brown: if the fresh inputs from india is reduced ( because of immigration laws and raising prosperity back home), how long can ‘indians in u s a’ remain an effective group? i feel that they will dissolve in next 20 years.
Nivedita: That is such an interesting take! I agree actually. Indians are pretty much white adjacent and are intermarrying with whites, so in all probability what you predict might actually happen.
That’s a sharp observation, and worth expanding. The truth is, in the West, all immigrants eventually become “white”—not in phenotype, but in assimilation, in aesthetic, in aspiration.
Immigration has historically been less about lifting up new arrivals and more about managing domestic tensions & economic interests. Whether it was African slaves brought in to displace Native power, or white indentured servants supplementing enslaved labor, or post-1965 Asian professionals buffering against the civil rights upheaval—immigrants have long been used to stabilize, dilute, or distract from internal contradictions.
The idea that immigrants are indissoluble—that they will remain forever distinct—is more myth than reality. What really happens is gradual individuation. As immigrants leave their self-constructed ghettos, they adopt the dominant cultural matrix, which in the West is shaped by a historic high culture that is white, European, and liberal-capitalist in form.
There are rare exceptions: African-Americans, who have acted as a pole of resistance, not assimilation—pressuring the system to adapt and moralise through the Civil War, civil rights, and cultural leadership. Or diasporic Jews, though even they were deeply assimilated in Germanic Europe before 1933. And when assimilation fails—or appears threatening—states respond: Bhutan expelled its Lhotshampa, and history is littered with similar turns.
So yes, barring active resistance or external disruption, most immigrant communities flatten out within 2–3 generations. The young venture out, and individualism does the rest. It’s not that the state forces conformity—it just builds a gravity so strong, most can’t escape its pull.
How much of it is “white” behavior and how much is general “first world” behaviour?
White countries were the first to completely industrialize and become rich so maybe we conflate that behaviour with “white”.
The rich Asian countries are also “white” as are the upper classes in developing countries.
Of course there are subtle differences between white people and richer Asians but then such differences exist between white people as well.
I assume the traits you are talking about are things like individualism, a greater focus on pleasure/recreation, liberal attitudes towards dating/sex etc.
I think white is a shorthand for Empire.
I think ethnicity is very different but white & black; these macro racial terms denote historicised Imperial racial statuses, hence why they are so cardinal.
And we ultimately derive these identities in the New World..
But this is a neutral assessment; I’m not necessarily invested in these conversation but I am fascinated by Empire & the Republic..
Guyana, Suriname, Trinidad, Fiji, Kenya, South Africa. When there aren’t any white people around Indians tend to stick to their identity and culture. So much so that it creates its own bizarre time warped insular system far removed from the
motherlandwhich has undergone a whole different set of experiences.British Indians and Indian origin Americans I feel are a lot keener on integration. The difference between an Indian doing his undergrad in the US vs doing a graduate program is also very distinct. The accent changes, the malleable teenage mind fixes its identity closer to the country it is in.
I sense also a sort of mutual disdain, Indians view American desis to be ABCD with emphasis on the C. The ABCD’s in turn look down upon the maligned Indian accent with their own scorn.
It’s what made Indian Matchmaking such a good show. They exploited our mutual fascination for each other and played up the stereotypes to no end.
ABCDs don’t like Indians cause it hampers their own “integration” within white society.
In the future when India becomes rich and “cool”, ABCDs will emphasize their “Indianness”.
Same thing happened with Koreans. Korean Americans got a “point boost” when their “homeland” became rich and cool.
Thing is Indian Americans (and Asian Americans of all types tbh) are too small in number to influence anything and their perception depends on the home country.
Yes I agree, this is very true.
The associations in the mind of the surrounding populace (poor, dirty, polluted for India in western spaces) are key to the 2nd gen acceptance or rejection of culture. It begs the question, is it our own internal racism or the racism of others rubbing off on us. When surrounded by whites integration, when not segregation.
2nd gen Japanese still identify strongly with Japan, while they have intense frustrations with Japanese fussiness they are less keen to reject the original culture. No one has bad associations with Japan (even the Chinese/Koreans have a sort of hate/envy/admiration mix).
Indian Americans grow up as minorities so they see themselves as white people see them.
Once you get rich all the bad associations are of the hate/envy/admiration mix (the way the western world looks at current day china for example compared to say 20 years ago when they were poor rice eating communists).
To add to this point, some communities like the Indian Americans seem to want to actively integrate sooner. The integration may be faster (perhaps 2-3 generations say vs 3-4 generations for other ethnic groups). I also postulate that the proportion of Indian Americans integrating towards the dominant culture is higher relative to other Asian Americans. There is also a perception of marrying up (could be a subconscious caste bias) that encourages the need to integrate towards the dominant white culture.
Sure. I think we have a mix of both reasons at play.
a) to get away from the negative stereotypes (we need to coin a nice encapsulating phrase for this) drives the cultural desire to westernize.
This will change with an ascendant India.
b) the subconcious/conscious inbuilt racist/castist desire to whiten up the progeny physically.
This is a bit more stubborn as India itself goes for western leaning aesthetics on screen.
These drivers are absent or unavailable to Indian diaspora in the Latin American and African countries.
As a point to note, the Koreans and Japanese also heavily favour idols with western inclined beauty standards. The Koreans sort it out with cosmetic surgery, the Japanese tend to prioritize ‘halfu’ (their term for having 1 non japanese parent, not mine) on screen.
Agree. I do look forward to seeing an ascendant India, I find “wannabe or mimic” culture infuriating. Mostly because of the focus on the superficial, for example skin tone or excessive materialistic aspirations (to keep up with the Joneses).
Accurate observation on the Occidentals. Eyelid surgery in addition to skin lightening / cosmetic procedures. Unhealthy fixation imo.
I find people accent switching to be very infuriating. It is all very well justified as ‘code switching’ but the artificial affectation of it… I’m left with a strong desire to push some sort of reset button with a quick slap.
Couldn’t agree more! 🙂
Indians are more “westernized”/English speaking compared to other Asians
Yes, good observation, I missed that!
Well worth Repeating
Immigration has historically been less about lifting up new arrivals and more about managing domestic tensions & economic interests. Whether it was African slaves brought in to displace Native power (Native American), or white indentured servants supplementing enslaved labor, or post-1965 Asian professionals buffering against the civil rights upheaval—immigrants have long been used to stabilize, dilute, or distract from internal contradictions.
White indentured servants: eg Irish Overseers of Slave. even though they too went thru centuries of oppression
In Sri Lanka very obvious about assimilation and non assimilation
South Indian: Recent immigrants last 300 years to the West and South Coast have assimilated and become Sinhalese Buddhists. There is also a big contingent of Catholics (9% population) in the West Coast who two generations ago spoke Tamil are now Sinhala speaking and considered Sinhalese by most
The Gujaratis, Sindhis, Borhas even those who immigrated to Ceylon in British Times have not assimilated. Many cant even speak unaccented Sinhalese and worse marry from India. (I have a couple of classmates from each of these communities). I guess they want to be plugged into their communities worldwide business connection.
I think part of the reason earlier waves of (mostly European) immigrants became “white” was because they were Christian. Though there was a point where being from a Catholic country was looked down upon. The US is a secular state but the default culture is still Christian.
Muslims aren’t considered White. Turkey isn’t considered a European country even though physically a portion of the country is in Europe. Islam is still relatively closer to Christianity (one God, Jesus is a prophet). Hinduism–with its multiple gods– is incommensurate with Christianity. I think that will keep Indians from being considered “White”.
I don’t really understand the aspiration to be “White” but maybe that’s just me. I feel South Asian Americans are doing quite well in the US and are seen as a “model minority” overall.
I guess if you are on a “brown pundits” blog no one here is aspiring to be white. It is just an observation of brown people aspirations based on where they are. Most Hindus attending college in UK/US aren’t all that religious anyway and neither are the college educated Americans, probably more religious than europe but not intensely by any measure.
Still, you are right that religion does play a part, christian Indians integrate the most, they also have the greatest degree of western or ‘white’ aspiration.
Islam I feel tends to be much more insular, having both religious and cultural aspects to distinguish from the west. While Abrahamic, the familiarity isn’t emphasised as much as the differences/taboos. I imagine it is less about ‘whiteness’ & more about not giving in to western ‘temptation’.
Maybe you can write a piece about how you felt growing up in America, I’m sure we would all be fascinated by it.
+1
Even if most Americans aren’t particularly religious, the underlying culture is Christian. When I was young, we had no school on Christian and Jewish holidays but obviously not for Eid or Diwali. Maybe that’s changing in some places.
I was making the point that even if Italians etc were initially not considered “white”, their culture is still a lot closer to Anglo culture than say Indian culture.
Even in Europe, part of the reason Turkey was never able to join the EU was because it’s a Muslim majority country and Islam isn’t considered European.
I would imagine my experiences in America were not different from those of most privileged South Asian immigrants. My dad worked at the World Bank and there were lots of desi families in that social circle. My mom is a medical doctor and of course there were lots of rich Indian and Pakistani American doctors. Otherwise, my connection to South Asian culture was mostly through Hindustani music and the other students of my ustad.
I never really had to deal with racism either though immediately post 9/11, Muslims obviously came under suspicion.
I suppose my family never completed assimilated because my parents were clear that they were going to go back to Pakistan at some point. They were much more concerned with issues in the homeland than in the US. We went to Pakistan every summer mostly because both sets of grandparents lived there.