth. This is the part where he goes, “I am time, the destroyer of the worlds”.

      I am not sure of English translations but my first exposure was in Telugu that Ghantasala sang (and my grandma used to sing a more layman version). If anyone is aware of the Telugu version and knows of an equally simple and beautiful English version, I would like to know too.

    2. I thought Eknath Easwaran’s translation and commentary was good but I like yoga and spiritual stuff.

      If you are looking for completely secular / modern interpretations of Dharmic philosophy.

      https://meaningness.com/

      Is really good but it’s Madhyamaka Buddhist philosophy stripped of religion for the modern world. So it’s a different focus, but very relevant for dealing with “woke” ideology without modernist objectification.

      Haven’t come across a similar treatment for the Gita, but it’s sort of tricky, I think a lot the value of the Gita is the fact that it is part of this large epic story that draws the reader in. Rather than a condensed philosophical treatise.

  11. https://www.firstpost.com/art-and-culture/white-mughals-whitewashing-whitesplaining-the-neo-colonial-manipulation-of-our-history-by-its-self-appointed-gatekeepers-8630481.html

    “There are many reasons for this deliberate distortion and disposal of inconvenient historical facts. Firstly, white colonisers and their native compradors have a well-documented fascination with the Mughals. This is because it helps create a narrative to justify foreign rule and alien value systems – that the history of India is the history of successive invaders “civilising” the meek natives who are captives of evil, backward paganism, and who had no military, naval, or cultural achievements of their own. This explains why it was a common European fantasy during colonial times that they were rescuing Indian women from evil, patriarchal native traditions (as illustrated in Around the World in 80 Days), while hiding how British, Portuguese, and Dutch were complicit in slavery and sex trafficking, much like the Mughals they replaced and admired. The protection of this treasured narrative is also why today, we learn the long-discredited Aryan Invasion Theory in schools, but not about Rajendra Cholan and his cultural impact on our civilisational brethren in Champa, Kambuj, Ayutthaya, and Majapahit. Nor the long reign of the Ahom dynasty, the glories of Vijayanagara, the struggle for Hindavi Swarajya. Even Raja Hemchandra Vikramaditya is reduced to “Hemu”, the grocer’s son. Such civilisational awareness is seen as dangerous revivalism, which may result in self-respect among former colonial populations, which is unacceptable to the colonial master even today.”

    1. Cholas have been given the worst deal in Central books I guess.

      And tragically despite the so called Marxist consensus – what ancient and medieval Indians did on day to day basis – farming , hunting other professions and eating habits an other habits are woefully underrepresented.
      Pros n Cons of medieval Zamindars/Vassals also not something I remember.

      1. The Time Traveller’s Guide to Medieval England is one of my favorite books. Wish there was something like that for India.

    2. I too agree with all your points. However, genetics is also now starting to contradict AMT theory; so, don’t lose hope and hold tight. Even disregarding all the acrimonious history, Indians need to start cultivating a culture of excellence and meritocracy — just like Chinese.

      There is a saying: Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift. That is why it is called the “present”.

      1. “…genetics is also now starting to contradict AMT theory…”

        %%%%%%%%%%%%

        I am hungry of the knowledge and would like to hear about some contradictions. One contradiction can actually crash the whole ‘theory’. I think rather that one positive evidence (e.g. in genetics) can confirm AMT and one negative evidence can crash OIT. I am neither AMT nor OIT (it is a play for you, local guys) but I have learnt more about this from one comment (Prat?) – I’ve heard about Aryan invasions from my grandfather and my dad and it was a fact for me, about OIT I have heard on BP.

    3. the long-discredited Aryan Invasion Theory

      Anyone who utters this phrase damages their own credibility.

      Such civilisational awareness is seen as dangerous revivalism, which may result in self-respect among former colonial populations, which is unacceptable to the colonial master even today.”

      Most of this “colonisation” is actually self-colonisation by Indians, and by Indians I really mean upper-class English speaking Westernised Indians. So a tiny sliver of the population.

  12. I made chicken biryani yesterday guys and it turned out amazing. InshaGanesha, thank the Persianized/Islamicized Turko-Mongol barbarians that have invaded India or else I would have gone hungry yesterday without the biryani!

    1. One response to Abhinav. CAA and NRC were endorsed by many senior Indian muslim leaders, including the head of the Chisti order–largest sufi order in the world.

    2. Just finished listening to Abhinav. Very, very nice. Is he coming back? I would ask him about:

      1) The Gorakhnath Sampradaaaya (of which he is chief Mahant–the equivalent of Pope) . . . this has for over a thousand years (maby more than 1.5 thousand years?) been one of the greatest and most respected Sampradaayas in the East. Abhinav described his Jati. But when he joined the Sampradaaya didn’t he become a Brahmin? And when he took Sanyaasa . . . didn’t he transcend all the Varnas . . . becoming Avarna?
      2) Many friends see Yogi Adityanath as the next PM of India after Modiji. What does Abhinav think?
      3) His thoughts about the tens of thousands of Sufis who are part of the Goraknath Sampradaaya and follow Yogi Adityanaath
      3) Kabir and other Dargahs in UP
      4) Twelvers (generally allied with Yogi Adityanath)
      5) Sixers (even more allied with Yogi Adityanath) (As far as I know . . . the Bohra subset of Sixers are not in UP in big numbers . . . is this accurate)
      6) Don’t the Sixers and Twelvers publicly talk about the 3,000 or more temples converted into mosques? Don’t they apologize for it? Didn’t the Shia petition the Supreme Court to give them the Ayodhya Mosque so that they could on their own dime build a temple for the Hindus on the property?

      Full disclosure I have a soft spot for the Sufi and Shia. 🙂

    1. I had a Sinhalese friend in my NIT-Calicut undergrad days, he said that the civil war was first started by the Sinhalese by attacking the Tamils in Colombo.

    2. DravidaArya
      This everyday engagement mirrored the wider mood. India set up secret military camps to provide arms training to the Tamil guerrilla groups, ostensibly to protect the Tamils, but primarily to ensure its own supremacy as a regional player.

      The civil war started with India training LTTE and other militants.

        1. His death occurred in unverified circumstances. But looking at all available Srilankan Tamil press sources, especially DBS Jeyaraj, it indeed appears that a lot of the top leadership was Christian. There is no authentic account of the inner circle.

          1. the bishop of jafna used to give ‘moral’ support to the boys. i had read some where that prabhakaran managed to get the ltte away from the ” upper/middle class and castes’. i am not sure as to how many ‘upper caste’ cadre were in the fiting force of ltte.

          2. @Brown – The former High Commissioner to Lanka, JN Dixit, is on record stating that Prabhakaran is a true follower of the Gita. He killed many, many fellow Tamils to pursue his cause single-mindedly. DBS Jeyaraj also stated that among his many motivations, are Chola kings (Karikalan) and Bhagat Singh. Its very probable that he tolerated and perhaps even allowed this perception to build. For one, it must have fetched him brownie points with the Norwegians.

        2. Brown and Ugra
          But looking at all available Srilankan Tamil press sources, especially DBS Jeyaraj, it indeed appears that a lot of the top leadership was Christian. There is no authentic account of the inner circle.

          Prabakarans parents were Hindus
          from Wiki Thiruvenkadam Velupillai was the District land Officer in the Ceylon Government. He came from an influential and wealthy family who owned and managed the major Hindu temples in Valvettithurai

          However, Prabakarans son was named Charles Antony and their crack brigade was named Charles Antony in memory of Seelan, who was a Catholic.

          I would guess, Prabhakaran did not care about or believe in religion.

          The top leadership was mainly Hindu, and some Catholics. As far as I know, not a single Protestant Christian. Thats because the Karaiyar Fishing community (historically mercenaries) are mixed Hindu or Catholic.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velupillai_Prabhakaran

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seelan

          Many comprehensive articles here, by DBS Jeyaraj
          https://www.google.com/search?&q=prabhakaran+dbs+jeyaraj

    3. Saurav

      As Tamils in India, we were furious at how the Indian intervention had turned out. Our anger turned inwards; it brought us to the brutal realisation that the Tamils were not only fighting the Sinhala state, but another enemy in disguise: India.

      Hmm, why didnt she and other Tamil Nationalist start a separatist war against
      India. At the very least cross over and join the fight.

      Islamist’s all over the world volunteer for ISIS, Al Qaeda etc.

      The rest is standard fare, the eternal victims, the Tamils.

      1. Maybe because the “diaspora” cares more about the homeland than the other way around. In Islam, it seems like non-Arab Muslims care more about Arab issues(Palestine, invasion of Iraq etc) than Arabs caring about Xinjiang, Kashmir etc. In the US, a lot of Irish Americans care deeply about Ireland, but the Irish seem to have a very contemptuous view of Irish Americans, dismissing them as “plastics”. I think if India was fighting the Indian Tamils, a lot more Sri Lankan Tamils would have been willing to join the fight. Just throwing in my two cents.

        1. Harry Jecs
          Maybe because the “diaspora” cares more about the homeland than the other way around.
          Yes, agree. Locals move on, diaspora remember old culture, enmities, whatever.

          I think if India was fighting the Indian Tamils, a lot more Sri Lankan Tamils would have been willing to join the fight.

          I doubt it, Sri Lankan Tamils are fairly contemptuous of Indian Tamils. They dont even lend a helping hand to Estate/India Tamils.

        2. “In Islam, it seems like non-Arab Muslims care more about Arab issues(Palestine, invasion of Iraq etc) than Arabs caring about Xinjiang, Kashmir etc. ”

          Yeah, Arab muslim>>Non arab muslim, notwithstanding whatever their current standing might be. A bit like Gangetic Hindus>> Other Hindus, as seen by how Hindus from other region flocked to Ayodhya during the ram temple movement, while the reverse is hardly true ( Sabrimala etc) .

          Hindu-quotient

    4. If the “Our” is referring to groups like Seeman, Vaiko etc, then it’s entirely correct. The 1980s were the highpoint of the Indian strategic establishment. They initiated a lot of Schumpeterian Games in our neighborhood. Some of them went on to become massive successes and some failed real bad, like burning bad.

      The LTTE chapter was basically the state trying to fix the Tamil nationalism problem within India. By channelling the collective Dravidian impulses onto an external enemy (Sinhala), they sought to diminish separatist tendencies and (this is important) to get the local Congress unit back into the good books of the Tamils. The local Congress wasn’t really doing well ever since the death of Kamaraj.

      It’s really hilarious to see Meena Kandasamy getting worked up, as if they are the Pole Star in the universe of the Indian Establishment. Somewhat like Osama feeling jilted after Russians got out of Afghanistan.

      We paid a heavy price in the assassination of Rajiv Gandhi. If not for that, the Congress would have been the premier Hindutva party today. He read the tea leaves very early on.

      1. Another person who doesn’t like the Qaid at all.

        Out of 220 million Pakistanis, you all are only drawn towards the extremely small minority that despises the Qaid. What else can one expect from right-wing Hindus? The only Pakistanis you all can accept are those self-flagellating ones who hate their country and their religion. You can’t stand those of us who believe in a sovereign Muslim-majority state.

        1. With all respect, even the western liberal commentators who have no kind word to say for Hindutva politics are rarely passing complementary judgements of Jinnah. They might not diss Jinnah as much as some Indians do (you would be surprised to see how many on the Indian Right have higher opinions of Jinnah than they do off Nehru/Gandhi) but rarely does one hear glowing compliments attributed to Jinnah which Nehru and Gandhi seem to always get.

          Personally, Kabir are you a proponent of TNT?

          1. People are free to think whatever they want about the Qaid but he was able to create a new country on the map of the world. That’s an achievement whether you like it or not, as Wolpert points out in his book on the Qaid.

            I am well aware that the Hindu Right actually agrees with The Qaid about the Two Nation Theory. After all, if you want India (or Bharat as they call it) to be a Hindu Rashtra, you presumably agree that Pakistan is an Islamic homeland. As far as the Hindu Right is concerned, the Qaid did them a favor by taking away a whole bunch of extra Muslims. It is Nehruvian secularism which is Hindutva’s enemy.

            I believe TNT was used in order to obtain concessions for British Indian Muslims. From that standpoint, it was better to argue that we were a nation and not just a religious minority. It is obviously not a factually correct theory. Otherwise, Hindus and Muslims in India could not live together as citizens of one state. But despite my views on TNT, I am happy that Pakistan exists as a sovereign Muslim-majority homeland. I am absolutely against the Hindutva pipedream of “Akhand Bharat”. 220 million Pakistanis are never going to consent to Hindu Raj.

          2. “It is obviously not a factually correct theory. Otherwise, Hindus and Muslims in India could not live together as citizens of one state. But despite my views on TNT, I am happy that Pakistan exists as a sovereign Muslim-majority homeland.”

            There is a saying in my hometown which roughly translates to “Everyone want;s a son like Bhagat Singh, but for their neighbor, not their own”, Similarly everyone wants secularism and minority rights, not for themselves, but for their neighbor.

          3. The point is that TNT was politically useful in the 1930s and 40s. It was not factually correct even then. My grandmother in Agra was not from a different “nation” than her neighbors.

            Indian nationalism under Pandit Nehru was explictly based on a rejection of TNT (while Pakistani nationalism is based on an acceptance of TNT). India was not supposed to belong to Hindus but to all Indians. This was also the argument for why India could include a Muslim-majority state like Kashmir. For Pakistan, a Muslim-majority state belongs to the Muslim homeland and hence Kashmir is the “unfinished business of Partition”. India’s argument was that the internal demographics of the state have no relevance to its status as part of the Indian nation.

            However, if India becomes a Hindu Rashtra then there is no justification for holding on to a Muslim state (except might makes right, which I don’t believe is a moral justification).

            Recognizing that TNT is problematic doesn’t mean I want to undo Pakistan. Too much water has flown under the bridge for that. Why would we want to give up our separate identity and accept minority status in a larger whole?

          4. Not even the ones who say they want to undo Pakistan, want 2 undo Pakistan.

            Just like how no Pakistani would accept a subordinate status, similarly y would any Hindutvawadi want more Muslims, then there already are in India, while simultaneously trying to push out the ones already there? Its not as if the Pakistani land is of any religious or cultural value for Hindus. Indian Punjab itself has hardly any significance for Hindus, forget Pakistan.

          5. I’ve come across a lot of people on Twitter who want to undo Pakistan. They go on and on about how it’s a fake country and Hindu land. Despite the fact that anyone with any intelligence knows both nation-states were created at the exact same time.

            I agree with you that it makes no sense why anyone on the Hindu Right would want to undo Pakistan. In fact, they should want to send all Muslims to Pakistan. How else do you get a pure Hindu Rashtra? But apparently Akhand Bharat types exist.

          6. Even for the most Akhanda Bharat types even they know they’re just being optimistic to the point of stupidity – Just they still continue to hope that a majority of Muslims of the subcontinent to de-islamize (i dont know if thats a correct term) enough to recognize and appreciate their Non Muslim past. The hope is also that subcontinental muslims share the view of history in viewing the Turko-Afghan invaders as invaders but not necessarily ideological ancestors. To this one could say that Pakistan itself is defined as the embodiment of continuity of Delhi Sultanate – Mughal Empire – but the point being definitions can change and that what one can hope.
            The reasoning that follows is if this does happen in the modern nation state of Pakistan ( for some obvious reasons Hindutva isnt much concerned with Bangladesh). If such a state could be achieved it would naturally result in deescalation of tensions and make way to something a Economic-cultural zone on the lines of Western Europe.

            Will this utopian Eco-Cultural zone be a Hindu dominated state – perhaps not. But something bound by a sense of shared history and culture (someone can say the cultures have began to diverge significantly to be remain similar).

            This kinda of Akhand Bharat (or Hindustan or india) is something even someone who identifies primarily as Liberal who is moderately anti Hindutva would hope for.

            Will that happen – InshaAllah

          7. There will be a “de-escalation of tensions” between Pakistan and India only if the issue of the Disputed Territory is solved to the satisfaction of all stakeholders. Otherwise, you can forget it. Certainly the annexation of Occupied Kashmir last year only made things worse.

            There is no need for us to “de-islamize” or to see the Mughals as “invaders”. As far as we are concerned, the Mughals were the high point of Indo-Islamic culture in South Asia. Even the fact that you all need us to “de-islamize” is incredibly offensive. Peace is not going to happen on those terms. Imagine if we said, we will only be OK with you if you totally “de-Hinduize”. I imagine you all would find that unacceptable?

          8. You dont have to agree with this position – i am merely stating that is the Endgame for Hindutva ideologues – Not making an Hindu Akhanda Bharat. This is the position espoused by RSS and co – You dont have to agree with it – and naturally most Pakistanis wont. But that is their position. And i am not sure where there are majority any takers for that in the populous.
            RSS ideal is not creating some giant medieval Hindu Rashtra. That would have even fewer takers if they say so.

            The term de-Islamise can be offensive to most muslims i understand – but that is the core argument of RSS – they arent all up in arms to reconvert all 600 million subcontinental muslims. You can disagree with this line of reasoning (even i do to a certain extent) but that is the core argument – It would do well for Liberals in India or all Pakistanis to address that argument instead of building up a Strawman of the Fantasy of Medieval Varna Vyavasthit Hindu Rashtra – Not even the fringe of the fringe wants that.

            One can argue that Indian Hindus are already de-Hinduized if that is even a term. Worship, Following of Brahminical rituals has gone down drastically in hindu society. Explicit Caste defense has gone down drastically in India – Wouldnt it be considered to be de-Hinduising ? Hindus (especially Urban) are already well and truly on the road. Modernity has enough ways of changing the courses of cultures if one just lets it do so.

  13. Brown Pundits and Readers – have anyone of you read Niall Ferguson’s work ?
    I have been watching the Crowd S3 and am very fascinated by the history of British Empire.
    Indian Leftist commentators like Tharoor and Darlymple are extremely scathing in their criticism of Niall Ferguson’s work.
    Would you recommend his books – especially The Empire ?
    If not which books on the British empire would you recommend ?

      1. Everyone comes in with a perspective. Tharoor and Ferguson at least make theirs explicit at the outset.

  14. @Milan Todorovic
    Thanks for asking. I was really hoping somebody will ask me. These are the papers:

    * Genomic History of Neolithic to Bronze Age Anatolia, Northern Levant, and Southern Caucasus https://www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-8674(20)30509-2.pdf?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0092867420305092%3Fshowall%3Dtrue
    * Discussion: Are the Origins of Indo-European Languages Explained by the Migration of the Yamnaya Culture to the West? https://www.researchgate.net/publication/318751121_Discussion_Are_the_Origins_of_Indo-European_Languages_Explained_by_the_Migration_of_the_Yamnaya_Culture_to_the_West
    * The first horse herders and the impact of early Bronze Age steppe expansions into Asia https://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6396/eaar7711

    And other links:
    * Mitanni https://www.ancient.eu/Mitanni/
    * Mitanni https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitanni.

    Steppe Theory is now on very weak footing w.r.t. genetics. Anatolia has again proven to be its Waterloo.

    Also, Serb and Vedic India share a lot of similarities, no matter where the homeland is. If you believe you are a Vedic, then you are so; that is how Vedic culture spread earlier in major parts of the world. Plus your ancestors did preserve Vedic culture — even against major odds. If you are interested, I can direct you towards becoming more acquainted with it.

    1. My assertion is that the world history was falsified especially its corner stone – the migration of so-called Slavs to Balkan. This thing has no any supporting evidence but still some morons are citing this, in order to prove that Aryans did not exist. I don’t care, AMT or OIT, as far as there is some evidence that Serbs lived in Balkan before the 7th cAC. If someone can prove that Serbs came from India to Balkan, that is fine, although so far there is no slight evidence. In 19th cAC there were a couple of old thinkers who stated exactly as OIT assertion, but since Vinca’s artefacts after the flood literally surfaced on the bank of Danube about 1900 AC almost all abandoned this theory.

      Since the Ice Age there was simply no empty timeslot for arrivals from India to Europe and Russia. OIT have no idea how and when people from India came to Balkan/Europe. They have no idea who lived in Europe for 7000 years before Yamnaya and which language was spoken. This period is almost double of the period since Yamnaya until today – 4700 years. Unlike AMT, OIT simply cannot produce one evidence. It would be very beneficial if you start researching the transition period when Aryans arrived. I don’t know if anyone did such research.

  15. Studwell’s book is mediocre as an economics book, but it is very readable because it has tons of anecdotes so it tends to hook people in. Alice Amsden’s book on East Asia is more thorough and systematic.

    A key point she makes is that the so-called “East Asian” model isn’t really East Asian at all. It has been used since the days of Alexander Hamilton, through Imperial Germany and later by Japan. Contra Western propaganda, leading Western countries didn’t develop by using free trade. This is something Ha-Joon Chang makes clear in his magisterial “kicking away the ladder” book from 2002.

    America didn’t really start to advocating free trade until it was an extremely powerful country and ahead of Western Europe on an income per head basis.

    This is why history is important, yet as Hegel quipped, the only thing we learn from history is that we don’t learn from history. Most developing countries are following a faulty development model designed to enrich the economic core of the world at the expense of the periphery.

  16. Is anyone else watching “A Suitable Boy”? The first episode was perfect, just as I imagined the book to be. Loved Maan/Saeeda Bai and the moments of Saeeda Bai singing. Kabir Durrani in cricket whites!

    Agarwal: “Holi. A Hindu festival for a Hindu nation” Protesting Muslims being shot by Hindu policemen. The whole thing is plea for Nehruvian Secularism.

    1. Alas i am in US, and can only watch once its out on Netflix. VPN didn’t work.

      I am assuming that the events are set in 50s just like the book was. If even in the 50s, things seemed to call for Nehruvian Secularism, perhaps there never was.

      1. You can watch it online. Watchserieshd.tv is one place.

        The show is set in 1951, just like the novel. But Seth was writing the novel around the time of the Ram Janmabhoomi movement and there are clear parallels in the book. The Shiva temple being built right next to the Alamgiri Mosque is one obvious example. The novel itself is a plea for Nehruvian secularism. Lata having to give up Kabir Durrani simply because he is Muslim. Firoz and Maan’s close relationship and the Nawab Sahab’s close friendship with Mahesh Kapoor despite the tense atmosphere of post-Partition India.

      2. I’ve been reading War and Peace in Modern India…was surprised to learn that Nehru actually believed his crap about secularism and interconfessional harmony, and it informed his relatively dovish foreign policy views.

        Of course Indians at large, being illiterate peasants, didn’t give a crap about high-falutin ideologies of any sort.

    2. I would have liked to watch, OTOH, I am screen-free on Sundays , no TV, PC , etc

      BTW, Kabir rejects her look like
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Suitable_Boy
      When her early morning meetings with Kabir are discovered she tries to run away with Kabir, who refuses.

      If any novel makes an overt statement like a particular ideology like Nehruvian Sec is good, that would make a poor literature

    3. I am pretty hesitant to watch A Suitable Boy.

      I really liked the book and I am worried they’d butcher it in the adaption.

      1. So far it is an extremely faithful adaptation. Everything is exactly like it is in the novel.

        Maybe a little too much emphasis on Maan/Saeeda Bai as opposed to Lata and Kabir. Tabu and Ishaan are bigger stars than the newcomers playing Lata and Kabir.

        I’m happy that the producers are not heterosexualizing Maan and Firoz. That would have upset me.

    4. I watched the first episode but will only be sticking with it as my wife likes it. I found the use of English jarring, it made it feel inauthentic. I’m surprised no one in India thought to adapt it, that I would have been interested in. I guess like in Pakistan the only thing producers like to invest in are domestic dramas with saas-bahu\husband-wife\extended family tensions.

  17. Vijayvan,

    I am intimately familiar with “A Suitable Boy” and can quote chapter and verse. You don’t need to explain the plot to me.

    It is true that Kabir refuses to run away with Lata because he wants to be in the IFS. However, he continues to pursue her throughout the novel and it is she who eventually rejects him, explictly because she knows that she cannot marry a Muslim without breaking all ties with her family. The last image we have of Kabir is him walking sadly around Brahmpur on the day of Lata’s wedding.

    One of the main themes of the novel is the need for Nehruvian Secularism. That’s why there is explictly an Alamgiri Masjid with a Shiv temple being built next to it (obviously the Babri Masjid) and later there are riots on Dussehra and Muharram. We are supposed to like the characters like Kapoor Sahab and the Nawab who manage to mantain their friendships and not like the Hindu hardliners.

    Epsisode 1 clearly puts Agarwal with his “Holi. A Hindu festival for a Hindu nation” in a bad light. Obviously I am in full favor of this since Hindutva is my enemy. Others may differ.

    1. \It is true that Kabir refuses to run away with Lata because he wants to be in the IFS. However, he continues to pursue her throughout the novel\

      When the opportunity knocks on the door , grab it with both arms; otherwise you can pursue it life long and be a tragic hero. Chicken.

    2. I’ve held off on trying to initiate any sort of contact with you ever since I started reading the Brown Pundits blog but it is clear to me that your real enemy is not Hindutva but Hinduism itself. You have disparaged Hindu Gods and sacred texts on multiple occasions and now you put down a Hindu religious festival as well. Also judging by your fascination with the fact that the main character of your favorite show is a Muslim man with a Hindu girlfriend I’d say you have the typical Muslim fetishization of non-Muslim women.

      1. You should have held off longer. You sound like an idiot.

        You know nothing about me and have no idea whether I am even interested in women at all so assuming that I “fetishize” non-Muslim women is absurd. If you knew anything about “A Suitable Boy” you would know that it is a novel written about 30 years ago. Lata doesn’t end up with Kabir but with a nice Khatri boy named Haresh Khanna (that should make you happy). In fact, in some ways the novel makes a right-wing point that Hindus and Muslims should not intermarry (it is set in 1951 after all).

        The comment about Holi is not my personal opinion but a direct quote from one of the characters in the show. And yes, the viewer is not supposed to like someone who refers to India in 1951 as a “Hindu nation”. Newsflash: It’s NOT a Hindu nation but a SECULAR State. That is what Pandit Nehru (the greatest Indian of all) intended.

        Crawl back in your hole Hindutvadi.

          1. Pandit Nehru is the founding father of the Republic of India. He led India to freedom from the British, was the first Prime Minister and established Nehruvian Secularism despite the trauma of the Partition. He believed in an India for all Indians, not just for Hindus. That is enough to make him one of the greatest (if not THE greatest) Indian ever.

            What did RSS types do during the freedom movement? Oh,that’s right: NOTHING.

          2. “What did RSS types do during the freedom movement? Oh,that’s right: NOTHING.”

            Considering that their leading light was incarcerated in Andamans for 13 odd years. Which is like 13 years more than what the entirety of what Muslim League suffered, i would say their contribution is tad bit more than Muslim League’s contribution.

            Not much but still….

          3. Quaid-e-Azam believed in constitutionalism and not in civil disobedience. That’s why no one from the Muslim League went to jail.

            “Veer” Savarkar was writing mercy petitions to the British. The Hindutva types didn’t even believe in the tricolor. Their attempts to discredit Pandit Nehru (without whom there would be no Republic of India) are beyond shameless.

        1. You’re the one who not only sounds like an idiot but is an idiot. I’m aware that the work you’re referring to is some kind of book or movie but either way I think it’s fucking stupid anti-male Hindu garbage. Also calling me a Hindutvadi is fucking hilarious considering my grandparents protected Sikhs during the 1984 genocide (that was perpetrated by the so-called “greatest Indian’s worthless grandson) and they used to teach the poor neighboring Muslim kids for free after they retired. I’m also completely opposed to Hindutva and I hate Modi, Shah, BJP, and RSS with flaming passion since I consider them to be an enemy of Hindus. Also, you’re Pakistani why are you so concerned about India being a secular nation. You’re an anti-Hindu dumbfuck for supporting Nehru who brought shoes to the inside of temples. Why are you so concerned about the Indian freedom movement? You realize in the long run nothing that Nehru or Gandhi did make any impact? If it hadn’t been for World War II India would have been conolized for another twenty years maybe.

          1. You basically accused me of “love jihad” without even knowing whether I’m straight or not. That’s peak Hindutvadi.

            I’m sure the great Vikram Seth really cares that you think ASB is “anti Hindu male garbage”. You’re probably not even capable of reading books, idiot.

            Keep digging your hole. I’m not going to engage with you or defend myself to you. I have no time for trolls who are anti Pandit Nehru. You’re not even worth taking his name. Fuck off.

          2. Kabir you are a worthless pile of shit and you will one day burn in hell for all eternity. That is the only thing about you that makes me happy. I didn’t accuse you of love jihading either you fucking moron I simply said you fetishize Hindu females. Also, I don’t care about Vikram Seth and I am more than capable of reading GOOD books, not the anti-male Hindu garbage that come out of the Nehruvian ecosystem. Nehru brought shoes into mandirs and insulted Hindu religious practices on numerous occasions. He is about as great as your worthless self is. He will not be remembered in fifty years when India becomes a Hindu country.

          3. You have already demonstrated your complete lack of literary taste. Keep digging.

            And you seem to have a real problem with reading comprehension. What makes you assume I’m even straight? Your accusation of “fetishizing” non-Muslim women is beyond ridiculous.

            Fuck off troll. I’m going to ignore you from now on.

          4. Kabir, you have no right to insult my literary taste when I have read all of Arthur Conan Doyle’s Sherlock Holmes related work as well as a lot of Sita Ram Goel stuff. Also, it is entirely possible for gay people to fetishize straight relationships and I know this because I am gay and I fetishize some straight relationships. You are living proof that my Hindu Punjabi ancestors made the right decision to stay as close to Ludhiana as possible. Who knows what could have happened if we moved to Pakistan’s Punjab. We could have been assaulted in the dead of the night by Islamist radicals such as yourself.

          5. Sita Ram Goel. Ah yes, Right wing Hindutvadi stuff. Makes sense. You called ASB “trash” hence you have NO literary taste. Is your degree in English Literature? If not, shut up.

            LOL at “Islamist radical”. You have no idea who you are speaking to. I am a Nehruvian Secularist. I challenge you to find one comment of mine over my three years on this forum where I have advocated for Sharia Law (which is what Islamists do). You won’t because there isn’t one.

          6. Kabir you’re an absolute idiot – having a degree in English literature doesn’t mean you have great literary taste or even an understanding of literature. I know people with degrees in economics who have never read Rothbard in their life. Degrees are just a thing to get away. Also Nehru himself was an Islamist according to the real greatest Indian Vallabhai Patel. By the way the fact that you a Pakistani identify as Nehruvian secularist is proof that it is bad for male hindus and India. As a Pakistani you want your country to do better than India so you want India to pick the weaker option for them. Also as a Pakistani you hate male Hindus and live to see female hindus kidnapped and raped by Islamists. You are no doubt in favor of forced conversion and rape as you are Pakistani and most of Pakistan is glad to see the faith of their ancestors destroyed. Pakistan is truly a degenerate country.

          7. Kabir you’re an absolute idiot – having a degree in English literature doesn’t mean you have great literary taste or even an understanding of literature. I know people with degrees in economics who have never read Rothbard in their life. Degrees are just a thing to get away. Also Nehru himself was an Islamist according to the real greatest Indian Vallabhai Patel. By the way the fact that you a Pakistani identify as Nehruvian secularist is proof that it is bad for male hindus and India. As a Pakistani you want your country to do better than India so you want India to pick the weaker option for them. Also as a Pakistani you hate male Hindus and live to see female hindus kidnapped and raped by Islamists. You are no doubt in favor of forced conversion and rape as you are Pakistani and most of Pakistan is glad to see the faith of their ancestors destroyed. Pakistan is truly a degenerate country.

          8. Yes of course all 220 million Pakistanis are in favor of forced conversion and rape. Please keep making stupid assumptions. Bigot.

            Again, if you had actually read ASB you would know that there is a love affair between Maan Kapoor (Hindu male) and Saeeda Bai Firozabadi (Muslim female). But of course that doesn’t fit your narrative.

            Razib, can you please ban this troll? After all this would seem to come under your heading of “don’t make stupid comments”.

          9. Kabir, you are being absolutely ridiculous I never said all 220 million Pakistanis are in favor of forced conversion because I know for a fact that there are millions of Pakistanis who are not Muslim and fear for their lives. Also, I’m not in favor of the Hindu male Muslim female relationship either because interfaith marriage is against Hinduism. Razib sir please don’t block me as I am such a big fan of yours.

          10. “You are no doubt in favor of forced conversion and rape as you are Pakistani”– Your exact words. This clearly implies that the entire population of Pakistan (all 220 million of us) are “no doubt” in favor of forced conversion and rape. Don’t try to walk back your statement now.

            If Razib “Sir” has any sense of fair play and equal standards he would recognize you as the anti-Muslim and anti-Pakistan troll that you are. Not holding my breath though.

  18. Given the first episode, “a suitable boy” is terribly made. Actually, let me rephrase. It is very well made for the white British audience, but Indians will find it jarring. A bit like how Indians find British “curry” rather inauthentic. Anyway, I haven’t made up my mind fully yet as there are 5 more episodes coming up.

    Though I must say BBC has hedged its bets with the director, the cast and the location (all Indian). One of my family friends is acting in it too.

  19. two patreon only early posts this week that are very different

    – indian bronson, right-wing indian american edgelord

    – sean p. mcarthy, far left anti-capitalist dirt-bag leftist

    (just posted bronson, mcarthy will post in a few hours)

    1. How about a Bronson vs apthik showdown?

      Jat Edgelord vs Brahmin edgelord

      The most aryans of aryans. So aryan u get to find them in Europe

  20. India is getting delivery of 5 Rafales and pro govt voices are making a lot of noise about it. Congress ecosystem is trying to revive their scam allegations ( supposedly 1670 cr per aircraft vs 560cr as per the deal that MMS was negotiating): https://twitter.com/srivatsayb/status/1287681180284760065

    Also MMS was supposedly looking to buy 120+ Rafales vs. 35 under Modi..

    What is the truth here? My starting position with Modi is to be sceptical of allegations of financial irregularities but would love to hear from more informed members here on the details/nuances..

    1. No irregularity or scam. Indians being an immature people love mudslinging and cry ‘backstab’, ‘betrayed’ etc when we get humiliated by Chinese or Pakistanis. Won’t invest in capacity building and then try to beg, bitch and bargain on cost every single time.

      https://www.sify.com/news/fact-check-are-we-really-paying-three-times-more-for-each-rafale-jet-news-columns-skdsLSaabhbce.html

      I read an article about how IAF pissed off Honeywell via lying, delays, haggling and as a result Honeywell tacitly refused to sell IAF their engines. No one has time for these endless Indian procurement dramas and IAF will pay through it’s nose for the poor reputation it has earned among OEMs.

    2. I mean MMS is heralded as the best economist PM ever, a man who couldn’t pass even 1 (yes not even 1) economic legislation in his entire tenure of 10 years. This should tell u something abt “Congress ecosystem”.

      Also as it goes in India, we have a deal on paper, and then the deal which get the goodies. Why 120+ , MMS can claim he was getting 560 Rafales for 1 crore each, since nothing came out it. And no way to either prove or disapprove it.

      And finally politically there are only 2 vectors on which Modi can realistically claim that he is better than the Congress. Since economy etc isn’t doing that well. Hindutva and Corruption. Why would he jeopardize his political career on a 2 make money on a deal, which is transparent enough for he opposition to cry horse on. Rather do in on some opaque stuff like election bonds or something.

      I would go far to say that India’s NPA problem (Malaya case a good example) is precisely not being fixed, because any deal will be seen as a sell out to Corporates, and Modi would rather win, than fix India’s banks.

      1. Good points, Bhimrao and Saurav. Largely agree.
        As far IAF’s competence, they have to be the world record holder in plane crashes during training by a long, long margin (even normalizing for the size of the airforce). Tells a lot..There was even a whole frikking movie made around it – Rang De Basanti..

        Speaking of which, there was an air of revolution, an awakening in the 2012-2014 timeframe, a Krantikari jazba among the yuvak…it seems to have dissipated as suddenly as it had appeared.. Is the BJP that much better at stanching dissent or was it manufactured/kindled/nurtured by the RSS ecosystem (even if the front soldiers were not always them and others benefited too (e.g. Kejri)) and the Congress just doesn’t have the institutional strength to do the same and can only do some noise on twitter ..

        1. or it could be that people (or youth in particular) are more happier with the BJP government than they were with MMS in his second term. Modi has done a good job delivering on the basics (Ujala, JanDhan, continuing MNREGA etc..) but the economy has only been sputtering along, and small/medium business owners have been complaining about a slowdown from the days of demonetization (a horrible self goal if there ever was one)

    1. After listening to the instrument “Wauah Wauah”, I can longer listen to this song with a straight face “The good the bad and the ugly” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enuOArEfqGo)

      I have all the songs — that you posted — as I like instrumental and orchestral music. Some songs like the following would be greatly appreciated:
      O Fortuna https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJC-_j3SnXk

      Andre Rieu is good; he has excellent stage management skills. The one that I like the best, however, is Joe Hisaishi.

      1. You probably know this AR’s one as well. This sound you may probably find somewhere in India because it originated among Dacian (Geti) shepherds, some of them reached India.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orL-w2QBiN8

        What would be your suggestion in regard – who would be The Good, The Bad and The Ugly @BP and do you agree with my above proposition?

    2. I don’t know anything regarding The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly @ BP. What would I get by arguing? I am mainly interested in talking about exciting things, namely: science, maths, engineering, programming, philosophy, technology, chess, etc. I hope that I become better at these. If you know some interesting stuff about these topics, do tell. I want to become really good at these — especially programming and mathematics — as they are necessary for career building. Don’t you think a place for this would be awesome?

      One reason I talk to you is that you are not involved in SA politics — which anyways is a waste of time. The most important topic, I think, should be: How to learn fast.

      So, let me do a survey: What kind of web platform will serve your needs? What do you find unsatisfactory? What will pique your curiosity? What will help people around you become better?

    1. “Wait RSS / Hindutva are apparently Pro-BLM?”

      Yeah. Pro-BJP news orgs like Sudhir Chawdhary have been talking on prime time about bringing down British statues and renaming places to erase the memory of ‘ghulami’ a la BLM.

      1. It’s a natural fit, and I recall someone making a compelling case for hindutva as a social movement in drawing parallels to marcus garveys idea of “negritude”.

  21. kabir’s relationship to BP is like a conservative Christian who has “same-sex attraction” who keeps going to the gay bathhouse to convert the heathen to the true faith, but always ends up sucking someone’s dick “by mistake”. of course he repents every time and says “never again will i go to the gay bathhouse and somehow find a dick in my mouth!”

    the truth is that he can’t quit us…

    1. Wow, the homophobia is really clear now.

      And I’m happy to not comment here but if people insist on mentioning Islam and/or Pakistan, I reserve the right to respond.

      1. “Wow, the homophobia is really clear now.”

        Heterophobia is a greater issue in this website. But if somebody points it out he will be instantly labelled as “homophobic”,”racist”,”xenophobic”,”Nazi”,”ISIS” etc.

        AnAn regularly makes heterophobic and homophilic posts e.g. “including LGBTQ muslims” but not “Straight Brown Muslims”. His posts are clearly heterophobic. Nobody has problem with that.
        But when a Taqiyya-practising Brown Islamist Geneticist makes a little gay joke then it is a huge offense.

        A lot of people here are prejudiced against Brown Conservative Straight Muslim Males.

        #Straight_lives_matter
        #Keep_brown_muslim_countries_brown

        1. Razib may be many things but he is the furthest thing from an “Islamist”. He’s not even a Muslim.

          There is no threat to straight lives so don’t worry about that.

          1. “Razib may be many things but he is the furthest thing from an “Islamist”. He’s not even a Muslim.”

            As a Brown Conservative Straight Muslim Male, I know Razib Khan and Taqiyya much better than a liberal who endorses homosexuality. He is the bearer(either openly or secretly) of the Brown Conservative Muslim heritage. Also, contrary to what the anti-brown “woke” Eastern media say, he IS a NON-VIOLENT Islamist.

            “There is no threat to straight lives so don’t worry about that.”

            Straight genocide is very real…specially against Brown Straight Conservative Muslim Males. Brown lands and brown cultures are being destroyed by LGBT,feminism,abortion,massive non-brown invasions,myth of brown-supremacists and self-hating brown liberals.

      2. what’s homophobic? brokeback was a great movie ennis.

        you are free to comment at this point. i just get worried when it looks like you are having a psychotic break, which doesn’t seem to be the case right now. you’re the one who claims they are never gonna read this blog because of the vapors…but u always come back.

        you can’t quit us.

        1. Your whole bathhouse metaphor was extremely distasteful if not outright homophobic.

          Since you are not a competant psychiatrist your opinion about “psychotic breaks” is neither here nor there.

          If my country or religion aren’t attacked here, I truly have zero interest in what you all say to each other.

          1. Your whole bathhouse metaphor was extremely distasteful if not outright homophobic.

            the most idiotic people are those who are bourgeois prigs AND censorious scolds on SJW grounds. don’t fucking impose your morals on other people. the problem with bathhouses was HIV. not the anonymous sex.

            If my country or religion aren’t attacked here, I truly have zero interest in what you all say to each other.

            https://www.theonion.com/why-do-all-these-homosexuals-keep-sucking-my-cock-1819584210

            ok bruce.

  22. https://indianexpress.com/article/trending/trending-in-india/arjun-ram-meghwal-bhabhi-ji-papad-can-fight-coronavirus-reactions-6521550/lite/

    “the Minister of State for Parliamentary Affairs and Heavy industries is seen talking about the ingredients of a brand called ‘Bhabhi ji papad’ and says that it helps “develop antibodies” to fight against the virus.”

    Such are our netas, this clown gets to run (into the ground) BHEL, BEML etc. Also, PM will be personally doing dramebaazi in Ayodhya.

    Talent and Priorities…

    These ‘grassroots’ people will take us ahead of China.

    1. “Such are our netas, this clown gets to run (into the ground) BHEL, BEML etc”

      TBF these companies have hardly anything to write home about, anyways. Might as well run them into the ground, since can’t sell it.

      1. Vedanta’s Agarwal (who made a fortune on Hindustan Zinc privatization) had eyes on BHEL but GoI will not privatize it while there is still time. BEML makes good train-sets (Hyundai-Rotem) and is also a viable business in private hands.

        I have friends who worked at BHEL and the impression I got was that it’s work culture is worse than even HAL, that says quite a lot.

        GoI is dragging its feet on scrapping Air India planes and selling it’s brand-rights to a toilet cleaner manufacturer even after billions sunk. I don’t understand how can GoI’s babus and netas think they can run a world class competitive business? Even super focused people barely manage to keep things together. What hope do these amateurs have?

        1. Because the plan is not to run it effectively, but to exert power and influence. On HZL i think overall GOI got a better deal than Vedanta. Vedanta overall is bleeding money, wont be surprised it joins their BFF Jindal and Essar, in India’s best run companies, on the NPA list.

          I mean HAL wanted to be a partner in Rafale deal. I would not trust HAL to manufacture a screw for my house.

          1. HAL gets some bad press rightfully. But honestly, they are the premier aerospace company in the Middle East, South and South East Asia. Their capabilities exceed the general output of several well known manufacturing countries like South Korea or Israel.

    2. It’s hard for me to fathom why the doyens of the government don’t pull out a few case studies on how ISRO works and apply similar principles and management practices to HAL and other govt. tech companies.

      1. ISRO is a cost centre, HAL is a profit centre. In fact, HAL makes higher revenues and profits than ISRO. Why would you want to turn HAL into a R&D focussed interdisciplinary organization like ISRO?

        Many BP commenters are regurgitating the low quality articles of Indian journalism. HAL has its own dynamics and set of problems. They are also in a much different class compared to their Asian peers. They are leagues ahead of any Israeli, South Korean or Australian aerospace companies.

        One commenter above was talking about “screws for home”. HAL supplies composite fasteners to Airbus for virtually their entire fleet. Next time, when you step into an Airbus, remember that a HAL manufactured structural component is part of that airframe.

        1. HAL has had a bad press from both the Airforce and the middle men for arms dealers, in fact they both are interconnected. And obviously, they are a classic sarkari organization which has its own dynamics in terms of ways of working, productivity etc.

        2. Never knew that HAL fanbois existed LOL

          Wake me up when they have indigenously produced anything world class being bought by a 3rd country. Without millions being poured plus the plum contracts it gets from the Indian Govt, it has absolutely zilch to show. Yeah perhaps we should all be thankful that they have become efficient enough to produce composite fasteners for Airbus

          https://theprint.in/defence/indian-army-ex-chief-wasnt-surprised-when-dassault-junked-hal-as-rafale-partner/160715/

          A regular Middle man (who like fought a war) , had this to say ☝️

          1. If India is in Indo-Pacific startegic alliance in earnest , it has chance to become a manufacturing and maintanance hub for modern arms and be in the supply chains that matter

          2. If HAL can even reverse engineer a Rafale (without India going back begging to Dessault for parts, like we do for Russians) or even jointly produce a world class next generation air craft (which some other country apart from us actually buys) with US companies , i would count my stars

          3. Not a fanboi, but HAL is not that bad of an organization. Both Dhruv and LCH are from HAL, all the mid life and EOL upgrades for the MiG’s and Mirages came from them. Tejas is a big leap in their capability, in spite of all the odds that Airforce and defense acquisition cartel posed to them.

            So, yes, they are not Chengdu to reverse engineer en-masse but they still have done well.

        3. “They are leagues ahead of any Israeli, South Korean or Australian aerospace companies”
          As someone who works in Aerospace and has interacted with many folks who have worked at HAL, I find this v. hard to believe. It’s known to be a sink for ambition and does a great job of centrifuging out any youth even remotely interested in working hard and progressing in their career.

          1. Forget other countries, its own country air force chief, which is like 100 percent buyers of its defense products, had this to say

            https://theprint.in/defence/could-have-built-rafale-jets-in-india-says-former-hal-chief/121465/

            “Air Chief Marshal AY Tipnis, a former IAF chief, said building Rafales in India would have been a challenging task for the HAL though not impossible with transfer of manufacturing technology from France. “The fact is HAL has not performed to the level it could have. It promises more than it can deliver and quality of work has been substandard in many cases. It has also backtracked on its promises.”

          2. Would be really interested in knowing names of companies from those countries (Aussie, S. Korea and Israel) that have a higher platform integration experience than HAL.

            Also not surprised by the comments dissing HAL. A lot of it stems from technical illiteracy and a general intent to confuse organizational issues with competence.

            In time perhaps, the average Indian will find it easier to own up to technical achievements. Once upon a time, there used to be a general disbelief about the cricketing prowess.

          3. @Ugra
            No one is technically illiterate here, most are being non-confronational.

            On manufacturing prowess:
            1) Look at the production rates, I have been hearing about deadlines missed by HAL forever, look at the wobly plywood mattress foam cutouts being used as jigs on the fighter production line. It is embarrassing. Look at the unbelievably ugly sheet-metal work on refurbished(by HAL) Russian planes.

            2) Look at the rate at which Dhruvs crash. They have crashed 19 times in last 15 years. Even Soviet helicopters are better manufactured.

            3) HAL gets to supply Airbus/Boeing etc because of compulsory offset clauses, the other beneficiary being our IT companies. And the stuff they supply is low tech anyways.

            On R&D:
            ADA not HAL designed and integrated Tejas.

            Dhruv was designed by MBB.

            Sitara trainer was a HAL project and it really showed how incompetent they are. Some American company out of Maryland is redesigning it.

            That leaves LCH, HTT-40 and LUH.

            LCH is regular swadesi jugaad, it is Dhruv in with some cosmetic surgery.
            LUH is work in progress (and light helicopter seems not to be a very difficult thing to make).
            HTT-40 is actually good, although a waste of effort and resources that should have gone into more pressing programs.

            Here is a very cool video everyone should watch of a HAL guy giving a walk around HTT-40:
            https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VI3FsHMVEec

            Now let us come to licensed builds:
            1) HAL Nagpur charges IAF about 1.5 times more money to screw up knocked down kits (due to abysmal human resource leading to unbelievable man hours per airplane) than the same plane made in Russia.
            2) In deep upgrade programs, like that of Mirages, HAL plays middle man between Thales/Dassault and IAF. It has a captive customer and plays all sorts of dirty tricks to derail competition from TATA(for Airbus 295).
            3) HAL Kanpur makes and sells a plane Do228 that no one in the world would buy at that price. Mahindra aerospace could build a cheaper plane if given a chance.

            HAL (and NAL) are a drain on national resources and must be privatized ASAP.

          4. @Ugra
            * non confrontational
            * wobbly

            Korea Aero Industries makes T-50 jets which are exported widely to paying customers. They also made heavy helicopter Surion and a turbo-trainer too. They have license produced F-16s and a bunch of other helicopters.

            Israel Aerospace Industries still makes a bunch of Gulfstream Jets. It used to be great at fighter planes before realizing that they were not worth the effort. Makes world-beating missiles, drones and what not. Most importantly, it competes and wins in open market throughout the world. IAI+Elta+Elbit+Rafael are more prolific than any other Aerospace combine other than Europeans and Americans.

            Japan’s Mitsubishi Heavy Industry makes the big and bad-ass SpaceJet and has already flown prototypes for fifth gen fighters, it (like the Koreans) also makes a very large part of Boeing/Airbus’s supply chain. Kawasaki makes P-1 and C-2 big planes while Ishikawa makes big jet engines (recently even completed building 120 kN XF-9, suck it China!)

            Anyone, absolutely anyone across the world (except maybe Indonesia, their planes suck too) who is serious about engineering humiliates us in scale and technology. It does not matter whether it is railway, automobiles, software or airplanes. We suck.

          5. Everything what Bhim said plus can HAL at least change their naming conventions in the meantime. What up with names like Tejas (sounds like a low level Shiv Sena operative) and Sitara (sounds like a model’s name in those T-Series music video) ?

          6. @Saurav

            Yaad piya ki aane lagi!- Sitara

            Also to me Tejas sounds like Tejasvi Yadav. Whenever I look at its ugly design I am reminded of Lalu’s pudgy, short offspring.

          7. @Bhimrao

            There is such a thing as defense firm ranking in the industry which allows a player wise comparison of revenues, EBITDA and sectoral shares. The fact that you are providing me anecdotes to prove your point shows that you are unaware of such metrics. Many defense firm CEOś regularly use this metric for target setting for sales teams and as a buttress point in their annual address for impact. For example, the Lockheed Martin CEO uses it in their press releases to showcase sales and revenue achievements.

            https://people.defensenews.com/top-100/

            HAL is ranked at 43 for 2019, the only Asian companies ahead of it are Elbit and Hanwha, both of which have only a marginal presence in aerospace (UAVs). They derive their primary revenue from electronics, artillery and ISR system solutions. They have never attempted to design, build, sell and maintain fighter jets/helicopters. Let me reiterate, according to the most followed defense industry watchers, HAL is a premier aerospace company next only to American, EUropean, Russian and Chinese companies.

            Israelis, South Koreans, Japanese aerospace efforts haven’t achieved anything close to what HAL has achieved in spite of having a better industrial base, higher per capita income and a larger R&D ecosystem. The reasons, I will save for another day.

            Allow me to enlighten you just a little bit more. In 2018, HAL was ranked 6 places ahead of Dassault. Reason – Dassault had a record breaking 354 strikes by unions in that financial year, affecting output. People who think HAL has a bad working culture haven’t met the French worker!!

            Inferiority complex and technical illiteracy ensures wilful ignorance of facts.

          8. “People who think HAL has a bad working culture haven’t met the French worker”

            I can’t speak for the average French factory worker but I have met graduates in aerospace from French Engineering schools (the Ecole Polytechniques) and Indians from the various IIT aerospace programmes and overall my experience was that the French had far more practical hands-on experience than the IITians.

            With the French Masters and PhD students, they can actually switch over to the civilian side for a secure career since the HQ & production centre for Airbus is based at Toulouse not far away from the Dassault factory at Biarritz. So there are greater pull factors for French engineers to remain in their country while many top-tier Indian engineers leave for R&D opportunities overseas. Even with all the strikes, the overall production capabilities for Dassault exceed that of HAL.

  23. does the lancet’s numbers of population projection make sense? indian population to be 109 crores in 2100.

    1. Sounds about right. India will hit peak population in this century and then decline. If trends continue.

    1. In the 70s- 80s Bollywood there used to be stereotypical blonde wig, desi villian supposedly from UK, much like how Russians were doing Cold war Hollywood. Almost always, his name was Robert or as he pronounced it ‘Rah-bert’. His catchline was “i don’t know what crores mean” since he only dealt in Dollars, and used to smuggle gold bars in those white colored Ambassador cars.

      Good old days

    2. i don’t know what crores means

      Very logical naming for decimal system
      Five zeroes is 1 lakh.
      Ten zeroes is a crore (koti in Sinhala).

      Similarly writing dates and address in grammatical Sinhala. Assume the same in Indian Languages.

      Date in words or Number: 2020-07-30

      Address
      Country
      City
      Street, House #
      Surname, Given name

  24. https://caravanmagazine.in/commentary/allah-baksh-sumroos-life-shows-that-indian-muslims-are-not-pakistanis-left-behind

    “ The narrative that all Muslims got together to seek India’s partition on the basis of the two-nation theory is now a few decades old. It has acquired salience again, with some hyperventilating neo-nationalists reiterating that all Muslims are traitors as they joined Muhammad Ali Jinnah and his Muslim League to divide India. These people forget that a large number of Muslims, who consciously decided to stay back, had a choice—either to leave and be Pakistanis or stay back in India and choose their homeland. Many opted for the latter. A similar choice was made by many Hindus who decided to stay back in Pakistan. However, staying back in a democratic, secular and plural India was different from opting for a regressive and sectarian Islamist Pakistan. The future of both, who stayed behind, has proved that so tellingly. “

    1. He was assassinated by Muslim League people. His nemesis, famous G M Syed was quite a character, who betrayed his people and single handed-ly destroyed his motherland (India/Sindh). At least Syed had to face his karma in this life itself.

      There were a lot of such patriotic Muslim leaders, especially from around Lucknow (non Deobandis too) who loved their motherland and fellow Indians, and tried very hard to stop this madness.

      1. Lives of Liaquat (nuff said), Suhrawardy (rioter), G M Syed (manipulator), Bhutto (nuff said), Miss Bhutto (Jihadi), Sharif (Kargil) and many-many other Pakistani leaders, and even groups like Ahmedis and tribal-Pashtuns do seem to have a tinge of poetic justice.

    2. Caravan does a fine job of ignoring reality. The 1946 elections held in the Central and United Provinces was a watershed in convincing Congress and the British that the Indian Muslims were indeed in favour of creation of Pakistan. It was for the first time India’s Muslims voted overwhelmingly for the ML, ditching Congress in the process. ML had a single point agenda – the creation of a separate Muslim state while Congress did not have any such points in its manifesto. An overwhelming 85% of Muslims voted for ML. This was the reason Jinnah had to be involved in negotiations for British withdrawal – otherwise the Muslim constituency would not be represented by Congress – they did not win their votes.

      “Bernard Waites (17 January 2012). South Asia and Africa After Independence: Post-colonialism in Historical Perspective. Palgrave Macmillan. pp. 45–. ISBN 978-0-230-35698-6. The 1946 election was, in effect, a plebiscite among Muslims on Pakistan and a mighty success for the League, which won 90 per cent of the Muslim seats.”

      When it comes to history, Indian marxists are both malicious and calculating. They will create precedents and events, where none exist and will ignore hard evidence, which exists.

        1. Thank you. You beat me to the electoral franchise argument.

          Indian Muslims are the ones whose ancestors voted with their feet against Pakistan.

        2. And what according to u non elite Muslims wanted? Perhaps they didn’t’ want partition, i presume.

          Rupa Subramanya , really? LOL

          1. “And what according to u non elite Muslims wanted? Perhaps they didn’t’ want partition, i presume.”

            That I don’t know. It’s in the realm of speculation. I am sure a large plurality or even a majority wanted a separate state.

            I was just pointing out the fallacy in using election data as revealed preference of all Muslims.

        3. If you look at the mass rallies, protests, and riots, it becomes pretty clear that support for Partition was not just an elite phenomenon.

    1. We are not equivalent. The guy is a troll who accused me of “fetishizing” non-Muslim women. He doesn’t even know my sexuality. Maan Kapoor falls in love with Saeeda Bai too. Is that “reverse love jihad” or is it OK since she’s a courtesan in any case?

      But you are right, I have no interest in further engagement with Hindutvadi trolls.

      1. I’ll get to your point about male-Hindu female-Muslim relationships in a second but let me just state with absolute finality that there is no one on Earth you will meet who hates Hindutva as much as I do. I think it’s a pussy system that has set us lightyears back in getting Ram Rajya on this planet. Hindu nationalists are stupid and as you can tell by my family history of protecting Sikhs during the genocide and teaching poor Muslim kids for free I am not for that at all. Now for your point on the male-Hindu female-Muslim relationship you mentioned… I’m not in favor of that either! I’m not saying that male-Hindus shouldn’t marry non-Hindu women but I think we should at least marry Dharmic origin women or convert non-Dharmic origin women to Hinduism as inter-faith marriage is prohibited by Manusmriti.

    2. I despise Alexander Hamilton with all my heart so please don’t even mention me in the same sentence with a man who created the crony capitalistic system that gives demagogues like Bernie Sanders an opportunity to attack the hard-working entrepreneur. Also, I’ve been lurking here for some time now and I’m shocked and how Kabir gets away with his anti-male Hindu bigotry so easily. He praises a man like Nehru who brought shoes into a Mandir. Imagine if for one second someone praised Auturk for insulting Islam he would be yelled at by Kabir. Also, Kabir (hilariously) claims that since I don’t have a degree in English literature I can’t talk about books! By this logic, everyone here who doesn’t have a degree in economics must agree with me that we should end the federal reserve!

      1. “…claims that since I don’t have a degree in English literature I can’t talk about books”

        Keep going mate.
        Asking people to ‘stay in their line’ is the last refuge of the incompetent (sorry Hari Seldon). No different from bhakts who attack Wendy Doniger for ‘not being Indian’. I hope that everyone speaks their mind about everything under the sun, the world will be a much better place for it.

        1. I agree with you that people should be allowed to share their opinions on everything under the sun but Wendy Doniger has said the Bhagwad Gita is a very poorly written book and not worthy of my respect. That being said I respect many western Indologists immensely like Koenraad Elst and Francois Gautier.

          1. Its a book of its times. If u are not really the spiritual type u would find it boring. A bit like Arthashastra, perhaps revolutionary for its times, but bot for 2day.

      2. Advik,

        I can see your trashed comment. Stopping forced conversions is a laudable goal (I have never defended forced conversions to Islam). Converting Pakistanis to Hinduism since it is the “true faith of our ancestors” is an absurd and offensive proposition. Pakistanis are the Muslims of BRITISH India and Pakistan is the Muslim homeland. No one needs to be converted to any religion.

        Are you for real? This must be a parody of a right-wing Hindu extremist.

        1. You’re beyond help calling me a Hindu extremist when I have demonstrated that I am not capable of being one due to my family heritage. I can say more but due to some weird-ass anxieties I have I won’t.

          1. Family heritage is neither here nor there. Anyone who wants to convert Pakistanis away from Islam to “Sanathana Dharma” is a Hindu extremist.

            Keep digging your grave troll. You have no idea who I am.

  25. SInce books are being discussed, has anyone read Numair Atif Choudhury’s (RIP) Babu Bangladesh?

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51244786-babu-bangladesh

    I’m around half-way through it but have had to pause reading due to a house move. It’s well written, pacy and dense but light hearted as well. The scenes during the 1971 war of Bangladesh’s independence are brutally laid out, with the Pak army massacres and genocide reported in chilling detail. But it’s more than just a recounting of sad events, it’s also esoteric and mystical in questioning the objectivity of reality. It’s joined to the earth in a way that only a desi novel can be. The wafting smell of wet earth comes through at many places when the blistering pace of the novel slows down into more contemplative moments. I’d be keen to know if anyone of the Bangladeshi readers of this blog have read it, and what they make of it.

    1. I was asking about your opinion on the content?

      In Sanskrit it is sung (not like a classical music piece though). I have known quite a few people who sing it (in very different styles) very well, mostly Brahmin but Baniyas and Yadavs too.

      Also, you should hear this, subtitles appear on screen:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XYUOYffGhw

      The following is what temple prayers might have been meant to sound like, not everyone is as gifted but I have heard quite a few good ones praying:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pobzcGOFT60

      These renditions are a little bit ‘too musical’ but if you liked them let me know and I can recommend some more must-listen stuff.

      1. Gaiea is really good. Particularly markandeya purana video.

        Siva thandava sthrotra in Bahubali was reasonably good. But nobody I found online did it well enough.

    1. Too many things in the policy, this is going to be big.

      1) It would be interesting to see if any top university will open a campus in India. Indians spend money on education(in Indian colleges) to get clear-cut monetary benefit i.e. IT company job. No matter what quality of education you give or what university’s name appears on a piece of paper it will not translate into a high starting salary because there are not enough high paying jobs in India. Maybe a few islands (like Ashoka, Flame etc) will come up.
      https://indianexpress.com/article/education/new-education-policy-2020-govt-allows-foreign-universities-to-set-up-campuses-in-india-6529446/

      2) Unified educational credit portal seems doable.

      Bunch of other things to unpack and lots to discuss, a podcast with some expert would be great.

    2. Good stuff: more focus on Indian culture, a shift towards native tongue up to class 5 at the very least.

      Bad stuff: they are trying to artificially boost gross enrollment ratio of higher ed to 50% by 2030. India has something like 45K (!) colleges and universities. There’s no need for more than maybe 1/10th that. What India lacks is focusing more on vocational and making the higher ed sector better (outside of IITs/IIMs etc). There’s also too little focus on making primary education better IMO.

      Overall, I like the cultural aspects. I dislike the obsession with hitting certain artificial thresholds/numbers for its own sake.

      1. “they are trying to artificially boost gross enrollment ratio of higher ed to 50% by 2030. ”

        This seems like fighting yesterday’s battle. Universities are becoming less relevant by the day. These targets are just going to lead to mis-allocation of resources.

        Agree that we need to focus on primary education, vocational courses, and quality of higher ed. In that order.

        “Bunch of other things to unpack and lots to discuss, a podcast with some expert would be great.”

        My suggestions would be Ashwin Mahesh or Prashant Bhattacharji (@learning_pt on Twitter)

      2. On the subject of vocational courses – looks like the policy draft says they will be available from 6th grade.

  26. Family heritage is neither here nor there. Anyone who wants to convert Pakistanis away from Islam to “Sanathana Dharma” is a Hindu extremist.

    muslims who want to convert hindus are not extremists.

    hindus who want to convert muslims are not extremists.

    stop being a moron.

    oh, wait, it’s not a choice 🙂

    1. There is no reason for anyone to convert out of any religion, unless they do so voluntarily.

      You are defending a vile Hindu troll who is on record as saying that Modi and Shah are “anti Hindu male” and don’t go far enough for him. But of course you would. The only religion that it’s OK for people to shit on is Islam. And you reserve your ire for me. It’s too much to expect fairness from you. Hindutvadis are your audience after all.

      1. I am a hundred percent against forced conversions. You’re making it seem like my trashed comment was saying that Pakistanis should be forced to convert to Hinduism which is an utter and complete fraudulent statement.

        Second of all, I am not a “vile Hindu troll” just because I think Modi and Shah don’t go far enough– I’m just a traditional Hindu not some Raita wing moron.

        Thirdly, I am completely opposed to people trashing Islam in any shape or form. If I could have been born any other religion besides Hinduism I would definitely want it to have been Islam as I appreciate the religion so much.

        Lastly, in my long time lurking here on this forum I have barely seen any real Hindutvadi comment on this blog and the Hindutvadis that Razib has on his show are Raita wing people (moderates) so it is unfair to say that Hindutavis are his real audience. That being said I do wish he was nicer to you sometimes it’s just that you insult Hinduism so god damn much that I just can’t bring myself to root for you.

        1. You basically called me a “love jihadi” without knowing the first thing about me. You are a disgusting person.

          My “insults” to Hinduism pale in comparison to people on this forum repeatedly calling the Prophet of God (peace be upon him) a “pedo”. Where is your condemnation of that? Hypocrite.

          1. I didn’t call you a love jihadi you lying poser- I merely pointed out you had a weird interest in male-Muslim female-Hindu relationships.

            I’m sorry but I haven’t really seen anyone insult your prophet on this blog (but I have seen you disparage Hindu Gods multiple times) because I mostly skim through the comments, yours are the only one that stands out to me because everyone seems to hate you, you seem to hate everyone, and you insult Hinduism constantly. All that being said let me with all the molecules in my body condemn anyone who insults the good name of your prophet. Now seeing my acts of big-heartedness I think it is incumbent on you to apologize for disparaging Hindu Gods and our sacred texts. Let’s all treat one and other fairly here.

          2. Some of us speak English as our native language. When you accuse a Muslim man of “fetishizing” non-Muslim women it is pretty clear that you are implying he is a “love jihadi”. Or is that logical implication too difficult for you to understand?
            I don’t hate everyone. I am absolutely against Hindutvadis though and I’m not going to apologize for that. I have only ever brought up Hinduism in response to attacks on Islam. Otherwise I really have zero interest in your religion. If you all don’t attack the Prophet of God (pbuh) and the Holy Quran, I won’t say anything about your gods. Clear?

          3. I just gave you my condemnation of the people who are attacking your religion. Now instead of acting like a coward and pretending you haven’t seen my post, you ought to apologize for insulting Hinduism.

          4. Kabir, you have to be the dumbest person in the history of the world. I never implied you were a love-jihadi- just that you fetishize non-Muslim women (which doesn’t equate love-jihadi in any way shape or form). You have to stop being so intellectually dishonest and apologize for insulting Hinduism. I’m opposed to Hindutva so I’m fine when people criticize it but you don’t criticize it- you criticize Hinduism.

          5. You called me an “Islamist radical” when I am a Nehruvian Secularist. You’re going to have to do a lot more apologizing.

            But then again, according to you Pandit Nehru himself was an “Islamist” so you clearly have no idea what the word means.

            Also I’m not “intellectually dishonest”. Apparently, logical implications are too difficult for you.

            Hinduism is a religion and I have no issues with it. Hindutva is a fascist political ideology and I make no bones about the fact that Hindutvadis are my enemy

          6. The only reason you call yourself a Nehruvian secularist is that you know it leaves India and more importantly Hindus in a weaker position. That being said if you really were a Nehruvian secularist (because even Nehru would want what I am about to say) you would be fighting to amend the constitution of Pakistan to make it secular and allow non-Muslims to become Prime Minister of the country. Maybe you would even be voicing your support for the Hindu Temple that Islamists are trying to stop being built in Islamabad.

            Also, it isn’t according to just me that Nehru was an Islamist but Vallabhai Patel so get your facts straight on that matter.

          7. “The only reason you call yourself…”–Ah, so you are a mind reader now as well! Amazing.

            I am a Nehruvian Secularist because I believe that countries should belong to all their citizens without distinction of religion. I am a citizen of a secular state that does that (the US). However, Pakistan has never claimed to be secular. The country was founded as a Muslim homeland. It is the right of the National Assembly to define the country’s ideology however they like–whether I personally agree with it or not. If India amends its constitution and declares itself a Hindu Rashtra that is its right as well. However, you cannot call yourselves a SECULAR state and act like a Hindu Rashtra.

            As for the Hindu temple in Islamabad, the issue was whether an Islamic state can fund non-Muslim places of worship, thereby encouraging idolotry (the greatest sin in Islam). No one was bothered by the temple being built using the Hindu community’s own money. That said someone like you who presumably is really happy that Babri was demolished should really not be lecturing anyone on secularism.

            On Sardar Patel calling Pandit Nehru an “Islamist”, that is laughable. If Pandit Nehru was an “Islamist” and Qauid-e-Azam was an “Islamist”, what was the whole fight about?

            Finally, I will not stand for being called an “Islamist radical”. Unless you have evidence that I have ever advocated for the implementation of Shariah Law (which is what Islamists do), I demand a full apology for that slur.

        2. This is the last time I am ever going to talk to you and unlike you I actually mean it!

          It doesn’t take a mind reader to figure out why you call yourself a Nehruvian secularist. By the way, you are clearly not an “American first” considering your long obsession with Pakistan outweighs how much you talk about America. If you have a problem with India acting as a Hindu Rashtra (which they aren’t) while being secular that doesn’t explain your fawning praise of Turkey which just converted the Hagia Sophia into a Mosque.

          I don’t care if Pakistan is an Islamic state just like Indonesia has a Hindu past you have to deal with Hindu temples being built on your soil.

          Sardar Patel was absolutely right about Nehru being an Islamist.

          You are insulting Islam by claiming to be offended about being called an Islamist. Islamists are practicing a beautiful ideology just like anyone else and you have no right to smear them like that.

          1. Hagia Sophia is still standing. Nothing has been done to the Christian murals. They will simply be covered during prayer times. Babri was demolished by a violent Hindu mob. Where is your condemnation of that? Hypocrite.

            Indonesia is the “Republic of Indonesia”. Pakistan is the “ISLAMIC Republic of Pakistan”. They are not comparable.

            Islam doesn’t equal Islamism (a political ideology) just as Hinduism doesn’t equal Hindutva. This is not a difficult point for a (presumably) reasonably intelligent person to understand.

    2. Thanks for the support Razib sir. I am a very big fan of yours and have a friend who likes you too! He is going to a very good law school next year.

    3. Razib sir I really like your podcasting and work in general but I think you should start getting people from the pro-Hindu camp who don’t belong to the Raita wing part of things. One kind of a good example of this is Ashish Dhar or @Infinitchy (that’s his Twitter handle) who for the past couple days has been very good on defending the traditionalist Hindu view of caste from Raita wing weirdos.

  27. Razib sir I really like your podcasting and work in general but I think you should start getting people from the pro-Hindu camp who don’t belong to the Raita wing part of things.

    what is raita?

    1. Raita is a tasty Indian dish but in the context, I was bringing it up it means non-traditional Hindus like Modi and Shah who somewhat care about pro-Hindu issues but are still pretty soft. The guy I recommended (Ashish Dhar is also known as @Infinitchy) was having debates with the Raita wing squad about Hinduism even though he is pretty Raita wing himself sometimes.

    1. There’s nothing wrong with my self-respect. I will not stand for being called an “Islamist radical”.

      Even you would have to admit that calling me either an “Islamist” or a “radical” is absurd. I make it a virtue to always be center-left, in both the US and Pakistani contexts.

      1. wow this thread has rapidly went south.
        Razib you seem pretty liberal wrt flame wars on the blog

        1. Yes, it has “gone south”. Please condemn your fellow Indian Hindu who started it by describing the fictional Lata-Kabir relationship as a “love jihad”.

  28. you react seriously to obvious trolling

    meanwhile, advik is reacting to your oversensitive izzat where you see enemies and conspiracies where there are none

    p.s. non-muslim women are great!

    1. Razib (and maybe Kabir?) I’m a pretty young guy and I’ve been thinking about going after Muslim women for some time now. Can you give me any tips? I find Muslim women to beautiful come one give me some tips on how to bag one.

      1. Muslim women cannot marry non-Muslim men without the guy converting to Islam.

        Also, you would need to change your attitude. Not too many Muslim women would be interested in a guy who thinks Modi and Shah are “too soft”.

          1. Just wow. Defiling the honor of women from the “other” community. What a disgusting and regressive mindset. And you have the gall to accuse me of “fetishizing” non-Muslim women.

            Razib, these are the kinds of vile trolls you defend?

        1. “Muslim women cannot marry non-Muslim men without the guy converting to Islam.”

          Why are you so concerned with what women do?

          I remember in the other thread you were ranting about how Hindu women were bad because they didn’t cover their breasts in the past (or that Hindu men were bad for “letting” them do so).

          You seem to have some serious issues with women and their right to do what they want. Where I live, they can be topless, they can marry non-Muslims, they can do whatever they want.

          You say you are center left in the US but center left local politicians in the US tend to support equality in terms of being able to go topless and also support marriage between people of different religious communities, including Muslim women marrying non-Muslims without any compulsion to convert.

    2. Calling me an “Islamist radical” is an offensive slur. Unless anyone can show where I have advocated for Sharia Law, I demand a full apology.

  29. {
    I agree with you that people should be allowed to share their opinions on everything under the sun but Wendy Doniger has said the Bhagwad Gita is a very poorly written book and not worthy of my respect. That being said I respect many western Indologists immensely like Koenraad Elst and Francois Gautier.
    }

    I find it really tragic that all Hindutvavadi still need a white man’s approval/scholarship to make points about Gita and Vedas and what not.
    That still separate Hindutva from Chinese nationalism or Japanese nationalism.
    Tragically that inferiority complex mindset is also shared by many on the anti hindutva left.

    {
    I agree with you that people should be allowed to share their opinions on everything under the sun but Wendy Doniger has said the Bhagwad Gita is a very poorly written book and not worthy of my respect
    }

    I have read a fair bit of Doniger – she is a bit too freudian and post modernist (dont know if i am correct for my liking) but to call her views on gita as very poorly written book and not worthy of my respect is too much of a stretch.

    Most ancient religious books are exceedingly boring and repetitive for a secular person – but most scholars dont call these books unworthy of respect – nor does Doniger in my reading

  30. Razib, these are the kinds of vile trolls you defend?

    if you left this blog he would stop trolling you.

    Defiling the honor of women from the “other” community.

    i know you’re not an honor-killing type of Muslim, but sentences like that only make sense if you are. so why do you write like that? women can have sex with who they want. circumcised or uncircumcised. he’s trolling you, and you *reacting* gives him satisfaction. you’re his puppet.

    also, didn’t he say he was gay? not sure the woman is the one who is going to feel defiled…

    finally kabir you engage in bullshit SJW terrorism a-la-guilt-by-association. i understand that your juju works in your milieu, but it does not work on me, it has never worked on me, and it will never work on me.

    it amuses me to allow you to comment here, especially when you exhibit mental stability, but understand you wander in the jahiliyya believer.

    advik, stop trolling the puppet. you are starting to foul the whole thread for others. be considerate of them. you are driving kabir into his typical mental paroxysms with your trolling.

    at least he didn’t say “wow, just wow, i can’t even!”

    1. I don’t give in to bullies.

      When someone writes “A Muslim man can have her back when I’m done with her”, it’s clear his interest is not in the Muslim woman but in defiling the honor of Muslim men by sullying “their” women. This was the logic for rapes during Partition (by both communities). It’s extremely offensive and wouldn’t be allowed on a decent blog.

      I don’t think he’s really gay either. Not that I care, but gay men don’t really “fetishize” women of any community. Something doesn’t add up.

      1. Ah, yes. The real victims of Muslim women being raped are Muslim men. In the same way that if you do a cattle raid the real victim is the farmer.

  31. It’s extremely offensive and wouldn’t be allowed on a decent blog.

    go comment on a decent blog.

    whatever a man’s motives (i know nonwhite men who have sex with white women with weird motives, and white men who date asian women for weird motives), it’s up to the woman to have sex with them or not, and make their own decision.

    no man owns her. your own communal passions are your business. her choices are conditional on her intent, not the man’s, or your interpretation.

    1. Even Gaurav called Advik’s comment “filthy”. So there’s that.

      I have no issues with women’s agency (I am a center-left liberal, being feminist is a requirement). But comments that hark back to the rapes of 1947 (and even 1971) are unacceptable.

      I can’t imagine what would have happened here if a Muslim man had made such a comment about a Hindu woman.

      1. yes i found the comment filthy – but even i get the sense he is trying wind you up trying to get under your skin.

        1. I know he’s trying to wind me up but there have be some red lines. Impugning the honor of the “other” through attacks on their women should be a red line.

          This whole thing started because he took exception to the fictional interreligious relationship between Lata Mehra and Kabir Durrani in ASB. That was the most idiotic thing I’ve come across in a while.

          1. Coming back to the suitable boy – most viewers say its not as good as the book.
            I am meanwhile waiting for it to release on Netflix India later in the year- Dont get BBC in here

          2. We don’t get BBC in Pakistan either but there are sites where it has been uploaded (watchmovies.tv) is one.

            It’s hard to trim an extremely rich and complex novel down to six hours of television. But as someone for whom this novel is basically scripture, I thought it was a faithful adaptation so far.

  32. advik, please don’t leave follow up comments to kabir.

    i am going to sleep, but kabir may go crazy overnight and leave 30 comments ranting at himself and everyone else. idk. just let him be.

    1. whom r you inviting ?
      Hindutva twitter has gone Gaga on caste/varna these couple of days. really amusing

        1. The Shankaracharya said something in defense of Varna system – either recently or an older video blew up.
          Some of the Hindutva RW – like HarshMadhusudhan or Kushal mehra moderately attacked the Shankaracharyas comments. Others from the trad side defended his comments.
          There were lot of to and fro on RW twitter for a week or so.

          Yday finally Op-India the conscience keeper of the Internet Hindus held a 3 hour debate with Harsh and some others.

          My personal views are that deeply religious hindus who follow Gita and other dharmashashtras find it difficult to reconcile Dharmic defense of Varna with modern enlightenment values

          1. I dont know what it there to 2 debate with the trads like Shankracharya et all. Bunch of useless ,powerless fools who have recently come out of their woods, basking on glory of the hard work of the Hindu right.

            Frankly the Hindu right gives them more space, and increases their visibility by debating, then they deserve.

    1. Traditional Hindus who believe in Rebirth and Karma – find it difficult to counter the Varna system’s justification based on Karma. The result is a dishonest negation of caste in eyes of the trad Hindus.
      That threat of thought still exists in the traditional Hindu circles.

      As a consequence lot of UC Hindus esp Vaishanavites find it tough to completely accept Varna as a man-made concept as many interpretations of Gita can be said to espouse Varna

      If possible discuss this issue

      1. Would you agree for evolution as the basis for exploitative capitalism? If not, there is nothing to discuss here.

        The point is: There will always be people in power; there will always be a social system; and they will always justify its existence — whether correct or not — based on what works.

    1. Oh boy, I was dreading someone posting this on the open thread (so thank you for that) because it is just the kind of thing that will draw all the Islamophobes and anti-Pakistan characters on here.

      There can be no excuse for vigilante justice. The State has done the right thing by immediately arresting the killer and charging him with premeditated murder. It is only the State that can punish people for Blasphemy and that too after following all due process.

      However, in an Islamic Republic there is absolutely no excuse for insulting the Prophet of God (peace be upon him) or for proclaiming oneself a Prophet. This is unforgivable in an Islamic society. But as I said, it is the State that must punish this and not individual vigilantes.

      Lest the Hindutvadis here get on their high horse, I will remind you that your country lynches Muslims on suspicion of beef eating. There is no room for you to lecture Pakistanis.

      1. Why is that you have to bring India in to every equation and hindus at that??
        There is no comparison between India and Pakistan in any sphere of life. Any nation that decrees death merely for talking about some rando who lived 100’s of years ago is condemned to be in dark ages. May be that’s explains Pakistan.

        1. Oh look an Islamophobic troll. You asked for it:

          The Prophet of God (peace be upon him) is not “some rando”. Muslims love him more than we love our own parents. No insults to him will be tolerated especially not in an Islamic Republic.

          On the other hand, your Sri Ramchandra is a made up person. And yet, a violent Hindu mob destroyed a minority place of worship because this fictional character was born in Ayodhya.
          You people lynch Muslims for merely being SUSPECTED of eating beef. Your country is a Hindu majoritarian hellhole. Don’t fucking lecture Pakistanis.


          1. “However, in an Islamic Republic there is absolutely no excuse for insulting the Prophet of God (peace be upon him) or for proclaiming oneself a Prophet. This is unforgivable in an Islamic society. But as I said, it is the State that must punish this and not individual vigilantes.

            kabir, i don’t know if i should engage you or not, but i will indulge you once anyway. you seem to have gone full-on internet ghazi theses days.

            look at your comments above. so what you are essentially saying is that though you disapprove of individual vigilantes committing violence in the name of religion, you have no issue if the state does so. what difference does it make to the victim?

            in fact this goes to the heart of the issue. people like you, the supposedly educated liberal muslims want their societies to remain mired in medieval mores, but they themselves want too enjoy the freedoms of liberal democratic western world. if you are so enamored by the graces of “islamic republics”, shouldn’t you be living in one? can’t you see the hypocrisy of your own position?

            remember there arose an “islamic state” in syria and iraq sometime ago. lot’s of muslims from around the world migrated to this state in the hope of living in an islamic utopia. i would rate these muslims, gullible as they were, much higher than muslims like you. at least they put their money where their mouth were.

            time to walk the talk kabir.

          2. “The Prophet of God (peace be upon him) is not “some rando”. Muslims love him more than we love our own parents. No insults to him will be tolerated especially not in an Islamic Republic.”

            and do you think that we don’t love Ram. You just said that people who insult your “prophet” should be punished, “especially in an islamic republic” (implying that it should be punished in otger places too). But then insulted lord Ram by calling him fictional so do you think that you should be “punished too” or do you believe that islam is somehow better or be judged by different standards than other religions.

            “Your country is a Hindu majoritarian hellhole. Don’t fucking lecture Pakistanis”

            You say this and yet you belong to a country in which people who dont follow the majority religion (Abdul Kalam). You cant have your cake and eat it too

          3. //Oh look an Islamophobic troll. You asked for it:
            Ok, Islamicyst. You asked for it too.

            //The Prophet of God (peace be upon him) is not “some rando”. Muslims love him more than we love our own parents. No insults to him will be tolerated especially not in an Islamic Republic.
            Doesn’t make a difference. He is a rando and if a so called modern 21st century state target and kill some one because of a perceived slight to this person, then what does it say about that person and his followers?

            //On the other hand, your Sri Ramchandra is a made up person. And yet, a violent Hindu mob destroyed a minority place of worship because this fictional character was born in Ayodhya.
            I don’t really care. If Ram is not real, then Mohammed cannot be real too. At least I don’t have that dichotomy in my mind. Both are fictional and if some one kills in the name of either one, then its regressive and plain stupid.

            //You people lynch Muslims for merely being SUSPECTED of eating beef. Your country is a Hindu majoritarian hellhole. Don’t fucking lecture Pakistanis.
            My people have not lynched anyone, in fact my people don’t care whether or not you exist. And yes, India is a Hindu majority country and TBH I don’t see Indian Muslims standing in line to get in to Islamic Republic of Pakistan, it’s the other way around. Brainwashed Pakistanis getting in to India, shows how “good” Pakistan is.

          4. I live in Pakistan. Where did you get the idea that I don’t?

            I have made it clear in no uncertain terms that I don’t approve of vigilante justice. This killer has been arrested by the very Pakistani state that you all deplore.

            In Orthodox Islam, Blasphemy is a crime against the State. It is equivalent to treason. No party in Pakistan (even the liberal PPP) will call for the Blasphemy Law to be removed only for it not be misused. It is the State that must punish this crime, but only after following due process. There is nothing inconsistent in my position. Unless you are one of those people who think that even the State has no right to insitute capital punishment. And I will remind you that there are several crimes for which the death penalty is the punishment even in the US.

          5. I guess “center left” in the Pakistani context means religious extremist in the global context?

          6. @Scorpion Eater

            “in fact this goes to the heart of the issue. people like you, the supposedly educated liberal muslims want their societies to remain mired in medieval mores, but they themselves want too enjoy the freedoms of liberal democratic western world. if you are so enamored by the graces of “islamic republics”, shouldn’t you be living in one? can’t you see the hypocrisy of your own position?”

            The answer is always the same. Western countries and India claim to be secular, so it’s ok to hold them accountable. Pakistan doesn’t pretend, so they get off scot-free being extremely backward. Western liberals feed into this because they have different standards for Islam vs others.

          7. Hoju,

            Center-left in the Pakistani context means the Pakistan People’s Party. PPP does not call for the Blasphemy Laws to be removed but only for them not to be mis-used. Governer Taseer was assassinated merely for asking for the laws not to be misused.

            As for the issue of Allah being as fictional as Ram: Yes, it’s true God is not a historical character. Whether God exists or not is a matter of religious belief.

            For the last time, the issue with Babri is not whether or not Allah exists. The issue is that a historic minority place of worship which existed when India was created in August 1947 was destroyed in a SECULAR state. If you can’t see why this is unacceptable, you’re either very stupid or disingenuous.

      2. dude, seriously
        what has to be wrong with your life for you to keep coming back here just to have the same argument 10000000 times in a row

  33. *in which people who dont follow the majority religion cant become its pm or president by your logic can you really criticize a country where the most popular president belonged to a religious minority(Abdul Kalam)

    1. You can believe what you want. It’s simply a fact that Ram is a fictional character. The Prophet of God (pbuh) was a historical figure. The only issue where Muslims and non-Muslims differ is that non-Muslims don’t consider him a Prophet.

      Pakistan has never claimed to be a secular state. The clue is in the name: ISLAMIC Republic of Pakistan. India, on the other hand, is a constitutionally SECULAR state.

      Hindutvadis have now started attaking Maulana Azad. If even someone who was against the Pakistan Movement and an exemplary “Congress Musalmaan” can be attacked, something is very wrong.
      As for Abdul Kalam, he used to read the Gita. The only kind of Muslim you all like is one who isn’t really all that Muslim.

      1. //You can believe what you want. It’s simply a fact that Ram is a fictional character. The Prophet of God (pbuh) was a historical figure. The only issue where Muslims and non-Muslims differ is that non-Muslims don’t consider him a Prophet.

        Fact corroborated, verified and ratified by who? Islamic Republic of Pakistan?

        //Pakistan has never claimed to be a secular state. The clue is in the name: ISLAMIC Republic of Pakistan. India, on the other hand, is a constitutionally SECULAR state.
        Pakistan can call themselves as Fundamental Islamic Republic too, it does not matter. When a country does not treat people of different race, color, religious denomination then its not fit to be in the 21st century.

        //As for Abdul Kalam, he used to read the Gita. The only kind of Muslim you all like is one who isn’t really all that Muslim.

        There you go, no wonder people call you an Islamist. Kalam can be a pious, practicing Muslims and can read about other religions, to claim otherwise is just plain bigotry.

        //In Orthodox Islam, Blasphemy is a crime against the State. It is equivalent to treason.
        Is there any other practicing form of Islam in the world today where blasphemy is not a crime against state?

        1. There is no reputed historian anywhere who believes that Lord Ram was real. The consensus is that he is a mythological figure. Believing Hindus can think that he’s God and that’s fine. Believing Muslims believe that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the final Messenger of God. But even non-believers and secular historians believe that he existed as historical figure in 7th century Arabia.

          Add Israel and even India to your list of country’s not fit to be in the 21st century. Muslims are certainly not treated equally in India–a constitutionally SECULAR state. It is the right of the National Assembly of Pakistan to define the ideology of the country. Your opinion is worth nothing.

          The only kind of Muslim the Hindu Right likes is one who is not actually much of a Muslim but who has “Hinduized” themselves. That’s what the reference to the Gita was about. There’s a difference between reading a book for scholarly reasons and actually considering it scripture.

      2. is reading Gita make you not a muslim in your opinion ?
        ABJ Kalam himself said he is a deeply religious muslim who followed Ramzan and prayed 5 times a day.
        So i ask again Is reading Gita an enough qualification to make someone not a muslim ?

        1. I never said that someone who reads the Gita is not a Muslim. Someone who sincerely believes in the Kalima is a Muslim. Only Allah can decide otherwise on the day of judgement.

          I myself have read the Ramayana but as Literature just like the Illiad. As a Muslim, I cannot consider it scripture.

          However, it is a fact that the BJP only likes “Hinduized” Muslims.

          1. (
            As for Abdul Kalam, he used to read the Gita. The only kind of Muslim you all like is one who isn’t really all that Muslim.
            )

            Your comment verbatim. Who isn’t really that Muslim

          2. “not all THAT Muslim” is different from not Muslim. Read carefully.

            There’s a reason that Aurangzeb Road was changed to APJ Kalam road. Aurangzeb Alamgir was considered a “bad Muslim” according to BJP and Kalam was considered a “good” Muslim.

            “Good” Muslims according to Hindutvadis are those who are subservient to the Hindu majority culture–those who know their place.

      3. What about Allah? Just as fictional as Ram. So why cry about mosques dedicated to the prayer of this fictitious character (Allah)?

  34. Exactly – no liberal from india will go while condemning vigilante lynchings of minorities.
    Kabir you cant call call yourself liberal if you feel can bring yourself to write this

    I dont want to insult either Muhammad or Ram – but if one feels afraid to while criticizing either in 21st century then one should know we are in trouble.

    While its accurate to say extremism due to Hindutva is rising in India it still isnt comparable to Pakistan (even of the 1960s) – any honest person who claims to be liberal must know that.

    1. Pakistan is trying to come out of the dark days of General Zia. In India, Hindu Hriday Samrat is bent on destroying Nehruvian Secularism.

      Even liberal Muslims are still Muslim. No Muslim has any tolerance for insults to the Prophet of God (pbuh). However, I will never defend people taking the law into their own hands.

      1. If this is the stance of Muslims who self identify as liberal dont you think the Rising Anti Islam / Muslim sentiment in the non islamic world including india (which you would call Islamophobia – the word i feel is problematic) is an INEVITABLE state of affairs –

        Even Modi supporters dont all agree that there should be laws to deem cow slaughter illegal. I am not even talking about liberal hindus just BJP/Modi supporters.

        Dont you think this unequal reaction will always lead to intra religious conflicts ?

        People like Nehru or Obama (who i greatly admire and identify with )can control or restrict this rising Anti islam sentiment only to a certain extent. And even their failures to control the rise of this Anti-Islam sentiment is a major reason for its rising in the entire world. There would be no Modi or Trump without this strong organic sentiment against an entire community.

        1. Pakistan is an ISLAMIC Republic. No laws can be made which are repugnant to Quran and Sunnah. That’s why the Blasphemy Laws are there.

          India is a SECULAR state. However, even India has laws on the books which prohibit speech which causes enmity between religious communities. Insulting the Prophet of God (pbuh) certainly falls under that.

          People who live in a particular country are bound to obey the laws of that country. Blasphemy is illegal in Pakistan.

          And people in whose country Muslims are lynched merely for their dietary choices should not be lecturing anyone.

          1. You chose to ignore this pointed question –
            (If this is the stance of Muslims who self identify as liberal dont you think the Rising Anti Islam / Muslim sentiment in the non Islamic world including India (which you would call Islamophobia – the word i feel is problematic) is an INEVITABLE state of affairs)

            All kind of shit occurs in the entire world – does that mean no well meaning individual can question another ?
            Are things which are legal moral ? In India its illegal to have more than 1 litre of liquor.

            Only if the said communities take it as insult. under that sad and vague definition anything can be sadly prevented

          2. Because you keep bringing it every now and then and hard beliefs on founding fathers and their contribution to nation building, tell me, did Jinnah envisioned and created an ISLAMIC Republic?? Or Pakistan has failed to live up to its creation ideals?

          3. Jay,

            It’s not my job to explain the entire history of Pakistan to you. But anyway:

            Quaid-e-Azam created Pakistan as a Muslim homeland not necessarily as an Islamic Republic. See the August 11 speech.

            The country was declared an Islamic Republic during the era of General Ayub and subsequently again under the PPP’s Constitution of 1973.

            Unfortunately, we now no longer live in the Qaid’s Pakistan but in General Zia’s. Just as India is no longer Pandit Nehru’s India but Hindu Hriday Samrat’s India.

          4. “People who live in a particular country are bound to obey the laws of that country”

            Kabir This is the reson you give for condoning blasphemy laws, what I want to ask you is that do you also support stuff like the french burqa ban or the so called muslim ban done by trump. If not then why? Aren’t these laws enforced by the government and not people or mobs. You might feel that these are legally right but morally wrong. If yes, then why wont you extend this to blasphemy laws or do you think they’re morally right

          5. Gaurav,

            No Islamophobia is not inevitable. It has to be stoked. Under a Hillary Clinton presidency there would have been no Muslim ban.

            Even Pandit Nehru understood that for a multi-religious India to work, Muslim sentiments could not be flouted completely. If people can freely insult the Prophet in India, there would constantly be riots, especially in the post-Partition atmosphere. So there have to be some limits on free speech. Congress banned “The Satanic Verses” (though I do think that Muslims need to learn to deal with Literature).

            Not insulting religious figures is a mark of basic respect and it shouldn’t take Blasphemy Laws to keep that from happening. But again, people have to live by the laws of the country they are in. Muslims in the US can’t do anything about people being nasty about the Prophet. The US is a secular state. Pakistan is not.

          6. Narasingha Deva,

            The US is a Secular state. Discriminating against an entire religious community can be considered unconstitutional. The law was challenged on that basis.

            France has a policy of laicite. Muslims who immigrate to France need to understand that.

            Pakistan is an Islamic Republic. No law can be made repugnant to Quran and Sunnah. Blasphemy is repugnant to Quran and Sunnah. Case closed. But these laws should not be mis-used.

      2. “Even liberal Muslims are still Muslim. No Muslim has any tolerance for insults to the Prophet of God (pbuh).”

        Sounds like “liberal” and “Muslim” are incompatible, then. It’s an oxymoron.

        1. Conservative Muslims are happy that the Blasphemy accused was murdered in court. They are hailing the murderer as a “Ghazi”. Someone from the ruling party changed his social media picture to a picture of the killer.

          Liberal Muslims like me find vigilante justice unacceptable. Only the State should be able to punish people after following all due process. The Blasphemy Laws should be reformed and harsh penalties should be instituted for those who make false accusations.


          1. “Liberal Muslims like me find vigilante justice unacceptable. Only the State should be able to punish people after following all due process. ”

            I am still trying to wrap my head around this convoluted logic. what difference does it make to a blasphemy accused whether the state hangs them by the neck, or a lone wolf vigilante shoots them in the back. either way they end up dead.

            in fact most blasphemy accused are NOT accused of insulting muhammad or his family. they usually get into trouble for far more inane things like claiming to be next prophet or messenger of god. if you remember your religious history, that’s exactly what jesus or muhammad claimed to be. so as a matter of fact, jesus or muhammad wouldn’t stand a chance in islamic republic of pakistan. they would either end up dead in the streets, or would become asylee in canada.

          2. People are not allowed to take the law in their own hands. The State is the only legitimate authority to enforce the law.

            Are you against capital punishment in the US? Blasphemy is a capital crime in Pakistan just as murder is a capital crime in many US states.

            The Prophet of God (pbuh) did not CLAIM to be a prophet. He WAS the final messenger of Allah. This is mainstream Islam. You don’t have to believe this as a non-Muslim but for Muslims anyone claiming prophethood after the Prophet of God (pbuh) is doing something unforgivable.

    1. Faisal Devji. Yet another person who doesn’t like Pakistan.

      I see the pattern.

      Dr. Ayesha Jalal is THE canonical authority on the Qaid. But you go ahead and keep finding anti- Qaid people.

      Let’s have a podcast with someone “anti-India” like the great Arundathi Roy. Is that acceptable to you all?

      1. LOL, but i have heard that Devji is perhaps the most pro jinnah/pakistan among all the earlier generation of scholars. Perhaps not Jalal level, but still. He is actually criticized in India leaning circles.

      2. I don’t agree with her on much but it would be pretty awesome if we could get someone like Arundhati Roy on the podcast.

        1. Arundhati Roy is a big fish so I doubt she will come in our pond but it would be cool to have her here. Of the anti-Hindutva popular people I think quite a few Rana Ayyub types will have interesting points to make on which India can improve.

        2. Why would Arundhati Roy come on a podcast for a website where the audience is Right-wing Hindus? She’s not crazy.

  35. Blasphemy laws have their basis in Quran right – and Kabir you say u expect Pakistanis to follow law of land. That’s ok.

    But will you continue to hold the same view if Pakistan Govn passes laws which are islamic like Jijya on non muslims ( including what Pak views as non muslims – Ahmadis)
    Would you support those laws of they become law of land ? Or oppose them as you self identity as liberal and have a liberal outlook towards the world.

    Every question I have asked is not what the Islamic republic of Pakistan would do but what you do or do not condone as a self identified liberal Muslim ( is presume educated)

    1. If I choose to live in Pakistan I have to obey the law of the land–whether I personally agree with it or not.

      It’s really as simple as that.

      I do not condone anyone taking the law into their own hands. That’s the bottom line.

      1. Kabir what are your views on the holocaust as it was conducted by the government and the nazis never claimed to not be anti semitic like pakistan doesn’t claim to be secular

        1. It doesn’t work for other ideologies. The only ideology that Western liberals will not pierce is the Islamic one. It’s a perfect and impenetrable shield for the worst kinds of atrocities you can think of. If India declared itself the Islamic Republic of India you would find Western liberals praising and justifying whatever it does.

          1. More like Hindu Republic of India.

            Muslims are only 14% of India’s population. It is not a Muslim-majority country and cannot be an Islamic Republic. But certainly, it can be a Hindu Rashtra.

          2. India is basically a soft Islamist republic because Pandit Nehru was an Islamist himself. The reason he could not create the Islamist Republic he wanted is that India had too many Hindus living in it for him to do that. The only solace I a proud Hindu get is that all his “achievements” will be wiped away by the BJP (whom I don’t like) in front of his worthless descendants’ eyes.

          3. But that won’t provide immunity from criticism from Western liberals. Christian countries, Buddhist countries, and the only Jewish country are viewed very critically. Need to go with the Islamic tag.

        2. That’s an offensive and stupid argument. The Nazis openly called Jews “vermin”. Second of all, Pakistan is not gassing people. There are no concentration camps.

          Ridiculous and completely out of proportion argument.

      2. By that logic, Martin Luther King Jr. and the other great civil rights luminaries of his time should have obeyed those disgusting and racist laws (I’m sure you’re not in favor of those laws but rather just want to keep anti-male Hindu laws on the book in Pakistan).

        1. Are you stupid? The US Constitution gave African-American men the right to vote immediately following the Civil War. The protests in the 1960s were about following the Constitution in its true spirit.

          And by the way, Blasphemy Laws in Pakistan are mostly used against other Muslims not against “male Hindus”. That’s your obsession.

          Ignoring you from now on, troll.

          1. You’re a fucking joke, Kabir. The protests of the 1960s were indeed in part about following the Constitution in its true spirit but there were many laws that were in place that limited the rights of blacks insignificant degree.

            Don’t worry just like black people got their rights Hindus in Pakistan will have equal rights to you Muslims in just a little while. In other words, you will not be able to look down upon Hindus as lower-class citizens for much longer in Pakistan. They will be able to become police officers, serve in the military, and even become Prime Minister. You can’t fight destiny.

          2. There is no prohibition on Pakistani Hindus serving in the military. An Islamic Republic is never going to have a non-Muslim Prime Minister though.

            The US is a secular state. Pakistan is an Islamic Republic. This extremely basic distinction seems to be beyond your limited intelligence.

    1. “Islam in Mid East might just face the same fate as Christianity in the West.”

      Would be interesting to look at birth rate differentials between religious and non-religious peoples in this region.

      1. Higher among the religious I imagine. But I remember Razib saying somewhere that in the 19th century secular French were concerned about the higher birth rates among the French Catholics. But in France’s case the secularizing culture negated the higher birth rate. Hopefully the same happens in Mid East.

        1. But isn’t Tunisia the outlier in North Africa Middle east ?
          Good if this devaluation of religion continues

          1. While Tunisia had the largest increase, all other North African countries including Egypt also saw in increase of 5-10% among nonreligious. Mostly due to young people. If it was just Egypt, I would have thought it was the Copts who were secularizing. But other North African countries don’t have a substantial Christian minority so it seems like its the Muslim population that is secularizing.

  36. https://thediplomat.com/2020/07/pakistans-bloodthirsty-blasphemy-law-needs-to-be-repealed/

    “In fact, for seven years, 2008-2015, Pakistan simultaneously had a moratorium on the death penalty while upholding its codified capital punishment for blasphemy against Islam. It was during this period that Pakistan saw the most high-profile victim of its blasphemy law of the past two decades, when former Punjab Governor Salmaan Taseer was assassinated by his security guard in January 2011.

    Mumtaz Qadri, the killer of Salmaan Taseer, has a shrine in Islamabad, which is frequented by, among others, Muhammad Safdar, a senior Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz (PML-N) leader and three-time Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif’s son-in-law. Qadri’s admirers also include Rai Manzoor, the managing director of the Punjab Curriculum and Textbook Board, who is currently busy banning books for their blasphemous and treasonous content.

    It is curriculum designers like Manzoor who have helped facilitate the state’s active push for Islamic radicalism in the Pakistani society by glorifying the legacy of Ilam Din, who murdered a Hindu publisher over blasphemy in 1929. Pakistan’s founding fathers Muhammad Iqbal, religiously, and Muhammad Ali Jinnah, legally, defended Ilam Din. Among those who lauded Ilam Din, along with raising funds for his defense trial and funeral was Muhammad Din Taseer – Salmaan Taseer’s father.”

    I just like the way it came full circle 🙂

    1. I wonder if Western liberals will ever wake up to the insane hypocrisy of Pakistan.

      They won’t.

      So woke they are now blind.

      1. The soft-bigotry of low expectations with is at play here.

        Applies to India as well to an extent, but even more to Pakistan.

  37. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsIk0qF0R1j4Y2QxGw33vYu3t70CAPV7X
    This is a youtube channel that covers the events of world war 2 week by week (they are currently in the 4th week of july, 1941). They have done similar stuff about ww1(different channel) and the interwar period.
    If you prefer written stuff they also have an Instagram account named ww2 real time. They post on a day to day basis. Learned a lot of stuff from it (did any of you know the US had occupied iceland on its(usa’s) independence day in 1941 – tbf Iceland was already under British occupation for some time by then as they didn’t want it to fall to Germany and it was a transfer of control)

  38. PSA for the newbie Indians on this blog: It is futile to engage Kabir and Pakthings. They are less liberal than the most right wing Indians when it comes to anything specific wrt Pakistan/India/Hindus/Dharmics/Indian culture etc (spouting off vague homilies is another matter).

    For the oldie Indians: Guys why don’t you have your energy and time. Don’t feed the trolls and the haters

    1. Who is Pakthings? I don’t think I’ve seen his posts here before. Is “Pakthings” a way to insult the user “Indthings” because if so that makes a lot of sense. He and Kabir seem to have a lot of hate in their heart for male Hindus.

  39. @Siddharth
    @Ugra
    @Saurav
    @Prats
    and other Aero/Astro/Tech people

    I have been reading on Indian Aerospace scene (mostly to find more stuff
    to belittle HAL) and the following companies caught my attention.

    Skyroot
    Agnikul
    Bellatrix Aerospace

    All these want to build a private rocket for space launches. So happy to see young Indians putting up a fight. If even one of these manage to do it I would swell with pride.

    What do you guys think can they pull it off? China had a rocket company competition where they handed out their old ballistic missiles to a team from Tsinghua university to convert into a rocket. Can India do the same? There must be quite a few old Agni-I, Agni-II lying around. What do you guys think are the chances for these companies.

    I know about ISRO SSLV but lets keep the discussion on private spacecraft companies. In college I had a Aerospace Department friend who interned with Team-Indus, although they suck but they seem to have found their little niche. But a private rocket will be so cool.

    “Mera desh badal raha hai aage badh raha hai!”

    1. The primary driver for private spaceflight research in the US and UK is the opportunity for space tourism. That is their core reason to exist. For India, ISRO has the un-enviable task of kickstarting private companies without a good and sufficient profit model. Even TeamIndus started off to aim for the Google Lunar X prize. But ISRO have already stated their aim of becoming a pure integrator (like HAL) and outsourcing all fabrication to L1 and L2 suppliers. So an Indian private company launching a private rocket is not quite realistic but they will start making almost all components for rockets.

      1. Forgive me if I sound stupid but can old Indian missiles be used as launchers? Americans and Russians do it all the time. That would be a gentler start to things for a startup(Orbital ATK now part of Northrop started out this way), anyways I suppose missiles are built to be long-lasting. The anti-ballistic missile program uses old Prithvi missiles (saw the photos).

        1. No, its not a stupid question. There is a current proposal from SFC (Strategic Forces Command) to use Agni missiles to launch satellites at short notice in the event of a war where satellite attrition takes place.

          The real problem is one of security, these missiles are heavily classified and no civilian/private sector will ever be permitted to look at the innards. Barely 6-7 countries have mastered the full ecosystem – RV, guidance, heat shielding, thrust vectoring etc.

          1. @Bhimrao
            @Ugra

            I’ve exclusively worked in software till now.

            I have some time on my hand right now and looking to explore:
            1. Aero
            2. Astro
            3. EVs

            More from a business PoV but will also need to pick up the basics of the tech.

            Would you have some resource recommendations?

          2. @Prats

            Aero:
            No clue about details, maybe manufacturing for big guys like this company: https://www.ptcil.com/
            Not many quick grab and run opportunities but I don’t know this general area.

            Astro:
            https://www.coursera.org/specializations/spacecraft-dynamics-control

            EV:
            https://www.edx.org/micromasters/chalmersx-emerging-automotive-technologies
            Buy a Nvidia Jetson and build some cute project. Go to Open AI Gym and modify some cool project.

            Too much to recommend so please narrow down and explain where your interest and relevant strengths lie.

            Some interesting links:
            http://www.x-air.in/
            https://www.zeusnumerix.com/
            https://www.planystech.com/
            https://www.astrome.co/
            https://www.atherenergy.com/

            There are a lot of others if you look around especially out of IIT K and M.

            The bottom line is first figure out how will you keep the lights on. These are difficult things to crack and even more difficult to make money on.

          3. @Prats

            “No clue about details, maybe manufacturing for big guys like this company”

            Manufacturing is pretty capital intensive. In aero I had some lightweight ideas:
            1. Urban aerial mobility is taking off in Europe and other such places. 5-10 years away in India, though Uber Elevate has started lobbying already. Flying taxis or anciliary industries can be a good biz opportunity.
            The Navi Mumbai-SoBo corridor could be a good starting place for a viable service in this sector. Flying Jio upper middle management across the bay.
            2. Drone applications – Huge potential but stuck in regulatory logjam as is usual in India. There are companies like Vimaan robotics with a lot of engineering in India but catering to foreign markets.
            3. Drone racing – gaming is becoming quite big so probably a market for this will also emerge
            4. Jet-packs – Still in the starting stages but a promising new platform. Got to figure out applications for it.

            Still thinking of other lower capex ideas. Manufacturing and all is for later once you have the need for vertical integration.

            Astro:
            I have not thought a lot on this yet. Have to get my hands on some research. One can probably start with analysing GIS images and then move down the stack over time. Or build satellites.

            Building rockets is again capital intensive.

            EVs:
            EVs are obviously the next big market in India. Lot of push for it from the top. Far too much information out there. So here the problem is to figure out where the value capture is going to happen and then execute on it. Don’t think there are too many companies in India working on fundamental areas like battery chemistry.

            I read this VC focused thesis on EVs. You guys might have views on it:
            https://www.stellarisvp.com/ev-thesis-2-0-1/

            “Too much to recommend so please narrow down and explain where your interest and relevant strengths lie.”

            Mostly interested in applying software and ML skills in these industries. Not very inclined to go deep into academic courses.

            The Edx link is helpful. I have been auditing their Intro to EV course.

  40. I just want to say that I actually really enjoyed Indian Matchmaker on Netflix. Quality high class trash TV.

  41. kabir, you are tying yourself into knots. look at some of your back to back contradictory statements.

    “Unfortunately, we now no longer live in the Qaid’s Pakistan but in General Zia’s.”

    hmm. so you think it is zia’s pakistan is an unfortunate thing.

    “Even liberal Muslims are still Muslim. No Muslim has any tolerance for insults to the Prophet of God (pbuh).”

    ok, so you like your blasphemy laws.

    but don’t you know these blasphemy laws are zia’s loving gift to pak? so why bemoan the fact that you are living in zia’s pak.

    and you still have gall to call yourself “liberal muslim”. wow. just wow.

    1. I’m not “tying myself into knots”. You are factually incorrect. The Blasphemy laws pre-date General Zia. In fact, the same section 295 is even in the Indian penal code. What General Zia did was make them more strict.

      This culture of vigilantes taking the law into their own hands is a gift of General Zia. I am totally against that.

      Even the most liberal Muslims will not stand for insults to the Prophet of God (pbuh). The PPP, which is a center-left party, has not called for the Blasphemy laws to be abolished but simply for them not to be misused.

  42. If Jinnah was alive he would’ve repented for his demented vision, either he would’ve been killed for blasphemy or hanged to death for treason. He dreamt of a nation so pure, that all its citizens will be treated equally and in reality we have the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. In a way, Pakistan is the perfect example for Expectation vs Reality meme.

    1. Bored of posting this over and over again.

      The details of the agreement reached on 24 November 1945 in the NWFP legislative Assembly between Jinnah, who was accompanied by Liaqat Ali Khan, and Pir Sahib Manki Sharif and other pirs are given by Israj Khan and Toheeda Begum in their article, ‘Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah and PirAbulHasanat of Manki Sharif’ published by the Social Science Journal of Peshawar University.
      Every law in Pakistan will be in consistency with Islamic Sharia and not repugnant to Quran and Sunnah.
      Each Bill which concern with Islamic Sharia will be presented to the President of Jamiat-ul-Asifa to check, only after the endorsement by its President will present the Bill to the constituent Assembly for further proceedings.
      Member of the Muslim League will present each and every stipulate of the Jamiat-ul-Asifain the Assembly and will try for its acceptance.
      Concerning the question that what type of Constitution Pakistan will be? Jinnah remarked in his speech:
      “..let me clear that Muslim believes in one God, one Prophet, Holy Quran and Islamic principles are the Constitution which we inherited from our Holy Prophet (PBUH) thirteen centuries before, so there will be nothing but only Quranic principles will be our Constitution. In order to achieve our goal you should vote in favour of Muslim League candidates. Regarding legislation I will say that when you elect your representatives to the Parliament they make laws in conformity of the Quran and Sunnah” (Abysn Journal of the Social Science Vol 4 no 2)

      https://dailytimes.com.pk/161085/jinnah-shariah-secularism/

      1. There are 2 sides to the coin always, isn’t it.

        “In 1944 The Ahrars made an offer to Jinnah, that provided he gives them his word that Pakistan will be run on Islamic principles they will support him in the struggle for Pakistan, Jinnah refused.

        Before Jinnah left India for Pakistan Iskandar Mirza recalls that he asked him in Delhi, ”Sir we are all agreed to leave for Pakistan; but what kind of polity are you going to have? Are you going to have an Islamic state?” and Jinnah replied. ”Nonsense, I am going to have a modern state”

        The Raja of Mahmudabad recalls that in 1941-45 he was working for Muslim League and advocating for Pakistan, his dream was that Pakistan will be an Islamic state and he comments that this frequently brought him into conflict with Jinnah and Jinnah thoroughly disproved of this idea and told him not to express them from the platform of Muslim League as the public may get the wrong idea that Jinnah shared these ideas.

        It was Jinnah’s constant refusal to make Pakistan an Islamic state that made all Mullaha and Maududis turn against him.

        ….On 13 July 1947 at a press conference in the backyard of his house at 10 Aurengzeb Road New Delhi where all newspapers were present Jinnah clearly said that all citizens of Pakistan will be treated as the same regardless of their cast, colour…religion or creed, (This is not the principle in an Islamic state run on Sharia).

        In 1948 during his visit to Dhaka he told Srish Chandra Chattopadhyaya, ”Tell your people not to be afraid and not to leave Pakistan, for Pakistan will be a democratic state where Hindus will have the same rights as Muslims”

        In his letter to Dr Khan Sahib he clearly indicated his desire to change Muslim League into National League and open to every citizen of Pakistan but mentioned that for this idea he was being attacked by mad mullahs and extremists.

        https://nation.com.pk/25-Dec-2015/jinnah-s-pakistan-islamic-state-or-secular-democracy

        //And the best of all, Jinnah’s constituent assembly speech,

        …The first observation that I would like to make is this: You will no doubt agree with me that the first duty of a government is to maintain law and order, so that the life, property and religious beliefs of its subjects are fully protected by the State.

        …Therefore, we must learn a lesson from this. You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State.

        ..We are starting in the days where there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State.

        ..Now I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State.

        http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/legislation/constituent_address_11aug1947.html

        May be he had a forked tongue, but If you go by his constituent address, which is loud and clear, he definitely didn’t envisage an Islamic Republic that treats its minorities as second citizens.

  43. now that the muricans will have a half tambram as their vp, (later p), will it be curd rice and pickle for thanksgiving dinner?

  44. US-China rivalry is spoken of mostly in Athenian-Sparta conflict – the so-called Thucydides Trap – a rising power challenges a statusquo power. usually the US writers make US as Athens , home of high culture , and Spartans as boors . Actually it was Sparta which won the Pelopenesian war.

    One article says why pick only Athens-Sparta rivalry when Asian history itself offers many of power tussels between Powers which altered their history

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/07/28/oh-god-not-the-peloponnesian-war-again/

    His list inlcudes Selecides-mauryan war in which the rising maurya empire defeated the Indo-Greeks
    Chola Naval empire which was successfully challenged by SE Asian kingdoms

    1. I do not understand the hysteria wrt China that exists in the US. China doesn’t have any real friends of import aside from Russia, and even that friendship is not as strong as many outsiders assume.

      Trump is an incompetent dotard, but he will lose the election in a landslide. Any comparisons with 2016 is laughable, the race was much narrower then.

      As a liberal imperialist regime sets in, America’s old traditional alliances will kick in. Even with all of Trump’s idiocy, Huawei has been effectively kicked out from most of the West and many anti-Chinese “investment protections” have been put to law. That’s just the start.

      China is fundamentally an isolationist country. Its people are inward-looking and quiet. It’s much less able to exert cultural influence the way the US is.

      Economically, it is still a less important country than the US and will remain so. However, you have to factor in the US’ alliances in its total power. China has nothing similar.

      Geopolitically, It doesn’t seek hegemony, only being the strongest regional power. It can’t even re-integrate a key province like Taiwan that it sees as its own. It is surrounded by US military bases. If China did the same to the US in the Caribbean we’d have a Cuban Missile Crisis 2.0.

      There are also good economic reasons why China won’t ever be as rich as the US, but for the sake of brevity, I’ll stop here.

  45. Opinions about India’s National Education Policy 2020? Higher education policies seem very American.

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