Open Thread – 9/26/2020 – Brown Pundits

I have mixed feelings about casting Dev Patel as Gawain. Though my feelings are not strong, they are similar to my feelings about casting white actors as non-Europeans in the past: you get over it, but it takes away from verisimilitude.

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193 thoughts on “Open Thread – 9/26/2020 – Brown Pundits”

  1. I watched Cursed on Netlix the other day. Some folks didn’t like it, but i liked the alternative storyline they showed.

  2. Of the other important rules of pronunciation, it is worth noting that the sounds, marked as ‘C’ and ‘J’ in the transcription, are usually pronounced as is customary in the West (for e.g. English-speaking), as ‘Ч’ (=Č) and ‘Џ’ (=Dž) (as in names – CHarles and John):

    Pañcatantra – Pančatantra, mahārāja – maharaja,

    but this pronunciation is incorrect. These letters, as ancient Indian palatals, completely correspond to the Serbian ‘Ћ’ and ‘Ђ’ (in Latin – Ć and Đ), so it is more correct to say (in phonetic Cyrillic) as:

    ‘Пањћатантра’ and ‘махарађа’.

    Letter ‘Ђ’ exists ONLY in Serbian language.

    Not in Iranian (which language is this? Aryan?), no German, no Lithuanian, not Islandic, not Tungusian, not even in Russian.

    Both previous words pronunciations are as in the name of:

    Ђ – О – К – О – В – И – Ћ

  3. The Sclaveni (in Latin) or Sklabenoi (various forms in Greek, see below) were early Slavic tribes that raided, invaded and settled the Balkans in the Early Middle Ages and eventually became known as the ethnogenesis of the South Slavs. They were mentioned by early Byzantine chroniclers as barbarians having appeared at the Byzantine borders along with the Antes (East Slavs), another Slavic group. The Sclaveni were differentiated from the Antes and Wends (West Slavs); however, they were described as kin. Eventually, most South Slavic tribes accepted Byzantine suzerainty, and came under Byzantine cultural influence.

      1. But when Indian hindu trads also say the same thing, then y would he think he is wrong

        Tweet thread by our very own Omar Bhai on it

        The anchors clapping is the real point here.. every educated person has been taught this crap, and many of them still believe it… (Those w English medium education also believe Pakistan is LESS intolerant than India, but that is a smaller group, able to read western media 😉 )

        Most of them believe it.. It is what they want to see of course, but if western intellectuals/journalists/academics say the same, then why wouldn’t reasonable people believe it? I would even guess that most did not have such a clear opinion before it came via western sources

  4. Dev Patel seems to have developed a career playing protagonists of classic white British literature with David Copperfield and Gawain! He’s probably too old for Harry Potter though! Will we see some white guy in the inevitable Ramayana and Mahabharata epics that will be made to balance things out? I doubt it. ? Razib, if someone made a biopic of your life who would play you?

  5. Another language exercise:

    Happy New Year!
    Frohes neues Jahr!

    What is the meaning/origin of English YEAR and German JAHR?

    Native speakers, welcome! Slow learners again will not be left out. Lunatics and stalkers, too. BP promotes inclusiveness.

    1. The response on the previous question was overwhelming but responses are still stacked in postal votes. Hopefully, they will be delivered before US elections before the expected congestion in postal services.

      It seems that I also need to reintroduce incentives, as we did in the case of providing ONE evidence for so-called Slavic migration to Balkan. This gig is indefinitely open only for oit and with a double financial reward.

      For the above question (Year, Jahr), the incentive is again a bottle of red, worldwide delivered. Razib promised me that he would continue to publish even the loudest sounding moronic comments as he did so far.

      To provide another chance for people unfamiliar with previous question (I think that none of us thinks that he/she is an expert in his/her mother tongue), there is another question:

      What was the origin of the English word CAT?

      There are no limitations whatsoever, multiple answers can be sent, and it is possible that one win both bottles.


    The old political argument against the reformed, new economy is formidable. The pain of reform comes immediately and affects many more. The gains come much later and will still leave far too many unhappy. Not necessarily because they are worse off, but they see some others doing much better: The familiar rich-getting-richer syndrome when the poor, even if they are doing better than before, feel even poorer in comparison

    Bill Clinton, when he visited India in 2006 after the UPA came to power, made this point brilliantly in his short speech at the Rashtrapati Bhavan banquet. We are all surprised, he said, that Vajpayee’s government lost despite taking India’s growth rate to seven per cent. How can you lose when your growth rate is that high? Because, he said, those that benefit most visibly are much fewer than those that feel left out in comparison. This is hard politics.

    This was also the apparent logic for the Left Front and Lalu Yadav not letting modernisation and growth come to the neighbouring states they respectively ruled for decades. Let them rot in their caste and ideological bunkers. The third problem with reform-generated growth is, it necessarily increases inequality. As the old logic goes, a rising tide lifts all boats, but it lifts the yachts first. Apply that to Bihar — a state at the lowest end of the Indian economy’s value chain, an exporter of cheap labour to the fast-growing states.

  7. Dev Patel looks Welsh anyway. If he were called Dafydd Perry nobody would guess he wasn’t Welsh.
    In fact, give most North Indian’s a European name and nobody would know they weren’t.

    1. In fact, give most North Indians’ a European name and nobody would know they weren’t.

      Maybe in Southern Europe, definitely not where I live. And even then I would be very skeptical.

      1. Most Jatts can easily blend into Southern Europe without being noticed as different race until of course people notice The customs and all.

        1. don’t know about most. but this trend was made known to me when i met an italian american woman of sicilian background with olive skin who asked what part of india i was from, and told me in some urban areas punjabi cab drivers (sikhs in turbans) would try punjab with her.

          1. @Razib

            Italy is a stretch for most NW South Asians to pass in, with the exception of certain places in Italy like Calabria, or Sicily. I remember watching the Godfather Trilogy as a high schooler, and though I obviously saw some people who look like NW South Asians, owing to the Southern Italian context in which the movies are set (Johnny Cazale, Lenny Montana, Al Lettieri, Richard Castellano, Andy Garcia etc) most others had a rather distinct appearance and wouldn’t pass in South Asia.

            Another good example of an Italian and a NW South Asian overlapping to the point of essentially being a doppelganger is Rahul Dev and Enrico Loverso. Rahul is just more sharper featured/robust and has a thinner lip. But they could easily be biological brothers. Andrea Bocelli could be part of the same family as well, along with his sons. All part of the minority of Italians that can pass as NW South Asians with flying colors.

            Italy has been invaded by way too many people with different forms of West Eurasian ancestry, people that never made their way to the Near East and West Asia in most cases, so NW South Asians obviously look different from most Italians. The same goes for Greece — although I’ve seen a greater percentage of Greeks that have the Near Eastern/West Asian look that NW South Asians have, perhaps owing to Turkish influence, and so more Greeks have a shared appearance with Jatts/Rors etc, though it is still not the majority. Having said that, as far as Europe is concerned, it is actually easiest for NW South Asians to pass in Eastern Europe among certain Slavic ethnic groups owing to shared Iranic and Steppe ancestry. I’ve seen many people from Bulgaria, Romania and the surrounding countries that pass as Jatts quite easily. And they weren’t Roma or Romani either, but “pure” Eastern Europeans that looked the part as well.

            Based on my experiences, people from Iran/Iraq/Azerbaijan/Georgia/Turkey/Chechnya/Armenia/Parts of Eastern Europe have the greatest overlap with NW South Asians. Overlap with Southern Europeans is in the minority. Overlap with Levantines however, is much more significant. I also occasionally see certain Gulf and Khaleeji Arabs that pass as NW South Asian, perhaps owing to the fact that they often take brides from the aforementioned West Asian countries. The rest of Europe is quite distinct and could never pass in South Asia, with the exception of certain groups that can pass as Pamiri or Yaghnobi Tajiks. No surprise that phenotypes overlap the most in those countries in West Asia and Europe where R1a and certain forms of shared ancestry predominate.

            I’m personally taken as a Georgian by Eastern Euros and Slavs; the other day a bartender at my fav watering hole, who is from EE, asked me if I was from Georgia. We had a long conversation, and funnily enough, she knew about Salman/Aamir/Shahrukh Khan and other Bwood stars, so its obvious she didnt associate me with them. When I told her about my NW South Asian origins, she was quite surprised at first, but later understood when I expounded upon my ancestral heritage. She herself had a face that couldn’t pass in South Asia, however. Small world.

    2. There are many Dev Patels walking on the streets in Cardiff. I doubt they can emulate a Dafydd Perry or a Carwin Vaughan.

    3. I am a north Indian I can look like Some one from West “Indies” when i used to play Football.( Soccer).

      1. again they are confused here man. Look at Nikki Haley childhood pics in her class. She looks clearly diff from white classmates and is brown enough for sure. Her makeup,clothing style make a big diff as she aged as well and yes she is among the most West shifted looking Indians.

    4. No lol. Indians look pretty much like what they are. I’ve lived in major diaspora centers of all kinds, including the UK.

  8. (1/2) – I am hearing that Pundits were thrilled with our uncovering the real identity of the person known under his nickname – Plato. He was actually a son of ARISTO – ARISTOCLE. His name was coined from the name of his father ARISTO and a Serbian word CLE (knee – with a meaning: descendant i.e. son). We hope that some undercover pundits will also step forward and disclose their identities, too, even if they sent only lunatic, moronic sounding comments, so far.

    As a bonus there another two persons (in addition to Pericle(s) and Sophocle(s)). They are HeraCLE(s) and much later, a Serbian Roman Emperor – DioCLEtian (descendant of divine giant – DIV). Also, in Rashan i.e. Rascian i.e. Etrurian language, the words KLE, KLEVA, KLEN mean KNEE, CRADLE, OFFSPRING, the event of birth.

    Well, we will analyse the book – Cratylus, where Plato said that Greeks many words took from indigenous people. Plato also state that many words subsequently changed over the time.

    Why not start with a word ‘BARBARIANS’ which was mentioned by one of pundits in his ‘sounding’ comment. When Greeks talk about ‘barbarians’ they think Tribals, Thracians (‘the biggest nation in the world after Hindus’ – Herodotus).

    ‘Barbars’ or ‘barbarians’ are people who live without visible social differences in some kind of equality. This is something characteristic for every old civilisation of Balkan like numerous Illyrian tribes especially Dalmats but, this story goes back to Vinca. Because Vincan Civilisation was mostly characterized by the lack of visible social differences in spite of the fact that Vinca was a wealthy society and private ownership was honoured. Through the entire second half of Neolith we have surplus in valuables, private ownership and trade but no social diversification. Social diversification has started with an idea to live off someone else’s work and that idea was imposed with wars. The same trait we find among Serbs and Slavs which implies to the continuity of population.

    In spite of private ownership there are no bigger differences in property because inhabitants live in communities: tribal, generic or familiar communities, characteristic for most of the indigenous Illyrian tribes in Balkan.

    1. Vincans aka Anatolians have the following Y-DNA halogroups:
      G2a2a1, G2a2a1a, G2a2a1a2a, G2a2a1a, G2a2b2a1a, H2

  9. (2/2) To this day, the word ‘barabar’ is being used – it has several supplementary meanings. Foremost, it stands for people that have equal possessions. Also, ‘barabar’ means ‘side by side’ and ’together’. However, the first, but not only word we will use to explain the word ‘barbar’ and ‘barabar’ is a Serbian adverb ‘BAR’ (at least).

    Simply speaking, ‘barbarians’ refer to people that have BAREM MALO (at least something). Among them there are no slaves, just like among Serbs, Slavs and most Illyrian tribes. As well as Vincans – none of them had slaves. The mere word RAB (slave) in Serbian language was often used in positive context as RAB BOZIJI (servant of God) or SORAB (working companion) someone who makes an effort out of love for God or loved ones.

    The true meaning and origin of the word BAR we can further explain with the English word BARE or BARELY and its archaic word BEAR which is replaced with WEAR which means carry, dress-up… Danish and Norwegian BAR has the same meaning as in Serbian language. …

    This etymology additionally explains earlier mentioned Old Greek language expert, Konstantin Economou in his Dictionaries (1828) through the word BREME (burden).

    ‘Burden’ is something that a man is able to put on himself. ‘Bar-bar’ has so much he is able to put on himself, so much he is able to carry. In fact, so much as he needs! Complete affirmation of this claim we find in Sanskrit where the word BHARABHARIN means exactly the same: ‘the one carries the burden’. Neither a slave, neither a rich man, but someone who has ‘at least a burden’ (BAREM BREME) ‘just enough he needs and as much he can carry’.

    In deeper revelation of this etymology, K. Economou points on Serbian linguistic foundation found in such words: SABOR (convocation), SABIRAM, SABIRANJE (I add, addition).

      1. Thanks. The word ‘baraba’ in modern Serbian also means vagabond and an unsophisticated, rough man ready for fight and even to terrorize peaceful people.
        In the above context the meaning is almost – communist 🙂 (with private ownership!).

    1. From wiki:
      The Byzantines broadly grouped the numerous Slav tribes living in proximity with the Eastern Roman Empire into two groups: the Sklavenoi and the Antes.[1] The Sclaveni were called as such by Procopius, and as Sclavi by Jordanes and Pseudo-Maurice (Greek: Σκλαβηνοί (Sklabēnoi), Σκλαυηνοί (Sklauēnoi), or Σκλάβινοι (Sklabinoi); Latin: Sclaueni, Sclavi, Sclauini, or Sthlaueni – Sklaveni). The derived Greek term Sklavinia(i) (Σκλαβινίαι; Latin: Sclaviniae) was used for Slav tribes in Byzantine Macedonia and the Peloponnese; these Slavic territories were initially outside of Byzantine control.[2] By 800, however, the term also referred specifically to Slavic mobile military colonists who settled as allies within the territories of the Byzantine Empire. Slavic military settlements appeared in the Peloponnese, Asia Minor, and Italy.

    1. AJT is an Indian from the 1980s. For him to write this is stupid. Obviously to please his organisation.

    1. lots of movies based on greek myths. e.g., jason at the argonauts, clash of titans, etc. in fact, it is often easier to base it on a pagan story, because if it uses jewish/xtian elements ppl have to be much more careful not to offend

      1. I have seen some of Clash of titans.
        Are the movies set in pre Christian Era have some biases of Abrahamic faiths? like heavy ritual sacrifice, idol workship, barbarianism cause there are very few people who believe in pagan myths.

        Or just Hinduism just more Calm and Peaceful ( input from both Jainism and Buddhism) than other pagan societies. For ex ritual sacrifices are gone only part of Rural areas of Bihar, Tamil Nadu etc.

  10. Apthik in the future how bout just posting a map with a kringed distribution with a peak where you are phenotyically more similar? way more compact than words

    your analysis of physiognamy in film is not surprising

    1. @Razib

      Excellent idea. It takes way too much verbiage otherwise. I just wanted to give you a good picture of the extent and nature of overlap that exists, with respect to appearance and race. BTW, I’m assuming you’ve seen the Godfather trilogy and read the book by Puzo? Great series of films, still among my favorites to this day. Phenotype overlap with NW South Asians only makes them more relatable, I’d say 😉

      1. I read the article, I know for this guy (I think he is a Kashmiri not Bengali). He is very smart, I may send him an email, only deficiency is that he first established an (ideological) conclusion and now he is searching for evidence. It is very interesting the connection he found btw our br1ather’s science and Hindu philosophy. I did not know for this article, but I also wrote a year or so ago here about his theory of the ether which was rejected by modern science as ancient/obsolete and in conflict with Einstein’s theory of relativity. Considering that this theory was mathematically developed by his Ser1abian wife, there is a small dilemma, but I, however, give a preference to our br1ather.

    1. Real story time

      About 15 years ago someone in my immediate family was tasked with delivering a bribe(from his employer) of Rs 20 Lakhs to UP Pollution Control Board for not putting an Effluent Treatment Plant (ETP) and Chimney Electrostatic Precipitator in a factory. I actually got to hold the big bundle of cash in my own hands, I had never seen so much money until then.

      The rules are the following: you have to pay a bribe no matter what and then you can or cannot put up an ETP, the pollution control board doesn’t care.

      Ugra will say I am swimming in inferiority complex but the naked truth is that Indians are a relatively unethical, crass and self-centered people. The twist is that if the village guy in the report had the chance he too would give cancer to his fellow men for money. When it gets down to basics i.e. money and sex real exploitative ugliness of most Indians is laid bare.

      Real Story 2

      In India Socialism sucks left and right, it is a stupid elite driven project with such massive inefficiencies, waste and egomania. Spent most my childhood in a ‘socialist’ factory falling apart, old-machinery, rampant bribery, mal-practices, theft and all sorts of fraud. I will take a white colonialist over socialism any day.

      1. The ladder of industrial development is the same for all countries and regions – ignorance, societal cognition, laws, paper enforcement, societal vigilance, true enforcement, societal reassessment, costs of safety exceed profitability and de-industrialisation.

        Europe has climbed all the rungs. China may be in 5th stage. India has different records for different regions. UP is at the bottom. The chemical/oil industrial powerhouse of India, Gujarat, is at the 6th stage.

        Corruption is incidental. There is no way to run a modern industry without externalities

    2. The structural root cause here is the extreme centralization of power in India.

      A system where people is localized would not see such abuses. This is one of America’s greatest strengths.

  11. From the last OT (update):

    “BUDE(M) in English presents the future and because of this, from the Greek FUTO we have the name – FUTURE.”

     BUDE(M) (inf. BITI) is ancient and modern Serbian verb (=TO BE) which Greeks took to be a part of their so-called Old (‘Ancient’) Greek Language.

    Because they did not have adequate voices, they changed this to their FUTO (Φυτω) by changing B, which they did not have, to F. From this FUTO we have in English the name for FUTURE.

    It is interesting the latest word meaning. By inserting the ‘L’ i.e. (λ) in the middle of the word we get the meaning of – moron (i.e. in Old Greek L. – μορον).

  12. URGENT!!!!

    Razib, when you wake up in the morning, DON’T DRINK water and don’t wash your face. All residents of Texas have been warned not to drink tap water because it contains the dangerous microbe ‘Naegleria fowleri’ which infects the brain.

    I suggest – drink wine or non-Texas beer!

    Good luck!

    1. Are ghoongat and prudah are the same thing ?

      I don’t know the technical definition.

      But I thought ghoongat was just a style of wearing a sari to cover the head ? I think of it like a turban for men.

      Where as prudah is gender segregation within the household.

      In any event the Ghoongat / Prudah % seem off to me.

  13. Indians Immigrating To Canada At An Astonishing Rate

    The number of Indians who became permanent residents in Canada increased from 39,340 in 2016 to 80,685 in 2019, an increase of more than 105%,

    What are the reasons for this stunning increase in immigration from India to Canada? Canada is benefiting from a diversion of young Indian tech workers from U.S. destinations, largely because of the challenges of obtaining and renewing H-1B visas.

    The rise in Indian students coming to Canadian universities is likely a significant reason that Indian immigration has surged. The number of Indian international students studying at Canadian universities rose from 76,075 in 2016 to 172,625 in 2018, an increase of 127%

    In contrast, at U.S. universities, the number of international students from India enrolled in graduate-level programs in computer science and engineering fell by 21%

    I looked up the tuition fees for Uni of Toronto and it costs ~44K USD (59K CAD) per academic year. That doesn’t include housing and food. Even for me, that would be tough as hell to pay, even if I borrow money and got help from my family, and I live in a country whose average wage is higher by a non-trivial margin than Canada’s. Scholarships can only go so far given these high costs, and most internationals don’t get that much.

    I can’t imagine what kind of people from India are able to emigrate given these exorbitant costs. It must not only be the top 1% but the top 0.1%.

    1. ” It must not only be the top 1% but the top 0.1%.”
      You are so far off from the truth here that I am guessing you have not been around Indian students immigrating to the US/Canada. I would say top 1% is very fair, for more determined people maybe coming from even top 5% works out fine.

      Some thoughts:

      1) This is the secret sauce Indians are using:
      Depending on school prodigy offers up-to $300,000 in student loans without collateral. One of my not so well to do but talented friend recently took out $120K for an MBA in US.

      2) Indians have immense appetite for education perhaps the greatest in the world. You should see how mad the rush for opportunities (something like 10 million applicants for 1k manual jobs in Railways) is in India and how unthinkingly people spend money on cram-schools in Kota and then no-name engineering schools.

      3) Indian parents live their dreams through their children many times it means going all-in, i.e. taking out loan against home or spending their entire savings. Now salaries have reached about $1500 a month for quite a few jobs, also Indian real estate market might actually perform better than Apple stock so a lot of people have made money enough to fund a masters degree.

    2. About 40 million people in India (or about 5 million families) have a per capita income equal to Switzerland (70 lac/year). The education immigrants are coming out of this segment.

      By the centennial of Indian independence, I expect the North American continent to host 10 million people of Indian origin.

    1. Looking at the list, seems like Maratha history will undergo the same saffronization ( for lack of a better word) which Rajput history went. Post Pawar i dont see how even Shiv Sena etc can retain Maratha history (and vote) . Perhaps that’s the fate of all Hindu history, to be subsumed by Hindutva. Trads be worried 😛

  14. (1/2) RE: Lost in translation (Word Exclusive)

    I got warning from BP admin collegium (minus Xerxie) that my questions are too difficult, they may alienate regular BP consumers and even push slow learners deeper into their lunacy. Well, I accepted this objection and I’ll help to the future respondents regarding above questions (re Year, Jahr, Cat). Y&J words originated from Serbian calendar and mythology.

    Did I say that the word ‘calendar’ itself is a Serbian (sorry, not Latin) and it is the foundation of European civilisation, which originated in the Neolith and unlike younger calendars, was based on agriculture? There are amazing things which were confirmed by modern electromagnetic measuring. It would require a whole book and Rose would be thrilled with this. We will revisit this topic after some responds, contesting a bottle of red.

    However, here we will present one World Exclusive amazing discovery brought to you by BP. In previously mentioned Old Greek Dictionary from Konstantin Economou (1828) there is Our Father in Old Greek language. We can see that Old Greeks used a word ATAS from Serbian language for ‘father’. This word ATAS was not preserved in modern Greek. It has been preserved only as an archaism from ancient Greek with a different meaning. The ‘father’ is denoted by the form ‘patera’ or later as ‘father’ in English.

    This is an example of how young languages like Greek and Latin got lost in translation.

    KE shows us the genesis of the word ‘patera’ which later got softened as ‘father’ in English. It originates from the word BATA.

    All Illyrian and Dalmatian leaders were called BATA. Somewhat later, the word BAYA develops from there. Both of these words come from the words BROTHER.

    BATA (patas) lat. Pater, Padre, pere, Vater, father, fader, pader, peer, peter, piter… (in various languages)

    Why were the leaders of the old Serbs, who were called Illyrians, called BATA?

    Because he was the leader of the army, the one who defends us and takes care of us. And that is the meaning of the word brother. BATA means – one who leads the army, rules and governs.

    Let’s go back to the Greek-Latin form ‘pater’. They got lost in translation and they call their father – a brother!!!

  15. (2/2) How and why did this happen?

    Because there was a sea of natives, who had no state but lived a free tribal life. A small number of newcomers appear, their number was small, they accepted the language, words and names of the natives, adapting them to their vocal apparatus.

    Thus, they find the word BATA as a designation for the man who governs the tribe.

    The form of ‘pata’ found in Sanskrit has separated from the Serbian name BATA by sound nuance before moving to India. In Sanskrit, the word ‘pata’ means ‘rule’, ‘management’. Since BATA – ‘patas’ is the one who governs, the Latins call this word father. The reason is because in old times, the father should be the manager who ruled the family. The Greeks took the form of Father as ATAS. This word was quickly lost from the Greek language. It was in ancient Greek, then it was an archaism to be completely lost at the end.

    The Greeks mechanically took words from the natives, while the Serbs developed many new words from this word.

    BRAT brani brine (defends, care)
    BATA – BATINE – BATTLE (eng)
    BAYA beats BOY. BAYA is the one who is major in BOY.

    Serbian language is the perfect guardian of the proto-language of Europe. In English there is a word BOY which is a derivative of the word BAYA. The main one in the fight had to be a young man, a guy, who is in the English – BOY (=battle, in Serbian).

    Let’s get back to this fascinating finding one more time. There are a wide array of words derived from BATA and BAYA in the Serbian language.

    There are only few preserved Illyrian words (MT: ha-ha-ha), officially recorded in the International Dictionary of Older Languages:

    One of the preserved glosses is:
    bra’ (brother);………… now, there is a form BRO, too.

    Why was that word preserved only in the dictionary of Serbs? Because, they are the descendants of the people who created that language and did not accept it by coming to a foreign environment. The word OTAC is composed of OT – AC, a typical suffix that builds masculine words like – lovac, borac, primorac (i.e. hunter, fighter, seafarer).

    OT is an older example of OD – who we are from, what we are from, where we are from. In Russian they still have this form. AC originated from AZ, the first letter in alphabet and means “I”. The meaning of Serbian word FATHER is not a ‘protector’ as it is in Greek and Latin, but it means – ‘from whom we come from’.

    BATA is now used in modern Serbian as the name for ‘little brother’ as a pair for SEKA (‘little sister’) and sometimes as a personal name.

    BAYA is also a modern name for a ‘top, #1 street smart’ guy (I imagine him as a half-way between the warlock and Yagguistan).

    In conclusion, the meaning of the English word FATHER (and pater, padre, etc) is actually – BROTHER!!!!

    It is so funny to me when I imagine one little girl asking her father:
    “Daddy, daddy, are you my little brother????”

    1. Why the analysis is wrong:
      1) Slavic has less PIE words than Baltic.
      2) Does not consider isoglosses. Greek is a Centum language.
      3) Iranian shares all the isoglosses of Sanskrit — plus one more — with Slavic. How is this possible if Sanskrit left? Not that it matters for a totally misinformed person.
      4) Does not explain how German — despite being a centum language — shares an isogloss with Slavic.
      5) The stage of PIE from which borrowing happened — and not the personal whim of an extremely motivated person — is considered to decide the order of language formation.

      Reasoning is, therefore, impossible for “mythological” history making reasons.

    1. Might be some other metric;
      Bhutan is what I would call Idyllic and not in a good sense. Compared to Indian Hill regions, it is exceptionally more disciplined but not as “ALIVE” or dynamic a place.
      It all seems hunky-dory from the outside – being a small country with India helping out tremendously and comparatively low population, tourism, and timber its doing well economically. But culturally it feels very weird. There are even rules on preventing Bhutanese wearing western clothing in some professions and so on – someting call Driglam namzha. I haven’t been able to put a finger on it – but something breaks down in the Happiest Place in the world narrative. There is a Know-It-All State vibe.
      For one thing, Nepalese are treated like Shit. There was also lot of ethnic cleansing at some point.

    2. True. I think graduation criterion is not strict for LDCs. Maldives, though, graduated in 2011. I have also read reports of Nepalis thrown out of Bhutan. One big reason, as I understood, was religion: Hindus were driven out so that Bhutan could become a homogeneous state — convenient for monarchy to rule. Furthermore, there was historic animosity between Nepalis and Bhutanis.

      However, Bhutan needs to move away from LDC status; it would be better for them.

  16. RIP SP Balasubramaniam! He did his job in further sweetening Telugu. Forever grateful for his legacy.

    1. After being bullied by ED and the tax authorities. Not a moment too soon. These organisations pose as human rights defenders but are selectively silent on Western-sponsored atrocities. The most notable is the utter silence on Venezuela, even as brutal US sanctions forced that country into near-famine.

      Amnestry, Human Rights Watch and other “human rights organisations” are essentially the long arm of the US Deep State, that put out Deebly Goncerning reports that the US media later picks up and uses to bludgeon countries into submission. A narrative is set.
      These same organisations participated in the ‘Assad gasses his own people’ hoax, which has now been proven (by the Grayzone and other publications) to be a total fabrication. Yet no correction is issued. That’s a feature, not a bug.

      India should remember that the West only views it through the narrow lens of self-interest. India is only useful as a puppet to play off against China. The US Deep State wants Pappu to rule, because he is weak, liberal and easily manipulated. He spends more time in London than in India.

  17. (1/2) We are continuing our mission. It is great to see a bunch of pundits, thirsty of knowledge, ready to be on the forefront of world history knowledge and sick of notorious falsifications. We are uncovering hidden truths which are becoming new building blocks of SA and world history, too. Frustrated and slow learners will not stop us to accomplish this mission. The task is enormous, and we simply don’t now from which side to start the cleaning of Augie’s barns of world history.

    What is the context?

    Slowly but surely, it is becoming increasingly known that Djerdap (Iron Gates) was the cradle of European civilization, what has been scientifically confirmed by the Max Plan I Institute and 117 researchers. Many pundits are aware that the First industrial revolution happened 7000 years ago in Vinca, including the first smelting of copper at a temperature of 1100 C.

    It is known that the first settlers of Scandinavia were Dinars of the I2A haplotype type. The first settlers of the British Isles were also I2A.

    Sanskrit is about 3500 years old. Vedic India is 6,000 years younger than Lepenski Vir and 3,500 years younger than Vinca. Even the settlement of the British Isles is 2000 years older than the Vedic civilizations. Sanskrit is the youngest version of the European language that originated in the Danube region.

    Currently, we are focussing on language. Our assertion is that the Serbian language is the closest to the source language. This also impacts on SA and other world languages.

    How can we see that a language is native? From a minimum of consonants comes a whole range of words.

    Such is the case with the word RT.

    RT – EA(RT)H (eng)…E(RD) (germ)…P(RT)HVI (hindi)
    RT – Metathesis of consonants – RT – TR > TERRA, TIERRA, TERRE… TeRRiTory

    From RT (=hard ground) – they branch into hundreds of words – vrt, hrid, orati, prtina, tvrdo, ratnik, rtanj, radnik, trpati, krtica, zgrtati ogrtati, rit, zatrti, prtiti, brdo, rat, ratar, rudnik, otrti, treti, rati, zagrtati, zatrpati (= garden, cliff, plow, hard, warrior, worker, mole, cloak, crush, hill, war, farmer, mine, rub, third, mound, bury, etc).

    For languages that have lost their original meaning, we see an interruption such as in German.

    Serbian: grana, granica (=branch, border)
    German: ZWEIG, grence

    ZWEIG – Proto-Celts, R1b, invaded about 4500 years ago and a linguistic discontinuity arose especially in western Europe, especially among the tribes that would later be known as the Germanic tribes. Part of the picture of northern Europe has also changed in the British Isles, where there was an I2A haplogroup, and now it is almost non-existent, even though it was the only one in that area.

  18. (2/2) Where to start this consideration? The best to start from GLAVA (head) and false theories.

    In his book from 200 years ago, the linguist Pavle Solaric cited 700 Serbian words in Latin.

    In Serbian: GLAVA (Head)……In Latin: KALVA (i.e. calva).
    Posterior-palatal consonants – K, G, H. The difference is in hardness, G (sound), K, H (soundless)

    In language development, it could happen that G is replaced by K and then in H, for e.g:

    GLAVA (Serbian) > KALVA (Latin) > HLAVA (Czech)

    The harder pronunciations are of the older date, the softer and more refined are younger. Consonant equation by sonority is present in Serbian.

    We will explain the very voices of which the word GLAVA is composed. In Serbian, each voice has a basic meaning and symbolism. With their sound, they imitate the phenomenon itself.

    For example, voices S, Z and Ž in Serbian serve to denote penetrating, light, shining phenomena.

    The Serbian language is original because it was created in the most original way – by onomatopoeia, imitation of natural phenomena

    What is dark or hard will be represented by the letter T, e.g. Tama (=dark).
    Much later, new words are built according to what is a function of things, what they are used for.

    GLAVA – G…L…V (vowels have almost no significance for deciphering)
    The head is a round smooth bone….L is the Lobanja (skull)….Lobanja-Lopta (Skull-ball)

    The smoothest voice ‘L’ serves to indicate smooth, circular, round phenomena.
    This is also the case with many other languages derived from the proto-civilization of the Danube region.
    Examples are – golo, glatko, glecer, gledj, glacano, globus, kolo, lopta, lobanja pa cak I ROLL (naked, smooth, glacier, glaze, glazed, globe, wheel, ball, skull and even ROLL)

    The tongue has rolled into a roll and that is why it is difficult for children to say Lopta, they say – Yopta.

    The consonant pair KL is one of the most numerous in the Serbian language.
    E.g. Knee – kinship and gender were expressed
    In the Old Serbian language, we have KLAN, it is used many times on Etruscan monuments

    The basis of KL has not been preserved by the Italians, Spaniards, French which are the main heirs of the Latin language.

    GLAVA (Serbian) KALVA (Latin), TESTA (Italian), TET (French), KABEZA (Spanish). However,
    GLAVA (Serbian) GOLOVA (Russian) GLOVA (Polish) HLAVA (Czech) HLAVA (Slovak), KALVA (Latin)

    To explain the third consonant V

    Compared to other bones, the head allows us to see. And when we close our eyes or if we are blind, we can see – that is the connection between the VID (sight) and Knowledge.

    In ancient times, the Knowledge was represented by VID (sight). Our GLAVA (head) serves to be the source of our wisdom. VID is in direct connection with VEDA which means knowledge, wisdom. Hence the letter V in the word GLAVA and KALVA. It means GLAVA (head) is – a round bone with which we see and know.

    The language of Etruscans is one of the branches in the development of the original language of the Serbian Danube region. Latin Serbs permeate each other, and this is possible only because Latins and the ancestors of today’s Serbs lived together.

    The rotation of the vowel A in Latin is known
    The Latins took the words but lose their meanings. E.g.

    Serbian: Glava Rasa Roda Rame LATIN: KALVA Arsia, Ardea Armus
    KOLENO (Serbian), ANKALA (Latin), ANKLE (eng).
    Preservation of the KL basis in different languages:
    Latin: KaLva, AnKaLa, ARTUS, taLo
    Serbian: GLava, KoLeno, zGLob, GLezanj
    English: head, knee, enKL, naKL
    Italian: testa, djinokyo, kavilja, noka

    Linguist Solaric (19.cAC) – the language of the Danube civilization should be named – Proto-Serbian, Trans-Danubian or Proto-Danubian or maybe Slavic because of other Slavs.

    Didn’t all Slavs go to Rome to learn how to call their own head?
    The Latins took over the culture, the language and beliefs from the natives. If Serbs lived in the marshes and swamps of Ukraine, they would never have seen Latins and there would not have been this discussion about the Head.

    1. The post above is a prime example of reading propaganda and believing in it. Rather than addressing multiple core contradictions in OP’s theory, it has become his habit to ignore all of these. Point by point:

      1) Vincans aka Anatolians have the following Y-DNA haplogroups:
      G2a2a1, G2a2a1a, G2a2a1a2a, G2a2a1a, G2a2b2a1a, H2

      According to the OP, R1a, I2, R1b spread IE languages. This implies that they all lived in one place, namely: Vinca settlement. Yet we find Anatolian Y-DNA haplogroups rather than what he asserts.

      2. He says one language is older while the other is younger. He is the only one who decides the order for propaganda reasons. According to him, Sanskrit left Serbia. Yet, Iranian shares all the isoglosses of Sanskrit — plus one more — with Slavic. How is this possible if Sanskrit left? Not that it matters for a totally misinformed person. The fact is that Slavics were neighbors of Iranian that formed in BMAC or Iran around 1500 BC. Ask him to get out of this hole as he says IA culture was formed around 1500 BC.

      3. The OP does not know there are numerous IE words not present in Slavic. They just appear out of thin air, and they must have nothing to do with the “so pure” Serbian.

      4. The order of language formation was decided after taking into account all isoglosses as well as cognates that were proven to be shared. Let him post how the whole IE language tree formed. He cannot.

      5. There have been multiple cultures/civilizations that got wiped out. What is strange about that? Does he think everything is eternal and unchanging? Egyptian, Sumerian, Elamite, and countless other cultures all died off. They all must be PIE speakers then as no evidence is required in declaring them to be so. He is the only one who decides what is true or not; no questions or doubts are evaluated.

      6. Byzantines maintained extensive historical records. They documented the arrival and settlement of Slavic colonists. This too is a lie as Byzantines in the past wanted to erase the history of present native Serbs. For anybody who wants to learn the truth about Serbians, they can go through the following:

      7. Aristotle, Alexander, etc., all spoke Greek and considered themselves part of Hellenistic civilization. Come on OP, give us Slavic documents written by them. Please correct the “great falsification” that you have uncovered. OP educate us, yokels, with your ancient history poppycock.

      The OP knows nothing and any effort to educate him causes him to believe more and more strongly his gibberish. I know he won’t post any proof contradicting the above points. I am also tired of busting his misinformation. I declare that OP has won.

    1. Who started it this time?

      Turkey might find itself in deep deep trouble soon Greece, Egypt, Saudi, UAE, Russia and to a lesser extent Iran and France are all dangerous countries to screw with all at once. It is acting a lot like how Russia usually does.

      The good thing to come out of this is some very cool footage of Azeri drones blowing up Armenian tanks. Turkish weaponry rocks!

      1. From the looks of it it is Armenia that is getting pounded. But I can’t say for sure.

        Azeri military drones (Israeli-made) blew up an Armenian S-300 Air Defense Battery! Turkish F-16 shot Armenian Su-25.

        I hope India wouldn’t have to face such embarrassment at the hands of Pakistan against our pricey S-400s. Russian equipment, ships, planes, missiles… seem to be no match against Western stuff whenever they meet in combat.

        1. I think S-400 would come out tops in the existing technological differential b/w India-Pak. Or else China wouldn’t have it. Perhaps the next gen fighters, and US/Israeli technology could beat it. Apart from Chinese next gen fighters, i don;t see Pakistan getting a technological upper hand on that front.

    2. Nagorno Karabakh is a historical Armenian land taken by Bolsheviks and given to Azeries as an administrative unit. When USSR collapsed Azeries thought that internal admin lines should be state lines. Some claim rights for self-determination to separate from one state (e.g. USSR, Yugoslavia) but after that, they do not allow others the same rights. It happened also in Yugoslavia where communists have taken the Serbian historical land, made artificial internal borders and gave this land to artificial nations. When deep state decided that Yugoslavia should be broken, they declared admin lines as international borders. New states, e.g. Croatia, which strongly pushed for self-determination from Yugoslavia did not allow Serbs to do the same from Croatia and there was a war.

      The self-determination (originally invented by Kominterna) and selectively accepted by the West is originally considered for nations not for territories, i.e. Croats with their ethnic territories could leave YU but without pulling Serbian provinces with them. Other artificial nations did the same (Bosnian Muslims, Slovenians, Macedonians, etc) and this de facto led to breaking the Serbian national corpus in several pieces, everywhere as an endangered minority. Serbs, who paid high price to create Yugoslavia (which is their historical land for several 000s of years) to unite after several hundreds of years could not allow such self-destruction.

      Another similarity with NK are African artificial borders made during colonial times.

      1. @Razib

        Thats a brilliant deduction, and I can see why you might have inferred that from the context, but I originally chose it to highlight a rather common family name in our ethnic group/my relatives. It’s just in a truncated form. I’m sure you’re familiar with it. Though I think I’ll go along with your assumption/suggestion from now on. I’m more of a bosom man myself, but a nice derriere never hurt anyone. #thickklivesmatter

          1. I’m actually rather tight-lipped and somewhat of a misanthrope in real life, so sycophancy is not my cup of tea. OTOH, Razib is a long-time fav of mine, so I appreciate the chance to converse with him. Its rare that one gets to communicate with such accomplished and knowledgeable people. I’m sure anyone in my shoes would do the same, as I know of plenty of people from diverse backgrounds that have nothing but the greatest respect for their own role models/idols and men/women of repute. I just appreciate talent when I see it. And that’s not often. Nothing rather “Indian” about it, its a universal trait to bestow honor and respect upon intellectuals, particularly in societies where learning is valued. I’d say most Eurasian societies and cultures have this trait, West Asians and South Asians included.

  19. i am willing to bet anything that the hathras accused won’t live for more than 10 days.

    hyderabad police justice delivery model is still fresh in people’s memory. UP is ruled by BJP, and if this case takes tortuous judicial route, modi will be seen weaker than even KC rao. i dont think modi can afford such an image. hence the prediction. stay tuned.

    1. There is caste angle to it. The accused are Rajputs, already there are murmurs that Brahmins are being neglected/targeted. The BJP would not want another Anand Pal Singh fiasco, lest it dents its UC vote base. So i would not call it a shut case for now.

      1. All this caste BS needs to stop. We need LatAm style indoctrination of South Asians, so that they fundamentally understand that caste has no religious or social connotations. Its simply a poor proxy for racial admixture, given Sanskritization and whatnot. Once the locals realize that the bulk of “Brahmins” and “Kshatriyas” are (very) diluted remnants of Tajiks and West Asians, and mixed just like all other South Asians, things will change quite rapidly, and intermarriage rates will explode.

        ~95% of India is more or less in the Indio-Harnizo range. The paltry ~5% that is either Castizo or Criollo in the NW among minority biradris like Rors, Kambojas, etc. shouldnt even be allowed to hold the rest of the nation hostage with their unrepresentative phenotypes and minority populations. Worst comes worst, these minorities don’t get any play. Big deal. But despite these relatively unimportant setbacks, the rest of India will marry/f*ck/elect/kill everyone with equal passion/prejudice.

        It will greatly reduce caste-based friction and violence, and help the nation focus on the more important issues, like feeding/educating its teeming masses of starving and homeless people. India will never progress without these artificial barriers being eradicated. FFS, we have SSA-rich AfAms marrying “Pure” Nordic Swedes here in America, and over in good ol’ India we have “BrAhMiNs” asserting their mestizo/harnizo “superiority” over their fellow Indios/Mestizos etc. This tragic comedy has to be curtailed and eradicated before more people get hurt.

          1. sane yes, but at the same indirectly asserting biradari separateness (superiority)..”we are the only true west asians etc..all of you so called upper castes ae just as mudblood as the lower/middle castes” 🙂

          2. His assertion of NW Birdari separateness and how him and his family aren’t attracted to other types of Indians and mostly date Southern euros and Levantine people is mostly what he does here. I started to like him more, when he showed me some respect and didn’t direct anymore unusual non-factual diatribes against me, like he did when he first got here. He seems to behave relatively well lately and injects enough generally nice comments about equality and compliments for Sir Khan to stay afloat.

            As Razib has said, Jat trolls are the most banned people here. Apthk is actually someone who I don’t think is a troll. But very pushy about certain views many of these trolls have. I do appreciate when he tries to flex his SAT vocab, keeps me thoroughly entertained. That and when he asks for emails. He always attaches the cutest plaudits with those requests.

          3. NW biradris are not separate anymore than NE communities like the Assamese, Manipuris, etc. are. They are as Indian as you and I, and part of the larger South Asian cultural and societal fabric. I think you might have misunderstood the bigger point being made here, establishing the fact that South Asians are diverse doesnt preclude tolerance and inclusiveness. Nor does it give minorities agency to use their “other-ness” to marginalize different groups of people in the region. As far as my preferences go, I’m rather liberal and have dated women of all kinds. The South Asians I’ve encountered can be rather attractive in their own way, but because my aesthetic ideals lean towards a particular type, I’m rather picky. Its not like I exclusively date West Asians or Euros, and even if that were the case, it wouldn’t tell us anything about the objective value of people/communities that inhabit the subcontinent. My opinion is of no consequence in the grand scheme of things. Everyone is beautiful in their own way, and people all have different preferences. That’s why the world is so interesting. The cline tells us all we need to know in the first place.

        1. The gap between Brahmins and Rors is smaller than between Brahmins and dalits. You seem to try very hard to outgroup these groups. The reality is even the more heavy west eursian groups you mention have quite a bit more phenotypic overlap than you’d like to admit, despite Western shifted average look.

          Also Jats do makeup the biggest group in a couple states,namely Haryana and Punjab. And again many of them don’t pass anywhere outside of India and Pak.

          You yourself are West shifted for one. Maybe your family is in general. I think that is biasing you.
          And caste based violence is mostly OBC and rural land owners in general against dalits. So it’s funny how you single out Brahmins and others. Jats, Yadavs, Patels, etc. are among the biggest perpetrators.

          1. No surprise there, people that share a lot of heritage will no doubt be closer to each other, relative to those that don’t. I am not here to make the case that Rors and others are aliens in the NW region, just that they possess their unique identity. Historically they have been considered the lowest caste, and were treated like Pariahs by Brahmins and others. They have also not played a significant role in the subcontinent’s history. A liminal minority population shouldn’t even be the focus of conversation anyway. Who cares what they think or do? India has far bigger fish to fry.

            The larger point I am making is that regardless of “caste” >95% of all South Asians are not as stratified as some think, with differences in phenotype across a limited range. The diversity within this large group exists more with respect to culture and traditions, languages, religion, etc. Phenotype differences are still present, but not as large as one might imagine. More people need to understand this fact, for its the only way that one can eliminate the kind of caste-ist discrimination and prejudice that rears its ugly head in the region. I said earlier that people outside South Asia need to recognize the connections they harbor with the natives of the region, in order to reduce prejudice and be more appreciative of their heritage. The same is true for people living within the region.

            Its honestly rather sad to see blood-brothers fighting over labels that have little value in the global sense, when they share more with each other than they realize. Imagine the work one could accomplish by working together, instead of against each other. I am aware of the dynamics of caste discrimination as well, Brahmins are far from the only perpetrators. I only used that as an example that can be generalized to most other communities. With Sanskritization, the whole idea of “passing” has taken on new forms, which when combined with the general lack of understanding of race and phenotype in India, makes for rather foolish and regretful scenarios.

            What about the remaining minority of people(s) that look distinct from the masses in South Asia? They don’t all have homogenous appearances either, range from East Asians in the NE to Castizos and Criollos in the NW, and depending on West Eurasian ancestry/heritage and family history, overlap with others that live near them. These people shouldn’t get any special treatment either, neither should West Asians, and they all possess some sort of recent admixture from ENA sources just like NW South Asians. Their phenotypes are not special, just different. And in the South Asian context, a rather invisible minority as well. These people need to learn to live with other South Asians in harmony, and South Asians need to stop pedestalizing anyone that looks different or “foreign” for trivial reasons. We need to head down China’s path in this regard, and harbor a healthy skepticism and indifference to West Asian and Castizo phenotypes. India must forge its own unique identity on the global stage, while showcasing its diversity and deeper connections to Eurasians across the globe. Its the only way forward.

      2. Haven’t followed this case but I am constantly amazed at how Indian media takes a single incident of something (this rape as horrific it is, any rape is) and plays it up on loop for weeks until the next outrage comes along. Doesn’t do anything for the cause of justice or awareness or anything else; serves to incite passions, provide soapboxes to various politicians and almost prevents a legal, level headed responses..It’s all about TRP and politicians of all hues love it (especially when in opposition) to do their grandstanding and discomfit the ruling party..

        1. we have become a nation of voyeurs. pure tamashabeen people. like the romans in the dying days of their empire. we need bloodier and bloodier gladiatorial games, even when the barbarians are gathering at the gates..

          hence my prediction. people need bloody spectacles. nobody gives a damn about judicial process or the rule of the law. i double down on my prediction. the only question is how many days will it take before the accused are done in. i think 10 days is bit on the longer side. more like 3 or 4 days.

  20. RE: Modern Weapon

    There is already S-500 operational and not yet for sale. It is important to say that neither S-400 nor S-300 should defend themselves from drones and grenades. They must be accompanied by Pancir system which protects them. In Syrian military base Russians every day destroy dozens of drones and protect their S400s. In last 20 years Russians quietly developed superior weapons. Americans recognize the superiority of Russian weapons: 5th generation aircraft, S500 and S400 are far superior than Patriot systems, Sukhoi and Mig31 aircrafts, network connected tank Armata, Poseidon is an autonomous, nuclear-powered, and nuclear-armed unmanned underwater vehicle capable of delivering both conventional and nuclear apocalypse torpedo which can smash seacoast cities with high tsunamis, silent diesel submarines which cannot be detected, Kinzhal nuclear-capable air-launched ballistic missile, nuclear-powered, nuclear-armed cruise missile with virtually unlimited range which can fly indefinitely, super-fast (20 times faster than sound) hypersonic rockets where Russians have 15 years advantage and there is currently no defence against them, very superior electronic warfare system which can make enemy’s weapon blind. The Americans have advantage in plane carriers but Russians’ super precise Calibre rocket systems which can be launched from 3000 km away from river boats make powerful plane carriers to be ordinary buckets. They can be located in every ship container in every location in the world.

    All these changes happened while Americans were busy with bombing of Serbia where they lost 10 years. Democrat presidents reduced the military budget and the number of weapons. The most of their enormous budget is spent unproductively, on expensive an useless military bases around the world, expensive bureaucracy and consultants and the least for the development of the most advanced military systems.

    And there is China coming, which also drew lessons from the bombing of Serbia, including Chinese embassy. Now, there is a very different game with Chinese having enormous cash to finance Russian and their own weapon development.

  21. Babri Masjid demolition case: All 32 accused including LK Advani acquitted.

    I didn’t expect anything else, but it feels like the era of ‘secular India’ is finally dead. In the end, my guess is that historians won’t ask “why did it die?” as an official ideology, rather, “how was it able to live for so long despite its neighbours steadily moving away from liberalism?”.

    It’s easy to ask of Indians to be like Scandinavians, but India doesn’t border Norway, so its domestic politics will necessarily reflect its external environment. Geography is like parents: we can’t choose it.

    1. Another case of Hindutva people trying to out-victim Muslims. So many Bollywood movies have Muslim being shown as terrorists. What I do find made up is the extra effort movies go to always have a Muslim character (usually some chacha) to be virtuous and principled for no good cinematic reason.

      Muslims are ordinary people too, why unnecessarily drag morality into Cinema? Can’t there be just normal Muslim characters? Most of the younger Muslim kids are as wasted with tiktok, pub-g as the Hindus. Most of the 20 something are killing time pursuing a girl and most 30 something are trying to buy a house. They aren’t virtuous or anything. Gully boy had a fairly accurate representation in Murad-Safeena.

      1. I agree..thankfully the virtuous Muslim trope has been retired now. The virtuous Muslim chacha is a version of the “model minority” trope that we see in the US, and is a form of racism and othering. I am glad that they are showing normal Muslim characters (or as normal as Hindu ones) in Bollywood movies now – Gully Boy and 3 Idiots (Madhavan’s character) are two that immediately come to mind.

  22. The reporting of a spate of gruesome sexual crimes in Hindistan reminds me again of this report from a East UP village,

    “There is an exception to the caste divide in Shahabpur, which many Muslim and Hindu men enjoy. For a few rupees or handfuls of rice, they are said to demand and get sex with Dalit women, typically just after sundown, when the villagers troop out to the fields to ablute. At an informal gathering of Muslim men outside the house of Anwar Ali—an upstanding clerk, who also housed your correspondent—it was estimated that perhaps 40% of the village’s non-dalit men upheld this ancient tradition. According to Sarju, until Sushila lost her youthful good looks, he suffered near-nightly terrors from drunken Patel youths, who came clamouring for her outside his hut.”

    We have to discuss how the core of the Hindu world has become the world’s worst place to be a woman.

    This ill-treatment of women continues in the diaspora,

    “Sex-selective abortion is a contentious issue in some Asian countries. Recent research suggests that some Asian immigrants to the West continue this practice. A recent retrospective cohort study of live births in mothers of Indian (n = 1597) and Pakistani (n = 5617) origin suggested a skewed female-to-male sex ratio among children born in Norway. Significant differences were observed in the sex ratio of children born to mothers of Indian origin compared with children born to mothers of Pakistani origin. A skewed number of female births among higher birth orders (i.e. third or later) may reflect an increase in sex-selective abortion among mothers of Indian origin, although the numbers are too small to draw firm conclusions. In this article, I build on this work in order to discuss possible cultural and religious differences between the Indian and Pakistani Diasporas in Norway that may contribute to an understanding of the differences between the two groups in the use of abortion to determine the sex of children. The two groups are dominated by people of Punjabi origin and share many characteristics, but not religion. It seems likely that Islam is a factor that inhibits the practice of sex-selective abortion.”

    1. very bad. This type of stuff gives credence to Hindus converting to escape oppression. Probably some did for just that. Sad thing is that S Asian Muslims are also into caste. Look at Pak. Mostly dalit Christian convert girls sold to China.

      There needs to be some reform. Caste is like slavery, it’s an original civilizational sin, only even more deeply rooted. People argue America is a nation founded on racism, something I have mixed feelings about. Regardless, India is a civilization founded on it then.


    2. That Norway example is comparing Indians Sikhs with Pakistani Muslims. In India, foeticide and female infanticide is most dire amongst Jatt Sikhs. Among Hindus too its worst in landed castes like Rajputs, Jats and Yadavs etc.
      Strange to blame Hinduism here. Brahmins did not preach subjugation of women to these castes.

      You really are playing fast and loose with the data here. Its rather dishonest to blame Hinduism for all the ills of the Jatt Sikh diaspora.

      1. good point. I did not realize that. It’s true the landed castes are worst with this because of patrilineal inheritance. It’s all about the money.

        Pakistanis probably care less about this because of cousin marriage. All land stays in the family anyway

  23. @AP

    False equivalence in your comparative above with NE groups above. They are quite a bit racially different. NW Birdaris are slightly shifted.

    And yes they shouldn’t get special treatment. But you seem very quick to group NW Birdaris with West Asians, when in reality they are closer to simply just upper caste N Indians more than anything else, form a genetic standpoint. They have a bit of shift West but still their AASI is what 20% vs 30% for a Brahmin? And those are the MOST shifted ones. Not the least. Again, look at Reich data. Admix wise these groups are basically similar to Northern S Asian high castes for the most part, except for maybe a 10% shift. And yes, glorifying more West Eurasian phenotypes is nonsensical.

    And China’s path??? E Asian countries worship the hell out of Euro looks. Their culture even in the diaspora does it. Look at the gender outmarriage disparity rates. The whole world mostly worships Euro looks. Those in India who are a bit closer on that spectrum lucked the fucked out because they look closer in phenotype to the historical power brokers in India for hundreds of years, barring post independence. People like to be associated with winners. Again these looks can be found in some frequency in many populations. Yes the frequency is the highest in the most steppe shifted populations. But you exaggerate the heck out of it. The reality is that it’s a minority of most communities that can pass outside of S Asia well, that includes the most shifted ones. My Dad grew up in New Delhi. My family owns land in NRC and Haryana, even rural parts. I know what the people look like there. One of my best childhood friends where I grew up in a Haryanvi Jat. I know what her family looks like, entire extended family. I know images of agitation. I have seen images of panchayat gatherings.

    In otherwords, a Haryanvi Jat is more likely to be mistaken for an Indian Brahmin than some sort of MENA person to anyone who has any modicum of exposure to S Asian looks. Maybe you are anexception. But aren’t the norm for any community, besides maybe the ultra shifted ones like the Kalaash.

    Your whole schtick is based on a false premise, biased perhaps by your own appearance which is rather west shifted. You also outright called most Indian women ugly. Then you jumped to them just not being attractive to you. And now you are saying they are “beautiful in their own way.”

    Your views spill put man. Maybe you are reforming and that’s fantastic. But you still exotify constantly, just more subtly. No one is denying diversity. But your racial pitches about phenotype are simply inaccurate on a group level. Again, we agree about trends. But the magnitude and the strength of those trends is where we disagree.

    1. @thewarlock

      No skin in the game, and I share many of your objections. I’m sure APthk is a good guy IRL, but he often says things that can raise one’s eyebrows, and the general interests at play here strike me as very unusual (almost bordering on disturbing).

      And the Criollo/Castizo/Harnizo/Mestizo/Indio-thing is confusing; Mexicans, actual Mexicans don’t even show much familiarity with this sort of terminology, lol. And most Mexican Americans have no clue about this stuff. Don’t understand how these categories can bear any relation to South Asia.

      But just to be factual, his community (at least the samples that we currently have) averages around 15% AASI, 85% West Eurasian. Sikh Jatts are more around 20% AASI, 80% West Eurasian. Muslim Jutts from Pakistan tend to be more around 25% AASI, 75% West Eurasian. It’s odd, considering the usual geographic expectations.

      So at approximately 30% AASI, Uttar Pradeshi Brahmins have double the AASI of people like APthk.

      Furthermore, based on our current samples, his community does seem to average around 40% ancient Eurasian steppe (35% ancient Eastern European-related + 5% Botai/West Siberian Neolithic). In contrast to Jat/Rors being 40-ish% ancient Eurasian steppe, Uttar Pradeshi Brahmins are more around 25-30-ish% ancient Eurasian steppe (and probably closer to 25%).

      Jats/Rors are certainly a people of Greater India; they are undoubtedly South Asian. And I’m sure that in the flesh, many of them look rather evidently Indian.

      But they do seem to be a West Eurasian population, albeit of a South Asian variety.

      In other words, they are part of the Indian Cline… but they’re on the West Eurasian end of it (I mean at 85% West Eurasian genetic ancestry, they’re basically a West Eurasian population). Just like how the Paniya and Pulliyar are on the ENA end of the South Asian cline (70%-75% AASI, 30%-25% West Eurasian).

      Again though, Sikh Jatts do have a little bit more AASI than Hindu Jats, and the Pakistani ones seem to be even more AASI-shifted.

      Interestingly, although the Pakistani ones might be more around 25% AASI, unlike the Hindu Jats they do show some very minor signals related to BMAC.

      So, they have more AASI… but their West Eurasian ancestry is marginally less “Indian-like” than Hindu Jats (they begin to show hints of Dardic-Nuristani-Pashtun-Tajik type signals. But still, they’re overwhelmingly skewed towards other northern South Asians).

      Not disagreeing with you the cultural angle, nor contributing to the phenotype discussion. Nor am I agreeing with APthk. Just keeping the aDNA in mind, since I understand that angle with depth.

      PS: Sorry to everyone else for contributing to this discussion. I know that talking about these approximate percentages of genetic ancestry from ancient populations gets nauseating for many, and I sympathize with that tendency.

      Again, it’s just that I work on these issues due to my interest in the prehistories of West, Central, and South Asia; ancient genomics has much to say.

      1. @Commentator/Seinundzeit
        I know that this may be a difficult thing to answer but what do you think the percentage of people in India with a majority west eurasian dna would be (ANI and ASI combined above 50%). I also want to know their proportion in states like Tamil Nadu and Odisha

        1. @Narasinga Deva

          That’s a difficult question to answer on my end, since I don’t have a good feel for Indian demographics.

          But I think it’s fair to say that most Indian populations (barring West Eurasian groups in the northwest, upper castes everywhere, and some predominately ENA tribal populations deep in the subcontinent) hover around 55%-60% West Eurasian, 45%-40% AASI.

          So most Indians are pretty close to being hybrids between East and West Eurasia… but there is a skew towards West Eurasia.

          But again, I could be wrong, as I don’t have much familiarity with the sizes of these populations that we see in genomic studies.

      2. can you show me the paper for these percentages for Haryvani Jats vs. Brahmins? I am just curious. Reich Lab didn’t show a big difference between traditionally West Eurasian groups he brings up, people like Khatris, and say Gujarati Brahmins, with the latter actually being a tiny bit more West shifted. Where is this 15% 85% coming from? A fair chunk of Indus Periphery DNA was also AASI looking at the Reich paper. So AASI numbers straight were underestimates given the three individuals used as proxies for tabulating Indus Periphery were on average 25% AASI.

        Also out of curiosity, what are these numbers for S Indian Brahmins. I only ask because I myself cluster with them.

        “In other words, they are part of the Indian Cline… but they’re on the West Eurasian end of it (I mean at 85% West Eurasian genetic ancestry, they’re basically a West Eurasian population).”

        So what is your cutoff point for “basically.” Is it 15% so as to include Hindu Jats? Or 20% to include Sikh Jatts? Or 25% to include UP Brahmins and Muslim Jutts?

        The reality is that non Dalits of the Northern part of the subcontinent all have the same three components but in different quantities and all have them to a decent degree. 15% steppe, as Razib has sometimes brought up as a possible average for typical N Indian, is sizeable just as 15% AASI is for Hindu Jats. Basically, in the grand scheme, this East vs. West Eurasian might be a thing with controversial red lines but the fact is that hundreds of millions of people across various castes have all three components in sizeable quantities. Thus, while there is diversity, there is quite a bit of overlap. And this bleeds into phenotype, as you yourself have stated.

        And yes many of them look unmistakably S Asian. S Asia racially isn’t just AASI. Actually, it is more IPE and more IPE+AASI than anything else for S Asian look. Even 30% IPE in the most tribally shifted people is quite significant. So if you think of it in that context, there is not a single group within the subcontinent that is not IPE+AASI. I think IPE+AASI is the best racial definition of S Asians, if someone were to make one. Based on that, S Asians are all indios or Mestizos. None are criolles.

        And this E vs. West Eurasian reasoning to compare to S America is quite odd to me. AASI is so insanely far removed from other forms of E Eurasian. It’s pretty much its own thing.

        1. not apples-to-apples, but look at figure 3

          i’ve run qpadmin with narasimhan et al. populations to compare to the paper, and some of the jatts are the most steppe samples i’ve ever seen for s. asians. not like WAY more than UP/bihar brahmins, but clearly more.

          south indian brahmins look like 75% north indian brahmin + 25% tamil nadar or something

          1. thanks. The Onge looks about 20%. Granted, I know absolute numbers don’t mean a whole lot. But Brahmins look less than 2x Onge compared to Rors. I think my initial 1:1.5 ratio was correct. Regardless, the differences aren’t so massive.

            Hmm 75% 25% is interesting. Yeah so someone like me is say 23ish % steppe vs. 40% like Apthk. A whole 17% diff.

            That’s like African Americans vs. their sub-Saharan counterparts. Different sure but overlap, massively. Again, I think the degree of trying to differentiate is weird. Differences exist but motivation seems to be to paint them as something far greater than they are not, to a degree that distorts the truth enough to the point of clear falsehood.

            Also, you asked in another post if Jats are the majority of any state. They make up a good chunk of Haryana and Punjab. If you look up pics of those places, let’s even go backwards before all the UP/Bihari migrants that some racialists like to demonize, you can see most of them look clearly S Asian.

            The best was the assertion made in a previous post about Jats not being colorist within families because everyone is “light.” I know so many real life examples of that not being true that I literally almost fell out of my chair chuckling.

          2. @thewarlock

            I never said that Jats were all “light” — some have swarthy skin colors, ranging from darker shades of olive to a reddish Brown pigmentation. Even the “paler” Jats tan rather well. What I said was that fair skin was fairly common among Jats, (when I say fair, I mean Fitzpatrick 2 and 3 on the scale) to the point that people dont discuss skin color and deride those with darker skin. There is also great sexual dimoprhism with regard to pigmentation, that is, females are often much lighter than the males, on average around 2-3 shades lighter. But skin color is really a moot point, I find that facial features and bone structure trump skin color when it comes to racial identification. Case in point: Many of the Southern Europeans with Brown skin still can’t pass in any region of South Asia, Afghanistan included. In that sense, it is rather pointless to talk about the finer nuances of pigmentation.

            Also, remember Onge is not the same thing as AASI. Far from it. Read my other posts on this thread for what Razib said about this issue. AASI is simply a form of East Eurasian ancestry. In that sense, Doctor Saab, both you and I are West-East Eurasian mixes, just to different degrees. Heck, all of South Asia, from Tajiks to Pashtuns to the Paniya is a mix of West and East Eurasian and thus in the same boat. Its a rather large boat, too. Even LatAms and Central Asians are members of this ship, as we should really call it. Welcome to the LatAm/Central Asian/South Asian world.

        2. @thewarlock

          “can you show me the paper for these percentages for Haryvani Jats vs. Brahmins?”

          The paper Razib linked is the only work on Hindu Jats and Rors in the literature; and as you can see, it has them at like 60%-70% Eurasian steppe/ancient eastern European.

          60%-70% is not correct. You get those sorts of numbers when you use Onge and Iran_N… and South Asians don’t have actual Iran_N, and AASI is quite distinct from the Onge.

          I’ve worked with qpGraph. It’s a pain… but it’s worth it, if you have the time.

          And I’ve worked with qpAdm, which is easier, but still intensive.

          In addition to exploring these questions with methods involving formal statistics, nMonte in conjunction David’s (of Eurogenes fame) G25 (scaled coordinates) has been shockingly effective (like insanely accurate, if you’re trying to model populations using ancient references from the Bronze Age and onwards. Not so much for deep ancestry; if you’re interested in the Paleolithic roots of contemporary populations, or in the deeper relationships between ancient populations, you have to stick to qpGraph. TreeMix is fun too… but qpGraph is solid).

          All three modes of attack pretty much put Hindu Jats at 85% West Eurasian, 15% AASI. And all three pretty much converge at approximately 40% Eurasian steppe/ancient Eastern European for these eastern Jats and Rors.

          “between traditionally West Eurasian groups he brings up, people like Khatris, and say Gujarati Brahmins”

          Yeah I agree on that; there isn’t much difference between Khatri and Gujarati Brahmins. Khatri are a bit under 20% AASI, Gujarati Brahmins are a bit under 25% AASI.

          “A fair chunk of Indus Periphery DNA was also AASI looking at the Reich paper.”

          The numbers I’m bringing up involve a disentangling of the AASI and Iranian plateau (or perhaps southern Central Asian) elements in INP. So I’m not saying that Jats are 15% AASI in addition to INP; I’m saying Jats are only 15% AASI in the big picture, even when counting AASI in INP.

          Hindu Jats are at one extreme on the Indian cline (85% West Eurasian, 15% ENA), Paniya and Pulliyar are at the other (70%-75% ENA, 30%-25% West Eurasian).

          “Also out of curiosity, what are these numbers for S Indian Brahmins. I only ask because I myself cluster with them.”

          They’re around 30%-35% AASI, 70%-65% West Eurasian. And they’re around 20%-15% Eurasian steppe/ancient Eastern European. Just as Razib noted, they are basically 75% North Indian Brahmin-like + 25% Nadar-like.

          “Based on that, S Asians are all indios or Mestizos. None are criolles.

          And this E vs. West Eurasian reasoning to compare to S America is quite odd to me.”

          It is strange. Many Latin Americans (at least the ones in the states) don’t even know what these terms imply/mean… so, rather odd to import them into a totally alien context.

          1. Like I said. Apthk is trying hard to distance himself from people like me with his comments about mestizos shitting on indios and how his people are castizos and criolles.

            The thing is that they are like 85 15 and someone like me is like 67.5 32.5. The difference isn’t as wild as he is saying. The average N Indian is basically a harnizo. And his Birdari are closest to castizos (closer to 75 than to 100)

            So a castizo trying so hard to flex that too against mostly harnizos, is quite odd even in this very unusual paradigm we are using.

            Basically, I get your point that these terms are just bordering nonsensical. But even in this widely inaccurate paradigm, his points still don’t stand, IMO.

          2. @Sein

            I know you mean well, so I wanted to clarify your misunderstanding of my choice, and usage of LatAm racial terms.

            India is a rather close parallel to LatAm for obvious reasons; in fact, it is essentially like the LatAm of the East, if you will. AASI is a fundamentally East Eurasian component. Divergence times and other such details dont change this fact. Hence, people that are mixes of West and East Eurasian in the tradition of Europeans and pre-Colombian natives approximate Latin Americans pretty darn well. Heck, I’ve seen many phenotype parallels (read: doppelgangers) of Latinos and Hispanics in South Asian communities. Not a coincidence at all.

            Basal Eurasian makes up a significant proportion of most West Eurasian people’s heritage. However, it is even more different from “West Eurasian” proper than “East Eurasian” itself. Despite this fact, people with significant proportions of Basal Eurasian ancestry like most MENA people and many Europeans, are still proper “West Eurasians”.

            In the case of AASI, it is nowhere near as diverged from proper East Eurasian, as Basal Eurasian is from West Eurasian proper. It is actually far closer to East Eurasian and clusters within that larger “group” as well. Even the natives of the Americas are diverged from most East Asians, and yet they are still a part of the larger sphere of East Eurasian ancestry.

            Let me quote the man himself:

            “east eurasian = (northeast asian,(oceanian,(indigenous SE Asian,AASI)))
            newickish format above. the last estimates i’m hearing put aasi onge divergent 35-40 K. onge are really descended from burmese hunter gatherers. onge are diverged from AASI. presumably some groups in the NE have more recent gene flow. but on the whole, no gene flow.”

            Given all of these facts, and many more, that indicate AASI is most definitely an East Eurasian component, it is really a moot point to debate its membership in the East Eurasian sphere of ancestry. AASI is a East Eurasian component, and part of the same larger group of ancestry as NE/E/SE Asian, period. This is what the evidence shows.

            As to why I use these LatAm racial terms, well, simply because as you might not know, they are quite often used in LatAm countries themselves. And considering India’s (racial) identity as a LatAm-esque nation, it makes perfect sense to transpose those terms onto the castes/tribes of the subcontinent. Some in the LatAm diaspora (particularly in the US) might be unaware of such terminology/jargon, but that isn’t uniformly true either. For instance, the time I’ve spent among the White Cuban diaspora in the Miami-Dade area disabused me of any notions of “racial uniformity” or equality espoused by the Cubanos. They actually use many terms to distinguish various forms of ancestry among themselves, and this extends to other Latino communities I’ve interacted with in SoFlo. Texas springs to mind as another location brimming with Latinos and Hispanics, where such terms are thrown around as well.

            Anyhow, it is far better to use these terms than monikers like “Brahmin” which have an added ambiguous element to them subject to manipulation. These monikers are also devoid of any real phenotypic and ancestral meaning, especially now that everyone is changing their surnames, marrying across caste-lines and engaging in Sanskritization all the time. In my opinion, caste-ist attitudes should be done away with entirely, but if people insist upon maintaining the status quo, a less insidious form of classification that is correlated with one’s ancestral proportions is far more suitable and conducive to South Asia’s needs. It paints individuals as nothing more than proportions of their West:East Eurasian ancestry, as opposed to portraying them as some mythical Aryan Invader or descendant of Rama and Krishna. This also means that in the long run, caste-ist attitudes would naturally erode due to the simple fact that most of South Asia is in the Indio-Harnizo range.

            Another reason this system is more equitable is because it makes it evident that everyone in South Asia is more or less interrelated at a deep level, and shares ancestral components to different degrees. This means both Rors and Pathans and Gujarati Vanias share components, but to different magnitudes. In the larger global sphere, it also means that South Asians share genetic connections to both the West and East Eurasian spheres of ancestry. Hence, they really aren’t as alien as some folks would like them to be. The system as it stands currently doesn’t allow for this crucial fact to be disseminated, and portrays different communities as more distinct from each other than they actually are, in addition to creation myths that purport divine origins for Kshatriyas and Vaishyas and Brahmanas, with toxic, prejudiced undertones.

            This has devastating results in a developing region like South Asia, where a fragile ego and low SES often makes it so that one’s identity is the sole bargaining chip, and a crucial attribute to gain and earn respect in a fundamentally unequal society. It also makes South Asians seem like a unique “race” of people that don’t share heritage with anyone outside of the region. A notion that is not only patently false, but also one that contributes to joingoism, Hindutva, and just general foolishness and underdevelopment. #Latinosarethetruechosenpeople #SouthAsiansaretheLatinsoftheEast

      3. @Sein
        I agree with your general statement, but you made a rather careless blunder when you said that these NW biradri populations can look “Indian” in some cases– thats a very incorrect thing to say, for many reasons. For one, “Indian” doesnt mean anything in terms of phenotype, it encompasses a range of phenotypes from East Asian to Latino Indios/Mestizos/Harnizos etc to Tribals that have a rather unique look, to West Asian and MENA looking people that are found among NW South Asian Criollos. Its rather like saying someone looks “Latino” or “American” — it doesn’t tell you anything about their ancestry. Latinos and Americans alike can be of any race, and can look like anything. The same applies to South Asians, including Indians, Pakistanis and Afghans. These are all different nationalities with a plethora of different races and ethnic groups under their umbrella. One needs to be careful about distinguishing between nationality and race.

        Of course, simply looking like a West Asian doesnt mean that NW South Asians and West Asians are one and the same people ethnically, as they still have differences in total ancestry, and things like culture, religion, traditions, etc. They have unique identities in that sense. But their appearances overlap in a racial sense. In effect, saying that a particular group looks “Indian” is like saying that Pashtuns look South Asian or Pakistani. They might live in South Asia, and have distinct strains of ancestry in the form of AASI, but Pashtuns have a West Asian shifted appearance on the whole. The same applies to Jats, they are NW South Asians with predominantly West Asian ancestry. Therefore, their appearance is Caucasian/West Asian, no different from the case of Pashtuns. Besides, you have never even seen Rors and Hindu Jats in the flesh, as you have admitted before, so I don’t think you are in any position to be making guesses about what they look like.

        OTOH, I have seen many Pashtuns here in the DMV area and elsewhere in the US, in addition to seeing thousands of them online, be it videos, pictures, etc. They overlap to a HUGE extent with Rors and Hindu Jats in appearance. Iranians, particularly Persians are another group with which we overlap in appearance. Jats and Pashtuns are not a “White” people, not even the vast majority of West Asians and Northern Africans are “White” in the European sense — and I’ve said this before as well. On the whole, Jats look like what they are — West Asian derived individuals with a healthy dose of Steppe and some AASI. Pashtuns have a slightly different ancestral makeup, but they also overlap the most with West Asians. This means they are also predominantly Iranic or West Asian in appearance, with a significant minority that has a Slavic appearance, overlapping with East Slavs. This is why NW South Asians/Jats and Pashtuns fit best in an area ranging from Georgia to Iran, and in some cases, in those Eastern European countries that have such phenotypes. Turkey of course has all of these ethnic groups, so we pass there as well.

        There are also Jats (and Pashtuns) that dont have a West Asian appearance, owing to the fact that some have intermarried with other ethnicities living among them, be it Uzbeks or Hazara or other East Asian-heavy groups in the case of Pashtuns, and high-AASI groups in the case of Jats. This means that the Jat and Pashtun identity is heterogeneous in a sense, and includes certain people that don’t have the same ancestral background/appearance as the bulk of Pashtuns and Jats. I can’t speak to how such mixed individuals are viewed in the Pashtun community, but among Jats, it really depends on the family in question. Some “pure” Jat families might marry individuals that look like Castizos/mixed, so it its hard to predict with any certainty.

        South Asia is a very diverse region, so pigeonholing all 2 billion or so of them into a particular “look” is really foolish and intellectually dishonest. We have possibly the most diverse region on planet Earth, alongside Africa. Instead of addressing this very real and beautiful diversity, I see certain people like to cover it up with the intention of making the region seem like a “Brown” monolith with no connections to the outside world. This is not only wrong, it does a disservice to the unique identities of all the people that live in the region.

        1. Hindu Jats I have seen look diff than Pashtuns and more like upper caste general N Indian Rajputs and Brahmins with a slightly west shifted average and more individuals that can pass West of S Asia. But a fair chunk still pass fine in general Indian public, beyond simply Birdari groups. You frankly to me don’t typify “average” Haryana Jat look. Yes you fit well in diversity but are relatively West shifted looking, hence why I think you are confused.

          Like Haryana Jats look surprisingly more AASI shifted than their DNA would suggest they would. If anything, they are more genotypically West shifted than they are phenotypically. Maybe there was some selection for pro AASI looks? Not sure.

  24. The best was the assertion made in a previous post about Jats not being colorist within families because everyone is “light.” I know so many real life examples of that not being true that I literally almost fell out of my chair chuckling.

    idw. go to pornhub and google ‘jatt porn.’ all the women have pink nipples broh…

    1. @Razib

      lol. You’ve obviously been exposed to some pretty insane and inane Jatt nonsense, as I can plainly see. The areola/nipple/genital Fitzpatrick scale gradation is HILARIOUS! “Jatts arent just White, they have pink penises and nipples too!” On a related note, in my time shadowing urologists, volunteering as an EMT-B, and working as a ER Scribe, I’ve seen all manner of private parts, and truth be told, nether region (and nipple) coloration is really all over the place. Its not really a 1-to-1 correlation, even with the palest Europeans. Distinctly remember seeing an Irish ginger with a brown thang. Now that I’ve said my piece, I’ll get off my elephant. #BBC

  25. Just a point to note. I don’t have a stake in this game.

    A lot of bias in posting pictures of lighter skin people. An unbiased view would be to take a look at pictures of agitating Jats. This is representative of the jat population.

    There are of course people with lighter skin in all communities. May be the average is a bit more among Jats. If you showed a picture of agitating Jats to an outsider he wouldn’t be confused about which country they belong to.

    1. trust me. You bring this up on any forum where phenotype is discussed and you get a nice version of Ali Baba and 40 excuses.

      Calling people “fake jats” is probably the 3rd most common pass time of internet jatt trolls after bragging about pure West Eurasian looks and lamenting about being confused with “ugly” other Indians.

  26. So a castizo trying so hard to flex that too against mostly harnizos, is quite odd even in this very unusual paradigm we are using.

    lol. wtf are you talking about bro?

    1. @Razib

      All my attempts to reconcile with thewarlock have failed. He refuses to see beyond his own narrative prison that he has constructed for himself. I will leave him to his devices. May the Lord Krishna save his soul. Don’t hate your own kind so much, Doctor Saab. You’ve failed to gain anything from my novel-length posts. Please re-read them when you get a chance. #JaiShreeAmeen

      1. Well you’ve reformed quite a bit from before. And now you are using my sacred catch phrase.

        Anyway thanks for the change towards greater civility. We can agree to disagree on this

    2. Apthk makes constant point about how his group is “special” and West Eurasian racially and others aren’t and pokes fun at how the others are in a caste hierarchy, when in reality they are all “mixed race” compared to criolle Jats. He is implying his group isn’t part of the same racial situation of S Asia and has stated numerous times that they are phenotypically and genotypically West Asians who are just culturally S Asian.

      Basically he exagerrated the heck out of Jat vs. other Indian group racial differences, when the differnece in ancestry is like 20% steppe in place of AASI or 10% as in the case of Brahmins.

      1. I generally agree with you on this topic but at a certain point I just lose interest and stop caring. Lol how do you keep going? Not telling you to stop as I do agree with you. But I guess not caring itself is a privilege of living outside of India.

        1. He has found his image. It is especially hard for the dark triad group to stop. And so the two objects, each seeing the other as an image are caught in a feedback loop.

          1. Being a whisperer is a calling, not merely a job 😉

            And Modi has tasked me to keep the agitation down. It is the secret ITcel cabal

          2. A calling is exactly what I meant. You and him are like what Razib described.

            Though the ITcel isn’t even close to being a cabal especially when it is so well known, more like a weekend club.

        2. Thread replies have reached the limit so idk if that is for Razib or me. My original and current statement is that neither is the image and both are the objects. Both are the original and neither are the second even though both see each other as the second: a push with no direction, as opposed to the original: a push with too many directions.

      2. @thewarlock

        This reply makes me feel like you haven’t been reading any of my posts carefully. In fact, this amounts to trolling IMO.

        I never said that my group was special in any way. From the moment I came to this blog, I’ve constantly emphasized a distinct Jatt identity in terms of cultural idiosyncrasies, phenotype and other suck quirks, but not once did I claim that Jats were above other South Asians or that they were better or special in any way. In contrast, I said repeatedly, that they were treated as pariahs and outcastes by the Brahmanical orthodoxy, and played little to no role in the annals of Indian history. They were also treated as Shudras by people in the caste hierarchy and thus many chose to remain non-denominational initially and later, either embraced a form of spiritualism distinct from Hinduism like Arya Samaj, or became Sikh, which is akin to a cult in many ways. Rors/Hindu Jats dont make up the majority of Jats for a reason.

        Further, I also have said repeatedly, that Jats are NW South Asians with their own unique identity. This identity is not limited to the cultural sense. They are not “White” like the bulk of Europeans are, nor are they “Brown”. They are not the same people as Persians or other West Asians, despite the fact that they share the bulk of their ancestry with them, and thus have a Caucasoid/West Asian appearance that overlaps with them. They are certainly part of the East-West Eurasian cline in South Asia, just located at one end/the West Eurasian end of it. They have some AASI ancestry and West Asian ancestry that is specific to the IndPe region (and Iranic in origin), in addition to Steppe ancestry as well. Overall, they are part of South Asia’s immense diversity, while having a unique phenotype distinct from non-Jats.

        Everyone in South Asia, from the Pashtuns to the Jats is a part of this same East-West Eurasian cline, and they are all mixed, just to different degrees. This more or less correlates to phenotype, which is why I use the LatAm terms to indicate if someone is a Criollo, Castizo, etc or not. But looking like a West Asian Criollo doesn’t mean NW South Asians are superior. Just different. As to whether or not this constitutes a “hierarchy” — that is up to the observer to decide. In case you haven’t noticed I’ve stressed inordinately, that I vehemently disagree with the hierarchical nature of the caste system, which is why I think terms like Brahmin etc. should be done away with, and people should instead adopt terms that accurately reflect their phenotype instead.

        It is stupid to treat people with more East Eurasian ancestry as “inferior” when all the nations with more East Eurasian ancestry like Japan, Korea and China etc are much better off than the entire region of South Asia. If anything, West Eurasian ancestry has done the region no favors. Besides, Jats have historically been at the receiving end of the malignant aspects of the caste system. IMO, since the bulk of South Asians are not Criollos or even Castizos, (though all South Asians are part of the same cline), it makes no sense to have thousands of different castes that purport a divine origin, and discriminate against others they are not very different from. No caste or ethnic group should be given agency to discriminate against another.

        When people realize that the caste system is a farce, things will change very rapidly in South Asia. We should still respect each other’s identities, but we shouldn’t overstate differences when they dont exist; in other words, why create unneeded complexity? If a thousand castes that are all Indios or Mestizos can be combined into a larger group phenotypically, it would only help streamline the caste-based divisions and resulting chaos that is endemic to South Asia. The successively smaller groups of Harnizos and Castizos and Criollos will be treated as nothing more than what they are, minorities with equal respect/consideration. Criollos being the smallest and most distinct group won’t get any special favors or status, its just that they will have the most distinct phenotype. But their minuscule population should effectively be limited to the sidelines in terms of visibility, and in accordance with their small population. Changing attitudes is harder than educating people about the very real phenotype overlap that exists right in front of their eyes. One step at a time.

        1. No one is trolling. I think it just bothers you I said Hindu Jats look more like n Indian brahmins and rajputs by a mile than they do like persians and other west asians like you claim.

          No one here believes your phenotypic claims. that is literally the entire purpose of the majority of your posts. I am just disagreeing with you. You don’t like that. What you say doesn’t ring true for the livid experiences of the majority people here. Repeating it over and over again won’t change that.

          1. @thewarlock

            More cognitive dissonance and falsehoods. When you misrepresent and alter the substance of my posts in your incorrect summaries, its simply trolling. I am not here to change anyone’s minds. These posts are for uninformed readers to make sense of, and to decide whether or not South Asians are all some monolith. As far as Jats go, I’ve told you before that we can go back and forth all day regarding appearances, but it won’t change or prove anything. If you think some Jats look more similar to Harnizo and Castizo individuals, then so be it. You’re rather stubborn in your beliefs, so I will never be able to convince you to change your erroneous ways.

            My experiences in this regard are in stark contrast to yours, and really, whether or not you think the same doesn’t change reality. You also say that no one believes my claims, when many here have agreed with my views, and even Razib has said that Jats have a distinct appearance that overlaps with West Asians in many cases. West Asian appearances are the norm among the Rors/Jats I know. There is no way for me to know what kinds of Jats you’ve seen or claim to have seen, and the relative heterogeneity of the population makes it impossible to determine if you’ve only seen admixed individuals. Maybe you’re conflating Jaats/Cowherds with Rors, maybe you’ve come across mixed Jaats, or maybe you’re just making everything up for Shits and Giggles. I’m not here to waste my precious time on incorrigible people. I’m a rational individual, and irrationality and stubborn ignorance are not my style.

            Also, I’m not bothered in the slightest by your assertions. While we’re at it, why not claim that Jats look like Gujarati Vanias, as you’ve claimed to be mistaken for Jatt by others in the past? Heck, I’m all for it. Fantasies don’t have to correlate with reality, and I encourage your fantastical delusions. Until you show me a peer-reviewed paper that proves this, its nothing more than BS. BTW, I like how you tried to rationalize and reckon with the (admittedly nascent) genetic evidence that shows Jats are ~85% West Eurasian, by then claiming that 85 is closer to 75 than to 100, and thus this somehow proves that Jats are not Criollos or predominantly West Asian derived.

            Never mind the fact that Criollos themselves are classified by their “pure” appearance, one that is observed by crossing the ~80% threshold, or the fact that West Asians themselves range from 85 to 95% West Eurasian and are far from pure, thus making 85% far closer to West Asians Criollos than Castizos. I think your hamester-ing of the data illustrates who is really bothered here, and its not me. I mean, when you’re determined to fit the data to your own preconceived narrative, not even Krishna can sway you from your path. I encourage you to stick to your narratives, I don’t mind, because I know you’ll be embarrassed when you encounter a Ror in the flesh, won’t recognize them at first, and then realize just how wrong you were. I was only trying to save you some dignity. I’m far from an exception in my community, and you’ve seen my face. Until then, please believe that we all look Gujarati. #JaiShreeAmeen.

          2. @Razib

            I rather prefer a rich Mahogany, I think it brings out the contrast in skin colors. Too bad we can’t choose our wang(s). #TMI #BBClivesmatter

        2. Razib has never explicitly agreed with your phenotypic views. No one has. Do not straw man.

          We a accept that on average Jatts look the most west shifted in s asia. That being said, the degree of difference is FAR less than what you claim.

          A Jat again is more likely to pass by a long shot as a non birdari upper caste N Indian than they are a persian or West Asian.

          Absolutely no one here agrees with your claim that Jats look phenotypically West Asian. We all think they look phenotypically S Asian with a range that does overlap quite a bit with non birdari northern S Asian upper caste groups.

          The right tail of their east-west eurasian looks distribution just has more people. But the median is not shifted to the point of say Persians or even Pashtuns. Yes maybe they are racially close to pashtuns on e and w eurasian cline but phenotypes DO NOT bear that out.

          Also phenotype and genotype do not have to be super congruent? Why? Because phenotype is relatively few loci compared to whole genome and selection can sway things a decent bit. Razib has a post on this.

          You act like very Haryanvi Jat looks like Nikki Hayley does right now (not as a kid because she was pretty darn typical non birdari Northern S Asian looking as a kid but now passes better as W Asian). Not even the average looks like thatz forget everyone. A minority do. Perhaps you yourself do to some degree. Again, you want your whole group to pass that way. They just simply don’t.

          1. just go to pornhub and enter ‘jatt teen’ and all these phenotypic questions will be resolved…you get to see the WHOLE phenotype, especially areas where the sun-don’t-shine. the hole phenotype…

          2. @thewarlock

            Jats look Gujarati, dont you know? Phenotype has nothing to do with genotype. Its all based on a few loci subject to selection and randomness. Therefore, despite being as West Eurasian genetically as some West Asian populations in Iran and further West, Jatts look Gujarati. Modi himself could be a Jatt, 85% West Eurasian DNA be damned. Gujaratis represent the best of us. I, along with the rest of my family unfortunately turned out looking like some alien West Asians that fit better in Georgia. I’m sorry I dont look at home in a Patel brothers or a BAPS temple or even in the Indian community in NJ. I was just born this way. But you’re right, Jats should really accept their Gujarati identity.

          3. @Razib

            “Razib has never explicitly agreed with your phenotypic views. No one has. Do not straw man.”

            IIRC, Razib has mentioned in the past that he has seen multiple Jatts that are “White-passing” and West Asian in appearance. Of course, I dont agree with them looking “White” but I assume he was referring to them being West Asian “White.” Razib has also said that Jatts have a distinct appearance that doesnt overlap with any other South Asian community. But maybe I’m just suffering from amnesia and delusions.


            “We a accept that on average Jatts look the most west shifted in s asia. That being said, the degree of difference is FAR less than what you claim.

            A Jat again is more likely to pass by a long shot as a non birdari upper caste N Indian than they are a persian or West Asian.”

            Those two statements contradict each other and thus your argument makes no sense. Also, Jatts dont look the most West shifted or whatever. They look like West Asians with Steppe input. The other South Asians look like non-White Latinos and Hispanics. But even going by your former claim, it is impossible for people that are as you say “most west shifted” to then overlap with people that are from non-Biradri groups unless there has been additional admixture.

            “Absolutely no one here agrees with your claim that Jats look phenotypically West Asian. We all think they look phenotypically S Asian with a range that does overlap quite a bit with non birdari northern S Asian upper caste groups.”

            Plenty of people do, but that’s besides the point. Whether or not a group of strangers on some blog believes in what is evident to anyone with eyes is not my concern. But your second statement makes no sense whatsoever. Its impossible to look phenotypically South Asian when that region encompasses nearly every appearance found in the continent of Asia. As far as overlapping with Harnizos and Castizos, sure some do, because they arent pure Jatts to begin with. No surprise there.

            “The right tail of their east-west eurasian looks distribution just has more people. But the median is not shifted to the point of say Persians or even Pashtuns. Yes maybe they are racially close to pashtuns on e and w eurasian cline but phenotypes DO NOT bear that out.”

            You’re just writing more BS with a statistical twist. This is getting even more funny and insane. You’re implying that there is a range of looks within Jats proper, that overlaps with West Asians on one end, and with UP Brahmins on the other. Thats just nonsense. Why would phenotypes be progressively different as one becomes more West Eurasian, from Indio and Mestizo-looking Chamars at one end, to Castizo Brahmins, and then suddenly stop changing with Jats that have additional West Eurasian ancestry on top of what Brahmins already have? The trend stays, and Jats who are endogamous indeed look distinct from non-Biradri communities, i.e like Criollos/West Asians.

            Pashtuns are a South Asian people just like Jats. They are derived from West Asians, but they harbor ENA in the form of AASI and East Asian admixture. They also share a substantial portion of their ancestry with Jats, with the added distinction of having less IndPe/Iranic ancestry and more BMAC ancestry. In terms of phenotype, it is no surprise that many of them overlap with Jats. I do not take pleasure in overlapping with a group of people steeped in poverty and stereotyped as engaging in terrorist activities, but that’s just the way things are. And people that cluster next to each other on PCA plots and share large chunks of their ancestry can and do look very similar to each other. But the overlap Jats have is greater with regard to Persians and Iraqis/Azeris etc, as some Pashtuns have additional admixture from Pamiri Tajiks, Central Asians and others, which gives them a unique appearance distinct from Persians. But they form a minority compared to the Pashtuns that overlap with Persians and NW South Asians.

            “You act like very Haryanvi Jat looks like Nikki Hayley does right now (not as a kid because she was pretty darn typical non birdari Northern S Asian looking as a kid but now passes better as W Asian). Not even the average looks like thatz forget everyone. A minority do. Perhaps you yourself do to some degree. Again, you want your whole group to pass that way. They just simply don’t.”

            So let me get this straight, according to you, Jats like Nikki Haley (who BTW is a Sikh Jatt) look “Brown” when young, but magically transform into “West Asian” when they grow up? But other South Asians look “Brown” both as kids and as adults? Does this have something to do with how Jats look like Gujaratis and Reddys as well? Because it sounds equally absurd. Then again, I’m sure you have a trollish explanation for that as well. You’re the kind of individual that would mistake Zaha Hadid and Sheila Nazarian’s children as “Gujarati” or generic Northern Indian individuals, when the truth is, you couldn’t find any individuals that look like them in non-Biradri communities.

            And riddle me this, me simply “wanting” my group to pass as “West Asian” will somehow make Jats pass as West Asian in reality? I didnt realize simply willing for something would result in genetic changes that would then alter the phenotype of a community. If I insist that Jats look like Bill Clinton, would that then become the case? I.E Jats will start looking like Nordics? I wasn’t aware of this transmutation process. Please aware me, Doctor Saab.

            Do you see me suggesting that Rors look like Irish or German people, or even the Russians and Italians and Arabs? No, because I would never make claims that dont have any bearing on reality. Nor do I want to associate our appearances with people that are obviously distinct from us. It would make a mockery of both the Jatt and the other group’s identities, and make me seem like a raving maniac or lunatic that has no bearing on reality. The claims I make are based on real anecdotal experiences, and also make sense given the West Eurasian ancestry of Jats/Rors and the very real phenotypes that Jatts in India possess. You are free to verify this for yourself. But I understand you think Jatts look “South Asian” and Gujarati, so this whole discussion is just pointless. This reply is more intended to highlight the logical inconsistencies and mistakes in your argument for the benefit of other readers that are interested in learning about South Asian diversity. But feel free to promulgate more BS.

  27. A lot of ApThK shtick seems reminds me of my community (Chitpavan Brahmins) in 90s 2000s , where it seemed lot them (Us I must say ) wanted to be Outsiders – Be it Lost Jews/ Shipwreaked Greeks or Invading Arabs to got Aryanized. But then DNA results spoiled those Shticks. But phenotypical differences are still non trivial but not like from outside India.

    1. @Mr. Lele

      Mrs. Govitrikar was a childhood crush of mine. Still remember when, during one of many summers vacationing in the NCR area as a child, I saw her in that legendary Coca-Cola ad with Mr. Roshan. BTW, Kobras aren’t exactly all that different from Harnizos. In fact, the archetype of the Chitpavan is your classic LatAm Harnizo/Harniza. Madhuri, another one of my pre-teen infatuations, is an excellent example of this; her husband, Dr. Sriram Nene also serves as the perfect example. Both are Harnizos par excellence. So you are wrong to insinuate that they don’t pass outside of India. There are, in fact, many Latin Americas that look identical to them. And just to be clear, this isn’t a “shtick”, but a solid, well-reasoned theory I’ve constructed, based upon actual factual observations I’ve made/read, distilled from my extensive anecdotal experiences and associated readings from the literature.

      1. I have literally never hear any of my Latino friends use these colonial racial terms. You know some strange people man. And I’ve lived for decent periods of time in some of places you’ve described and was in the Bronx near a pretty big Puerto Rican community.

        Chitpavans are a fun case of inbreds. All of India is. But int heir case they get colored eyes that people go gaga over. Anything to be more euro, right babe? 10 points to the House that gets that reference.

        1. @Doctor Saab

          Your experiences dont hold any more weight than mine do. (At least when it comes to trivial BS about racial phenotypes. Your MD gives you more authority in the areas that really matter) But just to explain further: diaspora Latinos aren’t truly representative of those in their native countries in Latin America. This is even moreso the case with many second and third-generation LatAms that have been living in the US for a while. And my purported classification system for South Asia reflects this usage in parallel to its prevalence in Latin America, not the U.S.

          But even despite this fact, many satellite communities of LatAms in the U.S that come from those countries in the Latin world where White Latinos have a rather significant population and cachet, tend to use all sorts of such terms to distinguish phenotypes and racial ancestry. Brazil, Argentina, Venezuela and Cuba are excellent examples of such countries. You should spend more time with White Latinos from these countries, particularly those that look like Gloria Estefan, Lele Pons, Cameron Diaz, and Andy Garcia, and you’ll understand exactly what I mean.

        2. Yup; I personally am not a fan of Grey/Green eyes I prefer Brown/Black;
          PS: I don’t have any stereotypical Chitpavan features I guess I can easily pass of as any random wheahtish MH guy though my ancestry is as inbred as any Chitpavan’s.

          Anything to be more euro, right babe?
          In my experience there is more fascination with being perceived as Semitic than European- Hence the we are lost Jews shtick .

          And just to be clear, this isn’t a “shtick”, but a solid, well-reasoned theory I’ve constructed, based upon actual factual observations I’ve made/read, distilled from my extensive anecdotal experiences and associated readings from the literature.
          Yeah not comparable to the Kobra shtick i must say

    2. None wanted to be Serbian speaking horseriders? Interesting. Maybe this is a reason of, on average, mild disappointment watching the truth is coming out. I guess much more attractive proposition would be, if not Yanks than, at least, some long time ago passing aliens who disappeared immediately after Kurukshetra war 7000 years ago.

  28. Latin America is very ‘colorist’, just like South Asia is. If you doubt that, take a look at their telenovelas. It’s not representative of all peoples living in their countries, especially in the lower (and often darker) classes. Inequality is often tied up with race and inequality is huge.

    That said, one should be careful with mixing the Latino diaspora with the natives in LatAm. The diaspora, especially in the US, go through a very substantial socialisation process. Just like many Hindus in the US, especially the 2nd gen. How many ABCDs are as obsessed by color as many native Indians are?

    In general, I find it somewhat amusing how the JQ (Jatt Question) keeps rearing its head on this blog.

    1. @principia

      I concur with your assessment. Going back to my characterization of South Asian ethnic groups using a LatAm framework, notice how all the South Asians in this beach party in Goa look like your generic group of non-White Latinos and Hispanics:

      This might as well be a party being held in Copacabana or Ipanema. Just without all of the good food and Russian floozies.

  29. India: A song of Steppe and Jungle

    Roses are red
    Dalits are blue

    O pure brahmin harnizo
    Jatts are whiter than you

    1. Jatts are not White. Period. They are West-Asian/Steppe derived NW South Asians. Their appearances overlap with people living in West Asia, but these people they overlap with are not really “White” in the true sense of the term. I don’t see how Ahmadinejad is White. Or Saddam Hussein. Or even Erdogan. These people have a unique West Asian identity. Even many Georgians and Azeris have a distinct appearance that doesnt overlap with most Europeans.

      White for me is a term reserved for the bulk of Europeans. Its pathetic that in the US everyone from Egypt to Sudan to Iran is considered “White” when the reality is completely different. The only reason NW South Asians even mark “White” on these stupid census forms is because of the aforementioned idiotic US policy of grouping West Asians and West Asian-derived folks into the “White” club. It makes no sense, but if Persians are marking “White”, NW South Asians do the same because of overlap in appearance and shared ancestry. It doesn’t make any of them White however. They have their own distinct identities.

      BTW, ALL South Asians, including All Indians, were classified as “White” by the US Census bureau back in 1970, and this stayed that way until around 1980 or so, when Gujarati Businessmen, looking for low-interest SBA loans, petitioned the US government to have their racial classification changed to “Asian” for minority status, as it would then be easier to get the loans. This is why Indians now mark “Asian” — I think it is far better to choose this term, than to pick “White” — but in my honest opinion, South Asians should really be classified as Latinos/Hispanic, as they are a mix of West and East Eurasian to different degrees. A small minority would fall into the “White” Latino group, (still not ideal, as West Asians are not White as in European) while most would be non-White Latino. Some would actually be better served identifying as Asian, like NE Indians and Nepalis and Burmese, and a huge group of Afghans (Hazaras, Uzbeks, most admixed Tajiks, etc). Either way, the default classification is incorrect. Thank god we can self-identify, that give us some dignity in choosing our identity. But it is still inadequate.

      1. I should have been more specific. The paper in conclusion talks about:

        “In this paper we have presented the earliest direct evidence of dairy product processing in South Asia. …our findings suggest that dairy was an integral part of the everyday diet of its residents; this dairy was explicitly acquired from cattle and possibly water-buffalo.”

        So essentially processed dairy products can mean: yogurt, butter, buttermilk etc. They need not have been lactose tolerant?

    1. Yeah the paper mentions dairy “processed products” and does not talk about lactose tolerance as such.

      Just wondering, can lactose tolerance act as proxy for r1a1/steppe genes?

    1. French have eben saying for the last few years Islamism is the enemy within France and they are not going to compromise on that. It looks like macron is considering advocating Sharia , from the media or the mosque , illegal. This is in contrast to the UK, where sharia enthusiasts are appeased to the maximum. Bravo Macron keep it up

      1. Radical islamist sympathizers own London. Priti Patel is the last hope. She needs to become PM to clean up the streets, especially of rape gangs


    The Indian government is pushing a bold proposal that would make scholarly literature accessible for free to everyone in the country. The government wants to negotiate with the world’s biggest scientific publishers to set up nationwide subscriptions, rather than many agreements with individual institutions that only scholars can use, say researchers consulting for the government.

    Based Modiji.

  31. Not an expert, but it seems clear that future of war not involving any western power directly would be drones. Azeri drones are to Armenian armor what Babur’s cannons were to Indian Elephants. The age of tank warfare in contested airspace just came to a close. Now people have to figure out how to make thrusts without armor.
    You guys should check out the aerial footages of how helpless Armenian tanks look in their final moments before being kaputz.
    Also worrying is the fate of India’s vast inventory of armor, hopefully someone is taking note, in war it will all go up in flames.

      1. btw if a drone is fully autonomous i.e. inbuilt terrain maps/CV for collision avoidance, and IMU for navigation (i.e. can operate in GPS denied environment) and ML-based target recognition what can the EW possibly do?

  32. And lol why are you bringing up BAPs temple, Patels, NJ? Lol stay on topic. You are doing a an awkward song and dance of strawman, ad hominem, and scattered thinking. You look like a bunch of Georgians? So what lol. this convo is about group level comparatives.
    You are running to other points and meaningless insults because you have no counter.

    1. @thewarlock

      What’s wrong with BAPS temples? They are some of the most beautiful works of architecture I have had the pleasure of seeing. I particularly like Akshardham in New Delhi (I’ve visited, and strangely enough cherished the boat ride that was reminiscent of a Desi version of “Its A Small World” at Disney World.) The one in Robbinsville (?), NJ is also quite the spectacle. I love intricate stone work, and frankly, Gujaratis have outdone themselves with the level of detail on those structures, puts Gothic art to shame. I also like the BAPS havelis, intricate wood carvings that are absolutely spellbinding. I have also befriended many Gujaratis that follow the Swaminarayan faith, and I find certain aspects of it endearing. I only bring them up because >50% of the Gujaratis in my circle adhere to the BAPS faith/group. And having visited some of the community events held at these temples, I can confidently say that I stood out like a sore thumb (but again, that was just in my head, I am a Patel after all)

      As far as the other references, they are also indicative of the success of Gujaratis as a community in the business world. Why is this so offensive for you? You could say the same thing for Jats and their farms or Jats and Dhabas/Hotels/Restaurant empires, and I wouldn’t mind. Certain stereotypes are true for a reason. And in this case, these stereotypes are all positive and attributable in particular to Gujaratis in the diaspora. I see nothing wrong in using them as an illustrative point. I will also say that I am familiar with the spectra of Gujarati phenos, from Indio/Tribal looking to Castizo-looking Ismailis and Brahmins. I didnt see any Criollos, but as you rightly state, that doesn’t matter, because Jats are Gujaratis anyway. I could be Modi’s own brother. Zaha Hadid could be Hetal Patel or Chakku Desai. Sheila Nazarian’s daughter could be Meeta Patel, and Modi’s own daughter. #JaiShreeKrishna.

    1. @Razib

      I notice you alluded to Phub. Keeping with the theme, someone that actually passes as a Jatt is (warning: NSFW) Sensual Jane. She has that famous Jatt bosom as well.

      Amisha Patel doesn’t pass, but if she makes good Dhoklas, I might just give in to her charms. We’ll have Gujju Brahmin babies that look like Michael Phelp’s former Gujju Girlfriend who was a Desai IIRC. Who am I to be more picky than the god of swimming?

  33. My statements do not contradict. You are confused or just pretending to be so you don’t have to engage. Let me simplify it for you. Because you aren’t getting the nuance. Let’s say there is a phenotype scale. 0 is W Eurasian. 100 is east Eurasian.

    Persians will be say range from 0-25.

    Haryana Jats can range from 20-50.

    Sikh Jats 25-55

    N Indian Brahmins range from 30-60.

    Rajputs 35-70.

    Vaishya 40-75.

    Now you see how Jats can be the most West shifted yet still share more overlap with Northern non birdari upper caste S Asians than with Persians.

    Does your mind now process the point I am making?

    1. @thewarlock

      Honestly the “mental rigor” required for me to process that nonsensical and mysterious post is too much for me to muster, despite my 525. What can I say? My Jatt brain fails me, Doctor Saab. Pray for me, so that I can pass my STEPS and match somewhere decent. I don’t want to be a farmer like my brethren. BTW, I agree with you, Jats look like Narendra Modi’s family. We are Gujaratis with more Steppe and Iranic ancestry. Its just that Gujarati phenos are dominant, and so we all ended up looking like Jinnah and Gandhi. Even Sheila Nazarian’s kids and Zaha Hadid have this problem. Gujju traders spread far and wide and planted their seeds everywhere. The “randomness” of phenotype due to selection and the alleles involved are to blame. What can I say? We are all Patels in disguise. #JaiShreeAmeen

      1. Very predictable response. You create a diversion, when you don’t want to engage and try to distract with nonsense. You clearly have no argument and either are purposely feigning ignorance and putting up distractions so as to not have to engage OR are too stupid to understand mine. I don’t know which is sadder.

        I am glad you have adopted catch phrase, and I have reduced you once again to frustrated ad hominem. The whispering is working. Maybe this time you’ll come out even better.

  34. Honestly, I don’t mind having my identity played with by Gujarati behns. I know of Parsis with the surname Patel, and they are Gujarati after all, so I don’t see why Jatts can’t be Gujaratis. Hell, I’ll change my surname to Patel. I am also a Patidar after all, in a way they were pretty much landowners and village heads. I like Gujarati people and cuisine, and since they are hell bent on assimilating Jats, we might as well hijack their identity before they do it to us. Farrokh is in good company. Modi, Vallabhbhai, Gandhi, Ambani, the list of titans of industry and statesmen is endless. Even Good ol’ Ben Kingsley, who looks like a Jatt, played the most famous Gujarati of all time. Jinnah was Gujarati too. In a way, the story of Gujarat is the story of India. And Jats and Gujjus are bros. #JaiShreeKrishna

  35. If you don’t understand the above, your mind just lacks the sufficient mental rigor. I cannot help you further.

    Again straw man won’t win. Razib never has accepted Jats look West Asian phenotypically on average on this blog. Not one person. We all agree SOME individuals can, a minority. You are among them. But you want to pass the whole group off that way. And forget the whole group,not even the median passes that way.

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