177 thoughts on “Open Thread – 06/26/2021”

  1. Aarti Tikoo, a Kashimiri Hindu whose family was displaced, has strong words for the Modi govt as they are backpedalling on Kashmir. Essentially returning to a failed previous policy of meeting with islamists and soft seperatists. The cancellation of 370 and the re-integration of Kashmir is now slowly being abandoned and it’s the legacy of families like Tikoo’s which is being buried and betrayed.

    Arun Shourie was right: BJP is nothing but Congress + Cow.

    1. Obviously Biden and Harris.

      Once a symbolic offering has been made, back to the new normal.

      Whatever his other faults, Modi has solved Kashmir. He is 80% Patel and 20% Nehru where as Vajpayee was 20% Patel and 80% Nehru. BJP is S V B Patel ji’s Congress.

      Now is the time to shift goalposts, make Afghanistan the new Kashmir.

      1. Re Afghanistan I just mean in terms of doing ‘kadi ninda’ and other BS to keep Pakistanis busy and waste time, not some convoluted geostrategy.

          1. I think India’s influence as well as the importance of Afghanistan (for India) were over hyped. Perhaps we started believing it ourselves. With Iran-US tensions, India had to choose one side over other, and without Iran , Afghanistan-India was dead in water. Though even when the going was good , i was skeptical of financial benefits of central Asian pipelines and trade.

            Be that as it may, India’s best bet is a sort of power shared Afghanistan, which in my view still achievable, and perhaps be the final settlement.

          2. eventually the northern alliance will be resurrected in some form, this time americans also supporting it. i feel americans could have hived off a non pastun area in the north like the kurdistan in iraq. this would have been sensible. british would have done this, based on their experience!!!

    1. Too many things that can go wrong. But good effort. Another effort like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF4XFVwuI_E&t=144s

      Jugaad + aviation = tragedy.

      I have never dabbled with ICEs but the general idea is that aircrat ICEs (think Rotax or Lycoming) can produce high power for a long time without overheating. Also 20hp is measly, with a home made propeller even the conversion would not be efficient.

      1. Do these light planes have much of a future with electric aerial mobility coming up in a big way and probably hydrogen in a decade or two?

        1. Not these ones. India just does not have the ecosystem for aviation. Forget Western Europe, North America and Russia even places like Chech Republic and South Africa have it better.

          In VTOL the champion is Joby which has been valued at $6.5 Billion USD. Other big ones include Lilium and Volocopter from Germany, Ehang from China/Singapore and Airbus. There are tens of similar companies mostly in the US.

          In passenger airliner space there is Heart Aerospace from Sweden who are making a big ass plane and Eviation from Israel.

          In puny normal electric airplanes there are many but Pipistrel from Slovenia is the first mover. In making electric motors for aircraft MagniX has lead but Siemens and Safran are getting into electric aircraft motors and they are beasts I would not mess with.

          India’s only serious hope in GA was Gippsland Aero of Mahindra. We have eplane.ai and ubifly from India which are making electric VTOL planes. Maybe they can pull something off.

          1. India just does not have the ecosystem for aviation.

            What will it take to evolve such an ecosystem?
            Seems to me that a lot of the pioneering work in aviation has been done by hobbyists or small boostrapped startups going back to the invention of the airplane.
            Even the different kinds of jet-packs that are now coming up by the likes of Gravity or Zapata started off as hobby projects.

            We have eplane.ai and ubifly from India which are making electric VTOL planes.
            I think eplane and ubifly are the same. I know the eplane founder. They have an interesting plan. Let’s see if they can execute. It’s going to get real competitive real fast. Indian government is going to be found sleeping again as far as regulations and incentives are concerned.

            Do they use it as fuel for turbojets or in fuel cells? Hydrogen+ planes reminds me of Hindenburg.
            Hydrogen is much safer now than back then. Check out the company Universal Hydrogen.

            Btw Motabhai announced a large green hydrogen plant in the Reliance AGM last week.
            The Indian government is pretty keen to get in on green hydrogen early. They missed the bus on lithium by a long margin and are having to play catch-up. So pre-empting this one. But it’s very dependent on being able to maintain the cheap solar rates that we have now, that is in turn dependent on cheap imports of PV cells from China.
            Becoming energy independent is hard.

          2. Small aircraft companies tend to be centered around one crazy guy. Think Luigi Pascale of Partenavia and Tecnam, Ivo Boscarlo of Pipistrel, Sling from South Africa, Bob Barrows of Bearhawk, Chris Heintz of Zenith and many many more. Usually when companies end up in corporate hands fuck-ups happen.

            Indians being a darponk people do not produce such eccentrics in large numbers. People who love flying and would not do anything to else even for money. Also our general level of engineering competence is pathetic, try remembering about the last time anyone near you got a CNC milled part fabricated or even fixed their own car or motorcycle. Our mean value is low and that drags the 3sigma tails down where the action really happens. Aviation is costly and Indians don’t have money.

            On top level I think Americans and the French have love of aviation in their hearts and minds. They see the beauty in it over the utility. France has spent >USD 100 billion on Rafales. For comparison India has spent less than 3 Billion combined on all Tejas related activities including the jet engine.

            Others like Brazil, China, Russia, Canada do it because what else to do? And they have big countries.

            We are too far behind, don’t have the engineers to put things together, don’t have users who can give feedback, don’t have expertise in making components. General aviation is a a lawsuit heavy field with low volumes so I don’t think we will ever make it. Indian armed forces could have announced in advance that they were going to buy $20 million worth of 200 LSAs a few years ago and asked domestic companies to design something. When people do things they learn. But Indian defence people being the tooti-angregi, self absorbed, mig-21 shot down flying aces they are just don’t see it. They want big systems first.

          3. On jetpacks like Gravity and Zapata I am sure a tender will come 20 years from now from IA asking for a system to be delivered within 5 months on ’emergency’ basis. These IA acquisition fuckers are so stupid. They wasted a decade dillydallying on Tata Kestrel and now will buy some Russian light tank. IAF flies maybe 7 separate fighters!! Armed forces leadership are the most over-rated people in India, closely followed by our judiciary.

            I am sure USAF is paying Joby below the table. Ubifly should be supported aggressively by Indian government, there is definitely a market in offshore resupply. Maybe with electric propulsion there will be no thin-air problems that come with jets operating at higher altitude.

            Hydrogen plan seems like a very good step. Much bigger than aviation. Fingers crossed.

        2. Being from batti background I don’t know much about hydrogen powered planes. Do they use it as fuel for turbojets or in fuel cells? Hydrogen+ planes reminds me of Hindenburg.

  2. Why has Pakistan failed to extend its influence into the central asian -stan countries ?

    Sees like an alliance / special trade zone of sorts would benefit everyone.

    1. Not enough time passed after the fall of Soviet Union when 9/11 happened so those plans were shelved. I think that is eventually the long term goal of the Pakistani establishment, but Afghanistan needs to be stabilized first before dabbling with Central Asia.

    2. “Why has Pakistan failed to extend its influence into the central asian -stan countries ?”

      Relations with Iran have been complicated by Iran being Shia, as well as Pakistan’s close relationship with Saudi Arabia and the United States.

      Relations with Afghanistan have been complicated by the porous border that many in Afghanistan dispute, as well as Afghanistan being very underdeveloped due to the constant wars, terrorism, and all sorts of conflicts.

  3. I’d like to know about some not so well known or hidden gems when it comes to travel and culture around the subcontinent that some of the contributors here may like to share – it could be their home towns or places they visited and think more people should know about.

    I’ll start with the Gajapati district of Odisha – the eastern ghats there are largely untouched and while the tourist infrastructure isn’t great, there are some good forest homestays. The tribals are surprisingly friendly and welcome you into their homes easily and readily share their food and locally made mohuli drink that is sweet and intoxicating. There’s a small Tibetan settlement in Jiranga and a large Padmasambhava monastery that wouldn’t look out of place in Sikkim, surrounded as it is by green hills all around. A really underrated state that I hope more people get to know beyond the Puri-Konark belt.

  4. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2021/6/25/taliban-gains-drive-afghan-government-to-recruit-militias

    They are trying to pull a Mexico, arming the local farmers against the cartels. Worked a bit here and there but the cartels still grow stronger. There have been reports of dead former Pak soldiers among the Taliban and retired commanders. In some ways, this is a war between Afghanistan and quasi proxy of Pak. The proxy has rogue tendencies though…

  5. I watched the blog. The comments about PPP and nominal per capita were rather reductionist, I say!! Long form explanations aren’t grounds for disqualification, maybe to disinterested outsiders – yes – but to a good student – it will reveal layers. Kind of like not knowing the difference between autosomal, Y and mtDNA.

    If I measured the temperature of everyday objects separately in different units – Kelvin and Celsius and Fahrenheit – and displayed the results to observers – the novices in the crowd might be inclined to think one of the objects is much much hotter than the rest. @principia, pay attention!

    So, there is only one country in the world whose nominal GDP per capita and PPP are exactly same – that is the US. If we measured world GDP in rupees or taka – we would have different numbers and different variances between the countries.

    Now here is the kicker – if we did measure nominal GDP in rupees, India’s would be higher than BD. If we did the same with taka, India would still be ahead. Or for that matter, any other currency – Euro, Yen or Pesos.

    With dollars, it inverts because BD has invested an exceptionally high proportion of its economy in providing exports to the US. Real world implication is that almost all of BD’s foreign exchange is traded with the US.

    We use a infrared theromometer to measure but the device is only showing the skin temperature. If you are grilling steaks and measuring with the help of a IR Gun – then they WILL come out undercooked. The skin is way hotter than the internals.

    The BD economy has several components – only one of them (textiles) presents an high value to the nominal GDP (dollar) tool while the rest are way cooler, underperforming or lagging.

    Broad spectrum data proves this in every field you can think of. Very simple example – BD does not yet have a single km of an operational urban rail metro system. Pakistan has 27 kms, India has 760 kms and China has 6100 kms.

    This is not to nitpick – but BD planners have been self-aware of this extreme dependence for quite some. In 2013, they proposed a common currency for South Asia – which will benefit them in monetary terms.


    The real question – was the intensive textile focus an outcome of multi-generational factors or a planned outcome? I think it was the former – the Bengal region was always famous for textile exports right from the 18th century. But they were linked to the Indian hinterland and were much more economically robust. Now they have separated from Pakistan and are now back to focussing on their core competence. But they will have to integrate on other levels at some point!

    Which is why I am reasonably confident that a Bangladesh – India Union (monetary first, political later) will happen in the coming decades. Failure to do so will accelerate their inclusion into the single sector political-economies – Arab (Oil), Malaysia (Palm Oil), Maldives (Tourism) etc.

    The Brown People need to prepare for Akhand Bharat!

    1. 1) you use ‘reducitionist’ like the midwit you are

      2) you shouldn’t make an analogy to DNA. you don’t know much about it and routinely fuck shit up

  6. Indian Bar Association Sues WHO for Lying About Ivermectin and Killing Indians — Will Fauci and CDC Be Next?

    The Indian Bar Association (IBA) sued WHO Chief Scientist Dr. Soumya Swaminathan on May 25, accusing her in a 71-point brief of causing the deaths of Indian citizens by misleading them about Ivermectin. There is also an updated legal notice on June 13, 2021.

    Point 56 states, “That your misleading tweet on May 10, 2021, against the use of Ivermectin had the effect of the State of Tamil Nadu withdrawing Ivermectin from the protocol on May 11, 2021, just a day after the Tamil Nadu government had indicated the same for the treatment of COVID-19 patients.”

    If a trial in India finds WHO Chief Scientist Dr. Soumya Swaminathan guilty then the WHO Scientist could be sentenced to death or life in prison. Dr Soumya Swaminathan would have be charged with the threatened criminal prosecution and be found guilty on one of the those charges.

    The Government of Tamil Nadu has published new treatment protocols for COVID-19 patients that leaves out the use of ivermectin, which had been included in a previous version. The new protocols describe three categories of COVID-19 patients based on the level of care they need: home-based, primary care and pre-hospital care. It leaves hospital care out. The tests to determine the category to which a patient belongs are oxygen saturation (SpO2) and respiratory rate.


    1. It’s stupidity and a publicity stunt. India has no locus standi. The Irrational and stupid arguements made by Indians regarding India being head of Executive council is frivolous. India doesn’t fund WHO at all. Be there as it may, outrage by Indians on this matter makes no sense. WHO is a body which receives maximum funds from Bill and Melinda Gates foundation, Germany and European nations. They represent interests primarily of the United States, European Nations like Germany United Kingdom and France. IBA will not succeed though my best wishes with them

  7. To go back to a different topic. During the brief war between Azerbaijan and Armenia and the Azeris used drones to destroy Armenian forces and defenses. Azeris were assisted by Turkey’s armed drones. Turkey also used these drones against Syrian forces near its border.

    What is really curious is that is the conflict in the Galwan heights just a year back, China did not use any such tools despite having some of the best drone manufacturing companies and technology in the world. I have heard some reports say that this was because these resources were all focused on the Taiwan straights. Apparently, only now is China upgrading its military resources in the Xinjiang Military Region – this includes Ladakh – to also be able to bring to bear drones and related technologies.

    But to me it is like the mystery of “the dog that did not bark”. There could be many reasons for this:
    1. China may have believed that it could teach India a lesson without needing to deploy these technologies. Perhaps a miscalculation on the Chinese side.
    2. Perhaps it does take a long time to integrate these tools and technologies into military C3I systems, and this deployment would have been observed by Indian and Western satellites/intelligence.
    3. Third and most likely is that China did not wish to show its hand in terms of tools and techniques that it has been perfecting to bring Taiwan back under its military control. A demonstration of these technologies would have given the real adversary – the US – an opportunity to analyze and learn, and hence successfully obstruct the effectiveness of these technologies. So from a Chinese perspective, a small price to pay for pulling in its claws.

    But the next conflict on the India-China border is likely to be a very different affair if China does indeed succeed in catching India napping with drone warfare.

    1. india does spring a surprise to the opposite side as seen in recent conflicts. use of ” tanks” in the kashmir war of ’48, achieving surrender of pak forces in ’71, use of airforce in kargil, capture of heights in pangon so after being on the receiving end. so they don’t strictly play by the text book.
      i feel chinese will be surprised in the next conflict.

    2. india does spring a surprise to the opposite side as seen in recent conflicts. use of ” tanks” in the kashmir war of ’48, achieving surrender of pak forces in ’71, use of airforce in kargil, capture of heights in pangon so after being on the receiving end. so they don’t strictly play by the text book.
      i feel chinese will be surprised in the next conflict.

  8. @Bhimrao


    How would you rate this company. The founder is french (Kalki Koechlin’s father) so it supports what you said about different country’s cultures and aviation.

    1. He sold it to some Indian many years ago.

      They have fabric covered tubular construction with what seems like a non-aerospace grade fabric. Their designs look dated, I am not an Aerospace engineer but to my untrained eyes Carbon>>fabric-tubular, especially on non-bush plane applications.

      Like I said, Gippsland was our only hope and it has died. India does not have the appetite for small airplanes. There are plenty of old Cessnas and Pipers for the flight schools. I have never met an Indian who owns a small airplane, there was this grad student I knew in the US who was building his own.

      IAF+IA had ordered 100s of aircrafts in early 2000s and mid 2010s for NCC and casual flying. Zenith won in early 2000s and Pipistrel won in mid 2010s, massive missed opportunities for make in India. If we don’t make small airplanes and try a bunch of configurations, face failures and learn how are we ever going to build bigger ones? but the fools at IAF prancing around as experts want to leapfrog and always land on their face.

      Parriker showed his engineering prowess when he forced these assholes to buy HTT 40 over imported Pilatus. I can’t understand how can they expect to build jets without ever making simpler planes?

      1. …If we don’t make small airplanes and try a bunch of configurations, face failures and learn how are we ever going to build bigger ones?…

        From a engineering and manufacturability perspective, this is not correct. Crafts operating in the lower flying regimes are completely unlike the ones that are operating in the higher regimes.

        Helicopters are a ton more complex than anything in the air. And we have better products than MBB or any other Euro giant.

        We also made rapid strides in jet aircraft because we have a customer (IAF) willing to buy the asset and spend a ton of money in lifetime maintenance over 40 years.

        For the same reason, we have not built any small aircraft because there is no established customer base who are willing to pre-order (remember the small aircraft market is always build-to-order, not sell-from-stock).

        How I wish that Sanjay Gandhi did not die in his Pitts-S2A on June 23, 1980…the only to kickstart private flying is to make the elites catch the bug. And Sanjay was doing a fine job of it – this man not only kickstarted passenger car manufacturing in India but also came close to getting rich Indians to take to the skies at a plane’s controls.


        1. “From a engineering and manufacturability perspective, this is not correct.”
          I disagree. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI3FsHMVEec
          This guy would make a far better aerospace engineer than khayali pulaavs people making jets at NAL. Having experience building Marutis translates well into building RRs or Bentleys.

          “Crafts operating in the lower flying regimes are completely unlike the ones that are operating in the higher regimes.”

          So what? skills from small aircraft manufacturing like working with sheet metal, doing design-trades translate over very well, look at Taneja Aerospace in India. Also tell this to Scaled Composites or Diamond Aircraft or Grob Aircraft or Pilatus, they will have a big laugh. All of them started from humble piston engine designs, played with crazy designs and now manufacture great aircrafts. I can name many others.

          “And we have better products than MBB or any other Euro giant.”
          This is pure fantasy. Dhruv was designed by MBB, we are >30 years behind Euros, Where is our 175, our Super Puma our Dauphin?

          HAL could not even fix spin issues on Sitara and had to bring in British and American consultants, the construction quality is so poor that the canopy blew off one of them on take-off, HAL Dhruv had water leaks into cockpit during rains.

          HAL Dhruv crashes more than once every year!

          1. Among the aerospace giants of Asia, India is in the top 3 along with Russia and China. In fact, for the top 100 global aerospace companies ranked by revenue – India has a company in the 40s – which outranks countries like Japan, South Korea and Israel. Acutally Rafael outranks HAL, but Rafael is purely a munitions and electronics maker – not a builder of aircraft.

            Again there is no connection between piston-engined/glider/low regime aircraft and aviation success – the facts deny the reality you are painting.

            I would like Indian companies in that light category to excel – but they have no organic connection to move up the ladder. HAL proves it paradoxically!

            MBB were asked to carry out a consultancy project for the gearbox and anti-resonance damping. They failed at the second. The anti-resonance damping tech is entirely HAL’s jewel in the crown and…..the HAL Mk4 looks nothing like the MK1.

            The F22 crashes every year, the F35 crashes every year, Apaches crash exceedingly frequently…..whats your point? Is it your expectation? – that a competence indicator is that the aircraft never crashes 🙂 That was an Aaj Tak viewer level comment!!

            The Indian aerospace technological complex is trailing Russia and China within the Asian sphere but they are considerably ahead of Japan, SoKo or Israel. The reality is nuanced.

          2. “Again there is no connection between piston-engined/glider/low regime aircraft and aviation success – the facts deny the reality you are painting.”

            What facts deny it? I just gave clear examples of transition from piston to jets in Diamond Aircraft and others.

            Your argument is this – ‘HAL is a big company therefore our Aerospace industry is better than Japan!’ What are you talking about? Japan designed and makes Mitsubishi Space Jet, Kawasaki P-1, Kawasaki C-2, Shinmawya US-2s…

            Just because HAL has a captive customer does not mean it is superior. I will believe in HAL’s greatness when anyone other than India starts buying their things. Also, ADA designs the Tejas, HAL uses jugaad, plywood jigs to make them.

            Indian government had ordered well over 300 LSAs in last 2 decades. That is more than enough to kick start domestic players. If we had a private champion they might have grown into a competition to atrocities like NAL’s (actually Myasishchev) Saras and 10 million USD a pop!! HAL(actually Ruag) Do 228s. If so many private companies in Czech Republic can do it why can’t we?

          3. @Bhimrao

            Design, testing, manufacture and induction of 4th generation jets and helicopters is the peak of aerospace prowess. This is also the reason why these aircraft per piece are more costlier than gliders, piston engined and light aircraft.

            I am using the standard accepted financial analysis to compare sizes of companies. Both Flight Global and James have ranked aerospace companies using the same.

            Just humor me – how does everyone agree that Reliance is as big a company as Dupont? Financial metrics and ratios.

            Your metric of “I will believe if….” is self serving. That’s not a good comparison for the defence industry. In fact, the American Defense Act prohibits acquisition of arms from foreign suppliers. So it’s the same for a lot of nations.

            Again your comments on HAL manufacturing are widely off the mark. The IAF is a very exacting customer and a premier organisation in Asia – they have way more modern battle experience than the Japanese or the Chinese.

          4. Let us have it your way:


            IHI, Kawasaki, Panasonic Avionics and Mitsubishi are Japanese

            Hanhwa, KAI and Korea Air are Korean.

            where are your numbers?

            These are numbers for aerospace businesses. Also, note that just like these guys HAL too makes avionics, aero structures, jet engines etc.

          5. @Bhimrao

            Yes that’s a good start! HAL ranks no 37 in the list for 2019 and that was before the 83 Tejas Mk1a FOC build was signed.

            Mitsubishi – includes revenue for shipbuilding, air-conditioning, tanks, construction equipment and space launch vehicles. So not an apple to apple comparison. Still a worthy contender – good business jets and a new 5th gen aircraft (X2) in pipeline. No 4th gen plane in portfolio currently!

            Panasonic – makes inflight avionics and entertainment. Not really aerospace core!

            Hanwa Aerospace – gas turbine manufacturer for business jets – but again no major builder.

            HAL is the only solid major specialising in raw materials to final aircraft assembly. Mitsubishi is the only true contender and they have all sorts of businesses – even space launch. Add ISRO’s assets to HAL and you will have a giant.

          6. “Mitsubishi – includes revenue for shipbuilding, air-conditioning, tanks, construction equipment and space launch vehicles.”

            No it does not. Mitsubishi’s overall revenue is in the tune of 25 Billion USD, not the 6.5 billion listed here. Same for Kawasaki and others.

            “So not an apple to apple comparison. Still a worthy contender – good business jets and a new 5th gen aircraft (X2) in pipeline. No 4th gen plane in portfolio currently!”

            Technically F-2 is ‘based on’ F-16. Also there was the indigenous F-1 which can be called 4th gen if people insist on calling our western designed HAL built Jaguars 4th gen.

            You are missing IHI and Kawasaki!!

            Hanwa Aerospace – gas turbine manufacturer for business jets – but again no major builder.

            HAL too assembles(builds?) western designed engines.

            HAL is the only solid major specialising in raw materials to final aircraft assembly. Mitsubishi is the only true contender and they have all sorts of businesses – even space launch.

            No there is KAI+Hanhwa, and there is IHI+Kawasaki too.

            Add ISRO’s assets to HAL and you will have a giant.
            Add it and revenues still won’t go up by much.

          7. Mitsubishi, IHI, Hanwa, Kawasaki, KAI – all of them do not have a 4th gen+ aircraft in their portfolio – by which I mean composite, quadruplex fbw driven, glass cockpit enabled craft. They have a trainer and F15/F16 license production from LM/Boeing. They do bits and pieces. Only Russia, China and India do this.

            Japan, SoKo and Israel are all US allies and the Master keeps them under tight control – lest they develop their own capabilities. Tejas is in a different class.

  9. @Razib, you can start with Richard Eaton’s book of “India in Persianate Age” for leftist propaganda and Islamist view. RC Majumdar for Centrist view and Sitaram Goyal on Hindu’s view.

  10. For Mughal resources, I’ve used the following books: “India Before Europe,” “Islamic Gunpowder Empires,” “Akbar: The Great Mughal,” “The Mughal Throne,” “The Last Mughal,” and “The Empire of the Great Mughals” (by Annemarie Schimmel). All are available in the US mostly through Amazon, and I’ve used them all extensively for my own research. I found the first two, India before Europe and Islamic Gunpowder Empires especially interesting for their comparative perspective.

  11. This “Wounded Civilization” narrative is destined to Fail. Modi thumps his chest about Indigenous Pride but in the end he still wears victimhood on his sleeves with that “1200 years of Slavery” Cuck Mindset.

    1. A corollary is the “indians can finally hold their heads up with pride” narrative which is more reflective of the complexes these people carry. What sort of person was previously ashamed and predicated their love of country on global prestige?

    2. You cannot overcome the past, unless you acknowledge and address it.

      Modi is an embodiment of a truly indigenous leader. Not speaking from any genetic standpoint but cultural one. He is an unashamed proud dharmic. And he is wise enough to mention how dharmic peoples were discriminated against for some time, in their own homelands.

      1. There’s a difference between acknowledging the past and using it concoct a perpetual Victim-Hood Complex. What’s exactly the point in wallowing in a Civilizational Self-Pity? Brits don’t cry about how they were invaded&conquered by the Normans, the Chinese don’t cry about the Mongols but Indians(specifically the ones from the North) center their Nationalist Narrative around the Islamic Conquests of India. I mean, it makes sense why Muslims would do that. Why are the Hindu Nationalists doing that!?

      2. modi’s acknowledgement of his people’s victimhood is just training a generation in non-accountability and fecklessness. He’s perfected screwing up and being forgiven by his performative empathy. So embarrassingly weak. Character is everything, regarding individuals or nations.

    3. That’s quite harsh but you are right, it’s a cucked mindset that is always reacting to this perceived slight. Unfortunately, if one views Hindu groups as some kind of a united religion (in history) striving against Muslim and European ‘colonizers’, there is no way out of explaining away the ”12 centuries of slavery”. Hard to see any other examples of a united nation/civilization being ‘enslaved’ for 12 centuries straight by ‘foreigners’.

        1. If partial ancestry is the only criteria of makings someone foriegn or native, then India is more like 35 centuries (perhaps more)

          Besides, I don’t see Iran, Egyptians or Mesopotamian still hurting about it. Perhaps because they don’t see that as foreign rule.

          1. Once the colonization is complete, not sure whats there to be hurt about. For example who do u see hurt in United states about the colonization. The native americans or the rest?

            Only around the places where there is incomplete colonization or resurfacing of native ideas will there be clashes.

          2. Nothing of the sort happened in the Middle East or in India what happened to Native Americans at the hands of the Europeans. Besides the natives are still hurting and live in reserves in their own home because they were actually colonized and brutalized. I think Indians use the term ‘colony’ lightly, perhaps for mass shock effect due to the word’s current connotation with the past. India was only ever really colonized by Europeans, others before were either conquerors that stayed and ruled, or plunderers that plundered and returned, not exactly colonizers. I don’t see how the Middle East is similar, changing religion does not mean one was colonized. People change religions all the time. Indians today speak English, or aspire to, wear western clothing or aspire to, follow a Western political and judicial system, and even have adopted Western morality en masse. This could be considered a continuation of their European colonization by some. Just retaining the caste system of marriages or having your own country is not enough, by your own logic.

          3. @Saurav
            Lay low, egg them on and don’t share, silently hog as much as possible. People forget over time.

            Saaris, Hindustani music, classical dance… are now thought to be 100% Republic of Indian, next up is Urdu shayari, Pakistanis anyways don’t read-write enough books, we already own Bangla. We have the forests, we have all the wildlife, we have almost all the interesting culture and monuments, we have the temples and we have the Taj Mahal, heck we even have BaraiIley, Deoband and Qadian. Eeehheeehawhawhawwww…

            With time, relative weakening of Arabs and Hindutva pressure, Indian Muslims will start differentiating themselves more and more. We already have all the really juicy bits of Indian subcontinent’s Islamic centers.

            All the substantial things will be ours, the ephemerous kitschy shararas others can keep. Never do sem-2-sem, don’t share stuff/identity, hog, hog, hog. Possession is nine-tenth the law, even more so for poorly-read people.

          4. If anything, even the rustic Indian Muslims have become more and more Arabicized and Anglicized..Many were fervent Indian nationalists before, but Modiji has put an end to it. Urdu is pretty much dying in India while flourishing in Pakistan, I don’t think India has produced anything good in Urdu Shayari for quite some time, most of the good stuff is actually coming from Pakistani Punjab of all places. Rest of the stuff, you can keep it, trash it, do whatever.. who cares. Taj Mahal or Tejo Mahalya, we don’t care. And Dar ul Uloom Deoband in India has not been relevant to Pakistan for more than 40 years now. We don’t have a Hindu problem in Pakistan, but you do have a Muslim problem in India. Good luck dealing with it, we will make sure to chime in every now and then 😛

          5. “If anything, even the rustic Indian Muslims have become more and more Arabicized and Anglicized.”

            Anglicized is good. Dhan Dhan Elon Sadhguru ki kripa se Arabized will go away.

            “Many were fervent Indian nationalists before, but Modiji has put an end to it.”
            Nah. Ones with constipation today have always had bowel issues, its mostly time pass.

            “Urdu is pretty much dying in India while flourishing in Pakistan, I don’t think India has produced anything good in Urdu Shayari for quite some time, most of the good stuff is actually coming from Pakistani Punjab of all places.”



            Also check Urdu Academies. We have money, better educated people, taste, people who actually read and publish books.

            thoda toh effort mara karo reply mein, Sheen Kaaf Nizam, Krishna Kumar Toor, Rahman Abbas, many many others…

            “Rest of the stuff, you can keep it, trash it, do whatever.. who cares.”
            Punch thodi naa rahe hain.

            “And Dar ul Uloom Deoband in India has not been relevant to Pakistan for more than 40 years now.”
            Who said anything about relevance in Pakistan? No need for relevance just prestige and pedigree for the day when religions of the world become toothless, when men become chiknis softies, and women shall color their hair purple for ‘aurat march’.

            I am anti-strategy pro-hardwork and pro-long-hours, therefore pro big-wall and no-contact between India-Pakistan more so now that we need to digest delicious Kashmir completely for a couple of decades, other than chiming in via Afghanistan every now and then ?

          6. I am sorry to say but academies to promote a language is usually for languages that are dying or in the process of dying out. Regardless, its only good for us that Urdu flourishes in India because it just increases our soft power as we are producing the better material in it and we speak it better now, unadulterated with rustic rural languages you guys call Hindi these days. As for prestige of Dar ul Uloom Deoband, most of the international madrassa students now come to Pakistan, Iran or Saudi Arabia, not India.

            //No need for relevance just prestige and pedigree for the day when religions of the world become toothless, when men become chiknis softies, and women shall color their hair purple for ‘aurat march’.//

            That is surely India’s fate, but our birth rate is proof enough that we have avoided the cancer of feminism. Long may it continue.

            I agree with you on the futility of sem2sem. It’s mostly one sided though, and that side is not our side 😛

          7. @Qureshi
            What are unique Pakistani crafts? I think Kashikari is the really spell bounding but Persians and others completely outdo Pakistan in it.

            I have a very low opinion of Truck art and handmade lawn fashion. Unique architectural styles, prints, anything? Where could I look to read more?

          8. “Nothing of the sort happened in the Middle East or in India what happened to Native Americans at the hands of the Europeans.”

            Wouldn’t the judge of that really be the people who were colonized? Sure Pakistanis may feel different for whatever reasons. But that does not mean other ethncities have to share the same feeling.

            “Indians today speak English, or aspire to, wear western clothing or aspire to, follow a Western political and judicial system, and even have adopted Western morality en masse. This could be considered a continuation of their European colonization by some.”

            If we take that standard, than almost all of asia and africa is still colonized. Why just the ex- colonized space, China or Nepal which were never colonized would also fall in the same bracket. Also dont talk like some white person as India is just caste+curry or something. We know that Pakistan is just not terrorism. We know our countries are more than that.

          9. “As for prestige of Dar ul Uloom Deoband, most of the international madrassa students now come to Pakistan, Iran or Saudi Arabia, not India.”

            Deobandi, Qadyani and Barelvi.

            “That is surely India’s fate, but our birth rate is proof enough that we have avoided the cancer of feminism. Long may it continue.”


            Enjoy veere!

            “I agree with you on the futility of sem2sem. It’s mostly one sided though, and that side is not our side.”


            What do you make of Modern Indus people and Gandharans on twitter?

          10. I don’t know about Egypt but I met some Persians and they are quite vocal about it if you “know” about their history.

          11. Besides, I don’t see Iran, Egyptians or Mesopotamian still hurting about it. Perhaps because they don’t see that as foreign rule.

            You have clearly never spoken to a Coptic Egyptian or Iraqi Christian.

            They make Hindutvadis look like a bunch of Islamophiles

  12. The ironic part is the vast majority of the folks who suffered under the 12 century of slavery think that they were the ones conquering.

  13. @Qureishi
    I’d be curious to know how does the average pakistani see themselves as the “conqueror”? Weren’t majority of positions reserved for Central Asians and Afghans? If you take the average Pakistani, they were the discriminated lot.
    I’ve also read Mughals had explicit quota like policies for not enlisting “Hinds” which included Indian Muslims as well. I’m always astounded at the level of mental gymnastics one has to perform to start calling Pakistanis as conquerors. The word “Cuck” mentality unironically applies to Pakistanis who espouse this opinion, unless all of this is just to get a rise out of Indians, in which case it makes sense.

    I’m not trolling, looking to understand the thought process.

    1. https://scroll.in/article/946178/a-historians-advice-to-indian-muslims-in-1947-is-relevant-to-hindus-today

      this was interesting.
      Habib warned Indian Muslims against nostalgia for the medieval past, when the rulers were of their faith. As he remarked: “The position of the Indian Musalmans in the middle ages was, if a very rough simile be allowed, not unlike Indian Christians during the British period.” Ruler and ruled might worship the same god; but in everything else they were separate and different.
      An analysis of the officers of the Moghul and the pre-Moghul governments of Delhi will reveal the plain and sad fact that Muslims of Indian birth were rigidly excluded from the higher military and civil offices of the state. An Indian Muslim had as little chance of becoming a warlord of the Empire of Delhi as a Hindu Sudra had of ascending a Rajasthan throne.”

    1. Bahut kute jaayenge abhi Afghan.

      Ertugul Ghazi(i.e. Turkey) is coming to be chowkidaar of Kabul Airport.

      Cheel kare chicken ki rakhwali!

  14. https://unherd.com/2021/06/british-imperialism-didnt-destroy-india/

    Razib tries to pull a fast one.

    “India was subject to 24 major famines between 1850 and 1899 and millions died of starvation … these tragedies were caused by a lack of accountability in an undemocratic regime”

    closely followed by

    “great prosecutions of British misrule in India are off-base”

    These two together make no sense.

    ” India’s poverty in the 20th century had more to do with the fact that its economic basis, subsistence agriculture, did not change much from the 18th century.”

    Who was supposed to take care of this?

    “but European nations without extensive colonies also underwent rapid development in the 19th century.”

    All this is hindsight and those Euros had the benefit of trading with neighbors rich with loot.

    “There was no need for transfer of wealth from India to Britain”
    And yet there was so much effort.

    Historians have a way to justify everything. Everyone was a bumbling idiot despite them literally making wars and losing men to achieve clearly stated goals.

    Dinesh Dsouza of BioTwitter for a reason.

    1. She is doing what Muslim leaders do. Taking control of economy and power from the hands of common people and concentrating it in the hands of a few. In a nutshell she is creating a feudal Bengal again as it was before the British. The entire economic and intellectual prowess will be squeezed into the Calcutta Bhadralok. She has been successful post poll violence as napunsak bjp didn’t do anything. Had it been under Indira Gandhi or Congress, it would have been different- A President rule would have been imposed, NSG commanders sent to Calcutta and cleared “drains” of Bengal. This government is so napunsak that the Judges who recused are liable for impeachment won’t be impeached by the Parliament.

        1. It says that under Article 124(4), the judges are eligible for impeachment under the charge of ïncapacity”.

  15. British mouse roars in Russian waters

    HMS Defender Versus the Russian Military: the Danger of Believing Your Own Propaganda

    In a shockingly provocative move, the UK’s HMS Defender purposely sailed into Crimean territorial waters on its way to Georgia.

    Press reports suggest that there was a dispute between the UK defense and foreign ministries over whether to violate Russia’s claimed territorial waters with a heavily armed warship. According to reports, Prime Minister Boris Johnson himself jumped in to over-rule the more cautious Foreign Office in favor of confrontation.

    As Johnson later claimed, because the UK (and the US) does not recognize Russian sovereignty over Crimea, the UK was actually sailing through Ukrainian waters. It was an in-your-face move toward Russia just weeks after the US and NATO were forced to back down from a major clash with Russia in eastern Ukraine

    This time, as was the case in eastern Ukraine, the Russians took a different view of the situation. Russian coast guard vessels ordered the HMS Defender to exit Russian territorial waters – an order they punctuated with rare live fire of cannon and dropping of bombs.

    Having had their bluff called, the UK government did what all governments do best: it lied. The Russians did not shoot at a UK warship, they claimed. It was a previously-scheduled Russian military exercise in the area.

    Unfortunately for the UK government, in its haste to create good propaganda about standing up to Russia, they had a BBC reporter on-board the Defender who spilled the beans: Yes, the Russian military did issue several warnings, yes it did buzz the HMS Defender multiple times, and yes there were shots fired in the Defender’s direction.


    1. I do stand with the community. They are harassed in Pak Britian Canada by the same jihadis. Infact Syro Malabar Church- Nasrani Christians are also standing up against jihadist in Kerala along with Hindus we need to support them too.

  16. Indian Silicon Valley Democrat Ro Khanna Pushes For ‘Brown’ Reparations Against Interest of Whites
    What Qualifies As ‘Brown’?
    Democrat California Congressman Ro Khanna is subtly trying to widen the net for possible racial reparations in the United States of America. In a tweet, Khanna called for reparations for “black and brown” people, leaving us to wonder: what kinds of brown people does he want to give reparations to? Is he talking about all Hispanics? How much would that cost? Is he including Indians like himself? Is he including Kamala Harris, who hails from a high-caste Brahmin family? Does Ro Khanna envision a future in which white plumbers in Nebraska pay reparations to elite Indian immigrants in Silicon Valley? HERE IS RO KHANNA’S RACIALLY-CHARGED TWEET.
    Ro Khanna tweeted, “When we talk about targeted reparations, we’re talking about providing Black and Brown communities the same opportunities to build generational wealth that white families have.” Fascinating! Ro Khanna comes from a politically-active Indian family. He is the son of immigrants from India including a chemical engineer father who was educated both in India and the United States. Khanna now represents tech-rich Silicon Valley, which is driving the push for Indian migration to the U.S. 77 percent of Indian people in the United States reportedly voted for Democrat Hillary Clinton in the 2016 presidential election, according to polling. The publication Unherd ran a very revealing article headlined, “How Brahmins lead the fight against white privilege,” describing how elite Indians embrace “radical” leftist politics in America. Ro Khanna, it should be noted, infamously crossed paths with Fang Fang, the suspected Chinese spy paramour of Eric Swalwell. Fang Fang worked as a Ro Khanna campaign volunteer.


  17. I was reading Enigma’s comment and all the surprised interjections to it. What did Modi say exactly?

    …..barah sau saal ki gulami ki maansikta humein pareshaan kar rahi hai. Bahut baar humse thoda ooncha vyakti mile, to sar ooncha karke baat karne ki hamari takat nahin hoti hai…

    He said this on the floor of the Parliament on June 9, 2014.

    Now the word Ghulam in Urdu is a loan from Arabic which means a assistant, boy, helper or servant. It does not mean slave literally – there are hundreds of people named Ghulam in a religious manner that implies “servitude to the Lord”.

    In this specific instance, he uses “maansikta” which clarifies the use of the former – so he is referring to a “philosophy of servitude”. Not slavery. You can be a high ranking intellectual but still be servile.

    The second sentence refers to the lack of a spine. He is not talking about slavery but the attitude of servitude that pervades every Indian field.

    The inability to contest foreign narratives is a sore point with many modern Asian civilization-states. Chinese talk about a “century of humiliation”. The Japanese talk about the forced pacification after WW2.

    Imposed narratives (AIT is empirical, socialism is good, Caste system is bad, Islam brings peace, Eurocentric values are best) have to be met with counter currents. Irrespective of whether that narrative has inherent value or not.

    There is a Sinic pole, a Nippon centre and definitely an Indic Central. These are long term games that must be played. Examples – Non aligned Movement, electronic voting machines, Rote learning.

  18. I think by the end of the century, Pakistan will be a bigger power than India.

    By 2050, Putin will be dead. Russian influence, whatever remains of it in Central Asia would have waned. Russia itself would be up for grabs. China ideally would be best placed to take up Russian territory. But China would be an ageing society by then. It would be rich but old.

    Pakistan on the other hand would still be young and vibrant and somewhat prosperous – the jewel in the crown of the Chinese empire. The rest of the world would know of Pakistan’s special place in the world. China’s oldest and deepest ally.

    China will initially employ Pakistanis as foot soldiers to conquer Russia. They’d also give the latter a free hand in Central Asia, along with technology and capital.

    There’d also be a mass migration of Pakistanis to China. Pakistani facial features, especially the north-western ones would be in huge demand there. Over a few decades a layer of highly professional Pakistanis will establish themselves in the Chinese society, with deep connections with their co-ethnics back in the homeland.

    This Pakistani network will over time begin to exert influence on Chinese policy as well, aligning it further and further to Pakistan’s interests. Over time, the relationship between the two countries might even invert.

    Pakistan, on its part will stop to worry too much about India and Kashmir as it would expand outward from the Hindukush. Once Pakistanis stop expending useless energy on India, they’d be able to focus more on their country. There will be rapid development of human capital thanks to Islamic stress on equality of man. Pakistanis which will eagerly lap up all the knowhow coming in from China.

    This will further Pakistani influence on Central Asia, till it becomes the pre-eminent power there. by 2150, you could travel to Astana and expect to be greeted in Urdu. You might even take offence if someone doesn’t respond to you in the beautiful tongue.

    At this point, the India-Pakistan rivalry would become history. Mainly because India, if such a thing even exists at that point, will be too old and weak a society to do anything. Pakistan would conquer Kashmir in a jiffy. It could conquer the whole of India but it will realise that ruling over such a messy land is not worth the effort. So it’d just put some sanctions on India to prevent India from ever growing again. India will eventually crumble. No territory of that name would exist.

    A century beyond that, Pakistan, realising that the Indus flows through it and the name ‘India’ holds some historic romance with it, will take up the name for itself.

    And that’s how India will come to rule from Arabian Sea to the Arctic Ocean.

    1. Would like to have what ur smoking.
      Seems straight out of Naseem Hijazi’s novel

      1. I didn’t intend for this to turn out like a copypasta when I started writing it but now that it has, please feel free to post it without attribution on forums like defence.pk and other places where people unironically talk about fifth generation warfare.

        I’d be interested to see the limits of Poe’s Law.

        1. Prats which generation are you living in? Pakdefense folks have moved on to sixth generation warfare and geo-economics (new buzzword) warfare

          Try to keep up man.

    2. India’s muslim problem will make so many babies and the coward, confused Hindu raised on low-protein diet will keep taking the easier routw when confronted. Just look at how it was out-maneuvered in Afghanistan. Eventually Pakistan will establish protectorate muslim states in six places across India: Kashmir, Rohillakhand, Kerala, Hyderabad, Bengal and Assam. There will be no outright conquering of Delhi as its Pakistani client muslim population will run the show in rest of India. Verile pakistanis, having gained lebensraum in central asia and being rich and all would just like to manage the mess that would be India. Each of the Pakistani colonies in India would serve some ‘geostrategic’ interest of Pakistan, for example, Calcutta would rival the then superpower Bangladesh. This is what the map of Akhand Bharat would look like btw, but it would be Pakistan which would take over the India/Bharat name like prats said:

      Gandhar, Kamboj and Indus people shall reign supreme due to their ‘geostrategy’.

      1. My prediction is that in mid 2100s a cold war could start between pakistan and the world’s other superpower, the resurrected ottomon empire (which would control most of europe and middle east by that point). The one who would win this cold war would go on to convert the whole world to islam.( btw, you guys forgot about khalistan and pakistan’s future colony in europe – londonistan. The latter would be a big friction point during the cold war)

      2. It’s a good proposition but Pakistan isn’t Central Asian even if they want to imitate them. They don’t possess required intellect and economic prowess to do so. They are running a mediaeval feudal empire just like Turkic hordes but still not able to achieve their level of extraction. My best wishes to Pakistan surviving next 50 years and already facing colonial threats from China.

  19. https://theprint.in/opinion/bjp-version-of-hindutva-is-rising-but-there-is-one-aspect-where-it-failed-to-convince-hindus/686906/

    Most things which I say on the blog now has pew Survey to back it up.

    “ A significantly powerful section of Hindus thinks that Hinduism, Hindi language and political support to the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) are fundamental elements of a true Indian identity.“

    More Hindu region = more Indian region

    “ Majority of Hindu respondents think that Partition was as a positive development. On the contrary, the Muslim and Sikh respondents do not subscribe to this view. They envisage Partition as a negative phenomenon“

    Jinnah the greatest Indian ever to live

    “ The report shows that a sizeable number of Hindus (64 per cent) think that they are truly Indian because of their religion. This view is a north Indian phenomenon. Yet, one finds a clear manifestation of this political imagination in different regions.

    In this context, the rise of Hindi as a marker of Indian identity is really a fascinating finding. It questions the dominant liberal imagination that Hindu-Hindi-Hindutva does not survive in non-Hindi regions. Table 4 shows that acceptance of Hindi is gradually increasing across the country, even in the southern region.

    The oncoming hindi schism

    1. @Saurav

      Most of what you say is leftist framework interpretation. I am not surprised that you agree with this report.

      The report itself –

      1. Went to 29000 respondents, this is less than population of Karol Bagh. Has very weak statistical power with respect to the nationwide claims.

      2. Of the 7 people in the methods and research team, only 1 Indian. Read this correctly!! the people who framed the questions are foreigners mostly.

      Add (1+2) – then you understand why this report is a narrative being forced to stereotype. Again I see mostly Marxists and Jhola gang pushing this report on Twitter. RW not even touching this.

      1. I dont see anything majorly out of step from standard RW ideas. Its just survey data. And to me it does accurately (even though some findings might seem paradoxical) portray Indian sensibilites. And contrary to what u say, i feel this report might sent shivers down the Indian left, considering the tall task they are up against.

        If u mean my views are standard LW framework, then would just like to say, i come from a state/region where u would need a microscope to look out for LW folks. I dont come from either commie or Dravidian regions/ethncities. So my upbringing hasnt been influenced by anything remotly left. Though my ex would have been delighted had it been …

        1. A lot of LW and secularists have moved on from their “secularism in danger” narrative today. That one was ruthlessly crushed in 2014. Newer narratives are in play.

          One of them is painting Hindutva or BJP as a Gangetic Belt phenomenon which it is clearly not. Notwithstanding Vajpayee, BJP did not attain critical mass in the Gangetic Belt until recently. The entire fulcrum of Hindutva lies in Western India.

          The psychological and sociological basis of this newer narrative is on very solid ground.

          People want to associate a political philosophy with success, perfection, virility, fecundity and visible style. By associating Hindutva/BJP with the Gangetic Belt, the pundits want to break that association – while in fact the stagnation of the Gangetic Belt arises from totalitarian philosophies of socialism, Islamism and casteism.

          You might have seen multiple pieces in LW media that Yogi is the next Modi, its part of the same play. Deep thinkers have pinpointed this in multiple fora.

          ….If u mean my views are standard LW framework, then would just like to say, i come from a state/region where u would need a microscope to look out for LW folks…

          Actually LW does not mean people carrying red flags with hammer and sickles on them. Left Wing is the presence of totalitarianism. It is present in its highest intensity in the Gangetic Belt. The specific vehicle is Islamism and other elements within society that have piggy backed to political power on that vehicle (Congress, SP etc.). Indoctrination was achieved via state sponsored campaigns like secularism (English word for Ganga-Jamuni Tehzeeb).

          A chronic symptom of totalitarianism is anemic economic performance. It is because people are not free to indulge in philosophies or transactional markets.

          Sindhis and Gujaratis had to carry water so that the region’s people could worship at a proper temple. The region’s leader – Mulayam who had Karsevaks shot at – even won back power after the demolition. The people inside that region (fishbowl effect), like you, have no clue. You think others are in glasshouses. That is the success of a totalitarian culture.

          1. “Actually LW does not mean people carrying red flags with hammer and sickles on them. Left Wing is the presence of totalitarianism. It is present in its highest intensity in the Gangetic Belt. ”

            Just putting this out there ☝️ , lest people take ur analysis seriously.

  20. https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.economictimes.com/industry/cons-products/electronics/tcl-to-start-handset-tv-display-panel-manufacturing-in-india-from-q4-hire-1000/amp_articleshow/83980936.cms

    TCL to start handset, TV display panel manufacturing in India from Q4

    This would be the second largest unit of handset display assembly in India after Samsung, whereas rivals Holitech, TXD and LCE currently have very scarce output. The 280,000-square-meter facility in Tirupati is TCL’s largest investment outside its home market so far.

    1. I was initially surprised to see a north Indian Brahmin achieving something worthwhile. But turns out he’s American so that probably explains it.

  21. https://www.dawn.com/news/1632539/pakistan-accepts-chinas-version-on-xinjiangs-uighurs-pm-imran

    Prime Minister Imran Khan on Thursday said that Pakistan accepted Beijing’s version regarding the treatment of Uighurs in China’s Xinjiang province.

    Speaking to Chinese journalists on Thursday as Beijing marked the centenary of the ruling Communist Party, the prime minister said that the Chinese version was completely different from what was being reported in Western media.

    “Because of our extreme proximity and relationship with China, we actually accept the Chinese version.”

  22. https://grand-tamasha.simplecast.com/episodes/neha-sahgal-on-religion-and-identity-in-contemporary-india

    Neha Sahgal on Religion and Identity in Contemporary India

    One intresting thing in the talk is around 25 mts in, the only group which seemed to have its population increased is Christians. Around 0.4 percent of Hindu pops converted to Christianity , and most of them are in the Southern region of India, which increases the Christian pops from 6 to 7 percent.

    As i had said before, Less-Hindu region means…… 😛

    1. “Zipper of Eurasia” aahahahahaha, explains his accent, adick is perpetually stuck in his throat.

      btw, Baniya ka shaitaani dimaag dekhiye this is the reason for 6th gen warfare:


      “In his 1992 book Ancient geography of Ayodhya, historian Shyam Narain Pande argued that Rama was born around present-day Herat in Afghanistan.[38] In 1997, Pande presented his theory in the paper “Historical Rama distinguished from God Rama” at the 58th session of the Indian History Congress in Bangalore. In 2000, Rajesh Kochhar similarly traced the birthplace of Rama to Afghanistan, in his book The Vedic People: Their History and Geography. According to him, the Harriud river of Afghanistan is the original “Sarayu”, and Ayodhya was located on its banks.”

      Raaaamm Lala hum aayenge, Mandir Wahin banaenge…

      Logic dekho launde ka, khud hagga phailaya Afghanistan mein aur India civil war karwaayega. WTF? Kuch bhi bakchodi, matlab kuch bhi bak dena hai chutiyon ko. Anyways, ‘Hum iski kadi ninda karte hain’. Repeating what SVB Patel (kind of) said, ‘Hum unhein rokenge nai. Jab Pakistan swarg ban jaayega, tab hum bhi wahan se aati thandi hawa enjoy karenge’

    2. This is certainly funnier than Kunal Kamra. Pakistan seems to have the highest number of geostrategists per capita for any country in the world.

        1. Lmfao

          They are so blinded by hatred. It is amazing. All good of the subcontinent supposedly comes from them and all bad from India. What a funny bunch of people. I applaud their irrationality. It is what holds them back.

          1. TBH I have not been able to keep up since Zaid Hamid’s Twitter was blocked in India.

            How the hell do people move from 5th to 6th generation in 3-4 years.

          1. Why do the rangers act like the police? Think of the uproar if BSF (or any central force like CRPF) patrolled Jaipur or Gandhinagar. Most likely it is their CRPF+CISF+BSF all rolled into one, although they have Airport Security Force (ASF). The reasonable hope I have is that this mixing will lead to the inevitable blunting of the blade, Indian Army officers actively hate getting into civilian areas, I think our Rashtriya Rifles will be eventually dissolved. Naxal fight has already been taken over by state police commandos. But Pakistani central forces actively meddle into routine police(and at one point judiciary) affairs.

            Overall a very different structure from what India has, they have a national guard (with Mujaahid and Janbaaz regiment lol!) and a reserve.

          2. Why do the rangers act like the police?

            Well our rangers do act like police in conflict areas like Kashmir/North East. For them Karachi was/is a conflict area, so no surprise there.

  23. Why are baniyas used as the term for hatred among so many? Why are they hated so much? They don’t have much real power at all…

    Brahmins and zamindar class OBCs still call all the real shots.

    1. Envy. Precisly because they have economic power without having poltical power.

    2. For Punjab at least, it’s economic resentment and racial hatred.

      Also do you know about this saying from Punjab my uncle told me about: “Jatts are so stupid compared to Baniyas that a mentally challenged kid from a Jatt family will throw items from his house outside while the Baniya kid will collect items from outside and bring them to his house”.

      1. That makes sense. Agricultural birdari groups envy Khatris for economic success. And they have racial hatred for chamars.

        Banias are like a combination of both to them. So it would make sense that they are the ultimate boogeyman. This is especially true in today’s context because they look to stand the most to benefit from the end of the Zamindari rent seeking behavior that the farm laws seek to end. They are also part of the historical class that gave out high interest loans to farmers. Hence, all of the anti- adani/ambani mood and effigies of Modi/Amit Shah.

        Racially, they range a lot, from the more steppe shifted rajputs (some marwaris) to S Indian Brahmin average (my cluster aka guju vanias+some NW Banias from kits I’ve seen) to Patel/S Indian mid caste average (surprisingly a lot of gangetic plain banias with like 55% on harrapa- I think the AASI population was quite dense in the plains). But on average, they are all less steppe than the agricultural birdari groups of Punjab.

        And S Asia has a general theme of racially superiority complexes along the Steppe:AASI cline.

        And I have not heard that story. Generally, banias and their equivalent castes, from my experience, do stereotype Jatts as strong but stupid and themselves as less physically capable but smarter. I think this is all nonsense.

        I do deplore the anti-physical culture of some Guju vanias. When I first started strength training, I was actively discouraged by some of my relatives who told me it “wasn’t in my blood.” Of course, not all or even the majority did it but some did. Thank god I did not listen to them. Also, in med school two among the smartest in my class happened to be Jatt Sikhs.

        These stereotypes are just that. Perhaps there are some empiric differences. Sure. But culture magnifies the heck out of them, to a point where they cannot properly be studied because of the vast environmental differences.

        Anyway, the difference within groups is so large that there will be significant overlap, even if there are average empiric differences. Therefore, not judging people as individuals and stereotyping is foolish.

        1. For Gujarati Patidars at least I think vanias / banias aren’t really hated but maybe seen in a somewhat aspirational light for their business success in creating large enterprises. The stereotypes are street smart, cheap, and calculating.

          In the North the main agricultural castes like Jatts, Yadavs, Kurmis, Gujjars seem to all aspire to Rajput cultural norms of honor, martial status etc.

          I think the main difference in Gujarat is the Rajputs, on average, are poorer than Patidars. So Rajputs are respected to some extent for historical reasons, but the Gujarati Rajput culture is not viewed in aspirational terms by Patidars. Rajput stereotypes are brave, emotional, and foolhardy.

          1. yeah it just depends on how “martial” or communist the area is. Communists of Bengal hate the mercantile Marwaris. The “martial” areas in the North hate banias. Maratha culture also dislikes banias and Gujaratis in general for dominating Mumbai. Only in Gujarat itself is there not this conflict.

            My best family friends are all Patel btw. Never felt any resentment in anyway. What you are saying at least matches up with my reality.

          2. On baniyas and commies


            “”We have already acquired 30 acres of land for the apparel park at Kizhakkambalam in Kochi. The project report has also been completed and the project would have provided jobs for 20,000 people. The three industrial parks were envisaged to promote start-ups providing all infrastructural facilities. Each of these parks would have created 5,000 job opportunities. The decision to scrap the project
            has been taken as I am fed up with the continuous harassment at the hands of the authorities. Whoever invests in Kerala will lose peace of mind and will be driven to suicide,” said Sabu M Jacob, chairman and managing director of Kitex group.”

    3. People want to see power aligned with virtue. Mercantile classes conflate opportunism with wealth creation. Land and martial classes see things like courage as underpinning authority, without which higher order wealth creation doesn’t have a foundation. Even supposedly secular polities have implicit ideas of the sacred that buttress claims of state authority, I dont see any way around that.

    1. “Word Salad” nothing tangible. People with underdeveloped brain are employed by these people.

      1. To me what’s ironic is a dravidian accusing India of being xenophobic and ethnonationalist

    1. What is even more confusing is the existence of Mujras. How do they justify it?

  24. https://twitter.com/tanvi_madan/status/1410613583331823624
    “Another day, another newspaper w Chinese propaganda. A full-page ad on p. 3
    , which PRC embassy highlights as Indian mainstream media publishing a “special page” for CCP’s 100th anniv.
    Do the biz side of papers realize they undermine their reporting side w this stuff?”

    I am surprised at the surprise about commie paper/people doing commie stuff.

  25. https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-screenshots-that-deserve-677-49k-views/answer/Rahul-6147?ch=10&share=a8ce0f02&srid=u6vS8

    This is a big one. Hatred of the dark skin and AASI features runs deep through all religions in India but opposition to inter caste marriage is highest among Muslims. Pak also has its share of heavy caste discrimination and their forums are jam packed with hardcore racialism. I think for Muslims in the subcontinent, the added layer of the more caucasoid people to the West who are revered as the custodians of Islamicate culture, at least in the past, adds an additional layer to the already present caste dynamics. Why the latter have not yet dissipated, points to the depth of the irrational hatred of darker peoples and tropicals features that S Asians have.

  26. The French media puts the Indian lapdog media to shame in the investigation of the Rafale deal.

    As France Probes Rafale Deal, Opposition Parties Say it’s Time for Investigation in India Too
    Over the last two months, the French website Mediapart has exposed a number of possible financial crimes in the Rafale deal.

    A new judicial probe in France into allegations of corruption and favouritism in the controversial 2016 Rafale aircraft deal has sparked a political row in India. Opposition political parties and critics, who had raised various questions about alleged impropriety in the Rs 60,000 crore defence deal earlier, have begun to target the Union government again.

    Over the last two months, the French website Mediapart (pronounced may-thee-aa-paar) has exposed a number of possible financial crimes in the Rafale deal, following which a fresh judicial investigation was ordered in France.

    Among the first to respond was Prashant Bhushan, the eminent lawyer who had also moved the Supreme Court of India to demand a probe into the purchase of the aircraft. However, the apex court, then under Chief Justice of India Ranjan Gogoi, had dismissed a clutch of such petitions, rejecting the contention that there were grounds to file a FIR in the matter.

    Speaking to The Wire, Bhushan said, “The Mediapart story further corroborates the whole string of evidence which we had placed before the Supreme Court seeking an independent investigation into the deal. Unfortunately, the bench led by CJI Gogoi preferred to blindly accept what the government told them in a sealed cover note which was later found to contain much false information, including about a non-existent CAG report. Thereafter, Justice Gogoi was given a Rajya Sabha seat immediately after retirement.”

    He further said that it was “unfortunate that the Indian media did not follow up” the Rafale scam as had happened in the Bofors case.

    “The French media followed up the story, which has now led to an independent probe regarding corruption, bribery, money laundering and influence peddling involved in the deal and puts the spotlight on Anil Ambani again,” he said.

    The Mediapart probe into the defence deal shows that Ambani may have already entered into an agreement with French aircraft manufacturer Dassault two weeks before Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced the new Rafale deal. The new deal, in which Dassault had to supply 36 ready-to-fly aircraft to India in partnership with Anil Ambani’s Reliance group, was worth Rs 60,000 crore. It replaced the earlier concluded deal in which Dassault had to supply 126 Rafale fighter jets to India, out of which 108 were to be manufactured by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) through a technology transfer agreement. According to various estimates, the new agreement was three times more expensive than the previous deal.


    1. There is no graft, this is mudslinging, Prashant Bhushan and Rahul Gandhi are idiots. Look at the costs of Qatari or Egyptian jets.

      1. Anil Ambani’s Reliance had no experience in the defense industry. The contract should have gone to HAL or another Indian company in the defense industry.

        1. If Modi had to choose why would it go with the laggard Anil and not his BFF Mukesh? Even knowing that going with Anil would create a tiff with Mukesh? There is no benefit for BJP/Modi to rig the deal to favor Anil. He is no big donor to BJP, plus he is already knee deep in debt.

          Most probably Dassault felt having a Indian partner will shelter them from all this corruption/kick back accusations, and went with a high profile company who is in a weak spot (Anil’s Reliance checks all the boxes)

  27. Setback for Modi, Macron as French Judge Opens Criminal Investigation Into Rafale Deal With India

    In an explosive new report, the French website Mediapart says Dassault Aviation signed its first MoU with the Anil Ambani group on March 26, 2015, two weeks before Prime Minister Modi went public in Paris on his decision to buy 36 Rafale jets and scrap the earlier contract for 126 aircraft.

    “It emerges from the documents that Dassault provided Reliance with remarkably generous financial terms for the establishment of their joint venture. Ordinarily, the partners in a jointly owned subsidiary would provide equal funds for its capital. But that was not the case with DRAL.

    “The two partners agreed a maximum investment in the subsidiary of 169 million euros. Of that sum, Dassault, which held a 49% stake in DRAL, pledged to provide up to 159 million euros, representing 94% of the total, while Reliance would provide just the remaining 10 million euros.

    “This meant that Reliance was given the majority 51% stake in the joint venture in return for a relatively very modest sum.

    “While Reliance brought neither funds nor know-how of any significance to the joint venture, it did bring to it its capacity for political influence. In an extract from one of the documents obtained by Mediapart detailing the agreements between Reliance and Dassault, Anil Ambani’s group was handed the mission of “marketing for programs and services with the GOI” – the acronym for “government of India”.


    1. Everyone will come around bro, everyone.

      Plus there is this issue about PEW survey how they were shopping for a result, and that since they are Americans, they don’t understand India. This is what India’s premier survey agency CSDS chief had to say to about the PEW survey


      “Attitudes towards #religion amongst common #Indians have not changed much during last 5 years. More or less similar findings on various issues in @pewresearch on Religion 2021 and @LoknitiCSDS survey on the same theme in 2015. @csdsdelhi”

  28. Bush administration Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld is dead at the age of 88. It’s a tragedy that Rumsfeld died before he could be put on trial for crimes against humanity.

    In an infamous column that year at the National Review, Jonah Goldberg made the bluntest version of the case for invading Iraq, approvingly quoting an old speech by his friend Michael Ledeen: “Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show the world we mean business.” Warming to the same theme around the same time at the New York Times, Thomas Friedman said that “these countries” and their “terrorist” pals were being sent an important message by the very unpredictability of the Bush Administration’s warmongering: We know what you’re cooking in your bathtubs. “We don’t know exactly what we’re going to do about it, but if you think we are going to just sit back and take another dose from you, you’re wrong. Meet Don Rumsfeld – he’s even crazier than you are.”

    Here’s what the craziness of Donald Rumsfeld looked like in practice for the citizens of the “crappy little countries” the United States picked and threw against the wall during Rumsfeld’s years as Bush’s Secretary of Defense: a peer-reviewed study published in The Lancet, one of the world’s most prestigious medical journals, in 2006 — the year Rumsfeld left office — estimated 654,965 “excess deaths” in Iraq since the invasion in 2003. That’s 2.5 percent of the total population of the country dead as a result of the violence.

    This doesn’t, of course, take into account the spiraling waves of chaos and bloodshed that have continued to rock the region throughout the eighteen years since the region was destabilized by the 2003 invasion. A similar story has played out on a smaller scale in Afghanistan — where US troops are still present and wedding parties are still being bombed almost two decades after Rumsfeld and his friends got their invasion.

    And this counting of corpses leaves out the heartbreak of families in these countries that lost loved ones. It leaves out the millions of refugees displaced from their homes. It leaves out the suffering of people who had limbs blown off or had to care for people who did.

    And it leaves out one of the most gut-wrenching aspects of Rumsfeld’s time in office: his and President Bush’s open embrace of what they called “enhanced interrogation techniques,” or what any human being with a shred of conscience would simply call “torture.” Suspects illegally detained on suspicion of involvement in terrorism (or even involvement in resistance against the invasions of their countries) were tortured under Rumsfeld’s watch in Iraq and Afghanistan, in the notoriously lawless “facility” at Guantanamo Bay, and elsewhere around the world. Some of that was done under the auspices of the CIA. But much of it fell under the purview of Rumsfeld’s department of defense.

    Spc. Charles Graner and Spc. Sabrina Harman with naked and hooded prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq in 2003. The prisoners were forced to form a human pyramid. Wikimedia Commons
    In 2006, Berlin attorney Wolfgang Kaleck filed a formal criminal complaint against Rumsfeld and several other American officials for their involvement in torture. Needless to say, Rumsfeld never had to see the inside of a courtroom in Germany or anywhere else.

    In that sense, and only in that sense, Donald Rumsfeld died too soon.


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