165 thoughts on “Open Thread – 12/3/2021 – Brown Pundits”

  1. Yet to see a significant Indian tech founder rather than someone who minds the business after it has been established.

    1. You are basically talking about white American males then. I cant think of a significant tech company not founded by a non-American (born there or moved during childhood).

      1. @Vikram

        Did you miss the white hot comet called Tesla??

        This is literally a South African guy first moving to Canada and then to the US. No tech-fluff either. Hard innovation taking on a whole entrenched ecosystem. And Tesla is not a unicorn.

        Having said all of this, some of the top engineering and finance talent at Tesla is Indian.

        But you need to come around to start accepting that Indians will be managers and not radical innovators. If it happens it will be in India and not in the US.

    2. @Ali Chaudhary
      This is frankly a babloo-chhap comment…

      Vinod Khosla SUN Microsystems
      Suhas Patil Cirrus Logic
      Rajeev Motwani Google (Brin’s advisor at Stanford)

  2. Man we could have an overturn of Roe…this is where the fun begins.

    I feel like this is a place where conservatives are damned either way. Failure to overturn will invalidate all the work done to get Federalist Society judges appointed, and divide and disillusion conservatives.

    An overturn will galvanize the Left into doing whatever they can to facilitate abortion. They will pass new laws in Blue States, use VAs to provide surgical abortions, and likely facilitate delivery of Mifepristone/Misoprostol (chemical abortion supplies) to Red States using the Federal government, or just networks of activists/lawyers/physicians.

    Things could get very ugly.

    1. The republican elite doesn’t get the can of worms they have opened. Considering that we all know how less they care about all this issues themselves. And they will be forever be damned to defend something they don’t believe in.

      It’s like how for the BJP, the farmers act and CAA turned out to be. Atleast the BJP pulled back before it was too late.

  3. The US is still lucky to get Indian top talent. But for how long can that be taken for granted? Indian unicorns (valuations with >$1 billion) have exploded in recent years. They now number well over 60. As late as 2017 there were only 10.

    The US will continue to be attractive to non-IT folks, but if you’re an ambitious founder then the attraction of a strong domestic IT economy coupled with the advantages of staying close to your family and friends, the culture you know etc will be a harder combination to beat for US firms trying to lure Indian talent onto its shores.

    Relevant chart: https://i.imgur.com/2AMJIFX.png

  4. State of politics in more-Hindu region.

    https://twitter.com/indiatoday/status/1466935286005256193?s=21

    “ We are a true Hindutva party. Lord Ram’s message is Hindutva. BJP lynches Dalits, that is not Hindutva: Delhi CM @ArvindKejriwal“

    State of politics in less-Hindu region.

    https://www.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/p-chidambaram-slams-hindutva-brigade-after-cancellation-of-faruqui-s-show-121113000307_1.html

    “ P Chidambaram slams ‘Hindutva brigade’ after cancellation of Faruqui’s show“

  5. 1. There are a lot of Indian founders running successful companies in the US. Take the enterprise data storage market for example – Nutanix, Cohesity, Rubrik are big players here.

    In hard tech, you have the likes of Juniper Networks.
    And in deep tech you have QuantumScape.

    Many more…

    Indian founders are not able to crack consumer startups. A reason for this could be that they do not understand the American audience too well.

    That said you still have the likes of Instacart that was last valued at $39 billion.

    2. The total pool of potential Indian-American entrepreneurs is substantially less than the pool of managers due to visa issues. The long green card queue means folks can’t afford to leave their jobs.

    I have plenty of really smart friends who want to start something but can’t. A few are planning to come back to India. If that 7% quota went away, you would start to feel the difference in some years.

    (I actually think it’s good that the rule exists. Keeps some talent in India and also diversifies the diaspora by directing part of it to other Anglophone countries.)

  6. https://asiatimes.com/2021/12/pakistan-struggling-to-pay-its-debts-to-china/

    Pak stuck between a rock and a hard place. IMF (controlled by the West) is squeezing them dry. China is tired of their perpetual beggar behaviour and inability to pay off debts.

    In theory, a middling power like Pak should try to play both superpowers against each other. In practice, they’ve managed to alienate both. I still remember when people were hailing Pak as geopolitical geniuses because they were accidental beneficiaries from Afghanistan’s implosion.

  7. https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/world/un-plans-to-drastically-expand-plastic-waste-management-in-india-7787781.html/amp

    UN plans to drastically expand plastic waste management in India

    The United Nations Development Programme aims to almost triple its plastic waste management to 100 cities in India by 2024, A UNDP executive said, to combat the damaging effects of plastic pollution.

    The UNDP programme, which began in 2018, has so far collected 83,000 metric tonne of plastic waste. India generates about 3.4 million tonnes of plastic waste annually, according to official estimates.

    “In India although about 60% of plastic is recycled, we are still seeing the damage that plastic pollution is causing,” Nadia Rasheed, Deputy Resident Representative, UNDP India, said in an interview at the Reuters Next conference broadcast on Friday

    The UNDP is working with federal think tank, NITI Aayog and have jointly developed a ‘handbook’ model for local municipalities as well as the private sector.

  8. Islam and pakistan has been a distraction and a way to shore up asabiya, but it is doing more harm now, our asabiya is not sophisticated enough to move to important issues like economy/culture, education etc. Time to build this.

    1. Indian racism vs Indian religion would be interesting to see.

      Devotee Africans might be the very first African group who will get to marry practicing Indian Hindus.

      Not eating cow and not being Muslim (mleccha) seem to be the only non-negotiable conditions that I have seen in practice. Desiring fair skinned groom is not that big a thing. I have been seeing a lot of dark skinned Madraasi men marrying UP ladies.

      1. “ . I have been seeing a lot of dark skinned Madraasi men marrying UP ladies.“

        … rather, me thinks u have been seeing far too many South Indian movies 😂😂

    2. Sustainability:
      (1) Abrahamic faiths are becoming more and more toothless. [email protected]
      (2) Scandals.
      (3) This is barely the first wave. India is Hindu Arabia, with money will come a lot more monks.

  9. principia and vickram

    Sri Lanka is an old AASI peoples
    With inheritance of egalitarian principles

    Hopeful my people will survive Indian Invasions

    1. For the last time. There is and will be no Indian invasions. We don’t care about half of the things down south of our own country. And here U are talking about another country altogether.

      1. Lol….the munna of the Gangetic Hindu ancestors knows nothing but shrivel and impotence. Doesn’t understand other regions where conquest and empire building is intrinsic to culture. Can’t blame him – his ancestral patrimony is to bend over.

        Recommended Books –

        Kalki Krishnamurthy – Ponniyin Selvan
        Sandilyan – Kadal Pura
        Nilakanta Sastry – The Cholas

      2. Saurav

        There is and will be no Indian invasions. We don’t care about half of the things down south of our own country. And here U are talking about another country altogether.

        Maybe not a armed invasion. India is still trying to create a separate state in North and East. Using the 1987 India Lanka accord and 13th amendment (devolution). India is in breach of India SL accord because it could not tame the Tigers they trained and supported.

        While Sumanthiran was busy trying to get support in the US for devolution, India nixed a USD 12 million hybrid solar wind power project by China in the North. China moved the project to the Maldives.

        The looser, the Tamils in the North. Sumanthiran and his ilk seem manage to shoot down economic development for Tamils.

        Then of course you get the almost daily invasions by Tamil Nadu fishermen into SL territorial water. Even worse TN fishermen use bottom trawls (illegal in SL) make the ocean bottom a desert.

        1. I guess nothing would really convince Lankans. Though wont blame u , considering our past.

          Last time around due to political and ethnic reasons, India was dependent and was led down a garden path by its tamil leaders vis-v Sri Lanka. I dont see that scenario ever repeating. In the near future, Indian tamil leaders would be agitating for their own political future (due to oncoming delimitation exercise) , rather than get worried on SL tamils.

        2. > India is still trying to create a separate state in North and East.

          He Prabhu!! Why would Indians try to create a state where there would be 30%+ Muslims?

          Sri Lankans and Nepalese are some of the most ungrateful neighbours one can get. I mean, you can understand Bangladesh due to partition and Islam.

          But Lankans and Nepalese take the cake. India extended credit lines during this currency crisis. India is also helping with the fertilizer crisis(urea prices have sky rocketed) but this guy is more worried about some 50-100 MW solar project.

          Guess the Indians should be more like Chinese at Gwadar port where they use trawlers to haul away all the fish.

          1. fragment_and_activities
            But Lankans and Nepalese take the cake. India extended credit lines during this currency crisis. India is also helping with the fertilizer crisis(urea prices have sky rocketed) but this guy is more worried about some 50-100 MW solar project.

            Apparently Mr. Fragmented Ideas has no idea of India’s fostering of three decades of civil war in Sri Lanka. India and Indira Gandhi trained and fostered the LTTE. When I hear idiots like Mr. Fragmented, very glad the LTTE (who were trained by RAW) killed Rajiv Gandhi on Indian soil. No different from Sikhs killing Indira Gandhi.

          2. For the guy who said India fostered Tamil nationalism, that is unfair. India did not ask Sirimavo and the following Sinhala Presidents/PM’s to treat Tamil as second grade citizens and disenfranchise a large set of population.

            Not to mention, giving refueling permission for Pakistan on its war against India.
            Inspite of all that, obviously India Srilanka has a decent relationship where India has been a constant giver in terms of resources. So, yes, Srilanka indeed is ungrateful from an Indian perspective.

          3. @sbarrkum you seem to think that only you have read history. India supported the insurgency due to Tamils living across the Palk Strait and abysmal treatment of Tamils by Sinhalas.

            India learnt her lessons, she lost a lot of troops in 90s and finally a Prime Minister. Didn’t interfere when Rajapaksas went after LTTE. No support of insurgency whatsoever since then. Heck, Indian intelligence even shared info before the Easter attacks.

            But what do I know, I am just an Indian.

            It would be funny to see how Mr sbarkkum reacts when Islamists finally take over the eastern parts and radicals from all over the world fly to fight. Would still blame India, I guess.

          4. fragment_and_activities says
            It would be funny to see how Mr sbarkkum reacts when Islamists finally take over the eastern parts and radicals from all over the world fly to fight. Would still blame India, I guess.

            Not going to happen while the Rajapakses are in power. These are a paranoid lot much like Modi.

            If the Islamists do take over under some other govt, expect it to spill over into India too. Already TN and Kerala are hot beds of Islamists. Many of the Easter bomber had strong South Indian connections

          5. “Already TN and Kerala are hot beds of Islamists. ”

            What! My beloved dravidian Hindu-land is hot bed of Islamist!

            Oh my Periyar!

        3. I agree with your assessment that India is trying to do something to Srilanka but remember Srilanka acted smart in 1971 war against Pakistan. The entire tamil insurgency is what [email protected]’s brainchild because of the same 1971 stand. We didn’t expect Srilanka’s behaviour will be such.
          For the last 2 decades, SriLanka again started playing India against China after Rajapakshe wiped out LTTE. Don’t get me wrong, I support Rajapaksa’s stand and as a Sinhalese and majority I support your stand but when you join hands with our adversary then all hell will break lose.
          Fun fact- India doesn’t give two scoots about the Tamils in Srilanka. We overstepped our relationship with US, SriLanka went even beyond India with the US. You will see a full-scale christian Tamil insurgency like we faced in the NorthEast in 1970 which was the consequence of a subversion tactic to reduce Soviet Influence. You on the other hand went deep with the US. There is no turning back now, SriLanka will go the same fate as Japan and South Korea where Buddhism will decline and Christianity will rise.

    1. I will repeat for the nth time—
      Diversity leads to identity politics. India has had diverse groups living side by side for the longest time. Hence todays situation.
      At some point in last 50 or maybe 100 years the Anglo Saxon establishment figured they could recreate a stable “caste system” in the territories of erstwhile British Raj + US. Ofc they would be at the Apex of such a pyramid. Recently there was a map shared on Twitter of US grand plan in early 1940s which enumerated the world areas which US needs to be able to sustain it’s economy at first world standards. That map was almost recreating the British Raj with the addition of jp and soko.

      1. England used to be diverse and to this day Norman surnames are highly correlated with SES based on studies.

        But English people with Norman surnames don’t have an identity as belonging to a ‘Norman’ caste.

        (Not sure about genetics but guessing its lacks the sort of structure Indian castes have as a result of no endogamy).

        My theory is you need roti / beti exclusion (segregation and endogamy) over the course of generations in order to identity politics to be a thing.

        This can happen with religion, race, caste etc doesn’t matter. (Not sure about sexual and gender identity related politics, I suspect this is downstream from breakdown of the family unit)

        1. “My theory is you need roti / beti exclusion (segregation and endogamy) over the course of generations in order to identity politics to be a thing.”

          Yupp; Most likely amplifier – hence my support for so called Annihilations of Caste (atleast endogamy)

          1. I think the caste endogamy is already ending (15% or so intermarriage).

            Smart laws for mixed caste kids in the reservation can either help expedite the creation of a unified polity or hamper it.

            I don’t really see an easy solution for inter-religious marriages aside from greater irreligion and tolerance. Seems unlikely given current trend, but I think it might happen at some point.

    2. there are some developments which are interesting:
      1. percentage of good ‘engineering jobs’ in the jobs basket is reducing. these days sharp boys studying other streams are doing well. there is no need to be an engineer to be successful. i see some brahmins moving out of engineering space as they went out of government jobs.
      2. the craze for i i ts are an north/ east indian craze. there were fairly good engineering colleges in south india which predates independence. the expansion of economy has been good for all these colleges.
      3. proliferation of i i ts have taken the sheen out to some extent. recently i had seen one youngster reject n i t rourkela for bms bangalore, with a ‘better’ branch.

      1. “craze for i i ts are an north/ east indian craze”

        Telugu kids who live for 2 full years inside the Vidyamandir/Narayana coaching center building would disagree. If anything, Telugus are the craziest of them all be it IIT or H1B.

    1. What caste did ‘Syed’ Waseem ‘Rizvi’ convert into?

      I would be disappointed for him if its anything less than a Brahmin.

      1. I mean considering the affirmative action debate going on in India, i would be disappointed if he didn’t convert to OBC.

        1. When the foundational idea is wrong and hateful the room for maneuvering is restricted.

          I have been seeing many DHA-Pakistanis mutedly question Jinnah regarding Ilm-ud-din after the Sri Lankan lynching. Similar murmurs happen about Muhammad, the ones who see what is coming have been trying to manufacture the Indus-Man, give it a few generations, Satyamev jayate, truth alone triumphs.

      2. No one cares about caste of converts and I suspect that not many people cared in the past either. Seems like stuff missionaries love quoting from some native nutjob like the current Puri Shankaracharya.

        ###

        Islam embraces base instincts of life better i.e. kill who don’t agree, be an ungrateful asshole to the people/countries who welcome you, make parallel communities, try to overtake territory, take many women, follow the example of the warlike pedo-slaver, most importantly ‘don’t contemplate the basic assumptions’.

        Hinduism tries to make a different kind of sense. It invents too many ideas, but does a philosophizing, janeu wearing wolf hunt better than a maleccha wolf ? If no then what’s the point of all these restrictions? These come handy if you are aggressive and need some mumbo-jumbo to justify your right to other’s property.

        Both have a vigorous demographic domination program nailed down in their basics. Hinduism has proven beyond any doubt that it can survive long dry spells and reinvent/reorganize. I don’t have high hopes for Islam, strict adherence to basics was its strengths and with literacy and reason, it shall be it’s doom.

        But who knows? On t tends to infinity everyone is a Buddhist. On t tends to 100 years everyone might be a Chini.

        Hindus don’t have anything specific to enforce, their internal diversity makes them mistake outsiders as just other shades of Hinduism.

        Muslims don’t have substance, the focus on the basics doesn’t allow Monte Carlo experiments. A lie can never be as satisfying. People read Muhammad and just know he was an ordinary asshole.

        1. @Bhimrao

          Disagree with most of your analysis – but it is correct and wrong at the same time!! Your version of Hinduism is the “Gangetic flavor”. It does not apply to Hindus of non-Gangetic regions. But fits the Gangetic regions to a T.

          It has not achieved anything of substance in over 1500 years. No fight, No reform, No spine, No character, No empire, No HDI – only rituals – that is Gangetic Hinduism.

          Quickest way to get depressed is to listen to a Gangetic Hindu’s version of Hinduism. Unfortunately this version got mainstreamed by the Nehruvian state – with most Hindus across India starting to parrot it mindlessly as it has been spoonfed to them since childhood via state indoctrination.

          1. @Bhimrao

            Did not realise the context of your reply to Qureishi…..sorry! Will park it. Topic for another day!

        2. //No one cares about caste of converts//

          Why not? Since Hinduism is caste specific, how will the converts or their descendants marry? Not choosing a caste, seems to be a bad idea in a caste dominated society, if not for yourself, then certainly for your progeny.

          //Hinduism has proven beyond any doubt that it can survive long dry spells and reinvent/reorganize. I don’t have high hopes for Islam, strict adherence to basics was its strengths and with literacy and reason, it shall be it’s doom.//

          In India which is home of Hinduism, Hinduism lost 1/3rd of its population to Islam, and the ratio may get worse in the next 100 years. Outside India, Hinduism probably loses 90% of its population within 2 generations. The same cannot be easily said of Islam (take a look at 2nd or 3rd generation Muslims in Europe)

          //A lie can never be as satisfying//

          Lies are usually the most satisfying, ignorance is bliss and truth is depressing. Human societies are based upon lies, that are called ‘myths’. Mythology is an important part of one’s tribal and personal identity, gives guidance and direction and helps people through personal and communal crises.

          If lies were not satisfying, people would not have been spending billions of cumulative hours making them up on a grand scale.

          //Islam embraces base instincts of life better i.e. kill who don’t agree, be an ungrateful asshole to the people/countries who welcome you, make parallel communities, try to overtake territory, take many women, follow the example of the warlike pedo-slaver, most importantly ‘don’t contemplate the basic assumptions’.//

          Perhaps true if you look at history, but this can be said of all great empires that operated on the same principals of expansion. So it kinda works. Bitter truth. Digestible lies seem more satisfying.

          1. In personal life religion tries to do something like neurology does in medicine. Most of the times it is difficult to diagnose what is wrong, sometimes it is obvious that the patient has Parkinson or Multiple sclerosis (death of a child, loss of limb, sexual abuse, loneliness, meaning,… for religion), every human has one (neurological or religious) condition or the other.

            What makes religion and neurology alike are the lack of effective interventions or medications. Agar kuch bhi hua, toh laude lag jaate hain, full stop. Koi kuch khaas nai ukhad paayega.

            In this analogy some bits of some religions are like NSF funded, peer-reviewed, proven to work on 10% of the cases pill. This 10% differentiates good myth from homeopathy and voodoo.

            There is some real substance in the pali cannon, in the principal upanishads, in the likes of Nietzsche and Kant, truth not just cheap organizational gimmicks that Muhammad and Quran and by extension Muslims just don’t have. Muslims try to make up for it with derivative infantile stuff but they just don’t have it.

            A grieving man not meditating is hurting no one but himself, a hateful Pakistani sexually abusing a little girl in England is causing harm to himself too. Very very few ever attempt and succeed in investigating the problem first hand, most die like like untreated neurological patients, for the totally rabid ones there is long list of lobotomy surgeons in Israel, PLA, Rajputana Rifles…

            ###

            Politics wala argument baad mein karenge.

            ###
            @Ugra Bhai,
            kya bakchodi hai yeh?
            Laakh dukhon ki ek dawa hai…Gangu Hindu… haay haay!!

          2. As Churchill said: While the Hindu elaborates his argument, the Moslem sharpens his sword.

            The winning philosophy is the one that works in real life. Islamic structure still works to maintain and spread itself .. even in a world dominated today by western neo-liberal thought. Can’t say that for many other religions or ideologies.

            Imagine some upper class British guy belonging to former nobility lamenting and resenting how a tech bro in Silicon Valley in his improper hoody and sweat pants is making more money in a day than he will ever make in his miserable royal life . That is what your appeal to truth sounds like.

      3. Most UP/Bihar (even Maharashtra (I don’t know much about other states)) Muslims know of their caste. Heck, even Pakistani Punjabi Muslims know of their castes!!!

        In this case, Rizvi became “Jitendra Narayan Singh Tyagi”. Tyagis are Brahmin-lite.

  10. Am i the only religious Hindu who actually likes the core tenants of Islam? (Charity, brotherhood, temperance etc)

    I get that many of the more fanatical ones would like me and have weird outgroup hate stuff, but I think the core ideology is salvageable. Maybe there are some immutable reasons why the jurisprudence has developed into such a weirdly strict approach.( I am not sure)

    I don’t think South Asian Muslims are capable of change due to lack of cultural cachet and also hang ups about identity. The Arabs will have to lead the reform, and in some sense already are…

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yFKo21PjpaI

  11. “i had seen one youngster reject n i t rourkela for bms bangalore, with a ‘better’ branch.”

    I think Rourkela vs Bengaluru also plays a large part in this, and you will only see the trend accelerating in the coming years. Four years in Bengaluru means fun, exposure and a decent education. Four years in Rourkela means boredom, isolation and perhaps a slightly better education.

    Creating educational institutions in small towns are ‘transactions of decline’, basically a subsidy to a poor region which lacks overall growth prospects. American universities like Penn State are facing this as well.

    1. Couldn’t agree more.
      Have personally rejected NIT in a medium sized city to choose average engineering college in a metropolis.
      And I know many more friends who have done that.
      One thing we all had common was elite private schooling up to Year 12.

  12. “Hinduism lost 1/3rd of its population to Islam”

    I dont think the pastoral castes of the middle and lower Indus valley, and animist populations of the Bengal marshes were very Hindu to begin with.

    I think Islam’s biggest success in India was the Kashmir valley, where all the upper castes except Brahmins converted (many Brahmins did too). In many ways, Kashmir is the most Muslim part of the subcontinent.

    Another success were the Rajput clans of the Indus valley (Soomro, Samma’s etc).

    1. But why disparage the lower Hindu castes and the Maleech in North West and the East? It’s almost as if you are saying that upper caste converts were more valuable than lower caste ones or the inhabitants of the lesser Hindu regions.

      Also, is it survivorship bias that you say those in the NW and the East were less Hindus? I know about Sauravs theories about core Hindi regions and lesser ones and I agree with that since Hinduism is more a geographic relgion than an ideological one.

      1. My comment was in the context of conversion to Islam. The liminal presence of Indus pastoral castes in the Hindu world is a well attested historical fact. These regions were barely populated (especially compared to the Gangetic plain) for most of history any ways. If they had encountered Christianity first, they would have converted to that religion.

        Regarding, the relative strengths of Hinduism and Islam. Despite caste endogamy, Hinduism is a far, far stronger binding force in its core region than Islam is.

        Being both Muslim (and Arab) doesnt generate enough mutual reciprocation for Saudis and Yemenis to form a cohesive political unit. 400,000 Yemenis have died in a Saudi and Iran stoked civil war in the last six years alone. Why such disdain for fellow Muslim lives ? Perhaps, this explains Pakistani willingness to collateral 2 million Afghan Muslims in its absurd quest for parity with India.

        Its like Vaishnav and Shakta Oriyas fighting a civil war egged on by UP and Bengal. A laughable scenario in the Hindu world is reality in core Muslim lands.

      2. “Despite caste endogamy, Hinduism is a far, far stronger binding force in its core region than Islam is.”

        Just my 2 cents. We can argue, both for and against, about binding strength of this respective religion. Though what Qureshi says is true abt 1/3rd ‘Hindus’ converting to Islam, the conversion happened on the march lands, and not the core region. And we know what happened when Islam did rule over the core region. Roughly 10 percent converted over 800 odd years. Very less output.

        But its not to pooh pooh Islam binding power, and the Yemeni/Arab example is not accurate. In its core region, Islam has extinguished everything else and made the region synonymous with Islam. If that’s not a testament to its binding power, dont know what is. Yeah they might kill each other, but thats no crusade.

        1. There were significant (~20%) non-Muslim minorities in major Middle Eastern countries like Egypt and Syria. They were the elites and highly influential. Islam seems to excel at converting pastoral communities, but struggles with river plains elites.

          1. Lets not force-fit any theory. Islam had success both with Iranian elites as well as Indus elite.

          2. “Lets not force-fit any theory. Islam had success both with Iranian elites as well as Indus elite.”

            Didn’t Islam drive off the Indus elite?
            Don’t think most converted. Most large cities in Pakistan were Hindu+Sikh majority on the eve of partition.

          3. Well in 1947, Lahore was Muslim majority (60% Muslim). So was Rawalpindi. So was Karachi (although barely at 48% Muslim vs 46% Hindu). Hyderabad seems to be the only major city with a Hindu Majority. It can be argued that urban Sindh was dominated by Hindus, but the real elite was the feudal landowning class in Sindh, and they were all Muslims.

            As for the Gangetic plains, most of your Muslim Ashraf class would be upper caste converts taking on Islamic religion and also retaining the Indian caste differences by claiming foreign ancestry. Does that similarity not show in the genetic data?

          4. Quereshi is right abt Pakistan areas. Both the elite and subaltern converted, rather than ‘being driven off’. One can argue that comparably more subaltern converted than elite (who remained Hindu and sikh) , but prior to Ranjit Singh, both Punjab and Sindh were ruled by homegrown muslim elites.

            In the Gangetic plain, there is a disproportionate division b/w Ashrafs and non Ashrafs, especially after partition, the overwhelming numbers is that of non Ashrafs. Thats the reason non Ashraf try to claim foreign ancestry, since that’s the second best bet to escape caste. So fake Pathans are dime a dozen

          5. “Did the selective settlement of the canal colonies and high fertility have the effect of making West Punjab much more demographically Muslim than the east?”

            This is my perception as well. We do not have granular enough data. But in the 100-200 years preceding independence, Punjab’s population grew at twice the rate of UP.

            We know that Hindus were largely urban and had lower fertility rates. So that would explain the Hindu population decline overall.

            My contention was only specifically about the elites – that not a lot of them converted. Most lower status converts became elites or the old elites were driven off.

            Not saying there weren’t people in all categories. Just that broadly, speaking differential birth rates and social mobility are better explanations than conversion.

        2. Did the selective settlement of the canal colonies and high fertility have the effect of making West Punjab much more demographically Muslim than the east? Suggesting we don’t need to search too far back historically to understand religious composition changes.

  13. Lol not sure who hated Hindus more: Churchill, Nixon, or Jinnah. The first certainly denigrated them the most.

    And birth rates are approaching replacement for Muslim women in India too.

    https://www.pewforum.org/2021/09/21/religious-composition-of-india/

    Largest proportional decline is in Muslim birth rate. The gap will close looking at trends. Regardless, who cares. Looking at Indian religious survey, Indian Muslims have quite dharmisized views. They too are largely assimilated. The issue is the vocal and aggressive radical islamist minority and the brainwashed penumbra of fake moderates who tacitly support them.

  14. Waseem Rizvi was a South Asian Shia. I don’t really know why but they seem to be among the more prominent members of the ex-Muslim movement such as Sarah Haider and Ali Amjad Rizvi. There was quite a lot of anti-Shia violence in Pakistan when I was growing up there which could perhaps drive some to quit the religion entirely out of disgust. Also Iran the premier Shia nation is a stagnating dictatorship everyone with a brain is trying to leave. I don’t know if similar trends of Sunni oppression and disenchantment with Shia “nationalism” are present in India.

  15. Jay sys
    For the guy who said India fostered Tamil nationalism, that is unfair. India did not ask Sirimavo and the following Sinhala Presidents/PM’s to treat Tamil as second grade citizens and disenfranchise a large set of population.

    Apparently Jay does not have much English comprehension. What I sbarrkum (Sereno Anukkranayagam Barr-Kumarakulasinghe) said was
    India and Indira Gandhi trained and fostered the LTTE.

    And Jay who I am sure is a Jaffna Tamil, a little bit of history for you.

    SJV Chelvnayagam (Samuel James Veluppillai born in Malaysia) the guy who started all this separatist nonsense got to that point because he married my fathers cousin Emily Barr-Kumarakulasinghe. Her father the Maniagar was the least educated and racist and casteist and the most power hungry of four brothers. (The eldest of the brothers was married to an American Missionary, Kitty Wood).

    The Maniagars two sons were not power hungry or separatist. One son, CS Barr-Kum was the lawyer who defended Vimala Wijewardane in the coup.

    And a final little question our family gets asked often. How do we have a name ending in “singhe” and not “singham” as for most Tamils.

    Thats because our ancestral name is Cinkai Aryan, i.e.Arya Singhe and the claim is direct descent from Sinhabahu (father Vijaya) thru Magha of Kalinga who destroyed Sri Lanka

    Below a link to my Grandfathers eldest brother in Roper Lethbridge Golden Book of India and Ceylon

    https://imgur.com/gallery/9TtZSl2

    1. [i]Apparently Jay does not have much English comprehension. What I sbarrkum (Sereno Anukkranayagam Barr-Kumarakulasinghe) said was
      India and Indira Gandhi trained and fostered the LTTE.[/i]

      I’m not sure who lacks English comprehension here; Here is what you said,

      [i]Apparently Mr. Fragmented Ideas has no idea of India’s fostering of three decades of civil war in Sri Lanka. India and Indira Gandhi trained and fostered the LTTE. [/i]
      India did not start the civil war, it was Srilanka’s and Singhala politicians apathy towards the Tamil minorities that did them in. India did not make them stateless, your PM did. India just capitalized on it, nothing personal, just like how you helped Pakistan. To spite India, the current lot went to China and look what they have brought upon them. As they say, inguru deela miris gatha wagei.

      [i]And Jay who I am sure is a Jaffna Tamil, a little bit of history for you. [/i]
      Guy, you have no clue to who you are speaking to. I don’t have any love for the so called educated and cultured north. In fact both the North and Capital region Tamils did not help the the Eastern and central Tamils when they were in need. While I don’t rejoice the fall of Jaffna and LTTE, I do not cry for them either.

      [i]Thats because our ancestral name is Cinkai Aryan, i.e.Arya Singhe and the claim is direct descent from Sinhabahu (father Vijaya) thru Magha of Kalinga who destroyed Sri Lanka. Below a link to my Grandfathers eldest brother in Roper Lethbridge Golden Book of India and Ceylon[/i]
      Seriously, not impressed with your name dropping.
      I will end with this,
      Melirundhum melallaar melallar keezhirundhum
      Keezhallaar keezhal lavar.

    2. Apparently Jay does not have much English comprehension. What I sbarrkum (Sereno Anukkranayagam Barr-Kumarakulasinghe) said was
      India and Indira Gandhi trained and fostered the LTTE.

      I’m not sure who lacks English comprehension here;
      Here is what you said,
      Apparently Mr. Fragmented Ideas has no idea of India’s fostering of three decades of civil war in Sri Lanka. India and Indira Gandhi trained and fostered the LTTE.
      India did not start the civil war, it was Srilanka’s and Singhala politicians apathy towards the Tamil minorities that did them in. India did not make them stateless, your PM did. India just capitalized on it, nothing personal, just like how you helped Pakistan. To spite India, the current lot went to China and look what they have brought upon them. As they say, inguru deela miris gatha wagei.

      And Jay who I am sure is a Jaffna Tamil, a little bit of history for you.
      Guy, you have no clue to who you are speaking to. I don’t have any love for the so called educated and cultured north. In fact both the North and Capital region Tamils did not help the the Eastern and central Tamils when they were in need. While I don’t rejoice the fall of Jaffna and LTTE, I do not cry for them either.

      Thats because our ancestral name is Cinkai Aryan, i.e.Arya Singhe and the claim is direct descent from Sinhabahu (father Vijaya) thru Magha of Kalinga who destroyed Sri Lanka. Below a link to my Grandfathers eldest brother in Roper Lethbridge Golden Book of India and Ceylon
      Seriously, not impressed with your name dropping.
      I will end with this,
      Melirundhum melallaar melallar keezhirundhum
      Keezhallaar keezhal lavar.

  16. Quereshi’s points about Islam are somewhat true, but not totally. Here in Europe, I have seen many moslems in 2nd and 3rd gen being “MINO” (moslems in name only). It’s not unsual to see daughters with hijabi moms but wearing nothing on their heads themselves, often in tight jeans and even shorts during the summer. We’re talking late teens, early 20s.

    It’s true that Hindus assimilate faster, but that is largely likely in *part* due to socio-economic factors. Hindus in the West tend to be an elite crowd, and thus are more westernised to begin with. Iranians are typical moslem elites who also assimilate very fast. So this may have to do with class as much as it does with religion.

    You could even take Jews, which are very ethnocentric in their homeland, but something like >70% of American secular Jews intermarry with Gentiles. The numbers for the orthodox are tiny, but their community is just 10% of the US community anyway. Like Judaism, Hinduism is a rooted religion that only really works in a specific place, with its ballast in history.

    As a non-Hindu, I view it as a “religion for a people”. Islam is different, much akin to Christianity, with global ambitions. So the real comparison should be Islam vs Christianity, and that’s a fight that Christianity is winning. It’s winning in Africa and even in China(!).

    Final point. Quantity may be a quality of itself, as Stalin pointed out, but it is not the only one that matters. Much of the moslem world is in tatters. Lebanon is in chaos. Libya is destroyed. Turkey is collapsing. Pakistan is extremely frail. The only moslem-majority country that is a success without relying mostly on oil/gas is arguably Malaysia. But South-East Asia is the most moderate place in the ummah, with the exception of the Balkans, and Malaysia still has ~30% non-moslems. In its economic capital, it’s closer to half non-moslems. So I am not sure how good an example it is.

    Does this matter? For the poor and downtrodden, maybe not. But many of them are illiterate. People are drawn to success. The most useful converts are those who are elites, since they can affect a much greater number due to superior talent, resources, influence etc. And the relative attraction of Islam is not great, given that I see very, very few ethnic Europeans converting here but far more moslems leaving the faith in all but name. And increasingly even officially.

    These patterns may not reflect in the world stats just yet, because most additions are made in the poorest countries. But they can be seen in the intermediate countries, such as North Africa. As warlock showed, young arabs are leaving Islam in much greater numbers than previous generations. For countries like Pakistan, it’s a bit different. Islam becomes an ethnic signifier of sorts. If not for that, what was even the point of the country? It’d just be another Bihar or UP.

    1. Secularism is the prevailing trend of the times. It is why Will Durant said Charles Darwin was the most influential man in recent history as the theory of evolution demolished belief in a divine origin. Even the US which was far more religious than most of Europe till recently has unprecedentedly high numbers of younger cohorts with no religious affiliation.

      I doubt China would become significantly Christian, missionaries have been trying since the 19thc without much to show for it. Africa is not much of a win.

      Islamic countries are in much better shape than they were compared to the 19th and 20th centuries when they were largely colonised, conquered and behind the Iron Curtain. There have never been as many Muslims in the world as there are presently which is an achievement in itself. They are not driving BMWs or living in mansions but neither are they starving, destitute and eking out an existence.

    1. It was pretty popular in Europe and the Ottoman empire when man-boy sexual relations were considered normal. It started dying out in Europe in the 18thc and then in the Ottoman empire in the mid 19thc. The history of it has been forgotten there while no one has told the Afghans it is no longer in fashion.

    1. Modi is a coward on this issue. This will be a great stain on the republic’s economic history

    1. Seeing that Pakistanis have become more and more conservative over the years in front of my eyes, and Whatsapp, Facebook and Youtube televangelists make more money in a day than these tattoo studios will make in the next 10 years, I would bet it’s the Ummah gang.


  17. “The winning philosophy is the one that works in real life. Islamic structure still works to maintain and spread itself .. even in a world dominated today by western neo-liberal thought. Can’t say that for many other religions or ideologies.”

    the point is – islamic philosophy/model/modus-operandi is NOT winning. muslims are fond of saying that isalm is the fastest growing religion in the world. but their higher growth is not translating into higher share of earth’s resources. sure, the nigerians and mauritanians are breeding like rabbits, but they are not gaining more land.

    even with their higher birth rate, palestinians are STILL losing land to jews. jews are actively dispossessing them of their homes and orchards and whatever meager possessions they are left with. and muslims have lost an entire country in xinjiang. (heck, they are even losing their beards and skull-caps in xinjiang). in their core hearland, the west topples their regimes at will (iraq, libya) and pumps away their oil. if this is what winning looks like…

    1. The ‘world’s resources’ are in human capital, not in land or oil (although these help). Given where the Islamic world was 100 years ago (colonized by the west), the tables are steadily turning today and 100 years from now, you may see a different demographic in Western Europe. This is the type of societal resilience I am talking about, not measured by GDP$per cap figures. The Chinese can take away Xinjiang and resettle the Han there, to be frank, they are facing a population crisis themselves and won’t be able to sustain their domination for more than the end of this century.

      1. Given where the Islamic world was 100 years ago (colonized by the west), the tables are steadily turning today and 100 years from now, you may see a different demographic in Western Europe.

        Colonisation happened to all parts of the world: Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Islamic. Saying you were colonised 100 years ago means nothing.

        As for Western Europe, I have already noted that I see extremely few ethnic European converts where I live whereas I see a huge amount of MINOs (Moslem In Name Only) and increasingly even outright agnostics. If this takeover was supposed to happen, we would see the early signs already. What we’re seeing is the reverse: moslems losing their faith.

        You yourself live in Canada, and that is the ultimate proof of Islam’s failure. Canada is not moslem and won’t be in our lifetimes or beyond. Yet you moved there because no moslem country was good enough. So your own words are completely at odds with your words, which is the kind of hilarious hypocrisy that I see so often with moslems.

        It reminds me of Turkish Erdogan supporters in Europe. They always praise him but none of them want to live in the country he rules. This kind of pathetic diaspora LARPing is just a form of cope for people who fled their homelands and will not see their grandchildren have a strong identity.

        1. @principia

          I think you just assumed that I moved to Canada out of my own will (I actually did not want to move, and was brought here as a 16 year old). However that is besides the point though:

          There is absolutely no disconnect between living in a Canada/US/Western country and being Muslim. Islamically, there is no issue living anywhere in the world as long as the law of the land does not impede in practicing the core tenets of Islam itself. I think you may not understand it being Hindu since Hinduism is tied to geography, but Islam is mostly an ideological religion, not a geographic religion and does not require you to continue ties with the homeland, where ever that may be.

          I also think you overestimate the ability of Western Europe to absorb its immigrants/refugees and make them into the mould of their own native citizens. They have failed miserably, not with Indians, not with Chinese but with absorbing their Muslim populations. And this is the basis on which I claimed that that the next 100 years, W. European identity is going to change. The Islamic social fabric is still working as intended.

      2. see, islam is a major world religion, so it is a safe bet that 100 years from now it will still be around, as will be other major religions like christianity, buddhism and hinduism. but it is ridiculous to imagine that 100 years from now it will dominate the world like the west/christianity did a century ago.

        west’s dominance was rooted in its command of superior technology far, far above the rest of world. it was their taming of oceans with their ships, followed by the industrial revolution that they came to dominate the world. they completely peopled afresh 3 whole continents (N and S america, australia). do you think islamic societies can achieve such a feat in 100 years or 500 years? do they have technological wherewithal to even attempt such a feat?

        merely high birth rates are not sufficient. islamic societies have not even achieved parity in technology with the west, let alone surpassing them.

        demographic dividend is a much misunderstood concept. you need a knowledge based economy and an industrial base to reap the rewards of demographic dividend. without an industrial economy you will just millions of illiterate masses, forever mired in strife.

        1. @scorpion,

          I think you also overrate the West. At this point, the west is only the US. The rest of the countries have declined or are just piggybacking off the US juggernaut. EU is slated to fail as they are disunited as ever, with increasingly nanny states requiring massive immigration to keep their economies afloat. Canada is a resource based economy and free trade with the US basically destroyed any economic independence it had. US is the only one innovating in tech, and I would say even they are now falling behind in many sectors against China.
          All these countries are below replacement rate in births, while their economic systems will fail when demographic growth is stagnant, no matter how highly skilled the population is, eventually they will need to replace themselves which they are not doing so. While we don’t know what is going to happen in the next decade let alone next 100 years, it’s interesting to extrapolate current events to predict the future. A good book I read couple of years back ”the next 100 years” by George Friedman where he has highlighted that immigration is going to extremely valuable to the West and they will soon start actually competing for immigrants to sustain their stagnant economies. Which countries do you think they will take immigrants from? The ones that actually have a favorable demographic are the Islamic ones. This may not be beneficial for countries that are Islamic, but it will unquestionably start to change the character of the host countries to a more Islamic flavor.

        2. Scorpion Eater

          Its the overpopulated barbarians who prevail on avg.

          Europe was overpopulated and living in dirt poor conditions. They expanded and sent their poor and criminals to the New World and Australia.

          On a much smaller scale, The Taliban in flip flops and small arms prevailed over the far technology advanced US.

          1. Qureishi and sbarrkum

            both of you are making the mistake that falling birth rates will make western countries welcome immigrants. there is no guarantee this is the route they will go.

            at some point of time they may decide that the associated risk of terrorism and social discord is not worth it, and shut the door on immigrants. they may willingly chose to have a smaller population and smaller economy.

            every country has their immigrant loving liberals and immigrant-hating hardliners. what makes you think that hardliners will not be the ones making the laws in the future.

            birth rates of many european countries are falling for many decades now. that has not made them open the flood gates for immigration. at best they take in immigrants in a very measured way. it’s a fantasy to imagine that europe and america will “compete” for muslim immigrants any time in the future.

          2. @Scorpion

            Immigration is already happening, whether the host countries like it or not. Places in EU that are anti migrant are places in Europe with some of the worst economic statistics on the continent, and a young population that has migrated elsewhere looking for greener pastures. At this point, the only countries in Europe that matter economically are Germany, France and UK, maybe Sweden and Poland and all of these (with the exception of Poland) now have a very fast growing Islamic population.

            Canada for example welcomes more than 1% of its population every year as immigrants. Most major Canadian cities are now Majority foreign born, and the gravy train has not stopping anytime soon. Australia is similar. The US is also not going to be stopping immigration anytime soon (Trump tried, but even his plan had a huge number of immigrants coming in).
            It’s very obvious why this is happening, the birth rates in all these countries have dropped way below replacement and the elite in these countries are concerned about economic growth which will not only stall but result in a collapse that will affect them directly. They want to continue the status quo and the lower classes in their countries are not going to protest as long as they are able to maintain a basic standard of living.. so UBI, and distractions like VR and metaverse are now coming soon.

            The war on terror is played out and it’s so 2000’s. US is concentrating on China now, so Islamic extremism is not going to be in the mainstream western news from now on, barring some blackswan event. You will see more sentiment against Chinese immigrants than you will against Muslim ones from now on.

          3. American S Asian Muslims assimilate quite well. Living in the UK for a bit, case was not true there. Some of the British Pakistani ghettos were a site to see. Also, birth rates are falling among Muslims in many places too. As the world gets richer and women are empowered, birth rates are falling everywhere. There are exceptions like UK Miripuris but that’s not the common story. Religion in general will be way less of a thing in the future.

    1. Glad to know that Dravidians are being more Indian, considering their past I wouldn’t best on it though. On ex service men, one of largest contingent is from Punjab. So events related to Khalistan didn’t happen, I guess.

      Don’t get what’s the reason of u posting the Hindu article though. Forget consecration , the priest of vaishnodevi happens to be a tam Brahm or such. Doesn’t amount for much, TBH.

  18. few observations:
    i) never knew there were christians in haryana. rachel godinho almost sounds like a cousin of ronaldinho!!!. the wedding happened as per hindu rituals. one is tempted to say that it wouls have been very ‘ secular’ if it was a church wedding, but the yadavs would have rejected it.
    ii) IUML attacks Kerala minister’s marriage to CM Pinarayi Vijayan’s daughter, calls it ‘adultery’. hope they will not kill them.https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/thiruvananthapuram/iuml-attacks-kerala-ministers-marriage-to-cm-pinarayi-vijayans-daughter-calls-it-adultery-7666404/
    iii) katarina kaif married as per hindu rites. is she a muslim?

    1. 1. I think it was important for Tejaswi to perform the Hindu rituals.
      RJD already has the tag of a pro – muslim party, Tejaswi couldn’t take a chance of his makeover being crashed. Wont rule out a private Christian ceremony (whose pics will be leaked by BJP at the importunate time 😛 )

      2. Interfaith wedding in Mallu-land is dime a dozen. Not a big deal.

      3. I think she is estranged from her father, and if there is, there could be a Christian ceremony. Also while she was dating Bhai, i saw her once doing Murti Visarjan in Mumbai. So mostly not that religious.

      1. If he doesn’t get killed, you will see more Kerala Muslims openly leaving the religion. Fear of getting your head chopped off is the biggest factor in strong asabiya. Regardless, the fact that he not only openly left Islam but also de facto became a Hindu, means that Islam is not as powerful in the region as it used to be.

  19. https://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/fa-hien-in-land-of-buddha-7668321/

    “The purpose of Fa-Hien’s travels to the Buddha’s lands was to take with him the Vinaya-Pitika — the code for good governance. That is why his travelogue became known as “A Record of Buddhistic Kingdoms”, translated from old Chinese to modern English by Scotsman James Legge in 1886.

    Legge identifies the existing religious beliefs at the time of translation, as Christianity, Confucianism, Brahmanism, Mohammedanism and Taoism. Notably, there is no mention of Hinduism because there didn’t exist a faith as such.”

    Suraj Yengde ~ Prof at Harvard.

    ☝️ Islam before the Prophet. India’s best mind at work.

    1. I think this is a poor sequence of paragraphs. *At the time of translation* suggests legge’s thoughts in 1886, but then yengde goes straight into an observation of fa-hien about brahmins.

  20. interesting to see daughters of gen. rawat perform his last rites. vajapayee’s daughter also performed his last rites. i had seen a photo of renuka chaudary doing the same. this is a natural corollary of not having or going for a male child after one or two girl children. no issues.
    south india which imitates north india in dress (salwar kameez), weddings, ( big 5 day bashes) ,food ( “north indian and chineese” is the only menu available in many hotels of bangalore at nights) will also take this tradition, which will only strengthen hinduism.

    1. I just don’t buy it. Most shamshans are no places for women. There are hardly any places to shit, no place to take a leak for miles on the river bank. Plus you don’t eat for the whole day and bath in the open river. Even ten Indian women would not be able to carry the arthi for five foot steps, the man who does antyesthi remains untouchable for 14 days and mourns, change from man to woman will bring change to these things too. Most importantly antyesthi is not an emotion filled or meaning giving samskar. There is just too much going on, no time to do empty philosophizing. I know within a generation daughter doing it in a gas/electric burner in the city would become common but having been to many dah samskars, I would rather see it being done like it has always been done, with the terahawin, Garuda purana and brahmin feeding, the whole drama is well worth it.

      1. well things are slightly different in south india. most smashans are not on river banks, although these are not very clean and agreeable spaces. they can be improved.
        one problem in the modern nuclear families is that eligible and willing male non family members are reducing, thus opening this space to the girls.

    2. “ south india which imitates north india “

      In everything bruh. Apart from things u have mentioned as well. 😉

  21. “i like geography, i like history, i like ethnography, all groups. all ppl. all places.

    the last few years cultural winds have changed and friends in academia etc. have been warning me to not be too interested.

    never will stop. sorry. put me in the cage. all that will stop me” – razib

    I dont do this often, infact never, But I salute you razib for this. In many ways he is the first brown man who explores history of humanity under the sun. We need that in India.

  22. bit sad to see that modi trimmed his beard. hopefully he will not trim it further before u p elections.

  23. I would have guessed that modi would go after mathura”s temple after ayodhya. It was a safer bet, low hanging fruit. Krishna is closer to Gujjus. Some yadavs already vote Bjp. Would have sounded death knell to two of his biggest opponents in UP and Bihar. Everything added up.

    But seems he went for shiva. Don’t know how much impact it will be. Shiva disciples are mostly in south ( weak Hindu region) or in hilly states ( small political power). Plus a very delicate diety. It can give u moksha, but as well burn you.

    1. @saurav,
      Curious if Kashi is patronized just by shaivites from south and hill states or locals from up/bihar also visit?
      Marathas were also ardent Shaivas during the medieval times. Although they still follow kuldevatas who are considered to be avatars of Shiva, I feel they are ambivalent about shiva since 20th century.

      1. There is general ambivalence towards Shiva in India overall, apart from pockets in N-India ( hilly states, Benaras, Kawad yatra etc). There is far more devotion for Shiva in the South, then there in the North.

        I guess it has to do with Shiva worship in general, at least in the North. They are fanatic worshippers who spook other devotees. Plus the whole idea of either worshipping Shiva in a proper way or suffer his wrath.

        1. Interesting… at least in my experience, Shaiva temples in MH, KA are pretty minimal in terms of rituals. Basically you need to be bathed and bare upper body for men.
          It is the Vaishnava temples in south who have a more punctilious image. Maybe it is got to do with the demographics. Shaiva temples in south are patronized mainly by OBCs whereas Vaishnava temples are curious mix of high + low. So could be the tiny elite thought that if rules are not enforced then it will be free for all.

          1. That’s largely true for north as well.

            OBC ~ shiva. UCs ~ Vishnu.

            Doesn’t take away from the part that shiva worship is still seen as arduous. Kanwar yatra. Trek to hilly temples. Can’t fuck around if u hold rudraksh etc

            Vishnu temples are seen more as plug and play. Worship and go home.

    2. Modi paraphrased Subramanya Bharati (Tamil couplet) at Kashi yesterday.

      Shiva is “THE” Imperial Religion in the South. Strong blood memory of kings and conquerors. The son has even more legions of worshippers – Skanda/Murugan/Kartikeya.

      In general, after the 4.2 kya aridification event in the North, Indra fell out of favour within the Vedic Pantheon. It is quite possible that after centuries of weak/supine Gangetic Hindu performance, their gods will fall out of favour.

      Also Modi at Kashi yesterday – Whenever a Aurangzeb comes, a Shivaji rises!

  24. The Indian press has ignored the plight of Julian Assange. The silence of the Indian left on the plight of Julian Assange is puzzling.

    From Paul Craig Roberts:

    I Don’t Want to Hear Any More About the “Free World.” There’s Not One.
    The corrupt UK High Court is nothing but an extension of the corrupt US Department of Justice (sic) and has done its duty to serve as Washington’s agent. https://www.rt.com/uk/542758-assange-extradition-appeal-granted/

    The charges against Julian Assange make no sense. Assange is not an American citizen, but the charges against him assume that he is a US citizen in the pay of a foreign government. He is charged with spying on the US. Other countries spy on us, as does our own government and commercial firms, just as the US spies on other countries and commercial firms, but no one is arrested for doing so unless it is a citizen of the country spying in the pay of a foreign government. There is no evidence whatsoever that Assange was doing that.

    Assange is an independent person practicing legitimate journalism. He published leaked documents, exactly as did the New York Times when the newspaper published the Pentagon Papers leaked by Daniel Ellsberg, a US citizen with top secret clearances. Unlike Ellsberg, Assange was not the leaker. Assange was the publisher like the New York Times. The US government’s effort to punish Ellsberg and the NY Times failed in the courts. Ellsberg was awarded the Olof Palme Prize for “profound humanism and moral courage.”

    But times have changed. In Ellsberg’s time, the US government still had enough standing to survive the deception revealed by the Pentagon Papers. But by the time of Assange, the crimes and misdeeds of the US government had hollowed out Washington’s reputation. The decision was made to make an example of Assange in order to prevent journalists from ever again revealing Washington’s war crimes and deceptions of the American people and US allies.

    Rafael Correa, the former president of Ecuador, who was able to remove Assange from Washington’s reach for several years, said that Washington’s aim in its illegal an unconstitutional prosecution of Assange is to “scare others” and shut down real journalism. Correa stated the facts as they are: “If Assange would have exposed the secrets of China, Russia or left-wing Latin American governments, including my government, he would have been praised by the international press, honored by US Congress and the British parliament. But because his actions were against the interests of the US, the hegemonic country, he was labeled a criminal.” https://www.rt.com/news/542890-rafael-correa-assange-case/
    American journalism is already shut down. All that print, TV, and PBS journalism delivers is official narratives. American journalism serves as a Ministry of Propaganda and as nothing else. It is no longer possible in the “Free West” to practice journalism.

    This fact is obvious from journalism’s treatment of Assange. Real journalism is dependent on the First Amendment. Without it, there is no journalism. Assange’s persecution signifies the death of the First Amendment. Yet American journalists have served as Washington’s mob squad and have done Washington’s dirty work for a decade beating up Assange with endless lies.

    To see the encroaching totalitarianism in the Western World, observe that in the 1970s the case against Ellsberg was thrown out of court, but in the 21st century with a case so weak as to be nonexistent, Washington has managed to corrupt the British High Court to turn over Assange to Washington, not for legal reasons, but for vengeance. This is persecution, not legitimate prosecution. Add to this Australian concentration camps for citizen suspected of having been exposed to Covid, imprisonment of unvaccinated citizens in Austria and Germany, job- and GDP-destroying lockdowns, restrictions on freedom of association and freedom of movement, silencing of scientific experts who disprove the official false Covid narrative. You can add to this list.

    People in the “Free West” are so insouciant that most have accepted the presstitutes’ portrayal of Assange as a Russian spy. People are too insouciant to recognize that even if the lie were true, it is not grounds for prosecution as Assange is not an American citizen or legal resident.

    Rafael Correa is correct. Washington is determined, even at the cost of lawlessness, to make an example of Assange and thereby guarantee that the only permissible “journalism” is propaganda in behalf of Washington’s narratives. This is the same complete control over explanations as exists in George Orwell’s dystopian novel, 1984.

    1984 arrived 37 years later, but it is here now.

    1. I’m glad you raise the issue, Roy. Assange’s fate is the biggest scandal of the century in terms of its implications for freedom of speech. The silence from the left has been shocking, yet not unexpected. Much of the Western left is pro-authority, pro-CIA and pro-FBI these days. Indian left often takes its cues from the Western left.

      The few voices who dare speak up like Glenn Greenwald are demonised these days and attacked as ‘fascists’. The moral bankruptcy of the left reaches new lows every single day.

  25. https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/12/14/pakistan-gwadar-port-protests-china-belt-and-road-cpec/

    “For starters, Pakistan assumed that Gwadar was absolutely vital to Chinese interests, especially in helping Beijing overcome its reliance on energy imported via the Malacca Strait. But as a 2020 U.S. Naval War College study makes clear, Chinese analysts generally see a Pakistan-based overland energy pipeline to Xinjiang as economically unviable. And there is even some pushback in China’s strategic community on whether it really faces a “Malacca dilemma.””

    Just like India realized with Chabahar, Pakistan will realize the folly of Gwadar as well.

    1. India had a meeting on that port just a few days ago, so it’s still keeping the project alive.

      As for Pakistan, it’s not clear to me they are granting Beijing any favours here. If anything, Pakistan is a burden on whoever is their current sponsor, a fact that China has now belatedly discovered. America is not quick to give any funds after having seen the country for what it is: a useless moneypit without end.

  26. Cabinet clears Rs 76,000-crore incentive scheme for semiconductors

    I’m generally against capital-intensive but labour-scarce investments for poor countries, but this is an exception to the rule. Semiconductors have national security implications and rise in importance by the year. In many ways, they are to the 21st century what steel was to WWI and WWII. It’s simply not something any serious country (or region, in the case of the EU) can bypass.

    1. I will wait till the first chip <=7nm rolls out from a fab in India. It is not due to lack of effort on post of GOI.

  27. Chinese Ambassador visits Northern Province. Ambassador Qi Zhenhong visited the Nallur Kadaswamy temple wearing a white dhoti (called Vetti) but without an upper garment and footwear. He was welcomed by the temple management and the Brahmin priests in the traditional Tamil Hindu way.
    see video. You wont see western diplomats doing that).

    They promptly express disapproval of Chinese investments in the North. Tamil politicians and the media wrote against a Chinese-Sri Lankan joint venture to grow sea cucumbers in Jaffna for export to China.
    Whats new Sumanthiran and his ilk still hoping for the “pie in the sky while the people in North are deprived of economic development and investment

  28. Any comments on the new Design Linked Incentive scheme for semiconductor manufacturing that the government just announced?

    We are probably 3 decades too late. Would be interesting to see how it turns out.

    $10 billion is a huge amount. We are never going to get total bang for the bucks but even if we can develop some capacity that’d be good.

    On another note, Ashwini Vaishnaw seems like an impressive chap.

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