Open Thread – Brown Pundits

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56 Replies to “Open Thread – Brown Pundits”

  1. https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AwrXgiIgEFpe0lAAHBZ35O1_;_ylu=X3oDMTByN3UwbTk1BGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwM5BHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg–?qid=20130725032931AARRI9P
    “Actually if you go to Google and search are Bengali men then you will find searches like good,intelligent,smart,lovers etc

    Ever since few of us Bengali Hindu(Brahmin/upper caste) posted about the achievments of people of West Bengal,i.e the achievements of Bengali Hindu(Brahmin/upper caste) or Christian/Anglo community in the following blog-INDIAN/CHINESE IQ PUZZLE people in US/UK are becoming more interested in Bengali people.

    But remember that Muslim Bengali have 75 IQ and literacy only 55% while Bengali Btrahmin have IQ 115-122 which is more than Ashkenazi JEW…so people will be interested only in Bengali Hindu people living in US,not backward,less educated Muslim peasant class Bengali.

    Read my comments in that blog-Indian/Chinese Iq puzzle(well i’m an inventor & Physicist but I will forever remain bachelor).So rather than asking this question you better concentrate on your own future.”

    Is it true that Bengali Brahmins and upper castes are even smarter than Ashkenazi jews?…personally, I have encountered both smart and dumb

    And is it true that Bengali muslims (including atheist “muslims”) are intellectually inferior due to genetic reasons? Any research based evidence? I have seen several such claims online.Similar claims of genetic inferiority were popular among some early Hindu nationalists from WB…I was just wondering if there is really any scientific evidence

    and where do I find the average iq lists of south Asian groups? I am an ignorant person. So be my messiah

    1. You are acting dumb for thinking that certain groups (including yours) are low iq than other groups. It’s just about education and upbringing of the child. My perception people who follow religion blindly don’t accept the scientific facts and are eager to dismiss the facts and move on living with their life.
      Non believers are more scientific and want evidence and proof for some statements.
      Bengali Brahmins are highly educated in arts, philosophy, sciences etc and also they were the pioneers of Bengali rennessaince hence their children or descendents are educated in Western Europe or USA for higher studies and hence their IQ increases .

      1. Genetics is important…but bengalis (specially muslims) have enough east asian ancestry which should make us smarter….

        actually some caste groups did claim that they are intellectually superior…and yeah some early Hindu nationalist from WB claimed that Bengali Muslims are racially and intellectually inferior…and many upper caste Hindus still believe it. May be they said this because of some untouchability issues..idk (yes untouchability regarding people born to muslim families was a real thing. it is even mentioned in Sheikh Mujibur Rahman’s autobiography)…but may be in most cases they are providing fake info

        A fairly good number of super smart people I know are religious.

        Yes religion can actually improve cognition. For example, Muslim prayers(5 times a day) or Buddhist meditation if performed with super-devotion can serve as mindfulness meditation
        https://www.lifehack.org/articles/lifestyle/10-amazing-benefits-mindfulness-backed-science.html
        But also remember that vast majority of followers are not that devoted.

        Religion can give us hope and positive attitude and it has been experimentally proven that ppl with positive attitude and hope do better

        Gratitude to the god can keep people happy and gratitude can have a positive impact on your brain
        https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/how_gratitude_changes_you_and_your_brain

        In short, religion can make a person smarter if he is truly committed

    2. A peasant doesn’t matter which community he belongs, would have low IQ cuz all he needs to know is how to farm. The factual comparison must be made between students of both groups to see which group has better IQ; an example would be Kolkata brahmin students vs BUET(Bangladesh University of Engineering and Technology) students.

    3. Bro, where are you getting these IQ numbers? First of all, national IQ scores are cherrypicked bullshit, including the supposedly low South Asian scores. Second, there is zero evidence that caste groups have genetically higher or lower IQs than other castes. There’s also no evidence that Ashkenazi Jewish IQ is as high as HBD people say it is.

      1. First of all, national IQ scores are cherrypicked bullshit

        Apparently Richard Lynn calculated many nations’ IQs not through any surveys or measurements but by collecting neighboring countries IQs and averaging them. Rinse and repeat.

        Can there be a more asinine method?

        1. Perhaps my favorite example of how beyond untrustworthy Richard Lynn is, is when he used the IQ scores of severely mentally disabled orphans in Spain, and then used those scores as the average IQ of Equitorial Guinea.

          Nothing you say should be taken as credible after something like that, imo, but that’s just one example of Richard Lynn’s BS.

          http://community.bowdoin.edu/news/2017/09/bowdoins-maceachern-on-fast-science-and-the-myth-of-african-national-iq/

        2. I have read somewhere that there is casual racism attached to all this IQ tests and all. Like white>> black and all. Is there any truth to it?

      2. Indo-Carib

        See you get worried by all this stuff that others say (or test).

        Forget about European attitudes and thinking of us black peoples.

        According to North Indians and Aryans concepts us Sri Lankans, at the very least I, are small short jungle monkeys.

        When one is confident of the Jungle monkey heritage, IQ goes up too.

        1. David Becker is not a scientist. He may be even less reliable than Richard Lynn, but he has the same biases and writes for the same pseudojournals.

  2. For the last decade or so, I have been frustrated by the general lack of awareness among Indians about Anti-Defection Laws. And these are people who opine on politics all the time. So I wrote an explainer article.
    I’d love it if some of the smart people here could present their thoughts on ADL and also if they see a realistic path to the abrogation of these laws.

    “No One Really Talks About the Single Biggest Problem With Indian Democracy”

    https://spaceofpossibilities.wordpress.com/2020/02/28/no-one-really-talks-about-the-biggest-problem-with-indian-democracy/

    1. Good job!

      The Parliament is less of a law making body and more of an electoral college

      Indeed. We have in effect a Presidential form of government, but with no Legislature to check-and-balance the Executive. (Or, the Legislature is simply a rubber stamp for the Executive.)

      To pass a new law, you just need to convince 2-3 party presidents instead of the 270-odd members of Parliament.

      And if we end up with 2 people who are worshiped cult-like by their followers, they end up running the country like dictators (or duumvirates.) You know who I am talking about.

      I have quibbles with some of your suggestions though.

      Ability to recall MPs and MLAs
      – Having lived in California, which has a culture of recalls and direct referenda, I’m not a fan of this idea. It sort of fixes the problem of too little democracy, but then it creates a system where whoever shouts the loudest or who has the money to advertize their position the loudest tends to win. The members of the legislature have no incentive to hammer out compromises among each other.
      (I’d say strict term limits are sufficient.)

      The judiciary should be elected or appointed by elected representatives
      – You mean directly by the public? God, no! Have you seen the quality of people who get elected to Parliament? Do you want a glorified bandit from the UP boondocks becoming a Supreme Court judge?
      (Appointed by elected representatives, sure! The American system’s process for appointing judges to the bench suffers from political partisanship, but by and large, it is effective at putting highly qualified people on the bench.)

      1. “I have quibbles with some of your suggestions though.”
        @Numinous

        I am cognizant of some of these. Will elaborate on them in future articles, hopefully.

    2. The anti defection law is the only workable law in Indian context. All this fanciful ideas which diaspora woke Indians have of “recall law” and all are just that, fanciful.

      The Gautam Bhatia and Madhav Khosla of the world, having grown up in the bubble of protected UC- U-class urban areas and then taking their first flight to west, they feel India is some western democracy.

      Yeah take out the ADL and then see whatever sanity remains in India parliament system crumble down, finally making us the banana republic which the woke Indians think we are already anyway.

      1. “All this fanciful ideas which diaspora woke Indians have of “recall law” and all are just that, fanciful.”

        I am neither diaspora nor am I woke. I don’t have any relatives I can flee abroad to.
        Dismissing every new idea as ‘fanciful’ is as stupid as calling for a communist revolution. Institutions have a shelf life and they die in the absence of maintenance. There are ways to experiment with changes without putting the whole country at risk. We need to figure those ways out.

        “Yeah take out the ADL and then see whatever sanity remains in India parliament system crumble down, finally making us the banana republic which the woke Indians think we are already anyway.”

        Generous of you to assume that the current parliamentary system has any sanity at all. Better to live in a banana republic than in the Truman show of Indian democracy.

        There is middle ground possible where you only apply ADL to no-confidence votes and not to any ‘anti-party’ activity.

        In any case, as I mention in the article, long term change requires change in culture and cynicism is not going to achieve that.

        Btw I was anticipating this exact response from you almost word for word. I had expected one of Madhav Khosla or Gautam Bhatia but you mentioned both 😛

        1. “I had expected one of Madhav Khosla or Gautam Bhatia but you mentioned both ”

          LOL, i am that good. Whats up with this woke UC punjabis running around trying to be the savior of mankind. With that third joker Chandrachud, soon we will now have laws of Scandinavia with implementation power of Nigeria. Very apt for a country with per capita income of 2k and having delusions of being a world power.

          Anyway on a serious note, right to recall is a stupid idea at onset and it will only create more de-stabilization where Govt are formed and fell by one vote. What happens if the recall is of that MP who holds that crucial vote? This recent back to back BJP victory has made people forget the earlier coalition Govt and what shangians Govt have done to keep their majority , including bribing and backmailing.

          “Better to live in a banana republic than in the Truman show of Indian democracy”

          As i have said before the reason India still has a democracy is because of its subaltern. Had elites got their way we would have been a Pakistan.

          On ADL, once u start off with having ADL in only on no-confidence motions, what to stop not having ADL even on no-confidence? Actually its perhaps the only good thing Rajiv Gandhi did. The BJP govt can just remove ADL because it doesnt affect them, next election an opposition alliance comes to power and then they make it fall ,and the cycle continues.

          Lets just assume ur perfect scenario, ADL only on no confidence motions. Whats stopping the BJP bribing some 30 odd legislators of different parties to support NRC and pass it. Then no party would ever need numbers really , and only thing which matters who forms the Central Govt. There are enough legislators in India who win on different parties ticket and party ideology or whatever doesnt matter for them. It will only increase corruption as each legislation in India will now have a price on its head, and with the right amount anything can be passed.

          1. “Whats stopping the BJP bribing some 30 odd legislators of different parties to support NRC and pass it.”

            If BJP really wanted to pass NRC, they still would. They just need the support of one or two party leaders. They recently made the amendment on 370.
            Convincing 30 odd legislators is tougher even with bribe. Not to mention the risk of leakage, sting operations etc.
            And you are assuming that all BJP MPs and its allies will necessarily vote along party lines. There still exist Varun Gandhis and JDUs of the world.

            “As i have said before the reason India still has a democracy is because of its subaltern.”

            Really don’t see how ADL actually empowers the subalterns at the cost of the elites. It’s the other way round mostly. The crucial leaders in BJP minus Modi are still Baniyas and Thakurs.

            “It will only increase corruption as each legislation in India will now have a price on its head, and with the right amount anything can be passed.”

            If your MP takes bribes to pass laws and you don’t remove him then you deserve him. The quality of your MP will start to reflect the quality of the electorate i.e. the subaltern masses. Right now the quality of the MP is immaterial to the election.

            In any case, you are ignoring the larger point of separating the legislature and executive.

            “Anyway on a serious note, right to recall is a stupid idea at onset and it will only create more de-stabilization where Govt are formed and fell by one vote.”

            I haven’t elaborated on right to recall in the article. Don’t assume it should be like in California or some place like that.

    1. She has conspicuously refrained from responding to many sane voices quote-tweeting her.

      quote-tweeting is generally asshole behavior, and hindu twitter is populated by loud assholes. it’s like say, “they weren’t responding when being fucked in the ass reasonably”

      also, sarah is personally hinduphilic.

  3. So I was going to listen to episode number 80 of the BP podcast only to realize that there is an episode 81 as well now. 2fast4updates

    1. probably won’t matter, but i wanted to use up the libsyn quota for feb. instead of allocating to march. i recorded that thursday evening.

  4. https://www.academia.edu/39820227/Arya_Ling_ICHR?auto=download
    “An Appraisal of the Linguistic Evidence in Relation to the AryanHomeland Issue
    (ICHR Conference, IGNCA Delhi, March 2019)”

    A good overview piece by Koenraad Elst that assumes little to no background in historical linguistics or the OIT/AIT debate on part of the reader.

    For the skeptic, the acceptance of the five vowel system as original as found in Greek and Latin and Indo-Iranian 3 vowel system as a later innovation

    “So, not PIE/Skt. dadarśa > Gr.dedorka , butPIE/Gr.dedorka
    > Skt.dadarśa”

    can be construed as just a linguistic sleight of hand that helped to perpetuate the imperial dominance of the Europeans. For those who accept historical linguistics as a truly scholarly enterprise

    “Let us also keep in mind that the linguistic evidence is fairly soft evidence. The more competent ones among the linguists are rather modest: ‘Our knowledge of these migrations [that broke PIE unity]
    is very limited. On a linguistic basis, little can be said about them.’ (Beekes 1990:70) Back in the 1980s my (Elst’s) own professor of Indo-European linguistics, Lambert Isebaert, said that the East-European Homeland was beyond linguistic proof, but that ‘the archaeologists have proven it’. “

  5. now iran is making noises on delhi riots, probably for 2 reasons:
    1. that sunni arab leadership is with the modi regime, iran sees a chance to take leadership of indian muslims.
    2. india is no linger buying much iranian oil.
    3. indian shias will feel abandoned, if iran starts supporting sunnis.

    1. and on 2, this is part of staking a claim to leadership of the Ummah, and Saudi siding with India gives Iran an opening

  6. Reading too much into it. Iran-India relationship is a bit like Indo-Soviet, both sides have to publicly posture to send signals to respective galleries (India to US, Iran to wider muslim world). But their bureaucracy will engage and do the bare minimum to sustain the relationship.

    Iran is more interested in Middle East than subcontinent, vice-versa for India. So neither interests or tensions overlap. India can live with some criticism from Iran, just like Iran understands India cutting oil imports under pressure from US. I mean India isn’t doing something which other countries havent done, while Iran too is not saying something which other Muslim countries haven’t already said.

    1. Which of the following better explains this:
      1) Indian diplomacy is clever and avoids condemnation business (other than for bashing Pakistan) because firstly foreign office understands that we don’t have the weight to persuade others (Iran/Saudi stuff in Yemen, crackdown in Iran and other such opportunities to trouble others) and secondly because we don’t want to escalate unnecessarily knowing that a few harsh words are not that important. On the other hand foreign (Muslim) countries are less institutionalized/professional/polished in diplomacy and their leaders blurt out whatever they feel like.
      2) Indian diplomacy is just not assertive enough or is perpetually afraid that we stand to loose more if it uses Twitter/Mass media to express displeasure.

  7. I am conflicted about the Uniform civil code. While in principle I agree that everybody should be governed by a common personal law based on modern jurisprudence, I do not think we should introduce UCC in the near future. Legislation as a means of social change is ineffective in the Indian context for 2 reasons 1) Enforcement of law in India is weak due to insufficient judicial capacity. 2) Legislation can have a signalling effect but the signalling value is weak(or none) if there is social resistance.
    The primary beneficiaries of a potential UCC would be muslim women. However, the signalling effect of law is even weaker in the muslim community which prizes Sharia/muslim personal law over modern jurisprudence. Enforcement will also be weak as most women will not approach courts. If a community want to remain mired in Sharia based laws, is it incumbent upon the state to rescue the community? BJP in particular has no credibility in this regard due to deep suspicions in the muslim community.
    Instead of UCC, the focus must be on increasing workforce participation of all women of all communities. Overall, we have poor workforce participation rates which are only a shade better than Pakistan and Middle east, but that is a pathetically low bar. A workforce participation campaign will have a higher signalling effect and help change some norms like the Beti padho campaign which has had some effect( though clearly inadequate). Of course the signalling effect will be higher for Hindu, Christian women. But so be it. It is up to each community to what extent they reform and it is to their credit if they do. I am confident that these communities have a great capacity to adapt to modern norms

    1. “If a community want to remain mired in Sharia based laws, is it incumbent upon the state to rescue the community? ”

      A good parallel is the US ban on polygamy – or rather the non-recognition of polygamy. So if you want to practice it inside your four walls, sure, consenting adults can do what they want.

      But the state will not extend recognition and bestow benefits in tax, retirement etc. Also if a woman (or man) wants to bring suit against their bigamist spouse they can.

    2. in my opinion, bjp et al were rooting for uniform civil code just to restrict the number of wives a muslim man takes. now that triple talaq act is in force, the attraction of uniform civil code has sort of receded.
      i am not sure if ucc activists have welfare of muslim women, their property rights etc in their minds.
      there is a feeling that an act to restrict the number of children in a marriage will now be demanded, although some educated hindus have started having 3 kids even in south india.

      1. I don’t know why BJP spent any of its political capital on triple talaq. Just to prove a point maybe that modern jurisprudence takes precedence over sharia. Not worth much, if the community thinks otherwise. Also, irrespective of how many wives a man has, a community’s overall fertility is determined by the number of children per women, assuming inter-marriage rates are low i.e. the community is not procuring wives from another group. Moreover, from what I know polygamy among Indian muslims is low at less than 2 percent.
        I don’t favor restrictive laws like 2 child policy, because it will lead to more sex-selective abortion. I favor having a policy like having more than 3 children will lead to cutting off of government benefits. This is reasonable because even the TFR of high fertility states has now come down to 3.5. Unlike leftists I do not favor a shift in the demographic balance in India in favor of minorities some of whom have integration problems.
        I’m not in favor of NRC because it could create problems for many even with average false positive rates for identifying non-citizens. Could anybody suggest alternatives on how to identify illegal immigrants? Or do we just give up on the existing set, absorb them and prevent future immigration through better border protection? I’m keen to hear solutions.

        1. There is no way to successfully identify illegal migrants already in India and make sure they leave the country.

          It will be notoriously difficult to repatriate them as no country will take them, keeping them in detention camp if any is bonkers too since it just leads to huge outcry and govt. resources being spent to feed people who could be productive.

          If BJP is done making whatever point it wanted to make, they can implement CAA and work on securing borders.

          More than that just concentrate on economy if for nothing else them self survival

          1. How about just giving illegal immigrants a work permit without voting rights? Because they typically vote for the likes of Mamta who encourages further immigration to grow her votebank. In Assam Badruddin Ajmal has emerged as a king maker because of such a vote bank. So long as they are voters, some politicians will be incentivised to pull in greater number of immigrants into the country.

          2. Doesn’t work unless there is bipartisan support. The implementation is bound to be undermined by both sides showing their own voter base liniency.
            Specially in Assam where the local populace is against all migrants hindu or Muslims.
            And how long can one give people work permit and take away their voting right?
            They will have to be given path to naturalization. What about their kids?

            It leads to more question than answers.

            The process of stopping vote bank migrants has to be done by better security at borders and if required better prosecution of people engaged in such activities in a transparent manner.

          3. Specially in Assam where the local populace is against all migrants hindu or Muslims.
            And how long can one give people work permit and take away their voting right?
            They will have to be given path to naturalization. What about their kids?

            Sri Lanka sent back 1960’s over half a million South Indian estate worker brought by the british. Many were 2nd and 3rd gen.

            At independence, the Brits did not resolve their statelessness.
            The brits did not give the South Indian workers Ceylon citizenship because that would have ended indentured status, and Brit estate owners loosing cheap labor.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirima%E2%80%93Shastri_Pact

  8. https://thediplomat.com/2020/03/sultans-on-wings-the-symbolism-of-weapon-names-in-india-and-pakistan/

    Sultans on Wings: The Symbolism of Weapon Names in India and Pakistan

    “The symbolism of these choices is rather clear: The Pakistan government refers to how the establishment of the country was linked to the historical growth of Islam in South Asia (a growth that partially happened in a violent way). Islamabad is also outspoken in showing that its missiles are primarily aimed at India, having been named after leaders who once invaded it.

    Compared to the above, Indian military names are not as aggressive ideologically. None that I am aware of carry the memory of a Hindu monarch that would be known for fighting Muslim rulers. The symbolism would be have been complementary had New Delhi named its missiles after those kings that fought the relevant Islamic conquerors (the ones whose names appear on Pakistani missiles). But that is not the case. India’s sole aircraft carrier, Vikramaditya, was christened after a king, but a one that lived long before Islam was even born.”

  9. Based on my understanding, our advanced weapon systems are also aimed at China. Naming it after the indigenous heros who fought the Turkic/other invaders would send a wrong signal that we are competing with Pakistan which is not really the main threat. I’m surprised that the author does not even mention China, and seems to characterize it exclusively as a South Asian arms race.
    The author’s conclusion on India is also wrong. How is it an identity struggle on the Indian side if weapons are named after elements i.e. Fire, Earth, Sky etc. Agni, akasha etc are words which are also a part of the Kannada vocabulary like many borrowed Sanskrit words. They are understood by most people in India so naturally it makes sense to name systems based on Sanskrit words rather than non-Sanskrit Hindi words

    1. I think the wider world does not see India as a competitor to China. So its understandable, that the author doesn’t too.I guess the point he is making is India’s weapon naming is arbitrary while Pakistan is more focused.

  10. Agreed that we are not seen as China’s competitor, but as an analyst he must understand India’s threat perception too.
    I also did not like his last sentence “Weapons are part of the struggle in South Asia, not only for their military intention but in their naming too — though much more noticeable on the Pakistani side”. Seems to imply that the difference is in degree and not in kind. Though his own article suggests otherwise.

    1. It is obvious to all but the feeble minded that India’s N-weapons are China directed. It would be stupid to develop them for defense from Pakistan.

      Whether or not the world sees India as competition to China is a bizarre reason for or against the above.

      The world doesnt see Pakistan as competition to anything but a lunatic asylum but its nuclear weapons are clearly India directed.

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