- BP’s two Factions in light of its “Bharat” underpinning?
- What defines the “Majority”?
- What does Courtesy Mean in an online forum?
The majority, described
Now that we are Brown, that is Bharat, Pundits, all of us who are the majority share things in common. Five come to mind, and they should be front and centre:
- Hindu by birth or Hindu by marriage (broadly Upper Caste social milieu).
- India’s borders can never be reduced. Some, myself included, are very much in the Akhand Bharat camp; I see Iran to Indonesia as one vast Indic, Hindu Continental sphere.
- Hinduism was oppressed under the Anglo-Islamicate legacy, which has been a mixed blessing at best (that is a most charitable view). The LeLi Brahmin view that we should have been grateful to be chattel under Despots, who professed Islam, is odd.
- Dharma has space for all, and that more Hinduism does not mean less secularism; as well as an inclination for more Hindu-Indic symbology in the national discourse.
- Broadly supportive of the current government of India and sceptical towards RaGa.
- Partition was a mistake and the two-nation theory was not a good idea. Pakistan has not succeeded.
That defines the majority to a very strong extent, and the minority is defined by being against these positions, in whatever combination. We have such a strong majority that all of us agree with it, including the full admin team.
It just so happens that even if I’m not Hindu by birth, I’m definitely Hindu by marriage. My entire social reality, where I engage with Brown people, is Hindu, so I have become an acculturated Hindu. A fortnight ago I said the divide here was ideological, not sectarian; the last week taught me the map is older than the ideology. It’s not Saffron or Crescent, left liberals or right wing. It is the majority versus the minority, and in a weird way we are converging towards what is modern-day India, and really mapping that.
The minority
Right now there are roughly three minority commentators on this blog. Of the ten or fifteen commentators I know, the only genuine middle-ground individual in the entire scenario is girmit. So the question that is really happening now within Brown Pundits is this: do we give the minority more latitude, or do we shut them down? The Courtesy Guidance exists to answer that. Latitude, out of courtesy. It doesn’t mean that when the minority engages in provocative behaviour, that should be allowed. Neither side can provoke or trigger a war. That’s about it.
Two-nation theory
We are not here to litigate two-nation theory. I’m almost inclined to ban casual discussions of it, because we’ve evolved. Unless it’s an intelligent discussion, I don’t see where the signal comes from in endlessly litigating TNT.
The Guidance
Dharma must always have space for dissent.
So even if Kabir is saying something outlandish or outrageous (and he does troll the space from time to time), it is still his right to say it. If it is triggering, email it in and we will take a look. Not everything has to be a takedown. The point of this blog is not to trigger every minority commentator until they are gaslit and hounded out of the discourse.
And when somebody doesn’t want to talk to someone, courtesy demands, as part of a community, that you respect that wish. Kabir doesn’t want to engage with X, Y or Z: then X, Y and Z should respect that, as much as they can, voluntarily, out of courtesy. That’s how we would all engage with each other in real life.
The Ceasefire Precedent stays lapsed. The Courtesy Guidance is in effect. If courtesy fails, the Ceasefire comes back, and what is voluntary today becomes compulsory.
The Cerulean
BP is the “cerulean” of Indic discourse, what is discussed today filters downstream into X, social media and mainstream media (eventually).
I wanted to add that the “Majority” having successfully defined Brown, that is Bharat, Pundits should now give some leeway to the “Minority“.
Generosity in victory is a noble attribute so let dissenters breathe a bit and exhale and allow them to say what they want, even to the point of egregiousness (at which point it gets excised).
But alot of BP is evolving one’s viewpoints and learning from the interaction; otherwise what’s the point. This is not X. This is a relatively small space of no more than 20 active commentators (and maybe 2,000 daily unique readers, usually it is 1% that actively comments from the readership). So the victories won here don’t percolate into the wider space.
BP is is the “cerulean ” –
https://youtu.be/-rDTRuCOs9g?si=QulFdnthtN6OKQaq
Perhaps as good a thread as any to exhibit my own discomfort with the Right v Left narrative. Some deeply disturbing news coming from Tamil Nadu where the poster child of secular resistance and youth energy against Hindutva has shown its true colours.
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/jcd-prabhakar-tvk-vijay-birth-of-a-controversy-tamil-nadu-speaker-slammed-for-anti-abortion-march-11893410
Indian minorities are not be default “Left”. They are arguably more toxically rigid about pushing their world-view than any of of Dharmic sampradaya. Further buttresses the argument about India being more liberal than it has any right to be partly due to a Dharmic majority. If these signs are any indications, we are in the interregnum between Constantine and Theodosius, with an Indian Edict of Thessalonica imminent within the century and further Theodosian Edicts to follow soon after.
I dont understand what exactly is the problem here.
As Indian citizens the catholics has a right to campaign for abortion. If many of our leaders can be yajmans in temple inauguration ceremonies why is it a problem if a speaker participates?
And to my knowledge nobody was spoken ill of, no anti abortion clinics were attacked. They had a march in all liklihood will not get what they want and the news cycle will.move on.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ndtv.com/india-news/right-wing-rallies-called-for-boycott-of-muslims-supreme-court-told-4281331/amp/1
Please have a look at what the dharmic majoroty you are referring to is doing. There are more than can be shared but this comment will go to spam.
//If these signs are any indications, we are in the interregnum between Constantine and Theodosius, with an Indian Edict of Thessalonica imminent within the century and further Theodosian Edicts to follow soon after.//
This is reallt ridiculous. For starters India is a secular country, christian and other religious minorities are not persecuted or challenged for their beliefs which is where many belief driven characteristics come from( I will leave a link explaining this by a Hindu scholar you can read it if you want) and on top of that majority of Indian christians are not bigoted or hateful to hindus
This reflexive suspicion and scorn towards others on this site is why I am so judgemental to others. A reaction to everyone’s constant baseless judgement on others.
Once again no religiois community was called out for social boycott in this march.
Since I could not get a good screenshot, 35% of christian only say that their religion is the one true one.
Hardly enough to redo the events of the late roman empire.
Here is the article that provides an Indian perspective of growth of christianity in roman empire.
https://www.hipkapi.com/2017/10/05/ancient-roman-culture-and-early-christianity-a-pagan-perspective-from-india/
He is an author who has written from Swarajya, basically christianity emphasis on belief and theology is a product of roman challenge to it, since christianity is not being challenged and it has reached the intellectual end of many of its ideas making comparisons with the late roman empire is just alarmism and being suspicious for no good reason.
Calvin don’t use caps locks pls – i deleted that comment
I wrote that comment so that people can see and not misunderstand me.
In case anyone is wondering.
I dont support the speaker, think he is wrong but everyone has a right to dumb opinions.
No need to over exaggerate when no community was spoke of badly, unlike others, only 35% of christians think their religion is only true one and we live in a secular country as decided by our constitution.
Checking if this goes for approval
You should be on automatic approval
Couldn’t agree more.
India is incredibly progressive in women’s reproductive rights. It needs to stay that way.
This was a trial balloon. Vijay was probably testing the waters to try and push through some regressive policies influenced by his religion. They always push the envelope. And worse still they want to impose it on those who don’t buy into their rigid worldview.
I’m frankly appalled. If YSR was anything to go by, the damage his personal beliefs caused to AP are obvious. Now this chap is trying his luck it seems.
Any attack on women’s reproductive rights will not be seen positively by anyone who voted him in.
No uterus, no opinion.
I heard that Vijay becomes Joseph in Kanyakumari.
Oh yes, his full name is Chandrasekaran Joseph Vijay. His estranged wife is a SL Hindu. He’s busy wooing Trisha on the side. She I believe is hoping to be the Jayalalitha to his MGR.
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/tamil-nadu/story/tamil-nadu-finance-minister-marie-wilson-christianity-remarks-tamil-language-row-2968417-2026-08-11
Why am I not in the least surprised…the brainwashing is expected…
Thank you for the Courtesy Guidance.
For the record, I don’t wish to engage with OM or RNJ.
Agree that litigating TNT is pointless.
I do wonder if the majority actually believes “Partition was a mistake”. That’s not the sense I get. An undivided India would have had an even larger percentage of Muslims (close to 1/3 of the population). I don’t think most people on BP would have been particularly happy with that outcome.
Admin Note: don’t be racist Q
What was racist? You yourself said: “Majority” having successfully defined Brown, that is Bharat
I just said a lot of Pakistanis are not ‘Brown’
This comment is perhaps the brownest comment you could’ve made. Glad to know that you are 100% ‘Brown’.
Anyone over 20% SAHG is ‘starting to get brown’ and anyone over 30% SAHG is brown and over 40% SAHG is definitely brown.
It’s an oversimplification but I think it generally checks out..
Which is why
Indian = brown
Pakistani = maybe brown, maybe white, maybe maybe.
what is SAHG?
ok just googled it sounds like Saag loll and now I’m hungry.
I don’t see what is the big deal in being white; Proud to be Brown 🙂
I would use AASI but then people get very race conscious, so SAHG it is, its more academic and politically correct
ok that made me chuckle. This is how I’d like to see silliness in comments handled, instead of censoring. 😀
Unless there’s a job or a college seat involved. In which case you’ll stop counting AASI percentages and just tick the the ‘person of colour’ box.
I mean.. look at it this way: if the job or college seat involved offered full scholarships to women, and you are a man, would you check mark the ‘female’ box and start identifying as a woman?
I personally wouldn’t, even if they offered me a bars of solid gold, but I am not gonna judge others if they do. Wait, no, actually I will judge them.
LMAO. If I had a fake chocolate gold coin for every Pakistani who pretends to be Indian in the US IT world, I’d be chocolate rich.
But… I don’t judge them.
When your national identity is based first and foremost on identity denial, this is the kind of circus monkey coping mechanisms that result.
One chocolate gold coin would make you richer than the average Indian… so it’s very believable.
Who is much richer than the average Pakistani?
Or is that in your neo-feudal society, the “poor brown” base of Pakistan don’t really deserve consideration?
I’m surprised with Kabir that he never actually challenges what you say. I’m mind to follow RNJ’s advice and let your hateful comments stand.
“I’m surprised with Kabir that he never actually challenges what you say”–
Did anyone on the opposing team (the “majority”) challenge OM’s blatantly insulting remarks about the Quran?
For that matter, an actual threat of violence towards me was mostly treated as a joke.
Anyway, I did disagree with Q when it came to his views on gender.
I’m not getting drawn into this meaningless “skin color” discourse.
I’m shocked I thought you would actually be forthright and condemn Q’s racism.
Except it’s a non-answer.
I’m glad RNJ suggested to let Q’s comments stay up; it’s rapidly discrediting the Green Wing of the Minority faction.
As far as I am concerned this “skin color” discourse is meaningless. I’m not getting involved.
I’ve pointed out that the “majority” faction doesn’t condemn blatant Islamophobia or threats of violence when these are done by members of their own team.
Don’t place expectations on me that you don’t place on others. I’m not Q’s keeper and I’m not responsible for what he says.
classic example of denial – Multiple generations of Pakistanis have grown up needing to believe that they are “superior” to Indians – in wealth, ‘skin color’, or some other random shyte. Reality be damned.
Reality has made it ever more farcical in the 21st century.
I don’t think Pakistan is based on identity denial but identity conflict.
That’s what makes it powerful and compelling.
The Persianate sphere is based on identity conflict in general (Islamicate vs. Indo-Persian)
I’ve seen…….way too many Pakistani keyboard warriors kanging on about how they are ‘different’/’white’/’superior’ to those brown Indians.
Its denial more than conflict. But anyway, not that important.
I mean do you even take Q and his pronouncements seriously? He’s the joker of the BP pack lol.
He’s BP’s own wannabe brown Andrew Tate 😀
True that 😆
Many Indians are so mentally colonized that they think that being white is superior by default.
So when I say many Pakistanis are not brown (which is the truth), the mental gymnastics start, words are strawmanned and wild assumptions are made about how “Pakistanis think they are superior (white)”, when I made no actual attempt to claim superiority based on skintone.
Very simple explanation for this, the caste system more or less enshrines this view into Indian religion.
Buddy you brought out the topic of wanting to be white. I just want to say it for the record, Punjabis ain’t white. You especially are not white. European is white and Pakistan ain’t anywhere near that. You’re actually culturally browner than even most Indians.
Apli koknastha mandali baghitlit tar chakkar yeun padtil kuthetari 🤣
Vedepana chalu ahe yencha ajun kahi nai.
Agdi barobar!
malaa ye vaachayla khoop avadte 🙂
😁 Aplya tighanna yeta bahutek ithe. Maybe Calvin pan vachu shakto.
Most Asians are lovers of white skin tbh.
And most Pakistanis are literally from the same ethnic groups in India.
You will have to start qualifying your statements if you want to say that punjabis, Sindhi, mohajirs living in the same latitude as their coethnics are brown and you are not.
Wnat do you mean by brown anyways? Brown skin color?
This is obviously a meaningless discussion. I don’t know why we are spending so much time on it.
Punjabis on one side of the Radcliffe Line are not a different race from those on the other.
For that matter, “Indian” and “Pakistani” are not races but nationalities.
Q is obviously trolling the “Saffron” team. Just as members of the “Saffron team” like to troll with their mentions of “apartheid” and “kleptocracy”.
https://www.bbc.com/news/videos/cjd89jy7lp7o Pakistanis have been turning gay enmasse for asylum in the UK
One guy asks, but I’m married, what about my wife. To which the agent replies, don’t worry, we will make her a lesbian.
OK, this is not funny and borderline homophobic.
It makes light of the situation of actual LGBTQ people.
Your pal Q introduced the concept of ticking the wrong sex boxes after insisting he is white and talking race percentages, this is quite relevant to that.
Maybe take it up with him? Or do you find his discourse banter and our responses homophobia?
“Your pal Q”– He’s not my “pal”. I’m not his keeper and I’m not responsible for what he says.
No one on the “Saffron” team has a problem with the most blatant Islamophobia. So I think you can get off the moral high horse.
“Banter” is subjective.
There is never any excuse for homophobia.
Sure, sure, except exposing how people are abusing the asylum system to exclude genuine victims of homophobia is the opposite of the homophobia you are claiming.
So, I’m afraid I’m going to have to call you out for being homophobic.
There really never is any excuse for it.
Keep digging.
When something is aimed at a group that you identify with it becomes “racism” etc and when it is aimed at a group you don’t identify with then it’s “banter”. This is unsurprisingly quite normal behavior on this site.
I’m the farthest thing from homophobic. I’m probably one of the few non heterosexual people on this forum–not that I really care about anyone’s personal life.
Sure sure, but it was homophobic not to call out Q talking about judging people for their gender identification.
And doubly homophobic to call out me for exposing the abuse of LGBTQ protections.
Compounding error upon error, you weaponised homophobia to enable a homophobe and victimise an ally.
Perhaps you should consider apologising, I’m not sure you will be comfortable without atoning in some form.
I’m not responsible for what Q says. This is a ridiculous argument.
Your comment was nasty to Pakistanis and to the LGBTQ community. I stand by that opinion.
For you to call someone who is LGBTQ and has actually experienced homophobic bullying growing up “homophobic” is actually very offensive.
Let’s leave it there.
In the future, I think the “courtesy guidance” should apply to you as well. I don’t think your engaging with me is productive in any way. I don’t appreciate your attempts at humor or sarcasm or whatever you think you are doing.
You jumped into a conversation not involving you, calling me homophobic, where I was trying to be an ally. You cannot violate your courtesy rule, realise you were wrong, get upset and then unilaterally declare ‘courtesy guidance’.
This is just weaponising xtm’s courtesy extended to you. I reject your assertions. I am simply trying to be extremely logical about this.
“You jumped into a conversation not involving you”– Just as people can call out Q for “racism” etc, I can call out homophobia.
You keep trying to defend a comment that can be read as an attack on Pakistanis and the LGBTQ community.
“realise you were wrong”– I’m not wrong. You are just digging yourself deeper in the hole.
Calling a member of the LGBTQ community “homophobic” is not on.
For the record, when BB was around there was constant homophobia. There’s apparently a trans character in “Dhurandhar”?
No one on the “Saffron” team was at all bothered by homophobia. It’s not surprising.
Anyway, I don’t want to litigate this any more. Please follow the “courtesy guidance” going forward.
Sry, I reject your guidance, you have not at all been courteous to me by unfairly calling me homophobic instead of Q. You are weaponising a serious issue to fulfil some ancient grudge.
BB’s affronts to you are not mine to bear.
You could have conceded that your initial comment was problematic to say the least and we could put this issue to rest. I’m not always the one in the wrong.
Homophobia is the first thing straight men reach for when they are losing an argument. I’m not surprised. I’ve been dealing with this since middle school.
“BB’s affronts to you are not mine to bear”– I never said they were. But it is telling that no one on the “Saffron” team ever saw fit to call them out. That’s the context.
Please read the post you are commenting on. I (or anyone else) don’t need any justification to ask anyone else not to engage with them. If the “courtesy guidance” is not followed, then ceasefires become mandatory.
Feel free to have the last word.
The initial comment was 100% in response to Q, read the comment it was in response to. You jumped the gun on the homophobia when clearly none was intended.
Weaponising homophobia to fill a personal grudge is abominable behaviour.
Courtesy guidance does not apply to a) the instigator, b) the discourteous.
You can have the last word, but it needs to be an apology.
I am not going to apologize to you for anything. You can wait forever.
Your initial comment was insulting to Pakistanis and to the LGBTQ community. I will stand by that opinion.
I don’t have all day to spend on this. I would appreciate you not engaging with me going forward- in any context.
That’s clearly in the “courtesy guidance”.
Don’t you ever tell a gay person what is homophobic and what is not. That is completely a ridiculous argument.
If I have to defer to the Hindus on this site as to what is “Hinduphobic” or not, you have to defer to me on what constitutes homophobia.
Clear?
You know you are wrong. Apologise.
I will never apologize to you–in any context.
Make me.
You can apologize for your initial very problematic comment.
Carry on.
You are no one to lecture anyone on “abominable behavior”. Who exactly do you think you are?
This is a violation of the safety protocol. You are threatening me for a physical fight. It is completely unacceptable.
Don’t play this game with me.
You have no power over me.
Remember your reaction to BB’s threat of violence? You are on record as saying “threats are only credible when they can be carried out”.
I don’t take orders from you.
Anyway, I’m not wasting any further time on you. Have a nice Independence Day.
What record?
Also, the happy independence day was very passive aggressive.
Politely please.
Are you going to deny that you made a comment saying that threats are only credible when they can be carried out and since BB cannot enter Pakistan and hold me at gunpoint than his threat should not be taken seriously?
XTM told you not to litigate further.
The comments were later deleted but it’s not like I didn’t see them. Don’t gaslight me.
You don’t get to weaponize protocols when it suits you and ignore them when they don’t.
Anyway, you clearly have more time to waste than I do. Enjoy.
As for “passive aggressive”– You didn’t even acknowledge Pakistan’s Independence.
“Politely please”– You are no one to tell me how to conduct myself.
Record? My record is impeccable, like a new born babe I innocently suckle my thumb while you throw every accusations galore.
You really are on poor behaviour today. Homophobia, threats of violence, passive aggression, inability to apologise, aukaad tripping.
Chalo, I will magnanimously let you go this time. But next time do not expect such a generous gesture.
Sweetness and light, my thumb is a delight.
Again, you’re gaslighting me.
I’ve seen your deleted comment saying threats are only credible if they can be carried out.
I can’t physically hurt you so you need to calm down.
As for “inability to apologize”– You can also apologize to me for your initial problematic comment. If you’re not willing to apologize to me, there is absolutely no reason why I should apologize to you.
Don’t tell a gay man what homophobia is. That’s beyond ridiculous.
Sticks and stones….hahahahaha
Everyone calm down please. Heads up to all I will edit any content as I see fit.
Thats cool.
Just for the ‘record’ it’s now agreed that threatening people verbally is not a safety violation.
Kabir has been quoting this all day. I think we should accept the precedent as he is quite insistent about it.
Happy Independence Day everyone!
Don’t gaslight me.
Those were your words (in a now deleted comment). You argued that BB’s threat to infiltrate Pakistan and make me say “BMKJ” at gunpoint was not a threat because he lacked the ability to carry it out.
You cannot insist on protocols you want followed and refuse to follow others.
The “Courtesy Guidance” doesn’t require a justification for any member of the community to ask for someone to refrain from engaging with them.
I am asking you to not engage with me going forward.
You cannot refuse to apologize to me and then insist I apologize to you. You have no power over me.
I’ll leave it here but if you continue to harass me know that I am perfectly prepared to pay you back in kind.
I do not stand being bullied.
I do find it very interesting that people on this site don’t act out of a belief in rightness and justice but purely from tribal instincts. Q and I are Pakistani so it’s acceptable to be nasty to us. Calvin is Christian so it’s open season. But when someone pays you back in kind, suddenly you all find it unacceptable.
Also for the last time, I am not responsible for Q and nor do I agree with everything he says.
This is the whole problem with “teams”. People should only be held responsible for their own words.
Mwah? Im just an innocent ape. Monkey see monkey do.
Sure.
Look in a mirror sometime.
You clearly get your jollies from provoking me.
I have told you many times that I don’t appreciate your sense of humor or sarcasm. You are not as funny as you think you are.
Your disrespect of me will get passed off as “banter” while Q is accused of “racism” despite the fact that Indians are not even a race but a nationality. For the record, I don’t think he’s as funny as he thinks he is either.
I do not tolerate disrespect–whether it is passed off as humor or not.
I am certainly not going to start tolerating disrespect now.
People cannot directly address my arguments but they get offended and start targeting you as if you have to answer for me.
It appears I am poking the right spots, raising the right issues and bringing the bitter truth to light.
India is not a nation in the ethnic or racial sense. The different castes show noticeable and predictable genetic deviation with each other even with proximity of living for thousands of years.. which is quite a unique feature that is not present anywhere else in the world.
Since upper castes are lighter skinned than lower castes in general due to increased foreign ancestry, lighter skin confers status implicitly in Indian society. Absolutely nobody can deny this, which is why even 0M concedes that “wanting to be white is the most brown thing to do” what he means here is wanting to be white is the most Indian thing to do.
When I just lay out a fact that tens of millions of Pakistanis are white or white passing (in a western context), this triggers the insecurity alarm amongst many Indians who associate whiteness with superiority in caste and status which is a result of 3,500 years of foreign rule.
White skin color is not superior inherently so I clearly dont see how I am a racist for saying millions or Pakistanis have different skin tone than Indians. It appears that Indians are under the impression that they are “sem2sem” as Pakistanis but most of them are not. Pakistan has many nations, India has even more. We dont buy the Indian kool-aid that everyone here is the same by blood.
If you are sub-tweeting me; I was only curious about Kabir’s stance.
I am triangulating the core Commentariat; Calvin has impressed me with his gestures.
Tam Brams are perhaps some of the most accomplished castes in India to the point that both Indian presidential candidates in the US from the republican and democrats were of Tam Bram ancestry. Tam Brams are almost entirely dark skinned. These ideas you pervade aren’t just inaccurate and ignorant but also inaccurate within the Pakistani context. If tens of millions of Pakistani are light-skinned that doesn’t make them any closer to the Anglos or Europeans. Furthermore, most of Pakistan would be closer to the Brown Indian stock.
The idea that India needs to be created on the basis of ethnicity or race is completely pointless as it ignores the unique social contract drawn up on the basis of an economic reality. Any advantage a singular ethnic would have in independence would easily be undermined by the levels of military spending necessary for that group to be able to defend themselves. Pakistan is a clear example of this argument as Poverty has only grown in the nation as parts of it become destabilized and therefore people like you have to find reasons to pick apart the stable union of diverse peoples more prosperous than yours.
Now that you have soundly ‘shut him up’ he’ll disappear for a few days, and then later resurface moaning about how ‘nObOdY cAn cOuNtEr muH aRgUmEnTs’
How do you do the weird capitalisation? Random shifts?
Btw Q has a general point on skin colour. Indians need to stop with the fairness craze.
As usual I have an article about everything that annoys me.
https://indosaurus.substack.com/p/why-so-blue?r=1mp4jc
Are we even being serious? Indians are practically speaking rather mild in their skin fairness obsession. East Asians are known for undergoing much more extensive skin bleaching treatments. Every small flaw in society doesn’t need to be constantly focused upon.
I don’t think it’s a small flaw, I feel it’s a very insidious part of society. Indian society. Why bother with judgements of how others are worse?
When we worship a dark god, when the epitome of beauty was krsna panchali, let us embrace our melanin with love and representations of it.
India nowadays has a lot of reality shows, it’s really noticeable how uniform the celebrities are in skin tone.
Case in point.
Man I’m 100% sure Ram Kapoor used to be a lot darker than this. Regardless, I have sworn off of Indian TV for the most part. Its certain historical movies and documentaries for me.
These are like high school level arguments. Mangos are generally yellow but obviously since you dont want to accept that you will point to a few red ones claiming you negated me.
Let me literally spell it out for you in point form
1) Tamil Brahmins are lighter skinned than the other Tamils around them so the caste/color gradient stands, people around them unconsciously associate their ligher skin color with superiority.
2) Just look at Bollywood with overreprsenting lighter skinned Punjabis. South Indian cinema is even worse in this regard, their movie stars are 5 shades lighter than the people watching those movies.
3) You literally said “wanting to be white is very brown thing to do”. There is a reason for that. But now you appear to be backtracking.
4) Europeans are a diverse bunch, with just as much diversity as India. Southern Europeans are ANF dominant while Slavs are Steppe dominant. There was also a lot of sexual selection in European history which changed physiogomy independent of ancestry. The “white” in Western context is simply light skin color since Europeans have all shades except dark brown or black.. people with black hair can be considered just as white as brown. Which makes it much easier for anyone with skin tone which is same or lighter than medditeranean as ‘ambivalent’ or ‘white passing’. Tens of millions of Pakistanis are therefore “white passing”
5) nobody is arguing to create states here based on race. But this is a pushback against the assertion that everyone is the same here.
Indian expansionist propaganda works like this: claim similarity and then claim land.
Im just pointing out the glaring differences
I’ve been thinking that Punjabis are perhaps one of the worst governing ethnicities on the sub-continent. They’ve squandered greater fortunes than many other ethnicities would ever get to. Punjabis have been given the unique privilege of having an Indian state and a majority nation. They’ve somehow managed to screw up both. Pakistan has historically benefited from greater foreign investment, and aid from the richest powers in the world yet it somehow managed to invest it all in assets that don’t give a return (the military). Punjab on the Indian side began its journey as the richest state in GDP per capita and has drifted its way to 15th position a far cry from its former wealth. This is to the point that even in Bollywood we’re seeing a decline of Punjabi nepo kids. The Kapoors still have their guy on the top in the list of top Indian male actors but the competition is tough and other ethnicities like Sindhis (Ranveer Singh) are beating them at the box office.
I think the on coming decade the star of Punjab is going to enter a severe decline. As the Indian Punjabis seem to find no issue in blending into the mainstream with little to no overt Punjabiyat in their form other than perhaps Diljit Dosanjh who has been relegated to a secondary lead in Bollywood. Furthermore, other ethnicities have been making their rise rather overt.
Yes, I think Bollywood has been at odds with the shifting mood of the nation, a large part of it because Punjabis have dominated and they have nostalgia for a unified Punjab, that disparate tendril of dispossession sowing chaos in producer balance sheets.
Even today, there’s a Sunny deol movie called Batwara 1947 releasing which no one wants to watch.
The Deols are living on borrowed time. There is probably a market for a Sunny Deol nostalgia flick once a couple years maybe. But he was already a flopping lead for many years and only the success of Border 2 has put him on the map again. There isn’t even a single Deol of this generation worth talking about.
Hindu Sindhis & Hindu Punjabis are very similar.
Many surnames are in common.
Q gets this basic fact wrong. Brain power trumps skin colour.
Besides, TamBrahms are a very tiny minority in TN due to the rampant anti-Brahminism that pushed them out of TN during the peak of the Dravidian movement.
TN has a Brahmin First Lady hah
Haha yup. She’s smart, imo she’s using him to move up in politics.
Technically speaking she is described as a ‘close friend’. In TN politics even roommates can start doing power grabs.
I don’t think you realize how much India has moved past this skin colour obsession and deference to the white guy.
No doubt it still exists, there might be admiration for a pretty, fair individual, but it doesn’t stop anyone from admiring an equally stunning dark skinned person either.
Bollywood has been on the wane for sometime now. All the heroes and heroines look the same honestly, plastic and fake. Skin colour who cares.
I have repeatedly said that everyone is only responsible for their own words. This is the whole problem with “teams”.
For the record, I do think this whole “skin color” discourse is meaningless. “Indians” and “Pakistanis” are not races but nationalities. More than half of Pakistan’s population is Punjabi.
I do agree with you that there is a strong desire in South Asia to be white-passing. Pashtuns are considered more attractive in Pakistan precisely because they are fairer.
You are clearly pushing the right buttons to get “Team Saffron” upset which is why they all gang up on you.
They also know what buttons to push. “Apartheid”, “kleptocracy”, insulting the Pakistan Army– they know that those things are deeply triggering to me.
The general problem with this site (and I have been saying this for more than a year) is that a large part of people’s motivation is to be nasty to the “other” and get a response. When they don’t have a Pakistani to fight with they go after leftist Indians.
Frankly Kabir, most of your problems with the site are of your own making. Namely rules for others which you will happily violate yourself.
Also I am 100% in agreement on you w.r.t teams and the naming of them. I have a strong aversion to the practice, if you can get xtm to refrain from it, more power to you.
“Most of your problems with the site are of your own making…”–
This is inaccurate statement. Are you going to deny there is a “soft Hindutva” leaning? That’s classic gaslighting.
I refer to the Ramayana as mythology and all hell breaks loose. Meanwhile, blatant Islamophobia continues unchecked. I insult “Hindu Hriday Samrat”, all hell breaks loose. Meanwhile, my Field Marshal is an open target.
Those are just a few examples.
I have faced vile homophobia (constant references to the movie “Joyland” etc) and even threats of being made to say Hindu Right-Wing slogans at gunpoint. But of course, you think I should put with it.
Well you don’t know me. I don’t put up with bullying.
Don’t give me lectures. You are no one to condescend to me.
If I start talking about your plagiarized book suddenly I’m the bad guy.
You see! Classic blatant Islamophobia!
I don’t want to get into this with you.
XTM deleted your comments and called this type of discussion about the Holy Quran Islamophobic.
So perhaps self-reflect.
That’s a terrible thing to write 0M. Back up the claim that Kabir’s book is plagiarised otherwise you will have an immediate 100 comment fine.
Otherwise write an immediate apology to Kabir and ask for his forgiveness.
Learn from what happened to Jason Arday; don’t hound someone and make up stuff.
Kabir feels free to make inane remarks on other religions but asks for moderation at any comment on his religious books. If you feel Islam requires this degree of protection to remain valid I’d adhere to them but then I expect him to also follow those standards.
There is a consensus that The Ramayana is a work of “mythology”.
Your definition of “inane” is neither here nor there.
Anyway, it’s not about what I want. There are many things I would like to say that I’m not allowed to say on this site.
XTM has determined that your remarks about the Holy Quran cross a line. Don’t keep doubling down on your Islamophobia.
Oh I thought you said his work was plagiarised.
That’s fine carry on trolling; maybe you and Kabir should exchange WhatsApp ??
As far as I can tell, that was a reference to the Holy Quran being “plagiarized”.
Oh I thought he claimed your book was plagiarised
No, he was talking about the Quran.
I thought you made it clear that that kind of remark about the Holy Quran constitutes Islamophobia and is not allowed?
Fikar math karo, main hoon naa.
Bacha hai tu mera, aa tujhey Fanta pilata hoon
Don’t condescend to me.
I’m no longer tracking the comments in that way. It’s just too much; I thought claiming your book was plagiarised was in extremely poor taste after what happened with Jason Arday.
I can focus on either new content or moderation; can’t do both.
There have to be some red lines otherwise it’s just a free for all.
I don’t think religion should be discussed in such a casual manner. It is extremely Islamophobic to make such claims about the Holy Quran.
Thank you.
That hasn’t changed much has it considering how accepting you’ve been of Q’s bold faced transphobia.
Again, I have not defended a single thing Q has said. I’m not his keeper.
To be honest, I don’t read half of his comments. But if you all are so upset that he’s trolling the “Saffron” team, perhaps apply those same standards to yourselves when you troll Pakistanis.
dude don’t get sucked in. The metaphor of ‘don’t get into mud wrestling with a pig’ fits.
I will not stand for homophobia of any sort. There is no excuse to weaponise it to protect a homophobe. You can’t change my mind on this, I am determined to be an ally. And a friend.
Sweetness and light all around, but when someone is homophobic, the iron fist slips out of the velvet glove to deliver justice.
This site will remain a safe space.
Now this is just a personal insult.
Don’t start with me.
The want to be white is browner than most desires. Perhaps the brownest thing about you.
Been enjoying the “brown” comments. Good one OM.
“want to be white” – fantasy of most Indians
“being white” – reality of many Pakistanis
Thank you for the endless entertainment, especially on the eve of our Independence.
The cope it goes deep.
It hurts, doesn’t it?
One of the reason why the Paknats online start going overboard with the skintone discourse is because they know the Indians associate whiter skin with superiority, they worship lighter skin while not having it and thus cannot accept Pakistan as a seperate entity from them because they lost a ‘whiter’ territory in 1947.
So for a Paknat, this skintone discourse agianst Indians, it is like stabbing a knife and twisting it.
I…continue to marvel at the levels of delusion that my Pakistani brethren can sustain. The imaginary victory laps are quite…something.
Jinnah was a true Indian patriot to separate us.
0M no foul language pls
You asked for free speech and not to edit Q out. Careful for what you wish for haha
I am curious to see how Kabir will deal with the out and out racial supremacy being belted out by Q.
I suspect it will be nominal at best.
Wait, where exactly is the supremacy part?
This is pretty good. We get to see what the other person and their group thinks. It helps.
The boundary should be on personal abuse and threats.
I think Q’s doing an effective job of demonstrating his credibility. Don’t you?
Whiteness is a social construct it has nothing to do with the color of your skin.
It has to do with who anglo saxon people have historically, considered as part of them and aside from the odd court case, Indians and Pakistanis have not been considered white. I am sorry to say.
You can classify Pakistanis by how far west their heart lies. Arabia, Turkiya, Anglia, America.
As per the outdated 19th century race models, Indians were considered caucasoid by the europeans.
The problem was the the skin tone of most Indians was brown however when you make it white they look similar to european Caucasoids.
Modi jee is good proof of this transformation.
Bro you are in the same boat as Indians as far as being white is concerned as well as being from a culture that valorizes whiter skin tones.
Tyala ajibat he humour kalat nahi aahe.
Phar gosti nai kalat tyala, Hyechat kahi naval nai ahe.
We can treat this as an Open Thread.
Unbelievable India & Indonesia may as well be neighbours!
Rondo Island, Indonesia’s northernmost island in Sabang district of Aceh province of Sumatra, lies 163 km south of Little Andaman Island,[3] and 145 km or 80 nautical miles from Indira Point. India and Indonesia are upgrading the deep sea port Sabangunder the strategic military and economic collaboration to protect the channel between Great Nicobar Island and Rondo Island (c. May 2019),[4] which is 612 km or 330 nautical miles from Indira Point.
indian navy was the first to respond with help to ache, in indonesia when the tusami struck a few years ago.
Since today is Pakistan’s Independence Day, this essay is relevant
“Musical Nationalism: The Role of Pakistani Patriotic Songs in Creating National Sentiment”
https://kabiraltaf.substack.com/p/musical-nationalism-the-role-of-pakistani
.The coke studio ‘rah-e-haq ke shaeedoon’ is pretty based.
Is this the one with multiple singers..
Yes
Yes, it’s a very catchy song.
It fits right in with my analysis on “martyrdom”.
independence from whom? should it not be called pakistan formation day? muslims hardly fought the british for independence. those on congress’ side were because they that issues with muslim league. over all there were about a dozen muslim leaders who fought the british at the most.
Wait, you guys were told that the Hindus fought for independence?
List down the names and locations of the battles fought by the Congress or the Hindu Mahasabha or the RSS, against the British before 1947?
Chuar Rebellion (1766–1834)
1781 revolt in Bihar (1781)
Vellore Mutiny (1806)
Paika Rebellion (1817–1818)
Ahom rebellion (1828)
Kol uprising (1831–1832)
Second Anglo-Sikh War (1848–1849)
Santal rebellion (1855–1856)
Indian Rebellion of 1857 (1857–1858)
Rampa rebellion of 1879 (1879–1880)
Lushai Rising (1890-1896)
Anglo-Manipur War (1891)
Rebellion of Birsa Munda (1899–1900)
Bastar rebellion (1910)
Anglo-Kuki War (1917–1919)
Malabar rebellion (1921–1922)
Rampa Rebellion of 1922 (1922–1924)
Royal Indian Navy mutiny (1946)
I notice that every question asked, you completely obfuscate the point with blatantly false info or irrelevant info
Where does the Congress, RSS or Mahasabha feature in any of this? Most of these are not even”rebellions” just miscreants stirring up trouble.
The fact is that outside of some civil disobedience and resigning ministries, Hindus did not fight the British anymore than the Muslim League.
Mahasabha and RSS were actually allied with the Muslim League in favor with the British.
India was given independence becauase the British were in debt to the Americans and the Americans forced Britian to end its empire so they themselves would eventually take over in the new neo liberal world order established by them after WW2. There is not much too it. Indians are not a rebellious people and rulers find it is easy to control them.
The congress for most of the Raj’s history was a glorified debating society, only later did it transform into a big tent party. Even then they actively participated in the both sides of the Royal Indian Navy Mutiny of 1946. We even have Clement Atlee’s recognition of the fact that it was the Naval Mutiny which led to the hasty withdrawal of the British from India.
My understanding is that both the Congress and Muslim league condemned the mutiny, and only the communist party supported it. Apart from their principle grievances, then mutineers were animated by the red fort trials of captured INA members. In either case, there were prominent muslims in leadership roles of both the INA and the Navy mutiny.
Socialists from the Congress Party did outright support the Mutiny. Furthermore, Congress members also played a key role in negotiating the whole incident.
its seems to have been a small caucus within the party and Gandhi and Patel were ardently against the mutiny and negotiated their surrender. Moreover the none of their political demands were met. In fact the post-Independence congress government didn’t reinstate the mutineers into service or provide them with a pension. While it would be unfair to say that the Bose faction of the Congress party (that was essentially purged) didn’t raise an armed struggle against the British, the leadership that prevailed appears to have prioritized a stable , intact empire handed over to them.
Exact India & Pakistan are very much the raj
How many Brits did they kill? Any non fatal casualties?
Naming it as a “Royal Indian Navy Mutiny of 1946” sounds like a great achievemnt of resistance, except the term “khoda pahar, nikla chooha’ applies here. Even Imran Khan’s “failed mutiny attempt” in 2023 was more consequential.
In 1857, the entire Bengal Army – the same army the British conquered India with – rebelled or deserted and the British lost control of the terrirtories they were ruling. There were battles, casualties, losses, sieges. That was a real mutiny, deserving of that name. Everything else is just selling fake historical chooran by naming events that were of no consequence.
Impact of rebellions is not always measured in blood and dead bodies. But then again, ‘Direct action’ is a lot more appealing to your mindset huh
“Independence from whom”?
Two new nation-states were created out of British India on August 15, 1947– India and Pakistan.
Independence from the British obviously. Though many Pakistanis see the birth of Pakistan as freedom from Hindu rule.
“Muslims hardly fought the British”– The Sepoy Mutiny or “War of Independence” was led by Bahadur Shah Zafar and his sons. Begum Hazrat Mahal fought the British in Awadh.
Flame thread warning. To all; if I see nonsense discussions about Hindus & Muslims, expect mass deletions.
Write a post about a contentious view point
Don’t worry about this. I don’t take these communalized view points seriously because they have to omit or marginalize the opposing figures to even be coherent. Kabir has a habit of doing that so it barely registers emotionally anymore.
In the case of the first war of independence Kabir forgets that some of the primary generals involved in it originate from the Maratha remnants like Jhasi with towering figures like Jhasi ki Rani (Rani Laxmibai), Tatya Tope, Nana Sahib, etc. Even the person who coin its name “First war of independence” was the inventor of the term Hindutva, Veer Savarkar. Mangal Pandey the solider who started it all was so obviously a Hindu that you have to brainwash yourself to believe it was Muslim rebellion.
The British blamed Muslims for the Mutiny. Almost all of Bahadur Shah Zafar’s sons were executed.
I am in no way undermining Jhansi ki Rani etc.
But “Muslims hardly fought the British” is an inaccurate generalization.
If the Pakistani viewpoints here are “communalized” those of the “Saffron” team are equally so.
Let us not let the Pakitani antics undermine the contributions of our muslim freedom fighters, as well as those from other religions.
The freedom fighters were all individuals who went against the consensus of the time, that working with the British was the best path forward and we should all be thankful to them for that.
yep, claiming muslims ‘hardly fought’ is inaccurate. Now if you say that about the Muslim League that’s a different story.
Yep correct
“Explained: The Mecca Pact, a safety net with no strings attached”
By Muhammad Faisal
https://www.dawn.com/news/2022768/explained-the-mecca-pact-a-safety-net-with-no-strings-attached
“Smokers’ Corner: Politics of the Big Tent”
By Nadeem F. Paracha
https://www.dawn.com/news/2022920/smokers-corner-politics-of-the-big-tent
Fiction: The Weight of Belonging
By Sahar Shehryar
https://www.dawn.com/news/2022908/fiction-the-weight-of-belonging
Bangladesh beats Australia in the first test and all hell broke loose there.
Now, Bangladesh wants a tour of/by indians .
Some more new content to discuss: Saurav Das of the CJP is not an Indian citizen and is renting a 9000 Sq ft bungalow at one of the poshest colonies in Delhi under someone else’s name. No known sources of income 🙂
Zardari on tolerating hindus: “The Indians have a different point of view. They have their own agenda in mind. They believe in Akhand Bharat. But there is a lot in between which they have forgotten,” said Zardari, adding, “We are Muslims. They are not. But we are Muslims of the mindset that we tolerate 3-4% Hindu population.”
Never mind the tolerating hindus mindset, which is expected given that the foundation of Pakistan is hindu hatred. The idiot doesn’t even know the Hindu population is only 2% in Pakistan
I’ve read that the hindu population share Sindh is approaching 9% now, and as that’s his native region, he might be prone to project higher levels of representation to other provinces.
Everyone knows who is funding them through what channels. Its Dinesh Thakur’s NGOs cycling foreign money into their accounts.
Since the anniversary of Partition and Independence just passed, this piece remains relevant:
“Partition, My Father, and His Wife”
By Harbans Mukhia
https://thepeshawarreview.substack.com/p/partition-my-father-and-his-wife
“The Delhi of 1947”
By Shah Umair
https://sikkawala.substack.com/p/the-delhi-of-1947
https://www.facebook.com/share/19WgBD4iaX/?mibextid=wwXIfr
I think for most of its history since the Delhi Sultanate, Dehli has been a Muslim majority city with a completely Islamicate character.. The British blamed the Muslims for 1857 and killed/expelled the entire Muslim aristocracy from the city after 1857.. The city rebounded to becoming 33% Muslim again, only for 1947 to undo it.
Interestingly, Jinnah had wanted Delhi to serve as joint capital of Pakistan and Hindustan but then Punjab was divided.
Yes, I was very struck by the decline in the Muslim percentage from 33% to 6%.
When two-thirds of a city’s Muslim population “leaves”, the only appropriate term for this is ethnic cleansing.
it was this population which demanded partition and formed Pakistan . They were and probably still the back bone of your nation.
The Punjabi and Sindhi Muslim was not too keen on partition.
This is not fair. You cannot blame the average Muslim citizen of Delhi for Partition.
Delhi was ethnically cleansed of its Muslim population. Similarly, Lahore was ethnically cleansed of its Hindu/Sikh population.
When was the last time you visited Delhi?
I don’t know about Q but I have actually visited Delhi (and Agra). Probably around 2000.
“When was the last time you visited Delhi”
Yesterday, in my dream, where I was the Sultan atop the peacock throne planning Ghazwa e Hind
In reality, I have never visited Delhi, and probably will never do for obvious reasons.
XTM, if you have some site data download, can you run it through some AI to discern patterns in the comments.
I want to see how far they tally with my opinions on these matters.
For instance, listening to the Pakistanis here, I tend to get the impression that only Muslim angst and displacement really concerns them. This might be my bias, but the comments really come off as an internalisation of the concept that non muslim suffering is not worthy of note. Esp around partition. Is there an equivalent sentiment on the Indian side, do Indians talk only of Hindu angst?
Is TNT solely a Pakistani internalisation, or does it run on both sides of the border?
To be honest I think it’s just trolling – Kabir calling it ethnic cleansing is simply to inflame the Commentariat.
I had to delete Archer’s very provocative comment.
Yes thanks for deleting it.
That was an extremely unhinged comment.
As for “trains full of corpses” arriving in India, the exact same thing happened on the other side as well. Trains full of dead Muslims would arrive in Pakistan.
So you really don’t have any moral high ground.
Ethnic cleansing occurred on both sides of the Radcliffe Line. That’s the factual position.
“Ethnic cleansing” is a factual term. When a city’s Muslim population is reduced from 33% to 6%, what else would you call it but “ethnic cleansing”? If the Commentariat is “inflamed” by facts, that’s too bad.
Delhi was ethnically cleansed of its Muslim population. Lahore was ethnically cleansed of its Hindu population.
It is also a legal term under international law and the migration of Muslims from Delhi would definitely not meet that criteria.
The Muslim population was reduced from 33% to 6% over ten years.
That is textbook ethnic cleansing.
It’s not “migration”. It’s not like all those Muslims just voluntarily decided to leave. Many of them left in fear for their lives.
These attempts to downplay Muslim suffering are not even surprising at this point.
If what happened in Lahore qualifies as ethnic cleansing then so does what happened in Delhi.
Anyway, don’t give me a semantic argument. If you want to use “Bangladesh genocide” which you didn’t seem to have a problem with then I am fully entitled to use “Ethnic cleansing” in this case.
Otherwise, the phrase “Bangladesh genocide” must never be used on this site again since it is an extremely anti-Pakistan phrase.
You are a such a dishonest commenter. Your selective outrage is nauseating.
Bangladesh genocide isn’t a genocide, and you will start crying the moment its brought up – never mind that the evil PakMil was documented in its attempts to rape the Bengali genes into being more compliant and puke, ‘Islamic’.
The progeny of those who unleashed Direct Action as a way to achieve Islamic secessionism wants to cry about voluntary migration. And we all know why. Because delusional thinking craves Delhi and its location as a ‘seat of power’.
Go support murders of more innocent Pakistanis by your Fauj. Your consistently selective whataboutery and vomit-inducing barely cloaked Islamic Superiority complex single-handedly bring down the quality of discourse on this site.
The word Beghairat comes to mind.
Don’t you dare get personal with me. You are the one who started all this with “taqqiya”. That word must never ever be used by a non-Muslim towards a Muslim.
Since you like Urdu words so much, I’m happy to show you your “auqaat”. Who the hell do you think you are to address me in this manner?
Clearly the English language is not your strength. One cannot “secede” from a colony but only from a nation-state. British India was not a nation-state. “India” and “Pakistan” were created at the exact same time.
As for “voluntary migration: the Muslim population of Delhi was reduced from 33% to 6% that is not “voluntary migration” and it’s actually deeply offensive and Islamophobic to call it that.
Look in a mirror sometime and examine your Hindu right-wing Muslim hating face.
You are no one to give me lectures.
Cease and desist addressing me or there will be hell to pay.
You have no idea who you are dealing with.
Err, you keep trying to Larp as a so-called center left liberal, while spouting extremist political ideology and supporting Islamist orthodoxy and supremacy in the ‘pure land’.
So…..if it squawks like a taqqiya, waddles like a taqqiya, it damned sure aint no duck. ‘Center left’ or otherwise. 🙂
I am using taqqiya here as a colloquial synonym for intentional misrepresentation of one’s ideological leanings.
And I refuse to grant you some sort of soap box to police what terms and language is and not ….halaal for discussion here on this site.
You are of course, free to continue pretending to ‘wounded’. But I do not think anybody else, muslim or not, would share your weaponized victimhood on this.
First of all, I said I am a center-left Pakistani American not “center-left” in some generic sense.
You are no one to give certificates of who is center-left or not so I don’t really care about your opinion. You are a rando on the Internet.
You don’t have to make any special effort to “play the game”. Just be yourself.
An appropriate adjective considering his heart only seems to beat for the lands he has deigned for conquest while the poor Kashmiri and Punjabi are fit to be slaughtered by his own uncle’s army. He seems to oppose no shooting his army conducts while he digs historic wrongs to outrage about on a daily basis.
Seriously?
You are on record spouting vile Islamophobic rhetoric about the Holy Quran and you seem to think you have the moral high ground?
Who do you people think you are?
Both of you are violating the “Courtesy Guidance”.
Yea, Its not caring about random books and caring about lives instead but that might be hard for you to understand. It’s your supposed brethren being slaughtered yet you seem to be shedding no tears for their lives that are lost.
All I’ve seen from you is justifications for the shooters and never sympathy for the shot in PoJK. All this talk about holiness of scripture is archaic to me for you seem to have to hold no similar sacredness for human life. Furthermore, all that talk really seems to be a device for you to signal “Muslim khatre mei hai” type sentiments. You seem to be offended at any criticism of the shooter (Pak Fauj) or its dictator (Munir). At the end of the day who cares about the poor protestor in PoJK the “world-bank class” will drive over their corpses for their trips abroad regardless.
How does India deal with sedition in Occupied Kashmir?
You are no one to cast aspersions on how Pakistan deals with sedition in AJK.
Just as the Indians on this site are offended by criticism of Modi, I am offended by nastiness directed towards Pak Fauj. Most Pakistanis love Pak Fauj.
Don’t get personal with me. Accusations of me “driving over corpses” are not on.
The Indian state deals with sedition with a soft-touch. Even hardened terrorists are often appealed to emotionally by their parents and loved ones before any actual violence takes place. Furthermore, direct shooting is avoided as much as possible. Perhaps Pakistan should learn something about how to deal with its own citizens by looking at the model of the Peaceful Indian Jammu and Kashmir. This is the reason why even several former terrorists have become supporters of the Indian state.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8mo0XB4IBM
I don’t need to be anyone to decry the shooting of innocent peaceful protestors. You aren’t a real liberal if your heart doesn’t beat for the peaceful protestors. It is actually a large aspersion on your credibility as someone who claims to be ‘center-left’ in your politics to be offended at this. Nobody objected when you made a principled stand for the protestors in India so you shouldn’t surprised when the sentiment goes both ways.
Yet, we have many Indians making careers out of insulting Modi in the media and online. People may get offended but never violent or even socially exclusionary against such people. Pakistanis are in a much worse place socially and economically so they should really try to self-reflect on their current state.
Please!
How many teenagers did the Indian State blind with pellet guns during the Burhan Wani uprising?
That’s a “soft touch” according to you?
Your State has left Kashmiri Muslim women as “half widows” and “encountered” Kashmiri Muslim men.
Who are you kidding?
The bottom line is sedition is not acceptable–in either India or Pakistan.
We also saw the nastiness directed at Calvin re: the CJP protestors so this thing about your heart bleeding for “peaceful protestors” is disingenuous.
You love protestors in Pakistan and hate protestors in India.
Well, the Pakistani State will clamp down on sedition in AJK or anywhere else in our territory. Just as your state clamps down on sedition.
Its great that you support shooting protestors but please don’t put that animus on the rest of us.
OK.
I’ve already demonstrated to you how your country deals with protests in India-Occupied Kashmir.
You guys are no one to cast aspersions on the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.
Clearly for you, Pakistani protestors are good and Indian protestors are bad. It shows that the real issue for you (and for many others here) is the national security of Pakistan. That’s something you just cannot stand.
This is rapidly becoming a pointless conversation.
This conversation sort of became pointless 100 comments ago..
How does India deal with sedition in Occupied Kashmir?
Far too softly. We have at least 2-3 separatists who are members of the current Parliament. I am not even getting in to other positions of power and privilege they enjoy.
this is serious hinduphobia. Ramayana is not mythical. please stop saying so.
Him saying its mythical doesn’t make it true. We know it is Itihasa.
Kabir please stop trolling.
You are welcome to your beliefs and others are welcome to theirs.
There’s no need to get triggered either way. This is true for everyone.
WARNING: No flame wars. I will edit / delete any content as I see fit across the board.
When are you going to call out the nasty and bigoted comments made about the Holy Quran?
You have nothing useful to contribute on this blog except be a low level troll. You cloak your hindu hatred with your too clever by half rubbish.
“You have nothing useful to contribute on this blog”– I posted pieces about English Literature and Hindustani classical music. It’s a different matter that people are not particularly interested in such topics.
What exactly have you contributed?
As for “Hindu hatred”– this is a disingenuous accusation since you have demonstrated your hatred for Muslims.
I have made it clear that I hate Hindutva (a political ideology) and not Hinduism as such.
I have publicly sung Kabir and Meera bhajans.
For example:
https://open.spotify.com/track/0BGkthf2tkilcoPM2tNswO
The “Ramayana” is mythology and not scripture. It’s in the category of “The Odyssey” not the Bible or the Quran.”
We Hindus consider it Itihasa ( “Indeed it was” or “history”).
You are a straightforward Hindu hater. Again, I have no issues with it because you are after all nothing more than a Pakistani Muslim. You should just own up to it so we can all keep it real and have honest conversations.
Please look up what the word “mythology” means in English.
“You are a straightforward Hindu hater”– After your unhinged (now deleted) comment, you really have no credibility on this matter.
You are a straightforward Islamophobe according to your own logic.
Please stop. This is now getting out of hand.
Requesting everyone to not engage in conversations which are clearly not meaningful.
Exercise the choice of no response.
I’ll try your idea but tbh I’ve never done that before ..
Honestly, its tiring seeing how often the Green side of the website just wants to enjoy their victim complexes. Every single conversation just ends up being how big of a victim they are while burying their own skeletons without any hesitation.
I posted an essay above (that we published in “The Peshawar Review”) by Professor Harbans Mukhia which is about his family’s experience during Partition.
So this accusation that Pakistanis are not concerned about non-Muslim suffering doesn’t apply–at least not to me.
https://thepeshawarreview.substack.com/p/partition-my-father-and-his-wife
mostly it is the Hindu and Sikh populations who are nostalgic about their ancestoral homes. They cherish this. you can see this in the number of shops names after Multan, Rawalpindi etc. In Karol Bagh. Karachi bakery in Hyderabad is a nice example. Their grandsons still talk of their roots.
For the mohajar, the travel was to get the power they had lost in Delhi, and they got it. Their sons enjoyed it. Even up-to 1972 people were migrating from North india. I had met a similar guy in gulf. I had a junior Muslim colleague who studied in A M U, and said that most graduates would migrate to Pakistan and end up in govt. jobs.
There is no nostalgia on the scale that the Hindus,/sikhs have.
Yes an odd choudary like wasim akhram visited their village in haryana.
The longing seen now by the grandsons/daughters is because of the slightly reduced opportunities and the disappointment that Pakistan has not shaped up similar to turkey etc and that india appears to be doing slightly better.
Yes if Pakistan had played a defensible Capitalist game; it could have been Turkey+
Huge missed opportunities. The cost of Partition in the Indian Subcontinent has probably Delayed universal Prosperity by generations.
Its surprising they didn’t phase Indepedence over the century; various gradations
https://rshinde.substack.com/p/the-puzzle-of-pakistans-poverty
I think Rohit Shinde wrote about this on his substack. Its a rather detailed article about how Pakistan is missing out on several low-hanging fruits for its economy so much so that even non-oil rich fundamentalist regimes outclass it economically. Egypt is similarly restrictive of its citizen’s rights however it remains a lot more prosperous despite being an open military dictatorship unlike Pakistan’s hybrid setup. Pakistan if it had simply remained a developmental state after the 70s it could’ve been at or been better than India’s GDP per capita levels.
Excellent article
This is not true. There are plenty of shops in Lahore named things like “Amritsar Sweets” for example.
I don’t think it is right to separate “Muhajirs” from other refugees. Most refugees (on both sides) were Punjabis crossing the Radcliffe Line. Because they settled in other parts of Punjab, they are not referred to as “Muhajir” in Pakistan.
My maternal grandfather’s relatives fled Amritsar for Sialkot. They spent all their lives longing for Amritsar.
My paternal grandmother was from Agra. So my relatives on that side can be called “Muhajir”. There is still a longing for Agra in our family. I remember my father having us watch “Garam Hawa” because it was basically the story of his family.
Partition was traumatic for both sides.
If people want to get an objective understanding of Partition, they should read Manto’s short stories (particularly “Toba Tek Singh”). Urvashi Butalia’s “The Other Side of Silence” is a fantastic non-fiction source.
Lots of
Kashmir Punjabis from Amritsar?
Yes, my maternal grandfather’s side is Kashmiri-Punjabi.
It does raise the question though. Does it count as cleansing if the leaving is voluntary and the populace has given their assent for it?
Also, is it cleansing if Delhi is now > 15% Muslim.
In comparison Karachi(51% Hindu)/Lahore(40% Hindu+Sikh) and have no hope of going past low single digits ever.
Comparative victim hood is an unpalatable practice.
And yet it feels like the internet floods itself with incessant history revisionism by a populace able only to identify solely with their co-religionists loss and not their perpetration.
The choice is to correct the narrative or not jump into the mud wrestling.
The Muslim population of Delhi going from 33% in 1941 to 6% in 1951 is ethnic cleansing. What other word do you think is appropriate?
Anyway, let’s not get into semantics.
Obviously, Lahore was ethnically cleansed as well.
There’s a book by Professor Ishtiaq Ahmed called “The Punjab: Bloodied, Partitioned and Cleansed”
I think you should read Shah Umair’s Substack piece. He’s not a Pakistani by the way but an Indian Muslim.
As for people “able only to identify solely with their co-religionist’s loss”, any honest person would acknowledge that that phenomenon exists on both sides.
The Hindus on this site generally don’t care at all about Muslim suffering and when it is brought up they will find all kinds of excuses for it. The same goes for the other side.
one another sad fact which is neglected and did not get the attention it deserves is the east bengal issue.
“biharis ” who went to east Pakistan from bihar are still in refugee camps in Dhaka.
Some rich hindus stayed back only to migrate later. The poor hindu who came here were utterly gutted.
The movies made by ritwik ghatak are heartrending.
Delhi centric india let down bengal.
Nehru and Patel nipped the idea of united Bengal in the bud, despite SC Bose and Suharwardy both aligned on it. Granted, a lot of goodwill was expended after direct action day and a share of hindus and SM Mukherjee were more convinced of their own version TNT at that point.
I think a 4 unit Confederal India would have been an interesting concept..
(Deccan – Bengal – Punjab – Hindustan/Centre)
Pakistan should try it out : a confederal Pakistan. Run this experiment on a smaller scale in the laboratory of Islam, and prove that Jinnah’s hustle was for the ‘rights’ of minorities.
I’d be very in favour of a confederated Stan..
I tried to raise a similar question in the other thread: what kind of reorganization will take place in Pakistan if the new provinces are made. Would they be like the Swiss, competing and improving? or like NE India? or like China?
Pakistanis have tried their hand at Indian style provinces and democracy, ‘Indo-Pak’ cuisine as they like to put it. Maybe there is wisdom to be found in the Chinese way, Paki-Chinese cuisine.
If Pakistan devolves more power to states, some will inevitably fall into India’s gravity well. PoK i.e. the so called AJK and GB are Indian after all.
Most Biharis were repatriated by Pakistan and many even made it out illegally to Pakistan. However leaving even a single Bihari in the East let alone thousands, is a stain on Pakistan’s political class and history.
Delhi Centric India is the cause of Bengal’s suffering. It was India’s involvement and armed support to a terrorist organization like Mukti Bahini that is responsible for the upheavel and massive bloodshed that led to the creation of Bangladesh.
Of course, the Partition of Bengal was equally terrible.
Post 1971,we obviously don’t hear too much about it in Pakistan since it doesn’t really concern us.
Urdu literature also tends to be about Punjab and UP.
So the reduction of muslims from 33% to 6% also factors demographic dilution from the west punjab refugees. Delhi’s population doubled from 900k to 1.8m in that period. Still, approximately 75% of the muslim population evacuated. The sense I get is that there was indeed a lot of existential pressure to leave and it was largely the old Delhi/shajahanabad enclave that was able to defend itself, but muslims outside of that and another few enclaves were vulnerable. Perhaps the top 20% of Muslim society, the intelligentsia and bureaucrats benefited from a more cordial interdepartmental transfer type of situation. Why was it not a 100% evacuation like right across the border in what is now haryana? Evidently the military conducted what was a politically agreed population transfer in punjab province, a department was stood up just for this, but not in Delhi or UP. This is also why, despite being a stones throw over the provincial boundary, Delhi evacueees all went to Karachi, but a family from Karnal went towards Lahore or the canal colonies
oh yes what an excellent comment.
Karnal and Delhi are not fine but they became totally different ethnicity (Khi Muhajirs vs. Lahori Punjabis)
Came here to say exactly the same thing but desisted because I know the Crescentiate’s arguments are not from good faith and usually just full of disinfo. If I am not wrong, one of the green brigade even made a laughable claim that Delhi was Muslim majority – yeah, perhaps inside the four corners of the Red Fort for a few years. Doesn’t make it an irreversibly Muslim land like Pakistan now is.
Another factor – Delhi’s boundaries are no longer the same. Several Hindu Jat villages have been merged and their culture and lifestyle totally subsumed by the larger Punjabi culture that dominates NCR now.
Haryana – Gurgaon are those Hindu Jat villages?
Don’t even have to go that far. Lots of what today counts as just Delhi proper used to be Hindu Jat villages – Shahpur Jat is a prime example. Not just those, even the Western UP-North/East Delhi axis has had a lot of Hindu Jat villages
Is Pakistan an irresistibly Muslim land?
We forget that in the age of intense techno-corporatism; *all religions* are under threat.
Is Pakistan an irresistibly Muslim land?
Would require the most extreme contrarian to say it is not.
All conditioned things are impermanent. When one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering.
Dhammapada, Verse 277
The people are, the land is not.
Fwiw, greater NCR currently has possibly 4-5 million muslims (not including bangladeshis). By any measure a concentration of global significance. Naturally, they are not principally the descendants of old stock delhites, but from other parts of the gangetic plain. Even if we characterize the partition-period evacuation of the majority of delhi muslims as ethnic cleansing, it is not analogous to Lahore in my view, for which I would say that Amritsar is the apt analogy. Punjab was both de facto and de jure ethnically cleansed and it was absolutely thorough. Delhi was right on the border of Punjab province and the inbound punjabi refugees instigated the pogroms against the local muslims, but they did not have state sanction — albeit its likely that local police colluded with them. I view Delhi as a spillover of a chaotic Punjab civil war, not a discrete instance of hindu-muslim conflict. Most of India did not experience high level violence and we have to keep in mind, while >60% of muslims would be under the territory of newly created Pakistan, the vast majority of the subcontinent’s largest muslim cities remained in India.
Don’t let one bad actor’s fixation repeatedly hijack and derail conversations.
I thought the ethnic cleansing of Delhi was a spam comment but then Girmit’s comment shows that Delhi shed 75% of its Muslim population, so interestingly enough it was one of the few places outside of Sindh-Punjab to be “cleansed” of minorities so to speak..
Keep in mind though, it was not nearly as thorough as Punjab, where the East Punjab and West Punjab governments formally agreed through the Military Evacuation Organisation (MEO) to conduct an all-out 100% population exchange. In Delhi, the official government policy was to prevent forced evacuation. Nehru, Mountbatten , Azad and others were personally on the ground trying to control the chaos. In contrast, in the muslim plurality walled cities of Amritsar and Jalandhar, where they were holding out in same manner as the Delhi-Shahjahanabad population, but the military came in as a matter of policy to evacuate them. Also we are dealing with a situation of >300k recently decomissioned ww2 vets with combat training and and often heavy arms who were fighting with a lot more organization and firepower than bats and pipe-bombs of urban warfare in Delhi and UP.
For all of Nehru’s poor governance, one cannot fault him on his humanity, esp during partition.
During the worst of the rioting he threw his body in as a personal shield to save people and bring calm. It’s a level of bravery and command of personal respect which is incomparable with very few leaders in history.
“Cleansing” is an immense disservice to his actions and stance.
It’s suprirsing that Indians don’t know about this. Delhi riots of Aug-Sep 1947 were pretty infamous, whatever Muslim population that is left in Delhi is because Nehru personally went out to stop the rioting and cracked down hard.
It is weird to not find much information on it outside of books, let alone a wiki page.. but here is an interesting Australian govt archive
You expect people to treat you nicely when you’ve created the rupture that has upended their lives and created one of the worst crises in the 20th century? Some introspection may help.
Same old wailing and blame game. We have gone way past this.. but let me indulge you again:
The partition of Punjab and Bengal happened at the insistence of Congress. There would have been no partition bloodshed if Punjab was not divided. There would not have been any “rupture”. India also wrongly claimed many princely states, the worst was Kashmir which was Muslim majority and contiguous to Pakistan and as per their own logic of division of these provinces, should have gone to Pakistan. But hey, you wanted to control Pakistan’s water so here we are.
So……….Punjab and Bengal should not have been partitioned?
Btw ‘Direct Action’ muslim mob violence pre-dates partition. It was cynically deployed as a means to push for Partition.
Punjab and Bengal were Muslim majority provinces and should have been part of Pakistan in their entirety.
No amount of gaslighting and twisted narratives will make Muslims esp the Hindustani elite from Delhi the victims of partition that was at the forefront of the Pakistan project. You got what you wanted now live with the consequences.
Nullus commodum capere potest de injuria sua propria
Pakistanis do not regret Partition inasmuch as the Yanks don’t regret the War of Independence.
There is so much emotion on both sides of the debate that there is no clear analysis. Communalism probably explains the animus alas.
They definitely regret not controlling Delhi and significant parts of India though.
Not really.
The only territory we are concerned about is the Disputed Territory of Occupied Kashmir.
We have no claims to “India proper”.
Is there regret for losing our homes in Agra and Lucknow? Of course. Just as many Indians regret losing their homes in Lahore and Karachi.
Not so fast …
https://cabinet.gov.pk/SiteImage/Misc/files/political_map_pakistan.pdf
Pakistan officially claims Junagarh and Sir Creek.
The Nawab of Junagarh acceded to Pakistan just as Maharaja Hari Singh “acceded” to India.
In any case, the claim to Junagarh is there just to annoy India. No one really cares about Junagarh.
Occupied Kashmir is a different matter.
Go slow (again) … here is the chronology
Nawab of Junagarh acceded to Pakistan on the 15th of August 1947.
Pakistan’s government accepted the accession on 16th of September 1947.
Tribal militias invaded Kashmir under approval of Pakistan’s government in October of 1947.
Maharaja Hari Singh signed the accession treaty on October 26th 1947.
And finally Indian troops marched in and took over Junagarh on 9th of November 1947.
Pakistan Occupied Kashmir is the jugular of India. More explicitly it is the Sigmoid Sinus of India’s head, and Pakistan’s hold on it gives us Idiopathic Intracranial Hypertension. Our hill Punjabi and GB brothers across the LoC look to us for their salvation.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/jul/28/pakistan-accused-firing-unarmed-protesters-kashmir-killings
Pakistan accused of fatally shooting 30 unarmed protesters in Kashmir
BBC says the number is 40. We can no longer stand by and just watch.
Know that we will not stop at PoK though, we will also endeavor for the return of Chitral to India, which was forcibly taken from the Maharaja in 1911 by the British. Without it the erstwhile Jammu and Kashmir has a border but no actual route to Central Asia. Breaking China-Pakistan land bridge and breaking through to Central Asia is a civilizational goal. We have to liberate PoK first though.
BB is describing the plot of Dhurandar 3 😂
I am not BB. But whatever.
In the short term I think it is only fair: For India to let river water flow, Pakistan should let Indian goods flow into Kabul. One geographic reality cancelling the other geographic reality. IWT preamble says was it was signed in “spirit of goodwill and friendship” and “cooperative spirit”. The cooperative spirit we demand flows through Wagha, Munabao, and Kargil-Gilgit-Chitral to Afghanistan.
The clock is ticking, the Chabahar-Zahedan rail line opens in 2027, the Chenab-Bias link tunnel is …
We need teen guna lagaan
You will be then allowed to send your slaves over the Hindukush
Goodluck otherwise
“Please don’t enslave us, we are not kaffirs anymore”. How the Indus vaasi survived the Turushkas.
‘We’
haha …
Out of curiosity, are there Qureshi Pashtuns too? Two whips and a migration … a Jaiyyad-Sayyed makes.
‘send your slaves’
Wow
Stop trolling
Your previous handle has good articles; BB is the best of the 3 or 4.. we can re-enable authorship for BB
I thought you were being unfair to him but this guy is BB.
His trolling gave him away.
He may or may not be BB but he is definitely acting like a troll.
I recommend this thread be closed. It’s becoming increasingly pointless.
Threads can be automatically closed once they reach a certain number of comments (let’s say 100-200).
Razib used to start a new “Open Thread” after every 100 comments or so.
on your recommendation; the Pakistani song thread is an Open Thread.
I think KK has given up any pretence on not being BB now.
Sure.
Your designs on any part of Pakistan will fail. We are a nuclear power.
Nothing is more important than the territorial integrity and national security of Pakistan.
It has been said a million times,
Irshad-Irashad
It has been said a million times,
but in Urdu mushaira we repeat the same lines
that Soviet Union was also a aaitami daayan
But its nukes could not stop its territorial decline …
Wah-wah! Kya baat hai!
If you really want to risk nuclear war, it’s up to you.
DG ISPR said just the other day that any further Indian misadventures like “Sindoor” will be responded to with disproportionate force.
National security trumps everything. The Islamic Republic will never lose a single inch of land again.
These Indian fantasies of destroying the Islamic Republic are beyond ridiculous at this point.
Pakistan risked nuclear war in 1999. Why can’t we? PoK is occupied Indian territory not Pakistan.
Islamic Republic doesn’t lose inches. It loses square miles and entire towns. Scenes like today’s Balochistan have not been seen since… since forever in India.
as the Russia-Ukraine war shows; it’s never about capturing territory but rather strategic depth..
Baluchistan is not Bangladesh.
India could also let Bangladesh secede because it was Muslim.. very different circumstances. Hindu Bengalis would have zero inclination to join Muslim-majority secular Bangladesh.
Roads through Pakistan for rivers of India is a fair trade, don’t you think?
Why is proposing recovery of PoK considered trolling?
Pakistan officially claimed Junagarh in August of 2020, Why shouldn’t India claim Chitral in the same vein?
Pakistan has fenced and taken over Afghan territory. Why hold them to different standards re capturing land?
Balochistan is not India’s concern. But its condition shows Pakistanis their security state’s capacity.
Switch to Open Thread BB- also why don’t ressurect your old profile, which has good posts to its name.
Kishore should only talk about Ghana Shana..
Did you know DGISPR’s terrorist abba is making electricity from Bushra Bibi’s jinns.
“Go slow”– Don’t you dare condescend to me.
Your dreams of getting Azad Kashmir and GB are delusional. Those areas have never been under the rule of the Indian nation-state.
Please recall that the people of GB rose up against the Dogra Maharaja in 1947. All the people of GB want is to become full citizens of Pakistan. Unfortunately, GB cannot be made a province since it is part of the Kashmir Dispute.
Considering what India has done to Kashmiri Muslims in Occupied Kashmir, you are no one to criticize the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.
40 “unarmed protestors” is nothing compared to the Kashmiri Muslim women that have been raped in Occupied Kashmir, Kashmiri Muslim men who have been “encountered”,etc.
It is beyond hypocritical for Indians to bring up Azad Kashmir without examining what you all do in the Occupied territory.
The whole point of bringing up Junagarh is that because it was Hindu-majority, India conducted a plebiscite there to go against the Nawab’s accession.
Because Kashmir is Muslim-majority, no plebiscite has ever been conducted there.
The whole logic of Partition was that Muslim areas go to Pakistan. Had Kashmir been part of British India the entire thing would be Pakistani today.
“Don’t you dare condescend to me.”
How is asking to go slowly over facts condescension?
“Your dreams of getting Azad Kashmir and GB are delusional.”
Pakistan officially claims the actual Kashmir, Jammu, Ladakh, Junagarh, and Sir Creek. So much delulu and yet you accuse me.
“Those areas have never been under the rule of the Indian nation-state.”
And when were Kashmir, Jammu, Ladakh, Junagarh, and Sir Creek under the rule of Pakistani nation state.
“Please recall that the people of GB rose up against the Dogra Maharaja in 1947. ”
And the people of Kashmir sided with India to beat back the Pakistani invaders in 1947, 1965 and 1999.
btw, GB people did not rise up, read up on Major William Alexander Brown. He has been discussed here.
“All the people of GB want is to become full citizens of Pakistan. Unfortunately, GB cannot be made a province since it is part of the Kashmir Dispute.”
Neither is true. GB is not being made a province because you guys are cheapskates stealing their net hydel profit. Because GB is not an officially recognized province under Article 1(2) of Pakistan’s constitution, the federal government argues that Article 161(2) does not legally apply to the region. You also make them beg for what would otherwise have been our GB brothers’ constitutional rights. You deny them article 160, National Finance Commission, and articles 153 & 154 Council of common interest.
“Considering what India has done to Kashmiri Muslims in Occupied Kashmir, you are no one to criticize the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.”
They have been doing very well. Thank you very much.
40 “unarmed protestors” is nothing compared to the Kashmiri Muslim women that have been raped in Occupied Kashmir, Kashmiri Muslim men who have been “encountered”,etc.
Oho! look at the gall!
“It is beyond hypocritical for Indians to bring up Azad Kashmir without examining what you all do in the Occupied territory.”
We examined it plenty and solved it. We will keep solving it till LeT and
“The whole point of bringing up Junagarh is that because it was Hindu-majority, India conducted a plebiscite there to go against the Nawab’s accession.”
I just gave you a detailed chronology, if I expand on it you will accuse me of condescending to you. Pick your poison.
GB and AJK are not provinces of Pakistan precisely because of the Kashmir Dispute. We are not going to annex our portion the way you all have annexed your portion. This is the legal position.
Pakistan will continue insisting on the UN Resolutions relating to Kashmir.
Occupied Kashmir is not and has never been part of India. It is a Disputed Territory.
Are you going to pretend your Army has not raped Kashmiri women and “encountered” Kashmiri men?
Whatever issues the people of AJK and GB have with Pakistan, at least they aren’t under the rule of non-Muslims.
India acted hypocritically in conducting a plebiscite in a Hindu-majority territory with a Muslim ruler and refusing to conduct a plebiscite in a Muslim-majority territory with a Hindu ruler.
But then hypocrisy is to be expected from Indians– no surprises there.
.
There is no Pakistani portion. It is all illegally occupied and increasingly oppressed by Pakistan. And we will take it back.
Are you going to pretend 40 people in double quotes have not been killed by Pak fauj just last month?
“India acted…”
This is why I gave you the chronology. But you didn’t catch the original hypocrisy in accepting Junagarh’s accession. What Pakistan got is called defeat.
ADMIN NOTE: STOP BB and Kabir. Write articles with different pov’s.
Emotion etc is all after the fact. Bottom line is that for the il-logic of religion based segregation and TNT to be justified, Hindus and India cannot be seen as anything other than evil/bigoted.
That’s the bottomline. Everything else is …secondary.
I don’t know if it’s that stark..
Pakistanis are complex as are all human beings.
The problem with BP; people reach for simple explanations
Sorry, but please show me a handful of Pakistanis who disagree with TNT, or don’t claim that ‘Hindoooootva’ rule in India justifies TNT.
I’ll wait.
Urdu press in Pakistan is very free and vigorous..
I think also you kind of need to appreciate in-group versus out-group?
K&Q have multiple criticisms of Pakistan, but they are never going to do it in what they perceived to be a hostile space.
For instance one may fight with the loved ones, but will they air the dirty laundry.
I’m going to ….ignore the juicy tangent that is Pakistan’s “urdu press” and its vigor. 🙂
I don’t have any qualms criticizing india and its warts. Now I understand that folks residing in Pak simply cannot risk their life by daring to criticize its military – it has been made a ‘constitutional offense’ that can result in indefinite imprisonment. Even ‘elites’ aren’t safe. Ask that Lawyer Mazari lady.
So I’m not looking for Pakistani ‘criticism’ as a litmus test. I’m simply looking for a capacity for honesty and objectivity.
Some people want a religion that forgives their sins and a morality that condemns everyone else’s.