Open Thread – Brown Pundits

How are things in India right now? As many Indians now read this weblog as Americans (33% each). Mostly curious about the post-coronavirus world.

New podcast with Abhinav Prakash. More suggestions for podcast guests welcome.

One thing I had a mild disagreement with is the use of the term “genocide” in relation to what the Turkic Muslims did in the subcontinent to the Hindus. I agree that killings occurred, some of great brutality. But I am more and more convinced that the true obliteration was the cultural evisceration of public monuments and the repression of history. Perhaps a more accurate or precise term would be “cultural genocide.”

My wife suggested that we rename the Browncast the “Browncaste.” I nixed that.

Happy Birthday America!

179 thoughts on “Open Thread – Brown Pundits”

  1. More suggestions for podcast guests welcome.

    I would very much like it if you have a podcast with the twitter user armchairpseph on various topics – your differing views on Mongols and on pagans in Rome, India between 6th century AD and 13th century AD, how he looks at the role of Manu Smriti in modern India. But one needs to find the right question to force him to say something useful.

  2. This was an enlightening podcast. While a lot of what Abhinav talked about was familiar to most who align themselves with “hindutva” ideology, his caste perspectives were quite insightful. Also, the last line that BJP is the beneficiary of the caste politics in UP is quite a novel idea that I will be mulling over. Incidentally, SRCC used to be known as a Bania college when I was a student there. I wonder if that still holds true!
    Looking forward to more such academic discussions.

  3. Please invite this person for understanding traditional perspective on Vedas and Vedic society. ?

    Last time I said that you need to look for a practicing Vedic brahmin to clear many misconceptions people hold about Vedas(mostly due to unavailability of traditional commentries on Vedas). I think people on this blogsite will find his insights helpful.

    1. Yoga, do you know him personally?

      Do you think the Brown Pundits audience could handle this kind of depth?

      1. No I don’t know him but Razib has still not decided to invite him and we don’t know if he will agree or not.
        Even if he agrees there is nothing to worry about because Kiron deals with unequipped fellows on daily basis. He is quiet skilled at simplifying spiritual concepts for lay people and has good knowledge of IE linguistics. He knows what to share and what to leave.

        It’s true that subject matter of Vedas is too complex and traditionally can not be shared with uninitiated people.
        Most of people in this forum will never put any effort in understanding Vedic perspective even if swords are pointed on their neck. But I can’t stand people saying all kind of nonsense about Vedas and passing it as facts in this forum(and elsewhere).
        Razib seems like an intellectually honest person but he still thinks Vedas contain ‘Indo-European barbarism’.
        His statement makes Brahamanical tradition look ludicrous. I can give him leeway because his understanding of religion is shaped by Abrahmosphere and Indic tradition is counting it’s last breath.
        But still no one bothers to know why Brahmins despite being brain of their society will put so much effort in preserving these ancient hymns(without expecting any return) and why despite having a vast library of religious literature Vedas are still supreme scriptures for Hindus.

        Even if my suggestion doesn’t culminates I hope Razib will atleast have a look at Kiron’s answers and posts.

  4. The truth is overdue, but it is slowly coming to the surface. This 3-min reading article presents some past truths which are less known to the SA pundits and the rest of the world. One excerpt from this article:

    “Council of Europe report accused Thaci (MT: Kosovo Albanian president) and KLA operatives of human organ trafficking. The Guardian noted that the report alleged that Thaci’s inner circle “took captives across the border into Albania after the war, where a number of Serbs are said to have been murdered for their kidneys, which were sold on the black market.” The report stated that when “transplant surgeons” were “ready to operate, the [Serbian] captives were brought out of the ‘safe house’ individually, summarily executed by a KLA gunman, and their corpses transported swiftly to the operating clinic.”

    1. “Happy Birthday America!”

      Another excerpt from the above link….
      …(while waiting for new attack by Muslims on Serbs in Bosnia; thousands of Pakistani terrorists are in a standby mode):

      “After the bombing ended, Clinton assured the Serbian people that the United States and NATO agreed to be peacekeepers only “with the understanding that they would protect Serbs as well as ethnic Albanians and that they would leave when peace took hold.” In the subsequent months and years, American and NATO forces stood by as the KLA resumed its ethnic cleansing, slaughtering Serb civilians, bombing Serbian churches and oppressing any non-Muslims. Almost a quarter-million Serbs, Gypsies, Jews, and other minorities fled Kosovo after Mr. Clinton promised to protect them. By 2003, almost 70 percent of the Serbs living in Kosovo in 1999 had fled, and Kosovo was 95 percent ethnic Albanian.”

      1. Milan, sometimes I wonder if the American hostility towards Serbia is simply a continuation of the larger story of antipathy of Germanic people towards Slavic people.

        Before america’s ascendancy as the premier Anglo-Saxon power, Britain held the leadership of the English speaking world, and for centuries Britain’s entire foreign policy was directed towards containing Russian expansion. During the Crimean war they went as far as to allying with “infidel” Turks to stop the Russians from taking Istambul.

        During the WW2, Britain rebuffed multiple offers by soviet union for an alliance, till Germany practically forced their hands by attacking soviet union. Historically, British (and Germans and Americans as fellow Germanic people) just can’t seem to get along with Russians and Slavs in general. By contrast french are relatively favorably disposed towards Russians and other Slavic countries.

        What do you say?

        1. Welcome back Scorpio to fill the hole in BP comments. You missed a recent discussion about oit elephants but no drama. It is a right time for return, there are so many scorpions around.

          Good observations but, in reality, it is a bit more complex. There are some other players, too, such as Vatican, radical islam, etc. I was avoiding to write here about this because I was trying to focus only on topics directly related to SA – Euro(Serbian) connections. But, considering that this global politics reflects on SA too, I will write soon a more detailed comment.

          In brief, the politics presented in the article has roots in Aryan and pre-Aryan times. This hatred is neither against Orthodoxy (e.g. Greeks, Romanians, Bulgars are not subjected) nor against Slavics (e.g. Czechs, Slovaks, Polish), this is a specific hatred against Serbs, very similar to antisemitism. You can see some reflections every day (e.g. reactions on recent tennis tour organised by Djokovic to help lower ranked players who lost incomes due to the covid19, etc), but also in some comments here at BP.

          The paradox is that more than a half of Germans are genetically Serbs (even Hitler confessed in his book). For e.g. Prussians are 100% Serbs and the paradox is the Nazi propaganda about Germans as Aryans, because the original native Germans actually were not white. The other paradox is that white Americans who follow their ancestry, finish their trips in Vinca. The old world history is heavily falsified (it applies also on the presence, too, as you can see in the article) and I am trying to uncover some of these falsification including those related to SA. I would say that Serbia is a navel of the world history. but I think that Julian Assange gave the most concise description of all previous in an interview while he still was in Ecuadorian embassy – the future first comes to Serbia.

          Anyway, glad to see you are back to make a change, here we go, to mark this with one of your old songs:

  5. Yeah man, as an Indian, I selfishly hope for another American century.

    Especially with rise of a sophisticated totalitarian super power at our Border, India would need all the help it can get.

    1. The rise of China is fully linked to the US-Russia dynamic in the 1970’s. China’s propping up by the US and its allies (Japan, S Korea and Taiwan) via FDI, business investments and opening up to Chinese exports was the American response to Russian intransigence in Europe by creating a rival on its southern/eastern flank.

      You are wishing the very thing that created the monster in the first place. But this is geopolitics and does not imply any American ownership of Chinese actions in Tibet or Ladakh.

      The one reason that Russia continues its deep military relationship with India is its desire for a counter to China. Originally Russian help to India was to counter NATO expansion in Pakistan. Afterwards to prevent Chinese sphere of influence from spilling over into S Asia.

      Chanakya’s interlocking mandala theory will more than adequately explain the powerplay of the last 3 decades.

      1. “China’s propping up by the US and its allies (Japan, S Korea and Taiwan) via FDI, business investments and opening up to Chinese exports was the American response to Russian intransigence in Europe by creating a rival on its southern/eastern flank.”

        I would just like that what happened to China,happens to us in this 2.0 version. Just hopeful, not optimistic.

        Also i am skeptical of how much Russia wants or is able to contain China is S-Asia. Its unable to do so in its own backyard in C-Asian states. For all practical purpose Russia is a neutral party when it comes to India , China. It cannot afford to chose a side.

      2. Interesting. I had always wondered why America had such faith that China would reform politically. But this argument makes sense. Russia was seen as the head node during the Cold War, and the Americans were focused on taking out the head.

        The Chinese Communist party has proven more resilient, but the fact is that the trade relationship continues to benefit the US more.

    2. China got beat by Vietnam recently. This fear is really unjustified.

      Their technology and management is outdated. Stuff like TikTok, whose books are not open, and reportedly has never made a profit, are just a redirection of surplus, not genuine technological advancement.

      Wealth is held privately (compare their stock market cap/GDP to ours and America’s). It is not a great place to live, we just get carried away by all the infrastructure envy.

      Regarding research, it is the kind of work area where only the most elite work matters. Research is all about influence, and only a sliver of top journals and publication venues have genuine influence. China’s footprint here is smaller than India’s, and minuscule compared to the US.

      We need to have a rational discussion about China.

  6. Another guest I suggest is Professor Makarand Paranjape. After teaching in US for many years, he went back and taught in JNU. He has aligned with Hindutva as well.

  7. Can we get a young entrepreneur from India like Deepak Garg or Samay Kohli on the brown cast ?

  8. @Rohini “Another guest I suggest is Professor Makarand Paranjape.”

    Great suggestion. However, his work might be too esoteric from the general BP viewpoint, unless the interviewer zones in on a specific book. Perhaps the only one who might be reading him is Mukunda. An example topic would be to more generally discuss Vivekananda and the emergence of Hindu assertiveness.

    I would disagree with the loaded phrase “he [Parajape] has aligned with Hindutva.”

  9. @VV,
    I looked for one word description for his views and settled on Hindutva. How would you describe him?

  10. This may have been discussed before, but given the general lack of female participation on BP discussion as well as published blogs, I had some most excellent suggestions:
    1. Taking inspiration from the BJPs 33% reservation for female MPs, or from the Trudeau cabinet’s 50% female representation, no comments should be published on BP until at least 33 – 50% comments are submitted by (self-identified) females.
    2. Include the phrase “inclusion and diversity” on each blog post, regardless of the topic in order to maximize Google hits that may attract more general interest, and hence at least some are likely to be females. I genuinely believe I&D is good, but you might as well cynically ride the wave.
    3. Someone from BP should write an “opinion piece” for the WP about genetics in India, but should specifically call out opposition from Hindu chauvinists. This someone should not be Razib, in keeping consistent with the paper’s decisions to have the least qualified person write. This may backfire and instead only increase posts from current regulars, but the risk is worth it (I’ll observe from the sidelines).

    Or…maybe Brown Pundits just need some Brown Sadhvis that publish regularly. Don’t ask me for recommendations, I don’t know any (obviously).

    1. “1. Taking inspiration from the BJPs 33% reservation for female MPs, or from the Trudeau cabinet’s 50% female representation, no comments should be published on BP until at least 33 – 50% comments are submitted by (self-identified) females.”

      Don’t worry y’all. I woke up today with a bad hangover and rapid onset gender dysphoria. I’m a woman now. I’ll post enough to meet the quotas.

  11. Careful Razib, Indian “secularists” are going to hate you for saying that about the Medieval Period. Don’t you know that the age was one of harmony and syncretism? 😉

  12. Razib Ji

    That was an excellent podcast episode with Abhinav. Thanks for introducing me to different perspectives, even if I don’t 100% agree. Kudos to Abhinav as well, of course.

  13. ppl keep asking me to explain indoaryan migration from c asia to india. how/where/why?

    reason i don’t respond is that it’s perplexing to me

    1. I was wandering why you stopped responding on my questions but now I understand why. I was thinking that the reason was the elusive Nobel but, actually, it was your empathy towards the OIT young guns, although you know that it is against the common sense. You still have a chance to be the main worldwide Vinca promoter and to make your contribution to the world science. As such, you would be also repaying your debt to your r1a forefathers.

      1. lots of your comments are long, and i often don’t read long comments.

        i don’t have have ’empathy.’ i just don’t care to get into huge arguments. i’m pretty sure that the evidence will become overwhelming in the next few years so many people will defect

    2. @Razib
      I am genuinely curious about the R1a1a-Z93’s percentage in SWAT valley samples and its changes from the late bronze age to the iron age. This would help a lot of people make their mind about AMT.

  14. Abhinav is a good example of what i would call neo-Hindutva generation.

    Folks who are more interested in material objects such as politics, demography, resources etc rather than spiritual stuff like Yoga, meditation etc. This is also due to OBC-ization of Hindutva movement who have brought in their own sensibilities displacing some of the esoteric bullshit of the UCs, which had infantalized the movement for too long. Even though this stuff still dominate the movement, let see where does the balance lies.

    1. @Saurav
      Have you been following the Kanpur encounter? I never expected UP criminals to pull off such a stunt. This is Kashmir/Chattisgarh level stuff.

      If this guy is gunned down Yogi will win a lot of votes and prestige (with good reason). Can’t wait to see him dead.

        1. @Saurav
          This Raja Bhaiyaa is a very peculiar character. My father has had business dealings with him in the past (nothing criminal). My father says he is very cultured and a thorough gentleman (LoL! Indian parents and their metrics) and that he goes out of his way to help Pratapgarh people with medical treatments, marriages, village-cooperatives etc.

          When his fortress was raided the police found a lake with crocodiles whom he allegedly fed his slain opponents and enough swords/daggers to fight a medieval battle (or a riot).

          The funniest bit was when SP won the election he came out of the jail and became jail minister. Inmate to jail boss in just a few hours. It is depressing to look at UP, wtf are people doing in this place? To be honest I feel really ashamed about being from UP.

        2. About 40 years back, there was a gunfight between Provincial Armed Constabulary and regular Police I think – two wings of the security establishment of the UP state. This caused about 150 deaths. Lot of police in UP are trigger happy, and not just police. During the height of ‘dacoits’ era, police used to claim with glee we have killed hundreds of dacoits, etc. ‘Dacoit’ problem was partly solved through these dacoits getting into political parties and becoming MLAs , etc.

      1. Used to go for early morning cycle rides to Bithoor near Kanpur where that Dubey guy had his bunker.

        You could get really good ‘stuff’ over there.

        1. I have been to the general area, visited Bandi-Mata temple near the site of Dubey’s land dispute. I have almost all of my extended family there and one of my ancestral villages too (Mandhana)

          Many of my relatives had been in contact with him and have been to his place(fort) as recently as one year ago. No one in the village will dare speak out against him.

          Our family friend was a (state) personal security guard who was killed in action when Dubey had murdered the state minister hiding in lockup by capturing a police station. This guy mobilized a lot of people (including my family members) to convert cash when demonization happened. There are legit stories of mounds of cash at his place.

          I forget the details but maybe he used to be Rajnath Singh’s son’s sidekick. What amazes me is that he didn’t run away when he could have.

      2. UP Police is not even trying to stage believable cover-ups for fake encounters. It is hilarious to read how fake the gun-fights last week have been, same story, same action, same result. If I was a cop I would not have managed to stop smiling throughout the press briefings given how stupid the police version sounds.

        Yogi just won a lot of votes for re-election.

  15. Razib, I think you’ve stated in the past that you’re mtDNA haplogroup is U2b. But I don’t recall the more specific subclade, was it U2b2?


    The Dalai Lama at 85

    “This humility is the hallmark of His Holiness. In fact, at the Emory University, where he was an honorary professor, His Holiness has described the essence of his philosophy in four words—humility, honesty, transparency and compassion. His Holiness is the living manifestation of these supreme qualities. Compassion, the essence of Buddhism, has taken a human form in His Holiness; he is compassion-incarnate.”

    1. He promised to live 113 years. He also presented the second song for his first music album.

    1. Mainstream Bollywood music and background scores are usually sloppy copy paste jobs. But audience loves repackaged catchy songs so it will never change.

      Try Prateek Kuhad and maybe even Ritviz. They bring some freshness to the scene and somewhat more palatable/familiar sounds for ABCDs. I can recommend atleast a few hundred others whom you should listen.

    1. When I was in college top beauty of my class was a chamar girl and she also had very fair skin. Infact most of chamar from her native village were good looking.

  17. i don’t care about “fair skin.” my wife is blonde (as was my serious gf before that). but you are saying they have good facial features basically?

    1. Yes. I mentioned her skin colour because people generally believe that chamars always have dark skin. We also had a ‘mochi'(from Rajasthan) family as our neighbour and they were also fairly good looking. We still have many ‘bhangi'(mostly migrated from UP & Punjab) families near my ancestral house and they have many women(though dark skin) having fine features.
      When I was younger my favourite way of refreshing myself was by loietring around countryside. Doesn’t matter in which town or city I was I made sure to see surrounding villages(after ensuring that there is no risk of getting stabbed ?) and I noticed a peculiar pattern. Usually people living in single village/village clusters(regardless of ‘castes’ , ‘adivasis’ are excluded) had similar pattern of facial features and similiar range of skin tones. It’s as if air of particular village/village cluster had determinant effect on the looks of the residents.

    2. Chamar girls don’t look like Padukone. The comment was made due to her skin tone, in her earlier movies she used to be paired with lot of fair skinned actors, which contrasted even more.I have heard same comments made for other dusky actors, many of the Brahmins, as well, AKA “they don’t look Brahmin”. On features I think they are mostly evenly distributed across the board. In India skin tone trumps features, so growing up white folks were seen to have better features as well. The view has been changing somewhat slowly now.

      On skin tone, Northern OBCs (Patels, Yadavs) and some SC/STs (Meenas) can pass of as UCs in rest of India.

        1. Well i think some of earlier movies she was on the darker side. I guess now she looks average.

          In a industry where 90 percent of actress are lighter than the average Indian, and get cast essentially due to that reason, someone who is average will “look” dark. Especially, If you are one of the only 3 average skin tone actress plying the trade.

      1. Yeah, i think so. Most of Pakistani life has been in search of Muslim identity, but invariably ethnicity comes in the way. The Arabs, Persians and Afghan/Taliban all did humor them somewhat, but eventually they saw the desi subordinate to them . And the Pakistanis didnt like that.

        Turkish or Malaysian Islam is next throw of the dice, since at least for now it look like they value Islam more than ethnicity. At least for now, so there is camaraderie. Finally the people who wants to fight for Islam first and foremost, rather than concern themselves with ethnicity, the people Pakistan was searching for, all this while.

        Turkey also have these good memories of Khilafat movement which essentially was to restore what Erdogan has essentially done. And since Pakistan inherited Muslims, it also inherited Islamic heritage/memory of the subcontinent including the whole Khilafat movement. All this lays the groundwork for “Islamic International”

        1. It may also be a function of technology. Markets develop more organically now, and the Middle East is a more organic big tent for Pakistan than India is.

          1. I think you are presuming to and fro of Pak-Turkish talent, similar to what happens in Bollywood. I was not pointing to that, but more on lines of Pak being the market, and turkey the producer. Pak industry is too nascent to really export to the Middle East especially something which they already dont produce. Or Bollywood doesnt provide.

            On Pak being the market, Turkish shows ticks all the right boxes. Unlike Kabir i dont think its a fad, but lets see.

          2. Turkish shows have to be translated into Urdu. Which takes some effort.

            Indian content can be watched by many more people because spoken Urdu and Hindi are more or less the same.

            But time will tell if the fascination with Turkey persists beyond “Ertrugrul”.

    1. “Is this finally freedom from Bollywood and India for the land of the pure ?”

      I wouldn’t put too much weight into it. Bollywood is a much bigger market and Pakistani actors will line up for it whenever India-Pak relations show some improvement, just as tons of ambiguously north-Indian passing Middle Easterners do today.
      Think of Nora Fatehi or Mandana Karimi.

      1. Prats, a society like Pakistan is unlikely to produce a performer like Fatehi and Karimi. Indeed, even India is prudish about such matters, our actresses have tended to be in the goddess/ideal of womanhood, the more sexualized/sensous aspect of female presence has usually been left to ‘foreign’ actresses. Think Helen vs Nutan. Katrina vs Priyanka. Now its probably Fatehi/Karimi etc vs Deepika.

        1. I agree but from 2000s onwards there has always been a small cohort of sensuous Indian actresses – Mallika Sherawat, Neha Dhupia etc.

          My main point, though, was about the disparity in market sizes attracting talent from all across the ‘brown’ world.

          Netflix etc are only increasing the number of opportunities available here.

      2. “Bollywood is a much bigger market and Pakistani actors will line up for it whenever India-Pak relations show some improvement”

        I used to think the same especially around surgical strikes and all. But it seems like there is more permanent break with Pak, especially till Modi is in power. And once time passes things start solidifying. Given enough time people feel the current situation as natural. Indo-Pak cricket hasn’t happened now for some time, same thing cannot be ruled out for Bollywood.

    2. She’s really popular right now because of “Ertrugrul”. Everyone associates her with Halime Sultan.

      This is a new fad and it will blow over once the next big thing comes along.

      I don’t think Turkish dramas are going to replace Bollywood anytime soon. For one thing, Turkish shows have to be dubbed in Urdu while Hindi films are perfectly comprensible to most people without subtitles.

      Finally, you guys really love to pontificate about Pakistan without really knowing anything at all about the country. It’s quite funny.

      1. “Finally, you guys really love to pontificate about Pakistan without really knowing anything at all about the country. It’s quite funny.”

        Most of us including you pontificate about India without really knowing a lot about it as well. Wouldn’t be a ‘Pundit’ otherwise.

        1. Pakistanis tend to know more about India than Indians know about Pakistan–it’s only natural with India being bigger and all.

          I have actually been to India (granted when I was much younger). I’m willing to bet most of you have never been to Pakistan. I actually read Indian websites. What sources do you guys read about Pakistan?

          The point is your credibility when it comes to discoursing about my country is rather limited. But of course most of you are just interested in any opportunity to express your anti-Pakistan views and not in a good-faith reasoned discussion.

          1. Kabir, I dont mean to brag, but I have read a few books about Pakistan. These include:

            1) The Unquiet Ones by Osman Samiuddin.

            2) Muslim Zion by Faisal Devji.

            3) Creating a New Medina by Venkat Dhulipala.

            4) Instant City: Life and Death in Karachi by Steve Inskeep.

            5) Pakistan: Nationalism without a Nation by Chris Jaffrelot.

            6) Pakistan: A Hard Country by Anatol Lieven.

            7) In the Line of Fire: A Memoir by Pervez Musharraf.

            Do I have permission to comment about Pakistan ?

          2. Reading a few books is not the same thing as actually having visited the country but it is better than nothing. I have also read many books about India including those by Sunil Khilnani and Arundhati Roy.

            You can comment about whatever you like. But perhaps some humility is in order. Those of us who are actually from the country might find some of your views suspect. Apparently, you think Sindhis are deeply unhappy and there is a separatist movement in the offing. That for example is an extremely wrong-headed belief.

          3. “Apparently, you think Sindhis are deeply unhappy and there is a separatist movement in the offing.”

            I am not sure where I said this. But now that you mention this, I have very good reasons to think that the Sindhis are unhappy, given that they lost control of their premier city and are losing numbers in the region they have called home for centuries.

            Regarding separatist movement, that is unlikely, no foreign support and Sindhis dont have a strong military tradition.

          4. “Finally, you guys really love to pontificate about Pakistan without really knowing anything at all about the country.”

            “It’s quite funny.You can comment about whatever you like. But perhaps some humility is in order. Those of us who are actually from the country might find some of your views suspect.”

            All of these gems from the Pakistani-American guy who says things like “I am Indian ETHNICALLY” and then goes on to claim that individual regions in India, like the Punjab represent an actual “ethnic group” — LMAO!

            The hypocrisy (and lunacy) has never been more apparent.

          5. Vikram,

            Sindhi separatism died decades ago. Sindh is ruled by the the PPP ( a Sindhi party). The Bhuttos and Zardaris have even ruled the (Punjabi-majority) country.

            This is an example of lack of lived experience in a country. Indians really tend to overestimate the strength of separatist movements in Pakistan.

  18. ”Mr. Irfan claimed that on June 17 Mr. Jadhav was “invited” to file a review petition in the Islamabad High Court against his sentence, but chose not to do so. Mr. Jadhav, instead, “preferred to follow-up” on his pending “mercy” petition.”

    I can only hope that Lt. Col.(retd) Habib Zahir’s beard is being shaved with a sharp blade regularly.

  19. The whole Jat genetics stuff is new to me, never occurred to me that even Jats considered themselves superior because in my experience they are never looked up to (with a mix of jealousy and disdain) like Baman-Thakurs (no admiration for UC in me, just stating how things are).

    To be honest I have never heard of any famous Jat businessman or academician and this despite claimed advantages (pride in genetics, land ownership etc) is telling something.

    Without an iota of doubt Jats and Rors are considered somewhat low in caste hierarchy by everyone, and definitely not top tier in intellectual culture, business acumen etc.

    Even large sized farms in Punjab/Haryana (an element of Punjabi/Haryanvi pride that I do know about) are laughably small compared to what people have in UP-terai.

    Jat balwan, jai bhagwan!

    1. Jats lacked land holdings and political power till recently. In the 80s, Dharmendra (who is a Jat) even made movies about Brahmins and Thakurs oppressing Jats in villages,

      They acquired land and status after the British started recruiting them in the army, and after post-independence land reform and the first democratic upsurge (1970s).

      I’ve read other work which points out that Dalits in UP fare better in villages dominated by castes like Jats rather than those dominated by Brahmins and Thakurs.

      The Jat poster might have a point about upper castes being hostile to the Jats, but I dont think he is saying that. Instead he seems to be saying that Jats dont look like Vanias and Patels. This has been a problem with the rise of the peasant castes in India, their political and economic empowerment hasnt been accompanied by the adoption of an egalitarian ethos.

      1. idk almost everyone likes to say we are not ‘Indian-looking’ as if that confers some awesome super-power. No it doesn’t! there are so many thoroughbred Iraqis, what worthwhile stuff have they accomplished in the last hundred years? First it used to be Baman-Thakurs, Muslims, Parsis and now even Jats.

        Some interesting changes might happen if Indians become better off economically than Iranians. I think the romance for (supposed) middle-eastern ancestry/looks might fade when it becomes even more clear that middle-east sucks. Already it is (should be) hard to feel proud of having ancestors from Syria/Iraq, given how banged up these places are currently. If we ever become better off than Iran it would be game over. This has already happened wrt Central Asia. None (except Iqbal type nutjob Pakistanis) feel special love for C-Asian ancestry ever since Uzbeks/Tajiks were leashed by Russians, nothing remarkable has come out of Central Asia in the last two centuries. I am hoping a similar fate awaits the Persian world.

        1. I want to see India rise as well, even at the expense of fringe groups like the Jats. Why? Because we share AASI ancestry with other South Asians. It might be less than 20%, but we still share a significant chunk, and I am proud of what that means for my heritage. It means I can also (partly) claim the achievements of South Asians, be they Fazlur Khan, whose designs are the basis for all skyscrapers today (and included the WTC towers), Bose, the inventor of wireless communication who preceded Marconi, Aryabhata, Madhava, Sushruta, Panini, Sen, Ramakrishnan, Subbarow, Chandrashekhar, Khurana, Ramanujan, and so many more luminaries from South Asia that are disproportionately from the Eastern and Southern regions of the subcontinent. Who can forget Rajeev Motwani et al (South Asians in the Silicon Valley that have had a seminal impact on the information age) or the current domination of South Asians in executive boardrooms across the country. I am also proud to inherit the rich cultural and literary traadition of my ancestors, including the Upanishads, the Vedas, the Vedantas, the Mahabharata and other Epics and even other things like our cuisine and sublime music and philosophical texts. Have Jats done much in this regard? Absolutely not. All I said was that they look different. I apologize if that came across as discriminatory, not my intention at all.

          1. “Because we share AASI ancestry with other South Asians. It might be less than 20%, but we still share a significant chunk,”

            Don’t you also share Steppe and IVC related ancestry with other south asians. Just in different proportions ?

          2. Yeah, that’s a given, I was focusing on the AASI to emphasize that we’re part of a cline of admixture and not “pure” or free of AASI. Also to diasbuse some of the notion that having AASI admixture makes you a pariah in any sense of the word. It certainly seems to make people a lot smarter than those who don’t have it.

          3. @Sumit
            I can’t speak for Apthk but from my observations, that IVC + Steppe ancestry is also shared with Northern/Northeastern Pashtuns + Northern Dardic groups (Kalash, Kho, Kohistani) who aren’t traditionally considered South Asians due to phenotype and/or language (Pashtuns speak an East Iranic language and Northern Dards have distinct phenotypes despite the Dardic languages being considered a sub-branch of Indo-Aryan). Perhaps, he is focusing on that since he shares closer proportions to them than to most non NW South Asians.

            However, the average Hindu Jaat/Ror likely has no idea he is relatively close autosomally to these populations in comparison to their neighbors such as UP Brahmins, UP Kshatriya, Rajputs and Chamars.

          4. In my experience, many Jatt Sikhs I’ve come across also dont differentiate between themselves and lower-caste Sikh groups like Tarkhans, Chamars, and Doms/Mirasis or even Rajput Sikhs and Khatri Sikhs either. These Jat Sikhs have told me that Sikhism is not supposed to have a caste system in the first place, as the Gurus all taught that everyone was equal. This also explains why Jat Sikhs are more admixed on average vs. Hindu Jatts, as they have historically been more liberal with regards to assimilating non-Jatts into their group.

          5. @Apthk
            I am not sure what Jatt Sikhs you have spoken to but I can assure you are wrong about how they identify in general. I can’t speak for the entire community but I can share my observations growing up in it. Theoretically, Sikhism is against tribalism/biradari identification but Jatt Sikhs fail miserably at it. I can’t even count the amount of times I’ve seen people use terms like Chamar/Chura to disparage other Punjabis or South Asians. It’s not limited to “lower castes” either. The term Bhappe is often used in a mocking manner toward Khatris (despite all the Gurus being Khatri!).

            The reality is they do differentiate themselves from other Punjabis to various extents. Just take a look at Punjabi music as an example (every other hit mentions Jatt or Jatti in it). Look at Jatt vs. non Jatt gurdwara issues in the western diaspora. Especially, in the UK.

            Even the Khalistan movement was Jatt dominated (this is partially due to their population demographics among Sikhs but it’s worth noting that influential Khatris, Tarkhans, etc. were involved as well).

            In fact, imo, Jatt Sikhs are actually more widely known to be boastful about being Jatt than Hindu Jaats. They literally have a huge chunk of the Punjabi music industry (by far the most popular South Asian music industry outside Bollywood) dedicated to it. Initially, growing up, I didn’t even know Hindu Jaats existed in border states of Punjab. That’s the reality.
            Regarding autosomal DNA, Jatt Sikhs are definitely shifted toward other Punjabi biradari groups (or just Indus Valley/BMAC shifted) relative to Hindu Jaats but this admixture is unlikely to be recent and there are some who still score similar to Hindu Jaats.

          6. “. Initially, growing up, I didn’t even know Hindu Jaats existed in border states of Punjab. ”

            Growing up i didn’t know if even Hindu Punjabis existed, and its much later that i came to know that muslims are largest punjabi group. 😛

            For me Punjabi=sikh

          7. “For me Punjabi=sikh”

            lol i was on the same boat until mid-teens, for me only the turban-wearing guys in my area(Southwest Delhi) were the Punjabis, found it hard to believe alter that that weren’t the case. I think its the same way we’d subconsciously assume all diaspora Pakistanis to be muslims (i know this is a bad analogy since non-muslim Pakistanis are too few to even consider but still). My mom is a pahadi(from Uttarakhand) and i’m always shocked whenever some Muslim or Christian person from the Doon valley describes oneself as a pahadi haha as for me pahadi identity has always implied Hinduness.

          8. “It certainly seems to make people a lot smarter than those who don’t have it.”

            Probably in part because of the heavy AASI shifted people in the South and to some extent the East have no hope of success in India at things related to media, dating without arranged stuff, and probably even to some extent business (requires interpersonal stuff). So go into STEM and medicine where even if you think the guy doing your surgery is ugly none of the pretty boys can do it so you pay for it.

            Or better yet, go to the US where people don’t care as much (all desi browns (except Jatts, I guess) are seen as brown) and live a fulsome life.

        2. Yea I hope Central Asia remains a shithole for eternity. Not sure what you have against Tajiks. As far as I know they never ruled us or committed atrocities against us. But fuck all the Turkic nations in the region.

      2. No, I’m actually saying both, and I am not implying a racial hierarchy whatsoever. Some things are misconstrued in online discussions/without proper context.

      3. A trace of orientalism there.
        I don’t know about UP but in Haryana and Punjab Jats have been landowners since whenever. Jat belief has it that a Jat is not a Jat unless he owns land. I don’t watch Bollywood much but the fact is that in Punjab Haryana and even western West UP it is the Jats who are the most important community. Thakurs may take pride of place further East; up North they mostly retreated to the hills or converted to Islam, unlike most Khatris, Brahmins, Jats, and Tarkhans.

  20. Apthk: if these are your genuine feelings than you perhaps you need to be more artful in your communication.
    There is a chance that this “change of heart” is due to a fear of being doxxed for perceived racialist views(possible) then you should know that BP attracts the type of people that don’t believe in doxing or the cancel culture 🙂

    1. Nope, people can feel free to doxx me if they’d like, I have nothing to hide. I have no other online presence, BTW. I am just expressing my genuine feelings here. I just get irritated when I encounter people who like lampooning South Asians who genuinely claim to look different (because they truly do) and so I want it to be known that such people exist. Its almost as if people act like that isnt the case. The only reason I even read this blog because I am a long time Razib fan, and when he switched over to his personal site after GeneXP, I started following this site as well. I thought I’d offer my opinions as far as phenotype is concerned, and add to the phenotypic diversity that people might/might not see. Besides, who am I to belittle people? I don’t even have half the knowledge that some posters on this site have, and am still in awe of Razib’s grasp over such a wide and esoteric group of topics and his ability to condense things down to a few short sentences. I can only hope to reach somewhere close to his level of erudtion many years down the line. For the time being I am stuck memorizing random facts and regurgitating them owing to the profession I have chosen.

  21. i haven’t read every word. but apthk comes off harsher than i think he means to tbh. i thought the first post was kind of racist when i read it but let it go through. i don’t think he means to be offensive tho come off that way, and jocular jat-baiting isn’t helping 😉

  22. Traditional sports now included in the great American oppression Olympics:

    “the state of California’s Department Fair Employment and Housing (DFEH) had sued Cisco and its former managers for allegedly discriminating against a Dalit Indian-American employee on the basis of his caste.”

    “Because of the heavy recruitment from IITs, dominant castes who pride themselves as being only of merit have just converted their caste capital into positions of power throughout the valley. Because of the system of internal referrals many managers recruit within their caste and their family and friends network. Cisco is one of those companies where the caste networks are very tight knit and intimidating to break through,”

    1. “Because of the heavy recruitment from IITs, dominant castes who pride themselves as being only of merit have just converted their caste capital into positions of power throughout the valley.”

      Don’t IITs have reservation?

      Is there any study in the difference in recruitment pattern of general category students and reserved category ones?

      As far as I have seen OBCs manage pretty well but there’s serious problems with SCs due to inadequate schooling. They usually struggle in first couple of years and then give up.

      I don’t know what the solution is.

      1. For coding intensive interviews (almost all the well paying ones) nothing matters ie it is a fair competition. Coding is pure meritocracy, it can be taught/learnt in good places like American universities but in India, I believe, it is almost exclusively self taught.

        For other jobs like banks, consultancy, core, etc. grades (rightly) reign supreme closely followed by extra-curriculars. This is where SC/ST students loose out not because of unjustified discrimination but because of discrimination against lower grades.

        It is a mixed bag but the average academic performance is undeniably UC>OBC>SC/ST. Within OBCs the not really backwards (faux-OBCs) do extremely well like Muslims and Yadavs.

        Sadly the truth is that the difference is not down to the lack of preparation as the worst off are the very low ranked students who attended preparatory year before taking undergraduate degree courses.

        In my department a very small minority of SC/ST students did well and a large proportion would fail (deservedly because of not studying). We had a class where 60 % failed including almost all the SC/ST students. The professor was forced by the dean to pass everyone lest it becomes national news.

        Even hardworking (everyone is reasonably smart) people loose confidence in the cut throat and poorly taught first year of college. I remember studying for about 15 hours daily for a week non stop before my electrical technology exam and getting just passing grade. Indian schools take their toll on human spirit. Most people give up, SC/ST kids more so.

      2. 50% reservation on caste, 20% for women.

        For coding intensive interviews (almost all the well paying ones) nothing matters ie it is a fair competition. Coding is pure meritocracy, it can be taught/learnt in good places like American universities but in India, I believe, it is almost exclusively self taught.

        For other jobs like banks, consultancy, core, etc. grades (rightly) reign supreme closely followed by extra-curriculars. This is where SC/ST students loose out not because of unjustified discrimination but because of discrimination against lower grades.

        It is a mixed bag but the average academic performance is undeniably UC>OBC>SC/ST. Within OBCs the not really backwards (faux-OBCs) do extremely well like Muslims and Yadavs.
        Sadly the truth is that the difference is not down to the lack of preparation as the worst off are the very low ranked students who attended preparatory year before taking undergraduate degree courses.

        In my department a very small minority of SC/ST students did well and a large proportion would fail (deservedly because of not studying). We had a class where 60 % failed including almost all the SC/ST students. The professor was forced by the dean to pass everyone lest it becomes national news.

        Even hardworking (everyone is reasonably smart) people loose confidence in the cut throat and poorly taught first year of college. I remember studying for about 15 hours daily for a week non stop before my electrical technology exam and getting just passing grade. Indian schools take their toll on human spirit. Most people give up, SC/ST kids more so.

        1. The biggest determinant of success (within a certain range after accounting for discipline, interest etc) seems to me to be the quality of schooling.

          In my wing of 28 guys, there were 8 SCs. 1 is in Japan with a large engineering firm, 1 is in Chennai with Philips and another is doing well in Flipkart. All the others struggled to finish their degrees.

          They are now doing bit part stuff like teaching in coaching institutes or preparing for government exams.

          Out of the 3 who are doing well, 2 were from upper middle class backgrounds with English medium schooling. The third was just really focussed.

          The rest were all from smaller towns and had not really had decent schooling. One of them was my room-mate in the first year and he had even gone through the preparatory course.

          Most of the connections that are useful later are usually made through extra-curricular activities. Some hobby clubs or gaming tournaments or while organizing events.

          Most of the SC folks have to choose between extra-currics or academic survival. I can empathize with the situation.

          Only way to fix this is to improve quality of schooling. There’s precious little you can do at the university level.

          1. Similar case in my batch too. About 20-30% of reserved-entry students that did well were all from well to do families (parents in gov jobs) and good schools. They were not (economically) disadvantaged to begin with. A very large percentage of this bunch goes on to avail further quotas in IIMs and IAS/IES. Defeats the whole purpose of uplifting the really disadvantaged people.

            Schooling matters a lot especially in inculcating right values. By the time anyone reached (good Indian) universities it’s game time, too much homework, too much stress, no time for building character.

            In my college there were a few gems who managed to brush off their poor schooling/upbringing by focusing single mindedly on academics, or leadership, or going all out on some sport (a lot of respect and opportunities for sports). But people who came from better schools, better music education, better families prevailed more often.

    2. For arguments sake, how can one make a model of ‘caste discrimination’ in the US context? how can a presumed victim of caste discrimination in the US make his charge stick in legal or even make a convincing case for it ? Any ideas.?

      Even in the UK , where there are employment tribunals against any kind of discrimination and redress mechanisms , apart from rare Guardian article about caste discrimination , there has been no case of proven case of caste discrimination as far as I know. Better informed people can inform me.

  23. I looked up the BJP guy killed in Kashmir, seemed pretty harmless political worker. But 8 cops protecting a former district office holder?

    If it was UP and there were political murders the other side (Geelani and company) would have faced vendetta, Kashmir’s mainstream politicians are lame and lack muscle power.

    “The Jammu and Kashmir Police, in unprecedented action against its own, have placed 10 cops in custody following the attack in Bandipora that left a former BJP district president and two of his family members dead on Wednesday”

    1. The murder of this civilian is completely unjustifiable (even though I believe his politics were collaborationist). Attacking civilians is illegal under International Law.

      Today on Twitter I have been called a “self-loathing Pakistani” (which is a new one for me since over here I am accused of being a Pak Mil shill) and also called a “Pajeet” for simply making this point.

      I am extremely disappointed with how some Kashmiri Muslims have slid into jihadist thinking. This doesn’t make the abrogation of 370 or settling Indians in Kashmir acceptable though. But the thinking of these young Kashmiri Muslims doesn’t bode well for the future.

    2. This is not the first political murder in Kashmir. BJP in Kashmir is like Pakistan Muslim League in Nagpur.

        1. @Saurav
          Didn’t you find 10 policemen guarding a never-elected-former-district-level BJP guy excessive? Much more important people (that Bukhari journalist who was assassinated) under serious threat manage to get 1-2 PSOs. This guy was a nobody but had 10! Even MLAs don’t get so many. And these were on duty at one time. Did he have a contingent of 30 to guard him in three shifts?

          1. It actually seems like an inside job, perhaps the guy had better chance of survival had those 10 not been there. All the 10 folks are now under investigation

      1. Killing civilians is illegitimate under International Law even in an anti-colonial struggle. Just for making this point on Twitter, I was labeled a “Godse disciple” and people cast doubts on my even being a Muslim. It’s very sad that there doesn’t seem to be a middle ground between Hindutva and Islamism.

        1. Kabir

          I do understand someone who is not a liberal calling u a “Godse disciple”. What’s ur view on Pakistani’ liberals like Ejaz Haider, Sherry Rehman and all who do feel under illegal occupation all types of violence is justified. I feel there is hardly anyone in Pakistan who is against violence in Kashmir, whether civilian or military. Its just they camouflage it with better words.

          1. The person who called me a “Godse disciple” is supposedly a Kashmiri.

            I do not believe that Sherry Rehman would justify targeting civilians–something that is clearly against all International Laws. You will have to back up that claim. There are many Pakistanis (like me) who believe that our support of the Kashmir cause should be restricted to diplomatic and non-violent means.

      2. Onlooker: Are you implying the Kashmiri BJP guy’s murder was justified in some way?
        Also, like someone else said there is a Muslim League in Kerala and they win seats and have been partners of the Congress

        1. TBF when India hardly did anything to the financiers and founding members of Jinnah’s Muslim League like Aga Khan, Aligarh Muslim University and Raja of Mahmudabad etc. So to expect a strict action against a Mallu Muslim League is tad too far.

  24. RE: TAQIYYAMAN continues his jihad – Descendants of those who have stollen the land, are stilling now the church built by the Roman-Serbian Emperor Justinian.

    Turkey’s State Council voted unanimously to change the status of the Hagia Sophia Museum to a mosque, Turkish journalist Rajip Soylu wrote on his Twitter account, citing sources in the country’s government.

    According to him, the change in the status of the church should be officially announced on July 10.

    It was announced on July 2 that the Turkish authorities are considering changing the status of Hagia Sophia. It was then stated that, according to the latest research, about 70 percent of Turkish respondents approve of the decision to turn it into a mosque.

    US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, as well as the Russian Orthodox Church, opposed the change in the status of this tourist attraction. The State Duma of Russia has drawn up an appeal to the Grand National Assembly of Turkey regarding Hagia Sophia.

    The Church of St. Sophia was consecrated on December 27, 537. It was the largest temple in the world for about a thousand years, but it was later turned into the main mosque of the Ottoman Empire. It has had the status of a museum since 1935, and in 1985 it was recognized as a UNESCO World Heritage Site.

  25. Where did all these really weird racist Pakistanis come from all of a sudden? Mirpuris are “physically superior” to Indians? The Pakistanis in America are all Punjabi and therefore “weak Indians”. Newsflash: the Pakistani Army is mostly Punjabi (as is the country).

    People here know I hate Hindutvadis but these racist so-called Pakistanis would despise me because I’m Kashmiri-Punjabi and therefore “weak dark Indian”. Bizarre. I find all this racialist discourse really pathetic (whether engaged in by Hindus, Muslims, Jatts, whoever).

    1. I agree Kabir.
      Say what you want about the tenets of Islamism, Hindutva and even the weird version of liberalism you espouse, atleast they are ethos (ethoi?). Any human can subscribe to them.

      Ethnic chauvinism is not an ethos. You are basically a prisoner of your birth. Its very offputting in the modern world.

  26. I always knew that there are set of folks who do hold this views, but never knew these supremacist views, are that extreme. It seems as if i am just watching the middle of a movie, while there is lot of backstory i have missed out on .LOL

  27. Razib, my response to Onlooker’s comment (65893) on ‘The Jat Gene!’ post have been stuck in moderation twice.

    Might be the spam filter acting up.

    1. You cannot buy it Razib.
      Jatland Wiki is beamed to Earth from outer space. Its hosted in the original home of the Jats which is way beyond the local group of galaxies.

      1. For those who doubt that Jatland Wiki is an alien website written by an extra-terrestrial intelligence, here is a sample from an arbitrary page.

        Ram Sarup Joon[1] writes that …. In 500 BC, Jats took part in the civil war in Italy. When the hunters invaded Italy, the Jats defeated them on the battlefield of Nester. As a reward the ruler of Italy permitted them to occupy the Danube basin called Balkans now. After four years, differences arose between the Jats and king Theodius of Italy, who attacked the Jats. The Jats were victorious and occupied Asia Minor. Then they attacked Rome and after defeating the famous military commander Allers, occupied the south Eastern portion of Italy. Theodius gave his daughter in marriage to the Jat leader. The Jats vacated Italy, advanced into and settled in Spain and Portugal.

        In 490 BC, there was another battle after which Jats occupied the whole of Italy and ruled there for 65 years upto 425 BC. During this period Italy made a great measure of progress.

        After the death of the great Jat leader Totila, the Jat power declined and they were driven out of Italy. Soon after, the Arabs drove the Jats out of Spain and Portugal. Consequently Jats were so weakened and scattered that they ceased to exist as a recognised group in this area.

        1. “As a reward the ruler of Italy permitted them to occupy the Danube basin called Balkans now.”

          Does that mean, contrary to Milan’s view, its the Serbs who are actually infact (gasp !) Jats ?

          1. As Jatland Wiki clearly explains, every accomplishment anywhere, in all of history, belongs to Jats. Jats created Rome and destroyed Rome, fought in the Kurukshetra war on both sides.

            Jats are the supermen of earth sent from an alien planet to uplift base humans who would otherwise wallow in misery and sloth. Mostly they are fine with operating behind the scenes and letting humans take credit.

            But the one thing they cannot abide is any human ethnicity claiming Jats as one of their own. Things have got so bad recently that AASI, short and dark Indians are doing this. Thats why you see the pushback.

        2. Jat bombast is no worse than the stuff Brahmins tell about themselves.
          This site now reflects the full panoply of Indian caste prejudice, as Cisco does. The case against multiculturalism is vindicated by Hindus and Muslims who carry their awful prejudices to the country that mistakenly took them in.

          1. “Jat bombast is no worse than the stuff Brahmins tell about themselves.”

            Brahmins may be saying whatever in their homes but has any come here on this website and said similar things?

            If they do, you will see me criticizing them as vehemently as I did APthk.

            By bringing in unsubstantiated references to Brahmins here, you clearly are displaying your prejudices. What happened, did a Brahmin steal your lunch money once?

            “This site now reflects the full panoply of Indian caste prejudice”

            Poking fun at ethnic chauvinism is NOT caste prejudice. You are clearly an idiot for claiming that. Jats are not weaklings who cannot handle a bit of valid criticism.

          2. @Onlooker
            \This site now reflects the full panoply of Indian caste prejudice, as Cisco does.\

            What is the latest on Cisco ? has the charges of caste ism conclusively established and any redress given?
            Or does it remain just at that i.e. allegations

  28. Behind all this braggadocio of sexual conquests of white girls and fighting to win against police there is a chilling reality of sexual grooming on an industrial scale of white non adult girls
    ROTHERHAM ABUSE SCANDAL: Horrific reality of ‘industrial scale’ child grooming revealed

    GROOMING of young girls by gangs of predominantly Kashmiri men is still occurring on an “industrial scale” in Rotherham because authorities are failing to tackle an organised child sex crime racket,
    I keep reading about this sex grooming scandals for the last 5 years from many British towns – mostly English towns- and hundreds of men convicted and jailed. Considering that conviction rates of crimes is about 2% , one can imagine the scale of it
    It is an utter failure of the British political establishment and police which is going ton haunt them for a long time.


    Han and Hindu Nationalism Come Face to Face

    “China’s aggression on the border demonstrates a staggering lack of understanding of its southern neighbor. This is a classic error in diplomacy. The BJP, India’s ruling party, and the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), its parent organization, have constantly viewed Pakistan as India’s mortal foe. Buried deep in their consciousness is the memory of Islamic invaders sacking temples, seizing women and imposing jazia, the infamous poll tax that Hindus paid their Muslim rulers until the 18thcentury. The BJP and the RSS have never seen China as a foe. Culturally, they see the Middle Kingdom as a kindred civilization and would prefer trade over war with it. Some even dream of adopting China’s Xinjiang policy in Kashmir. The CCP has been unwise in alienating, instead of cultivating, the BJP and the RSS. “

  30. @Razib
    Please let my comment on ‘the Jat gene’ through. Everyone is commenting random stuff there so I don’t think it should be moderated out. Having been to a few sparring matches I took it upon myself to look up the two boxers Mr. Mirpur is so proud of and presented a details of their boxing prowess. It has a bunch of hyperlinks maybe that is why it is not going through.

  31. Jat steppe mystery isn’t going to be solved using vedas as source. But its quite clear they are older then 1500-2000 years. Maybe as old as 1000BC looking at their population numbers. No group of people from central asia proper left much of genetic impact on south asians in last 1500-2000 years.

    Even pashtuns who originated in south had to rely on local dard pashtunization in north. Hence why modern day northen pashtun is closer to jatt sikh then to southen pashtun.

  32. Ovid was exiled from Rome to the Romanian Black Sea coast. He did not leave more specific information about the native people, but he informed that the Romans did not understand their language. He does not call the people in today’s Romania Dacians, but Getae, Sarmatians, Pontians and Thracians (today we know that these names referred to Serbs). In history, the famous Bavarian Geographer also calls these groups of peoples Slavs: Goths, Sorabi, Scythians, and confirms that it is understandable that Ovid did not understand the Serbian language of the Goths and Scythians. [5]

    Let’s look at Ovid’s testimony on language on the Romanian Black Sea coast, in a letter to a friend:

    “Yes, Roman poet – forgive the muses! Very often I am forced to speak Sarmatian… I hear around me that almost only Scythian and Thracian are spoken, and it seems to me that I can write in the Gothic way. Believe me, I’m afraid you will read Pontic words mixed with Latin in my manuscript. “[6]

  33. I believe my whispering method has worked well so far. We are so far into Step 1 (revealing bigotry) that Razib had to close comments.

    1. Lest you get too self-satisfied, you also revealed some bigotry of your own, making some nasty comments about the Prophet of God (peace be upon him). Some introspection is necessary.

      That said, I’ve been on this site for about 3 years now and never have a come across a poster (APthik) who immediately made so many enemies so quickly. If he’s not a racist then he has no idea how he comes across on here.

  34. Sumit – It mentions “Yavanas” (The word comes from “ionians” and I think used to talk about Indo Greeks). They are considered among the “Melchha” ie non Aryan kingdoms.

    >>> Yavan is a Serbian god of the day, light. Later, Romans replicated him as Jupiter. Arion is the god of hunting (Aryans got their name from him). People from the East sometimes called Aryans also as Yavans. Indra is an old Serbian deity, Mitra (based on White and Black God) was brought to SA by Aryans and later returned to Europe with slightly changed meaning.

  35. Nikola Tesla was born on this day (1856). He arrived in Belgrade on June 1, 1892, for the first and only time in his life.

    “If there is any glory and merit for humanity, to be attributed to my name, then that honor belongs more to the Serbian name, to the Serbian people from whose environment I originated. ”

    June 2, 1892

    Nikola Tesla died on January 7, 1943. He never saw Belgrade again, but he certainly had a love for his origin in his heart for the rest of his life.

  36. Interesting that a large portion of this site thinks NW subgroups have no accomplishments (modern or ancient) and only care about genetics because they need some to lorde over AASI supermensch (even though AASI is no the dominant component in any mainstream indian ethnicity).

    1. “Interesting that a large portion of this site thinks NW subgroups have no accomplishments”

      Lol. You’re swinging the other way now.

      If you go to the previous open thread, you’ll find a discussion how UP and Bihar don’t have any modern accomplishments to their name.

      I think people here just like to cut all boastful claims to size.

      1. Those regions obviously have rich histories though. Aryabhatta, Buddha(yea he was born in South Nepal but probably ethnically closest to UP/Bihar),Guptas, Mauryas. The point it there are accomplishments spread throughout the subcontinent and there’s shitty areas throughout it as well.

        It isn’t about cutting down boastful claims. This is about South Asians finding any reason to shit on other people from the subcontinent. Probably a contributing factor to why South Asia will remain a shithole imo.

        Tbh sometimes I wish we were 100% ANI or 100% AASI so at least this stupid racial boasting would go away.

  37. some of the discussions on race has been so cringe lately that i am starting to feel embarrassed coming to this blog. i have taken to clearing browsing history after visiting this site. i don’t want my friends and family to know what kind of sites i am hanging out at these days.

  38. As I announced yesterday, the Islamists have decided to continue their jihad and steal the largest Christian place of worship.

    ANKARA – Turkey’s highest administrative court has ruled today to allow the government to convert Istanbul’s Hagia Sophia, a former Byzantine Orthodox basilica that became a mosque after the fall of Constantinople in 1453 under Ottoman rule, and is now a museum. to perform Muslim worship.

    The State Council of Turkey annulled the decision of the government of the secular Turkish government of Kemal-pasha Ataturk from 1934 to turn Hagia Sophia into a museum.

    1. Turkey is a sovereign nation state and has the right to do as they wish on their own territory. Not sure why you think your opinion matters.

      Don’t you have massive protests in your own country to deal with instead of trolling here?

    2. Yes , it is massive shift in Turkey, with the Secular regime of Ataturk is dismantled by Erdogan step by step.

      On the one hand it is true, Turkey as a sovereign state has the right to change laws, annul old laws, etc. It is also true that lot of Turkish Muslims were demanding that it be made back into a mosque

      On the other hand, Hagia Sophia used to be the Prime Church for Orthodox Christians for nearly 1000 years, and it was converted into a mosque after great surge of violence by Ottomons, conquest, killing, etc. So, basically the Orthodox Christian world i.e Balkans, Greece, Russia , etc were somewhat satisfied that the result of Hagia Sophia made into museum as it annulled the result of violence on the Christian world , robbing them of their greatest church and spiritual centre. Basically Russia, Greece , Serbia and others had no friction with Turkey all these years .

      Now this act by Erdogon govt will slowly loosen the screws back and bring back some historical animosities.

      This brings into question the comparison between Edrogon’s decision on HG and the pulling down of the mosque in Ayodhya in favour of a temple for Srirama. Babri Mosque was hardly known in the muslim world . There are hundreds of mosques in the Muslim world of much greater historical and spiritual significance. Yet, the leftist and ‘secular’ forces in India were crying hoarse as if that was the end of civilization and secularism in India and the rise of Nazism and fascism. It would be interesting to watch the reaction of Knights of Secularism in the Indian subcontinent to Erdogan’s decision to convert a secular building into a mosque.

      1. There was no mob destruction of Hagia Sophia prior to converting it into a mosque. Turkish courts have followed a proper process and anulled what they have decided was Ataturk’s illegal decision. The mob destruction of Babri was a crime and (as far as I know) there is still a case in Indian courts against the perpetrators–despite the fact that their action has been justified subsequently.

        I believe tourists will still be able to visit Hagia Sophia and nothing will change in the building’s architecture. The only difference is that people will be allowed to offer namaz there (this is at least what the reporting suggests).

        Finally, there is a very good comparison between Modi and Erdogan. Just as Modi wants to undo everything that Pandit Nehru did, Erdogan wants to undo everything that Ataturk did. However, Pandit Nehru was a far far greater man than Hindu Hriday Samrat and Ataturk was a much greater man than Erdogan.

  39. the last couple days on the Jat threads have been bizarre. A lot of stuff said about NW groups (Jats mostly) was in reaction to Apthk’s rantings..I don’t think most people here mean to suggest that NW groups have no achievements..that would be patently untrue and ridiculous..
    Ranjit Singh, Haryana Jat contribution to Indian sports and Asian games/Olympic medals are just two examples I would like to mention..

    1. @justanotherlurker

      Do you have an email (with no personal identifying info) you could share with me?


    1. ये सत्य घटना फ़िल्मों पर आधारित है।

    2. Shree Prakash Shukla was another legendary brahmin mafia. There is a BBC short about him:

      Muslims and Thakurs from Mau and surrounding regions are the real superstars.

      In the old days Dalits, Rajputs and Gurjars used to take up dacoity but that is too flashy for this age. The only crime that makes sense (at scale) now is illegally occupying land and occasional abduction.

      1. “Muslims and Thakurs from Mau and surrounding regions are the real superstars.”

        Haha. Had a friend from the region. Have heard that the neighbouring Azamgarh is famous fro producing athletes and baahubalis (henchmen).

  40. The previous twо days were not for those with a weak heart. I have learned more than in a long previous period. Until now, I knew about Jats that they were one of the hundreds of Serbian tribes that survived difficult moments until they came to SA. It’s amazing how some of the characters came to the surface here. I see that now some of them are trying behind someone’s backs to convince everyone else that we had a racist here.

    What to say about APthk? He is not a racist then he has a strong opinion and sticks to it without compromise. He bravely presented his aesthetic criteria and his personal experience that he himself was the subject of some kind of semi-racist attitudes towards him. He presented his personal information, even his photo, for what almost everyone here, with a few exceptions, does not have the courage to do so. He is very analytical, sharp shooter and a good polemicist. He has great energy and has been arguing with several people at the same time, including at least two from the same background. One of them wanted to be patronizing towards him, but he saw his own mistake and quickly fell into contradiction.

    It would be a little longer story if I presented similarities with their genetic relatives in Europe with whom they share the same ancestors. It is a true mirror of internal democracy that is not present in some communities, for example among Muslims, who are all like-minded and where there is no polemics. We saw a fighting spirit and no surrender attitude that adorned our ancestors. We have also seen the slimy and condescending behavior of one specimen who allows to be called a moron (it doesn’t matter that he really is) and the snitching of an administrator for alleged religious racism. APthk is not here to make friends as is the case with some. Regardless of whether someone likes or dislikes his aesthetic taste and his choice of who he wants to hang out with, it must be admitted that he managed to silence everyone with his arguments.

    One less obvious detail was the absence of the OIT although the polemic was on their blog. I don’t think any of them had the courage to mention anything from their anachronistic arsenal and convince everyone else that all of humanity left Punjab followed by elephants, mices and horses with wrong numbers of ribs. Along the way, it was confirmed that the Mahabharata and the Ramayana are Indian epics related to the Aryans, and further research should be continued from that point.

    I think the discussion was useful and informative. I hope that all participants, especially all Jats, will stay on the blog and return after a short break. I myself was in a position to be called a racist by someone with the least credibility and ethics below all levels because of the facts I presented. The biggest problem is the low polemical culture and personal attacks instead of speaking the language of facts. I would like to congratulate the administrator on the space allotted for the debate at times pretty sharp and on his occasional skillful involvement without excessive interference. Those with weaker nerves can look for less demanding and fun blogs, there are so many around.

  41. On bigotry, I find it apt to quote a famous Sanskrit couplet that compares the blackness of the crow and the cuckoo:

    kākaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ pikaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ
    ko bhedaḥ kākapikayoḥ |
    vasantaṛtāviti samaprāpte
    kākaḥ kākaḥ pikaḥ pikaḥ ||

    1. Anyway Brahmins will fall in line once election approaches. For all the hullabaloo, they know which party is “their” party.

      1. Maybe for Lok Sabha it is BJP but not sure about state elections. Brahmin try to find power between BSP, BJP and Congress(in that order). No one(except BSP where Brahmins play sidekicks to Dalits) wants to get too close to Brahmins as it risks alienating everyone else.

        In my head
        BSP = dalit + brahmin
        Congress = Thakur + leftovers
        BJP = Bania + brahmin
        SP = Yadav + Muslim

        1. Brahmins and Dalits are natural allies in UP.

          Not having much land, both communities benefit from law and order being kept, education opportunities being provided and jobs creation through govt and private activity.

        2. UP has the biggest concentration of Brahmins in India ~10 %, a vote bank in itself. So they wont fall for piece meals, unlike other states. For all the symbolic feature which BSP,SP,Congress provides, they know which party provides them real power, including in the state. The last decade or so they had to adjust with the ruling dispensation since their fav party was not in contention anyway, so they went for the “winning” party.

      2. Not really true. In madhya pradesh last year, Congress won because brahmins deserted bjp.

        Modi brought in upper caste quotas to woo brahmins back for 2019 general elections.

        1. Its misnomer to call the BJP lost MP, considering that they were in dead heat with Congress. Any way Brahmins are not the deciding factor in MP, since the population is far too less to tilt any scale. BJP does not need to woo Brahmins, or any UCs for that matter. Its their party. Or as Shekhar Gupta says they are Modi’s “muslims”. The UC quota was to give their vote bank something,just as dalit party does for dalits, yadavs do for yadavs etc. Its not necessarily to woo them over.

          Lets be clear on one thing, even in 2000s decades where this whole BSP-SP-Congress winning over Brahmins thing started, in no single election did UC voted more for any other party more than they did for BJP. Its just that they did not vote enblock , like dalits,yadavs etc did for their parties. But in pure percentage terms the BJP still got the highest percentage of UC vote, even in that decade.

  42. On mutual accusations of bigotry, I find it apt to quote a famous Sanskrit couplet that compares the blackness of the crow and the cuckoo:

    काकः कृष्णः पिकः कृष्णः
    को भेदः काकपिकयोः ।
    वसन्तऋताविति समप्राप्ते
    काकः काकः पिकः पिकः ॥

  43. A message specifically for paindu: It should not be surprising to find some range of intersection between high end steppe muslim jat and low end or even average steppe hindu jat. The absolute least steppe rich Ror that I am aware of has about as much steppe as a brahmin or mildly above average steppe brahmin. So it isn’t *that* surprising.

    Also, as far as the % of L is concerned, I have seen the larger unofficial group for Sikh Jats but only one group for Haryana Jats which had like 40% as opposed to 25% to 35%. Feel free to send more stuff to my email if you have additional info.

    I don’t want to add more strings of Jat comments in the general threads.

    1. @DaThang

      I’m not going to post much here but if you have a way to share your email with me privately, let me know. I do have some thoughts + data on Jatt/Jaat haplogroups I’d like to share with you.

  44. as a geneticist i’m interested in some of the details. that being said, i feel like the site has been melting down over things like 5% in AASI or something. this is super weird and confusing.

    this stuff is interesting cuz it’s about our origins. not to measure dicks over (yes, i joke about r1a1a-z93, but it’s all a joke L1-losers 😉

    1. The (L)ord is magnanimous so He will forgive you for making jokes about His children.

  45. What is the latest on Cisco ? has the charges of caste ism conclusively established and any redress given?
    Or does it remain just at that i.e. allegations

    i’m hearing this case is a real instance, but the idea this stuff is pervasive in the states is wrong (which seems right to me, but i don’t know much)

  46. Just read the CISCO article. Comments from my experience:

    1. There are certain groups that are more into ritual purity and ‘merit’ than others. I’d put Tamil Brahmins at the top on average. One of my friend’s advisor was a renowned CS professor but he never went for any conferences since he can’t cross the seas. Not joking.

    This was good for my friend since he would travel instead.
    He’s a Tam Brahm as well but quite liberal.

    It should be kept in mind, though, that the discrimination in most cases is not actually based on one’s caste but on the category (SC, OBC, general) one chose to take the exam in. So if you are a Dalit but took the exam in the general category, you are most likely not going to face discrimination.

    2. The people involved in the CISCO incident went to IIT some 20 years ago. This should be significant.
    Back then the total reservation was 28% (21% for SCs and 7% for STs).
    The seats were also often not completely filled so the eventual total number of reserved category folks would be still less. They were usually sidelined and didn’t play much of a role in the culture.
    JEE ranks were also more important back then so being ‘general’ category mattered.

    That changed post-2008 when OBC reservations were added and the total number of reserved seats rose to 49% by 2010. The profile of IITs and awareness about them also rose in this time. Fewer seats went vacant.

    So recent batches have almost half the batch with reserved students. This has changed the culture and students have more ’empathy’ after a fashion.

    OBCs, on average, fall somewhere between general and SC in academic performance so that has also smoothed the previously extremely bi-modal distribution.

    This is not to say there is no latent sense of resentment among general category students but when you stay with the same people for four years they become your friends and that resentment goes away.

    Social justice has also become much more important of a part of daily conversation.

    (Things are different in private universities where there is no reservation. I’d say these people are much more clueless on average than folks who’ve studied in public universities. I’ve heard extremely ignorant stuff being said by my friends from BITS, VIT etc.)

    3. Old-school profs can still be very disparaging in person. I know some who are family friends and say stuff that can get them in deep trouble if made in public. Again, it’s not because of caste but category, which overlap in ~90% of cases.

    They are not *casteist* people per se.

    4. Out of the students who drop out, a significant number are SC. This is a pretty uncomfortable situation since you want IITs to be autonomous but if you give them autonomy then it will result in a scenario that’s indistinguishable from caste discrimination.

    The main reason as discussed above with Bhimrao is lack of good schooling. As a result, these folks struggle, especially because the medium of instruction is English.

    There are English classes for those who want to take it in the first year but it is difficult to catch up with about 60-70% of the batch who have studied in English all their lives.

    Relative grading, which is used by a lot of instructors, doesn’t help.

    5. The only solution I see is improving the quality of schooling in the country, which we have continuously failed to do since independence.

    Tinkering at the university level is just political image management. It’s like treating the symptom. It might even be counter-productive in the long term.

    6. There are other kinds of subtle exclusionary factors that are unrelated to caste but also play a role.
    A large chunk of profs are Bengali or Tamil and they usually carry some prejudice against north Indians.

    This affects most Hindi speakers but is significantly worse for, say, a Meena from a small town like Bharatpur in Rajasthan to find meaningful research work.

    India is complex.

    1. **very abusive/strong language ahead**

      “when you stay with the same people for four years they become your friends and that resentment goes away.”

      This reminds me of a conversation I had heard near a college canteen between three friends about 10 years ago. Very lewd, offensive (to sensitive people) but at the same time displaying how friendship is already stronger than caste/religion in India and with time things will only get better. I have not seen resentment against anyone after 4 years of living together in college.

      Real conversation between three guys X (dalit), Y (muslim) and Z (brahmin).

      X to Y: Yo Love-Jihadi! heard you got dumped. Sad to hear this man. Must have been your circumcised d*** that scared her or did you tell her about your plan to make 8 babies with her. Or did she whisper ‘mandir wahin banayenge’ in your ear?

      Y to X: Gutter-snipe! at-least my family wouldn’t get paraded naked infront of the village (for dating other caste) like you people. And what is it btw that you are celebrating? You wouldn’t get to enter the temple anyways you manual-scavenger.

      X to Z: (patting Z’s back) look our Jihadi just got angry.What would you do X? bomb our place in anger shouting Allahu-Akbar!

      Z to X: Fuckface! I let you sit on a table in-front of me instead of the floor, now you dare touch me you filthy janitor.

      X to Z: (pretending to smear Z’s face and neck while Z pretends to feel disgusted) Yes I was cleaning your washroom but your aunt walked in naked acting all innocent. I fu**** her and when I will get a job before you (with job reservation) I will maybe marry your sister and call you my “sala” (mildly derogatory word for brother in law) and bless your bloodline with hair (Z was balding).

      Y to Z: Panditji! even I am a part-time Ved Vyas. I can bestow (head full of) hair to your sister(‘s child) too. You just need to pray to me standing on one leg for 12 days chanting “Om Namah Muhammaday”.

      Z to Y: First figure out your ancestry you illegitimate product of invading rap****.

      All three laugh their asses off continuing their jokes while walking back to their hall of residence, Y’s hands over Z’s shoulder.

      College friends are a gift of god. It is impossible to recreate that kind of magic again. I don’t know what it is like in the US colleges, people are fragile/reserved here so I am guessing we have it better in India.

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