The review of Dhurandhar 2 has now been posted. Read it if you haven’t. The comment thread on the Ikkis post, which ran in parallel, illustrated the review’s central argument more vividly than any film still could.
A film that educates audiences to hate will eventually produce hateful audiences.
We have been moderating this site long enough to know that comment threads are a pressure gauge, not a debating society. What happened over the last 48 hours was not debate. It was escalation; predictable, cyclical, and ultimately ending where it always ends when people get sufficiently worked up: in the language of violence.
BB was on a Dhurandhar high. We understand this. There is something in the film’s rhythm, the josh of it, as he put it himself, that makes a certain kind of Punjabi Muslim-hating Bollywood patriot feel ten feet tall. We are not without understanding. He had just watched a four-hour film designed specifically to produce this effect. But understanding the cause does not excuse the consequence.
The line was crossed when he repeated, almost verbatim, dialogue from the film, the “ghar mein ghusega bhi, marega bhi” register, and directed it as a personal threat at Kair. Saying one will infiltrate Pakistan and hold a gun to someone’s head to make them chant a slogan is not josh. It is a threat. That it is practically unenforceable is beside the point. The language normalises exactly what we argued Dhurandhar 2 normalises: the idea that the other must be humiliated into submission, not merely defeated.
BB’s commentating rights are suspended until Thursday, 2nd April. Every comment he attempts in that period will be deleted. When the suspension ends, reinstatement of authorship will depend on whether the Saffroniate faction of our commentariat, can reason with him collectively that certain red lines exist even in the heat of subcontinental rivalry. Those lines are not about Pakistan. They are about the difference between argument and menace.
Kabir and Sbarrkum retain their authorship. Kabir was asked to stop and did not, and we say so plainly. But nothing in his conduct approached the violent register BB eventually reached. We are also honest about the asymmetry here: Brown Pundits tilts toward Bharat, that is India; everyone who reads this site regularly knows this. That soft tilt means Kabir, Sbarrkum and Qureshi operate in a forum that is structurally not neutral. The least we owe them is consistent application of the rules.
We want to say something about the Punjabi dimension behind all of this, because it is analytically interesting and not merely polemical.
The specific psychosis on display was not generically South Asian. It was Punjabi Muslim. Sindhis, for reasons rooted in their extraordinarily deep relationship with their language and soil, do not typically present this way. The Urdu-speaking Muhajir community has its own compound psychology; one that is genuinely rooted in a Persianate-subcontinental synthesis, an organic cultural memory with its own coherence. One can understand the Urdu speaker’s claim to a syncretic civilisational elsewhere.
But the Punjabi Muslim who denies his Hindu heritage, who treats Partition as a founding rather than a fracture, has bought into a psychosis that makes him a stranger to his own soil. Punjab is not merely an Islamic land. It is a land of Jats, Rajputs, Gujjars, Sikhs, Hindus, and Muslims who share the same genes, the same rivers, the same agricultural calendar, and the same emotional register. The denial of this, the insistence that one is Arab by faith and therefore by civilisation, is a psychological dissonance.
We are all, in some atavistic sense, Hindu. Not Hindu in the BJP sense. Hindu in the original sense: people of the Indus, rooted in a particular soil, shaped by a particular civilisation that precedes all the conversions and all the partitions. Kabir could, if he chose, say “Bharat Mata Ki Jai” and mean something true by it; not a Hindu supremacist slogan but an acknowledgment of the soil that made him. That is not the egregious part of BB’s comment. The egregious part was the gun.
We restored the full comment thread and will keep it visible until Thursday. We did this deliberately. The thread is the evidence. Anyone who wants to understand why we moderated the way we did; firmly on both sides, without ideological favouritism, need only read it.
Brown Pundits exists because the subcontinent deserves analysis that is neither exclusively Saffron nor Crescent. That standard is not always met. But it remains the standard. Fairness, balanced by wisdom. That is all.
You have completely missed the mark about Punjabi Muslims.
I am not Punjabi Muslim and I don’t think Kabir is either.
Taking pot shots at Punjabis seem to be a very Indian repsonse, it projects envy due to Punjabi cultural dominance on both sides of the border post 1947.
There was no Hindu religion before the British grouped all the pagan traditions together under a geographical moniker and named it Hinduism, so nobody is denying ”Hindu roots” here. We celebrate our native cultures with much fanfare, to the shock and horror of a neighbouring country.
We had pagan ancestors, so did the Arabs, Persians and Turks.. and all converetd to Islam over the centuries and contributed to it. We don’t have any qualms about accepting our pagan history, infact it sometimes is more fascinating. However as an Indian or Pakistani Muslim, you cannot own it openly because our pagan traditions havent gone extinct like those other places, and these pagan followers see it as an opportunity to try to label us as traitors to the land.
This is why Indian Muslims felt the need to create Pakistan, as Shuddhi movement amongst the pagans, fed by false British narratives, tried to rid itself of Islam and Islamic influences in the region.
The best thing that can be hoped for is an uneasy co-existence, but that appears to not be possible because our pagans want revenge for turning 1/3rd of the land to Islam.
Movies that promote hate, are promoted there, and thsoe that shun hate -even if true – are labelled propaganda. Dehumanizing the other is in full force via media, which is just a leadup to war. With the weapons we now have, we are hurtling towards ruin.
There’s also something generational happening here. The 4chan, “bakchodi”, “edgelord” gamer culture is a big part of the indian youth lacking civility. Brainrot is a real independent variable to structural political differences between Indian nationalists and Pakistan counterparts. Actual kinetic military confrontation is more rare now that in the 1948-1971 period. Despite the past having actual risks, the borders were much more open. Now, Pakistan, excluding nuclear blackmail, has never been less threatening, but the urban middle class is peaking in its mania. I would be cautious to extrapolate too much from this cultural moment we are living in.
Qureshi’s rendition of Hinduism as an equivalent form of paganism is fairly problematic.
I agree, but its hard to persuade otherwise. There’s genuine tension between the actual diversity of indic folk religious practices and seeing them as fragmented vs seeing a coherent “dharmic” superstructure. Cultural history can be interrogated like genetics in a way, we can choose the temporal framing, and find a way to lean towards one or the other. That said, I think its a bit politically convenient to imagine Indus dwellers as qualitatively alien to and outside the ambit of the classical prakritic/sanskrtic ecumene. One can make a much stronger argument for the distinctiveness of Assam or Kerala.
but even then I imagine they are variants on a theme?
Maybe the respective elite cultural vocabularies are variants? Take Sangam era Tamil Nadu for example, despite its maturity in classical antiquity, my understanding is that their literate culture was still a by product of the encounter with Indo-aryans,not an in situ development. And yet their poetry shows a radically distinct sensibility. Reading it in translation, I would not know that this culture was any closer to the Ganges than to the Nile. So i think there are deeper substrates that aren’t derivative of the indo-aryan culture, and were not necessarily exported and fused with the folk cultures of other regions. Southern kinship systems, totemic lineages, our shrine culture, our pastoral oral epics, the unique marine cultural landscape.ect
oh that’s fascinating.. I know nothing about this
If interested a compilation of verse, writing and reference by the Barr-Kumarakulasinghe family of Tellipalai, Jaffna
https://wilpattuhouse.com/MiscStuff/GennealogyStuff/Tamil%20Hymns%20Poetry-%20Barr-Kumarakulasinghe.pdf
My grandfather was a Tamil Poet (while a Admin to Brits)
I cant read write Tamil so asked Vijayvans opinion of granfathers Tamil
VijayVan
Excellent craftsman of traditional Tamil poem with it’s rules of prosody, meters, and phonics. This is what literati used to write till Modern Poetry took over. Even now there are many versifiers in traditional meters. In fact, some themes especially the last verse in page 8 directly trace their roots to Sangam Tamil. Their ragas and talas are set to Carnatic music. These verses are ditto from Bhakti poetry. On a side note , Chritsian Tamil is an interesting phenomenon. It usually eschews pure Tamil and incorporates many Sanskritised words which people know. Your document is peppered with such sansritised Tamil
It’s not problematic, since I donot use it in a deregatory fashion. Greek, Roman and Norse religions were pagan, and neo-pagans today identify as such in Europe. It follows that Indian religions were also pagan, since the term is used to define polytheistic traditions that are very loosely connected.
This is not some new opinion or a revisionist history, infact historians like Romilla Thapar and several others had held these exact same views.
I think “pagan” just sounds too much like “kafir”.
I don’t think you mean it that way but it would come off as offensive to many Hindus.
People raised Muslim have a visceral antipathy towards any form of idol worship. But this is our issue.
Unfortunately, I’m going to have to disagree. This isn’t strictly a generational difference, such animosity towards Pakistanis has been going on for well over a decade. BB’s language and sentiments towards Pakistan has been a staple among Indian posters on any Pakistani forum, blog, comment section etc. I’ve observed this since the late 2000s and many of these posters tend to be of the older gen – 70s, 80s, early 90s born.The younger generation just learned from the older ones.
ha, I am sort of clubbing anyone under 35 as young and digital-native in the indian context. I try to test my generalizations against people I interact with offline. The online world makes really fringe things seem mainstream. The vast majority of people don’t comment online. I think BP is such a great space, but in general, pathological online commentors are often (not always!) cranks. Its very easy to fall into confirmation bias. I could go into a pakistani forum and stay long enough to hear some dehumanizing remarks, and feel comfortable in strident political stances. Offline is the test for me. I know plenty of pakistanis, and have been to the country (as a hindu). I also have thousands of interactions with Indians of all types and I mix freely with hindu nationalist types. I have plenty of extended family in the Indian armed forces. I know how people talk 5 drinks down. The online discourse is so distant from real life. What our parents considered slighting remarks to muslims was so incredibly tame compared to what we observe in the online hate bubble
I think that this kind of language towards Pakistanis has been normalized since 2014.
Indians talk about Pakistanis the way Israelis talk about Palestinians.
It seems like the basic criteria of Indian nationalism is to hate Pakistan and Muslims.
From my observation, this has been going on longer than that. Yes, 2014 was a flashpoint for the RSS/BJP base the way Trump’s election was for the alt right in America but these sentiments have always existed and on both sides of the aisle in the political system. I’ve come across similar comments as his since like 2010 across multiple platforms. Pakistani forums, social media spaces and comment sections have been getting brigaded with such vitriol for a very long time. When I speak to older people such as my father and uncles who have worked in tech and even managed websites/forums as a hobby, they’ve dealt with this kind since the 90s. The indoctrination and hatred towards Pakistanis and Muslims goes a very long way back. 2014 was just the mask off moment.
Agreed that anti-Pakistani and anti-Muslim sentiment has always existed. But I don’t think people felt free to be as hateful as they are now. “Ghar me ghuske marangay” etc is a post-Modi phenomenon.
A movie such as “Dhurandhar” would not have been made pre-Modi.
I grew up in the US with many Indian friends. My family has always been heavily involved with Hindustani music. Our Indian acquaintances and friends probably had political differences with Pakistanis but no one was ever hateful on an individual level.
2014 certainly changed things.
For my own part, I used to be much more pro-India. I come from a family that deeply admires Nehruvian secularism. But the events of recent years (particularly “Sindoor”) have made me much more of a Pakistani nationalist.
When one sees how Muslims are treated in India, one feels incredible gratitude that a sovereign Pakistan exists and at least 250 million of us don’t have put up with that kind of second-class treatment.
These new Hindutva guys actually think that we celebrate events like Pahalgahm or Mumbai attacks. Even the most rabid Islamist on this side didn’t justify these two events. I have heard more about 26/11 in the last 5 years than in the first 10 proceeding and vowing revenge for it..
Excluding Kashmir (due to reasons discussed) Pakistan honestly does not have any designs on taking over India or fighting some war of conquest. Maybe the first generation after 1947 may have some yearning to unite through conquest but second generation onwards are fine with the national boundaries and look more towards the Middle East.
I also used to buy the theory that Pak Mil wants to continue enmity with India to justify their hold over the country, but this theory doesnt make sense anymore.. an entity as entrenched as the Pak Military does not need any oustide reason to rule now since they have absored or quashed almost all opposition.
However Indian politicians needs to stoke enmity towards Pakistan for domestic optics, and the Hindutva need to do this against Muslims due to internal demographic and political issues. It only harms India in the long term.. something they think more money will fix (but it won’t)
I agree about Pakistan not having ambitions of conquest outside of a very limited theater in Kashmir. Most hindu nationalists/chauvinists understand this. You are picking up on a dramatically amplified signal of online trolling (and perhaps mentally imbalanced people). In the same vein, even the most ardent fanatics on this side don’t take akhand bharat seriously.
From the outside its easy to underestimate how integrated muslims are in India and how varied the muslim poltical situation is in each and every region of the country. The idea that I, or even a locally influential person, could bully a muslim to say “bharat mata ki jai” is ridiculous. *Some* of the middle class angst against muslims is probably based on the fact they punch way above their weight in street politics, in contrast to the suppressed influence nationally. So while the mood amongst muslims here is that , yes, it sucks that the ruling party accommodates voices that disrespect us brazenly, and yes that’s demoralizing to a muslim wed to the liberal , civic nationalist “idea of india” , there is no demoralization of being a karnataka muslim or a kerala muslim. My own friends laugh at the concern of liberals for them under “the regime”, because if the last 12 years have proved anything, its that the most chauvinist central administration means squat on their local autonomy.
It’s not just the massive online troll farms/Indian nationalist bot armies but Akhand Bharat and the balkanization of Pakistan has been promoted as the ultimate goal by several Indian podcasters, talking heads, pundits, defense analysts, politicians, current and former diplomats, active and retired military and intel officers. People like Gaurav Arya, Sushant Sareen, Ranveer Allahbadia, are not exceptions, they are sadly the norm and are just the propaganda wing of the Modi government.
I don’t know about Karnataka and Kerala but there have been documented cases in other states (maybe mostly North India) of Muslims being lynched for supposedly eating beef or for not chanting “Jai Shree Ram” or whatever.
The demonization of Muslims in North India is incredibly worrying.
I keep saying that India is a secular state (on paper) but it is turning into a Hindu majoritarian state.
for the benefit of all, ‘ girmit’ is a snack made primarily from puffed rice and spices, onions etc,etc..some thing in the ‘jhal muri’family.
This is essentially a middle karnataka to northern karnataka snack.
On the side: a midterm election to the state assembly is to take place in davangere south constituency, (middle karnataka) which has a significant Muslim presence. a section of the Muslim leadership of Congress mooted a Muslim candidate. this was brushed aside by the high command and state leadership of the party and handed the ticket to the 25year old grandson, whose grandfather held the seat. This is a rich lingayet family who are ruling this area for last 40 years.
does girmit have a say on this?
All this to show that at the core congress and BJP are similar. so to say that, India is different after 2014 is a stretch.
Modi reflects what a Hindu on street feels.
Hemanta Biswa Sarma, the current CM of Assam, who was a congressman all his life, and now in BJP takes stances which even hardcore RSS guys feel shy. There is an election there too.
I have yet to get the direct scoop on the Davangere situation, so I don’t know how much to view it as a fiefdom passing to a successor vs actual succession. But on the theme of “all politics is local”, the lingayats of Gulbarga have a totally different relationship with muslims than those of Davangere. Another good example of long term community polarization is the Dharwad south seat (now Haveri), which was a bastion of the muslim Sanadi family several decades ago, but now entertains a BJP candidate regularly. My broader point is not that muslims and non-muslims (for reasons I prefer not to say hindus because the tension is with all others) don’t polarize. In fact they might be polarizing for understandable reasons, it’s more a comment on the extreme hate rhetoric which to me is quite different. Regarding Assam, they are a unique outlier in terms of how culturally different they are from the hindutva leadership, but their concerns are the most understandable. The changing demographics of their state, and it’s implications are real, and this is going to get ugly. It’s worth looking into how Assamese muslims view Bengali muslims.
ಗಿರ್ಮಿಟ್ ಅಣ್ಣನಿಗೆ ಒಂದು ಪ್ಲೇಟ್ ಮಿರ್ಚಿ ಬಜ್ಜಿ, ಒಂದು ಖಡಕ್ ಛಾಯ್.
(one plate mirchi bhajji and one khadak chai to girmit Bhai!!
Congress high command pretends to appease Lingayats by allowing them to retain their family fiefdoms when they were CMs during BJP or earlier Janata governments. High time the community realizes that they are treading on water demographically and power is not assured.
Lingayats?
Things are getting a bit spicy. We have Muslim leaders in Davangere purportedly supporting BJP to defeat the Congress candidate there. Congress seems to have upset the Muslim vote bank by not giving them a ticket.
Ultimately, the brutal logic of demographics just cannot be challenged. I hope senior leaders in Congress realize they get Muslim votes because of tactical choices rather than their so-called secular credentials. Perhaps a good time for AIMIM to make an entry?
Pak Fauj definitely needs India as the external enemy. Pakistani nationalism is based on being anti-India. TNT is our official ideology
But the irony is that India itself is strengthening the hold of Pak Fauj. The best way to weaken TNT is increased people to people contact etc. We are essentially the same people.
But when Pakistanis see how Muslims are treated in India and when India violates our sovereignty, we become more grateful to Pak Fauj for being the only institution able to deter Indian hegemony.
I keep saying this on BP but there is hatred on both sides. My own feeling is that Indians hate Pakistan much more than Pakistanis hate India.
No offense but I don’t buy the “same people” narrative. All humans are the same if you really get down to it. I’m not exactly sure why Pakistan needs a special relationship with India. Pakistan and India are separate countries, separate nations, 3 – almost 4 generations removed from the partition with each of our own unique experiences as nations and different ambitions and trajectories. We are nearly 4 generations deep into azaadi so no, people to people contact would not weaken our sense of nationhood or erase our desire to remain a separate sovereign country. One of the biggest testaments to this is the relations between the diasporas outside the subcontinent, especially here in the US, you see the Pakistani community get absorbed into the American Muslim melting pot while Indians end up creating their own spaces (due to mass immigration) or some assimilate into White America (same holds true for non-religious South Asian Muslims). The only way Pakistaniyat is extinguished is through some 1492-style Hindutva inquisition of Pakistan but that’s a pipedream for the RSS.
I didn’t mean to imply that people to people contact would “erase our desire to remain a separate sovereign country”. It would certainly weaken the hard version of TNT.
Bangladesh and India have a lot of people to people contact–or at least, they had until recently. And those two countries have a much more normal relationship than India and Pakistan.
I don’t think Pakistan needs a “special” relationship with India. But it would be nice if we can move towards a more normalized relationship with our neighbor. After all, geography can’t be wished away.
As for “same people”, I don’t know if you are Punjabi. Punjabis on both sides are certainly the same people. The creation of a man-made border certainly doesn’t change our genetics or our history. As I’ve mentioned my own nana was from Amritsar. Many Pakistani Punjabi families have roots in East Punjab.
Our experiences of the US diaspora must be different. My family was always part of a South Asian community rather than the “American Muslim melting pot”. Perhaps because we were not particularly religious. Also, we were heavily involved in Hindustani music which of course tends to be an Indian activity.
To give you a better idea of where I’m coming from you, you can read this:
https://kabiraltaf.substack.com/p/what-being-a-centre-left-pakistani
I don’t know about weaken, I just don’t think we need any justification or theory to justify our existence or purpose. People to people contact hasn’t really made any Pakistanis change their faith or convictions, in any meaningful numbers. The average person isn’t thinking about political ideology or history. Pakistaniyat is now a philosophy, a phenomenon, in its own right much like Kashmiriyat. As years go by, every unique experience Pakistan goes through as a nation, whether it was the Gwot or political instability/national tragedies, natural disasters or even positives like winning a world cup or an olympic gold medal or a diplomatic victory, whatever it be, further cements the identity.
I don’t think Bangladesh-India are a good example of people to people contact improving relations; Bangladeshis are some of the most anti-Indian people currently, like I’ve met way more Bangladeshis critical and even borderline resentful of India more than many Pakistanis especially your average left of center dawn-reading Pakistani urban dweller. Bangladeshis are more anti India than us but they do depend on them a lot more, the closeness with India is due to necessity, Bangladesh is geographically surrounded by India and economically they can only thrive by having good relations with them, sort of like the USA and Mexico, the latter has no choice but to try and have good relations or they’re committing economic kamikaze. As for Pakistan, I think we can have reasonable relationships but more like China-Japan, Japan-S. Korea or China-Vietnam – great trade ties and people to people contact but not too chummy – still bit of a friction and consanguineous rivalry, enough to encourage healthy competition. Maybe I’m too Americanized but I think we can’t achieve successes as a state unless we stay in constant competition to motivate ourselves to get better, the desire to one-up your neighbor is necessary to move the nation and human race forward.
I don’t really agree with how ethnic or ethno-linguistic identities are defined especially in South Asia and I do believe identity isn’t strictly defined by language or provincial boundaries. Who you consider your people varies person to person based on what you prioritize, so yeah, you’re free to feel kinship with East Punjabis over a Baloch from Jacobabad or a Memon from Karachi but not everyone has to share that rubric.
Personally I don’t know where I’d place myself in Pakistan’s cultural mosaic due to my mixed (Pakistani) background, I just feel very Pakistani because of that. I do have a lot of Kashmiri relatives settled in Punjab, so I respect Punjabis but don’t necessarily identify with it and even on that side of my family, people identify differently depending on several factors like where they grew up, language proficiency, social class, religiosity levels, political leanings etc
On the topic about Indian-Pakistanis relations in America, I think there’s a growing wedge between the two communities and yes, like you said perhaps your family being not very religious could be a reason for why you gelled better but I think it also depends on where you lived and the particular Indian and Pakistani communities found there. My state has had a huge influx of Indians due to the h1b program so it’s changed the social fabric and complexion of society, it’s very different from the older waves of Punjabi and Gujarati immigrants who settled in the Northeast and California. The massive waves of southern Indian immigration in the past 20 years has made a lot of younger whitewashed Pakistani-Americans think that we don’t share much at all with Indians, quite a contrast from the kinship South Asians feel in the UK and Canada and that’s to do with kind of immigration we’ve been getting.
My mom’s family is Kashmiri-Punjabi. My nana actually had “Khawaja” in his name.
My point with respect to Bangladesh-India was that people in West Bengal and East Bengal share a certain ethnic kinship– just as people in West Punjab and East Punjab share a certain ethnic kinship. The Punjabi identity long predates either the “Indian” or “Pakistani” identity.
Even before 1971, one of the issues was that the East Pakistani leadership wanted to trade with Calcutta. The Kashmir cause didn’t mean very much to them–unlike what it meant to West Pakistanis.
I think the current Bangladeshi antipathy to India has to do with the fact that Hasina has been given refuge in Delhi. But I’m not a Bangladeshi so I could be wrong.
I agree with you that Pakistan doesn’t need an ideology to justify its existence. Pakistan is a reality. It’s a nuclear power. The country will continue to exist.
However, The “Two Nation Theory” is the official ideology of the country. If you had grown up in Pakistan, you would have been made to take “Pakistan Studies” from primary school until you completed your undergraduate degree. “Pak Studies” is basically state propaganda.
I ideally want to see a Pakistan which moves away from the hard version of TNT and normalizes with India. This doesn’t seem likely since India is now increasingly committed to its own version of TNT– that India is a Hindu nation just as Pakistan is a Muslim one.
On the diaspora: I grew up in the DC area. My dad was with the World Bank. My mom is a doctor. So that was our particular social circle of Indians and Pakistanis
.
Interesting perspectives. Regarding one of them, an Indian Punjabi or Gujarati person would probably also see a huge wave of Telugu H1B immigrant and feel they have not much in common and hard to socialize. Id venture that even Keralites would feel the Telugus culturally distant. I feel closer to Sri Lanka culturally than many parts of India.
You used the example of South Asian kinship in the UK, which is a tad ironic to me because the brawling and bad blood between Sikhs and Pakistanis was legendary in the 80s/90s , of which we had nothing of the sort in the US. A harsh truth is that the south indian h1bs never genocided their muslims and our goddess shrines share compound walls next to dargahs and no one blinks. In Punjab, where you feel kinship, it was the Sikhs who sent the trains full of dead bodies to west Punjab, not RSS. Don’t mean to make too many assumptions about your views in particular, but I’ve noticed a broader Punjabi cognitive dissonance that goes unacknowledged, it was your cultural kin who committed these crimes against you , not the inscrutable distant hindu. It was for the sake of these same Punjabis that Congress rejected the cabinet mission plan, and it’s mainly in the imagination of them that kashmir was in their political ambit. The rest of india is pragmatically doing damage control on the stupid situation they created, because losing a province could create anarchy.
Don’t forget that it was Punjab and Bengal that were divided. The only provinces to be cut in half.
You are correct that there was more Partition-related trauma in Punjab than in other parts of India or Pakistan.
Punjab looms large in the Pakistani cultural space given that the majority of the population is Punjabi and it’s the most powerful province.
While there was violence in the Punjab, there is also more cultural bonhomie between Punjabis on both sides. We share a language, a culture etc. A Pakistani from Lahore can relate to an Indian from Delhi far more than he or she can to an Indian from let’s say Chennai.
“more partition related trauma” is an understatement. Down here there is *zero* partition related trauma. The Punjabi bonhomie you mention is the whole point, people confuse that for trust. Healing the trauma has almost nothing to do with the rest of us. The best partition plan would have seen the entirety of Punjab province in Pakistan, with the latter as a de facto Muslim state and not de jure.
A very civil discourse, very unlike other discussions on this topic.
A pleasure to read
Yes, it’s amazing how civil discussion can be when the usual suspects are absent.
There will obviously be more trauma in the provinces that were divided.
But there was trauma in UP. Qurrutulain Hyder has written about this.
Wouldn’t you say that there was trauma in Hyderabad related to the “police action”?
If the entirety of Punjab had gone to Pakistan, the holiest sites of the Sikhs would all have been in Pakistan. I don’t think they would have taken kindly to that.
Also had all of Punjab gone to Pakistan, Kashmir would have had to go to Pakistan. There would have been no land route from India.
I think my response got flagged for spam.
This is overstating TNT. TNT is not relevant and not the driving force for anything outside of Pak Military where its emphasized because India is what the soldiers will likely be fighting. Educated Pakistanis consider TNT very important from age 15 to age 20 when they learn about it. And then they forget it because its not relevant at all. TNT doesnt matter to lower classes at all.
Also the similarities are really overstated. 250 million Pakistanis arent the same people amongst themselves so its a stretch to consider an additional billion Indians same as us. Honestly the similarity is very overstated because both countries use Urdu
/Hindi and English so can understand each other and can share jokes and hate. But this is for the elite and middle classes.
When you look at the lower levels of society, you see little to no similarity because they exist outside of those language bubbles.
I do think that Indians hate Pakistanis more.. and I also believe this came about more recently… the dislike was always there but in the past it was equal and mutual.. somewhere in the past 10 years the Indian side has really become extremely delusional and malevolent even in small interactions.
I think you are understating the importance of TNT. It’s not just important from age 15 to 20. “Pak Studies” is introduced as a subject to very young school children. I don’t know how familiar you are with the current school curriculum.
TNT is the basis of Pakistan’s existence–it’s not just the military. The whole reason we exist as a sovereign state is that we believe Hindus and Muslims cannot live together in the same country and the Muslim-majority provinces of British India deserved their own nation-state.
I never said all Indians and Pakistanis are the same people. But Punjabis on both sides of the Radcliffe Line are certainly the same people. Punjabis are the majority population of Pakistan.
Agreed that Indians hate Pakistanis more. I think post Modi’s ascent to the prime minister’s position, the anti-Muslim and anti-Pakistani nature of the Indian public has become clear for all to see. They really hate us on a visceral level.
TNT has sadly been proven to be true. Quaid-e-Azam was absolutely right. India is by default a Hindu country while Pakistan is a Muslim one.
Disagree about TNT since I am a product of Pakistani education system, it’s importance is overstated in current politics or how Pakistanis see themselves now. Most people know that Pakistan was created to protect Muslim interests, and that’s about it. It doesnt mean there is one nation called India, because that’s an even bigger fantasy.
Overstating the important of TNT today just implies that if TNT goes away, Pakistanis will somehow magically become Indian. Nothing of this sort is happening. There is no one nation, or two nations, there are many nations here, each proud.
Punjabis are also not the same. There is very marked difference between Potoharis (more similar to Pasthun) and Central/Eastern Punjabis (more similar to Indian Punjab) and even more so with South Punjabis (more similar to Sindhi). And if people were so similar, why did they commit a genocide against each other in 47? Clearly religious differences are just as big as ethnic differences..
“If TNT goes away, Pakistanis will magically become Indian”–
I’m not saying that at all. Pakistan is a nuclear-armed sovereign nation-state. It’s not going anywhere.
But we can become a more normal nation-state instead of an ideological state.
“Punjabis are also not the same”– As someone from a Punjabi family, I disagree. My grandfather’s relatives had to leave Amritsar at Partition.
Punjabis are cultiurally and ethnically the same. The only difference is that Pakistani Punjabis are Muslim and Indian Punjabis are Hindu/Sikh.
Religious differences are obviously important. The ethnic cleansing (NOT “genocide”) of 1947 happened because of the religious passions stirred up by the Pakistan Movement and its Hindu counterparts.
In aggregate, probably yes. In per capita terms, almost certainly not.
But the Indian population (and especially on the English-speaking Web) is so much larger than the Pakistani equivalent that you may feel this because of what you are exposed to. By the same token, your typical online Indian is exposed to constant invective from Pakistanis LARPing as modern-day Ghaznavis and Ghoris and Aurangzebs. So the cycle keeps going.
How many Pakistanis are “LARPing” as Ghaznavis and Ghoris? They are a fringe element.
Admin Note: Kabir, please tone it down.
LOL. Your missiles are literally named those names.
Welcome back!
As an aside; we will have to a chat with BB Bhai.. Kabir is completely right that the Commentariat has diversified.
We must be much cleared about the lines of conduct throughout the Blog!
So? The names were given by the military. The military is the guardian of the “ideology of Pakistan” (Two Nation Theory).
”Per capita” term is useless. South Indians and Bengalis by and large do not care about Pakistan, but they are also not influential in running the Indian governement or make Indian policy.
The hate is coming from the rest of India, wherever BJP wins, and government sets the tone for the peasants.
They key difference is that muslims are part of our everyday lives, not like north american style black-friend tokenism. Neighbours, colleagues, landlords, restaurant owners, and so on. The biggest BJP youth wing guys in my area have muslim flatmates and colleagues. Its quite strange if you don’t know the social milieu. The west, and perhaps our own english-medium discourse, uses the minority rights paradigm of US race relations when analyzing other cultures. I walk through life here without anyone being able to infer my religion. I don’t think this is at all the same in pakistan. I’ve been to Lahore and Karachi, and fwiw, was treated wonderfully, but I was also exotic and the people I interacted with had a very limited understanding of hinduism (why would they?). On the contrary, in India, unless you live in a gated community you will surely hear the call to prayer echoing regularly in just about any place you could ever imagine living. There will be a masjid in walking distance. Its generally understood by Indians that Pakistanis are similar in speech and faith to “our muslims”, creating a hateful abstraction is not tenable.
I think that 12 years of the Modi regime has allowed people to express certain views that they may have been hesitant about expressing in the past.
The Indians on here may not agree with me but Modi’s politics is largely based on demonizing Pakistan. Pakistan is used as a proxy for Indian Muslims whom the party sees as the enemy within.
Movies like “Dhurandhar” would not have seen the light in Congress days.
While there were certainly India-Pakistan tensions (and wars) during the Congress era, Congress is generally able to separate the Pakistani government/military from the Pakistani people. We largely saw dialogue and people to people contact continue.
I also think Pakistanis are generally less hateful towards India than Indians are towards Pakistan. We may not like India (I think most of us don’t) but we don’t have fantasies of the absolute destruction of the country. Far too many Indians salivate at the thought of Balochistan seceeding.
The rise of cable news allowed (actually outrageous) events like 26/11 to persist in the news cycle indefinitely. The process that allowed for Modi started much earlier. I’m not even sure that his government even gave the fanatics a fillip, if anything , the country is building immunity to their main narrative. Many people actually believed that he was going to turn the country into Singapore in one term, and that the only thing preventing it previously was Congress corruption , enabled by (among other things) appeasement politics. Such naive thinking is fairly rare in 2026
I do realize that 26/11 fundamentally changed many Indians’ thinking on Pakistan.
I do feel–and I know many Indians will disagree with me– that electing a man whose followers call him “Hindu Hriday Samrat” and who has Muslim blood on his hands (Gujarat 2002) as PM three times reveals a certain level of Muslim hatred in India that is very troubling.
As a Pakistani, this is not really a worry for me. If India violates our sovereignty, we are a nuclear power and can defend ourselves. But I would hate to be an Indian Muslim right now. Basically, they are second class citizens.
Hindus fundamentally dislike Muslims (and vice versa). It’s sad but true. It doesn’t bode well for co-existence in India.
modi became chief minister of gujarat even before be was an MLA. To believe and say that he engineered riots is stupid.
Even leading advocates of this theory such as rajdeep sardesai, Barkha Dutt have moved away from this point.
Even congress doesn’t speak this language any more.
More Hindus than Muslims were killed and arrested in riot control. At best he can be accused of inaction in the initial stages.
Gujarat always had Hindu Muslim clashes.
Events leading to riots were horrific. A full bogie of woman, children and everybody were burned alive. This was not an accident.
This was the tipping point.
First of all, I believe the appropriate word is pogrom and not riot.
The responsibility for action or inaction rests with the Chief Minister of the state.
The fact that such a man has thrice been elected Prime Minister speaks volumes about India.
How do you reconcile this with the fact of the November 2008 terrorist mayhem in Bombay? One which was organized, sponsored, and guided by Pakistani military intelligence? Bombay is quite far from Kashmir.
And this was among the last of such attacks that began in the 80s. There were the 2001 attacks on our Parliament. Growing up in the 80s and 90s, not a week would go by without me hearing about some or the other terrorist atrocity (mostly in, but far from limited to, Kashmir).
The Punjab insurgency, knowledge of which dominated my childhood, predating even the Kashmir insurgency, was also supported by Pakistani intelligence.
So who cares if the average peasant in Punjab or the average trader in Sindh is “generally less hateful toward India” (if that is even true). Your powers-that-be have, since 1947 maintained inveterate hostility towards us with a ferocity that was unmatched by their Indian counterparts until very recently. (And I say this as no fan of Modi or the Hindutva movement).
The attitudes you identify and deplore in India are only going to increase, because all of the stuff Pakistan has done to us since ’47 is being constantly replayed on the web and in social media to a new cohort of Indians almost on a daily basis. The information exposure is so high and increasing that what I might regard as old history will boil the blood of the youth (unfortunately). This would have happened (and will continue to happen) regardless of whether Modi was in power or some sort of leftish coalition.
I am speaking about the feelings of the common person not of terrorist groups.
If you want to rehash “all the stuff Pakistan has done to us since ’47”, I have a long list of all the stuff “you” have done to “us”. So you better be prepared to hear it:
You all deprived us of our share of British India’s finances until Mahatma Gandhi want on a fast.
You all broke our country in 1971. We will never forgive or forget that.
So the hostility goes both ways.
The difference is that the average Pakistani doesn’t bother about India until our sovereignty is invaded or our water is turned off.
I think we “rehashed” all this stuff long ago, Kabir. Back in the 2010s when I was more active on this forum.
As I said earlier, and you probably missed it (I tend to be verbose), I was trying to tell you what’s going on with the current generation thanks to the “social media” information revolution that has been inflicted upon all of us. The rehashing is not going to come from me, it’s coming (in increasing volume) from the next generation of Indians.
If you are really interested in debating with an open mind about these topics (which you weren’t a decade ago), then you should pick better examples than the one you gave above. As you very well know, Pakistan was in the process of invading Kashmir when the question of finance transfers were raised (in ’47-’48). If country A is being invaded by country B, you should pardon the former for not giving a whole lot of money and other governmental resources to the latter. About 1971, well…..there’s the small question of the entire war being triggered by Pakistani army murdering and raping its way into East Pakistan and pushing millions of refugees into India. But sure, India’s the bad guy there.
Insulting our intelligence…..again!
I’m really not interested in what you think. Indians are in no position to give lectures to Pakistanis. You have no moral high ground.
East Pakistan was unequivocally Pakistani territory. There was no excuse for dividing the Islamic Republic into two. Indira Gandhi was referred to as “Durga” for breaking Pakistan.
Luckily, you can never break Pakistan again since we are now a nuclear weapon state. Our territorial integrity is an absolute red line.
Just as you are entitled to your Indian nationalist point of view, I’m entitled to my Pakistani nationalist point of view. Indians don’t have a monopoly on the truth.
You don’t have to believe it but we are least bothered by you unless you invade our sovereignty. We are not the country making propaganda movies like “Dhurandhar”.
Please introspect about the sickness within your own society. Or don’t if you don’t feel like it. But you all have no right to say anything about Pakistan.
For the record, the maternal side of my family is Punjabi (well Kashmiri-Punjabi) but settled in Punjab for generations. My maternal grandfather’s relatives fled Amritsar at Partition.
Agreed that the concept of “Hinduism” was a British invention. When it came to the census, anyone who couldn’t state that they were Muslim or Christian was labelled “Hindu”. That’s not necessarily how the natives referred to their beliefs.
I wouldn’t use the word “pagan” as it just seems offensive.
I was at the Lahore Museum recently and the galleries are full of pre-Islamic art on display. There are paintings of Radha Krishna, statues of Buddha (from the Gandhara civilization) etc. No one seemed particularly bothered by it.
Of course, the identity of Pakistan is based on being a Muslim nation. And there are Pakistanis who want to pretend that their ancestors were Arabs and Persians.
The “Ertrugul” phenomenon was a thing. But I think India also has a role to play in this. The more they define being “Indian” as being “Hindu”, the more Pakistanis will go in search of an alternative history and culture.
XTM previously said “Pakistan is the Israel of the subcontinent”. I think it is the Ukraine of the subcontinent. Sufi Islamism ~~ Catholicism in this analogy. Both separatisms seeded/turbocharged by the empire in mid 1800s and fully flowered in 20th century.
The original comment by BB was over the line and I agree this is an increasing trend among the RW. But I also think the concern about it is overwrought. The median RW is against PK sponsored terrorism (now metamorphosed in to campaign to slow economic growth), supported Israel against Hamas, but broadly opposed it against the current Iran war. This tells me it has an innate sense of balance/nyaya and Dharma. Even the Iran embassy at least till few days back was posting pre-islamic Persian heroes and appealing to shared Vedic/Avestan heritage. Their backpedaling in recent days will of course feed hindu rw paranoia of being a global minority surrounded by hostile forces. This is also one of the reasons why Israel gets a baseline support from hindu rw.
To all the folks arguing here that PK society is not anti-hindu, you should go visit the X handle of PakistanUntold. GemsOfBollywood also does a job highlighting the motivated anti-hindu propaganda of early Bollywood movies. Dhurandhar if anything is a meagre attempt to reset the balance. “Equality seems like oppression to people used to privilege”
Yes we are surprised Pakistan doesn’t try to “own” the Vedas & Sanskrit..
It’s such a dissonance from one’s racial and ancestral heritage.
Even if one doesn’t believe in Hinduism; one can be culturally Hindu.
Why should we be “culturally Hindu”?
The whole point of Pakistan is Islam. It’s literally the “Islamic Republic” of Pakistan.
Why not
Because this is not something that Pakistanis want.
The state of Pakistan was created in opposition to a Hindu-majority India, We are the homeland of British India’s Muslims. We are an ideological state.
If we become “culturally Hindu”, we might as well pack it up and go home. There would be absolutely no point to Pakistan then.
Pakistan isn’t so brittle surely
Why do you want us to give up the basis of our nationhood?
If we were going to be “culturally Hindu”, there didn’t need to be a Partition.
The entire point of Pakistan is that we are a country for Muslims. We are not a normal nation-state but an ideological state.
Anyway, most Pakistanis have a visceral aversion to anything Hindu.
Hinduphobia is a terrible thing alas and to be self-hating at that..
Hinduphobia is a terrible thing alas and to be self-hating at that..
.
Hinduphobia is a terrible thing alas and to be self-hating at that..
Hinduphobia is result of caste discrimination
I think you have to keep in mind the context of Pakistan’s creation. Whatever you think of the TNT it is the official ideology of Pakistan. The whole basis of our existence as a sovereign nation is that Hindus and Muslims cannot live together in the same country.
As Qauid-e-Azam said (and has been alluded to on this site in a comment recently): “Your heroes are our villains”.
I wouldn’t see we are “self-hating”. Most of our families have been Muslim for centuries. Being Punjabi doesn’t mean being “Hindu”. We’ve previously discussed Lahoris celebrating Basant despite its Hindu origins.
In an ideal world, I would like Pakistan to abandon the “hard” version of TNT and move towards being a normal state of all its citizens. But this doesn’t likely as long as India moves towards being a Hindu majoritarian state. Action begets Reaction.
“Action begets reaction”.
Old enough to remember when Hindutva was called a reactionary ideological response to the bigotry of political Islam in the subcontinent.
The Hindu Mahasabha predates Partition. The RSS was founded 100 years ago.
In any case, the point is that Islamism and Hindutva feed on each other.
Even if one doesn’t believe in Hinduism; one can be culturally Hindu.
Really. Even here in SL with many ancient totemic and pagan practices and predominantly Buddhist the average person does not claim to be culturally Hindu
I think it is because of the association of Hindu with Caste, the Varna Dharma
Aren’t Tamils, Hindu?
Aren’t Tamils, Hindu?
Most Tamils are still Hindu.
15% SL Tamils are Christians
And Tamils are still the most Casteist in Sri Lanka because they are Hundu
As an atheist I see polytheism and monotheism with their racist scripture. Caste in Hinduism and the Chosen people concept in Abrahamic religions are no different.
The basic problem is Chosen People concept and Caste are considered God given. So you cannot erase one from the other
The analogy between Pakistan and Ukraine is problematic.
Today’s Russia doesn’t recognize Ukraine’s sovereignty and nationhood. Ukraine gave back their nuclear weapons at independence. That’s why they are in the situation they are in.
Pakistan is a nuclear weapon state. Indians really need to get over thinking that you are ever going to conquer us. 250 million Pakistanis do not want to be part of a Hindu majority country.
As for “Dhurandhar”: I don’t think Pakistanis particularly care if Indians want to make propaganda movies. You are just instilling hatred in your own people. But you do you.
Indians should just leave us alone (and vice versa).
Yes nothing like Ukraine. Pakistan is not a cleft state.
I’ve been reading this blog for a few months now. This poster has always had a negative presence. Knew he was a reprobate when his first post was a very explicit, profane piece sexualizing and fetishizing Pakistani women – which is a patholigical fixation of Hindu fundamentalist types. I’m surprised he was ever given authorship, I always thought the blog admins would have higher moral rectitude and discernment. Giving a platform to such shady characters reflects poorly on what has otherwise been a well run and pedigreed blog. I appreciate the admins for establishing decorum and protecting the integrity of brownpundits.
Yes. I have never experienced such Islamophobia, homophobia etc than I have from “BB”.
I was always against his being given authorship here. That post on “haraam bits” was absolutely disgusting. It’s not just about Pakistani women. He’s also made comments about “settling” in the Kashmir Valley and by implication conquering Kashmiri Muslim women.
He’s basically your worst example of an Indian man. His only agenda here is to insult Pakistan.
I don’t think he’s particularly a “Hindu fundamentalist” though he does seem to support BJP etc. He seems like a young guy who treats cricket victories against Pakistan as victories on the battlefield and Bollywood propaganda as real life.
I was willing to just deal with him as a troll but the threats of violence have crossed all lines.
A small point: I would never say “Bharat Mata ki Jai”.
Primarily because as a Muslim it is against my religion to believe in any kind of god except for Allah. “Bharat Mata” is a mother goddess. This slogan is not a generically Indian nationalist one but specifically a Hindu one.
If we cannot ask Pakistani minorities to chant “Allah ho Akbar” or “Nara-e-Takbeer”, we certainly cannot ask Indian Muslims to chant specifically Hindu slogans.
I could say “Jai Hind” or “Hindustan Zindabad”. But I’m not an Indian so I have no need to say either of these things.
I don’t expect Indian citizens to say “Pakistan Zindabad”. Indians shouldn’t expect Pakistanis to chant Indian patriotic slogans.
Bharat Mata isn’t a deity, it was invented by Bollywood or something. So in the common understanding it is just “mother India” which is not unlike the personification of the motherland used by other muslim cultures from Turkey to Indonesia. The same protocols of solemnity that would be expected in discussing a goddess people believe in are not followed with Bharat Mata.
“Bharat Mata” was not invented by Bollywood. The concept dates to late 19th century Bengali literature. According to Wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bharat_Mata
I can’t speak for Indian Muslims. But Orthodox Islam takes the concept of shirk very seriously. We cannot bow to any gods other than Allah. So I will never chant a slogan that mentions some version of Durga or Kali. This is the same problem India’s Muslims have with “Vande Mataram”. “Mother goddesses” are anathema to Islam.
I wrote a long response to this but for some reason it’s in moderation.
The short version is that “Bharat Mata” wasn’t invented by Bollywood but goes back to late 19th century Bengali Literature. She was painted by Abanindranath Tagore in 1904 as a four-armed goddess.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bharat_Mata
Indian Muslims may make their own accommodations but Orthodox Islam takes shirk very seriously. There is no God but Allah. So you can understand that “mother goddesses” are absolute anathema for Muslims.
On Indian cinema:
“Smoker’s Corner: Ghosts on the Screen”
By Nadeem F. Paracha
https://www.dawn.com/news/1986163/smokers-corner-ghosts-on-the-screen
Bollywood is very much about profitable films
Of course. All film industries are.
The problem is when those films are in service to an ideology. The recent examples (“Padmavaat” etc) that depict Muslim rulers in caricatured and offensive ways are clearly in service to the BJP’s ideology.
Do you remember when Modi flew to Pakistan uninvited I think ? That was in the very beginning days of his leadership. I think Sharif was ruling Pak.
I had high hopes but everything has been a downhill in Pakistan since then. Not surprisingly, the relationship with India has been heading in the same direction.
I have a feeling that average Pakistani folk deeply distrust their civilian leaders w.r.t corruption and they see Army as an alternative to that.
It is disturbing to see Imran Khan held in a prison and that he’s about to lose his eyesight.
How do we go from here ? The reality is that:
1. Your heroes are my villains
2. You embraced a religion/culture that very much made me a 2nd class citizen in my homeland.
TNT was supposed to assuage this but it only made it worse.
If we don’t get along with each other we will always be pawns for bigger powers.
we are moving from the age of nation states to Kingdoms and Empires
Nawaz Sharif also attended Modi’s first inauguration.
That was long before “surgical strikes” and “Sindoor”.
Imran Khan incited his followers to attack Pakistan’s military installations. This should be a red line for any patriotic Pakistani. Never ever attack Pak Fauj.
“He’s about to lose his eyesight”– He’s being given medical care. That is a right given to all prisoners in Pakistan. His political party doesn’t get to insist that he be taken to the hospital of their choice.
“Your heroes are my villains”– So basically you agree with Quaid-e-Azam that Muslims and Hindus cannot live together and we need separate countries. This goes against the “idea of India”.
“2nd class citizen”– It is Indian Muslims who are second class citizens in a supposedly “secular” India. I don’t think you get to lecture Pakistanis about this.
As for “getting along”– We are not going to get along. The best we can get is a cold peace. Don’t violate our sovereignty and we’ll leave you alone.
If you are truly interested in improving our relationship, you need to resolve the Kashmir Dispute in a way that is acceptable to us as well as to you. Claiming that Azad Kashmir and Gilgit Baltistan are part of India is not going to improve things.
Lastly on “civilian leaders”– When it comes to India policy, civilian leaders are meaningless. India policy (and foreign policy more broadly) has always and will always be made by Pak Fauj. No one is going to trust civilians with anything that important.
Someday I will write about how Muslims have been treated like first among equals in modern India and continue to do so even under a so called Hindu Nationalist regime.
The broader point is this – despite TNT and its manifestation as a (TNR) Three Nation Reality, non-Muslims (although largely Hindus only but Sikhs to a large degree as well) have legitimate grievance with how the events of last ~80 years have treated them. Despite losing more than 1/3rd of our native land, extremist Muslims continue to hold significant power and influence in India. For all its claims to secularism, the modern state has been built on suppressing Hindu identity and assertion and elevating the myth of the noble patriotic Muslims – who supposedly choose to stay because they believed in a secular modern country – when the reality couldn’t be further from the truth. This gaslighting has been recurring theme in Bollywood since at least the 1970s when Indira Gandhi made a Faustian pact with the Communists and allowed them to dictate India’s education and cultural paradigm.
“2nd class citizen”– It is Indian Muslims who are second class citizens in a supposedly “secular” India. I don’t think you get to lecture Pakistanis about this.
I usually hate Twitter style anecdotes to prove a point but riddle me this – if Muslims were 2nd class citizens (similar to Hindus in Pakistan), can you point even one example analogous to this in Pakistan. If this one doesn’t float you boat, I can compile and share at least 100 more where Muslim street power continues to harass, rape and kill Hindus every day. https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/hubballi/waqf-verification-drive-triggers-concern-in-gokak-notices-served-to-650-landowners/articleshow/129783135.cms
And to make a broader point, is a community really persecuted when it has been and continues to be the fastest growing in the country ever since 1947? Could you please share numbers for the ‘growth’ of non-Muslims in Pakistan in the same period? Hell, we are on track to non-Muslim majority states turning Muslim majority within a generation. How are we to treat a potential demand for another partition then?
FWIW, I am no fan of the current regime in India. Its use of Hindu trauma and cynical, self-serving encouragement of psychosis to then position itself as our saviour is deeply disturbing and damaging to Hindu interests. That said, what this regime has allowed is the courage for a questioning of the constant state of apologia we’ve lived through since ’47, courage to question why we had to beg the state just for self-expression. We’ve only just begun to take baby steps there. Ironically, the BJP may be the biggest hurdle in this journey – topic for another time.
Do Muslims want another Partition?
Also is there the possibility of Muslim majority states?
The main pulse is the Biharfication, rather than Bifurcation, of India.
Another Partition is not a serious possibility.
It was a one time solution when the colonial power was desperate to leave.
Neither India nor Pakistan will stand for losing one inch of land. Not in a scenario where both are nuclear powers.
Disagree. Nukes aren’t even useful in full scale wars with an external enemy nation – forget internal afflictions with a population that is dispersed across the whole country.
The way I see it, India is rapidly heading towards one of two scenarios – another partition (and the attendant civil war) or gradual Islamicization.
India is more than 80% Hindu. How is there going to be “Islamicization”?
Honestly this sounds like a wild conspiracy theory.
https://blog.cpsindia.org/2025/01/religious-demography-of-india-i-kerala.html
Bihar is to the rest of India what South Asia/Indian subcontinent is to developed world – a cheap source of labour to spit on once their services are no longer necessary.
You sound like a Hindu nationalist. I really don’t know how to respond to this.
“Despite losing 1/3 of our native land”– Unless you’re a Punjabi or a Bengali, I really don’t know what you have to complain about.
It was only the Muslim-majority provinces that become East and West Pakistan. We didn’t take an inch of Hindu land for our country.
There was nothing sacred about the borders of British India. It was an artificial construct–a colony. The Muslim-majority parts of that colony had the absolute right to opt out of a Hindu-majority nation state.
If you’re a Punjabi Hindu whose ancestors were forced out of Lahore than of course you have a right to complain.
I don’t think it makes analytical sense to compare a constitutionally secular state to an Islamic Republic. I won’t belabor this since this topic has been discussed to death on BP.
But since you are so concerned about population statistics, it is a fact that the non-Muslim population of (West) Pakistan has increased since 1947.
In 1951, Christians were 1.28%.
In 2023, they were 1.37%
In 1951, Hindus were 1.58%
In 2023, they were 2.17%
I deliberately started with the 1951 census since 1947 is when the ethnic cleansing occurred on both sides of the Radcliffe Line.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Pakistan
Now that it has been proven to you that the Hindu population of Pakistan has actually increased in the last 80 years (since I presume you’re not really that concerned about Christians), I hope that this attack line against Pakistan can finally be put to rest.
On a side note, I’m not really shocked that none of the “Saffroniate” portion of the commentariat was at all bothered that BB basically made a threat of violence against me. I guess expecting you all to criticize one of your team was a bit much.
Had I made a similar threat of violence all of you would have been out for my blood.
But I guess people have no sympathy for their ideological enemies.
You sound like a Hindu nationalist. I really don’t know how to respond to this.
By the meter of most non-Indians, especially those antagonistic ones, I most certainly am. Consider me your alter-ego from Hindu/Indian side.
On a side note, I’m not really shocked that none of the “Saffroniate” portion of the commentariat was at all bothered that BB basically made a threat of violence against me. I guess expecting you all to criticize one of your team was a bit much.
Had I made a similar threat of violence all of you would have been out for my blood.
But I guess people have no sympathy for their ideological enemies.
Well, I have never condoned or justified BB’s behaviour. In fact, I have often lamented the lack of decorum in the commentariat but I neither speak for him, nor he me. Why should I feel the need to apologize for a third person’s behaviour?
“Consider me your alter-ego”: You are not my alter-ego. I’m not an Islamist. I’m a centrist Pakistani nationalist. I don’t vote in Pakistan since I’m an American. But If I did vote in Pakistan I would vote for PML-N, which is very much a centrist party.
You don’t know me in real life so perhaps this may be hard for you to believe but honestly I’m not that bothered about religion either way.
If someone on my “team” had made a threat of violence towards one of you, I would have certainly have called them out. There is no need to apologize for a third person’s behavior but you can at least acknowledge that it crossed a red line.
Nope, refuse to fall in to your rhetorical trap to guilt trip me. This is not some tag team boxing match in a cage where my guy pulled a gun to your head.
If someone had made a threat of violence against you, I would at least acknowledge that a line was crossed.
I guess that’s the difference between me and you. I can acknowledge when my ideological enemies are wronged.
If someone on my “team” had made a threat of violence towards one of you, I would have certainly have called them out. There is no need to apologize for a third person’s behavior but you can at least acknowledge that it crossed a red line.
If you think we are on teams here, perhaps you can start by apologizing to all Indians for Pahalgam and 26/11?
This is absurd logic. BB threatened Kabir. It is very personal.
This is very poor reasoning; what BB did was wrong and shameful.
Yes and you can be contrite about it; then engage in whataboutery
First of all, I have never defended Pahalgam or 26/11. A credible investigation has never been held regarding Pahalgam.
I am on record as saying that Pakistan should not use terrorism as a tool of proxy war against India.
Second of all, I’m an American citizen.
Guys, I just want to add one more thing. There will always be the “other”. How do you make peace with that fact ? I think most Hindus understand this except for pockets because of diversity within Hinduism. Agnosts/Atheists who put humanity first also tend to agree with this as well.
FWIW, my mother follows a Muslim fakir, Sai Baba. Frankly, Islam has always been one of the many Dharmas to most Hindus. Friction starts only when you talk about political Islam and the oppression that Hindu Dharmas have had to face in the past.
+1
While his origins are often cited as being born to a Hindu Brahmin family before being adopted and raised by a Sufi fakir
While his origins are often cited as being born to a Hindu Brahmin family before being adopted and raised by a Sufi fakir
Another self proclaimed prophet like the Bahai prophet
In a way all prophets are self-proclaimed.
Exactly and many take them at their word.
No different from Demagogue Politicians all over the world
This statement would be deemed very offensive by believing Muslims, Christians and Jews–all of whom believe in divinely revealed books.
While you are taking offence – add Hindus (specifically Bhakti adherents), Buddhists and Jains also. All religions based on self proclaimed divine insights.
I am well aware
but so what?
All religions based on self proclaimed divine insights.
The Buddha never claimed Divine insights. He was just a person (same for Mavira/Jain I think)
Fair enough. That said, many schools of Jainism and Buddhism do treat their leading lights as god adjacent. Mahavira is called Bhagavan etc.
Broader point remains – religions based on prophets are basically just personality cults.
Buddhism do treat their leading lights as god adjacent.
Maybe in India where everything is god adjacent.
In Sri Lanka the refuge of Theravada Buddhism, the Buddha is Teacher, he cannot grant favors,
Maybe in India where everything is god adjacent.
Sadly, this is very true. We are actually seeing the creation of a new god and new religion – Ambedkarism
I don’t know about SL but most adherents of Mahayana – East Asia primarily, do treat him as deity to worship. I think even Tibetan Buddhism has elements of that.
I am an atheist but my late wife was a Buddhist. When we lived in the US (mid 1990’s) regularly went to the NYC temple. At that time in a rented house.
One of the Buddhist Priests (later head) was a SL Uni contemporary
Below myself bowing to the head priest (now late) after Pirith (chanting)
Mahavir is called bhagwan, but if you take a closer look at Jain doctrine, any human can ‘become’ bhagwan’. Jainism is as close to atheism as you can get in a ‘faith’ FWIW.
By definition–at least in the Abrahamic religions– a prophet is someone to whom God gave a scripture. Moses was given the Torah, Jesus was given the Bible. The Prophet of God was given the Holy Quran. Islamic belief is that after the Prophet of God, the institution of prophethood ended forever.
Obviously non-Muslims don’t have to believe any of this.
But there is no reason to go down this road of calling prophets “self-proclaimed”. It’s gratuitous.
Thank you for reminding me that we have a thought and speech police here as well.
If your intention was to be offensive, then go ahead. It was simply unnecessary.
There is no absolute freedom of speech on BP. I am often accused of being provocative and my comments are edited.
I think a basic modicum of respect for the feelings of adherents of Abrahamic religions is not too much to ask for. You don’t have to believe in prophethood–just as Muslims don’t believe in your avatars– but calling our prophets “self-proclaimed” is uncalled for.
You don’t have to believe in prophethood–just as Muslims don’t believe in your avatars– but calling our prophets “self-proclaimed” is uncalled for.
I think a basic modicum of respect for the feelings of adherents of Abrahamic religions is not too much to ask for. You don’t have to believe in prophethood–just as Muslims don’t believe in your avatars– but calling our prophets “self-proclaimed” is uncalled for.
If you had read carefully my comments, I had called all religions (including Bhakti (Hindu) traditions) personality cults. Bold of you to assume I believe in avatars either.
Just like you said – respect does not equate to belief. I respect your belief in the divinity of your prophets but that doesn’t mean I have to do so too. If lack of publicly professed belief in others traditions is the touchstone you judge offensiveness on, then by a fair application of that principle, religions that claim there is no god but theirs are fundamentally and inherently offensive to everyone else?
I have no issues with what you believe. I took issue with you using the words “self-proclaimed” about the Abrahamic prophets. That is offensive to Christians and Jews as well–not just to Muslims.
Anyway this is not a hill I’m going to die on but there is no need to be gratuitously disrespectful.
You probably haven’t been around on BP that long otherwise you would remember that my calling “The Ramayana” fiction got me into so much trouble. If we’re going to be precious about Hindu sentiments, then we better not offend Muslim sentiments either.
The alternative is a forum where everyone should be prepared to be offended. That’s for the admin to decide but then that is equal opportunity offense.
The Islamic belief that “There is no god but Allah” obviously doesn’t apply to non-Muslims. I don’t really see what’s so offensive about it.
The Islamic belief that “There is no god but Allah” obviously doesn’t apply to non-Muslims. I don’t really see what’s so offensive about it.
The atheist belief that all prophets are self-proclaimed obviously doesn’t apply to Muslims. I don’t really see what’s so offensive about it.
If you’re an atheist, at least you are internally consistent.
However, your other comments that were so concerned about “Hindu interests” seemed to suggest you are a believer in Hindutva. You also throw around the word “Islamist” a lot.
For what it’s worth, I’m not particularly religious either. However, I don’t think that people on BP should gratuitously be disrespectful of anyone’s religion.
Anyway, I’ve made my point. I won’t belabor it here.
Off topic – you are completely right, without BB the tone of BP is very very high.
We need to ask BB to really be civil now.
A prominent issue not discussed here is that before 2014, terrorist attacks with Pakistan and Muslim links were routine in India.
Indians don’t wake up thinking who should I hate today.
Btw, the word Pagan is used in derogatory sense. Most Indian Hindus associate Islam with violence and ruthlessness, even Malayalis – speaking as quarter Mallu. It’s justified based on historical and current evidence.