Brown Pundits Podcast 100: The origin of Indo-Europeans and Indians
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sceptic
6 months ago
Absolute tour-de-force from Razib, very few can marshal the archaeological and genetic analysis with such depth and clarity.
I do think in the future some wrinkles will be added. I am partial to Parpola’s multiple migration theory, with non-Vedic Indo Aryans arriving first and probably mingling with late IVC people, and Vedic Aryans arriving later, probably due to Iranian pressure. But its still just a speculation.
Regarding the current paper, I wonder if the Southern Arc de-emphasises the “lactase-persistence” theory of Yamnaya expansion.
lactase persistence expansion came later. even in europe it didn’t really take off until 2000 years ago
Mohan
6 months ago
Razib didn’t get a chance to speak on it, but I wonder whether he believes any of the languages spoken in the northern IVC, prior to the arrival of Indo-Iranians, may have been related to Indo-Anatolian? Or did northern IVC speak a language isolate that is now dead?
Razib’s said a few times (on different podcasts) that he believes at least some of the northern IVC languages were related to Burushaski (now a language isolate and spoken only in Gilgit-Balitistan or thereabouts.)
Thank you. Yes I’ve heard him say that and it makes sense. I’m just pondering the possibility that some of the northern IVC languages may be related to Indo Anatolian and wanted to know his thoughts on it.
This podcast episode and the one about srilanka genetics are promising but become almost unwatchable due to the insufferable and useless interruptions of Razib’s cohost. Guy needs to stfu.
Thank you. I’m glad I’m not the only one who found that. I came here just to say what you’ve said.
DaThang
6 months ago
“…the main thing that is different between them and Yamnaya is the Yamnaya have ancestry from the indigenous foragers of the Dnieper river valley, who are basically a mix … majority western hunter gatherer with a minority eastern hunter gatherer ancestry.”
By Dnieper river valley, are you referring to Ukraine_N? If so, they are more EHG than WHG:
Although you can say that Ukraine_N and Ukraine_Mesolithic are 40% to 50% ANE, so Ukraine_N would be mostly WHG if you decompose EHG into ANE + WHG. However that would be anachronistic because EHG certainly predates all known Ukraine_N and Ukraine_Mesolithic samples.
Adding Anatolia_N and CHG to the models doesn’t change much, and just for an extra check, there isn’t any Tyumen either (not relevant to what you said, but I did this to cover some extra ground anyway for clarification, they are ~95% EHG + WHG):
From what I know, Sintashta ancestry among Brahmin subgroups peaks with Gujarati Nagar Brahmins for whatever reason. More than Punjabi Brahmins, Kashmiri Brahmins/Pundits, Rajasthani Brahmins and UP Brahmins. Non-Nagar Brahmins of Gujarat however have less Sintashta than the aforementioned groups.
As mentioned in the podcast, Rors have more Sintashta than Brahmins and they do not have Maratha ancestry. My guess is that they may have been employed as soldiers by Marathas at some point, and so the identity of their employers stuck with them or something.
I don’t think the Eastern Iranians had any separate Siberian geneflow. I think it is just excess ANE ancestry being picked up by models which use Western Iranians as a proxy for South Asians. The extra ANE would probably be eliminated when a suitable Eastern Iranian proxy is discovered, then the Eastern Iranian proxy can be tested for late Siberian admixture by modelling it as West Iranian + ANE + post-ANE Siberians. If it ends up as 0% post-ANE Siberian, then one can assume that the extra ANE in it is from the same wave that gave ANE to Western Iran in the first place, Eastern Iran could simply have more of it because that is where the ANE in Western Iran came from in the first place as it was getting diluted by moving Westward through Iran.
Ugh
6 months ago
OMG the other guy needs to stfu. He didn’t let a single sentence, coherent thought be completed and I got nothing from the podcast. Please ffs, rein it in and or use someone else as host. I was enraged by the 10th minute of nonsense interruptions.
goingmerry
6 months ago
Amey, if you’re reading this and have any decency, do everybody a favor and never cohost a podcast ever again. Seriously spend some time learning how to talk like a human being, lose the fake pretentious voice and those pathetic witty quips that you kept on trying, seriously cringe. You brought nothing to this conversation. I swear half of this podcast was you interrupting Razib on going back and forth on location precedence; for somebody who claims to be “well read”, you clearly know nothing and when explanations would be provided, you failed to absorb any of it and interrupted with more useless questions. Only ten minutes of an hour-long podcast covered anything related to the subcontinent. To Razib – the IE reflux pattern and catacomb culture distinction was interesting, thank you for sharing that.
Wiseguy
6 months ago
Hey Razib,
I had a number question regarding skin pigmentation. I was wondering if you could answer them since you excel in this topic.
How many melanin units does SLC45A2 bleach your skin in total (both alleles)? And does SLC45A2 display a dominance effect for the lighter allele in the heterozygous genotype like SLC24A5 and KITLG do?
2.I’m aware that TYR has a role in skin depigmentation along with the aforementioned genes together in a process called epistasis. For TYR, is it the GRM5 rs7114857 which plays more of a role in skin depigmentation or the TYR loci rs1042602? Or both?
3.Does TYRP1 play a role in skin depigmentation for West Eurasian population or does this gene play more of a role for East Asian populations?
4.Is DDB1 involved in skin pigmentation or is it a hit or miss loci like the ASIP gene?
5.Is the pinkish white skin complexion in Northern Europeans a result of other small-effect genes like KITLG rs12821256 and MC1R? (I’m asking because I have known people of Southern European, as well West Asian ancestry get homozygous for the light allele on SLC45A2 and SLC24A5, and have a swarthier brunet white complexion compared to the average pinkish white complexion that people of Northern Europeans ancestry display.)
brown_pundit_man
6 months ago
I noticed that after the Indo-Iranians bifurcated into the Iranians and IA groups around the Bactria area, some interesting and confusing things happened:
The Iranian branch became very extent 1,300 years later: The Iranians were found in Ukraine in 700 BC; Iran in 700 BC; all over Central Asia including Kazakhstan around the same time. Maybe all the way to Wusun China too.
IA only spread to South Asia.
Here are my questions:
Was there a gene turnover when Iranian spread?
Why did the Iranian branch become so mobile and extant? Why weren’t the proto-Indo-Iranians this extant and mobile? Why weren’t the IA this mobile and extant?
Finally, from what I understand in one of your podcasts regarding whether or not Jatts have Scythian genes (spoiler alert: They don’t), you had mentioned that the Scythians had about 10% Eastern Asian genes. Was this the result of East Asians migrating west?
Who mixed with the Iranians who migrated north of Ukraine?
Absolute tour-de-force from Razib, very few can marshal the archaeological and genetic analysis with such depth and clarity.
I do think in the future some wrinkles will be added. I am partial to Parpola’s multiple migration theory, with non-Vedic Indo Aryans arriving first and probably mingling with late IVC people, and Vedic Aryans arriving later, probably due to Iranian pressure. But its still just a speculation.
Regarding the current paper, I wonder if the Southern Arc de-emphasises the “lactase-persistence” theory of Yamnaya expansion.
lactase persistence expansion came later. even in europe it didn’t really take off until 2000 years ago
Razib didn’t get a chance to speak on it, but I wonder whether he believes any of the languages spoken in the northern IVC, prior to the arrival of Indo-Iranians, may have been related to Indo-Anatolian? Or did northern IVC speak a language isolate that is now dead?
Razib’s said a few times (on different podcasts) that he believes at least some of the northern IVC languages were related to Burushaski (now a language isolate and spoken only in Gilgit-Balitistan or thereabouts.)
Thank you. Yes I’ve heard him say that and it makes sense. I’m just pondering the possibility that some of the northern IVC languages may be related to Indo Anatolian and wanted to know his thoughts on it.
they don’t have LVC ancestry so probably not
This podcast episode and the one about srilanka genetics are promising but become almost unwatchable due to the insufferable and useless interruptions of Razib’s cohost. Guy needs to stfu.
Thank you. I’m glad I’m not the only one who found that. I came here just to say what you’ve said.
“…the main thing that is different between them and Yamnaya is the Yamnaya have ancestry from the indigenous foragers of the Dnieper river valley, who are basically a mix … majority western hunter gatherer with a minority eastern hunter gatherer ancestry.”
By Dnieper river valley, are you referring to Ukraine_N? If so, they are more EHG than WHG:
Target: Ukraine_N
Distance: 3.8593% / 0.03859279
63.4 Russia_Sidelkino_HG.SG
36.6 Italy_North_Villabruna_HG
However, they do have a little bit less EHG and a little bit more WHG than the older Ukraine_Mesolithic population:
Target: Ukraine_Mesolithic
Distance: 3.5812% / 0.03581249
70.8 Russia_Sidelkino_HG.SG
29.2 Italy_North_Villabruna_HG
Although you can say that Ukraine_N and Ukraine_Mesolithic are 40% to 50% ANE, so Ukraine_N would be mostly WHG if you decompose EHG into ANE + WHG. However that would be anachronistic because EHG certainly predates all known Ukraine_N and Ukraine_Mesolithic samples.
Adding Anatolia_N and CHG to the models doesn’t change much, and just for an extra check, there isn’t any Tyumen either (not relevant to what you said, but I did this to cover some extra ground anyway for clarification, they are ~95% EHG + WHG):
Target: Ukraine_Mesolithic
Distance: 3.2692% / 0.03269177
67.4 Russia_Sidelkino_HG.SG
28.6 Italy_North_Villabruna_HG
2.8 Turkey_Barcin_LN.SG
1.2 Georgia_Kotias.SG
0.0 Russia_Tyumen_HG
Target: Ukraine_N
Distance: 3.3198% / 0.03319771
57.4 Russia_Sidelkino_HG.SG
37.0 Italy_North_Villabruna_HG
3.8 Georgia_Kotias.SG
1.8 Turkey_Barcin_LN.SG
0.0 Russia_Tyumen_HG
A few more notes:
From what I know, Sintashta ancestry among Brahmin subgroups peaks with Gujarati Nagar Brahmins for whatever reason. More than Punjabi Brahmins, Kashmiri Brahmins/Pundits, Rajasthani Brahmins and UP Brahmins. Non-Nagar Brahmins of Gujarat however have less Sintashta than the aforementioned groups.
As mentioned in the podcast, Rors have more Sintashta than Brahmins and they do not have Maratha ancestry. My guess is that they may have been employed as soldiers by Marathas at some point, and so the identity of their employers stuck with them or something.
I don’t think the Eastern Iranians had any separate Siberian geneflow. I think it is just excess ANE ancestry being picked up by models which use Western Iranians as a proxy for South Asians. The extra ANE would probably be eliminated when a suitable Eastern Iranian proxy is discovered, then the Eastern Iranian proxy can be tested for late Siberian admixture by modelling it as West Iranian + ANE + post-ANE Siberians. If it ends up as 0% post-ANE Siberian, then one can assume that the extra ANE in it is from the same wave that gave ANE to Western Iran in the first place, Eastern Iran could simply have more of it because that is where the ANE in Western Iran came from in the first place as it was getting diluted by moving Westward through Iran.
OMG the other guy needs to stfu. He didn’t let a single sentence, coherent thought be completed and I got nothing from the podcast. Please ffs, rein it in and or use someone else as host. I was enraged by the 10th minute of nonsense interruptions.
Amey, if you’re reading this and have any decency, do everybody a favor and never cohost a podcast ever again. Seriously spend some time learning how to talk like a human being, lose the fake pretentious voice and those pathetic witty quips that you kept on trying, seriously cringe. You brought nothing to this conversation. I swear half of this podcast was you interrupting Razib on going back and forth on location precedence; for somebody who claims to be “well read”, you clearly know nothing and when explanations would be provided, you failed to absorb any of it and interrupted with more useless questions. Only ten minutes of an hour-long podcast covered anything related to the subcontinent. To Razib – the IE reflux pattern and catacomb culture distinction was interesting, thank you for sharing that.
Hey Razib,
I had a number question regarding skin pigmentation. I was wondering if you could answer them since you excel in this topic.
2.I’m aware that TYR has a role in skin depigmentation along with the aforementioned genes together in a process called epistasis. For TYR, is it the GRM5 rs7114857 which plays more of a role in skin depigmentation or the TYR loci rs1042602? Or both?
3.Does TYRP1 play a role in skin depigmentation for West Eurasian population or does this gene play more of a role for East Asian populations?
4.Is DDB1 involved in skin pigmentation or is it a hit or miss loci like the ASIP gene?
5.Is the pinkish white skin complexion in Northern Europeans a result of other small-effect genes like KITLG rs12821256 and MC1R? (I’m asking because I have known people of Southern European, as well West Asian ancestry get homozygous for the light allele on SLC45A2 and SLC24A5, and have a swarthier brunet white complexion compared to the average pinkish white complexion that people of Northern Europeans ancestry display.)
I noticed that after the Indo-Iranians bifurcated into the Iranians and IA groups around the Bactria area, some interesting and confusing things happened:
Here are my questions: