A newer Open Thread is up: Open thread: Musk the sociopath? →
On early Sunday morning, May 24, 2026 — Just a few days before the festival of Eid al-Adha — on a quiet morning in Quetta’s Chaman Pathak neighborhood. An explosive-laden vehicle ripped through a shuttle service carrying passengers, from the Quetta Cantt station – killing at least 24 and 70+ wounded, mostly military personnel, laborers and families, that were headed to the Peshawar-bound Jaffar Express. These were ordinary Pakistanis looking forward to getting back to their hometowns for the Eid holidays. The Balochistan Liberation Army has claimed responsibility for the attacks. This tragedy comes just around the first anniversary of the Khuzdar school bus bombing — killing 8 civilians, injuring dozens, most of the fatalities being school girls. This attack was also connected to separatist militants in the province. Celebrated by journalists, talking heads and govt officials across the eastern border along with their social media commentariat – blinded by nationalism.
Jaffar express sounds familiar as that train was also attacked a little over a year ago, March of 2025, early in the holy month of Ramadan. That attack orchestrated by the BLA, killed over 60. It seems like attacking Pakistan around the holidays is the M.O of these militant groups and their handlers.
There is grief across Pakistan as terrorism has gone up, patience is wearing thin among the general public with the states inaction against these adversaries of the nation. The Dhurandars are running up their kill streak, maiming innocent Pakistanis across the country, trying to instill fear, chaos and division. There is palpable frustration among the citizenry due to government incompetence and lenience towards ethno-fascism and a failure to protect its citizens from this regional proxy war. Will the Dhurandars be brought to justice for the mass murder of innocent civilians or will the Dhurandar-ing continue with more violence, terrorism and bloodshed across Arz-e-Pak to no avail.
Here’s to another somber Eid and world peace.
This is a terrible tragedy; may the rest in Peace.
It is true that Dhurandhar essentially glorified violence in a Pakistani context.
We don’t want to divert the thread but since Dhurundhar has been verbed and nouned.
Admin Note: where did we make any such inference.
there is no point in being persistently hostile. We simply express our condolences and a rather neutral observation.
There is no point in overreading what we write.
There is plenty of evidence of India’s support for proxy militancy across the region and particularly, in Pakistan over the past 8 decades. Indians themselves gloat about their vast transnational kill networks (aka Dhurandars) across the world that is able to carry out terrorist attacks and extrajudicial killings – Indians themselves take great pride in propaganda movies like Dhurandar (among several similar movies) and emphasize how its based off true stories, these movies are backed and co-written by members of India’s own security establishment. Indians can not brag about the might of their country and intel agencies partaking in international assassinations and terrorist activity, celebrate causalities online and on national television but then deny and gaslight any involvement when they get rightfully accused. Own up to your Dhurandars (deshatgards).
Absolutely.
It is clear India is behind destabilizing Balochistan. This was even officially admitted by the Indian government at Sharm-el Sheikh.
We have seen multiple incidences on this blog where “Dhurandhar” has been proudly cited as “based on a true story”.
As an aside, hope to see more posts from you. We desperately need more Pakistani representation.
Is there evidence for Indian involvement?
BLA is responsible for the attacks, they’ve notoriously been supported by the Indian government/security apparatus.
ISPR has repeatedly linked the BLA to Indian support. Same with the TTP.
I will always trust ISPR over anything said by any Indian.
He’s not lying though. Until we see a change in the commentary online and by Indian journalists and government officials then we can’t think otherwise. There seems to be a genuine bloodlust for war and the decimation of Pakistan among Indian nationalists.
you edited my comment when I questioned your statement endorsing this post.
what was so egregious that you felt the need to remove my words?
I say again, the violence in Dhurandhar was only directed at criminals and perpetrators of terrorism. Not innocents.
In spite of that fact, this post by someone who is a repeat offender on BP when it comes to falsehoods and bigotry, is not only platformed, but his unsupported attribution of Indian movies and Indian government with internal Pakistani Baloch violence is endorsed.
And when such nonsense is challenged, comments get deleted? On what basis?
In any case, Eid Mubarak to all who are celebrating, and also Yaum e Takbeer Mubarak
Exactly. Indians should be prepared for Pakistani retaliation for their attempts to destabilize the Islamic Republic.
Occupied Kashmir is Disputed Territory. Balochistan is unequivocally part of Pakistan.
Eid Mubarak.
Since you’ve mentioned “Yaum-e-Takbeer”, Thank God that Mian Sahab made Pakistan a nuclear power.
Pakistan does not engage in proxy subconventional warfare in India especially since the border is one of the most highly secured borders in the world – Pakistan does not have access to India through any of its borders the way has India access to Pakistan through the porous Pak-Afghan border. Afghanistan is essentially a training ground and launch pad for these Dhurandar militants.
The Government of Pakistan should act responsibly and call out any attempts of an Indian false flag to launch Op Sindoor 2.0. Any response should be conducted through dialog, the only kinetic response should be under the covenant of international laws permitting conventional military action against the terrorist network not through subconventional proxy warfare as that will just create more problems for Pakistan as it just wants to focus on development and prosperity and play its role as a mediator for peace in the region.
This is a good comment; Pakistan has to focus on decadal goals.
The “Government” of Pakistan is busy imprisoning cricketers and politicians. That’s the extent of their ‘kinetic’ capabilities. Over-hyped surrender zamindars LARPing with shiny metal discs that they award themselves. Along with “constitutional” urban land and housing.
And you have apologists for terror-state spouting propaganda to justify continued oppression.
//Pakistan does not engage in proxy subconventional warfare in India especially since the border is one of the most highly secured borders in the world – Pakistan does not have access to India through any of its borders the way has India access to Pakistan through the porous Pak-Afghan border. Afghanistan is essentially a training ground and launch pad for these Dhurandar militants.//
You guys are angry about Operation Sindoor but regularly forget about 26/11 and Pakistani support for kashmiri militancy.
What you are feeling now is a small fraction of what Indians have been feeling for decades. If you feel bad about it, maybe be a little critical to your military that started this mess in the first place.
With all due respect, there will never be a repeat of “Sindoor”. If India tries it, Pakistan should do whatever necessary to deter India.
Don’t even think about threatening the territorial integrity of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. We are a nuclear power and don’t you forget that.
Kashmir is a Disputed Territory. Kashmiri Muslims have been waging a freedom struggle. I am ethnically Kashmiri Muslim. Don’t try this rhetoric on me.
There was no militancy in kashmir before the 1980s so cool it with the freedom struggle.
Furthermore Kashmir is a bilateral issue not a an international dispute.
Lastly, Pakistan own actions including 26/11 are why India did Operation Sindoor. Remember the first targets were bases of jihadis in Pakistani Kashmir. Retaliation on Indian civilians prompted attacks further inland.
I’m sorry but this is an Indian nationalist interpretation. I expected better from you.
“There was no militancy in Kashmir before the 1980s”– Why was Sheikh Abdullah in jail? Why did India rig the election in the late ’80s which led to the “militancy”?
“Kashmir is a bilateral issue”– This is laughable. Kashmir is a Disputed Territory. The LOC is a ceasefire line not an international border. The entire world speaks of “Indian-Administered” and “Pakistani-Administered” Kashmir.
Don’t you dare to lecture EK and I on Kashmir. Both of us are ethnic Kashmiris.
“Operation Sindoor” killed Pakistani women and children. Any attacks on Pakistan’s territorial integrity is an absolute red line.
//“Operation Sindoor” killed Pakistani women and children. Any attacks on Pakistan’s territorial integrity is an absolute red line.//
26/11 and Pakistani supported terrorism has killed hundreds of Indians as well. If Pakistans terrotorial integrity is a red line, why should India be or Indians not be cross with Pakistanis for violating Indias terrotorial integrity.
Furthermore,the actual opinion of Kashmiris on whether to be part of India or not is quite ambivalent,with varying degrees of support and opposition, same with the Balochis, a lot more are willing to work with their respective countrys than leave it which is why militancy is even necessary to push seperatist agendas. Of course neither India nor Pakistan is a perfect country.
I dont think that you being Kashmiri makes you an expert on what the situation within Kashmir is, it is like Khalistanis in Canada acting like experts on sikhi in India.
Pakistani Kashmiris are not “Kashmiri” in the proper sense. They don’t even speak Koshur.
They are descendants of Kashmiris who migrated to Punjab in the 1800s.
They are as “Kashmiri” as Indian Pathans are “Pashtun”.
That still makes them kashmiri.
A Punjabi who is born abroad and may not know how to speak Punjabi is still a Punjabi. The main point is being from that ethnicity does not make them more default authority on the viewpoints of the people there
Not really. They moved many years back and have intermixed with the locals. Even their surnames have changed from the original Kashmiri versions.
It’s like Tamil Brahmins being “North Indian”.
No country’s territorial integrity should be violated. Occupied Kashmir is DISPUTED TERRITORY. What part of Disputed Territory do you all not understand?
In any case, I have stated on record that I am against Pakistan’s use of proxy war. You would know that had you read my essay on being a center-left Pakistani.
If you really care about the “actual opinion” of Kashmiris hold the plebiscite.
Many Kashmiris consider the Abdullahs and the Muftis to be collaborators.
Don’t you dare tell an ethnically Kashmiri Muslim about Kashmir. They are my people not yours.
//In any case, I have stated on record that I am against Pakistan’s use of proxy war. You would know that had you read my essay on being a center-left Pakistani.//
I have read your essay which makes your support and lack of censure of the Pakistani army more perplexing not less.
The time for plebiscite is gone, in any case you cant decide something as serious as whether to be independent or not by a simple vote. Half of problems in subcontinent stem from making immensely important decisions by simple majority.
Nobody really knows where the kashmiri stands with respect to Indian sovereignty, post Burhan wani funeral I would have agreed with you but now it seems Kashmiri are more willing to work given it is clear militancy wont succeed( and probably never would have given the lulls even during UPA period) and at best if they leave India, they will either be absorbed into pakistan, or become a battleground between two antagonistic powers.
If you’ve read my piece, I clearly said I don’t agree with the use of terrorism as a tool of proxy war. I also said I would prefer the army to stick to their constitutional role and stay out of politics.
What else do you want from me? Complete surrender to India? That’s not going to happen.
I’m probably among the most reasonable Pakistani interlocutors you all will ever come across.
Kashmir is not a real estate issue. The Kashmiri people have the absolute right to self-determination–whether that is India, Pakistan or azaadi.
You all took away even the fig leaf of Article 370. Really, you are winning hearts and minds.
No Kashmiri Muslim (other than the collaborator class) likes any of you one bit.
Your among the most prolific defenders of the Pakistani army here,not to mention you seem to believe in many salient points of the TNT
As far as Kashmiri wanting to stay in India or not, you cant know what they want. Whatever cross section you speak to, is not representative neither is any cross section pro India people would speak to.
“You are among the most prolific defenders of the Pakistan Army here”–
I am a patriot. Several members of my mother’s extended family have served in Pak Fauj–some in senior positions including DGISPR and Chief of Air Staff.
Your country carried out “Operation Sindoor” violating Pakistan’s territorial integrity. It is Pak Fauj who managed to deter you all.
Without Pak Fauj, India would have destroyed Pakistan long ago.
I have no issues criticizing the Army when warranted. I clearly said in my piece that I am against the use of proxy war and that the Army should stay out of politics. Those are center-left positions.
“As far as Kashmiris wanting to say in India or not, you can’t know what they want”–
OK. Hold a referendum. We will find out what Kashmiris want. As it is, Occupied Kashmir is one of the most militarized zones on earth.
Read Basharat Peer’s memoir. Watch “Haider”. Read Mirza Waheed’s novels.
Many Kashmiri Muslims think of India as the Occupier.
//Without Pak Fauj, India would have destroyed Pakistan long ago.//
We would not even be in conflict todsy as it is the Pakistani fault that had supported the initial terrorist orgs from which the Pahalgam attackers came from. Without the pak fauj,26/11 would not happen which is the precedent that India used as justification for its inital incursion into Paksitani Kashmir.
Your Pakistani army is the reason for much of Indias responses.
As far as referendum goes, we cant have referendum when militancy is also present. Not to mention there is no guarantee that it will be accepted if it goes overwhelmingly in one direction by the winner or is a split mandate. As it is most of the kashmiri will side with whoever is the most hegemonic and influential, which currently is the Indian government.
Once militancy ends completely India needs to secure justice for kashmiris of all religions for things that happened since the 1980s
Again, history does not begin with Pahalgam or even 26/11, India and Pakistan’s history begins in 1947. India has been hostile to Pakistan from the very beginning.
India had no moral right to Kashmir. Kashmir was Muslim-majority in 1947. If the will of the ruler is what matters, then please give Junagadh back to Pakistan since the Nawab clearly acceded to Pakistan. But in that case–since the population was Hindu majority– a plebiscite was conducted. Hyderabad was forcibly integrated through a “police action”.
The Hindu Dogra ruler of Kashmir had no right to decide anything for Kashmiri Muslims. He was neither a Kashmiri nor a Muslim. My relatives absolutely despised the Dogras. “Jammu day Dogray” was a common insult.
India cannot follow whatever principle is convenient at whatever time. If the will of the ruler is what matters than return Junagadh to Pakistan. If the will of the people is what matters, vacate Muslim Kashmir.
I recommend you read Mridu Rai’s book on Kashmir. It’s called “Hindu Rulers, Muslim Subjects: Islam, Rights and the History of Kashmir”.
What you keep referring to as “militancy” is a freedom struggle.
I believe Pakistan should offer non-violent and diplomatic support to that freedom struggle. I’m against “jihad” or proxy war. Again, this is a center-left view.
This conversation has run its course. You’re not going to convince me out of Pakistani patriotism and I can’t convince you out of holding an Indian nationalist position.
Whatever can be said about Kashmir can also be said about Balochistan where Pakistan overtook despite them wanting to be independent.
In Junagadh, and Hyderabad the local populace wanted to be part of India, particularly in Hyderabad you forget that there was a local communist resistance against the Nizam that razakars tried to brutally crush which turned large sections against the Nizam. The police action that followed and violence against is condemnabale not least because it was non combatant particularly women and children who were attacked, India needs to at least acknowledge it.
As far as Kashmir is concerned, post the British leaving haphazardly both India and Pakistan were going through a mad rush to get as much land as possible, othereise why would Jinnah who believed hindus and muslims are two different entities with no common ground, want Hindu majority Junagadh? Where is his consistency there?
In Kashmir there was no clear preference for one or the other, because of the dogra violence, Pakistan felt it necessary to take it by force and India took advantage of the instrument of accession to get control of as much as it could. Since neither budged nor compromised the issue is still going on.
And no, a movement that has to resort to foreign supported militant action to achieve its goals is not a freedom movement, otherwise even Balochistan is also a freedom struggle by the same token. Be consistent, either both Kashmir and Balochistan are freedom movements or neither are. In my opinion, there is no clear preference for either given the amount of violence, the vast majority would go with whoever can create lasting stability and peace,which will be the governments themselves, after that no one really knows.
Being a nationalist especially a liberal you should be able to see where your country is going wrong, being hypocritical or at least be consistent in your application of principles. Being angry at Operation Sindoor and then defending the fauj that supported 26/11, being angry that India allegedly supports Balochi fighters and then defending the same fauj that has trained and supported terrorists in kashmir, calling balochistani militancy as militancy and terrorism but kashmiri militancy a freedom struggle is quite hypocritical.
Kashmir is a Disputed Territory. Balochistan is unequivocally a part of Pakistan.
X.T.M has written a precedent post on this. I don’t want to belabor this point further.
https://www.brownpundits.com/2025/12/21/why-balochistan-is-not-
kashmir
Kashmir remains on the agenda of the UN. The whole world refers to “Indian administered” and “Pakistani administered” Kashmir. No one speaks of “Pakistan administered Balochistan”.
Regarding Junagadh: The point is that India cannot pick and choose which principles to follow. If the ruler got to decide, then the Nawab of Junagadh acceded to Pakistan. Therefore, Junagadh belongs to Pakistan. Hari Singh acceded to India. Kashmir belongs to India.
If the religion of the populace is to be taken into account, Junagadh goes to India and Kashmir (the entirely princely state) goes to Pakistan.
India doesn’t get to selectively apply whichever principle gets it the most land. That’s what Pakistanis object to.
Once you start calling me a “hypocrite”, there is no further point to this conversation. It’s a word I take extremely strong objection to.
I am saying that you are calling India application of principles hypocritical but ignore Pakistans hypocrisy when as well.
And as far as both the balochis and kashmiris who dont want to be part of a their current country if I am supposed to take into account the kashmir voices in favour of secession, as an independence movement the you should also apply that same logic to balochi voices that want to secede from pakistan. Internationalization does not really matter here.
There are more Baloch living in Sindh and South Punjab than there are in Baluchistan. Even within Baluchistan the Baloch are a minority and even in that minority majority is not seperatist.
Did someone tell Zardari, Bizaenjo, Jamali, Jatoi, Soomri, Buzdar, Mazari, Marri etc etc and all others who sat at the highest levels of power in Pakistan that they are oppressed?
Most Indians get their news from Bollywood so it’s not surprising that they would think like this.
Did anyone tell Nehru, Mufti, Farooq, Omar etc and all others who sat at the highest levels of power in India that they are oppressed?
What is happening in Balochistan (as described in this post) is not “Bollywood”.
Nehru was neither Kashmiri nor Muslim, so he is irrelevant. The other three are nobodies outside Kashmir and spent half the time agitating. They are also not tribal leaders like the names I mentioned. If you don’t know what that is and how that works, perhaps don’t draw false equivalancy because you don’t know what you are talking about. Watching some shitty bollywood movie about the Baloch didn’t prepare you for this.
This is a really bad analogy tbh
I dont agree that other than a section many balochs want to be separated from Pakistan, ditto with Kashmir.
Most of the population will go with a group who can guarantee long term stability which is the country of Pakistan for Balochistan and india for Kashmir.
Kashmir is a DISPUTED TERRITORY. Balochistan is unequivocally a province of Pakistan.
It is intellectually dishonest to compare Balochistan and Kashmir. Read X.T.M’s precedent post.
Precedent posts are the settled position of “Brown Pundits”.
You ought to write a post on this topic. Your comments are factual and objective.
🙂
Ho rabba umr pighli imam hai teri
Aisi bhi kya zid hai teri
Kara de ab deedar e mauka
Mauka mauka
Mauka mauka
Sure thing.
Your not getting Jammu, Ladakh or Leh because they dont want to secede India.
And I dont think Kashmiri want to join the Islamic Republic of Pakistan,over India at least.
Not even getting Kashmir because no one in Kashmir wants to join Pakistan and a lot are okay with India.
Continued growth/peace means the rest will be brought over.
Hold a referendum.
Honestly, I don’t care about Hindu Jammu or Buddhist Ladakh. I’m concerned about the Muslim Kashmir Valley.
Similarly, You are not getting AJK or GB because they don’t want to be ruled by Hindus.
That’s not Pakistan’s official policy though and rightfully so. Jammu isn’t entirely Hindu and neither is Ladakh, a referendum would be for the entire erstwhile princely state and its constituent units. Jammu is over 1/3rd Muslim, used to be majority Muslim before the Jammu massacre of 1947 and exodus of many native Muslims across the border into Punjab during the partition – to this day several districts still remain Muslim majority, moreover the Chenab valley in Jammu is inhabited mainly by ethnic Kashmiri Muslims. Some of the biggest voices and activists of J&K separatism have been Paharis and Gujjars from Jammu. Ladakh is roughly half Muslim and the Muslim communities there are culturally contiguous with the Muslims of Gilgit-Baltistan.
Of course. The Chenab Valley should go with the Muslim-majority Kashmir Valley.
The plebiscite must be held in the whole state.
But personally, I’m not bothered that much about Ladakh and Jammu.
No one is being ruled by hindus.
These are folks for whom Nehru was too ‘hindooootva’ to share a country with.
Its Islamic segregation and apartheid logic you are trying to discuss facts with. No point really.
Your PM is “Hindu Hriday Samrat”. He has Muslim blood on his hands.
Thank god that Pakistan exists. At least 250 million of us are free from you all.
We are a free and proud Muslim people who live in the world’s only Muslim-majority nuclear power.
Hindus cannot hurt us. That’s why the “Saffroniate” on this blog hates Pakistan so much.
We only have the PM we have today because of many missteps of the muslim clergy in India, and the numerous wars with Pakistan and terrorist attacks in kashmir.
Without the Pakistani army the BJP would never have come to power, its actions created fertile ground for polarization.
A lot of things are self fulfilling prophecies, and the Pak fauj thst you credit with protecting your country is the reason behind many bad things happening to Indian muslimsx including Kashmiris and are not doing great for the majority of Pakistani muslims either.
All I will say is that India and Pakistan’s history doesn’t begin with “Hindu Hriday Samrat’s” election in 2014. It begins in 1947. India has been hostile to Pakistan since the very beginning.
Had it not been for Pak Fauj, Pakistan would not exist today. Thankfully, it does and we are the world’s only Muslim-majority nuclear power. India will never be able to break Pakistan again like it did in 1971. Any attempt to do so will risk nuclear war.
I do agree with you that the Two Nation Theory and Hindutva feed on each other. I’ve made that point on this forum multiple times.
How Pakistanis feel about Pakistan is an empirical question. If you were to conduct a poll and ask people if they believed we would have been better off without a sovereign Pakistan, I bet you most people would say no.
Hindus and Muslims have a toxic relationship. Thank Allah that 250 million of us don’t have to live with Hindus.
By the same token, most Hindus in India are probably delighted that the overall Muslim population is only 15%. Even that is too much for most of them.
The hostility is stemming from British Divide and Rule that culminated into things like TNT and through TNT and actions during Partition, we have a situation where large section of subcontinental muslims and hindus think we are seperate nations and are existential enemies but that is not the truth and cannot be the truth.
The Pakistani army needs you to think that it is keeping you safe from India because of its own actions, it is as responsible as India for not withdrawing the army from kashmir and doing a plebescite, and before India got involved in Bangladesh it is the army that went against the elected leadership there because they did not want to give power. Furthermore, Operation Sindoor is a response to pahalgam that happened due to Pakistans own actions supporting militants and Pakistan can hardly complain about sovereignity because of 26/11
Your protector is actively using all the resources of your country to create a need for itself.
You and many Pakistanis can disagree with this, may even be against some of their past policies but this disagreement is kind of pointless if you still accept their hegemony and more to that resist attempts to bring out how much of the security threats Pakistan faces are due to the army and the bad ideas that permeate its society.
.
I already pointed out to you that the RSS was founded long before anyone thought of TNT. I don’t know why you keep downplaying this.
There is no evidence that Pakistan had anything to with Pahalgam. Instead of conducting a credible investigation before the international community, India launched “Sindoor”. “Sindoor” was a violation of Pakistan’s territorial integrity–a red line for any patriotic Pakistani.
You aren’t going to convince me of your POV. Sorry. I’ve pointed out to you my mother’s relatives have served in positions such as DGISPR. On my mom’s side, I come from a very patriotic Kashmiri-Punjabi family with ties to Pak Fauj,
Because the RSS was formed after the Mallapuram riots, where the Islamic revivalism that eventually is the heart of TNT claimed its first victims.
There is also no proof that India is linked with BLA, and as I keep on mentioning if Sindoor is a violation in the eyes of patriotic pakistanis and why India is an enemy why exactly is 26/11 and other violations by Pakistan not seen the same way, but instead as some outpouring of hatred for muslims or desire to see Pakistan fail?
You can keep your POV, but you should be aware of the blindspots in it.
“There is no proof that India is linked with BLA”– Really? ISPR has told us that it is.
As a patriotic Pakistani, I will always believe ISPR over–with all due respect– a random Indian on the Internet.
You should be aware of the blind spots in your own POV as well.
India proves Pakistans ties to militancy internationally, if Pakistan does the same I will also admit so.
I am not saying that India is always in the right or that it has not used disproportionate force to quell unrest. No matter how old our cultures maybe our country’s are very young and their survival depends on convincing the populations staying in it thst they are the hegemon, even using violent repression if needed
My only point is that it is not India, that created the precedent of attacking civilians for military purpose, Pakistan did with 26/11. Many security threats to Pakistan like above arw creation of the military
And I maintain that partition is a disaster from which many disasters also originated, the result of this was a rush to claim as much land any which way from where the present day origin of Kashmir issue originates. I do acknowledge India used different standards for itself when needed, as did Pakistan when it wanted places that are predominantly Hindu with minimal muslims just because it was grouped with a Muslim majority province. No one is clean and righteous because they were forced into situations where they could not be.
India and Pakistan’s history doesn’t begin with “26/11”. It begins in 1947. Pakistanis have a whole list of grievances with India that go back to Partition. I’m not going to repeat myself on this. I already mentioned India depriving Pakistan of our share of British India’s money.
I do agree with you that all the bad blood emanates from Partition. Also agree that “no one is clean and righteous”.
Btw, Pakistan has taken India’s interference in Balochistan to the UN. You don’t have to believe us but we are very serious about our claims.
//Btw, Pakistan has taken India’s interference in Balochistan to the UN. You don’t have to believe us but we are very serious about our claims.//
Lets see if this is accepted. India is also serious about many of its claims regarding Pahalgam, that is has not been able to convince the world of.
Manmohan Singh’s government admitted at Sharm-el-Sheikh that India was involved in destabilizing Pakistan in Balochistan. This was way back in 2009.
https://www.isas.nus.edu.sg/papers/119-india-and-pakistan-the-message-from-sharm-el-sheikh/
India hasn’t been able to convince the international community of its claims on Pahalgam. Instead of conducting a credible investigation, your government chose to bomb Pakistan. That is an obvious red line. You bomb us again we will bomb you back twice as hard. Don’t play this game with a nuclear power.
Do you mention the various terrorist attacks that have happened in Pakistan over the past several decades which Pakistan attributed to India. Do you mention India’s support for militancy in Sindh, Balochistan, AJK and East Bengal? Why do you hold Pakistanis to a different standard than yourselves?
Op Sindoor to you might just be an operation but to Pakistanis it was a military assault on our homeland leading to the death of several civilians, terrorizing people for 4 nights straight.
Uh… you do realize India’s proxy wars aka dhurandar-ing has been going on in Pakistan for several decades? Indians seem to think that history started on 11/26/08. Pakistan has lost far more people both in absolute numbers and on a per capita basis to your proxies than the other way around so to claim that what we’ve gone through is “only a fraction” of what India has experienced is beyond absurd and factually incorrect.
//Do you mention the various terrorist attacks that have happened in Pakistan over the past several decades which Pakistan attributed to India. Do you mention India’s support for militancy in Sindh, Balochistan, AJK and East Bengal? Why do you hold Pakistanis to a different standard than yourselves?//
No international proof of Indias involvement in Sindh and Balochistsn militancy otherwise Pakistan would have been able to put India in the FATF list like India did because of Pakistans known involvement in 26/11. Furthermore, the worldover India is seen as supporting a freedom movement from West Pakistans tyranny. We did not train proxies who carried out terror attacks in bangladesh(say the right name please), and Pakistani armys own actions are too well known for you claim being victim of outside involvement.
/_Op Sindoor to you might just be an operation but to Pakistanis it was a military assault on our homeland leading to the death of several civilians, terrorizing people for 4 nights straight.//
So you know a fraction of what 26/11was for Indians and what the Pahalgam attack was like. India only attacked terrorist basis as you also agree is a proportional response. It is Pakistan that escalated it.
//Uh… you do realize India’s proxy wars aka dhurandar-ing has been going on in Pakistan for several decades? Indians seem to think that history started on 11/26/08. Pakistan has lost far more people both in absolute numbers and on a per capita basis to your proxies than the other way around so to claim that what we’ve gone through is “only a fraction” of what India has experienced is beyond absurd and factually incorrect.//
You do know that the Pakistani army sending militants to J and K is why that is a disputed territory and trying to take this militarily and failing to do so is why Pakistani armies is forced to use proxies, which unlike the proxies that you allege India has been using are proven everywhere as seen from Pakistan being in the FATF.
India broke Pakistan. Otherwise there would still be East Pakistan.
“say the right name please”– Don’t you dare lecture us.
India has been meddling in Balochistan for years. Manmohan Singh admitted as much at Sharm-el Sheikh.
Fortunately, Pakistan is now a nuclear weapon state. Not a single inch of the Islamic Republic will be lost ever again–no matter what India intends.
Why has Pakistan not been able to prove Indias link if we are really meddling?
Bangladesh seceded because they wanted to, there were no cross border training camps in India that spread anarchy in Bangladesh like in Kashmir.
The pakistani army own actions and atrocities that are well documented, led to the loss of east pakistan which is now bangladesh.
Good that Pakistan is a nuclear state, this way if any future secession does happen, and let me be clear I dont think Indian intelligence agencies want this to happen given how bangladesh is also quite anti India, it is not external intervention but internal failures that will be the main cause. Hope Pakistan learns from its mistakes in the past.
There will be no feature secession from the Islamic Republic. Remember you are dealing with a nuclear power.
Bangladesh is anti-India because Hasina was running a client regime. Your Home Minister calling Bangladeshis “termites” surely doesn’t endear you to them.
Cool I also dont want Pakistan to split up
And yes, many people in India should not use such language no matter their distaste. Hasina was not running a client regime on behalf of India but herself and her family, India gave much more than what it got out of Hasina.
Why has Hasina been given refuge in India?
She was an Indian client. Who are you kidding?
She was an Indian ally who were could depend on for some combating militants in northeast.
The fact that hasina is here despite her fumbles is proof that she got and continues to get more out of this relationship than India does. Bangladesh relationship with India has been badly damaged.
Bangladesh has a nasty history of politicized prosecution, and assassinations. The coup that ousted Hasina, even filed a case against Bangladesh’s greatest cricketer for ‘murder’, even though he was not even in the country.
So saying ‘yes’ to a fleeing Hasina isn’t exactly the open and shut ‘wrong’ thing as some seek to portray.
I don’t want her to be “lynched”. I never said that.
A court in Bangladesh has sentenced her for her actions. Ironically, it’s the same court she set up to persecute Jamaat-e-Islami.
She should be sent back to Bangladesh to face justice for ordering students to be shot to death.
But, of course, this won’t happen since she was an Indian proxy.
Hi as a mini-precedent
We will delete any exchange between
BB & Kabir
RNJ & Kabir
All parties are requested not to engage with each other. If there is something egregious, email it in!
We will remove any exchange we see between any of these parties going forward (Precedent).
Thank you. I have been asking for RNJ to be made to cease and desist for weeks.
You are like the US enforcing the ceasefire between India and Pakistan 🙂
I can understand the desire to …reduce moderation overhead. But not sure that this is the right approach for a site that wants open discussions.
This essentially empowers one side to continue spouting untruths and propaganda while muzzling the folks who dare challenge it.
The opposite of even-handed.
There are reams and reams of past data available to back my argument up. I don’t even need to rehash it. You know it, we all know it.
She is an ally not a proxy, it is not like india asked her to rig elections or commit violence on her own citizens, she will be killed though since she literally got a death penalty.
Anyways like many things it is her own actions that led to this. Indias fault is that put too much trust in her, blind trust at that without weighing a cost benefit analysis of what we are getting out of this relationship.
For what it’s worth, I am against death sentences. But she should be punished for her crimes.
“Proxy” may be a stretch but “client” is certainly a correct term no?
India was propping her up. India refused to deal with the BNP and always recognized Awami League’s sham election victories.
Anyway, as a Pakistani, India-Bangladesh relations are not really my primary concern.
Historically, whenever BNP was in power it was good for Pakistan. Awami League was always anti-Pakistan.
Hasina was an ally, along with deveopment aid, Bangladesh got cheaper petrol, cheaper electricity than what Indians paid, easy access to medical visas and above all her sham elections were recognized, not because she was our person, she also moved toward china when needed, undercut Indias textile industry and flirted with Islamists to deadly consequences for the hindus there.
India put up with her because an unfriendly bangladesh can cause a lot of security problems for India, not because she was our puppet, as I keep on mentioning Hasina got and continues to get more out of thei relationship than India does. It is just unfortunate that no one in India calls this out and no one in bangladesh or elsewhere can fathom India, a supposed big brother being so bad at basic things.
Many Bangladeshis believe Hasina was India’s puppet.
Of course you can disagree. I don’t want to belabor this.
Many Bangladeshis and Indians believe fantasies and caricatures of one another rather thsn admitting badic facts.
For many bangladeshi it is difficult to probably conceive of India as a friendly entity despite its role in their independence the fact that it is even displacing its own people to give you cheap electricity, gives you cheaper petrol than in India, allows you access to cheap medical care and is even willing to risk their own provinces drying up in order to allow you Teesta river water, among many others. Indians obviously dont want to call out having invested so much in Hasina for what it was because it reflects poorly on some people so this kind of misunderstanding persists.
Hasina was clearly India’s client. I don’t want to belabor this. As I said, India-Bangladesh relations are not really my main focus.
Currently, the BJP government in West Bengal is sending “illegal Bangladeshis” to Bangladesh at gunpoint. So I think you should cool it with counting how great India has been to Bangladesh.
India has helped bangladesh- this is a fact.
It is wrong to send people without veryfying properly– This is also a fact.
Callin Hasina a clinet would imply India directed her decisions but there is no proof that, neither did India ask hasina to give govt jobs to descendants of freedom fighter or attack on protestors with the police. THis is all on Hasina with no influence from India.
It is where all these conspiracy theories go wrong, try to find a hidden agenda of someone in stupid actions.
Many Bangladeshis have called Hasina an Indian client or puppet. You may not agree with them but this is a widespread perception there.
I didn’t argue anywhere that India made all her decisions. So that’s a disingenuous argument.
The perception that Hasina was an Indian puppet was heightened by the fact that after finding refuge in Delhi she continued speaking against the Interim Government. I haven’t been following this very closely so I’m not aware if she is now speaking against the elected BNP government.
Perception is not equivalent to reality. Many bangladeshi worldview of seeing India as a hostile power would collapse if they agree that India was also fooled by Hasina.
Saying that Hasina is a client or puppet us basically saying that India orchestrated her actions.
Her son who lives in UK also spoke against the interim government, is UK also interfering in bangladesh internals matters. The Perception of bangladeshi in this aspect is wrong
OK, last comment from me on this.
Would you agree that anti-India sentiment in Bangladesh has grown because of Hasina’s actions and the perception that she had India’s support?
Historically, Bangladesh has been quite pro-India.
Hasina has found refuge in India. As long as she’s there, that’s going to be a bone of contention between India and Bangladesh.
This thread now has close to 200 comments. This is the point at which threads grow unwieldy to navigate.
UK and the US were probably heavily involved in the uprising against Hasina fwiw
They say the same about the uprisings in Iran. Foreign actors will always exploit/take advantage of already existing fault lines and grievances – all countries do that, India does too. It’s literally how Bangladesh gained independence. That doesn’t negate her unpopularity nor does it invalidate the voices of millions of Bangladeshis who wanted her regime out.
very high signal comment
You really think actual facts and logic matter? No matter how reasonable and polite you are, or how factual you are – India, very bad very bad. Thats all she wrote. 😀
Bangladesh cricket team also got better than Pakistan.
Was poor during the interim government but BNP coming back has coincided with them being good again.
Anyways, Tarique will be the new “ally”.
No one prospers in the subcontinent without good relations with the country after which it is named.
Write more on Cricket..
You just assume that everyone will forget and ally like Iran..
These are all internal Pakistani issues and not proxies and I am not even trolling here.
Blaming all Pakistani internal insurgencies on India is like blaming Pakistan for Naxalism, an indigenous Indian movement. Of course there might be some logistic support for the Naxalites as that is the job of intelligence agencies but that is the same level of involvement India would have in Balochistan/KPK (if at all).
If anyone, it is Afghanistan/Iran that should come under the scanner due to having shared borders and sharing those ethnicities.
India’s Dhurandharing in Pakistan is involved in taking out terrorists aimed at India.
>Indians seem to think that history started on 11/26/08.
Erm, no it hasn’t. The kleptocrats who enslave Pakistan have been at it for years and years.
Starting with ‘direct action’ terrorism before 1947.
Sending raping pillaging ‘jihadis’ into Kashmir right after independence – ironically the very thing that made Kashmiris join India.
Pakistani terrorism in Kashmir and beyond is a despicably ugly blood-stained record from the 1980s into present day.
And no, “ISPR” accusations about Indian ‘involvement’ in internecine Pakistani violence does not make it “sem2sem”.
Afghanistan is not Indian territory and the Af-Pak border is not the Ind-Pak border.
That is an issue between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Nothing to do with India.
Pakistan has not been involved in Kashmir for well over a decade. Musharraf essentially turned his back on Kashmiri separatism and whatever violence that has occurred has been homegrown. There is a genuine fear that India may orchestrate another Pahalgham type false flag to use as a pretext to launch Op Sindoor 2.0 – which they’ve been talking about ever since the ceasefire last year, they also talk about taking land this time around. It’s as clear as day what’s being planned from south block.
I would refrain from calling Pahalgam a “false flag”. All one can say is that no evidence was presented to the international community linking that incident with Pakistan.
It’s your thread but I would advise you not to use deliberately provocative language.
There better not be a “Sindoor 2.0”– Pak Fauj is not playing.
Well they haven’t presented concrete evidence to the international community. The timing of the events, the military build up and exercises and policy changes in the 6-12 months leading up to Pahalgham and Op Sindoor does raise a lot of eyebrows. If you follow Kashmiri discussions on social media you’ll see how local Kashmiris have a lot of unanswered questions about what went on.
Hopefully there’s not another war but watching Indian media heads and defense analysts, they’re seriously talking about another war. They had their egos bruised on Day 1 of Op Sindoor after losing several jets so they will likely want to avenge that and change the outcome of the narrative war.
Of course there are lots of unanswered questions about Pahalgam.
There will not be another “Sindoor”. Khawaja Asif has made it clear many times that in the event of repeat provocations from India, Pakistan’s missiles can reach Calcutta.
Pak Fauj is not playing. And–in my opinion– they shouldn’t. Nothing and no one will ever be above the national security of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.
kwaja asif has said that his forefathers were Hindu. so he is not ashraff
Being an “ashraf” doesn’t matter in Pakistan or anywhere in the Muslim world, I’ve only ever heard these terms used by Indians to try to make it seem like Muslims have a similar caste system to Hindus when it just isn’t the case. In Islam, being a convert is seen as a positive and are welcomed with open arms in the community although somebodies ancestors converting several centuries ago wouldn’t count as a convert – they’re just a multigenerational Muslim at that point.
what is the difference between an ‘Ashraf’ and ‘Syed’
Ashraf is an Arabic name common among Muslims. Syed is an honorific title also used as a family name, it denotes descent from the Prophet’s daughter Fatima (RA).
ah ok. So what is considered ‘special’ about Ashrafs?
Nothing if you’re not brainwashed by Indian propaganda.
I asked a simple question, offering you the opportunity to shed light on a subject you would know more about. Why the unnecessary snark?
And best not to talk about propaganda when you assert that you “believe everything that ISPR says”. 🙂
That’s a pretty straightforward answer; I’ve only ever heard about the concept of ashrafs from Indians. There’s nothing special about being an Ashraf or an Akram.
I never said that, I think you’re confusing me with someone else.
Many ‘forefathers’ of ‘Ashraf Muslims’ were also Hindu, they simply claim foriegn descent from the paternal line – which in Islam is all what matters when determining tribe.
The fact that this needs to be repeated again and again shows the caste system is not going away in India, as intermarriage between castes seems to be an alien concept for Indians.
Islam is a scriptural religion, and as per scripture no individual and no tribe has an elevated status in Islam unless they have ‘taqwa’ (religious piety).
So all this nonsense that Indians peddle about ‘converted’ and ‘original’ Muslims in the hope that it may cause offense – no it does not cause offense. All Muslims are ‘converted’ Muslims including Arabs who worshiped idols.
Converted and original thing is nonsense but caste system does exist among subcontinental muslims.
It is strange to see you and others deny that.
instead of objective honest discussion, when one takes the approach of circling tribal wagons and ‘attacking the other’, while stubbornly defending ‘yours’, then it only leads to such froth.
Yes it does because its an Indian phenomenon and an inheritance from Hinduism. Hindus were still the majority in India and lower castes who converted to Islam were still seen as lower castes due by the society at large due to their profession so their position was maintained.
The feudal system of distinction between landholders and peasants is still alive and kicking in Pakistan. However this Ashraf/non-Ashraf based distinction and profession based caste system by and large does not exist in Pakistan (it may have done historically for the same reason mentioned above) but not now. You will have some minority groups still doing sewage work based on caste, but for 95% of the society the distinction is between tribes in Punjab and Sindh, while the distinction is between Syed-NonSyed in more urban ”Ashraf” areas. I belong to what you call ”Ashraf” caste and I heard this term the first time from Indians online at age 19. Even the Syed -nonSyed distinction is overblown.. they intermarry quite often
One way in which caste is said to express itself is in certain groups having over representation in control of religious and cultural insititutions. Since formerly upper caste people in islam and christianity control much of the major religious institutions, it is proof of presence of caste there.
Excluding sufi shrines which are generally hereditary by nature are other religious institutions, dominates by a wide cross section of groups?
yes but Sufi masters intermarried with the daughters of chieftains so they embedded themselves
Apologies, that wasn’t you. My mistake.
On the ahsraf thing, this is what a quick search pulls up – I am quite unaware of this stuff, but it seems there is more to this than you are asserting?
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13602000902943542
The worst discrimination is sometimes the most invisible.
So yes Pakistan in some ways is even more defined by caste than India since it is completely invisible and papered over.
Who are Dhobi & Malli but hereditary castes?
In my experience, punjab-pakistanis used casteist slurs in almost exactly the same manner as north indians. (not trying to assert some kind of virtue to south or east indians by contrast, but our endemic casteism is delivered with a different tone)
I remember seeing a copy of the F I R in imran Khan’s shooting, mentioning the shooter’s ‘zat’ as ahir.
Casteist slurs are actually part of language now. People using them half the time don’t even know they are castes or definitely do not intend it that way.
For the longest time, I didn’t even know calling someone Bhangi and Dhobi were casteist slurs, because these words in vernacular Urdu now literally just mean ‘garbage collector’ and ‘laundry worker’.. Punjabi has the word ”choora” for the same even though this is a caste.
How can “Dhobi” be considered a “casteist” slur?
A dhobi is a washerman. This is a profession. “Mali” is a gardener.
“Choora” is definitely an insult. It refers to Christians who were formerly Dalits.
Anyway, there is no such thing as “caste” in Islam– unlike Hinduism where the system has religious sanction.
What we have in Pakistan are kinship groups called “biradris”.
Even if one argues that “caste” exists in Pakistan, it’s because of the Hindu influence. One doesn’t find this phenomenon among Arabs–the originators of Islam.
Because in south asia, jobs were given according to caste, otherwise if this was not to stigmatize people who would be exposed to dirt why exactly is dhobhi a insult to begin with.
In India, also chapri which is roof maker is also an insult similar to Dhobi and bangi.
I thought “Dhobi” could be an insult because it is not a profession which requires education. It is considered low-class.
Social class definitely exists in Pakistan. “Caste” as such doesn’t. Caste has religious sanction in Hinduism. In Islam, all believers are equal in the eyes of Allah.
I have reviewed Sujatha Gidla’s book Ants Among Elephants: An Untouchable Family and the Making of Modern India. You might find the review of relevance in this discussion.
https://kabiraltaf.substack.com/p/ants-among-elephants-a-portrait-of
//Caste has religious sanction in Hinduism. In Islam, all believers are equal in the eyes of Allah.//
Caste does exist in Pakistan.
It is time to talk about caste in Pakistan and Pakistani diaspora | Opinions | Al Jazeera
“Caste” does not have religious sanction in Islam.
This is a fundamental difference between Islam and Hinduism.
Even Indian christians, and I myself used to say this, until I read how dalit christians experience faith and religion.
While what you say is correct, practise and belief is not just a scriptural thing, if is also a cultural thing and when many people are casteist, it does reflect in the institution itself. In India though specially in the south,the dalit christisns have done quite a lot to push back against this casteism despite the taunts that they face from upper caste christians and others, resulting in this promise actually meaning something on the ground.
Has something similar happened in Pakistan where at least the religious institutions not based on descent are becoming more representative.
Read my review of Sujatha Gidla’s book. She is a Dalit Christian.
If there is “caste” in Pakistan, it reflects the Hindu influence. Proper Muslims (Arabs) don’t have caste.
And those Muslim castes exist in India too (Pakistanis are at the end Indian Muslims) and reservations are also given accordingly.
Dr William Barylo from the UK explaining it where he has witnessed the phenomenon amongst UK Muslims (of which Pakistanis are a huge part).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAbzaliQKs0
Invoking an English Prof to explain in Pak is peak post-colonialism..
South asians abroad seem to be in even deeper bubbles than their community members back home so in many ways it is only a foreigner who can bring things like this up, though I do wonder if there are not under privileged groups in the UK or they themselves have perhaps not experienced casteism like under privelged groups from India allege they have.
I mean, Pakistanis love quoting Audrey Truschke and Sam Dalrymple.
As per XTM it is a casteist slur like Bhangi and Choora
For many of us its just language now
Yes presumably then this could be a “false flag” as well by the same token.
Everyone should stay calm and keep their heads together, even in the face of tragedy.
As I said, I object to the use of “false flag”.
I am capable of disagreeing with other members of the “Crescentiate”.
//There is a genuine fear that India may orchestrate another Pahalgham type false flag to use as a pretext to launch Op Sindoor 2.0 – which they’ve been talking about ever since the ceasefire last year, they also talk about taking land this time around. It’s as clear as day what’s being planned from south block.//
Have some shame, please.
Have some shame about what your country does in Balochistan and your support to the TTP in Afghanistan.
India is a hostile power and has always been so. Pakistan should not tolerate this for a single moment.
//Have some shame about what your country does in Balochistan and your support to the TTP in Afghanistan.//
What is the proof that India supports any activities in Balochistan?
//India is a hostile power and has always been so. Pakistan should not tolerate this for a single moment.//
India is only acting reactively,not proactively as the Pakistani military is doing so in case of kashmiri militancy, and terrorist attacks like 26/11 which have been proven withoit doubt.
India didn’t give Pakistan its share of British India’s money. Gandhi ji had to go on a fast in order for that money to be given to Pakistan.
We are well aware of all the history going back to 1947 (and before). Don’t act like we are stupid.
“Where is the proof that India supports any activities in Balochistan”? ISPR knows what you all are doing.
Where is the proof linking Pakistan to Pahalgam?
I dont think Pakistan is linked to Pahalgam, but one of the numerous proxies definitely are.
So basically even after getting the money that you were owed for which Gandhi is hated and insulted as the reason for not giving it was failure to quell violence against non muslims, Pakistan still attacked Gilgit-Baltistian to take over the state of Jammu and Kashmir, ultimately causing Hari Singh to sign the instrument of accession.
Anyways I am aware that the actions of Dogras on Jammu muslims is one of the reasons, why this attack happend, and this is similar to Indias own reasoning in Junagadh and Hyderabad state so wont argue too much on this. The events of 1947 dont justify the later pakistani supported cross border terrorism.
You clearly don’t understand the concept of Disputed Territory.
The Muslims of GB never wanted to be part of Hindu India. Don’t speak about GB.
I know what a disputed territory is and what ia the reason for it being so.
Yes if give a choice most of the GB and maybe even most of Kashmir would have chosen Pakistan like Sylhet in Bangaldesh, I did a small reread on the circumstances surrounding how princely states joined India or Pakistan, the ones that did not choose one or the other did face military action and the support of significant section of populace for India or Pakistan settled any future issues one way or another.
GB did have a military mutiny in favor of Pakistan, while the issue was never properly put to test in Kashmir.
Kashmiris (both Muslim and Pandit) under National Conference fought on the side of Indian forces alongside the Maharaja’s.
Jammu and Kashmir, like Punjab and Bengal in 1948 was also “partitioned”.
Pakistani desire for Srinagar is as untoward as Indian desire for say Lahore.
GB was part of the Dogra’s state. The people of GB have no ethnic kinship with Kashmiris. Frankly, they neither like Kashmiris nor Dogras.
Anyway, GB has never and will never be part of Hindu India.
Re-litigating partition is not happening. Borders are not getting re-drawn. Pakistan army has tried and failed multiple times, and they know quite well that its not happening. However, keeping this ‘dispute’ alive, gives them the perfect excuse to continue lording it over their Jaagir and continue to reap the fruits of kleptocracy.
“Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose”
From Ayub to Yahya to Zia to Mush to Munir. Its the same topi drama.
Its just astounding to me that ostensibly literate folks keep falling for it, not just falling, but rabid apologists for their own exploitation.
The only thing that I can agree with, in this troll of an ‘open thread post’, is that there are a non-trivial number of social media ‘handles’ that do in fact gleefully discuss the violence playing out in Pakistan today. Which I think is beyond the pale.
Its the mirror image of ‘peak Zaid Hamid’. And an embarrassment to all rational Indians. But like you said, there is a LOT of baggage and bad blood, and close-minded tribal definitions of patriotism that result in incentivizing such trash.
I will point out that its a minority of Indians though. The trouble with perception is that when encountering such a vocal minority, I am not surprised that the likes of EK end up extrapolating. The fact is that when terror incidents happened in Pakistan, like the APS school incident, so many Indians all over India lit candles in solidarity.
That goodwill, unfortunately has been squandered by 30+ years of Pakistani policy choices. And no amount of pretending can wash over that historical fact.
Pakistan army has failed to take the entirety of Kashmir despite trying 3 times. However they just need to win once. If India ever loses Kashmir, it’s never getting it back because the population is hostile to it and their will be no political will to re-capture a Muslim majority state.
The entire story about keeping this Indian feud alive does not make sense. This is Indian propaganda hat a lot of Pakistan liberals had swallowed before Operation Sindoor as well.
It may have been true long time ago in the 60’s but its not any more. The Pakistan army is well entreched everywhere in the country and is now directly useful for many regional actors in the Middle East and beyond. They don’t need a hostile India to justify their size. However India is hostile and will remain so. I don’t think there will be any long lasting peace because the fundamental ideological differences are now too wide.
We used to make fun of Zaid Hamid 20 years ago, but in the end, he was right.
Keep drinking that Zaid koolaid 🙂
From an Indian perspective, its a win. Because with the military in charge, Pakistan is guaranteed not to be much more than a minor irritant. I mean, Imagine if Pakistan could have done what South Korea did in the late 20th century. Given the American backing, it had a chance, but blew it.
Choosing hate and hostility instead of development, just means India has a feckless hostile neighbor instead of a competent one…
Oh we definitely do not want to be like South Korea.
I do wish you guys be like South Korea.
If you know, you know.
When a country with the population of India becomes like South Korea, it is not South Korea but something else.
If you know, you know.
Pakistan with its population curve will at max reach 1/3rd of India’s population before its own decline and that too at the end of the century.
And by then the economic differential will already be huge.
I call cap.
Bro any pakistani who has actually lived and worked in S. Korea will definitely want to br as rich and influential as them. I dont think any businessmen in Pakistan would not want to be a Chaebol
People living outside Pakistan enjoying first world amenities can glorifying high TFRs amongst Pakistani women, but for actual Pakistanis it is a massive pain point leading to poverty and economic backwardness.
Fertility rates are converging all around the world to our knowledge ..
Yes they are. Fertility rates have everything to do with income not with religion.
It is certain members of the Crescentiate who fantasize about “Islam” overriding this very natural phenomenon of “demographic collapse” (their words, not mine) and thus overpowering the world.
Consider economic growth/low TFR the demographic is getting less hostile year by year. So better make an attempt quick (before failing again).
Mauka Mauka.
And again it is the foolish Pakistani belief that an attack on Kashmir means India will keep the war confined there because it is “disputed”.
Or maybe think critically? Ask your government questions? Questioning the government and media is considered a form of patriotism in America.
Indian governments have proved Pakistans role in 26/11 and kashmiri militancy.
There is no reason why India would do such an attack, and please I have criticized my country’s media and government when needed, see my conversation with other Indians here.
Not in “your” Pakistan though. 😀
Where does the “patriotism” disappear then?
I love how you switch between “American” and “Pakistani” according to convenience.
Think critically? How many Pakistani jernails have faced investigation for “assets disproportionate to their income”?
Why is Imran Khan in prison? Mehrang Baloch?
Why is Pakistan unable to prosecute the 26/11 criminals, 18 years after the fact? Why was Nawaz Sharif exiled and persecuted for asking this question in “Dawn Leaks”?
What achievements led to Asim Munir anointing himself as “Field Marshal” – a title that is historically earned by Military leaders who win wars, or are Pakistani Dictators.
How many thousands of innocent Baloch youth have been “disappeared” and outright murdered by “security forces” in Balochistan, in the 21st century?
Discussions of such questions would be indeed patriotic.
Why is
Imran KhanSharjeel Imam in prison?Mehrang BalochUmar Khalid?How many thousands of innocent
BalochKashmiri youth have been “disappeared” and outright murdered by “security forces” inBalochistanKashmirYeah, they don’t want to discuss Umar Khalid and Sharjeel Imam.
Their country imprisons the flower of Muslim youth–including PhD candidates
Their Army disappears Kashmiri Muslim men and rapes Kashmiri Muslim women.
But hey, let’s cast aspersions on Pakistan. It’s much easier than examining issues at home.
Pakistanis have been oppressing, murdering and “disappearing” the Baloch since 1947. Blaming India is just the usual fig leaf for the incompetency of the kleptocrats who control Pakistan. This is what, the 5th generation of the Baloch that are fighting against Pakistani oppression?
I would not associate regular Baloch people with these insurgent groups that are backed, funded, trained and incited by the Government of India. There are genuine grievances among the Baloch as well several other groups and communities in Pakistan however terrorism is not a solution and most Baloch do not support these actions. If anything, many of the innocents dying are Baloch themselves, serving in the frontier corps and the various paramilitary units with voluntary forces from virtually every Baloch tribe.
where is Mehrang Baloch? Where is Ali Wazir?
The only thing Pakistani army is good at is building housing societies and throwing Baloch young men out of helicopters to murder them.
Unlike you I’m not a blind nationalist, I don’t support all of the inhumane actions of my country. I don’t believe in imprisoning people you disagree with unless there’s damning evidence for treason, foreign collusion/espionage or involvement in criminal activities etc even then there’s no need to make a martyr out of someone to give more momentum to their movement. A simple gag order/deplatforming is better than imprisonment or violence.
Sounds like projection as those seem more like the actions the Indian army has committed in Jammu & Kashmir.
Yes.
Remember when the Indian Army tied a Kashmiri young man to a tank to make an example of him?
Indian trains have been recently targeted by arson and bomb attacks. Gee I wonder why.
Dear all,
We can appreciate the shock and anger at this attack on a Holy Day and we sympathise however we would also caution everyone from using inflammatory and accusatory language.
Unless a foreign power is shown to be behind the attack; there is no point in simply condemning.
Let us all be collegiate. We would like all of the Commentariat to centre innocent lives (whichever hue they may be) in their approach.
“Unless a foreign power is shown to be behind the attack”– Presumably this applies to the “Saffroniate” insisting Pakistan was behind Pahalgam? We are still waiting for a credible investigation 12 months later. Instead, India breached Pakistan’s territorial integrity–an absolute red line.
If the “Saffroniate” can accuse Pakistan of terrorism the “Crescentiate” can accuse India of the same.
.
There you go.
Anti-Modi comments get edited.
Vile language against my Field Marshal does not.
EK presumably has editorial rights on this thread; we won’t be moderating this unless asked to.
Just fair warning to all parties.
@El Khawaja: Please remove any nasty references to the Field Marshal.
Anti Pak Fauj language should be an absolute red line for any patriotic Pakistani.
Hey man, I might think about it but I’m not a fan of moderation, deletion or editing comments at all. I don’t let that stuff get to me. I’d rather people show their true colors. Internet comment sections and forums are like a time capsule, I’d rather have a better record of who I’m speaking to than editing or deleting comments. RNJ’s disgusting and childish language reflects on him and who he represents; by allowing him to be himself it also gives us the leeway to respond in a similar vein. Keeping public comments the way they are for record keeping and knowing who you’re dealing with is better in my opinion – that’s my personal credos. The only time I agree with bans and moderation in a forum is if there is a blatant coordinated effort at astroturfing/disinfo or any disrespect towards religious figures.
Of course, it’s your thread. You are free to moderate as you wish.
I don’t think there should any quarter given to anti Pak Army language and specifically language against the Field Marshal. But that’s just my opinion.
Haha isn’t he one of your Buddhist monks? What have you got to say about it after name ascribing everything that goes wrong in India to Hindu culture?
NDG-Sbarr is like Q-BB or Kabir-RNJ | seems like C-EK
it’s these pairings that make BP erm “special” hehe (allow us the joke!)
XTM, the next Dana White? lol
While Shahrukh’s most famous pairing is with Kajol, he also has had decent outings with Juhi Chawla and Deepika Padukone.
I enjoy my interactions with the other members of the Crescentiate too.
And I guess that makes RNJ “Singham” Ajay Devgn.
One who wears robes are not always pure.The big temples are money family making business
No different from Hindu kovils
While Indian intelligence agencies might be involved in Balochistan/KPK, the lack of a common border means it will at best be logistic support, if at all. BLA/TTP are very much an indigenous thing. The correct analog would be Pakistan supporting insurgencies in the Northeast.
Pakistan’s support of terrorism in Kashmir is at a different level with terrorist explicitly trained in Pakistan, including mostly non-Kashmiris.
India’s Dhurandharing in Pakistan is involved in taking out India centric terrorists in Punjab, Karachi, Pakistani Kashmir (many of whom are/were Indians in the first place).
BLA/TTP activities whether now or in the late 2000s has nothing to do with India.
Why do people automatically jump to the conclusion that India was involved in the Balochistan attack? From google search. “Former CIA analyst Larry Johnson has discussed the geopolitical dynamics of the Balochistan region, alleging that Israel maintains covert intelligence ties with the Baloch Liberation Army (BLA) to destabilize Pakistan and pressure it over regional diplomacy. [1, 2]
His commentary specifically connects to several broader, overlapping events:
As this is an open thread, I thought it would be interesting to share the following anecdote. During a night out with cousins, none of whom are orthodox or politically hindu , i learned that less than a week ago, 4 cows were stolen from their farm near Bangalore. There’s an open case with the police about it, but it’s evidently not uncommon in the weeks prior to Bakrid, and there are locally well known, politically shielded gangs that do these things. The area “sweep” and interrogation of suspects and the possible involvement of rival gangs that specialise in recovery of assets or establishing future deterrence where the cops display no agency, will appear to the outside world as proximal to the culture of beef lynching. As someone who eats beef in India and wants to see laws that permit it to continue, this is also a small example of how headline narratives miss a ton of the nuances of street politics.
Oh that’s just shocking ..
“As someone who eats beef in India” 😱
[…] fact, there was a post regarding this bleeding last […]