How much steppe is there in Pakistan?

In the annoying dick-swinging competition that are the comments-board, someone asserted Pakistanis have a lot of steppe even on the maternal side. Really?

We have Sintashta mtDNA and the discordance was shocking to me. But there are some groups in Pakistan with detectable Sintashta mtDNA. These samples from Hazara, Kho, Pashtun, Kashmiri,and Kalash. They identify 8.4% steppe mtDNA. Pakistan as a whole has a lot more “West Eurasian” mtDNA, but that’s obviously due to the legacy of the IVC. Anyway, Complete mitogenomes document substantial genetic contribution from the Eurasian Steppe into northern Pakistani Indo-Iranian speakers:

In summary, based on available archeological and high-resolution mitogenome data from northwestern Pakistan, especially from Iranian and Dardic populations, who are suggested to be the surviving traces of early Indo-Iranian groups, we identified the genetic contributions of different dispersals from west Eurasia into northern Pakistan during the Bronze Age onward. Importantly, we identified five haplogroups as the genetic legacy of IE speakers from the Eurasian Steppe, likely dispersed along with the migration of IE-speaking populations during the Bronze Age into northern Pakistan, thus implying that IE language expansion into South Asia was not simply mediated by cultural diffusion. This migration contributed 8.4% of the gene pool of northern Pakistani IE speakers, suggesting this demographic connection, which is a possible source of IE language diffusion, could be one part of the complex demographic history of the region. Our results also provide implications on the two main hypotheses of IE language origination, viz. Anatolia and Steppe hypotheses. Considering that Steppe components were observed in all Indo-Iranian groups in northern Pakistan in our study, as well as in other regions in South Asia [10], while lineages possibly representing the genetic legacy of Neolithic farmers, e.g., R2e, K1, were either absent or not found in all of the IE-speaking groups in northern Pakistan, our results lend more support to the Steppe hypothesis, at least from a matrilineal perspective. Furthermore, these IE speakers, as evidenced by the genetic legacy identified here, also moved southward and contributed genetically, though to a rather limited extent, to the Indian subcontinent, suggesting northern Pakistan as a corridor in the spread of IE languages during the Bronze Age dispersals into South Asia. Since our study is only based on mtDNA data, which only reflect maternal histories of populations, more investigations based on genome-wide data are also needed to intensively dissect the expansion of IE speakers into South Asia.

19 thoughts on “How much steppe is there in Pakistan?

  1. Frankly there is a ton of straw man from the usual suspects. Steppe supremacists raided the previous thread as usual, when I brought up that it is dumb as hell on multiple levels for them to express the types of supremacist feelings they have towards that aspect of their ancestry, ancestry that is a MINORITY among pretty much ALL S Asians.

    There was all sorts of weird strawmanning going on, claims that I don’t think AMT is the best theory currently out there: I do.

    There were also claims that I am somehow angry that the steppe males killed off a portion of the at the time native elite and copulated disproportionately with at the time native women. I am not.

    What annoys me is the false sense of pride people take about behind descended from such a situation and all of the insinuations and direct statements of being racially superior that come from it, when comparing to the, often marginally, “less mixed” crowd. That’s what is annoying. Taking pride either way is stupid. It’s just that one end of the spectrum seems to do it way more.

    Did I play a role in attracting the fleas? Yes, I gave them a sniff of of some troll fruit with my initial “cucking” remarks, perhaps knowing a little too well the type of attention that would follow.

    In the end, I did my job. The clowns came out one by one. I got the fool who you exposed via this article with his nonsensical mtDNA statements. And I got another one who scoured the internet for Andamese men dick pics, a guy who doesn’t even know what “statistically significant” means. His poor attempt at interpreting the paper I cited just ended in what could be described as a purposeful strawman or an inadvertent demonstration of poor reading comprehension.

    As expected, these supremacist types tend to have their fair share of low IQ morons, unsurprising given that bigots do tend to be disproportionately stupid. They lack individual achievements so they cling onto supposed ancestral ones, something magnified in the S Asian context. They then outright lie and/or hyperbolize these supposed ancestral “achievements,” and attempt to differentiate themselves from what they perceive to be “lower peoples.”

    1. Very well said. It’s funny because I feel like the actual horse riding Kazakhs don’t have as much pride in their 100% steppe ancestry as much as 33.456% steppe South Asians do.

    2. //There were also claims that I am somehow angry that the steppe males killed off a portion of the at the time native elite and copulated disproportionately with at the time native women. I am not.//

      This I can tell really irks you, because you always bring it up. You even posted some link recently about daughters of Indian Kings who were taken as concubines and made to dance for the sultans.

      Why is it that Hindu Nats have such a defeated mindset? Genghis Khan got cucked, he also went on and ”cucked” many Central Asian nobles.. who cares? You don’t see any of the other groups so focused on these issues.. I have talked to hardcore Afghan nats, Turkish nats, Islamic nats.. And none of them every display this fascination with historical atrocities, *especially regarding females*.. but here you have mass of people with anxiety about ‘love jihad’ that even makes it into legislation. Is it because of the skewed gender ratio? Is it because of lack of historical military conquests the other way? I wasn’t into this these types of topics but its very intriguing to me on how it ruffles the feathers.

      1. “Love Jihad” is a misnomer. I am not against people of age of consent voluntarily getting married. And nothing of that sort irks me.

        But a lot of underage kidnappings, fraud about religious status, and Mosque incentivized chicanery to convert as many people as possible, even via illegal means, is the problem. The reality is that is a “Trafficking/Rape Jihad” issue.

        People just keep saying normal consensual relations irk me and you are doing the same shit. That doesn’t make it true. Look at the links I post. It is mostly human trafficking related, in this context. If anything, it is the steppe supremacists R1a clowns who brag about being descended from the rapist “superior” males that I just find funny. So I bring up the irony of their bragging. That’s what I do.

        Rape happened in the past. Everyone has it in their lineage. But getting too obsessed with lineage, to the point of even over venerating rapist ancestors, is strange very best.

      2. Islamic invader atrocities are brought up because the communist Indian textbooks downplay them so much. The Hindu Right has just pushed to bring balance to show that mass rape and killing was a phenomena that afflicted S Asia with these invasions. People white wash history. Hindu Nats do their version of it. But the cultural Marxist white washed version is what was official until recently. Hindu Nats bring balance.

        On the other hand, Pak has little of this. Pak is like if Hindu Nats could write textbooks with impunity. The hatred for Hindus inculcated in the people is nothing short of shocking.

        Hindu nationalism is a reaction to help balance things closer to the truth because cultural marxists have really put the opposite biased spin on things.

    1. yeah Franciso posted not one, but 5 links. Then bragged he looked at Eastern Euro dicks to compare and implied American ones were small like India ones due to racial diversity, when confronted with actual data from a peer reviewed study form a nature link I posed that stated in the conclusion that the mean erect penile length in India and USA showed no significant difference in the Kerela sample of 500 men taken in 2007.

      The guy is a nutbag. He then brought up several times how the larger supposed dick size of the steppe people resulted in greater pleasure among the AASI women and how modern Indian men who are against this view are just displaying “penis envy.” His trainwreck line of argumentation, inability to read at a basic level, and very unusual peversion, to the point of likely going through hundreds of penile images to prove a weird racial point, one unsupported by the literature, was laughable at first but eventual just started to seemed tragic.

      Take a read. You’ll be shocked at what you witness. The 5 minutes is worth it. I can assure you.

      1. @thewarlock Seems like you were taking jibe there.They are not only proud of their ancestry but what their ancestors achieved on various stages too.Its definitely clever yet stupid to take proud of only quater of the ancestry but until unless we have clearer picture of aryans and their genes( As mentioned several times they were probably not pure steppes).It is not wise for scholars to make any rockstrong claim but bourgeois are free to do any dance on it.

      2. That nature dick size study was actually surprising, i just assumed indians were probably on avg. somewhat less endowed.

        What other ‘whisperer’ studies are you aware of ?

        One claim I often hear repeated is Pakistani men are the 3rd sexiest in America and Indian men last or something ?

        Doesn’t pass the smell test. I don’t think Pakistan / Pakistani men have much positive brand recognition in the West vis-a-vis Indians.

        1. The BBC condom thing was extrapolated so much to make fun of Indian men. People just ignored the real and less exciting data when it came out.

          I have to find the source for the 3rd sexist. It was legit some random web survey I think that even used half S Asians like Zayn Malik as representatives. We also in another thread, at naseum, discussed S Asian interracial data in the West and showed time and time again that there is heavy endogamy among all groups and that if anything Indian men marry out a tiny bit more actually. But S Asian men in general, including in places like Canada that are heavily Punjabi diaspora, on average interacially date the least and do not have good results on dating surveys. This is changing of course. But the data are what the data are. Btw, on UK surveys middle eastern men don’t far too great either. And E asians seem to always get shafted too.

          But just like some khalistani supremacists act like The Great Khali is a normal phenotype among them (I am exaggerating I know but not even by as much you would think), other side of the border Birdari supremacists act like the average looking guy is Imran Khan or Zayn Malik. These people put thousands of hours just into making racialized cherry picked memes of poor S Asians from elsewhere and juxtaposing them next to Bollywoodoid Punjabis. You cannot underestimate how deeply entrenched their racialism is.

          Regardless, supremacists do whatever they can to portray themsleves as maximally steppe as possible and minimally AASI,in attempt to dehumanize us relatively more AASI on average people.

          Like I said, Bengal 1971 was the embodiment of the worst that the racialism present has to offer.

          I have just debated with them long enough to know all of their idiotic tricks and lies.

  2. i am slightly unsure of the conclusions in general about assertions about Male Mediated migrations. I may be wrong but i can easily visualize the scenarios where 3:1 Male:Female migration can lead to almost can become 15:1 in 2000 years with Star like explosions. Especially in cases where offspring of Y(IA) with mtDNA(IVC) & had more legitimacy in the emerging Arya world.

    Also by historical accounts the Indo Scythians were more gender equal – could that be a reason for Sintashtha mtDNA in Pakistan ?

    1. Sintashta were Bronze-Age Indo-Iranians and were much earlier than Iron Age Scythians.

      Unlike Scythians,Sintashta also had very less East Asian and were very Europoid People.

  3. I became interested in this site because it focused on genetics from a South Asian perspective without the racial buffoonery you get on anthrogenica or eurogenes. I guess all good things must come to an end. Sigh.

    1. I try my best to clean it up. They tend to stay away, when confronted with facts.

  4. Not a population geneticist so not really aware of how populations are sampled but it seems like whenever we talk about Indian/Pakistani populations, there is finer cast/regional resolution for Indian populations while massive disparate Pakistani groups are taken as a whole e.g “Pashtun” or “Baluch”. Not sure how we can class “Pashtun” as a single group of people. They are massively divided on tribal/regional basis and practice endogamy. Just looking at phenotypes, Afridis in the north look much different from Durranis and Kakars in the southern parts of the Pashtun range.

    1. @BaasiDabalRoti
      Here’s how I see the difference between Indian and Pakistani genetic landscape.

      Let’s talk about 3 regions: Western Pakistan, Eastern Pakistan and India excluding NE.

      In Western Pakistan (including Gilgit Baltistan), the genetic structure is geographic. Like West Asia or Europe. The ethnicities score like they should for their geographic location. Intra-ethnic variation is also based on geography.

      In Eastern Pakistan, the genetic structure is shifting from a primarily biradari based to geographic. Completion of this process will take a while.

      In India excluding NE, it’s mostly caste based genetic structure. A Punjabi Chamar scores like Ganges Brahmin, a Gujarati Jain scores like Southern Brahmin, etc. You cannot tell someone’s genetic makeup simply by knowing their ancestral town or village.

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