It’s pretty astonishing to see that it’s the Southern fringe (and the erstwhile Punjab) that’s subsidising the rest of India. There is the Southern coastal theory that AASI moved via Sindh, Gujarat and then the Deccan-Dravidian spaces.
Furthermore what’s fascinating is that Partition, outside of South India, really was a contestation of some of the richest bits of the Subcontinent (Punjab and Bengal).
It would have been good to see the numbers for J&K but it’s fairly apparent the NorthEast aren’t going to see such a sweet deal. It’s tough being a Southerner these days (whether the US, India or even Iran). In Iran, it’s South Iran and her oil & gas fields, which subsidises the rest of the country.
These figures are for the return ratio on direct tax paid. Next steps would be to consider indirect taxes and central GST, which taken together form the common divisible pool that finally gets devoluted back to the states. And then on top of that to consider the agricultural subsidies and central welfare schemes that flow independently of this devolution. Punjab turns into a major net receiver of central funds at a nearly 2:1 ratio. Haryana remains a contributor, but at a much more modest 70-80% return. And in their case, there are a vast number of corporate HQs in Gurgaon that exist due to proximity to central government and nothing else, which inflates the sense of value that the state economy is hosting.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/nagpur/sindoor-beats-shut-border-150brides-from-pakistan-fly-to-india/amp_articleshow/133430809.cms
The common south Indian is not bothered. Dravidians take this up for political legacy reasons.
Sadly congress is joining the chorus as it has effectively become a south Indian party.
In an interesting take, the secularisation of onam has reached new heights.
Is this assimilation?
https://www.facebook.com/share/r/19WiBb55H2/
Assimilating to what?
This is the same path Halloween, Christmas and many other festivals have been following as cultures become more secular.
In to Hindu main stream. After all mahabali (mavali) is the grand son of prahallada, a Hari bhakta.
I can’t understand Malayalam,.but there a number of videos where Muslim men object to Muslims dancing in festival of other faith.
Probably the 28% population weight gives the Muslims confidence to indulge in such practices. A small population number would have forced them to clam up .
They’re almost at 30%, the golden proportion. Once that critical mass is arrived at, secularism flies out of the window to be gradually replaced by a cacophony to implement stricter religious diktats.
Democracy is used to undermine the constitution beautifully via the loopholes.
Isn’t Kerala organised in such a way to prevent a Muslim majority province so is UP?
Rather cleverly diced to give Muslims majority in a couple of districts. There is demand for more.
There are few places where muslims are heavily concentrated and there is a demand to make that into a muslim majority province.
Nothing wrong with this though.
Are you serious?
There are many muslim majority districts all over India, these have not caused any major issues, despite the poverty that is prevalent in most of these. A muslim majority mallapuram would still be part of kerala like muslim majority seemanchal is part of Bihar.
If using the word province has caused any confusion sorry, though given the example of Lakshadweep, not sure what problem a muslim majority state would cause any ways. It would be too small to matter.
I live in a Muslim majority city and I agree the Muslims have only tried to burn my house down 4 times. They will surely not try to do it for the 5th time while their politicians make speeches about taking away the police for 15 minutes.
Many of other communities politicians also make many provocative speeches.
Unlike the AIMIM whose politicians make threats of taking away the police with a gap of years or even decades. People like T raja Singh make the similar kinds of speeches with a gap of months.
I am sorry that you have been a victim of riots, both you and the numerous muslims who have also been victimised have my full sympathy and support.
I dont however think that the majority of Indias muslims have anything against anyone just the majority of all Indias people dont have any enmity against anyone.
I don’t think you understand the dynamics of riots in our country. Only a small minority of a community needs to engage in violent actions for a communal riot to begin as tit-for-tat mechanics begin to take their course. Even if majority of muslims are peaceful their violent minority will drag them all into communal riots if they are not deterred repeatedly. This logic has made itself known during every Ganesh festival where some Muslims youth will chuck rocks and try to kill Hindus in processions, unless the Police gets involved and arrests those people almost instantly it will lead to a small mob getting violent and tit-for-tat violence occurring across a large geography. Therefore, your comments are horribly tone deaf and ignorant.
Much research on riots does show that it is premeditated with planning going back weeks
It also shows that whatever you describe about the muslim community is also applicable to all communities who are liable to believe rumours and let their emotions go wild.
I can also make point out instances of people climbing on mosques and showing their dominance, of people indulging in extremey violent actions against muslims that have no place in civil society but I dont believe any community is evil or more prone to riots
Every community has suffered under riots, every community has members that have indulged in bad behavior and every community can let their fear and anxiety get the better of them. Only putting all this at one place does not help to understand or prevent these incidents in the future
Since we are on Ganesh Chaturthi,I hope along with the limited instances of muslims who may indulge in stone pelting you also see the numerous instances of muslims who help in organising and supporting Ganesh Chaturthi as well.
https://www.deccanherald.com/india/karnataka/muslims-join-ganesh-chaturthi-celebrations-in-chamarajanagar-3701786
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/hindus-muslims-come-together-celebrate-ganesh-chaturthi-karnataka-mandya-1994794-2022-08-31
//Therefore, your comments are horribly tone deaf and ignorant.//
You do know we live in a country where people who raped a pregnant muslim women were not only let out of jail but even praised by people of being honorable. Thank God the supreme court reversed that decision.
That there are people who celebrate killing and coverup with planting cauliflower seeds by calling themselves cauliflower farmers even a MLA also called himself this proudly.
That there have been numerous instances of muslims of bengali origin killed for being suspected of being foreigners in Nellie massacre.
We can keep on going on and on about how people have been victimised for their religion, but I have a feeling that all kinds of victims are not equal to you.
The muslims who throw stones at a Ganesh Chaturthi procession deserve the strictest punishment like those who climb on mosques to show dominance.
But those individuals dont undermine the numerous muslims who are peaceful and who aid in much, much more Ganesh Chaturthi celebrations than the ones that are stoned.
Calm down 0M
Did he write something that was deleted?
He is! Like I said on another post, the Indian left’s viewpoints are an internalization of the British gaze and manipulation to keep us divided. If Bengal was still united, you’d have Indian left argue its partition was totally justified along communal lines.
The only people keeping us divided are those who still after 80 years think that muslims citzens loyalty should be questioned or who think a programme where the speaker of a state participated, where no community was talked about negatively, and where values that are popular among many Indians and many religiois tradtions was affirmed( values I dont agree with btw) is a threat but programme’s where open calls of boycott are made to muslims are of no concern.
These are the real legacy of British divide and rule, making up lies based on the worst of a population and judging the whole community on the basis of that.
From my perspective much of the things asserted by others on this site are a clear sign that their worldview and reading is shaped by alignment of an ideology rather than any independent research into other communities and cultures
It is very easy to assert other communities presence is a threat, please tell me what do you think the mapilla muslims would be able to do if they get a distinct or a state of their own? From where I am standing it is the ideological priming of seeing muslims who are not ashamed as a threat that is provoking these concerns.
Political territorial slicing in the name of religion is a deep trauma in India.
Its not about the ‘size’ of Mapilla state, its about other enclaves all over India demanding the same. This is the exact divisive rhetoric that cleaved the country at Independence.
The fact that you are so enthusiastic in endorsing it……speaks quite loudly about your decision hierarchy.
The lack of logic is utterly laughable.
No one in kerala is asking for a new country. That you think that this is what is being demanded is what is truly funny.
There are already muslim majority district all over the country even in bjp ruled states. There is already a muslim majority state like lakshwadeep that had not caused any problems whatsoever.
These are practical realities you are ignoring to make a baseless point.
It would be less disappointing if you accept that muslim demands even banal and non threatening ones like having a district have no place in whatever decision hierarchy you have rather than questioning mine. I dont look at religion before deciding anything about any demand.
Sad attempt at moving goalposts. That is not at all what I said.
Also, “tHeRe is NoThInG wRoNg” in carving out religion based majority ‘state’ in India.
Do you realize what a high-class job you’re doing undermining your own credibility?
#Sad attempt at moving goalposts. That is not at all what I said.##
//Political territorial slicing in the name of religion is a deep trauma in India.
Its not about the ‘size’ of Mapilla state, its about other enclaves all over India demanding the same. This is the exact divisive rhetoric that cleaved the country at Independence.//
The above is what you had written. Conflating the demand for ones own district, a banal demand, with division of the country. At least stand by your own words which are a few comments apart.
//Also, “tHeRe is NoThInG wRoNg” in carving out religion based majority ‘state’ in India.
Do you realize what a high-class job you’re doing undermining your own credibility?//
Please tell me what issues having a muslim majority union territory like Lakshadweep has caused for India.
Then we can talk about credibility, the example of a peaceful muslim majority area is right there, for one to see no issues will come up.
Getting back to thr point do you have any logical reason thst does not depend on alarmism why mallapuram should not be a district? Or are you going to once again act that this is like equivalent to asking for a country?
Stick to the point, and discussion at hand, before talking about others credibility. What is the problem with Malappuram becoming its own district? What issues will mallapuram cause if it becomes its own state.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.economictimes.com/news/elections/assembly-elections/jammu-kashmir/only-a-bjp-government-can-give-full-statehood-to-jk-pm-modi/amp_articleshow/113354289.cms
Before we go any further is our PM losing credibility in your eyes by promising and hence supporting full statehood to Jammu and Kashmir?
For your kind information about 68% of remaining Jammu and Kashmir is muslim. For mallapuram it is 70%.
Now please answer my question, is our PM also losing credibility in your eyes.
huh?
Please stop self-flagellating yourself into a left-ist frenzy. Because this word salad isn’t making any sense.
//Political territorial slicing in the name of religion is a deep trauma in India.
Its not about the ‘size’ of Mapilla state, its about other enclaves all over India demanding the same. This is the exact divisive rhetoric that cleaved the country at Independence.//
Did you or did you not write the above? Claiming that giving the mapillas a state would encourage other enclaves? And this very banal demand is somehow reminiscent of partition?
Clearly, the issue with making muslim majority area a state, is not apparent to not only myself but the home ministry as well.
Since it seems being ok with this is insensitive or diminishes credibility, I would like to know if you hold the same opinions regarding our PM as well?
Am I making sense?
No.
Then let me make it simple to you.
Next time before you get alarmist over banal demands that a muslim may make, see if our PM has argued in favor of this demand or not like the below.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.economictimes.com/news/elections/assembly-elections/jammu-kashmir/only-a-bjp-government-can-give-full-statehood-to-jk-pm-modi/amp_articleshow/113354289.cms
You would not be forced to act as if I am speaking Latin or greek if you would have known that saying things like this essentially put me, our PM and home ministry in the same bracket.
//Political territorial slicing in the name of religion is a deep trauma in India.
Its not about the ‘size’ of Mapilla state, its about other enclaves all over India demanding the same. This is the exact divisive rhetoric that cleaved the country at Independence.
The fact that you are so enthusiastic in endorsing it……speaks quite loudly about your decision hierarchy.
The lack of logic is utterly laughable.//
One interesting feature of the Muslim community in keralam was use of malayalam,which is their mother tongue. (same in Tamilnadu, non Hyderabad Telugu states). This makes framing all Islamic concepts in local idioms. Since Malayalam is highly Sanskritic, it opens up interesting settings. Muslims in karnataka are deeply urduised. Also Marathi was used by Maratha converts , but not sure if this is still the case.
Secondly, there is a vibrant ex Muslim community in keralam. Probably only Bangladesh had such a community.
Yes Urdu is a pathway to becoming Islamic. Local
Vernacular is “Muslim.”
Urdu is one of the few languages that uses an Arabic derived script among the converts.
//Muslims in karnataka are deeply urduised. Also Marathi was used by Maratha converts , but not sure if this is still the case.//\
Beary muslim community in coastal karnatak still speak Beary. And many muslims in karnataka are increasing usage of kannada in their mosques, and many rural muslims in both karnataka and maharashtra speak kannada and marathi respectively.
Most of the muslims in the deccan are immigrants from the north, so not surprising they would be speaking urdu.
My guess is that this is an exaggerated perception. The total number of hindustani muslim migrants to the deccan was probably in the tens of thousands. The vast majority of deccani muslims descends from local populations (Kannada/Telugu/Marathi) who converted over centuries. The various hindustani registers established themselves through a combination of initial administrative seeds, elite emulation, and modern public education.
Whilst the use of surnames in North karnataka gives away the origin of Muslims, (a Bhavikatti vs an asadi) it is increasingly difficult to place them in South karnataka.
Most local conversions are from tipu period and the ‘loss’ of Kannada in these groups is astonishing, Although there were exceptions like nissar Ahmed, etc.
There are some muslim communities like dudulekhas which are from Telugu background. They are a significant number of muslims in telangana so I purposely only spoke about karnataka and maharashtra
Outside of the coastal areas, many of the communities in these areas seem to have some sort of north indian descent. Maybe they have kanadiga and Marathi mitochondrial DNA but the overt sort of Urdu cultural emulation is in no small part a resilt of their ancestors being someone from the north.
This is specifically to the deccan only. The western ghats and Konkan have had native muslim communities for centuries.
Among Muslims in Tamil Nadu; there is a fairly sharp cleft between the Urdu speakers and Tamil speakers.
Yes, I would say the same holds true for both MH and KA. Depends on how deep the Arabiazation has percolated. Aurangabad, Belagavi, Bhatkal would be more urduized in the stairway to becoming Arab.
Bhatkal, certainly arabized, and barrys were once proud of having historically arab paternal line.
Other places is probably deepening of orthodoxy.
Arab support to devbandh line has had a significant effect. In the early 90’s, there would be clashes between the devbandh trained preachers and the local population over religious practices.
General arabization is more due to workers comming back from gulf and Arabia.
Yes, anecdotally I know of Marathi Muslims who continue to use Marathi despite conversion generations ago. Despite the pressure to arabize, many continue to worship both Ganesha and Tulja Bhavani among other local deities. Ultimately the tug-of-war will be won by who wields more money and muscle power to influence the populace. Zaheer Khan is a notable Marathi Muslim.
The entire raison d’être of the Tablighis was to prevent syncreticism and reverting to the Hindu faith by the Meo Muslims.
Following the defeat of marathas in third battle of panipat, some captured marathas ended in today’s Pakistan.
They have become Muslim, but with Hindu practices in weddings etc.
https://historycafe.in/baloch-maratha/
Very interesting. Thank you for sharing this, I was unaware.
//Democracy is used to undermine the constitution beautifully via the loopholes.//
Disregarding that many muslims themselves ignore the diktat which is one reason they are made in the first place?
How does democracy get undermined if muslims dont particuapte in Onam but contine to do so in independence day and republic day? What loopholes are being exploited here? Is there a rule thst says one has to participate in a festival if they dont want to? Will hindus not celebrating easter or good Friday elsewhere undermine democracy there as well?
Muslim clerics feel they have a duty to defend orthodoxy, a majoroty of Malayali muslims disagree which is why these pronunciations are even made in the first place.
Even in west muslims with mich lesser numbers dissuade wishing for Christmas and in north of India some muslum cleric gives his opinion ( a fatwa ) on something or the other
Has less to done with confidence more to do with what they feel is their duty. Many muslims dont take these people opinions as seriously as those from outside the muslim community think they do
Since you mentioned Prahalad – In all of South Asia, there was only one temple for Prahalad. It was in Multan, Pakistan. Totally destroyed by the muslims there.
I’m seeing a wider than ever variety of people showing concern about this, independent of political loyalties. Internally, even prominent Karnataka BJP politicians are seeing this as a hard to defend embarrassment. If the delimitation backgrounding wasn’t enough, the broader critique of fiscal federalism is snowballing because high-productivity states ,by not retaining their marginal revenue, must borrow heavily from the market to build infrastructure and service past debt, even while generating the bulk of the surplus capital that underwrites the union-wide redistributive expenditure. Taking the example of Karnataka, its own weighted surplus contribution to UP & Bihar annually alone is more that 1.5x its own devoluted receipt from the centre (!!!), and accounts for more than 15% of Karnataka’s entire public debt stock. When KA, MH and TN enter a fiscal crisis, the austerity lecture and pretext for encroached sovereignty with have a convenient episode of amnesia about all of this.
1. What is the solution?
2. All states have some magnets for income generation. Industries in Bangalore, Mumbai in Maharashtra etc.
3. Do people living in these areas react similarly to flow of revenue to say kalyana karnataka and marathawada, for example? Infact there is resentment from deprived regions if funds are allocated to these magnets. Bangaluru gets lots of flack.
4. What happens if “north Indians ” demand protection money from southern states?
5. The elephant in the room is that, there is no guarantee that the states will spend the surplus wisely. Jharkhand is an example.
My view is that Bangalore’s fiscal relationship with Kalyan Karnataka and Karnataka’s transfers to UP/Bihar are not equivalent. A state is an organic socioeconomic compact. Moreover, the city’s own growth was in no small part made possible by the collective resources, labor, and sovereign guarantees of composite Karnataka. Principally, by the old Mysore region, and in another comment I’ve shared my understanding that the region’s prosperity is rooted in historical processes that go back centuries. I think the hinterland Karnataka view that funds are over-allocated to Bangalore are somewhat overstated. Its well-understood that the wealth generated in the city flows directly back to north KA towns like Dharwad and Bijapur via remittances. Consider this: a single year’s worth of KA’s cross-subsidy to UP and Bihar (~70,000 crore) is roughly double the entire corpus of funds allocated to Kalyan Karnataka for its regional development in the previous 25 years of this century. Even a small rebalancing of this would moot the mentioned intra-state squabbles or anxiety over implementing the most basic social welfare schemes.
These transfers to UP/ Bihar represent an open ended fiscal drain without circular economic feedback or shared political governance. Administrative and political tiers exist specifically because governance requires distinct boundaries. We can’t conflate the state, which is the primary constitutional unit of indian federalism with ever-smaller territorial subsets. This is the same rhetorical playbook used with regard to hindi imposition, wherein, reductio ad absurdum, Kannada hegemony over Tulu is invoked.
As far as the solution, I’d personally like the discourse to continue broadening before getting over-prescriptive. That said, rebalancing is necessary, the fiscal flows we are seeing now, to relate this to another thread, resemble an extractive one between imperial metropole and colonies.
I agree the Old Mysore region’s prosperity is historically rooted in KRS + other irrigation projects and nothing to do with mooching off Kalyana region. While I agree that some relook needs to happen at fiscal transfers some questions worth considering —
How are states (both BJP and congress ruled) are using their existing funds? States are squandering money on Ladli Behena schemes to freebies like free power, free bus rides etc.How are people using the freebies? If you ask google ai to chart welfare spending of states against their excise revenue you will see them almost balance each other across all states. Point is that people are using savings from increased welfare to spend on alcohol and other non productive purposes. Sure some of it is going towards expensive private English medium school education. With AI around the corner I am not sure this is going to pan out as well. This does not downstream impact on personal health from increased consumption of alcohol/gutkha/packaged+processed foods.
I agree that rebalancing is necessary but worth asking the following questions —
My previous comment might have ended up in spam due to repeated edits.
I share your concern about this. Historically, different regions of India have had substance abuse issues that are idiosyncratic. Alcohol abuse is salient among the south indian labor classes and opioids seem more prevalent in the north. I wonder if certain types of economic growth are better at containing the nihilism and angst that breed on alienation from the formal economy.
The jury is still out on Karnataka’s big 5 guarantee schemes, whether they are moving the composite social welfare needle sufficiently, or if they might be counter productive. The discourse I’ve been exposed to frames them as trade-offs to compressed capex budgets for infrastructure/industrial corridor development that could have driven total factor productivity much more sensibly ,and indirectly benefited the same target demographic. Would be curious about yours and others take on that. But echoing my previous remarks, the total outlay for these guarantees is less that half the cross-subsidies to northern states from KA. Nominal state GDP is being handicapped by 3-4% annual growth conservatively, not even taking into consideration the debt trap.
At the peak of the exploitative Brtish Raj, the economic crimes against India are based around extracting 4-5% GDP per annum as a tribute. The current “tribute” that Karnataka and MH pay is double that. There is no large polity in the world, not the USA nor the EU where, smaller population units are extracted to this degree to subsidize more populous, more youthful core states at return ratios of 20-30x, as is the case of Karntaka/MH to UP/Bihar. Even in the USA, a much larger California only has a tax cross-subsidy ratio of 1.4x to a state like Kentucky or Alabama, and almost every country in the world deliberately caps floor and ceiling.
Another concerning fact would be that in many states the expenditure on gutka is higher than the expenditure on education. Dr. Shamika Ravi’s paper on this shows a concerning trend of rising tobacco usage in many communities. She highlights Meghalaya as a concerning state especially in this case.
https://eacpm.gov.in/wp-content/uploads/2026/02/Rising-Tobacco-Consumption-Working-Paper-1.pdf
There’s a similar argument to be made about metropolitan centres doing the same in large states. The poorer parts of even rich states like KA, MH are not much better off than UP/Bihar but often command significant political power and are an investment sink to the detriment of urban centres like Bombay, Bangalore, NOIDA or Gurgaon that generate significant tax revenue for each of their respective states. Perhaps explains the abject dire state our large cities are in.
Lee Kuan Yew pointed this out decades ago, about the impossibility of making Bombay an improved city.
I wouldn’t be in favor of applying that logic recursively to ever smaller territories for a few of the reasons i mentioned earlier, and in some ways for the additional reason that I would want Karnataka to support development in Bihar before routing funds to Sudan. Karnataka, TN (and even unified AP) have similar dynamics where Bangalore/Chennai are not the highest HDI regions of their state btw, particularly if you deflate the income parameter skew with cost of living. The coastal/malnad regions of KA are possibly the most holistically developed subregion of India and deep south/kongunad regions of TN are likewise superior to Chennai. What is anomalous about KA is that its northeast quadrant is the most backward region in south india, but because KA is not a target state for development interventions , the GOI directs global agency funds away from it. So if an NGO wants to raise funds for a livelihood enhancing social enterprise in Raichur, KA, in some cases they are told to focus on Orissa or MP to be eligible.
Don’t know precisely what this data is and how sensible inferences can be drawn from this. For example, Mumbai’s GDP is more than that of most south Asian states and hence I assume the city by itself will pay far more taxes than any of these states.
Also, Kerala is funding nobody. It is a dead basket case that doesn’t produce anything. No wonder they love the GDP system because it supports the consumer states rather than those who actually produce stuff.