Gujurati genetics

I was working on a project and decided to check Gujus. A few things

1) A few years ago a Bohra emailed me kind of irritatingly saying I underestimated the non-South Asian ancestry in Bohras. I double-checked and that seems plausible. Looking at this Bohra Patel sample I have, that seems to be clear.

2) Guju Brahmins are positioned like North Indian Brahmins.

3) Most of you know more about Lohannas than I do. I will say that the Sindhi Lohanna sample I have is even more “north-shifted” than the Guju Lohanna.

4) Patels are a numerous cluster, obviously. The two Vania samples I have are north-shifted, but very close to the Patels (Patidars)

5) I have a Solanki sample that is clearly outside of the Patel cluster and south-shifted

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girmit
girmit
2 years ago

I’ve read that Solanki is a later interation of Chalukya, a Kannada/Deccan dynasty. That a rajput subcaste is more south-shifted than the cultivator caste should be of interest.

Sumit
Sumit
2 years ago

Do you have any Koli samples ? They are the numerically the largest cluster of communities in Gujarat (24% according to wikipedia) and under-studied relative to Patidars who make up 12% or so of the population.

Also many Kolis have the last name Solanki and many have the last name Patel. But they are a different community from Rajputs and Patidar.

So I suspect the south shifted “Solanki” sample is from the Koli community. And maybe a portion of the “Patels” are as well if you are just going by the surname (rather than self reported caste like Leuva Patidar etc.).

List of Koli names, population data etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Koli_people

thewarlock
thewarlock
2 years ago

Its interesting the Guju Vania samples I’ve seen, including mine, cluster with S Indian Brahmins, but a lot of gangetic plain banias are more AASI shifted. I think it is the density of the AASI matrix that was there.

I’m basically dead center in cline, hence it makes sense I have a pan passing generic look.

Dheeraj
Dheeraj
2 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

thewarlock bhai I can recall the selfie you shared of yours once, and I felt you could easily pass as someone hailing from Rajasthan or UP(Sumit bhai looks like a long-lost brother of Sid Mallya haha)
But what I always notice with Indian descent people like yourself, Razib and Sumit bhai who were born in the States and grew up there, something makes you guys look, maybe slightly but noticeably, different from those who grew up here of your respective communities (and this is the case for me for any of the communities in SAsia). I don’t know what that is ascribable to, maybe the culture, diet, sartorial customs, environment, i dont know.

Belgarion
Belgarion
2 years ago
Reply to  Dheeraj

Rajasthan/Gujarat are not too different. We closely share linguistic origins too (our languages and dialects originated from Old Gujarati).
I’m Marwari, and genetically it’s hard to tell me apart from a Gujju. Looks are a different matter and a total grab bag, though.

thewarlock
thewarlock
2 years ago
Reply to  Dheeraj

Yeah. I have a theory that the original homeland of Guju Vanias is Marwar.

Interestingly, I think culture of Saurasthra is closer to that of Rajasthan, than the culture of classic Gujarat is.

My mom’s side is from the former and my Dad’s from the latter. My Dad’s side also believes in Kuldevi. Both sides are sthanakvasi, but Dad’s side is more Hindufied.

Rajasthani people have better fitness lifestyle than average guju people do. I am talking about urban Gujus. Rural Gujus still work hard. Urban Gujus I think have literally the worst diet and exercises habits in all of India. Classic look is skinny fat or obese. It is changing, but it is sad.

Shiva Ji
Shiva Ji
2 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

you never forget to remind us that you cluster with SI brahmins.

lurker
lurker
2 years ago

Sumit is right that Solanki is used widely by different castes in Rajasthan and Gujarat.
Purshottam Solanki, Koli (OBC)) BJP leader: https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/bjp-s-tallest-koli-leader-purshottam-solanki-refuses-to-take-mla-oath-1162803-2018-02-07

Solanki Rajputs: https://www.indianrajputs.com/history/solanki.php
(Solankis, and their branch Vagehla (called Baghel in MP/UP) were the last Hindu dynasty of Gujarat proper. They are also called Chaulukyas and many scholars link them to the great Chalukyas of Badami that ruled a vast Deccan empire for hundreds of years.

Solanki Jains: Very common in Southern and Western Rajasthan. Purported Rajput origins. I am a Jain from Southern Rajasthan, and my gotra is Solanki. A lot of my relatives are of Parmar and Chauahan gotra, and there are also some Rathod gotra relatives, but all are Marwari Jains.

On Harappa, my closest matches were Maharashtra, Karnataka and Tamil Brahmins. As per 23andMe, I am 68% Northern Indian, 23% Southern Indian Subgroup (their euphemism for Southern Indian Brahmins) from Maharashtra, 4% Southern Indian.

In Gujarat a lot of the OBCs and SCs have adopted Rajput surnames. If you were a Parmar in Himachal you would be assumed to be Rajput, but the same person would be assumed to be a SC in Gujarat, although there are bonafide Parmar Rajputs in Gujarat.

Saurav
Saurav
2 years ago
Reply to  lurker

In India’s tribal belt u have even tribals who have ‘adopted’ Rajput surnames, like Gond-Rajputs

Sumit
Sumit
2 years ago
Reply to  Saurav

There is a name for this phenomenon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajputisation

Most of the stuff I have read suggests Rajputs largely originate from northern peasant / pastoral communities who at some point post-Maurya Empire came to become the ruling group rather than the pre-Maurya Kshatriyas described in the Vedas.

Not sure to what extent genetics supports / refutes this.

girmit
girmit
2 years ago
Reply to  Sumit

@sumit
yes, there’s a community called lamani/lambani/vanjari in the deccan that speaks a kind of archaic rajasthani. Thought to have run the military caravans from the north in the 16th century onwards. They have taken on rajput identity in a big way. By some measures they are as much as 2%+ of the population of karnataka, and in many districts constitute a much larger share. Often have the surname “rajput”, “singh” or “rathore”. Ex-CM Dharam Singh of KA was from this community. Also Gopinath Munde of MH.

Brown
Brown
2 years ago
Reply to  girmit

This group is an active target for Christian conversion. This matter was discussed in the Karnataka assembly too.

Belgarion
Belgarion
2 years ago

You could add in the Marwaris/Rajasthanis 🙂
My 23andMe at least thinks I’m gujju. I think we’re probably made up of the same base population proportions.

Anon
Anon
2 years ago

To the degree West Eurasian (or WANA or MENA) ancestry exists in South Asian Muslims.

I’d imagine that the peaks in modern-day India would include:
1.) The Agra-Lucknow corridor
2.) Hyderabad
3.) Coastal Gujarat

But this is obviously more “elite” than “grass-roots”.

thewarlock
thewarlock
2 years ago
Reply to  Anon

I agree. Iirc, interestingly on Harrapa Hyderbad Muslims come out at like 47% ASI, aka Guju Vania or T Brahmin average.

Gh78
Gh78
2 years ago

Are Tamils mixed with the same AASI strain as Gujarati people? I have seen some Gujarati people that remind me of certain Tamil relatives.

I have read that the Gujarati people lack Onge admixture, does this mean that only some rare Indian castes have actual Onge admixture? Is it restricted to the tribals and adivasis alone? Is there any data on the Onge % in Indian castes?

Also, are the AASI technically SE Asian genetically, just like the Indonesians and/or the Thai otherwise? Because I know you mentioned that they are distinct from the Onge and Melanesians and Papuans, since Tibetans are the direct descendants of the Onge, and not AASI. AASI shares the same relationship with Onge as the Han Chinese and SE Asians.

thewarlock
thewarlock
2 years ago
Reply to  Gh78

The peasant castes of Gujarat share similar admixture ratios as mid castes of S India. The mid castes of S India have a range of looks, which include average Tamil person of course. Therefore, it is unsurprising some Gujaratis can look Tamil.

Gh78
Gh78
2 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

Brother, why do you bring up caste? I do not believe in caste, neither should you. We are all South Asian brothers and sisters, and we should leave behind these antiquated notions in the painful past. I am just a Tamil, casteless, like my parents raised me. I think of Gujaratis as my own cousin brothers, just with a different culture. We must unite as we have more in common than differences. Ambani looks like my uncle who is Tamil and this is more proof of the blood ties that bind us.

BTW, what do you know about Onge and AASI? We must understand this component for it makes up a significant portion of our heritage.

thewarlock
thewarlock
2 years ago
Reply to  Gh78

You are misinterpreting why I bring up caste. Castes clearly show genetic grouping trends. They are important in conversations related to genetics. I hate casteism.

Razib groups by caste up there in his PCA too. It’s because there are genetic trends. But yes all S Asians are related. All humans really. But S Asians are in fact arguably cohesive as a genetic entity because almost all groups share a genetic legacy of 3 major groups, just in different proportions.

thewarlock
thewarlock
2 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

Vast majority are some combo of steppe, aasi, and a population related to Iranic mesolithic hunter gatherers. Latter two formed IVC and makeup a majority of S Asian ancestry for all groups

And yes distances are big. S Asia doesn’t have that strong of a racial homogeneity case on an absolute PCA distance perspective. That’s why the components argument comes into play.

Regardless, it doesn’t matter. Race isn’t the only unifier. Who cares if there is a lot of divergence. It is what it is. We should still view each other as brethren because we are still in fact related. Just not as much as say White euros are to one another. Or certainly not as much as Han Chinese are to one another.

The thing is. We are a mix of some very divergent groups. Like Latin Americans actually. But equilibrium and a more thorough mixing has occurred in our case via social caste stratification and just time. End result is that none of the components exist in their “pure form” anymore.

Gh78
Gh78
2 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

Thank you for your reply brother. I agree, it seems we have a vast genetic diversity, something that is still being studied (as I understand, we dont have enough samples for autosomal DNA yet, so this might change, and we might be more related than we think later) but shows that we are more different than Europeans or Northern Africans vs East Africans, or NE Asians vs SE Asians, etc.

But as far as components go, do we share these components with anyone outside of our borders? Be it in SE Asia, Bangladesh, Central Asia, NE Asia, West Asia, etc? That would mean they we have connections to/are related to these folks in a way that they cannot deny, whether or not they are aware of them. I’d imagine for instance, that Bangladeshis, Sri Lankans, Nepalis, and some SE Asians also harbor these connections to us, along with Pakistanis, and Afganis. Since Dr. Reich was talking about the South Asian cline, it would then make sense that Pakistani and Afgani people would also be part of this cline, and be our blood brothers because they share these components with us as well. I feel like this is something that would rub them the wrong way, because in my interactions with them, they constantly deny any connections to us as if they are embarrassed of the facts. I think religion is a large part of why this is the case.

Also, dont Northern Africans and Eastern Africans share the same components with each other and with other Arabs as well? I’d imagine this sharing still isnt enough for them to see each other as a racial group, because Ethiopians and Berbers/Egyptians/Northern Africans are very different from each other racially. This would likely hold true in the South Asian scenario as well. And knowing South Asians, genetic testing wont help this argument. Which is why I think we should focus on understanding the true nature of AASI, because that is what truly defines us and unites us in a way. I’ve been shunned primarily because of the AASI component by other Asians, and it is precisely why I’d like conclusive evidence to prove that it is a fully East Eurasian component, so as to completely settle once and for all our identity as “Asian Americans” legitimately. Do you have any insights on this brother? From my reading so far, it seems to be a fully East Eurasian component, devoid of Onge/Papuan/Aboriginal and shares the same affinity with AASI as the Han Chinese. Its part of the “SE Eurasian cluster” which I’d imagine includes people like the Indonesians and Malyasians, Cambodians, Vietnamese, etc, people that Tamil Kingdoms have a long history of interactions with.

thewarlock
thewarlock
2 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

We have minority quantities of those other lineages. However, the specific combination we have is what makes S Asians what S Asians are, in terms of a unique combined population identity.

Gh78
Gh78
2 years ago
Reply to  thewarlock

I believe only AASI is what unites us brother, there is no component combination that unites us, because many hundreds of millions of South Asians lack Steppe, including Tamils/Dravidian like me, in addition to most NE Indians, Central Indians/Adivasis/Nepalis/Bangladeshis/Sri Lankans and some Paks, so I dont think it is correct or fair to state that we all need to have a certain combination of components to be South Asian brothers. (It also seems that there are two types of Steppe, and even among South Asians who have Steppe, most dont have both types.) This would exclude a large chunk of South Asians unfairly. Not to mention significant levels of North and South East Asian present in hundreds of millions of South Asians across the country not shared with hundreds of millions of others, I dont have East Asian either and my group lacks Steppe according to what I’ve read as well. So the only thing I share with all South Asians universally is AASI.

Some people say AASI has a lot of diversity as well, which would mean that even our shared AASI is not enough of a unifier, which is why I want to understand its essence, that is, is AASI purely East Eurasian, regardless of there being different strains of AASI? My reading of the research indicates this, but I just need to be double sure. This would mean that we are mixed with ancient SE Asians and are united on a larger scale with other East Eurasians. Also, I’ve read that some many South Asian Tribals have additional actual Onge and Papuan like admixture that is very significant apart from AASI — wouldn’t this make us very different from each other as well? I truly believe that AASI is the key, because as you mentioned, we are way too diverse to share anything else universally. Even my skin color (Black) is different from what most South Asians identify as “Brown”, so I am very familiar with being an outgroup. This is why only AASI is the ultimate unifier and we must understand it fully. It is like the Sub saharan admixture in North Africans, East Africans and Arabs, that is what unites them despite them being vastly different racially and culturally. They also share many components too but not universally, just like us South Asians.

thewarlock
thewarlock
2 years ago

All have at least 2 components

AASI+ iranic mesolithic HG related. Even most AASI heavy groups have this. This is the West Eurasian ancestry in those groups. They have at least 30% of this ancestry. Therefore, for the two components it is true. Most of S Asia does have steppe btw. Some groups have no steppe but even the average S Indian is 5% steppe and average North is 15% Steppe. But fine, one can say that is too little. But one cannot deny the unifying two components.

Also, it is quite easy to keep refining these ancestry groups into divergent parts. But that loses meaning after a point. The main reason they were subdivided to this point is because of how divergent the three components are. Breaking down AASI into finer subtypes may help in seeing some minor differences but it isn’t the big picture.

The big picture is that S Asians are generally a combination of three groups. A minority lack the 3rd. So if one wants to be very strict, then a combination of two groups.

In conclusion, AASI+Iranic Mesolithic HG related is key. The prior is initial migration. The latter is the primary DNA of indus valley. Even the most shifted AASI groups are at 30% for it.

Brown Pundits