
As promised I wanted to write on the ongoing argument about Provinces of Pakistan. Mohsin Naqvi lit it in July by declaring the system of governance collapsed. On 10 September the parliamentary affairs minister, Tariq Fazal Chaudhry, said Parliament would debate new provinces in October. Two days later Rana Sanaullah said the decision belonged to Parliament, with a referendum to follow if a joint sitting approved one. Sindh’s assembly had already passed a resolution on 3 September rejecting any division of the province, and Saraiki nationalists said in August that their claim to a province is older than any administrative tidy-up.
The argument is framed as administration. Punjab has 127 million people; should it be split? The better question is what Punjab is. The province Pakistan inherited in 1947 had already been remade once. The British had moved Punjabi cultivators, including large numbers of Sikh Jats and Muslim agriculturalists from the crowded central and eastern districts, into its west. Partition moved more. The middle of the old continuum was increasingly counted as Punjabi, while Pakistan put Urdu above it. The latest census suggests that linguistic hierarchy is still reshaping how Punjab identifies itself.
What Grierson found
George Grierson gave the western speech forms of Punjab the collective name Lahnda, literally “western”. Nobody called their own language that. They said Multani, Siraiki, Hindki, Jatki, Shahpuri. Grierson admitted it: Punjabis had no general name for the group and might at most say lahnde di boli, the speech of the west.
The 1929 Jhang District Gazetteer says local Jangli and Punjabi are the same language, then lists the differences from the Punjabi of the Majha, including the future and the passive, and sends the reader to grammars of Western Punjabi, Jatki and Multani rather than Lahore. Northern Jhang leaned towards Majhi, southern Jhang towards Multan. That is a continuum. Grierson still mapped the Lahnda of Jhang and Lyallpur, of Shahpur, of Montgomery, and varieties in Gujranwala, apart from Punjabi proper. Later linguists took his taxonomy apart and reassigned those varieties to Western Punjabi, Saraiki, Hindko or Pothohari. The old map highlights that a century ago linguists drew a frontier between central Punjabi and the western speech forms. Today’s census draws none through the middle.
The British moved Punjab west
Geography did that initially. The Majha around Lahore and Amritsar sits on an ecological hinge, with rain, wells and old cultivation to the east and, to the west and south-west, the great uplands between the rivers, the Bars, where dry scrub and limited water supported much lower population densities. Settlement thinned with the rainfall. The speech patterns also shifted from Lahore into the Sandal Bar around Jhang.
Then the canals came. From the late nineteenth century the canal colonies turned the Bars into some of the most productive farmland in Asia, and the colonial state filled them with cultivators from the crowded central and eastern districts. The British did not merely irrigate western Punjab. They moved Punjab into it. By 1901 the Chenab Colony had a net gain of more than half a million people from elsewhere in the province: more than 100,000 from Sialkot, more than 50,000 each from Jullundur, Montgomery and Amritsar, and tens of thousands more from Hoshiarpur, Lahore, Gurdaspur, Gujrat, Ludhiana and Ferozepur. By 1911 Lyallpur district held more than 600,000 immigrants. Migrants from Amritsar, Jullundur, Gurdaspur, Hoshiarpur and Ludhiana in the Chenab Colony alone rose from 221,445 in 1901 to 280,232 in 1911.
Lyallpur, now known as Faisalabad, was a new society built on the Sandal Bar by planned migration. Majhi did not replace Jangli; settlers spoke several Punjabi varieties, local speech survived, and Sialkot was as big a source as any district across the later border. However Western Punjab was being peopled from the east and north at the moment irrigation dissolved an ecological barrier that had helped keep its old speech map in place.
Partition did it again
Western Punjab then absorbed one of the largest forced migrations in modern history. Pippa Virdee’s reading of the 1951 census puts migrants at 46 per cent of Lyallpur district, 39 per cent of Montgomery, 39 per cent of Lahore and 20 per cent of Bahawalpur State. Many who reached Lyallpur came from East Punjab districts that already had family and colony ties to the canal lands. Work on the Lyallpuri variety records the mass settlement after 1947 of Punjabi speakers from India around Lahore, Sahiwal, Faisalabad and Gujranwala.
Faisalabad-Lyallpur captures this story in one city. A Jangli-speaking Bar; a British canal and hundreds of thousands of settlers; the departure of its Hindus and Sikhs in 1947 and the arrival of Muslim refugees from the east; then an industrial boom pulling in still more. Local, migrant and urban speech ran together, the line colonial linguists had drawn between Punjabi and Lahnda became harder still to draw, and the census called the middle Punjabi. The 2023 census returns 67 per cent of Punjab as Punjabi-speaking, 20.64 per cent Saraiki and 7.18 per cent Urdu; in Faisalabad Division 15.3 million of 16.2 million people were counted as Punjabi speakers. Contrast that with Grierson’s Lahnda of Jhang and Lyallpur. He mapped a Lahnda of Shahpur too; Shahpur essentially became Sargodha district in 1960, and in 2023 it returned 3.93 million Punjabi speakers out of 4.33 million. Nobody in Faisalabad or Sargodha swapped Jhangochi or Shahpuri for Majhi overnight. The box changed as much as the speech.
Three fates for Lahnda
If Pakistan had simply Punjabified the Lahnda zone, Saraiki would not exist. In the south-west the opposite happened. Multani, Bahawalpuri, Derawali and their neighbours converged over the twentieth century on one name, Saraiki, and whatever the linguistic line between Saraiki and Punjabi, the political result is beyond argument: the 2023 census counts more than 26 million Saraiki speakers in Punjab, a fifth of the province.
So the old Lahnda country had three fates. Its centre, Jhang, Faisalabad, Sargodha and the country around them, went into the Punjabi box. Its south became Saraiki. Its north-west kept Hindko and Pothohari. Grierson’s Lahnda broke apart, in the classification and in politics. That is why the Saraiki province keeps coming back. The province called Punjab contains regions whose entry into a single Punjabi identity was never completed.
Urdu on top
Pakistan could Punjabify the classification of Jhangochi without making Punjabi the language of the state, because above Punjabi sat Urdu. Colonial Punjab had already put Urdu in the school and the courthouse; Pakistan inherited the hierarchy and made it national. Article 251 makes Urdu the national language and leaves provinces free to promote their own. Punjab’s own cultural-policy documents concede that Urdu and English hold the domains of power, in government, education, media and business, and a British Council study describes the same ladder: Urdu and English at the top of schooling, mother tongues below.
The census measures what people say their mother tongue is. Between 2017 and 2023 the share of Punjab calling Urdu its mother tongue rose from 4.87 per cent to 7.18, nearly half again, while Punjabi fell from 69.67 to 67.00. Whether the households changed their speech or their answer, it speaks to the hierarchy implicit in contemporary Pakistani society.
Razib once used the Rohingya as an example of how a population can remain linguistically close to a larger neighbour while acquiring a separate identity because it sits outside the institutions that created the larger identity. Something similar, though much less dramatic, happened along Punjab’s north-western edge. Hindko remained close to Punjabi while becoming a name people could organise an identity around. Shah Rukh Khan’s paternal family, for example, came from Peshawar’s Hindko-speaking population even though Khan himself has described the family as Pathan (like his co-Khans, Mahira, Fawad and Ayub, he is probably a very distant but completely Urdufied Pathan).
So Punjab has three storeys. On the ground, the actual vernaculars: Majhi, Doabi, Jhangochi, Shahpuri, Pothohari, the Saraiki varieties and dozens more. Above them, Punjabi as the regional identity for most of the province. Above that, Urdu, with English in a narrower room at the top. Pakistan Punjabified Lahnda and Urdufied Punjab at the same time.
The ghost in the provinces debate
October’s debate will be conducted as administration. Saraiki activists answered the latest proposals by pointing to a movement decades old, to earlier parliamentary action and to a distinct identity, and Khawaja Asif invoked the Saraiki province this month while attacking the PPP for inconsistency on the question.
The roots are older than any of them. Pakistan’s provincial map froze what its speech map never did. A century ago the picture was Majhi around Lahore and Amritsar, transitional speech across the Rachna and Chaj doabs, Jatki and Jangli across the Bars, Multani and Bahawalpuri to the south, Hindko and Pothohari to the north. Canals moved people, Partition moved them again, the census changed its boxes, Urdu climbed above all of them, and one fragment of the old western continuum found a name strong enough to ask for a province. The border divided Punjab and then changed what Punjabi means on the side that stayed Pakistan by appealing to both Urdu supremacy and Majha hegemony (in a way being more conservative and true to the colonial era than Indian Punjab).
The border divided Punjab and then changed what Punjabi meant on the side that stayed Pakistan. Indian Punjab put Punjabi in charge of its own province in 1966, as a proxy for Sikhism. Pakistan was the more conservative: it preserved the colonial hierarchy in which Urdu stood above Punjabi, even as the Punjabi label expanded westward over speech forms the colonial linguists had classified separately.

New provinces debate may take eight months, says PM’s aide
https://www.dawn.com/news/2029786
Punjab cannot be divided unless a two thirds majority of the Punjab Assembly votes for this. As long as PML-N is in power, this will not happen.
This whole debate is only happening because Pak Fauj wants to cut the Sharifs and Bhutto Zardaris down to size. No self-respecting political party is going to vote away its own power.
Pakistan’s provinces were not made on a linguistic basis. The boundaries were created by the British and are on an ethnic basis. For the record, I don’t agree with provinces being created on an ethnic basis since it undermines national unity. We are one nation not four separate fiefdoms and we need to start acting like it.
If Urdu were not the national language, the alternative would be Punjabi. This would make the smaller provinces even more upset than they already are. Punjabis sacrificed our own language for the cause of Pakistan.
Many people consider Punjabi to be a degraded form of Urdu (which is factually incorrect). There are policies in place in private schools in Punjab forbidding students to speak Urdu–what to say about Punjabi.
Punjabi can be seen as Khari Boli meeting Lahnda; hence it’s closes to Hindustani (Punjabi stems from the East).
also ethnicity and language do tend to coincide. probably Bahawalpur and Multan would be good provinces.
also Punjabis are 40% of South Punjab because of Partition so it’s complex.
it’s best to track geography where one can. also if Sindh hadn’t been separated in 1936; it’s conceivable that Sindh-Punjab would have been one Province.
Sindh was separated from Bombay.
It was never part of Punjab.
I think any city that crosses a certain population threshold (let’s say 1 million) should be made a province. So Lahore province, Karachi province, Rawalpindi province etc.
Provinces should not be on an ethnic basis since this undermines national unity.
Karachi should definitely be made a separate entity. It should have stayed as the Capital of Pakistan.
Apparently the urban legend goes, the wealth of pre-1971 East Pakistan went to building Islamabad.
also Karachi had a much more cosmopolitan mix..
I don’t think a country’s capital should be at the southern edge.
Islamabad is far more centrally located. It’s also right next to GHQ (military headquarters) which is important.
In China, any city that crosses a certain population threshold becomes a province.
This Op-Ed was published in today’s DAWN:
Maleeha Lodhi is a centrist and her views are usually close to those of the establishment.
“Political disconnect”
https://www.dawn.com/news/2029799
Personally, I’m not against the creation of new administrative units but it needs to be done with consensus. If there is no demand from the provinces themselves, there is no reason to impose this on people.
Provincial governments in Pakistan are run like sovereign countries and fiefdoms of political parties (PML – Punjab, PTI – KP and PPP – Sindh) and these parties dominated by each ethnic group are basically depriving others (deliberately or not) by not devolving power down to local levels. Significant amount of people in these provinces want more autonomy to run their basic civic affairs but this will not be allowed by the whales sitting at the top of the provincial governments.
More provinces are a neccessity in Pakistan. Whether provinces like it or not.
If AM wants to rule like an authoritarian, then he should be bulldozing these reforms through the bureaucratic wall.. It’s high time he should provide us with benefits of authoritarianism.. and not just the downsides
it probably does require some rethinking..
I agree that provincial governments are run like fiefdoms of political parties. The provinces have ethnic majorities. This is not good for national unity. For me, national unity trumps everything. All of us need to put the Islamic Republic of Pakistan first and consider it as far more important than Punjab, Sindh, etc.
However,changing a province’s boundaries requires a two-thirds majority in the concerned provincial assembly. This is not going to happen.
Why would PML-N vote to deprive itself of power?
As Maleeha Lodhi noted in her Op-Ed, this is not really an issue that the citizens care about. This is transparently a scheme of the “establishment” to cut the Bhuttos and Sharifs down to size.
I am a huge supporter of Pak Fauj. However, administrative restructuring is not their job.
I removed your last sentence as it was unnecessarily provocative
Isn’t the job of any country’s army to defend the territorial integrity of the country?
We can always have new rigged elections.
The 2024 election had people who got 1,200 votes beat candidates who got 100,000 votes, by just adding a couple of zeroes to the 1,200 during the night.
Magical things can happen if there is will.
The soft bigotry of low expectations is damning in Pakistanis, especially the rightwing.
Why is it that Pakistan is written off as ‘a lost cause and ungovernable’ unless rescued by a uniform wearing “hero”?
Pakistan is a nation of quick fixes, which work temporarily until they don’t
https://www.brownpundits.com/2026/09/05/open-thread-zardari-in-self-imposed-exile-new-provinces-to-be-made/#comment-145726
I came to the same conclusion.
>Provincial governments in Pakistan are run like sovereign countries and fiefdoms of political parties
Entire Pakistan is run like a fiefdom of the PakMil – yes or no?
The incentives driving ‘reorg’ will inevitably drive outcomes. Reorganizing provinces for ‘better’ governance may be desirable, but when the process is designed to ….neuter other fiefdoms in order to expand the central one, expecting… local autonomy and better governance is a foolish pipe dream, or propaganda fig leaf – both actually.
I think the Military has built in limits to power..
when it comes to politics, administration and governance – what exactly are its “limits”?
I mean its fine to pretend to have a Prime minister etc – but any and all meaningful meetings for diplomacy are with Muneer.
When it comes to the budget, PakMil simply takes what it wants.
When it comes to “elections” – we all know there are no limits for PakMil.
So I ask you again, what are these ‘built in limits’ that we are supposed to pretend they exist?
Pak Fauj has wanted to reduce provincial power forever. The “One Unit” scheme was the big example. “West Pakistan” was a province as was East Pakistan. The provinces of West Pakistan ceased to exist.
But “One Unit” had to be removed and Punjab, Sindh etc had to be brought back.
I have no issue with new provinces being created but this has to be done in a constitutional manner. Unlike in India, in Pakistan, a province cannot be divided unless two-thirds of the concerned provincial assembly agrees to it.
No, provinces have a lot of power in Pakistan, and get most of the funding especially after the 18th amendment. And yet they have failed spectacularly in delivering any progress in areas under their control (education, infrastructure, health, environment, local government etc)
I think you are spouting rubbish again. Please provide data to back up your ridiculous claim that provinces get “most of the funding”.
I think they should really think about the Restoration of the Princely States.. they would be far better administrators under checks and balances..
There are no takers for that.
A country cannot be a Republic (Islamic or otherwise) while having princes.
yes Monarchies, especially the Constitutional kinds, are very good form of governments fwiw..
Well, no one in Pakistan wants that.
We are an Islamic Republic. Republic being the key word.
Well Immy the not-so-dim was onto something with his ‘new medina’ rhetoric – The only feasible way for Pakistan to ‘reform’ is to cloak and market modernization in Islamic garb and rhetoric.
I still think a chastened Imran coming back to power, even as a figurehead with …decent lieutenants is Pakistan’s best bet for some semblance of normalcy and progress…
possibly who knows what the backdoor negotiations are.
but tbh putting him in solitary is only making him stronger and wiser
this is a “Gandhi” moment
was thinking Mandela. But sure. 🙂
I think Immmy was misled into being ‘patriotic’ and attacking the “Muuuudi” with OTT public rhetoric – he likely did so to burnish his credentials with PakMil.
Now that his ‘sponsors’ turned on him, if he ever makes it back to leading Pak, I think he’ll view rapprochement with India a lot more diferently.
Or at least one can hope.
Sasta Mandela…
tbh it is sad how the greatest sportsman ever from Pakistan, a former PM, is being humiliated.
But he and his band of losers had no love for Endia and Vishwaguru Muudi ji so we can jeer at youthias.
Imran played with the big boys and is reaping what he sowed. Safaid Buttck Zarwari Sa’ab spent 11 years in jail, Imran imprisoned him for 6 months in 2019. Sharif spent 3 years in jail. Imran’s youthias gasp for air at barely the three year mark of his imprisonment. Jokes aside, it would be sad if he goes blind.
Imran Khan is never coming back to power. He’ll be lucky if he ever gets out of jail.
May 9, 2023 was unforgivable. One cannot incite one’s followers to attack Pakistan’s military installations.
This kind of behavior is expected from a country’s enemies not from a patriotic citizen and certainly not from a former PM.
There is never any excuse to attack Pak Fauj.
https://old.reddit.com/r/pakistan/comments/1wg792z/asim_munir_alleges_that_imran_khan_was/
“police officers hiding under the table heard Imran’s entire May 9 2023 plan”.
If this the kind of chooran that PakMil can peddle to justify its crackdown on Pakistan’s most popular political party, and still find educated folks who will defend it….
There is never any excuse to attack Corps Commanders House.
Attacking military installations is something done by a country’s enemies not by those who claim to be patriots.
Imran Khan deserves whatever he’s getting. No one should ever think they are more powerful than Pak Fauj.
One can make a reasonably strong argument that Pakistan already is a … non-constitutional monarchy.
Whoever ascends to ‘COAS’ wears the pureland crown for all intents and purposes. From Ayub to Zia to Mush onwards to Muneer. with some Raheels and Kiyanis preferring to hold the strings behind the curtain instead of being explicit about it…
There is a language hierarchy in South Asia. It goes like this:
1) English
2) Urdu
3) Hindi
4) Every other regional language
In 50 years, this list will shorten, with Hindi giving way to complete Hinglish because of inability or reluctance of Indians to reign in English.
Hindustani is a creolic language; it almost demanded to be compounded wiht another one.
All the best mass languages are creolic, but not all creolic languages become the best. It remains to be seen whether Hinglish can become the best. I think its in its formative phase with no current high status, maybe in a couple of generations we may have an answer
Urdu isn’t going to make it in India, Bangladesh, Nepal, or Sri Lanka considering how most Muslims can’t even read it anymore. Its going to become a regional language rather than a South Asian language with Hindi overtaking with little to no effort.
I think the fact that its so prevalent in music makes it very well-known
That’s more likely to make it into a dialect of Hindi rather than its own traditional thing.
It’s actually no longer that prevalent in Bollywood, there’s been a subtle shift away to use more Hindi words instead of Urdu.
Only Bollywood used Urdu in both dialogues and lyrics primarily because the writers / lyricists used to primarily be north Indian Muslims.
I said South Asia.
Urdu is still the most dominant langauge in Pakistan and most media is still in Urdu and it is not changing. There is a lot of influx of English vocabulary but the character/sentence structure of the language is still retained (unlike with what’s happening in India with Hindi)
Also, it cannot be a “regional language” if it is mutually intelligible with Hindi and spoken over all of India, Nepal, Afghanistan and Bangladesh as well.
There are Bengalis who never learnt to speak Urdu who now do so. There are Afghans who speak better Urdu than some rural Sindhis despite never been outside of Afghanistan.
In any case, I was talking about the language hierarchy which relates to status and prestige.
All those groups are parts of former Pakistan. The utility that Urdu represents to them over time will only go down. Urdu being spoken means rather little as it will get merged into Hindi over time. It is a regional language just like Bhojpuri or Gujarati which can be intelligible with some effort with Hindi but remains restricted to its respective regions.
This is just wrong.
You are talking about Urdu script, but I am talking about the spoken language.
Urdu on its own is extremely pan-Indian. And this is just Urdu, since its inteligible with Hindi, there is no other Indian language outside of Hindi that comes even close to it’s utility.
The entire point is that the Urdu script is the only thing that makes it different from Hindi. If Urdu script goes so does any chance of its differentiation from Hindi. It’s just a matter of time until it assimilates into the common tongue.
The Urdu script is not dying in India, even if it is not used that much anymore. Most Muslims learn to read the Quran in Arabic, and Urdu script is just a modified version of it. And in places like Pakistan and Afghanistan, it’s the default script.
Urdu script is already dead in India as Most Muslims aren’t fluent in it. Urdu newspapers are largely speaking a dying breed. Without those cultural fixtures there is nothing stopping it from evolving into another dialect of Hindi. I remember my Arab ex telling me how the Muslims from my region will end up just memorizing the pronunciations from the Quran without learning Arabic itself. So its status as being an intermediate for the Quran will also become unimportant as the wider community secularizes. It will become a Pakistani language over time not a South Asian language. Dhobi ka kutta na ghar ka na ghat ka.
>just memorizing the pronunciations from the Quran without learning Arabic itself.
Not believable at all.
Non-Arab Muslims don’t learn to speak or understand Arabic, but they definitely learn to read it. Reciting the Quran is an essential part of Islam. The daily prayers are also perfomed in Arabic.
Infact learning to read Arabic is a milestone ceremony that is celebrated especially in South Asia.
Even the Turks where the Arabic script for banned for long periods of their history in the past 100 years, still can read Arabic.
Ummm, without the script, its just ‘Hindi’ bruh.
Not unlike….without flashing the passport or shouting ‘Pakistani’ as loud as you can, you are seen and identified by the rest of the planet as … Indian.
I don’t need a script to tell you if someone is speaking Hindi or Urdu. The difference in vocabulary, accent, pronounication, is now enough that anyone can differentiate.
However these two are not seperate languages still.
Maybe in Pakistan but not elsewhere.
In India, for any state it would be like
1) English/Local language( hindi, marathi, whatever is the language of the locally dominant lingusitic group)
2) Languge of the next largest lingusitic group( Urdu, and whatever else is there)
3) Language of third largest linguistic group.
4) Language of tribal people
5) Language of the 4th largest linguistic group.
There is a pattern to these obscene pronouncements.
In Q’s mind, white people rank first. Then Pakistanis. Then North Indians. Then rest of the sub continentals.
He has argued this on race, insisting that he is ‘white’. Now on language.
Even while constructing his supremacy narrative, his innate slavishness cannot bring himself to be atop the pyramid.
The only outperformance Pakistanis currently have is over fecundity, and misogyny. Therefore he expresses deep pride over these matters.
Truly it is hard to find a more despicable character. Unfortunately my view of Pakistanis is being shaped by this specimen and his compatriot, who expresses the same opinions with a little bit of goading, but has a fig leaf of decency to realise that these are impolite to express.
I think you are just insecure about your skin color and race so you try to project that on me. English supremacy is not in doubt. You are speaking in English. You will likely send your kids (if you have any) to English medium schools. This has nothing to do with ”white” people, it’s just that the English people conquered the globe.
People are proud of their mother tongues like it’s their child or parent. But neither is your child or parent the best of the best, nor is your mother tongue. So relax.
Happily, as usual, you are wrong on every count except the most banal ones.
Always an entertainment to view the narrow minded presumptions of the colonial chattal.
Wrong on what count exactly? Do you not speak English because Englanders whose language it is conquered your country and established it here? What is it with all the ”anti colonialist” narrative that doesn’t accept basic reality. I don’t see any shame in accepting facts as they are.
So you want to discuss basic reality is it? Let me give you a small taste.
The fact is, you are trying desperately to cloak yourself in a superiority delusion by declaring your innate traits of race, language, religion, to be above others.
The reality is Pakistan languishes at the bottom of every HDI index, their passport confers pariah status.
They have been heavily outperformed by Indians in every sphere.
Every immigrant Indian community per capita wealth and achievement has far outstripped the Pakistanis, an experiment played out hundreds of times to the same result.
Every sport, every competitive clash results in such deep humiliation nowadays that Pakistanis quickly realised that there is a market for their tears online, spawning an entire youtuber community going around Lahore after every event, collecting and streaming them.
As I mentioned, your only real success has been in fecundity and misogyny, and so instead of recognising them for the social warts they are you flaunt them to public disgust.
There is no ‘better’ or worse language. By most objective metrics, such as consistency, grammatical and logical soundness, mellifluous tone, English ranks pretty low. It is moderately good at speed of communicating data, but outperformed by German.
If you are considering social status of language, that varies widely upon region. In my area Hindi tends to be spoken by the itinerant migrant class. Even Muslims tend to use their mother tongue. I already related that tale of the gentleman who was getting excited about learning Arabi, his Hindi was as bad as mine, you can forget about reading the contra directional squiggles.
While lost on the resident despicables wallowing in their inane and unmannered pronouncements.
The reality is every human culture has independently run up against the same communication speed limit. So while some languages are efficient but lugubrious, others make up by being rapid and verbose.
There is always beauty to be found in a shared humanity.
https://www.science.org/content/article/human-speech-may-have-universal-transmission-rate-39-bits-second
I think this is just your bitterness coming out.
Languages have a clear hierarchy across time.
Some have religious significance (Classical Arabic, Latin, Sanskrit etc)
Some are mass languages and lingua franca (English, Urdu/Hindi, Spanish, French)
Some are spoken by huge numbers but limited to their ethno groups (Bengali, German, Mandarin etc)
Most languages however are destined for extinction within the next two generations.
If you don’t think there is a hieararchy, don’t teach your children any other language that your ancient native tongue. If you do, you know deep down that is required for upward mobility.
Mass languages that are also associated with high culture have high social status by default – they are spoken by many and they were the language of the elite at one time or another. You denying that fact will not change anything. English is clearly better than most languages by default, almost all works of high learning and global high culture is produced in this language, it is also the language of commerce. Urdu is also better than most languages, Most South Asian high culture and modern religious works are associated with and it is a mass language due to that fact. It is also a langauge of commerce and spoken far and wide.
You can argue which language sounds better, which is more efficient.. but at the end of the day, the languages that won out are the languages that the elite spread by conquest.
These sort of stratifications of society and culture, the designation of high and low, elite status, they are all products of an insecure and ossified mindset.
When the Chandala reminds Adi Shankaracharya of his prided blindness, the brahmin falls at the teachers feet as the scales fall from his eyes.
Unfortunately your colonial masters have indentured you mind and soul twice over, leaving behind a gibbering uncle Tom, twirling his moustache in the gutter about his ancestral servitude.
We use English as a commercial language. There is no shame in excelling at another mans game. Much like cricket.
Languages proliferate based on necessity but the true place of honour for us is in our wits, our morality and our culture. These earn the clearest expression in our mother tongue.
I see little danger, if anything South Indian cultures have been transcending the language barrier to go pan Indian with immense popularity, something that was mostly absent in my childhood. Purists watch only subtitled versions to get the true feel.
As our economy grows, so shall the language necessity and opportunity.
Send us a video of your howls as you prostitute your shame at the next match for a youtube shekel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea-fUHCfgtI
That Biswa clip is 😀
+1
You write so much but say so little so I have to fish out the point from all the nonsense.
>//We use English as a commercial language//
Explain to everyone here why you dont use your native tongue. If you have to use English its superior on the hierarchy by default.
Are Pakistanis uniformly dimwitted, or is it just you two who don’t understand context?
By this metric, your tongue is at the bottom of the totem, most often heard on your humiliation monetization.
Explain to everybody why you all are crying so much on youtube.
//By this metric, your tongue is at the bottom of the totem,//
My tongue is spoken by a billion people in India, by different nations and races and different classes of people. By default, it is higher up in the hierarchy.
English is THE globally dominant language.
How is this point even remotely controversial?
Urdu is the language of the tyre puncture repair shop. That isn’t controversial either.
Urdu is the national language of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan–a nation of 250 million people.
Urdu and Hindi are essentially the same language. So anytime you insult Urdu you are actually insulting your own country’s “rajbhasha”.
Its great that you admit that Urdu isn’t a real language.
Where did I say Urdu isn’t a “real language”?
Urdu and Hindi are two standardized registers of Hindustani.
This is the linguistic consensus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindustani_language
On the point of Urdu not being a “real language”
Anjum Altaf and Amit Basole published a book entitled “Thinking With Ghalib: Poetry For a New Generation” which is available in both India and Pakistan
https://rolibooks.com/product/thinking-with-ghalib-poetry-for-a-new-generation/
I have seen these two discuss this online.
It’s controversial because Indians live in a perpetual state of inferiority complex due to their history.
They will use English, read it, write it, teach it to their kids. They will even follow and adopt all the trends of the English language and the contemporary English culture. But they will then turn around and say how it’s so inferior just because it is the language of the foreigner.
Just another symtom of the famous quote by Al Biruni (nothing has changed):
Urdu on a higher strata than German or Mandarin? Even on a subcontinental scope, one could more easily argue that participating in the Urdu ecumene correlates with *downward* mobility. Prestige signals often trail realities of power, what is already obvious to south asians outside of Pakistan is that the influence of urdu isn’t even slowly attentuating, it’s cratering.
Speaking Urdu is directly correlated with not getting a flat in a metro city.
Urdu is a language usually spoken by people who are stuck in 1923.
Seriously?
There is no call for insulting the national language of 250 million people.
Would you take kindly to your language (whatever it may be) being insulted?
To the Admin: I would like the “Online Safety Precedent” extended to Archer as well.
I did not respond to you, so why be a crybaby? It’s an opinion just as you had so many opinions of everyone from hindu women to Indians to the manhood of hindus etc..also what is with this running to the admin everytime, as if they are butlers in your private club who will cater to your every whim and fancy.
There is no call for insulting the language of 250 million people. You are just trolling Pakistanis.
Anyone can complain to admin. If I can be sanctioned for objectionable remarks so can you.
Actually, I was not even thinking of Pakistanis when i made that comment. I was thinking of my friendly neighbourhood billy goat who cant get a job, and cant hold a conversation in the 21st century all because he is saddled with this dying language that has zero value.
😂😂😂😂
Noted.
TO ALL: Please cease with trolling. I will go ahead and put up another Open Season thread for people to talk and jest.
And here we come to the crux of the issue: the inability to accept the separate identity of Pakistanis.
It’s been 80 years. Let people self-identify how they please. “India” and “Pakistan” are both nation-states that were created at the exact same time on August 15, 1947.
The “rest of the planet” doesn’t care one way or the other about India vs. Pakistan. However, people do not associate Islam with India.
Why are you extrapolating ‘inability to accept separate identity’ bla – This is all a construct of your own bias. A strawman that you like to play with yourself.
>>>>However, people do not associate Islam with India.
When folks see a random brown person from the subcontinent, super high odds that they get seen as Indian – regardless of which skygod that person chooses to believe in.
Pakistanis like to pretend they have some kind, any kind of exceptionalism – some choose religion, others choose melanin, or whatever – to differentiate themselves. My point was that most global perception doesn’t care about that.
Run from it, hide from it, deny it – your prerogative.
Someone who claims to have ‘grown up’ in the diaspora should know this. Someone holed up in a feudal enclave in West Punjab may have forgotten.
The phrase “Uncle Tom” is racist. Allowing it to be used on this site is a new low.
Since the person concerned is not going to take my word for it, let’s refer to the website of the Jim Crow Museum:
https://jimcrowmuseum.ferris.edu/tom/homepage.htm
The comment also contains “prostitute your shame for a youtube shekel”– This is anti-semitic.
Q made a very banal point that English is at the top of the global language hierarchy. All South Asian elites send their children to English medium schools.
The best schools in Pakistan were those run by the Church (Convent of Jesus and Mary for girls and Saint Anthony’s for boys) as well as Aitcheson College (on the pattern of Eton)
Q’s point did not deserve the vitriol that it has unleashed.
😂😂😂
It’s hilarious how Pakistanis constantly voice supremacist tropes about their social status, racial admixture, language, religion etc.
They will then cry about racism, mental health, English grammar, what not while I argue against looking down upon others.
Normally such an abject pathetic state would elicit some sympathy, but for their tendency to weaponise it.
Meanwhile lets play at this stupid farce of disjointing the comments, because clearly that makes all the difference.
I cited the Jim Crow Museum which has nothing to do with “Pakistanis”.
“Uncle Tom” is clearly a racial slur. All that is necessary is an apology for using it. I’m willing to make allowances for not being sensitive to the American context. But now that it’s been pointed out, there is no excuse for doubling down.
Anyway, I left that comment to bring the issue to the attention of the Admin.
It’s not really something I need to spend a lot of time litigating.
It’s very interesting how people who get upset about other people’s “supremacist tropes” have no problem throwing around emotional and insensitive language themselves. Some introspection is required.
When Q makes objectionable comments, I will call him out on it as well.
Uncle Tom is only racist for black people. Are you calling Q black?
😂😂😂😂😂
Poor Q, he so wants to be white.
Udde baba. Wot are you saying re?
Now you will have to apologise for mischaracterising it in a subcontinental context.
😔
Keep doubling down. You used a racist term and you don’t have the decency to apologize for it.
Don’t argue with the Jim Crow Museum.
I’m arguing with you, you keep crying wolf because you’re too stupid to understand context.
Now apologise for your wilful mischaracterisation or poor English comprehension, I will grant you leeway in choosing which.
Oh buzz off!
You are no one to call me “stupid”. My intellectual credentials are in the public sphere. Yours aren’t.
Keep doubling down on your racism. No decent human being uses the phrase “Uncle Tom”– in any context.
Nepo kids often buy their ‘credentials’ and have to incessantly refer back to them due to having no credible accomplishments of their own.
I am carefully maintaining genuine online safety protocol, if you knew of mine I cannot bear responsibility of the depression it would induce in you.
Run along to admin now and make up a new outrage to whine about.
Let’s not get into “credible accomplishments”– Have you published a book? Have your pieces been published in scholarly journals?
I thought not.
You need to touch grass and stop “entertaining” yourself by mocking Pakistanis.
Admin note: Calm down folks! I can’t keep up with firefighting at this rate!!
I suggest any objections to my comments be mailed in to the Admins.
I trust them to be competent enough to understand context and intent.
They can remove them if judged to be found wanting.
I can’t think of anything sadder than a grown man making up childhood SAT scores. Your pathetic comprehension levels have been laid bare.
It is obvious your deviant mind demands daily humiliation. Where your enjoyment begins, mine ends. You’re on your own, enjoy.
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