Open Thread – Brown Pundits

137 Comments

I did an episode on Big Brown Army a few days ago. The conversation revolved around being Christian (evangelical) and Indian, as well as what wokeness is doing to Christianity and Indians. The host of BBA, Decruz, is someone who I’ve known on and off for 15 years. We’ve both changed a lot, but stayed fundamentally similar.

Please remember to subscribe to ABCD Politics, the new podcast that I am doing with Surya Yalamanchilli.

I’m surprised how much you guys can be invested in Kashmir! That being said, the blow-up of the comments every week indicates perhaps Twitter is no longer so fun? I mean, 300+ comments on open threads are some serious discussion. Are blogs coming back?

What’s the best history of India you guys have read? I know some people will get mad, but Romilla Thapar’s stuff is some of the most accessible and well-written in English. Tell me what’s better.

1+

137 Replies to “Open Thread – Brown Pundits”

  1. Noticed a lot of people have either left Twitter entirely, become private accounts, or just post very rarely now (like me).

    Upinder Singh’s History of Ancient and Early Medieval India is a great book. It’s newer and more aware of anthropological studies of ancient sites. It’s academic but for some reason I found it easier to read than Thapar. Burjor Avari’s India: The Ancient Past is kind of like Singh’s book, but shorter and less academic.

  2. I find the writings of Upinder Singh the best among the lot. Not considering myself a Hindutvawadi I dont mind Romila Thapar as much – though i dont like some of the leaps of her faith she makes. On the Right wing i have been meaning to read RC Majumdar (who seems to be the most renowned Rightish scholar from India), Sitaram Goel and Aurobindo.

    1. Read Jadunath Sarkar as well. He is more Thucydides (facts on ground) than Herodotus ( narrative driven), but increasingly was seen Historian of the right

  3. Hi Razib: The link to the BBA is broken or not working. Is there a way to fix it? Thank you.

  4. “That being said, the blow-up of the comments every week indicates perhaps Twitter is no longer so fun?”

    I used to be quite active on Twitter till recently. De-activated my account earlier this year once Covid became apparent. Can only take so many hot takes.

    Still visit from time to time but feel this hiatus will last a while.

  5. 300+ comments on open threads are some serious discussion. Are blogs coming back?

    The blog-comments still have the same old problem, Comment-chain interaction.

    The only platforms which resolved this to a high degree were places like Slashdot, Digg, Reddit, HackerNews. Disqus’s comment system was also less bad than normal on this matter but only just.

    Even this blog’s comment section, there is no accessible formatting tools (I often make use of things like link insertions, bold-italics, quotes because I am familiar with them, most aren’t or also not too bothered to type so much to just format text). And child-comment-replies are hard to track as mentioned earlier.

    This is what will prevent blogs from blowing up again, it has a ceiling -range in that regard.

    the blow-up of the comments every week indicates perhaps Twitter is no longer so fun?

    Twitter should ideally be taken/used as a Content Distribution/Consumption platform like Feedly, Flipboard, etc. It is not really a Discussion platform and when used for that purpose one gets the obvious results, its garbage with the character limit acting as The primary driver of users being short-tempered, hostile and looking to counter with witty comebacks as the default position.

    There is Internet and social group theory behind all this. Jaron Lanier in his work has mentioned about the asymmetric propagation dynamic of Negative & emotional sentiments in online interactions.

    This Wharton study and podcast episode touches on another related aspect of online user behavior whereby the display/working size of the medium Input (like keyboard, screen-size) influences how mature/hostile, etc the written content is. As in the same person using a Phone to type something is more likely to write something more nasty and juvenile than if that same person was using a desktop in that same interaction. Medium becomes a factor therefore.

  6. Not read it but heard John Keay’s India: A History is good.

    Also yes, the comment section could be better as it is hard to track sub- discussions off the main thread. Marginal Revolution’s comments are much easier to scan through.

    A short time back had a conversation on Twitter with an Indian who was criticising Razib for being a water-carrier for Islam. Not a take I had seen before.

    1. “ Not a take I had seen before. “

      I follow a girl on Twitter who thinks RSS/bjp is secretly a Muslim Organization and the left in India is actually a hindu organization. So there is that.

  7. A short time back had a conversation on Twitter with an Indian who was criticising Razib for being a water-carrier for Islam. Not a take I had seen before.

    most indians on twitter are dumb as shit.

    i’ve read keay. it’s fine. but too light-weight

  8. Within the African-American community, is physical size correlated to success for men?

    Given that sports plays such a large role in gaining prestige, and especially sports such as American football and basketball where success is correlated with being larger, are smaller black men relatively invisible to the wider society?

    Many of them with some degree of fame in other professions also tend to be taller, for example Barack Obama is 6’1, Morgan Freeman is 6’2, Ta-Nehisi Coates is 6’4. If the average height of black American men is 5’10ish then there should be as many 5’5 men as there are 6’3 men, however, apart from a few well-known public figures such as Kevin Hart and Lil’ Wayne, the latter size appears more commonly on media than the former. Is this partly caused by so much attention being given to a few sports mentioned above in which black men dominate?

    Even in publicized cases of violent deaths and riots, the black men that make the news tend to be taller – Rodney King was 6’3, Michael Brown was 6’4 and George Floyd was 6’6. Are larger black men more susceptible to violence from the police?

    1. There’s a long sociological observation that taller men tend to do better (be promoted more often etc). Even in US presidential contests, the taller (man) usually wins. I don’t think it is tied to any race, seems to be a universal human sociological pattern for whatever reason.

    2. It here are a lot of short or avg height black musicians. Off the top of my head Kendrick Lamar, Ludakris, Kanye, lil wayne, and prince.

      There is a probably a correlation between how physically threatened a police officer feels and use of weapons.

      Part of this sense of being threatened is the demeanour of a suspect, cops own psychological issues, and part social stereotypes based on race / gender / age / neighborhood etc.

      I am sure physical size “can this person beat me up” plays a role in how threatened a cop feels.

    3. It is not only the height….For a better understanding of the whole event… The late Floyd served three times per 10 months for selling drugs and robbery, and once for 5 years for armed robbery, breaking into the house of a pregnant woman of the same race. A pistol was leaned against her forehead during the intrusion of five criminals who introduced themselves as plumbing workers and thus led her to open the door.

      1. Be as that may. If you saw the video, Floyd was completely subdued, and extra use use of force was completely uncalled for and basically murder in my eyes.

        It’s not the police’s job to be judge, jury and executioner.

    4. The average African American is 5 ft 9 on average not 5 ft 10, the average American is 5 ft 9. This is odd since the average Nigerian is 5 ft 4 for men. I believe there was a study that showed Jat Sikhs born and raised in Britain were taller and heavier than the Europeans and were 5 ft 11 on average but size doesn’t make for sports. Its muscle twitch fibers generally. East Asians are stereotypically small but have so many Olympic medals in weightlifting, diving, hurdling, wrestling, boxing, football. Ethiopians dominate distance running at the Olympics and west africans have sprinting. The Polynesians and Pacific Islanders make a big percentage of rugby players and some in American football too. Sometimes it has to do with poverty and lifestyle added in the equation. Ive seen a rise of Pakistani Mirpuri MMA fighters in many british divisions. The whole Solid Impact and Combat Challenge franchises in Britain are filled with Pakistani fighters.

  9. Razib, do you plan on inviting any anti-Hindutva folks for the BrownCast in the near future?

    Could be liberals (like Zeeshan) or subalterns (Sujatha Gidla) or radical progressives or perhaps Muslims?

    Recent Indian guests have been fairly right leaning. This has been great as it has highlighted the diverse strands on that side of the political spectrum.

    But it would be interesting to see a counter view that tackles nuances instead of the hysterics we see on social media.

    1. +1 Prats. @Razib There could be N number of very well articulate people who would be able to present the counter to what people like Kushal and Harsh have been saying.

    2. Zeeshan (the twitter person, i am guessing) has already been on the pod.

      Also i think that left-liberal folks already on a bunch of pod. God knows, in recent times, that;s the only place the’re found nowadays 😛

      Also even though guests were right leaning, i think there is some overlap b/w the hosts and guests on topics, which makes it at least comprehensible. Folks like Sujatha Gidla could be far too radical, and it could descend like a twitter fight. It would become like AOC on Alex Jones show.

      1. I know Zeeshan has been on the pod. So that’s why suggesting someone else like him.

        “Also i think that left-liberal folks already on a bunch of pod. ”

        I’d like to see what leftists have to speak about stuff like turning a blind eye to Muslim atrocities or Hindu atheism. Most of the leftist podcasts I’ve come across are just ‘fascism’ related breast beating and circle jerks.

        “Folks like Sujatha Gidla could be far too radical, and it could descend like a twitter fight.”

        May be not Sujatha Gidla then but I am sure there are folks with radical views who are well read enough to know where the right wing folks are coming from and can intelligently present why they disagree.

        Also, if they are truly woke they aren’t going to shout at Razib or Omar since that’d make them Islamophobic.

      2. I would like Sujatha Gidla on the pod. I think her book was discussed here about an year back and I was critical of her inauthenticity. Talking to her will expose even more.

        When you write a book, you can plan your line of attack in detail. While talking the evasions can be less and pointed out even more

        1. I mean leftists rarely leave their echo chambers for that reason. They don’t like in person debates because its much easier to find a tweet somebody made 5 years ago and attack that, than it is to attack arguments.

    3. Razib, do you plan on inviting any anti-Hindutva folks for the BrownCast in the near future?

      left ppl often ghost us or don’t want to come on. they’re open-minded like that.

      but yeah, a few have. make suggestions.

      1. “but yeah, a few have. make suggestions.”

        Shoaib Daniyal has been on the podcast before to discuss linguistics. He could be a good guest.

        1. I found Daniyal’s understanding of linguistics much to be desired last time he was on pod and pointed out the lacunae at that time.

  10. My first introduction to a non-textbook (school/uni) version of Indian history was AL Basham’s “The wonder that was India”. It was pretty good and invited the reader to indulge more.

    I do hope that there are more semi-fictional works about Indian history in the mould of Robert Harris’ Cicero series and Uhtred of Bebbanburg (Saxon tales) by Bernard Cornwell. I read Urnabhih by SV Ojha recently – a tale about Mauryan espionage – its a good start but rather thin on character development and a slow pace.

  11. Actually, old style google groups like soc.indian.culture were and are pretty good in having extended responses by many people Google gropups have been overshadowed by other opinion/and or discussion groups . The search facilities in G groups are also good as well as you can get responses in your Outlook or email app.

    One reason why I don’t like this kind of format is I can’t keep track of my own or other peoples responses to various topics. Google group referencing and retrieving is easy .

  12. Razib, not sure if you’ve read Sanjay Subrahmanyam. His work does a fair job of looking at indian history as part of broader eurasia, which is often lacking among a previous generation of scholars.

  13. Hi Razib
    If possible, please get Neil Howe for a podcast. Neil Howe is the author of ‘Fourth Turning’ written in 1990 about the US in a great crisis in 2020 and the following decade. He is not exactly South Asia expert , his expertise is in generational changes. He looks at society as 80 year generational cycles and at present in the 4th turning. Neil is a great catch
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Howe

    https://web.archive.org/web/20101008003306/http://csis.org/expert/neil-howe

    At the moment I am listening to a chat with him on an investment site Hedgeye

  14. “The conversation revolved around being Christian (evangelical) and Indian, as well as what wokeness is doing to Christianity and Indians.”

    Someone right said on twitter, Indians have a “woke” population of
    America with the GPD per capita of Nigeria

  15. Razib

    Really loved the episode on Big Brown Army. Actually was surprised how much i enjoyed. If i could suggest its better to get some different folks of similar background rather than break your head on leftist

    Mallu-muslim to discuss advent of Islam in Kerala
    North East Indian christian
    Pakistani christian
    Bangaldeshi Buddhist

    etc

  16. https://www.hindustantimes.com/columns/bjp-the-governance-politics-dichotomy/story-hXLCLx0tvr4l4nVHXIyfQJ.html

    “On Covid-19, many argue that it is the nature of the disease itself which has been crippling, the entire world is affected, and, but for the PM having announced the national lockdown, the situation would have been worse. On the economy, many similarly, blame the disease rather than the government. And on China, voters may well blame Beijing and consolidate more strongly behind the government.”

    “On the health, economic, or even national security challenge, it is not clear if voters believe that any of the Opposition parties would have necessarily done a better job — or minimised distress.

    Instead, some of the criticism may well be counterproductive. While regional parties are broadly unwilling to take on the Centre on China, the Congress has adopted an aggressive posture. It may be asking the right questions about the lack of disclosure on the transgression or holding the government to account on its current strategy. But its deeply personalised attack on the PM has ended up giving the BJP an opportunity to argue that the Congress is actually pleased to see India in a spot. This will hurt its prospects. “

  17. Romilla Thapar is a Marxist post modernist propogandist in my opinion.

    Sometimes it is useful to read Marxist histories too.

  18. Not on History of India, but on the economy of India (for folks who might be interested) and perhaps facets of it apply to whole of S-Asia, have a recommendation.

    Restart by Mihir Sharma. Perhaps the best and simplest book to have ever written in the last decade on the topic. Its saddening that the book could have been written at the start of every decade, since the problems and solutions almost remain the same

  19. Good recommendations here my reading list just keeps getting longer and longer lol…

    Been reading Johannes Bronkhorst’s works on India.

    Have been interested in why early Hinduism, seems so radically different from later Hinduism (pre-Islam). As well as the nature of interaction with Jainism, Buddhism etc.

    I had a sort of standard Hindu bias of thinking these traditions were reactions to some Hindu practices like caste, and that the vedas were composed long before these schools existed.

    But many random data points I knew about just didn’t fit my intuited model, the model he lays out makes a lot more sense.

  20. https://www.livemint.com/opinion/columns/india-s-search-for-a-role-model-after-america-s-decline-11593348353592.html

    India’s search for a role model after America’s decline

    “It may not be so apparent this month, but the fact is that in the past decade, the Indian middle classes had begun to adore a new aspirational model: China. India has had only three serious role models—Britain, the United States and China. And for the public and a section of politicians China was the most attractive.

    The new urban Indian middle classes had an overt and covert love for the fact that China did not ail from democracy. It didn’t attach any importance to freedom of speech and journalistic freedom.

    People who earn a living from freedom of speech have always made it appear that the freedoms they value the most are also valued by others. This was never true. Most people don’t care. In fact, people are more intolerant to freedom of speech than governments.”

    1. Sbrakkum

      What’s the current status of LTTE? Is there any chance of revival, or are they completely broken?

  21. can somebody analyse from china’s angle so to how they intend to achieve their objectives vis a vis india? what is victory for them?

  22. can somebody analyse from china’s angle so to how they intend to achieve their objectives vis a vis india? what is victory for them?

    1. https://warontherocks.com/2020/06/chinas-strategic-assessment-of-the-ladakh-clash/

      “Some argue it was strategically unwise for China to clash with India in Ladakh. Doing so will inevitably damage China’s reputation among the Indian military, diplomatic corps, and population at large. The move could also drive New Delhi into a closer partnership with Washington. But for Beijing, standing up for its interests and territorial claims is worth the cost. India is believed to be strategically unreliable to begin with and China has no interest in acquiescing to India’s attempt to advance its position on territorial disputes to trade for concessions. That is almost an established rule in China’s India playbook: Having dealt with India in the past, such acquiescence will not be seen as China’s good will, but a concession extracted due to India’s strength. This will only lead to even more aggressive Indian behavior down the road.

      If a strategic friendship with India is untenable, it frees up room for tactical gains. In the near term, China’s tactical objective seems clear —to advance its position roughly to the occupation line by the end of the 1962 war, according to pro-Beijing media outlets.”

      1. China seems to have badly miscalculated here.
        There are only 2 scenarios now, none of which are good for China.

        1) Both countries deescalate to a situation which existed in April 2020. China will lose face again after Doklam but it can probably get some small, ephemeral concessions from India. eg India might slow down infra work in some border areas only to take them up again later.

        2) Border skirmishes break out at multiple flashpoints along the LAC. This will probably again lead to a stalemate with India and China both grabbing some territory which the other side claims. A rush to occupy heights all along the Indo-Chinese border will occur following which the border line will settle into a situation similar to Indo-Pak LOC in Kashmir and Ladakh. Full blown anti-China sentiment in India will lead to massive tariffs on Chinese products and a slow but total shift in supply-chains away from China atleast for goods sold in India. India will find itself leading the way in a western military alliance against China.

        There is no third option. The nature of Indian democracy is such that China cannot gobble up some barren sq kms of Himalayan wasteland and India just sucks it up.

        India cannot be browbeaten like the other small countries China shares its borders with. India has a number of allies who are only too willing to join hands against China. Indian economy while dependent on China is robust enough to sustain an economic rupture with it. Already the Indian govt. has banned several Chinese apps which had significant presence in India. If China considers a couple of sq km of barren territory in Ladakh enough of a tactical gain to risk losing India as a market for its industrial and technology products, its a strange bargain.

        IMO China seems to have become an arrogant, myopic country heedlessly throwing its weight around and antagonizing several other countries. Similar to what USA did under Bush Junior when they invaded Iraq.

        1. I used to think the same way as u do, ie few strategic points in Ladakh which India can compensate by occupying other areas in other sector (which was what happened in 2013) , is hardly worth all this hassle. The second point on whether India will just suck it up , the question is still open if u ask me.

          But the article i have linked opened up my eyes. According to it, the Chinese has essentially “given up” on India. And they would rather take their tactical “wins” now rather than some imaginary “strategic” good which might come in future, from the relationship. It would make sense if you make two assumptions

          1) India will either ally US, or remain Non-aligned, but Indo-China relationship don’t have a future. India has enough communist/anti american intelligentsia to stall the first.

          2) India and China economic relationship is at a stage where India really cant pull back in a post COVID economy, and after some initial bruhaha, the relationship will not be great but won’t become worse either.

          This could be wrong assumptions (depends on India), but solid assumptions to lay your ground work on.

          1. Could you explain your points better Saurav?

            Anti-China sentiment in India is already at its highest peak since 1962. It will have and is already having repercussions for the Chinese. A lot of academicians (many of them anti-BJP and self confessed leftists) who study international-relations are calling for an Indo-American armed alliance and for militarizing the Quad (An alliance of India, Japan, Australia and USA). Ajai Shukla, a typical example of the “Lutyens” intellectual if ever there was one, has been trying to shame Modi into declaring war since months now.

            Take a look at the editorial pages of the Indian-Express, a paper filled to the brim with leftist intellectuals. None of the articles suggest backing off and “its all India’s fault somehow” like they do whenever India and Pakistan have a scrimmage.

            Already India has taken a massive step by banning 50 Chinese apps. I posit that this is a very significant escalation (Caesar crossing the Rubicon) and has been taken by the Indian govt. very deliberately without any histrionics. When it comes to China, it seems the immense threat concentrates the mind of the govt and it cuts out the drama which it is wont to indulge in with Pakistan. I foresee similar economic actions by the Indian govt. soon if China insists on salami-slicing territory along the LAC. It may take time but the domestic mood in India is not going to shift now.

            I agree that that economic boycott of China will hurt the Indian economy too, but only in the short to medium-term and less than one might think. India doesn’t really have much FDI from China, nor can China as yet deny India access to critical technologies. A lot of goods can get costlier in India for a short to medium term until replacements for them can be found and supply chains rebuilt to exclude China. A major win for India would be the removal of a grossly imbalanced trade-deficit.

            Also, India removed Article 370 against the wishes of these leftists intellectuals. There is nothing these leftists love better than appeasing Muslim fundamentalism, not even China. Their hold on Indian govt. policy is not there anymore. If the BJP govt. which still has 4 years left wants an alliance with the USA, it will get an alliance with the USA. The only factor in the decision would be the gain for India as the fickleness and fecklessness of a Trump led USA is well known.

          2. Also I think Saurav, you are treating that article as if its written by XI Jinping himself laying bare his inner thoughts. That article is just an outside analysis of the actions of an inscrutable govt.

            BTW here are the two alternative scenarios for China wrt to India as I see it

            1) A stable Indo-Chinese relationship neither very friendly but neither hostile; increasing trade which heavily favors China; India close to the USA but never militarily aligned with it; Lots of Chinese companies with high footprint in India; the borderlands remain undemarcated but it hardly matters because China controls what it really wants (Aksai Chin).

            2) China grabs 50-100 km sq of undemarcated territory along the LAC permanently and prevents Indian patrols from ever again coming to the area. Multiple skirmishes occur (Like the one in Galwan) and soldiers from both countries die as a result but in the end lets be generous and say China managed to hold on to ALL the undemarcated land and India doesn’t get anything.

            India being a democracy cannot hide casualties. And it cannot hide its defeats. Public pressure and anti-China sentiment will never let things go back to a normal relationship with China. If India is militarily held off, economic boycott of China will certainly be the policy even if it leads to Indian economic growth slowing down for some time. Also full scale military alliance with the West will be a certainty. Who would be China’s allies? A few rogue states like Pakistan and North Korea and a tottering, mostly irrelevant Russia.

            Somewhere high up in the Chinese govt is an arrogant fool who thought that in a world dealing with Covid-19, it would be a great idea to light up China’s border with multiple neighbors. A real strategy might have been to defeat Covid faster than anywhere else, concentrate on coming up with cures and vaccines, help the world in getting rid of it, build alliances with all and sundry and gain legitimacy and respect it takes to lead the world. China could have done what the USA did after World war 1 and 2. Rebuild the world around its economic and scientific might.

          3. Let me address the paragraphs

            Modi doesn’t do anything unless there is some political capital which he can attain from it. If u look at his Pak policy , he did the bare minimum, so that he doesn’t LOSE political capital. The same will go for China. No amount of opposition goading will spur him to attack, since he holds the narrative internally in India vis-v his opponents. BUT if he feels he lose electoral support, he will act. And since its China, which isn’t the emotional livewire of Pakistan, he has much more leeway.

            India domestic mood has shifted vis-v China, i agree, but can the momentum be sustained. Lets see. India has time and again gone back to the table with Pakistan which it had fought 4 wars and much less trade. So dont rule that out. Indo-China rivalry doesnt have the emotional edge (yet) and perhaps Indians will never trust the Chinese ( and vice-versa) but need not become a toxic relationship.

            On trade, FDI, Apps these are still early days. Lets see how much India is willing to walk the talk on the economic boycott badwagon. Its one thing to say we will suffer and buy costlier, and other to really do it. You can biycott all u want but if Chinese dont blink first, it would be counterproductive. Will they blink? Let see

            On ur last point , i agree US current is fickle, but u are overestimating India’s own desire to ally with US. There are far stronger and bigger groups opposed to US in India, then just leftist intellectuals. These are cold war era IAS folks to “atma-nirbhar” foreign policy expert jokers. Long story short , choosing a side means going the full hog, and not doing “chalta hai”, or leaving stuff mid way, our national pastime.

            Also the article does present persuasive alternative narrative. Do read.

          4. The banning of Chinese apps like Tiktok is a national security issue not an economic sanction.

            The amount of data these apps can collect and influence they can have on national mood via recommendation based algorithms is staggering.

            You can read some opinions from tech people, many of whom work on developing these apps here…

            https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23679286

            US apps are banned or stymied by China and Russia for the same reason.

            Elon Musk and other large tech companies disallow Zoom (which lied about end-to-end encrytption) for corporate espionage reasons as well.

  23. It looks like some Kashmiris in the valley are overjoyed at any news of India-China spat and can’t wait China captures Kashmir Valley
    This is what will happen then
    https://apnews.com/269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c
    China forces birth control on Uighurs to suppress population.
    This apart from considerable number in comradely ‘re-education centres’

  24. Great podcast Razib!

    Really enjoyed the discussion between you and DeCruz.

    I am a indian american (mallu) christian from Texas, but felt I didn’t have the same experience growing up as he (and probably you) did.

    Part of it might be the lower “brown” populations maybe in the northwest. Also for mallu christians at least, we had large population centers in Texas, though not a enclosed enclave (definitely not like cupertino),

    This podcast was quite informative, very interesting topics, including the discussion on Bobby Jindal (totally agree, something off about how he talks) and Nikki Haley.

    All your podcasts have been very interesting and look forward to more!

  25. @Saurav
    “Modi doesn’t do anything unless there is some political capital which he can attain from it.”

    Don’t think this is correct. I cannot see into Modi’s mind and he generally holds his cards close to his chest but I feel this is just a way liberals console themselves that nothing really has changed since Modi came to power and things will be back to normal under a cynical Congress govt. soon.

    I feel Modi is a “true believer” in the Hindutva idea of making India a strong country with Hindutva as the dominant social, political and cultural ideology inside. However much as he is ideogically driven, Modi is also practical and pragmatic. Let me illustrate why I think so:

    1) Modi along with the rest of BJP has long supported building the Ram Mandir in Ayodhya, removing Article 370 etc. But only Modi/Shah had the long-term discipline and work-ethic it takes to
    a) Gain power at the centre with full majority,
    b) Gain power in a number of states,
    c) Control the Rajya Sabha

    which led to
    => Making constitutional changes to remove Article 370.
    => Appointing judges and ensuring that the judiciary gives the Ayodhya verdict in Hindu’s favor.
    => Outlawing crap laws like Triple Talaq.

    Modi did not have to do any of these things in his second term to come to power. There are much easier ways to polarize the Indian public in order to win elections. Removal of Article 370 will NOT make the BJP win anymore elections than it already does. Ayodhya temple has a more emotional connect, however most Hindus were resigned to never seeing it being built in their lifetimes. Atmost they were hoping for a compromise with the temple and a mosque sharing the same site. Modi hit a home run where none was required because he believed in the cause for its own sake.

    Most Hindus do not care about triple talaq except as a handle to abuse Muslims with. The only reason Modi outlawed it is because separate Muslim civil law has been a long bugbear of the Sangh parivar and Modi wanted to strike a blow against it. No electoral benefit whatsoever unless you want to count a few token Muslim women who the Modi-friendly media paraded as thanking Modi for removing triple-talaq

    Modi has already hit Pakistan twice once with surgical strikes along the LOC and the second time by bombing Balakot. The Balakot air-strike was pretty ballsy since it was in Pakistan proper and not POK. He did let the counter-attack from Pakistan go without a reply which was uncharacteristic and a let down but I feel once Pakistan returned Abhinandan and having already bombed Balakot he may have felt that the point had been made and elongating the conflict was risky without any credible gains.

    Modi also got the Indian army to successfully block the Chinese when they tried to build a road in Doklam (in Bhutanese territory). This despite Modi’s fervent wish and consistent policy to court the Chinese, build better economic ties and get them to stop supporting Pakistan.

    Modi govt also has been building infra along the border with China at a much higher rate than the Congress govts the past. This is one big reason why India is in a position to contest the LAC with China at all. Otherwise China might have gobbled up whatever it felt like just like it did in Congress’s times.

    All these do not seem like the actions of a cynical politician only interested in staying in power and doing everything with both eyes firmly on electoral benefits. That description fits Donald Trump better but not Modi. Ofcourse, Modi plays up everything he feels would give him an edge electorally. Why shouldn’t he? In a democracy everything is political.

    1. All the things you listed Art 370, Ram temple will bring him political capital and he will not lose political capital. That’s a net gain. That;s what i was talking about. Perhaps not much political capital, and it will mostly consolidate the base, but if there is now downside to it , why not do it. That’s not to say he doesn’t believe in Hindutva or self discipline etc and all. Both these things are not contradictory. Also i don’t believe nothing has changed under Modi govt, and of course liberals dont too. The liberals whole contention is that TOO much has already changed, and we got to stop it.

      Let me give a concrete examples. What are times Modi has baulked? Land acquisition Bill, 3 elections loses in 2018, current NRC protests. Why? Because outcome of his moves would be net loss to his political capital. He will deploy his own political capital if he’s convinced there is more political capital at the end of it (Demonitization) Or else he will either step back (LAB, NRC) to stop the bleeding, or make populist moves (10 percent UC quota, Farmer subsidy) in wake 2018 election loses.

      So with China if he feels at the end of the war he will gain political capital ( doubtful) , he will do it , which he did with Pakistan. Short and enough to gain political capital (or not lose it on basis of nationalism) . But i think he is not convinced yet on China , so he is buying time essentially to resolve it diplomatically. But if he feels that he is losing political capital because he is being perceived as weak, he could go for the gamble.

    2. Triple talaq?
      I forgot this, thanks for reminding me… TTT&T = 4T = 40

      “Outlawing crap laws like Triple Talaq”…but, ‘77 virgins’ should remain, only they must not be underaged!

  26. @Saurav

    “There are far stronger and bigger groups opposed to US in India, then just leftist intellectuals. These are cold war era IAS folks to “atma-nirbhar” foreign policy expert jokers.”

    There is a lot of noise always in India. But everything changes when body bags start coming home. As it has already happened once in Galwan.

    Nehru could go around spouting non-aligned nonsense when nothing was on the line but once China attacked he stood in line with a shopping list of arms in front of Kennedy and aligned closely with the CIA to strengthen the Indian armed resistance to China.

    “Also the article does present persuasive alternative narrative. Do read.”
    I did. The article seems to be a convincing outline of Chinese thought behind starting this latest fracas. However, my point is that this very Chinese thinking is short-sighted and has led to a wrongly timed action. If the Chinese believe they can cow every neighbor into submission they are very much mistaken. It seems their lack of a free press and an open society has led them to believe that this medieval way of behaving will be accepted in the world of 2020.

    Especially with regards to India, what they stand to gain is so little and what they will lose is so big, that its really strange to see anyone make the choices they’ve been making until now. In 1962, they started a war, antagonized several generations of Indians but gained a big strategic chunk of territory, Aksai Chin. What do they stand to gain here? What is its worth?

    It seems likely that they want this region because they believe they captured it in 1962 but later went back towards more consolidated positions. Having built a world class infrastructure in their territory they cannot see India doing the same and think the best time to grab these little slivers of territory is now, before India completely catches up. This much is clear enough.

    What is not clear is why their estimate of the value of these little pieces of territory is so high that they risk starting another war with India. India was quite happy to let these buffer zones be patrolled by both sides. Its needless belligerence to unilaterally junk a system which has been working well for decades.

  27. Some questions regarding population genetics:
    Are Mongols and Japanese people mixed with West Eurasians? Some Japanese ppl look quite Caucasian.

    Do most White North Americans have non-white(Native American/Black) ancestry?Justin Trudeau has a few Austronesian ancestry but still looks fully European

    If yes, what are the ancestry percentages?


    1. Are Mongols and Japanese people mixed with West Eurasians? Some Japanese ppl look quite Caucasian.

      mongols 10%. japanese 0%.

      Do most White North Americans have non-white(Native American/Black) ancestry?Justin Trudeau has a few Austronesian ancestry but still looks fully European

      no

  28. Serbia has good political and economic relationships with China. Recently, for e.g. they provided first installations of Chinese technology (e.g. telecommunications) while it was still immature and of poor quality and this were used as (Euro) references for later tenders and installations in Western Europe. They also build bridges, railways as a part of new Silk Rd and bought the largest cooper mining. I hope that Serbia will use this relationship that China influence Pakistan to keep in check the thousands of their jihadi terrorists recently sent to Bosnia although, there are also US with their ISIL terrorists.

    However, it is less known that Chinese and Serbs for thousands of ancient years had a mixed bag of relationships in SA and EA. I wrote a bit about this before. They often had mutual wars, but they often were allies against Mongols. Very often, Serbs, known as good warriors, fought Mongols and protected Chinese territories and Chinese paid for this protection. In Xinjiang, for example, Serbs lived for almost 2500 years before Chinese appeared there and 2750 years before Uyghurs came in 842 AC. R1A Tarim mummies (from 1800BC), including a blonde woman, were Serbs (is there some question or protest from the audience? Nop? Txs.). Chinese do not have their OIC camp and openly write PhD theses about, how they say, Northern People, who came from somewhere and brought many things, including new technologies. As in the Greeks’ case, Serbs also gave the today’s name to Chinese.

    Over time, Chinese outnumbered Serbs (similar to the situation in Serendib when Indian migration flooded local Aryans), some of them had to escape to Siberia which got the Serbian name. Siberians are tall and strong (e.g. Maria Sharapova) and, when they came, their contribution in a Stalingrad’s battle against Germans was decisive. Some Serbs started their voyage to the west via Iran and Anadolia and few of them, after several hundreds of years, reached their ancestors’ homeland in Balkan. They brought some ritual songs from the Chinese frontier and old homeland what is known to at least one OIT BPundit. Some Serbs remained and got assimilated amongst Chinese. There are many Youtube clips presenting blonde and blue-eyed Chinese and Mongols whose ancestors were those ancient Serbs.

  29. @Janamejaya.
    “Also, India removed Article 370 against the wishes of these leftists intellectuals. There is nothing these leftists love better than appeasing Muslim fundamentalism, not even China. Their hold on Indian govt. policy is not there anymore.”
    It is not just left intellectuals who oppose removing Art 370. A considerable section of decent Indians were against its removal. Nor did its retention have anything to do with appeasing Muslim fundamentalism. Modi’s unconstitutional coup is a direct result of the Hindutva/Hindu Mahasabha chauvinism that led to the partition of India in the first place.

    1. My own view on its removal is that it hardly does much on the ground, given the dynamics of Kashmir. So i have no strong views on its continuation or removal.

      But would be interested to know a “decent Indian” arguments against the removal?

      1. Modern Hindus are a fatalist people and in most cases even the extreme right-wing ones do not have an appetite for any sort of extended conflict.

        Our friend “nothing is going to change” Saurav channels that same can’t-do spirit here.

        “Modi doesn’t do anything unless there is some political capital which he can attain from it.”

        This feels like a post facto rationalization more than a theory with any predictive power. You can fit any past data to this.

        I can cite demonetization and very well say that Modi builds political capital only to take extremely risky decisions.

        “But would be interested to know a “decent Indian” arguments against the removal?”

        Slapstik had written a good article on it if I recall correctly. In any case, anyone concerned with due process or federalism should have at least mixed feelings about the way it was brought about. These are not exclusive leftist concerns unless your definition of the term is tautological.

        1. “Modern Hindus are a fatalist people”

          Yeah perhaps, or perhaps having seen the India of the 90s, a cynicism develops, to not throw away whatever India has achieved in the last 2 decades on fruitless conflicts which ultimately doesn’t matter. I would be very interested to see what India, and the world , this current “can do” generation builds.

          1. “Yeah perhaps, or perhaps having seen the India of the 90s, a cynicism develops”

            To be honest, the fatalism is not restricted to the right. I have met so many people on the left who are convinced that India is a fascist country and their heads are going to be hunted soon. So they need to flee the country. Not sure if fatalism or delusion. Probably both.

            “this current “can do” generation builds.”

            Haha. First time someone is calling millennials ‘can do’.

      2. Indian govt is entitled do pass any administrative changes within it’s borders and that is what it did.
        More than that, I like the constitutional changes as it broke the Policy Paralysis of the past 30 years. Modi govt has shown an initiative and let the proverbial cat among the pigeons.

        You have to take bold initiatives to break the logjam and prepare for the consequences . This is one such.

        BTW, people are saying Article 370 was annulled. On the contrary. The Article is still in place. Clause 3 says Clauses 1 and 2 can be expired at government’s discretion. So, GoI has used the Article to bring the changes. Clever

    2. “It is not just left intellectuals who oppose removing Art 370. A considerable section of decent Indians were against its removal.”

      This is one of those high-to-low entropy political situations where many people opposed removing 370, but if in power few mainstream parties would actively try to bring the article back. The best-case scenario is if J&K becomes a state again in a few years once things settle down. The J&K administration is very corrupt as it is, taking up 10% of the central funding for 1% of the national population and not much development to show for it.

      If a different ruling coalition comes to power in 2024 then they wouldn’t get anywhere near as much support to bring that law back. Many of the non-Hindutva parties like AAP and BSP supported it because they had a pulse on their own voters’ interests. Ergo, they believed that there would never be enough numbers in the centre to vote on 370’s removal but once it became a reality they all chimed in.

  30. What are the arguments of decent Indians think about removing J&K’s autonomy?
    One, they think it was unconstitutional. Two, they think it was indecent. Three, it was a violation of the most solemn assurances and promises of the Govt. of India. Four, it was an act of rank communalism. Five, it was discriminatory. Six, it was callous. Seven, it was a betrayal of all those elements in Kashmir who stood by India and believed in its secular democratic credentials. Eight, it showed that perhaps the separatists were right all along. It abandoned all pretence that the people of Jammu and Kashmir were seen through the same ethical prism that governed the rest of India. Finally, it exposed the communal bent of Indians claiming to be secular as far as J&K is concerned.
    @Vijayvan.

    “Indian govt is entitled do pass any administrative changes within it’s borders and that is what it did.
    More than that, I like the constitutional changes as it broke the Policy Paralysis of the past 30 years. Modi govt has shown an initiative and let the proverbial cat among the pigeons.”

    No, Indian Govt is not entitled to do any administrative changes within its borders. It is only allowed to do what the constitution allows it. It is a misnomer to call it the Indian Government anyway. It is the Government of the Union of India, or the Union Govt. for short. Govt. of India is a hangover from British rule and the Govt. of India Act 1935 which is no longer operative. I am not quibbling here. India is a Union of States.
    No policy paralysis existed before 5/8/19. However, Modi is stuck now. He does not know what to do and is exhibiting policy paralysis over J&K. He is up the creek, without a paddle.

    “You have to take bold initiatives to break the logjam and prepare for the consequences . This is one such.”

    Bold in this case equals stupid, bordering on criminal stupidity – not surprising in this ruling gang. What logjam has Modi broken? He has got more problems now in Kashmir. This decision was worse than the ‘bold’ demonetization.

    “BTW, people are saying Article 370 was annulled. On the contrary. The Article is still in place. Clause 3 says Clauses 1 and 2 can be expired at government’s discretion. So, GoI has used the Article to bring the changes. Clever”

    It is in place as a hollow shell, because of the use of Presidential Orders to eviscerate it. The process was unconstitutional. Clever? As clever as a crook can be. There is no clause that gives government discretion to change Art. 370’s essential purpose, the autonomy of J&K guaranteed by Art. 370. No wonder the Supreme Court keeps postponing hearings on petty grounds, it cannot let Modi’s cleverness stand under the law. If the SC lets this one through we can goodbye to our constitutional rights.

    1. If only Indian liberals had the courage of their convictions and were not “liberals” in name only, Hindutva today would not have been a force that it is.

      Anything like Article 370 has no place in a self-avowed secular, democratic India. If a Kashmiri can buy land in Delhi, any other Indian should be able to settle in Kashmir freely. Thats the principle. How these cowardly hypocrites who call themselves liberals in India try to weasel out of applying this principle is a sight to behold. Indian National Congress should never have agreed to something like Art. 370 in the first place (as Ambedkar pointed out). Even if they did perhaps because of certain externalities, they should have removed it as soon as they had the chance.

      Having something like Article 370 was the biggest blot on Indian secularism and nationhood. Thank God the BJP had the conviction to finally remove it.

    2. “I am not quibbling here. India is a Union of States.”

      Correct statement but the thrust of your argument is categorically wrong. In Ambedkar’s own words:

      * Indian federation is not the result of an agreement by the units.
      * Component units have no freedom to secede from it.

      India has a much stronger Central govt. as enshrined in the Constitution than say the USA does. The Central govt. was fully within its rights to remove Article 370 as they saw fit. No court in the country can do anything about it.

      1. @ Vijayvan,

        Not baseless accusations. Absolutely accurate accusations. I don’t have the time to write 8 chapters justifying each of the accusations.

        @Janamajeya. You seem the moral equivalent of Kabir and equally impervious to facts.
        Secession was not an issue here.
        No, the Union Government does not have the right to do want it wants with the constitution, such as removing Art. 370. This is the voice of a right-wing Hindutva fascist.

        Ambedkar is correct about the States that were formerly Provinces of British India. He is not speaking about the Princely States which joined India by acceding to it.

        “If only Indian liberals had the courage of their convictions and were not “liberals” in name only, Hindutva today would not have been a force that it is.”

        You seem to be confusing liberalism with Congress party. The Congress was always softly Hindu, until, for a brief episode, the socialists gained ascendancy; it then reverted to type. It was an inclusive party but never once gave thought to genuine concerns of minorities. That is why it cultivated the Deobandis.

        “Anything like Article 370 has no place in a self-avowed secular, democratic India.”

        How do secularism and democracy enter into a discussion on Art 370. It is one of those factoids that Sanghis unwittingly spout. Article 370 enumerates the powers of the State of J&K in comparison to those of the Union Government.

        “If a Kashmiri can buy land in Delhi, any other Indian should be able to settle in Kashmir freely. Thats the principle. How these cowardly hypocrites who call themselves liberals in India try to weasel out of applying this principle is a sight to behold.”

        That is indeed the principle. But the cowardly hypocrisy is all on the Sangh’s side, and it is a sight to behold. Why does not the BJP remove the same restriction on buying land by outsiders in Himachal Pradesh, which it has ruled for some time now? Or in Nagaland, or indeed other places in India where similar restrictions apply. Is it because it wanted non-Muslims to settle in Kashmir?

        For your information, Article 370 had nothing to do with the right to purchase property in J&K. That was covered under the Permanent Residents Act, which was protected by Art 35, not by Art 370.

        “ Indian National Congress should never have agreed to something like Art. 370 in the first place (as Ambedkar pointed out). Even if they did perhaps because of certain externalities, they should have removed it as soon as they had the chance.
        Having something like Article 370 was the biggest blot on Indian secularism and nationhood. Thank God the BJP had the conviction to finally remove it.”

        Let us remember that the Constitution was framed by the Constituent Assembly, not Congress. Ambedkar was not a Congressman, and he was wrong on Art.370. Ambedkar was not perfect; he could be wrong. If you have read your history, you will know that the Constituent Assembly, Congress, and Patel/Nehru had no alternative to accepting Art. 370. There was no choice and no possibility of doing anything but incorporating it. If you have not read up the history of the time don’t make such sweeping statements about the issue.

        1. LOL. You logic is completely warped.

          First of all I (and others) were using Art. 370 as a proxy for both Art 370 and 35A. After all the Indian govt. has removed both. I was supporting their decision. Please do not come up trivialities like this to divert attention from the main points.

          In some hill states there is a restriction on buying agricultural land but not on buying residential property. Any Indian can buy cottages or apartments in Shimla, Chail whenever he wishes to. You are building a strawman here when you compare Kashmir with Himachal.

          Moreover I for one totally support no restrictions on buying any kind of land for any Indian anywhere in India. The BJP too doesn’t have any philosophical reasons to keep these restrictions in place. These restrictions in Himachal came up during Congress rule in 1972. You display some chutzpah blaming the BJP for this.

          Also you do not have a raging Jihadist insurgency in Himachal where non-Himachalis are being hounded out. Kashmiri society is totally fucked up. There was no way a sane civilized discussion could have occurred with stakeholders in the valley for removing Art. 370. If you remember this move has come decades after the Central govt (both BJP and Congress) has tried to bring all stakeholders on board for a peaceful political resolution. If these sef-appointed leaders of the Kashmiri “resistance” had made a compromise with the Indian govt anytime from 1990-2018, there would not have been any reason to take such unilateral action.

          Finally if Nehru’s Congress is too Hindu for you I suggest you please exile yourself from earth and start a perfectly secular society on the Moon or Mars. India under Nehruvian Congress was probably the least majoritarian country anywhere on the Earth in all history. Even now under the BJP Hinduism in India does not have the primacy or the socio-political heft which for instance Christianity has in USA.

          India is a Dharmic land. While people belonging to any religion should live here in harmony I for one do not think we have to deny ourselves our own culture in order to accommodate them. Hinduism should have primacy in India as Hindutva espouses. Hindus too have a right to proudly practice and freely profess their religion as well as make political choices which ensure the continued survival and flourishing of their culture as they see fit.

          Going by the standard of logic your arguments show, if you think I am the moral equivalent of Kabir, I would say you are the “analytical” equivalent of Kabir.

          1. “First of all I (and others) were using Art. 370 as a proxy for both Art 370 and 35A. After all the Indian govt. has removed both. I was supporting their decision.”

            When you begin to read accurately you will begin to think accurately. The two are not the same and did not imply the same thing nor flow from one another.

            “In some hill states there is a restriction on buying agricultural land but not on buying residential property.”

            You cannot buy even residential land in Himachal without government permoission which is hardly ever given unless you happen to be Atal Behari Vajpayee or Priyanka Vadra. Why is there a ban on buying agricultural land in Himachal when the constitution allows the practice of one’s profession anywhere in India.

            “Yes as we all know in India what secularism really means is that Islamic fundamentalism is absolutely ok and any resistance to it is fascism. Muslims should be able to drive out minorities from their states but Hindu majority states should always accept Rohingya refugees from Myanmar and never care about demography because that is fascism. Kashmiri Muslims should also be able to settle anywhere else in India but no talk should be entertained about other Indians being able to buy residential property in Kashmir”

            That is standard illogical Sanghispeak and is riddled with Sanghi hysteria. Rohingya are foreigners and have no connection with the issue of J&K.

            “As we all know minorities are special and they reserve the first right to all natural resources.”

            Sanghi hysteria agaain.

            “More seriously, this fetishization and taking a good idea to its illogical extreme is a rare sight in the world. Only in India is it found. Mostly amongst a section of society trained in humanities under Professors who have for decades brainwashed them.”

            All the major Hindutva types have been humanities types nurturing their neuroses, like Hitler did, out of myth and supposition. They have been joined by engineers and doctors who were so busy memorizing formulae that they forgot how to think for themselves.

        2. “Secession was not an issue here.”
          Yup in Kashmir the insurgency in Kashmir is not about secession at all. Nor was Art 370 and 35A feeding into a feeling of otherness for decades and allowing Kashmir to wallow in misery and discontent.

          The insurgency is infact about upholding “Kashmiriyat” which as we all know is a traditional, cosmopolitan way of life created by elves of Kashmir and which is under threat from the democratic hegemony of the giant Indian state full of orcs led by the Dark Lord Modi.

          “How do secularism and democracy enter into a discussion on Art 370”
          Yes as we all know in India what secularism really means is that Islamic fundamentalism is absolutely ok and any resistance to it is fascism. Muslims should be able to drive out minorities from their states but Hindu majority states should always accept Rohingya refugees from Myanmar and never care about demography because that is fascism. Kashmiri Muslims should also be able to settle anywhere else in India but no talk should be entertained about other Indians being able to buy residential property in Kashmir.

          As we all know minorities are special and they reserve the first right to all natural resources.

          More seriously, this fetishization and taking a good idea to its illogical extreme is a rare sight in the world. Only in India is it found. Mostly amongst a section of society trained in humanities under Professors who have for decades brainwashed them.

        3. “The Congress was always softly Hindu, until, for a brief episode, the socialists gained ascendancy; it then reverted to type.”

          This doesn’t seem a fair characterization. I agree that Congress is not really liberal. But it’s not softly Hindu either.

          One could say that Congress is a party that claims to uphold individual liberties but consistently makes laws that appease the most vocal communities. These communities can be of any kind.

          You can look at how Hindu code bills were passed but nothing equivalent happened to Islam. Or the Shah Bano case. Or RTE.

          1. “Congress is a party that claims to uphold individual liberties but consistently makes laws that appease the most vocal communities. These communities can be of any kind.”

            Not only did the Congress create an environment where it was more profitable to be a minority than a Hindu, in order to benefit politically they even facilitated Hindu groups trying to get minority benefits by getting themselves declared non-Hindu through lawyerly arguments. eg the Anand Margis, ISKCON and most recently Veerashaivas-Lingayats in Karnataka.

          2. It was in the 20s and 30s when the Hindu Mahasabhaites in Congress resisted small concession to Muslim sentiment and prevented Gandhi from arriving at an understanding with Muslims led by Agha Khan. Earlier Motilal Nehru in his keenness to keep on the right side of Madanmohan Malviya who controlled Congress in UP ensured that Jinnah’s reasonable pleadings (at that time) on behalf of Muslims got nowhere.
            Nehru himself was so full of himself and Congress pretensions that he refused Jinnah accommodation after the 1937 election though the League had fought it in understanding with the Congress. That wasn’t being softly Hindu of course, merely arrogant and insensitive. Under Rahul Gandhi we see Congress trying to be softly Hindu again.

  31. https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/map-row-what-changed-in-india-nepal-ties-6470080/

    Explained: What changed in India-Nepal ties? A view from Nepal

    “India was for long a factor — and to a large extent the sole external actor — in Nepal’s internal politics. But when India openly took the lead role in transforming Nepal into a secular republic from a Hindu kingdom, it set off events leading to India losing its clout and allies in Nepal.

    India’s old allies are regretting having aligned with the Maoists.

    “Nothing could have been a more erroneous judgment of India in 2006 than that Maoists were the emerging forces of the people and bringing them to the centrestage of Nepali politics and power would consolidate democracy,”

    In a country when your own communists support China in 62 war, the wisdom of supporting commies of another country.

  32. https://time.com/5861100/china-uighurs-birth-control/

    “Chinese government is taking draconian measures to slash birth rates among Uighurs and other minorities as part of a sweeping campaign to curb its Muslim population, even as it encourages some of the country’s Han majority to have more children.

    The state regularly subjects minority women to pregnancy checks, and forces intrauterine devices, sterilization and even abortion on hundreds of thousands, the interviews and data show. Even while the use of IUDs and sterilization has fallen nationwide, it is rising sharply in Xinjiang.”

  33. ‘Pakistan International Airlines will not be allowed to fly to the EU for six months after several of its pilots’ licenses were found to be invalid, EASA said. Islamabad said it would try to reform the troubled airline.’

    https://www.dw.com/en/pakistans-carrier-pia-barred-from-flying-to-europe-for-six-months/a-54006087

    Not that it matters during the pandemic but no EU overflights means no Pakistan to London/New-York.

    If any Pakistani is listening sell PIA right now, give it away for free or even scrap its planes for aluminium. These opportunities are rare the unions will not have public support, cash it or else PIA and it’s employees will continue to suck your blood.

    Not quite as bad as PIA but given it’s much larger size Air India is a much larger leech. No one is going to buy it, please someone close it down already.

    1. “Bids for state-owned Air India were meant to close today, but the government has extended the deadline for a further two months.”

      https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/yet-again-new-delhi-extends-air-india-sale-deadline/139053.article

      If someone buys this piece of shit then they don’t deserve to remain rich. Really worried about TATAs acting out of national pride. No Indian company should buy it and no Indian bank should finance a deal. This beemaru organisation deserves to die as quickly as possible.

    2. Two Asian aviation powerhouses, Malaysia and UAE, get serious about Pakistan’s fake licenses. Pakistani aviation minister should be praised for his integrity and placing public safety above national pride, unlike that worm Sheikh Rasheed, minister of railways.

      “Malaysia’s aviation regulator has temporarily suspended pilots employed by domestic airlines who hold Pakistani licenses, after the government of the South Asian nation revealed that many pilots had dubious qualifications.”

      https://gandhara.rferl.org/a/malaysia-suspends-pakistan-pilots-after-licence-fraud-revelation/30703897.html

      “In a letter to Pakistani aviation authorities, the Director General of the UAE’s General Civil Aviation Authority Saif Mohammed Al Suwaidi requested verification of the credentials of Pakistani pilots, aircraft maintenance engineers, and flight operations officers working in the Middle Eastern country.”

      https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pakistan-airlines-pilots/uae-seeks-to-verify-credentials-of-pakistani-pilots-in-its-airlines-idUSKBN242572

  34. “Your security forces have just murdered a grandfather in front of his 3 year old grandson.”
    Atleast get your facts right. This person was caught in the crossfire between terrorists and CRPF. There are no eyewitnesses who can verify that it was the CRPF bullets which killed him.
    Also Kabir, 2 Indians can discuss their differences and hold opposite views because we live in a free, democratic country. You are not allowed to insert yourself in between because first you are a category 5 moron and you live in a tinpot army dictatorship which will soon be a colony of China. Know your place, you weasel.

    1. I am an ethnically Kashmiri Muslim. These are my people you are talking about.

      The little boy was posed on his grandfather’s corpse and posed for photographs. If you had an ounce of shame you wouldn’t be talking about Kashmir today.

      You Hindutvadis are truely the scum of the earth. There’s a special place in hell for all of you.

      1. From what i read he was killed in the shootout b/w militants and local police, and not Indian army. Even allowing for the part that perhaps he was killed by police, Kashmir police (at least from the pics of the kid in the lap of police officer) is recruited from the valley.

        1. Being recruited from the Valley doesn’t change anything. Every Occupation has its collaborator class. For Kashmiri Muslims to be employed by the Indian State to torture their own is completely unacceptable.

  35. List of Major Indian States & Pakistani Provinces HDI (2018):

    *Major means a population of 10 million or more and that it cannot be a city-state/territory
    *Also included are the overall country HDIs for major (10m+) countries of South Asia

    [Sri Lanka – 0.780]

    1. Kerala – 0.779
    2. Punjab, India – 0.723
    3. Haryana – 0.708
    4. Tamil Nadu – 0.708
    5. Maharashtra – 0.696
    6. Indian Kashmir – 0.688
    7. Uttarakhand – 0.684
    8. Karnataka – 0.682
    9. Gujarat – 0.672
    10. Telangana – 0.669
    11. Andhra Pradesh – 0.650

    [India – 0.647]

    12. West Bengal – 0.641
    13. Rajasthan – 0.629
    14. Assam – 0.614

    [Bangladesh – 0.613]

    15. Chhattisgarh – 0.613
    16. Madhya Pradesh – 0.606
    17. Odisha – 0.606
    18. Jharkhand – 0.599
    19. Uttar Pradesh – 0.596

    [Nepal – 0.579]

    20. Bihar – 0.576
    21. Punjab, Pakistan – 0.567

    [Pakistan – 0.560]

    22. Sindh – 0.533
    23. Khyber Pakhtunkhwa – 0.529

    [Afghanistan – 0.496]

    24. Balochistan – 0.477

    1. And I thought that we UP-Biharis are the bottom tier trash of India (all of India) seems like sunburnt-Jats/Arains of central-asian/turk/arabic/iranian ancestry have beaten us decisively.

      btw my Telugu flat-mate and I had once decided that UP and Bihar should be given to Nepal in order to ensure rest of India can prosper. I suppose same logic was applied to (Western) Punjab, Sindh, NWFP and Balochistan in 1947.

      1. “btw my Telugu flat-mate and I had once decided that UP and Bihar should be given to Nepal in order to ensure rest of India can prosper.”

        Lol. That would improve the average HDI of both countries. Win-win.

        1. “Lol. That would improve the average HDI of both countries. Win-win.”
          Wicked! I never thought about that. Plus no more communists, Adityanath/
          Akhilesh/ Nitish/ Mayawati will be the PM. Capital would be Lucknow. Complete win win for everyone.

          I think (ignoring commies and the consequences of their madness) Nepalis are the only ones who genuinely accept Indians with love, and by and large they are loved back. But they are so nice, calm, use no abusive language, always address others as bhaiya, didi etc that they are almost not (north) Indian.

      2. Well UP-Bihar is essentially India, so perhaps Nepal becomes India then. The rest becomes not-India i guess.

        BTW Prithvi Shah, the 1st Nepali King, used to call Nepal as “asal Hindustan” anyways. So there is that.

        1. Marathis, Bengalis, Punjabis and to a lesser extent Gujjus, Rajasthanis and Tamils will actually find word ‘India’ more useful after UP-Bihar are thrown out of the Union.
          a) They will become much more important.
          b) Their sidekicks, borderlands and holiday destinations (i.e. states like Orissa, Himanchal, Kerala etc) might go away without India.

          1. Lets go one by one, shall we.

            Its laughable that Bengalis/Punjabis have any claim on India, considering their majority live in a different country . Marathis and Gujjus need to first sort out their own issues before throwing out anyone. Especially UP-Bihar, who collectively form the biggest ethnic bloc in “India” . The sidekicks u mentioned dont deserve much discussion.

            We (UP-Biharis) gave this country its religion, its culture, its languages and of course its name(Bharat) as well. So yeah, we sort of own this place. 😛

          2. I don’t like Punjabis/Haryanvis/Delhi/Jats in general (they do too much denigrating name calling Bhaiya/Madrasi/Chinki/Shab-ji, are the rudest, genuinely most unhelpful people around) who make disproportionately (w.r.t. to their population) loud noise on national issues and Bengalis (familiarity breeds contempt, and it’s impossible to like bhadraloks, especially the tote slinging stick-figure, sutta smoking, smelly ‘commie intellectuals’ and noisy stupid students from Presidency, Jadavpur etc.) either. So I won’t be defending them but are you sure that we gave India it’s language, religion and culture? And whats the story with name Bharat coming from UP?

            “We (UP-Biharis) gave this country its religion, its culture, its languages and of course its name(Bharat) as well. So yeah, we sort of own this place.”

          3. On who “owns” India

            https://www.hindustantimes.com/lucknow/how-uttar-pradesh-got-its-name/story-53gjNNUbmJ0b17HcKOcovL.html

            How Uttar Pradesh got its name

            In a two-hour long debate, an overwhelming majority of 106 members supported the motion in favour of Aryavarta. On November 17, 1949, Pant retracted publicly from the debate. He informed the Assembly that the Aryavrata proposal was being given up as “this was not found acceptable to other parts of the country.”

            Earlier during the debate, RK Sidhwa, a member from CP-Berar, had insinuated that the “United Provinces was anxious to monopolise the name of India.”

            Further, he expressed the fear that though the name Aryavarata may have been given, the United Province government might still forward the name Hindustan instead.

            Names of this kind, Sidhwa charged “signified not merely United Province but the whole of India.” He was concerned that United Province looked upon itself as the “super-most province of India.”

          4. “We (UP-Biharis) gave this country its religion, its culture, its languages and of course its name(Bharat) as well. So yeah, we sort of own this place. ”

            When you don’t have any real achievements to your name, this is the type of crap you fall back on.

            It’s similar to how dumb nationalists will claim we own science and math because we invented zero or the idea of flying machines and shit like that.

            Uttar Pradesh is an arena for national parties to showcase their political wits but apart from that it is playing a more and more marginal role in national affairs. It’s just a nuisance to be honest.

            No one really cares about Bihar at all. North Bihar suffers horrific floods year after year and no one bothers.
            But one flood in Kerala or Kashmir or Mumbai or Gujarat and you have people all tee-ing up to help.

            Biharis would do well to realise this and develop some self-respect and sub-nationalism.

          5. Well when you know that you the progenitor of all thing cultural, religious and language of a land, and don’t want to piss off other ethnicities giving them a stake to claim those stuff as their own as well, then those other ethnicities start becoming uppity from time to time, and have to be reminded who the real boss is.

            To compensate for their lack of role in the founding ideas of that land. other ethnicity develop sub nationalism. But when your own ethnicity in a way informs nationalism of the land, why would you need sub nationalism?

            P.S: There is a dialogue in Sacred Games S1 , where a marathi asks “why do N-Indians think they are better Hindus than us?” , this statement illustrates the stark difference b/w who owns what.

          6. “LOL as if Delhi has some inherent culture or language. Its a soul less city, which was once colonized by Punjabis and now increasingly by us.”

            There’s a reason you speak khadi boli and Awadhi/Bhojpuri are looked down upon. There’s also a reason Pakistanis speak Urdu and Punjabi is looked down upon. Delhi has been a state unto itself for the longest time owing to its pivotal position between the Indus and the Gangetic plains. It doesn’t matter what ethnicity controls it.

            “I guess we both are thinking about diff timelines. My idea is more from historic India, rather than post independence India.”

            A lot of ethnicities can pick and choose the timeline to give themselves a grandiose role in the ‘Idea of India’.

            Gujaratis can rightly claim to have built the modern nation state. Bengalis can point to Tagore or to Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Marathis can claim to have led the Hindu reconquista, Kannadigas the last resistance to Islam, Tamils/Mallus the bhakti movement, and Punjabis almost all the IVC stuff and the Vedic cannon.

            “We made India. Others have benefited/suffered/progressed/regressed (including us) over time . That does not take away from the first statement.”

            Lol. The last thousand years, UP has just been steam rolled over by one foreign ruler after another.

            And as I said, even if one assumes you did make India, it has not much relevance today. UP is a sub-Saharan shithole for most of the rest of the country.

          7. “Gujaratis can rightly claim to have built the modern nation state. Bengalis can point to Tagore or to Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Marathis can claim to have led the Hindu reconquista, Kannadigas the last resistance to Islam, Tamils/Mallus the bhakti movement, and Punjabis almost all the IVC stuff and the Vedic cannon.”

            And all of them , did in service of a religion/culture which we made. As i said , there is no Hinduism or India without us.

            Just like no Islam without Arabs, not withstanding the inputs/services of subsequent ethnicities.

          8. “And all of them , did in service of a religion/culture which we made. As i said , there is no Hinduism or India without us.”

            The idea that UP ‘made’ Hinduism is itself a modern myth. Much like UPites claiming that Hindi is the true inheritor of Sanskrit. A laughable claim outside a parochial bubble.

            This myth, though, helps maintain stability in a dirt poor society. So it’s a win-win for everyone. UP folks are sort of living their own Truman Show.

            This historical narrative has little relevance today and it’s only decreasing with time.

            A very weak analogy would be Italy claiming they ‘made’ Europe when we know that modern Europe is essentially a project of Germanic peoples. Not even false but irrelevant.

            It has some utility for the other European peoples since they can use Romans/Greeks to bolster their own pedigree. But who really cares about Italy or Greece anymore?

          9. “And as I said, even if one assumes you did make India, it has not much relevance today.”

            Given the fertility rate, UP will continue to be very relevant most likely.

        2. “Well when you know that you the progenitor of all thing cultural, religious and language of a land”

          Shouldn’t drink your own kool-aid.

          The primary language and culture of the Indian state come from Delhi.

          UP and Bihar have been so thoroughly colonised by Delhi that they think they’re the progenitors. They’re just tools to be used by Delhi to continue to perpetuate its hegemony.

          Sort of like how Pakistani Muslims think about Islam. Since they were thoroughly converted, they think of themselves as victors and not loser converts.

          “To compensate for their lack of role in the founding ideas of that land. other ethnicity develop sub nationalism.”

          As I said, don’t drink your own kool-aid. In any case, that founding was 70 years ago. UP was more central to India then than it is now. The rest of the nation has moved on. The people of UP should too.

          “But when your own ethnicity in a way informs nationalism of the land, why would you need sub nationalism?”

          Well, if most of your state lives at a sub-Saharan level and and your co-ethnics are treated as third grade scum in other parts of the nation you claim to own then its time to ponder whether this is true. And if you’re still steadfastly bought into the delusion then you ought to think whether it has done you any good.

          1. No one drinking any kool aid. LOL as if Delhi has some inherent culture or language. Its a soul less city, which was once colonized by Punjabis and now increasingly by us.

            I guess we both are thinking about diff timelines. My idea is more from historic India, rather than post independence India. No one has won over UP-Bihar and we are the ones who converted rest of India to our religion, culture and language. I dont live in any dream land unlike other ethnicity who think/believe in “Idea of India”, as if they are the co-inheritor of Indian heritage.

            We made India. Others have benefited/suffered/progressed/regressed (including us) over time . That does not take away from the first statement.

    2. – It’s pretty crazy that Punjab province has a worse HDI than Bihar state.

      – The difference between Indian Punjab and Pakistani Punjab is stark, even though both are at / near the top in their respective countries.

      – Rather surprising that Nepal has a higher HDI than Pakistan, even the most developed province of Pakistan.

      – Afghanistan, KP & Balochistan seem pretty similar in HDI.

      – For all the deep hatred the RW has for Bengalis, West Bengal is right around average

      – I didn’t include all the small NE states outside of Assam, but together they would be solidly above the Indian average in HDI.

      – Would be very interesting to see disaggregated data for UP’s regions. Western UP would likely be right up there with Haryana and Punjab, or at any rate solidly above the Indian average. Eastern UP is probably the same as Bihar (if not lower) in HDI.

      – Really need to see some development in the east-central region; namely Eastern UP, Jharkhand, Odisha, Chhattisgarh, Bihar & MP. I think splitting up UP & Bihar further would be helpful in this regard.

      – Poor Sindh. How did it end up that way?

      – Selfishly, I’m happy to see West Bengal have a solid lead over Bangladesh.

      We have the Best Punjab and the Best Bengal 🙂

  36. https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/680831-pervaiz-elahi-opposes-new-temple-in-islamabad

    Punjab Assembly Speaker Chaudhry Pervaiz Elahi has said that Pakistan was created in the name of Islam, and construction of a new temple in its capital Islamabad is not only against the spirit of Islam but also an insult to the Madina Riayasat. On the occasion of conquest of Makkah, Holy Prophet Syeduna Muhammad (PBUH) along with Hazrat Ali Murtaza (RA) had smashed the 360 idols present in Baitullah Sharif and also had stated “Haq Aya Aur Batil Mit Gaya Baishak Batil Mitney Wala Thaa”

    1. Pakistani Hindus are citizens of Pakistan and absolutely entitled to a temple, no matter what bigots think.

      Stop trolling Pakistan. Your own Occupation forces murdered a 60 year old man and then posed his 3 year old grandson on his chest to take pictures. Do you have anything to say about that?

    2. TBH that’s the truth, i dont see much issues with that.

      Already feel the “Indus people” spirit flowing thru his veins.

  37. Why isn’t there a Bundelkhand state already?

    a) No major cities around which a movement can build. Uttarakhand had Dekhradun, Chattisgarh had Raipur, Telangana had Hyderabad.

    Gwalior (technically not even Bundelkhand) is too MP to push for Bundelkhand. Jhansi is the only viable candidate but Jhansi is shit.

    b) Insurgency type statehood fight is out of question. Too much infighting action going on amongst Gurjars, Yadavs, Nishads(+), etc. The oppressors are not outside but inside. All the usual ” they stole our resources” drama (think Balochistan) is not valid as the sand, mining mafia is local not some national company sitting in Lucknow.

    c) Lucknow gives much-much more than it takes (think a mini Kashmir for state expenditure).

    d) Caste strongholds for both SP and BSP. Helps them win election in entire UP.

    e) People are too uneducated to realize the benifit of getting extra central funding. Plus they are the most moti buddhi of any Indian people I know. Guns, kidnapping, until recently dacoits, smuggling, all sorts of pollutants have destroyed the intellectual culture. Bribes are rampant and those in power(i.e. government jobs) got their’s through bribes (8 Lakh for school teacher, 20 Lakh for Police Inspector last year). The society is rotten to the core, dishonesty, lecherousness and a general lack of commitment to making things better.

    UP is massive and has just 2 IITs and 1 NIT same as J&K UT. It should be broken down.

    1. Agree. An India with 50 states with no unit having more than say 50M people would be an ideal to strive for. Would be more federal and better for local cultures. But massively increased likelihood of corruption and wastage.

      Moving the capital to a central location like Nagpur or Hyderabad won’t be a bad idea as well.

  38. “People are too uneducated to realize the benifit of getting extra central funding.”

    UP-Bihar can’t be either divided (peacefully) or be given extra funding. Already other states who are footing the bill have this view that UP-Bihar gets too much for what they put in. If the states are divided further, they will lose whatever little bargaining power due to number of MPs they bring to the table. They will have to either stand united or the smaller divided states would hang seperately.

    As they say, be careful, what you wish for.

    “Moving the capital to a central location like Nagpur or Hyderabad won’t be a bad idea as well.”

    Much of India’s issues have to do with the fascination of building new stuff, rather than making existing stuff work. Look at the whole shit how around Andhra;s new capital Amravati. I would be surprised if it comes up in a decade. For some context

    https://www.indiatoday.in/elections/jharkhand-assembly-election/story/jharkhand-gets-own-assembly-building-19-years-after-being-carved-out-of-bihar-1600628-2019-09-19

    As they say, don’t fix something which ain’t broken

    1. I do understand the loss of bargaining power and I think this is the main reason why no one in UP is really pushing for a breakup. We are too weak compared to peninsular states and there is strength in numbers.

      What does bother me is the uneven distribution of central enterprises. Bengal got Chitaranjan and GRSE, TN got Avadi, ICF, Karnataka got HAL, BHEL, BEML , Maharashtra got oil and gas while we were handed poop.

      I hope we will be good at (making) something in the future. I don’t trust Tamils/Telugus to pay our bills long term. My father says that availability of land, electricity and transport is improving under Yogi. Hopefully he has some plans for us other than building the temple, his handling of Covid was not as bad as I had expected.

      1. All the states you mentioned always had industrial base right from independence which they built up. With freeing of resource transfer from interior India to coastal states, they build up significantly, and thus even the outlier cities, and eventual the states benefited. No one was really handed poop, we eventually became poop because of the polices we deployed.

        There is no genuine worry on fiscal imbalance overall. The fiscal imbalance is countered by electoral imbalance. Its a silent acceptance of staus quo. N-Indian states will not talk about getting more electoral seats in lieu of S-Indian states not talking about fiscal imbalance.

        1. “we eventually became poop because of the polices we deployed.”
          @Bhimaro @Saurav

          Policies are just one part of it. The culture is also to blame. The epitome of success in feudal north India is the ability to ‘do nothing’ – Being a laath sahib.

          Hard work and enterprise are generally discouraged and there is a lot of envy in the society. There’s a reason Punjabis and Baniyas are mistrusted.

          The culture of UP is basically all the scorn of a Bhadralok but without any of the sophistication.

          “Moving the capital to a central location like Nagpur or Hyderabad won’t be a bad idea as well.”
          @Siddharth

          Moving the capital wholesale is a Tughlaqi idea. What can be tried, though is spreading the decision making geographically piecemeal. Can start with having a bench of SC in Nagpur and maybe some government departments elsewhere.

          (ISRO and DST are already in Bangalore I think and that might explain their somewhat more efficient functioning.)

          1. There comes a time in all ethncities life where they have to make peace with what they have and try to build on it. The strength of gangetic belt with higher population, agriculture economy etc was good for 100s of years. That;s the reason pan Indian empires rose from these areas.

            Unfortunately the nature of economy, trade etc have changed. Long story short UP/Bihar do not posses the advantages which this age gives, which is heavily tilted towards coastal areas. So rather than keep on psycho-anylising on why they are not Maharashtra or TamilNadu (which they can never become) , its better to play to their strength AKA become a bigger Kerala, exporting its manpower to outside India, rather than within India, which bring in less remittance.

            That’s the only short/medium term play, rather than waiting for what the centre can do for them.

          2. “So rather than keep on psycho-anylising on why they are not Maharashtra or TamilNadu”

            The people of UP owe it to themselves to reflect on why they have developed a depraved culture. There’s no psycho-analysing here.

            You fix things by admitting there’s something wrong.

            “(which they can never become) ”

            Concur on this. UP-ites are no Germans.
            UP had an industrial base at the time of independence that it frittered away. (Think status of Kanpur then and now)

            So useless to follow the same policies as Maharashtra or Tamil Nadu.

            “its better to play to their strength AKA become a bigger Kerala, exporting its manpower to outside India, rather than within India, which bring in less remittance.”

            More important to have basics right. Improve abysmal primary education, build roads, curb crime. Don’t go for big shiny infra projects.

            You first need human capital to be able to export it. For all its population, there’s very little in terms of human capital in UP. Only the cream of the society (fair skinned Brahmins) are able to migrate. They end up in Karnataka or Maharashtra working as security guards and janitors.

            Once you have can educate your people at scale, whether these people choose to open businesses or go abroad and send remittances is something the forces of demand and supply at any given point will decide.

          3. “Don’t go for big shiny infra projects.”

            So true. There are a lot of cost effective policy options to address basic issues that people face every day. There are states within India and countries elsewhere that are equally poor but still making life better for its people.

            Even worse than big shiny infra projects are things like the Patel statue.

          4. “Unfortunately the nature of economy, trade etc have changed. Long story short UP/Bihar do not posses the advantages which this age gives, which is heavily tilted towards coastal areas. So rather than keep on psycho-anylising on why they are not Maharashtra or TamilNadu (which they can never become) , its better to play to their strength AKA become a bigger Kerala, exporting its manpower to outside India, rather than within India, which bring in less remittance.”

            There’s a lot that UP-Bihar could do. Also, Western UP is already developed (at least relative to the Indian context). That’s like 20%+ of the population of the region.

  39. The best comment on UP was made by Shyam Prasad Mukherjee. Opening a discussion on UP in Parliament he began, “India, that is Bharat, that is UP,………”

    A close friend and a colleague was once accused by the Government of being anti-Indian. Discussing the charge with me he asked plaintively “Mujhe batiye, maiN ek UP ka Hindi bolne wala Hindu, anti national kaise ho sakta hoon” (How can I, a Hindu speaking Hindu from UP being anti national)? Indeed, though it raised the question whether the charge could be true if he was a Bengali, or Tamil speaking Hindu from elsewhere.
    The accusation had not been seriously made and it was not meant to be followed up. But what if my friend had not been a Hindu.

    1. “The best comment on UP was made by Shyam Prasad Mukherjee. Opening a discussion on UP in Parliament he began, “India, that is Bharat, that is UP,………””

      Perceptive guy i would add 😛

    2. “Indeed, though it raised the question whether the charge could be true if he was a Bengali, or Tamil speaking Hindu from elsewhere.”

      We all know the answer to that, no? 😛

  40. A few weeks ago I made a post about U2c having links to d and e, at least a closer link to d and e than to a and b. Yesterday I came across the familytreedna mtDNA haplotree and found out that they list U2c, U2d and U2e under U2-T152C!. More specifically U2c’d and U2e being the 2 descendants.

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/mt-dna-haplotree/U

    Had I known about this earlier I would have linked it in a short message lol.

  41. Not fact checked.

    NCAT in its “India: Annual Report on Torture 2019” released Friday on the occasion of the International Day in Support of Victims of Torture stated that a total of 1,731 persons died in custody during 2019 i.e. death of about five persons daily. These included 1,606 deaths in judicial custody and 125 deaths in police custody. While during 2018, a total of 1,966 custodial deaths were reported including 147 deaths in police custody and 1,819 deaths in judicial custody. These figures do not reflect the extent and actual incidents of custodial death and torture in the country”, warned the report.

    http://muslimmirror.com/eng/india-records-daily-five-deaths-in-custody-most-victims-from-muslim-dalit-and-marginalised-communities-report/

Comments are closed.