Division

One of the things that has saddened and frustrated me on this weblog over the last 12 years has been the tendency of brown people, Indian subcontinentals, South Asians, etc. to engage in differentiation. As a geneticist, I am aware of differences, and I accept and admit it candidly to an extent that is rare in an open manner in the West. Also, some ribbing and joking is normal, and I am not offended.

But Pakistanis vs. Indians, Southies vs. Northies, Bangladeshis vs. Indians. High caste vs. low caste, vegetarian vs. non-vegetarian.

Our cultural differences are striking. Our diversity of form, belief and practice is mind-blogging. But we come from the same roots. The rest of the world looks at us, and recognizes the kinship. We? Not so much. Muslims claim Arab or Iranian heritage. Jats and northwest Indians distinguish themselves from the lower and dark races. Southerners express contempt for the barbarism of BIMARU. BIMARU claims that they are the font of culture. And so forth.

This is not to end with a resounding assertion. But sometimes, I wonder if the silent majority is not like this, and we hear the prattling of the minority?

78 thoughts on “Division”

  1. intolerant minority often wins because they lead the culture wars and polarize society, the aim of culture wars is power. Silent majority keeps its head down for the sake of bread and butter issues, want to keep peace, trust in law and order. But there are periods where it will resonate with some of these sentiments leading to avalanches and socio political movements.

  2. it might just be the case of the basement dwelling keyboard warrior getting attracted to the comments section. Some of these guys straight up belong to stormfront .

    Ive studied and worked with all types of browns for long time. Have rarely experienced any animosity and there is a real feeling of kinship. Even when Hindi/Urdu isnt there. Many of us wouldn’t have managed to get through university if it wasnt for the brown kinship.

    For sure you do occasionally come across chest thumping “we are superpower” Indians, usually the ones who get shipped in by Infosys, HCL etc. but they get straightened out pretty quickly when they realize their only friends in this new world are other brown people. We all know what sort of shitholes we come from and we mostly have the same goals.

    1. ‘usually the ones who get shipped in by Infosys, HCL etc’

      How are they any worse than people who pay for their MS with loans? or Punjabi/Gujju people who came via visa fraud or ‘family’ visas.

      AFAIK Indian engineers from Infosys, HCL, Deloitte, EY,… have taken over American Business and Engineering schools completely.

      1. ‘usually the ones who get shipped in by Infosys, HCL etc’

        students who come in have a hard road ahead and uncertain future. their feet are firmly on the ground. The work visa types are already employed and earning and arrive full of biases (seen a few cases most of them are still good hardworking folks)

        ‘their only friends in this new world are other brown people’

        In my experience, Hindi/Urdu speakers get along very well. Hindi belt Indians actually get along better with Pakistanis than with South Indians. There seems to be a lot more regionalism amongst Indians than among Pakistanis. Probably because India is vastly more diverse. Visa fraud or asylum seeker types stay in their own circles so I cant comment on them.

        This is my experience from studying and working in Europe. Its probably only representative of browns who have grown up in middle income families. Moneyed browns going to US probably have a different mindset.

        1. “In my experience, Hindi/Urdu speakers get along very well. Hindi belt Indians actually get along better with Pakistanis than with South Indians.”

          My experience is quite the opposite. I have been surrounded in a sea of Telugus and Bengalis for decades now. My family and friends are married into Madraasis and Bengalis. All my cousins live in Bangalore, Pune, Chennai,… I do ‘get’ Pakistanis more naturally, I know when they will be nice, I can anticipate when they will be cunts, I listen to coke studio,… but I don’t find much in common with Pakistanis. It is not even religious, I grew up with and around North Indian Muslims, I get along very well with Hyderabadi or Tamil Muslims too. I do accept I have heavy ideological biases.

          People who can marry their daughters to your sons are (capable of being) your people.

          1. >People who can marry their daughters to your sons are (capable of being) your people.

            By that logic, most Indians cannot consider other Indians as ‘their people’, since marriages are caste endogamous. My Sikh friend’s sister decided to marry a non-Jatt, and shit storm followed in their family few years back which is still not resolved to this day.

            Frankly, I find Pakistanis are more concessionary towards Indians than Indians are towards Pakistanis, except for one area and that is dating. Every Pakistani restaurant will hire Indians by the bucket load, but not vice versa. Pakistanis would generally have a first preference towards Indians (apart from Pakistanis) or Bangladeshis when renting out their basements or rental properties.. but this is not true vice versa. In most business ventures, Pakistanis would prefer Indian partners or clients over other nationalities.
            Only when it comes to dating, Indians are more receptive of Pakistanis, Pakistanis quite less so.

          2. @Quereshi

            Maybe in Toronto. Have not seen this in America. Segregation strong among old and Middle aged. Young mix. No trends in dating either here nor there, except among religious orthodox. No Pak or Indian trends with that other than Muslims on average are more orthodox and sequestering of female population, though that breaks down a lot at college age. Even a derogatory term for it: “Ho-Jabi.” American culture tends to be more strongly assimilating than Canadian so maybe that’s why.

            And in diaspora, intercaste marriage is norm in 2nd generation. Frankly inter ethnic Indian is. And interracial is growing a lot. Indian Christians seem most open to it which makes a lot of sense.

          3. “By that logic, most Indians cannot consider other Indians as ‘their people’, since marriages are caste endogamous.”

            Yes, that is true. Truly caste-ist people do not consider other castes their own. But it is dying out. India of 2050 will be far less caste-ist.

            Side note: I do not buy the ‘oppression’ angle in caste based marriages. No one, not even the lower castes historically wanted to marry out of their caste anyways. There was never any ‘aspiration’ into marry higher caste. Caste hierarchy other than dvij Baman-Thakurs being top dogs is complicated/unclear in India. People universally shit on Bamans and Thakurs. India is a thaali. Different but somehow made to work.

            ‘My Sikh friend’s sister decided to marry a non-Jatt, and shit storm followed in their family few years back which is still not resolved to this day.’
            I had a similar Sardar neighbor. His daughter married a Bania, dispute went to court, the Sikh uncle ji abused the judge in court, funny drama. Happy ending.

            “Frankly, I find Pakistanis are more concessionary towards Indians than Indians are towards Pakistanis”

            This is true. Pakistanis abroad are a very nice people. Except of course folks like the UK Mirpuris.

            “except for one area and that is dating.”

            IDK. Mixed bag. We had a Punjabi Shia LUMS girl in grad school, a 6-7 on Indian beauty scale, 8 if you count brains-money. Fake Iranian ancestry, fake English accent. As friends we tried fixing her up with a 8 Telugu guy. It sort of worked but then she wanted the guy to convert with some retarded Mulla logic. Another thing was that just never works out is how entitled Pakistani women can be. Pakistanis really really pedestal their unmarried women. Teen Pussy == Allah, that’s how kind and giving Pakistanis are to girls. NIs are also sort of like that.

            “Every Pakistani restaurant will hire Indians by the bucket load, but not vice versa.”
            I do see there is some truth to it. But mixed bag.

            “Only when it comes to dating, Indians are more receptive of Pakistanis, Pakistanis quite less so.”

            As I said, I have not seen this to clearly concede this. What I do know is that Indians really look down on cousin-marriages. If you dig into NIs enough they will reveal that they consider Pakistanis unpure because of this.

            My own parents were clear forever that they will never ever accept a Muslim bride, not so clear about caste.

          4. “My family and friends are married into Madraasis and Bengalis”

            I guess thats an exception rather than the norm? Ive never come across a North + South couple ever. I remember my very light-skinned Delhi Brahmin friend almost drowning in embarrassment while telling me his cousin had love-married a Mallu guy

          5. “I guess thats an exception rather than the norm?”

            Madrassi men are marrying NI women at alarming rates. Very bad, life-wrecking deal for Madrassis IMO but they want gori chamdi, ‘modern chick, i.e., no moustache’ after watching Rajnikanth or Vikram movies I guess…

            “Ive never come across a North + South couple ever.”
            A part of my family has lived in Bengal for many decades now. Lots of North+South in my circle. Allahabad boy goes to work in Bangalore, marries a girl from Mysore there… I had almost slipped on a Mallu Baman…

            “I remember my very light-skinned Delhi Brahmin friend almost drowning in embarrassment while telling me his cousin had love-married a Mallu guy”
            Maybe because Delhi is well Delhi…

          6. “Another thing was that just never works out is how entitled Pakistani women can be. Pakistanis really really pedestal their unmarried women. Teen Pussy == Allah”

            Dont think a LUMS girl in US is representative of Pakistani women in any way. Pakistani girls in general are long married off by grad school age anyway. They arent given enough time to develop any sort of attitude.

            “It sort of worked but then she wanted the guy to convert with some retarded Mulla logic.”

            Non Muslims are expected to convert if the relationship is to be turned into marriage. Doesnt matter how much of a “modern” Pakistani you are.

            “This is true. Pakistanis abroad are a very nice people. Except of course folks like the UK Mirpuris.”

            Mirpuris are viewed as an oddity in Pakistan too. A bunch of uneducated hill dwellers who suddenly found themselves in UK. They havent gone through the brain-drain filter that that usually keeps out scum. Its the same case with North Africans in Belgium/Netherlands and Turks in Germany.

          7. Bhimrao

            If north Indian Hindus have such an aversion to cousin marriages, why are they marrying South Indians? Needless to say, this is not the real case. Hindus don’t want to marry Muslims because of caste, because of non veg meat diet ( which is considered impure) or because we are considered Maleech. Cousin marriages are not even on the radar.

            Muslims generally don’t make these distinctions and will generally accept a groom from Hinduism if he converts to Islam, in some cases even nominally. In case of a bride they don’t even have to convert in many cases. Generally the Muslims that care about caste or race are doing so because of cultural influence, but this will usually be overridden by Islamic tendency. It’s hard to make your family accept a Shia bride or an out of ethnicity bride than a Hindu or a christian bride who has converted to Islam.

            The reason why there is anxiety over “love jihad” amongst Hindus is because of this reason alone.. Majority Hindus don’t even consider marrying outside of caste let alone religion so when face with a religion where Muslim men openly marry women of Hindu community thereby reducing their prospective marriage pool, this would lead to anxiety.

            No matter what you say, Hindus (practicing and ideological) are relatively very insular.

    2. ‘their only friends in this new world are other brown people’

      Not brown people, just Indians.

      Indians mostly Madraasis, Gujjus, Bhaiyaas and Bengalis have helped me a lot. Pakistanis abroad are a kind people but it is an exaggeration to put them in the same category.

      1. Lol the evil deccanis and Gangus that the Indus Gang (who loves to leave out Gujarat for minor ethnic percentage shift reasons) likes to troll

        I remember when Pakthings bluntly said his goal was to “humiliate gangus.” The best part is that the trolling went down when Mohajir origin Quereshi showed up. They know when to keep space and stoke divisions lmfao. Shows how genuine they are.

  3. A lot is religious hatred based on Dharmic vs. Islamic flash point. That’s well understood. The tacitly understood but not stated is the racial, roughly and consistently along Steppe:AASI lines. No Indians don’t give a shit about genetics mostly, in an academic granular sense. But these physionogmic preferences and trends map onto it well.
    And frankly most of the trolling on here by far is certain NW biradri groups. In India I understand it that their web spaces has more Brahmin-Thakur trolling others. Bengali racial separatist notions are new, but I expect them to rise as Bangladesh continues to improve economically and cosmopolitanize.

    1. Who are these “Bengali racial separatists” you’re talking about, thewarlock? There is no such thing. Bangladesh is not part of India and Bangladeshis/East Bengalis are indeed brown but ethnically apart from Inds/Paks due to reasons I’ve already mentioned (excess 13% Asiatic). This applies to the Assamese and the Himalayan hill natives.

      Trivializing us by calling us “racial separatists” when there has never been any such calls from us is just you downplaying the anthropology of our peoples and the overall area which you can obviously do, free country and all that but be blunt.

      1. hmm so saying that Bengalis are “ethnically apart” based on genetic differences is different from racial separatism?

        1. Baasi,

          So acknowledging very obvious genetic/anthropological/phenotypical differences is wrong now? I guess that means everybody is a racial separatist or something then

          1. Cultural, Religional & Linguistic relations are thrown down the drain here?
            It’s laughable how you label Uttarakhandis, Himachalis, Bengalis, Assamese as non-Indians because of 10-25% East Asian admixture.

            Genetic distances between Pakistanis & South Indians will be greater than South Indian- Bangladeshi. But you say Bangladeshis are still somehow different from this ‘South Asian’ grouping because their basic components are overall same whereas Bengalis have East Asian. This doesnt make sense.

            All of East Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka & Bangladesh form a genetic continuum, despite expected differences.

        2. Blah,

          the himalayans are Indians, they’re minorities anyways. Jaunsairs Kumaonis etc are barely a few million.

          Also, lol. South Indians and North Indians are completely indistinguishable from each other because they have the exact same components in Zagrosian AASI and Steppe. We know this because again, Kumail Nanjiani gets mistaken for Gujarati and South Indian actors even though Sindhis have more Steppe and less AASI than them. Because it doesn’t really matter when they’re the same.

          And yes that’s right. Bangladeshis have 13% Asiatic which other South Indians and North and Centrals and Pakis simply don’t have generally speaking. This results in completely different facial features and phenotypes, no matter the distance on graphs. It makes perfect sense because this is a unique component. Graphs measure genotype, not phenotype, genius.

          Also, Punjabis and Sindhis are well on the Indian cline while Bangladeshis are pulled way off cline because of the Asian admixture. Just an objective fact.

          1. Also I STAND by what I said btw 100%. Check out this girl who posted on r/23andme a month back. She was some Gujarati Lohana or Punjabi Khatri or Sindhi I think and she posted her HarappaWorld results too. She scored 29% S-Indian, 40% Baloch, 14% Caucasian and 10% NE-Euro but she looked like literally every other South Indian person I have ever seen here in Canada despite being extremely far from them on a graph because graphs aren’t correlated with phenotype.
            https://i.vgy.me/wdftja.png

            AASI=chocolate syrup zagrosian:regular milk steppe:vanilla
            you can make it mostly chocolate milk or mostly regular milk but the combination is still going to look and taste similar but if 13% of the glass is a component that has nothing to do with them like orange juice its going to look and taste different

            Also I actually giggled when you assumed that distances on a graph correlate to phenotype. Real clown shit. Just look at the above photo lmao she would be far from there but looks dravidian.

            Meanwhile our guy Razib bhai would be closer to South Indians on graphs but his East Eurasian component gives him very different facial features and he doesnt look Drav

          2. So you agree 10-25% Asian doesnt make these groups non-Indians. Apply the same with Bengalis. The whole Himalayan Indo-Aryan grouping would be around 25 Million+ by the way

            This is all too funny, you think cherrypicking overlaps which obviously are present proves something. Punjabis and Telugus look same to you? Shubman Gill, Virat Kohli look the same as Sanju Samson? I get they can be counted under the same south asian phenotype grouping but so do Bengalis. Also, No one thinks of Uttarakhandi Rajputs as non-Indian phenotypically and they have even more East Asian lmao.

            Genes, Linguistics, Religion, Culture together don’t matter as much as phenotype according to you.
            And your only point falters since Bangladeshis fall under the South Asia phenotype grouping too. Have you seen your cricket team?

          3. blah,

            Uh yeah, are you even reading the comments? I’ve stated specifically that Bangladeshis are South Asian on numerous occasions, where have I stated otherwise? We just don’t look like you guys lmao speaking of cricket teams Shakib al Hasan will definitely not pass as a local outside of Bengal/Assam

            I said the Himalayans are Indian and they are Indian by nationality. Is this guy being serious lmao. Also, I was referring to the actual natives and not Hindi speaker migrants from Bihar or Uttar Pradesh or Punjab and Kumaonis are a few million and Jaunsaris a few 100k. 25 million would include everyone else, google Kumaonis and stuff they are not numerous

            Mahesh Babu is a non-Brahmin South Indian and yep he looks pretty North Indian too. What is your point? I’ve already proven mine considering even the most West Eurasian shifted Khatris/Sindhi looks generic South Indian. North and South Indians look pretty much the same barring extreme outliers. If you want clarification, maybe the North will look like depigmented South Indians. Bangladeshis like myself, dark light medium whatever will still deviate considerably from the South(dravidian), North(punjab to Bihar), Central etc despite obviously sharing genetics because of our significant Eastern blood.

            Here’s another one, 100% South Indian Telangana Reddy with 53% South Indian and 36% Baloch looking like just another North Indian facial feature wise and dare I say skin color wise (I know yall are a touchy lot when it comes to skin tone lmao)
            https://i.vgy.me/F7nTna.jpg

            So yeah yall look the same despite being far from each other and we look different because we have a component which you lack. This is a common trend btw

      2. i’m not going to put a label on your attitude, but it smells similar (tho thank god not as vulgar) to the jats who wander into these parts. that is, tbh, not a compliment from me, but perhaps our values differ so you take it as such.

        1. Razib,
          Thanks for the compliment 😀 🙂
          kidding kidding, its a matter of perspective I’d say so I guess you’re right about the value difference thing

          Tho in my defense here, I focus on the objective stuff. C’mon the North Indian copers like the Jatts are extremely weird, they think they are Mexican conquistador Harnizo Casztizo telenovela actors. Just look at that racelearner weirdo

  4. Hmm.

    The Hindu-Muslim divide is irreconcilable and will probably become more salient as growth, urbanization, demographic transition continue apace. For those who disagree, your chance to correct this…was in the 1920s, you’re about a century too late. Get over it.

    —-

    As for the rest of us, I wonder how much intra-Hindu divisions are exacerbated by anemic growth, chronic unemployment, and poor per capita GDP. Maybe if those things improved, people would be more sanguine about themselves and about India, and less likely to make invidious distinctions between us.

  5. Its not my place to say this, But i do doubt the iq of a lot of folks here for endlessly going on about certain things. My conservatism is based on a historical view/precautionary principle and I am willing to abandon it entirely provided i see a different view of future. I would not want to have to worry about anything. And I will settle for robust institutions and demography for next 200 yrs. The way I see it, the technological revolutions that will happen over next 200 yrs should put us in touch with a new level and plane of existence. I also think that politics changes with iq , if everyone were as smart as einstein, world politics would be different, perhaps we can achieve that in 200 yrs. Lets hope so. I just dont want civilization in general to fall to barbarism and I dont want my civilization to fall to ruin due to either of the monotheisms for next 200 yrs, after that, it is for the people in future to decide. And I am willing to let go even of these things too but as i found out, I do have a sense of civilzational identity i cannot let go, i tried.

  6. i have tried not wanting to worry,try to be a good liberal/left atheist, call upon death of my own civilization as something great and wonderful to look forward to, i just cannot do it, that is not who i am.so, i now know what i must resist. I do think this civilization has something worthwhile to offer to the world.

  7. @Pencilman
    So all you are really talking about here is phenotype, you agree Bangladesh is in the continuum India/South Asia is. Fine then.

    Cherrypicking individuals from North and saying they can pass in South India and vice versa what does this even prove? Overlap is present. So? And even with the on-surface overlap you can tell which region some guy is from due to peculiar features.
    I can cherrypick randomers again but I wouldn’t since it doesnt prove anything

    Your cricket team btw. Do you have something else to say? They are part of the Indian/South Asia continuum.

    https://i0.wp.com/cricketaddictor.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Bangladesh.jpg?w=1296&ssl=1

    Each region has differences in average phenotype. Overlap is present. On whole though they look the same race/category whatever, whether Punjabis or Jharkhandis. And Bengalis fall in this grouping too. No, your 15% Asian doesnt make you special/different.

    1. Blah,
      It seems I should purchase a parrot. You’re literally parroting the exact same things I’m saying over and over again without reading the comments.
      I don’t need to cherrypick tbh they’re just that common. north and south indians and central indians and pakis will look the same before any of them look Bangladeshi and vice-versa. You guys have the same features/bone structure. If anything North Indids/paks are depigmentated South Indians.Hence why the most West Eurasian Khatri/Lohana girl looked South Indian why that Telangana Reddy with 53% S-Indian looked like a generic Punjabi. They have the same 3 components while we have an extra 13% Asian which you guys lack. So yep, North/South etc look Indian with ur punjabi jkarhkandi point. We do not because of this extra admix
      You’re projecting btw. I’m fine with looking Bangladeshi but you and the other Indians love to make yourselves look special and exotic meztisoz or something. Never once have I said we didn’t look like us so yeah. btw all that picture shows it that we’re South Asian, nothing more. Their facial features still look different from Indians and look generic Bangladeshi. Skin tone wise sure you’re right anybody in India/Pakistan can have their skin tone, wonderful observation.

      1. lol Racelearner this girl scores 29% S-Indian, 40% Baloch, 14% Caucasian and 10% NE-Euro and looks like the most stereotypical Indian to ever exist.
        https://vgy.me/u/wdftja

        You can’t cope with this because she even posted her face with the results lmao. Punjabis are the most generic looking Indian people in existence, this is a fact. Same for the other people in that region, just like Kumail Nanjiani who said he gets confused for Kunal Nayyar and Gujaratis like Kal Pen or how Karan Brar is a Punjabi and used in meme templates to make fun of Indians because of how stereotypical Indian he is or Rishi Sunak another typical looking Indian who is Khatri or Ro Khanna and the list goes on.

        Or on 6ixbuzz online where ever single international student is Punjabi Jatt or something and still made fun of as Indian because thats what they look like lol.

        Reality will always disagree with your delusions

        1. More BS from jealous Indians with high AASI. Aryan Central Asians look like what they are, Caucasians or Whites with Iranic or Slavic appearances. Im not surprised to hear that Punjabis are thought of as South Asian in Canada, after all Punjabi means absolutely nothing, it’s a region with hundreds of ethnic groups spanning the cline from Tamils to Pashtuns.

          And unfortunately for you, 99% of the Punjabis that happen to migrate to Canada are the lower/middle/mixed non-Biradri ones. Sikhs are more mixed than Dharmics anyway and even Dharmic Punjabis in general are nothing like Haryanvi biradris and high castes. Punjabis look like mixed Latinos or in some cases Dravidians, depending on their origins. The rare endogamous Biradris in Punjab either still live there or in the NCR and have little to no representation outside India unfortunately.

          Anyway, I’m not even Punjabi, so I don’t care much about them. In my small community, there’s hardly a diaspora outside South Asia, so no one even knows about us, and wherever we stay, we’re considered anything but Indian. I look nothing like Indians for instance, and people think of me as anything but South Asian and I’m just a generic person from my community. Everyone else I know has the same experience, to the point that people laugh at them when they mention anything about India.

          I suppose our phenotypes speak for themselves. We are Aryans unlike 99% of Indians who are now mixed to the point that they look generic, either Latino or Dravidian. Anyway, your BS rants won’t change my real life lived experiences and reality, nor will they change the fully Caucasian phenotype of Aryan Jaats and other South Central Asians. And please don’t link me to obscure websites where high AASI FOBs and losers like you congregate, no one has ever heard of such cesspools in the US. Please keep this nonsense to yourself. I’m glad they think of these losers as Indians, they will never think of us as Indians in that case anyway. Enjoy living in denial.

  8. It’s astonishing how different South Asians look from each other and it’s no surprise that they are so different from each other genetically. It’s a racial divide. You have South Asians scattered all along the PCA from East and SE Asians to Latin Americans, Central Asians and West Asians. We have Pashtuns and Balochis and Rors and Jaats that look fully West Asian or Slavic on one end, and Tamil Dalits that look conspicuously Indian on the other end, with SE Asian looking Bengalis and Indigenous Latino looking Gujarati and generic North Indians in between.

    In such a huge genetic and phenotypic continuum, there can be no uniformity or homogeneity. Nor can there be any unity. After all, it is akin to trying to unite Eritreans and Saudis or Sudanese and Coptic Egyptians or Maghrebi North Africans and Nigerians, or Uzbeks and Turkish people, or Hazaras and Russians. Simply insane talk. Nation states need a majority ethnicity to function well. India has 5000 different ones from its very inception.

    The whole concept of India is an artificial construct, catalyzed by the British Raj and its divided and rule driven imperialism. Nehruvian Socialism and Sardar Patel’s ill conceived idea of an Indian Union on the lines of the former USSR also massively failed and now every single soul living within the boundaries of this arbitrarily created nation has to suffer the same fate. Without balkanization India is doomed. The only other option is for the country to mix on a massive scale or to eject it’s minorities to foreign lands. Otherwise with current endogamy and division India will always be a joke.

    1. lmfao your every comment is a joke.
      genotype wise every South Asian ethnicity is just its own thing, if anything there is a continuum. west asian,castizo and what not this is retarded. Can’t ethnicities just look like, what they are?
      Phenotypically too again own profile with continuum
      https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTjIb04PGBk8ruefV99T3I1b7YLNKZeO6e5eQ&usqp=CAU
      If these Jats look Iranian then you need to get your head checked. They fall under the same category as other South Asians like Biharis on whole. Whatever differences there are, are within this grouping.

    2. there literally is genetic continuum present.
      again cultural,social,religious, linguistic things are apparently not to be considered. Accept it, the nation-state of India has a basis

      phenotypes again. There is a pan south asian/indian grouping. Ethnicites within have variation & they are still their own thing. No need of this mestizo,castizo,west asian bs. Can’t ethnicities just look like what they are

      https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTjIb04PGBk8ruefV99T3I1b7YLNKZeO6e5eQ&usqp=CAU

      Jats. If you think these are won’t be considered generic ‘Indian’ by others, you are just lying to yourself.

      1. I’m not going to get into a debate about phenotypes here. If you want to believe that those are Jaats with 47% Steppe and 10-15% AASI that cluster as west shifted as Kalash and Kandahar Pashtuns, be my guest. You clearly have no idea how complicated Clan and Subclan and biradris work in NW India. 90% of the people who are UC or Jaat or Kamboj on paper are all lower castes and Dalits who have claimed the identity recently (Sanskritization).

        It’s why on any PCA, there are four groups of Jaats, (or Khatris, or Kambojas) one near UP Chamars, one near Haryanvi Baniyas, one near Kashmiri Pandits and one near Pashtuns and other South Central Asians. It goes without saying that they all look very different from each other. The Jaats that I have seen with 10-15% AASI and 40-48% Steppe look fully West Eurasian, either West Iranic or Slavic and stand out like a sore thumb in NW South Asia. You are just another misinformed and disgruntled South Asian with tons of AASI that is trying to weave a false narrative of pan south Asian unity. Write whatever you want, I know and have seen the facts with my own eyes. These Central Asians are aliens in South Asia.

        The funny thing is, even these high AASI Jats with Dom and Chamars origins look completely distinct to Bengalis, South Indians and Gujaratis as a whole because they have a distinct AASI strain to other South Asians. They pass with ease as Latin Americans while most Indians look just “Indian” which is a native look only found among Dravidians with their unique AASI strain. And terms like Mestizos literally apply to them as they are equal mixes of West and East Eurasian etc. even the term caste is based on Western origins you dimwit. Your goal of pan South Asian unity is nothing but stupid fantasy.

        1. Racelearner,
          LMAOOO you Punjabis are the most generic looking Indians in the history of the world, your comments are one big coooope
          Here’s your precious little 29% South Indian, 40% Baloch, 14% Caucasian and 10% NE-Euro Khatri/Lohana looking like a standard Indian.
          https://i.vgy.me/wdftja.png
          How are you going to do the damage control with this? She posted her face with her results lmao
          Karan Brar looks typical Indian, Rishi Sunak a Punjabi Khatri looks Indian and nobody thinks the dark brown guy looks like anything else, Ro Khanna looks Indian and even all the other ones look generic Indian. Keep writing bs essays tho loool

          Just check any post on 6ixbuzz, all the international students that are Punjabi are visibly Indian and made fun of as such (not by me but by others). You can keep trying to run away from your identity but it won’t change the fact that you look stereotypical Indian

          1. If you want to believe that all NW South Asians look like generic Indians, be my guest, my Dalit friend. I’m not here to convince anyone that is willfully ignorant. My face and those faces that I have seen speak for themselves.
            None of these are Punjabi btw. Nor am I Punjabi.

            Anyway, I’ve read enough nonsense comments on this blog from high AASI folks like you, keep coping with your BS, Aryan Central Asian Jaats, Kambojas and Khatris that cluster with Kalash and Pashtuns and Ishkashimi Tajiks will continue to look Iranian and Slavic and White regardless of your sophistry and desperate brownwashing.

            Fester in your jealousy and envy. I enjoy it immensely. Too bad it won’t change reality my Brown friend. Yeah I’m sure those Gwaalas who profess to be Jaats are between 40-47% Steppe and 10-15% AASI. I wonder why the Jaats that I know with more than 40% Steppe look like a completely different race, and nothing like Indians or South Asians. Look at these bonafide Haryanvi Jaats and weep, my brown friend:

            https://ibb.co/3Wqpr1S
            https://ibb.co/LYqYr1m
            https://ibb.co/vQ0L2W9
            https://ibb.co/4fTjyC3
            https://ibb.co/hKG3Tt5

            Thousands more examples where those came from. Every single one of them looks FULLY West Iranian, 100% Caucasian, and has NOTHING to do with Indians, both by phenotype and their Oracles/PCA position and admixture profiles. These are true Aryan Central Asian descendants of Scythians and you are nothing like them. They pass with ease all throughout the Caucasus, even in Turkey and up to/including in the Balkans.

            And I have seen their results, they have in excess of 40% Steppe, on average around 45% Steppe, and between 10-15% AASI total. They’re definitely not Indians nor are they part of the pan-Indian phenotype or cline. I’m sure that causes you much pain. Deal with it. Keep writing more BS and keep spreading falsehoods. The true Aryans will continue to exist and live on, unbothered by your bullshit fantasies and delusions. I’m done talking here. Better things to do with my time. Enjoy the hard truths.

  9. “you have Insecurities, you are wannabes” blah blah I am not here to have an insult-exchange. You can have them with others.

    You are basically accepting that there is pan South Asian/Indian phenotypic grouping and East Pakistanis,Indians,Bengalis,SL,Nepalis fall within that.

    But here’s the thing. The inter-variation present is apparently only prominent enough for Bengalis according to you. That’s just plain wrong. North to Central to South Indians have phenotypic variation too, your cherrypicking to show otherwise doesnt stand true. They are just individual overlaps. Call me a parrot but that’s because you are denying this fact again & again.

    1. Blah,

      You have astoundingly bad reading comprehension, wow. Where the fuck did variation come into this, when did I deny it? There’s variation within North South Central Indians and Pakis ofc but they still look “Indian” facial feature wise, we don’t. I’m talking about the average facial features and bone structures, generally speaking and how North and Suth and etc Indians generally look the same features/structure wise with variations in skintone and this was proven from the highly West Eurasian Khatri girl who scored 29% S-Indian and 40% Baloch and 14% Caucasian+10% NE Euro looking exactly like a South Indian while a Telugu Reddy who scored 36% Baloch and 53% S-Indian looked like a generic Punjabi North Indian. You could give make a dark light or medium skintoned Bangladeshis will look different because of different facial features/structure brought forward by 13% Asian. Just a fact, but they’ll obviously be brown.

      The hilarious thing here is that both of them posted pictures with results so no matter what anyone says to cope, it won’t change the ground realities lmao especially Racelearner’s copes.

  10. @Pencilman

    Those whatever reddit individuals are apparently overlaps between North and South. No one is talking about this. The thing is that on AVERAGE, there is considerable difference. Even if both get by with the Indian/South Asian label.
    Now, you think Bengalis don’t fall under this. Well, they do. I just linked your cricket team and most of them will very easily get by in the Indian diversity. If you don’t believe so, then that’s just a wannabe different situation we have and there is no cure.

    @ RaceLearner

    Your whole point doesnt have a basis lmao. Those members of Jat organised protest are apparently not Jat but larpers? If you want “confirmed” full Jats then take
    Pradeep Sangwan, Deepak Hooda, Rahul Tewatia , Ashish Nehra etc all are easily Indian-looking.
    Genotype too distances of these Jats will be closer to Rajasthan Brahmins than Tajiks. “Disgruntled South Asian with tons of ASI” this is embarassing from you

    https://data1.ibtimes.co.in/en/full/545747/woman-paraded-naked-india-panchayat.jpg?h=450&l=50&t=40

    https://cdn.dnaindia.com/sites/default/files/styles/full/public/2014/06/16/244071-khap-panchayat-rna.jpg

    Khap Panchayat of your 48 Steppe Jats (they are around 35 you can stop inflating). They are so generically Indian even with their own phenotype that your ‘stick out like a sore thumb’ statement is a joke.
    What’s the point though you will start coping with ‘they are not Jat’ again. You are a gone case with your castizo/mulatto bs.
    Man these trying to be special with phenotype South Asians are so annoying.

    1. Blah,
      The cricket team of Bangladesh looks very Bangladeshi, they’re certainly not going to look like any Indian person unless that Indian person happens to be a legit Bengali or Assamese person.
      All the pics you’re using as a gotcha moment against me just show that they’re brown, nothing else which we are and never denied it either.
      North and SOuth and Central Indians and Pakis all have the same facial features with varying skin tones. I’ve already posted that Khatri girl from reddit and that telugu reddy guy from reddit to show my point lmao even if Bangladeshis are dark or light they will have different facial features. Just a simple objective fact which you couldn’t disprove with my examples

      Also good pictures, all those West Eurasian Jats look stereotypically Indian in facial features hahahaha

      1. I get your point. But the same can be said for variations within what you call North-Central-South India. They can be classified as one grouping but you can still tell which subregion particular individuals are from.

        https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQx7rX6FVZQ7lgrPrbTtVqi50IlmCyhVRIS4w&usqp=CAU

        Sindhi Lohanas. They look brown but you can still tell they are not Telugu Reddys.

        Again with the Individual overlaps. Zakir Hasan, a Bangladeshi cricketer, can pass in Jharkhand just as easily. I really can’t see how Bangladeshis are a separate grouping in all of Indic South Asia.

        1. lmao those Sindhi Lohanas look generic Indian as fuck, and look like literally any other South Indian. What is this desperate coping mechanism? Just lol tbh many of them look like that Telugu Reddy guy from Reddit that I posted hahaha
          Also lol at you trying to Indianize us. The desperation really is pathetic. The only Indians that are going to look like native Bangladeshi people, are going to be other Bengalis or Assamese people. your jharkand people whatever the fuck that is are going to look like darker North Indians or something before us.
          Also found the guy you’re talking about and he looks pretty Bangladeshi to me, not Indian. Plus, there were a couple million migrants from India from Partion till 1972 so there is that angle which I could have used.
          https://i.vgy.me/VYPmzI.png
          His skin tone varies from light to very dark but even when he’s dark or light, he looks Bangladeshi. His eyes, lips/palate region,and face shape would make him stand out amongst Central/North/South/Pakis even if they were as light or as dark as him. Again you’re randomly pointing out that he’s brown when that’s true but not the point lmao, still doesn’t look Indian

          1. trying to “indianise”? you are already a part of the indian continuum i don’t even need to debate that

            No they don’t. You are not familiar with Indian sub-groups then. This Khatri guy isn’t passing in South Indian masses. Neither do Shubman Gill, Virat Kohli, Yuvraj Singh. Again same ‘brown’ category for North & South Indians, and overlaps will be present but no way you are denying obvious differences.

            https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTKL6o5JUdjtpU-znJJ0Rw6OQ0bzcRUTL9o6Q&usqp=CAU

            Yes that guy passes in Jharkhand. If you get all into it with palates/eyes or whatever I could tell the Telugu Reddy guy you were using is South Indian and not Punjabi. You are just using certain points whenever they suit your agenda.

            These Bangladeshis overlap with South India/Sri Lanka. You don’t have a basis anymore.
            https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTCKm_fVGDJZi10HaPErQaAOmKU5A4vXyUX3Q&usqp=CAU
            https://img1.hscicdn.com/image/upload/f_auto,t_ds_square_w_320,q_50/lsci/db/PICTURES/CMS/345000/345078.png

          2. dude. there are legit enough gujus who look just like him. I stayed in Hyderabad for a few months. Even more people there who fit the bill well

        2. lol Bangladeshis are brown but we don’t look Indian. Those Sindhis all look pretty Indian, just like that Khatri girl or that Reddy guy that I posted tho hahah

          Also Zakir Hasan doesn’t look Indian you really have no idea what you’re talking about, nor does he look Jharkand whatever that is. Those people would look Indian on the other hand

          He has a different face shape, palate, lips, eyes and overall structure and would stand out amongst North/South/Central etc Indians/Paks, even if they had the same color as him. He looks very Bangladeshi facial feature wise. Same goes for the other cricket players you keep talking about lol
          i.vgy.me/VYPmzI.png

          Just delusional, absolutely delusional is what you are.

          Some really

  11. Is this bracketing sound? Typically an Iranian is genetically closer to a Pakistani than a Tamil right? Isn’t the world just one genetic cline.

    1. Clines can be bracketed too. Given the distance the average Punjabi is closer to populations in East compared to the West.
      Also this Indian Cline breaks off West of Punjab.
      As to specific distances to Tamils or Iranians. They will still be closer to Tamils.

      South Chinese will be closer to South-East Asians than North Chinese populations. China still has its own cline so it doesnt really mean anything.

  12. i banned racelearner cuz his comments went beyond the cringe-line. you don’t need to reply to them. honestly i kind of found them pathetically funny sometimes…but the cringe overwhelmed the amusement due to #weWestAsianAckchually

    1. yes the comments were funny but what’s funnier is the fact that all of his bs could be destroyed with a single pic of a jat crowd. All you can hear after this is ‘they are not Jat they are Dalits larping’ lmao which, unfortunately for him is not the case

      1. there are lots of jats in the central valley. among my students wide range of phenotype (tho the chubby ones were usually confused for Mexicans before u knew their name)

        1. They ofcourse have variation like other communities do. Some individuals may even reach a very ‘West Eurasian look’ but on average they pass easily in the Indian diversity. You can see the Jat crowds I have posted.
          Well, even on average they are more ‘west shifted’ than other Indians which makes sense given their genotype but to say they stick out in India. No way lmao. They still look ‘Indian’

    2. I for one want to applaud all of us here. We ignored that race learner guy completely so much that he would alternate between wallowing in west Eurasian martial supremacy and at the same time pleading with us non-martial darkies that balkanization is good for us 😄.

  13. This is for you ‘blah’,
    The difference is actually very significant tbh between us and the IndoPaks. Take this comment as an example. Arnab is a Bangladeshi-Canadian like myself and here is his tiktok. He looks so different from the Indian look that people actually think he is Indian mixed with Chinese lol that’s how much we deviate we deviate from you guys in terms of facial feature/bone structure/taxonomy. You guys look a certain way and we don’t look like that due to the Asiatic shift, it’s that simple. We look so different that you have to consider a hypothetical mix even lmao
    vgy.me/RjLELq.jpg
    Compare that to Indians no matter where they are from that look like darker or lighter versions of each other
    vgy.me/u/wdftja
    vgy.me/u/F7nTna
    It’s just too significant, sorry. We’re still brown which you keep repeating for some reason but we dont look like you, sorry. I went to get some food at this place and the owners asked where I was from and they guessed correctly that I was from Bangladesh, not India. It’s that simple.

    1. Yes Bengalis have their own look, so do other Indian groups.

      I can guess whether someone is Punjabi or Tamil too. It’s that simple.

      1. Bangladeshis are not Indian. Tamils and Punjabis have the same facial features and generally look similar and Indian. We have different facial features/structure we dont look Indian like you. Tamils are just dark skinned Punjabis feature wise.

        1. this is false. blah is right. just repeating yourself won’t change the facts. you can look at facial averages. south indians are quite distinct from NW indians from bengalis. all have their looks. gujus have their looks, and some indian castes (iyers) have their looks.

          but all look brown and all call themselves indians or hindus or hindustanis.

          1. tbh I’ve only been repeating myself because blah seems to gloss over my comments else I’ve given examples as well with their genetic admixture results they posted with their selfies. He can’t handle the facts.

            The Lohana girl looked South Indian despite having 29%-S.Indian with 14% Caucasian and 10% NE-Euro while the Reddy with 53% S.Indian and 36% Baloch looked North Indian because he was lighter. Why? Because doesnt matter if theyre north south central etc Indian they have the same features with varying skin tone
            North=Kashmir to Bihar

            Point was even with their looks they look Indian, light or dark that’s just how it is because they have the same facial features/structure. Doesn’t really work for the Bangladeshi-Canadian tiktoker I posted who deviated so hard from the Indian look that people thought he was a mixed Indian/Chinese. That’s how impactful the extra admix is.

  14. this style of argument where you point to a girl or guy and say “look at what they look like” is retarded.

    there are facial averages from regions. the differences are clear. you are wrong. it’s obvious. no matter how many times you repeat yourself.

  15. Allama Iqbal’s son waxing eloquent on how Jinnah used PK only as bargaining chip and was ready to accept Cabinet mission plan ie. Confederated India.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/omarali50/status/1617023796485197825.
    He even gleefully notes that they could have got entire PB and Bengal under their part. The part left unsaid is they could have cleansed more land of kaffirs. 71 clearly demonstrated that these are not well meaning people.
    Not content with having made a mess of PK, he goes on to give strategic advice to IN on how it should not become a vassal of west. Instead he suggests an independent Kashmir whose neutrality is guaranteed by IN, PK, RU and CN. Further he suggests a south Asian union like the eu. He rues the main difficulty as IN being much larger than others unlike eu. Again the part left unsaid is that IN should be Balkanized for south Asian union to be possible. In other words divide and conquer.
    PK seems to be acting like a petulant lover spurned by the west.
    The way the regime change mafia is scraping the barrel they might latch on to this idea as well.

  16. Blah is unhappy cuz the Lohana girl looks Sri Lankan South Indian despite getting Khatri West Eurasian shifted results lmao.

    Keep posting those dark skinned Bangladeshis btw they look as dark as Sri Lankans but have significantly different facial features. NW Indians like the girl from reddit will actually look South Indian.

    Hilarious when people like Kumail Nanjiani a Sindhi NW Indian type gets confused for any other Indian actor that you say ur Khatri or Kohli or Singh will look different lmao Insians are out of touch with reality

    1. Kumail Nanjiani isn’t sindhi he is a muhajir from Karachi. Most likely of Gujarati background.

      1. Wise guy,

        Every source has him as Sindhi lol even his name on the sites is mentioned as Sindhi plus his last name is Sindhi.

        On the other hand there is no proof that he is mujahir unlike Riz Ahmed. Stop making up lies to cope lol jesus the audacity

        1. I’m not lying, those types of surnames ending with ‘ani’ can also be found among muslims from Gujarat. Trusting random online sources isn’t always accurate. Never seen Kumail Nanjiani mention he is Sindhi.

    2. Pencilman, I’m Bengali but dear god your arguments on here sound downright delusional. No one cares if Bengalis have 10% East Asian admixture in real life and no one uses it to separate them from Indians. In the aggregate, they all look broadly similar and if you want to differentiate between them, Bengalis and everyone else are certainly not the categories that you’d discern.

      Go outside

      1. Frosty,

        It’s 12-13% Asiatic for Bangladeshis. I could care less what Indian Bengalis think about themselves lol they are quite literally a differnt population and altogether unless they are descended from East Bengal and yes many of them do look generic Indian because many have admixed with non-Bengalis, are Bengali Brahmins or just generally Zagrosian/AASI enriched and less Asian to like 4% Asian levels in West Bengal sometimes.

        Sorry my comments put a wrench on your “we are same same brozzer” ethno-nationalism lmao you seem to care quite a bit to reply

        The only thing we are is being brown, that’s it. If we look the same as you Indians, than so does every Oriental person and every white person.

        1. “The only thing we are is being brown, that’s it. If we look the same as you Indians, then so does every Oriental person and every white person.”

          This is also going a bit too far I think. Bangladeshis still look South Asian.

          It is similar to Finnish people for eg. who have significant east asian admix and is evident in their features, but they still look broadly North European.

        2. Pencilman, I couldn’t care less about “ethnonationalism”, I just find the cognitive dissonance you have to be hilarious. “Diversity outside of Bengal doesn’t matter, the only diversity that does is Bengal and everywhere else”. Do you know how stupid that sounds?

  17. There are 2 aspects to this:
    1- Objective genetic facts. Indians aren’t West Asians genetically, even if some are slightly closer than others are to West Asians (small differences in West Asian- South Asian sub population gaps shouldn’t be extended to closer South Asians are actually West Asians, that is ridiculous). Same applies to other claims of the similar nature. However, at the same time, the Indian cline precludes the notion of one-ness, since that would imply no distinction between sub-populations. The fact that Indians are smeared over a cline or two means different groups are distinct. Even if you started with the exact same proportions of all ancestries, if these groups practiced endogamy long enough, they’d become distinct; and adding to that different proportions of ancestor groups yields the Jati situation. For some perspective, the distance between Rors and Gujarati Brahmins, as well as the distance between Gujarati Brahmins and regular Gujarati people is comparable to the distance between Northern French and Polish peoples.

    2. The issue of subjective identification. When it comes to this I am libertarian, I think groups should be allowed to identify as being distinct or as kinds of other groups. If 2 different populations come together and identify as kins/one thats fine, if 2 different populations refuse to identify as kins/one then that is also fine. I don’t see this as virtue vs vice, only agreement vs disagreement.

  18. People on this site accurately guessed that I was from Gujarat / western india region when I posted my pic here.

    So I think there are certain looks distinctive even for someone with fairly middling south asian steppe/ ivc/ aasi admix like me.

    I also think no doubt tamils, punjabis, bangladeshis etc all have distinctive looks.

    In real life the most common ‘race’ non-south asian people think I am is ‘Muslim’.

    1. Basically both extremes are wrong.

      One likes to deny overlap, which is honestly pretty big in many cases, especially for outsiders.

      Other likes to to do sem2sem.

      Reality is in the middle. That’s why I get guessed all over. I’m a generic brown desi dude.

  19. blah: “All of East Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka & Bangladesh form a genetic continuum, despite expected differences.”

    So do West Pakistanis with Afghans, and Afghans with Iranians, NE Indians with Burmese, and Burmese with Thai.. so on.

    In fact all of Eurasia is a genetic continuum. Too bad no single colonial power could unite all Eurasia.. we could be one country with Germans and Yakuts. 🙂

  20. J Khan
    No. It’s not the same. The cline kind of breaks off with a significant gap between the average pashtun and the average punjabi.(ofcourse its not a major gap which is practically impossible but you can literally form the boundaries of India with it) compare with the east, haryana & rajasthan form a smooth continuum with punjab
    Similarly in the Eastern front, Assamese cline would break off with Tibeto-Burman non-Hindus.
    Just the cultural,linguistic,religious relations are enough for an Indian continuum. But over that we have a genetic one too.
    Does this bother you?

    1. Do you think an average Punjabi and and average Pasthun have more in common or do you think an average Punjabi and an average Tamil have more in common, genetically, linguistically, culturally etc?
      South Punjab and Sindh is filled with ‘Iranic’ Baluch (upto 40-50% of the population) and have intermixed as well. KPK is full of Gandharan Hindkowan that share more similarities with north eastern Pasthuns than they do with average Indian Punjabi..

      People trying to find gaps here to fulfil their own agendas.

    2. @Blah you are fooling yourself. First you have decided that the cline has to break off at certain places for your idealized ‘Indian people’ to exist, then manufacturing those breaking points in your mind with very little education on the subject.

      There is nothing called average Pashtun or average Punjabi. Northern Pashtuns are genetically close to Hindko and Kohistanis, who are in turn very similar to many Punjabi subgroups. The Punjabi Kamboj are more Pashtun shifted than Kohistanis. The Jatt, Arain, Awan, Khatri, Rajput they all belong to 2 different clines, one leading towards Pashtuns (higher BMAC) and one leading towards Sindhis (very high Iran_N). If there has to be a break in cline, it’s between Biradari Punjabis and Dalit Punjabis, because Dalit Punjabis are similar to Northern Indian mid-castes.

      I know people in North-East are identical to people in East Asia, and I’m not going to argue with you on that.

      Why do you beg to be associated with us? Inferiority complex? Are you not happy with your women? You are 1.4 billion people, so there’s 700 million women. What keeps you unhappy?

  21. So do West Pakistanis with Afghans, and Afghans with Iranians, NE Indians with Burmese, and Burmese with Thai.. so on.

    the gap btwn Iranians and south asians is pretty big. this includes paks/afghans. you don’t know the underlying genetics so you are just bullshitting

    overall this thread has gone full retard so i’m closing it.

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