Asha Bhosle Deserved the Lead
Asha Bhosle passed away this week.
She was one of the most recorded artists in human history. She worked with Ustad Ali Akbar Khan on Hindustani classical music late in her career. She was, by any measure, a civilisational figure. She deserved the lead.
Instead, the open thread, by our resident Pakistan ethno-musicologist, led with “Why Indians have stopped reading.“
We noticed. Some of the commentariat thought we were being harsh. We were not. We know the game when we see it, and we do not like it.
The Disguise
The language of the liberal left has become the preferred disguise for Hinduphobia and Indophobia. This is not a new observation, but it bears repeating because it keeps working. You dress the hostility in the vocabulary of literacy rates, developmental failure, civilisational backwardness. It sounds like concern. It is not concern. If it were concern, one would ask the same questions about Pakistan. One would not, because the point was never the question. The point was the target.
Here is the test. One cannot hate India more than one love Asha Bhosle, especially when she was the leading light of one’s own passion. If the death of the greatest female voice in the history of Indian popular music does not move one to lead with her name, and a clickbait generalisation about Indian illiteracy does, that tells us everything we need to know about the inclination of the Author.
The Playbook
This is what a significant segment of Muslim liberal discourse does. It has learned the language. The vocabulary is progressive. The instinct beneath it is not. It hides deeply illiberal commitments behind the cover of global left credentials. The irony is that this playbook, run long enough, galvanises exactly the forces it claims to oppose. Jews, Hindus, and other minorities watch institutional Islam operate under liberal cover and draw their own conclusions. They are not wrong to do so.
The Mughal Test
In the discourse of the Western, Muslim & Indian liberal left, a Hindu is only a good human being if they love the Mughals, especially Aurangzeb. Not merely acknowledge them, love them. Never mind that the Mughal period was, for large parts of the subcontinent, a period of genuine civilisational injury. You are not permitted to say that. You are not permitted to have a complex relationship with your own history. You must perform gratitude or be dismissed as a chauvinist.
We say this as people who have integrated Zoroastrian and Islamic history into our own civilisational understanding, not because we were required to, but because our tradition demands synthesis. That is our path. It is not everyone’s path, and Hindus are not obligated to take it. Partition, on QeA & Allama Iqbal’s insistence, largely ended the experiment in synthesised civilisation on the subcontinent anyway. That wound is real and it is not healed by demanding that Hindus perform affection for the dynasty that inflicted much of it.
What Is Changing
Hindus before were easy-going. The hardcore commitment to civilisational identity belonged elsewhere. That is changing, and the people somewhat responsible for that change are the ones who spent two decades weaponising liberal language against a civilisation that mostly wanted to be left alone.
We can smell the game.
We do not like it.
Briefly:
I do not “hate” India. I wrote an entire essay about being a centre-left Pakistani-American. I’m not going to rehash that here. But “hating” India is an unfair accusation.
I do not “hate” Hindus. I’m going to be singing bhajans and shabads at a Vaisakhi event this weekend. So that’s another unfair accusation.
I hate Hindutva– a political movement. And I will not apologize for that.
I don’t expect anyone to “love” the Mughals or Aurangzeb. But an academically informed understanding of History requires people to move away from cliched beliefs that the Mughals were some kind of uniquely evil oppressors.
Lastly, Allama Iqbal was long dead by 1947. So blaming him for Partition is frankly a-historical.
To be honest, having read some of your posts – to most regular, centrist Pakistanis you come across as quite liberal and even pro India at times.
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“अर्धो घटो घोषमुपैति नूनं”
Nope but a lot of liberal Indians are also hardcore Indian nationalists and by extension Hindu nationalists. If any thing, the indian left is just the good cop that was long weaponized by the Indian establishment to push Greater India and the “Incredible India” propaganda before Modi.
Naah, that is the Pakistani perspective to give credence to the formation of their country using an evil fascist idea.
The OG nationalist of India were completely secular.
Indian nationalist cannot be Hindu nationalist simply because India has more non Hindus than the entire population of Pakistan.
Your last statement reminds of the actual issue you have. A rising India makes Pakistan seem smaller.
Imagine breaking away from a company to form your own while that company becomes one of the biggest and most powerful in the world while your new company is struggling.
This is something that has been long acknowledged by Pakistani writers/intellectuals
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/aug/14/india.features116
Indian nationalists may not even be Hindus but can be Hindu nationalists because they utilize Hindu nationalism which includes evoking Hinduism as a civilization to lay territorial claim to the entirety of south Asia.
That is because Hinduism has been part of the subcontinent for far longer than Islam and also been the dominant religion for longer, including what is now Pakistan.
Pakistanis choosing to deny their Hindu heritage does not change reality.
This is an appeal to tradition fallacy. Hinduism being in south Asia longer than Islam doesn’t really give you the right to disparage it nor does it give Indian nationalists the right to claim territory of every single country in the subcontinent. Nordic paganism having a much older history in Europe than Christianity doesn’t justify Nordicism or any neo-imperial ambitions.
Except for the fact that no secular Indian nationalist claims the territory of the rest of the subcontinent.
A lot of them do. Secular Indians talking about a Greater India, denying the individuality of other south asian countries and eliminating the Radcliffe line all the time. It was even worse before Modi, now they still have to pay some lip service to a rules based order so they don’t appear the same as Modi/the RSS. This was very common pre-2014, even now you’ll see secular indians especially in the diaspora, many of whom oppose Modi yet still claim all south asian things as Indian. Some Indian girl many years ago even tried to change the name of “South Asian studies” at an American school to “Indian studies” because to a lot of secular Indians all thing south asian belongs to the modern day political unit known as India. Fortunately school admins in America realized how dumb and polarizing her demands were.
Two different things.
No one is claiming the territory of the rest of the subcontinent. India recognizes all the other countries.
Culture is different. It was ALL “India” pre 1947 and Pakistanis denying it won’t change that.
It is the “Indian” subcontinent, it was British “India”.
South Asia is India. India is South Asia.
What do the other “South Asian” countries have in common with each other? They are neither neighbours, nor have common ethnicities, nor speak the same language. It is “India” that is the common element.
Pakistanis might not like it but at the end of the day they are an Islamic “Indian” rump state. The word “Pakistan” didn’t even exist before the 20th century.
India then also meant an Urdu speaking culture
The Republic of India still speaks Urdu?
Official language in 4-5 states with larger population than Pakistan.
World’s largest Urdu festival.
The lingua franca (mixed with Hindi as Hindustani) of North India and Bollywood.
El Khawaja,
You are arguing with someone who doesn’t understand the difference between a nation-state and a colony.
This is an extremely repetitive conversation and is not worth your time.
The Republic of India is the successor state of British India. No amount of back slapping will change that fact.
And who would be the successor state of the Republic of India if it were to break up? Do Dravidians even get a claim? Logically, they wouldn’t.
That depends on the circumstances that lead up to there.
But again, that is a hypothetical.
Why talk in hypotheticals when a real example exists?
In 1971, the vast majority of Pakistanis left Pakistan.
So why was East Pakistan not “Pakistan” and West Pakistan something like “Islamistan”?
Because West Pakistan was the successor state and maintained continuity by inheriting the capital, the parliament, the sports records, the UN membership etc and it remained Pakistan.
“Bangladesh” was formed in 1971.
Similarly the “Republic of India” was the successor state of British India and maintained continuity by inheriting the capital, the parliament, the sports records, the UN membership etc.
Similar to Bangladesh, “Pakistan” was formed in 1947.
Serbia is the successor state of Yugoslavia, Russia is of the USSR etc etc.
Can you tell me any examples of people who lay claim to whole of south asia who you consider Indian nationalist
A lot of Indians, probably even the majority. You see this both in real life and in literally every single comment section on every part of the internet. Even “Bindi twitter liberals” would weaponize racial solidarity and south asian unity to just debase and erase other South Asian identities under their whole “we’re all just indians” shtick.
Because we are lol.
It is Pakistanis who try to fight it by creating nonsense stuff like “Indus nationalism”.
“Pakistan” was coined in the early 20th century. It was/is ALL India.
I dont know about this. I mean I have never encountered Indians trying to claim Afghan identity. Or Lankan identity or Nepali identity for that matter. The only exception to this would be those who see value in India only for religious reasons and they regularly try to undermine national boundaries, irrespective of religion.
The thread seems sane at this moment.
Note to all; we aren’t going to be gentle in moderation if it flips out again, we’ll simply remove comments.
We don’t do Masala Threads anymore – this was something we felt strongly about. We love both Pakistan, India, Iran, Israel & the US..
@XTM:
We are calling the formation of Pakistan “evil” and “fascist” now?
The troll is back to his low signal and anti-Pakistan ways.
>“Centrist” Pakistanis are hardcore Islamists.
I disagree. I think majority of the ‘center’ is generally speaking ‘normies’ who go along with the prevailing ‘flow’. The problem in Pakistan is that the ‘norms’ are so far skewed to the right that a lot of even well-meaning folks aren’t able to recognize their own bias.
I believe its an awareness and education issue more than intentional religious extremism. Now when someone who is sincere about wanting to be ‘liberal’, will be capable of examining this with some degree of objectivity. Ones who do not, especially in the face of…. challenging comments, will shut their minds and become defensive.
That’s what I meant. And they are unaware of it.
So a few weeks ago I was trolling Kabir with a line from Dhurandhar – “Bharat Mata Ki Jai”.
Today he said he could troll me back with “Allah Hu Akbar”.
Thing is
“Bharat Mata Ki Jai” equivalent is “Pakistan Zindabad” not “Allah Hu Akbar” which would be the correct response to “Jai Shri Ram” or something.
But he automatically went to a religious rebuke.
No, the equivalent would be “J-i Hind”. Apples to oranges as usual.
It would not be “Allah Hu Akbar” in any case.
It would be to a religious slogan like “Bharat mata ki j-i”. Bharat mata/mother india is a Hindu deity, it’s not some secular national personification like mother Russia or uncle Sam or Lady Liberty.
Exactly!
“Bharat Mata ji Jai” is a Hindu slogan.
No self-respecting Muslim would be caught dead saying it.
Bharat Mata ki jai isn’t a religious slogan.
Bharat mata is a Hindu deity.
LOL.
“Bharat Mata” is a goddess. She is a personification of Durga. See Wikipedia.
You know perfectly well that Muslims cannot believe in any entity other than Allah. This is an absolute red line in Islam.
I will refer you to Wikipedia. If you have an issue, take it up with them.
“Bharat Mata” is a personification of Durga. Obviously, as a Muslim I refuse to believe in Durga or any other “goddess”. This whole notion is offensive to Islam.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bharat_Mata
Take it up with Wiki.
She is a goddess. As a Muslim, I find the whole notion of “goddesses” extremely offensive.
Keep digging.
“I was trolling Kabir with a line from Dhurandhar”–
Once again, the issue was not the particular slogan. The issue was that you threatened to hold a gun to my head.
I have never threatened to hold a gun to your head.
This is not “trolling”. This is a threat of violence. I am still livid.
@RNJ: Nice to see that you have no issues with an actual threat of violence.
I would be well within my rights to sue BB in court. Threats of violence are completely unacceptable.
That’s fair. I would identity as center-left.
Not to rehash my background too much, but I grew up in a family that believes in Nehruvian Secularism. My paternal grandmother was from what is now India (Agra).
I used to be much more “pro-India” but the ascension of “Hindu Hriday Samrat” to power changed that. Last year’s “Operation Sindoor” has only hardened my feelings.
More events to harden will happen if Pakistanis don’t mend their ways.
Focus on your economy. Getting a loan to pay a loan is a recipe for economic stagnation.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-04-13/pakistan-in-talks-with-saudi-arabia-china-after-uae-s-loan-move
Don’t threaten the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.
Pak Fauj is fully prepared to deter any Indian misadventures. That is their entire raison d’etre.
Pak cricket team is also fully “prepared” to win cricket tournaments. That is their entire raison d’etre.
Doesn’t happen though.
Difference between intent and ability – As seen in the 21 hour failed “mediation”
The obsession with cricket among Indian nationalists and thinking of it as some kind of proxy war between India and Pakistan is quite hilarious and pathetic at the same time. I’ve been hearing about Indians brag about the superiority of the Indian cricket team over Pakistan since I was a child, for some reason this gives you guys a weird sense of pride and superiority. Cricket is just a sport, nothing more and not even a very popular sport outside of south Asia.
Not even a very popular sport outside of south Asia. – Yeah well, both the countries are in South Asia and it is the most popular sport in both countries so that’s a moot point. Pakistan even made a cricketer PM lol.
And it’s not like India isn’t superior to Pakistan in EVERY metric lol – whether its socioeconomic or sports/arts.
Everyone needs to calm down on this thread; we have already removed 5-8 comments arbitrarily. Keep everything above board now please.
With all due respect, this entire post is a thinly veiled attack on me.
Of course it brings out the trolls.
I don’t appreciate personal comments questioning whether I am “center-left” or discussing my career.
There should be serious introspection about why BB and RNJ only come out when given an opportunity to attack Pakistan.
Ultimately, it’s just a sport – not some metric to size countries up against each other. If anything, Pakistan outperformed India at the most recent summer Olympics in Paris by being the only South Asian country to win a gold medal.
I don’t see everything as a competition but Pakistan is certainly cleaner than India and the people are more hospitable based off the many foreign travel vloggers and tourists that have been there. Pakistani cuisine is also the best in the subcontinent, at least from an American perspective because both culture love meat dishes and Pakistanis don’t overseason our foods with more than 2-3 spices/herbs. Our hockey team may be behind India currently but we still have the superior trophy cabinet, we’ve dominated squash in the past and produced legends, a sport where India isn’t even a passing mention. Pakistanis outperform in combat sports, Pakistanis in the UK are beginning to takeover the boxing scene.
Pakistan won a gold medal at the last summer games, not just any medal. India with 1.4 billion people won zero. With 6 times as many people as us you should have significantly more gold medals than us yet you don’t. We’re a garrison state that’s been the frontline on the war on terror for over 25 years, my generation grew up with war yet inspite of the economic and political issues, India isn’t significantly better in sports than us.
We have edited some of your comment; please avoid personalisation and derogatory comparisons.
“Certainly cleaner than India“, “More hospitable” – Absolutely not. These are all anecdotal subjective opinions and is not hard data.
Pakistan has a lower pci/HDI than India and is at sub-saharan African levels.
It is certainly not cleaner. Photo of Pakistan added for reference.
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“Pakistani cuisine is also the best in the subcontinent, at least from an American perspective“.
Again, completely false and anecdotal.
Indian cuisine is the superior cuisine globally and in the United States.
The US has multiple Michelin starred Indian restaurants and Indian restaurants have won the James Beard award.
Pakistan has ZERO of either.
Same with global Michelin star restaurants and being part of Asia’s 50 Best/World’s 50 Best.
These are objective metrics of a cuisine, not vibes like you have mentioned.
Bon Appetit has video series dedicated to Indian street food, not Pakistani street food.
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“Our hockey team may be behind India currently but we still have the superior trophy cabinet“.
Again, false – The highest achievment in hockey is the Olympic Gold and India has eight compared to Pakistan’s three including three before Pakistan’s existence.
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Squash yes but then there are so many other sports where India is superior –
Chess where India has had world champions
Badminton where India has world champions and olympic medals
Wrestling where India has world champions and olympic medals
Boxing where India has world champions and olympic medals
Shooting where India has world champions and olympic medals
Tennis where India has grand slam winners and olympic medals
Mind you – Chess, Badminton, Tennis, Shooting Pakistan is at ZERO, not even a passing mention
And even in squash India is better now lol.
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“Pakistanis outperform in combat sports”
No they don’t. Pakistan has won one Olympic medal in boxing and wrestling in history and that was in 1988 and 1960 respectively. India has won multiple, including both genders.
Pakistan do really poorly in combat sports and don’t even medal in world championships where Indians medal regularly. They don’t even medal in Asian level.
British Pakistanis are British not Pakistani. Using that logic Indians are doing well in NFL due to guys like Brandon Chillar lol.
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Naah, India is extremely better than Pakistan at sports. This is a cope.
2024 is not the only Olympics.
1992-2020 India won multiple medals including multiple Golds and Pakistan with a population of 250 million won ZERO across SEVEN editions.
While Nadeem’s achievment in 2024 was good, that was more of a black swan event than anything to do with Pakistan. Pakistan had only 7 athletes qualify for the Olympics compared to India’s 114. While India struggles against other countries, vis a vis Pakistan it is not even a competition.
The Asian Games medal tally gives a good picture. India 106 with 28 golds while Pakistan 3 with ZERO.
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“We’re a garrison state that’s been the frontline on the war on terror for over 25 years” – That’s a YOU issue
So everything you said that you were better at I have proved with objective facts that you are in fact inferior to India in those fields.
Come again.
And even those criteria have objective markers where they fall flat on –
“Better cuisine” but ZERO world renowned restaurants/chefs,
“Funnier” but ZERO famous standup comics who get Netflix/Prime specials
Straight up lie.
Better at combat sports? Which combat sports, bhai?
Asian Boxing Championships happened recently. India had 16 medals with 5 golds. Pakistan didn’t even medal.
Asian Wrestling Championships happened recently. India had 17 medals with 2 golds. Pakistan didn’t even medal.
India has a massive population and diaspora, many times larger than Pakistan’s. Having a handful of michelin star restaurants or some international movie stars especially during the peak woke/DEI tokenism wave, is to be expected but on a proportional level, India does severely under-perform compared to China, Brazil and Mexico. I’d say even Iran outperforms India in each of the categories you take pride in and they’re a country of 90 million people that’s been sanctioned to the bones.
Again, making someone else your abbu.
A common Pakistan tactic. Seen it in cricket too.
Betaji, the original question was where is PAKISTAN better than India?
You know your deflection logic applies to Pakistan too?
All those countries you mention overperform Pakistan too by a larger margin? In fact Brazil, Mexico and Iran have lesser people than Pakistan.
Countries like Sri Lanka and Israel with populations half the size of Karachi outperform Pakistan in many categories.
Pakistan itself has a massive population and diaspora.
Observe, now we see the third tactic Pakistanis use
Deflection
Most pakistani food is basically mughlai, punjabi and Sindhi food?
Exactly. No one knows “Pakistani food”.
Mughlai food is the most famous and is entirely Indian.
Migrants took it to Pakistan in 1947 but then Japanese taking ramen to USA doesn’t make it not Japanese.
Indigenous “Pakistani” food is “Doodh Soda”.
Pretty much, I’d also add Pakhtun and Baloch cuisine to the list. Sajji, Chapli kebabs and shinwari karahi are staples across Pakistan now.
None of those are famous.
There is a reason Pakistani restaurants label themselves as “Indian”.
DHU-RAN-DHAR
Grow up.
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And we are back to our low signal ways!
@XTM: This is what happens when you empower someone who is essentially a troll.
You started with that article. The soft Islamist.
You don’t know what “Islamist” means.
I have never advocated for a state run on Shariah.
This is a slur.
pot, kettle…
Your mask has slipped. Your bias has been repeatedly exposed here.
It is what it is.
And right on cue! The other anti-Pakistan troll appears,
Shall I remind you of “taqqiya” and “hate boner”?
Don’t you dare get personal with me. Nothing will delight me more than putting you in your place.
Welcome back, brother.
>I’m going to be singing bhajans and shabads at a Vaisakhi event this weekend. So that’s another unfair accusation.
Your disdain and utter lack of respect towards the very traditions whose output you monetize in your career has not gone unnoticed.
You have no idea who I am.
I was named after Bhagat Kabir.
There is no winning with you. If Pakistanis don’t embrace our Hindu past, we are “Islamists” or whatever.
If we do participate in minority occasions then it’s “cultural appropriation” or some such.
Calling me an “Islamist” is a slur. I have never once advocated for a state run on Shariah.
Words have meanings.
The equivalent of “Pakistan Zindabad” is “Jai Hind”.
“Bharat Mata” is a Hindu goddess. You know full well that Muslims cannot believe in any entity other than Allah.
Anyway, the problematic part of your statement was not the particular slogan but the fact that you thought threatening to hold a gun to my head was OK.
Keep digging.
Who called you an Islamist?
BB. Repeatedly on this very thread. “Islamist”, “soft Islamist”. etc.
This is not on.
Yes BB has to calm down
Okay.
We have yet to go through this thread but lots to remove.
“Islamist” is an absolute red line.
I do not stand for that slur.
If you indeed are singing bhajans and shabads then good for you to stay in touch with at least the nirguna aspects of your heritage. I hope and pray your tolerance extends to the saguna plurality of the subcontinent.
I am a trained Hindustani classical singer. Bhajans and Shabads are part of Hindustani music.
I will clarify that I absolutely do not believe in any gods other than Allah. My singing bhajans is not in any way an endorsement of Hindu gods.
I used to sing in the National Cathedral Choir in Washington DC. Yet by no means did this mean I accepted Christ as my savior.
I would link to my Spotify but I don’t want to give the trolls any more excuses for personal attacks.
1. The Hindu elites have stopped studying humanities. This is mainly because jobs are not forthcoming in this field.
The learned others like engineeres and scientists are filling the vacuum, but the right ‘language ‘ is missing. They are however countering the established narrative with logic, analysis and numbers for which the establishment has no answers.
However the whole excercice is reactive. The original provacator changes the goal posts. Earlier Hindus were good in argument and refuting. The newer lot needs to learn.
Being slick will take some more time.
Rajamouli and Dhar for the win!
This is why stuff like Dhurandhar is important (and other Aditya Dhar stuff). It replies in kind.
Every country can make propaganda movies, it doesn’t really do anything other than galvanize and radicalize low IQ nationalists who get to live out a fantasy that is far removed from reality. You like propaganda films because it gives you a sense of control, a belief that everything is alright when it isn’t. I think the Modi govt has mastered the art of satiating its base by giving them fantasy movies like Durinder, that way the action is limited to the screen.
Except for the fact that it is not a “fantasy” and “removed from reality”.
All of the assassinations in the movie happened in real life, admitted by Pakistanis themselves and reported by international media.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/04/indian-government-assassination-allegations-pakistan-intelligence-officials
Yes, India has been actively involved in cross border terrorism and transnational repression. We’ve had a few of these cases in America and Canada recently, your own admission isn’t really breaking news and no ones denying that however in this case, Rehman Baloch wasn’t assassinated by Indian proxies/intel.The only realistic thing about the movie from what I’ve read is the infiltrator crossing over from the porous Pak-Afghan border and the obvious presence and involvement of Indian intel in Pakistan.
Obviously the Lyari gang war stuff is all fictionalized in a Forrest Gump manner where everything happens as it should. Even in the movie Rehman gets killed by SP Aslam, not by Indian proxies.
All the Lyari guys met the same fate that they did in real life.
But all the unknown gunmen killings shown in the second movie are real (including the shooting image I posted which you had taken a screenshot of lol).
All the killings are referenced in that Guardian article.
Calm down please. You have been restored your Authorship; try to keep it.
Thank you.
11 comments deleted thus far across the spectrum.
Admin note to all; please keep it factual (not emotional rants) and above board.
Repeat offenders will be noted.
Yeah so it’s a fantasy/alternative history propaganda film by India.
It is not a propaganda film. The founder of Wiki himself removed that term when leftist editors added it.
It is a “fictional” movie but it is not “far removed” from reality. It is very much based on reality.
It is basically similar to Zero Dark Thirty, another movie set in Pakistan.
Hamza is similar to Jessica Chastain’s character – a fictional character who takes part in real life events.
@Kabir, Ask yourself this – You often like to post articles here from Scroll and The Wire. What is the Pakistani equivalent of these publications? A leftist perspective of Pakistan?
I don’t have to justify anything to you.
Do not interact with me. You haven’t even properly apologized for threatening to hold a gun to my head.
I have no problem admitting on record that India has greater tolerance for dissent than Pakistan does.
So why not focus on your own country? Black Vigo?
Dawn?
DAWN is a center-left newspaper.
There’s also “The Friday Times”.
It has to be said that Pakistan doesn’t really have an equivalent of “The Wire” or “Scroll”.
Dawn is the original Islamist propaganda lol.
Dawn along with the Express Tribune are some of the most liberal, self-critical (nearly self-loathing) publications in all of south Asia. A large reason why their commentariat (before they disabled/cracked down on comments) was largely Indian was because of how critical of Pakistan they were and still are.
Dawn on Dec 6 1971 lol
An article from 55 years ago doesn’t say anything about the present or the past several decades of critical journalism from Dawn.
That’s why I said “original”.
More right wing stuff might have pushed it to the left.
During independence it gave a lot of cover to the Muslim killers/rioters.
Well majority of the causalities were Muslims and it is a Pakistani publication so it can’t always bend to an Indian pressure.
>. If the death of the greatest female voice in the history of Indian popular music does not move one to lead with her name, and a clickbait generalisation about Indian illiteracy does, that tells us everything we need to know about the inclination of the Author.
Thank you for belling this cat. The constant stream of passive aggressive provocation dressed up as ‘center-left’ liberalism, the flood of cherry-picked un-original regurgitation of ‘criticism’ is an obvious pattern. And hitherto, anyone challenging it was attacked as “Hindoootva” (sic) who hate Pakistan or some such nonsense.
*Partition, on QeA & Allama Iqbal’s insistence, largely ended the experiment in synthesised civilisation on the subcontinent anyway. *
As long as other religions exist, as long as the followers of these religion participate in Indian bureaucracy, culture and society as well as support India, as they have done in its conflicts with Pakistan and against its numerous insurgencies, I think saying this experiment is over is jumping the gun. There is a lot to unpack but that does not mean, what happened in 1947 will define us in the centuries to come.
*That wound is real and it is not healed by demanding that Hindus perform affection for the dynasty that inflicted much of it.*
To be perfectly honest the mughals are not responsible for partition, the blame for that firmly falls on priveleged subcontinental muslims of the 19th to 20th centuries who chose religious revivalism, nostalgia for the muslim empire that their ancestors benefitted from and British divide and rule that encouraged combatativenss to other religions. Hopefully the growing pasmanda movement will take care of the nostalgia towards the mughals and figures like Tipu Sultan that is there. Don’t know if the revivalism will ever end in my lifetime at least.
I like you. Hope you stay around.
Conflating mughals and ‘partition’ is a red herring.
Don’t fall for it.
While Kabir is a liberal who cares about Indian secularism, I personally don’t care about Indian secularism and the left-right debate on Indian history or India at all. The Indian leftists are delusional about history because they overplay Muslims without crticism, but Indian rightwing just keeps on inventing historical lies upon lies and that makes them even worse.
The Mughal empire was largely an Indian empire, it was actually extremely tolerant of Hindus for its time and era — look what happened in rest of the world where Islam or Christianity have dominated over centuries. Infact not just Islam or Christianity, there were no empires where the ruling elite follows one religion over the good part of 6 centuries and their religion is still 10% of the total population.
Hindus think that this is something unique about Hinduism that Indian paganism survived where others vanished (and Allama Iqbal even cites this in his Tarana e Hindustan where he proclaims:
Yūnān o-Miṣr o-Rūmā, sab miṭ ga’e jahāṉ se
Ab tak magar hai bāqī, nām o-nis̱ẖaṉ hamārā
But he was also wrong.
It’s only due to tolerance and acceptance and adoption of local cultures by the Mughals and other Sultanates/Nawabates that proceeded it. When the Aryans imposed their will on native Indians, they changed the genetic, cultural, religious and linguistic makeup of India and made it Vedic. Mughals by and large, did not. Most of the conversion to Islam either preceded them or happened during Mughal decline.
We know very well how dividend Indian society is based on caste (which even shows up in genetic data – quite unique to the Indians)
To now historical claim unity like the RW is just disingenous. It’s a project, very much like Salafi Islamic which seeks to reform Hinduism and instil some asabiya. Targeting the Muslim minority and blaming them of all ills is a convenient scapegoat.
Pretending that Hinduism survived due to Mughal generosity and ‘tolerance’ is gaslighting. Of the historically inaccurate and obnoxious kind.
But then again, you do you.
Hinduism did survive due to fightback.
The Mughal empire was reduced to a shadow by the Marathas/Sikhs.
@X.T.M – example of “liberal” Muslim discourse mentioned in your article
Let’s be honest,certain Mughal emperors( and I am not even talking about Aurangzeb) were quite hostile to other religions whether this is due to their personal army and large parts of bureaucracy being composed of a large muslim contingent, who enabled them to assert power or personal reasons, we dont know.
But a better reason for why Hinduism persisted in peninsular India may be found in enduring dominance of local Hindu elites who were instrumental to supporting the mughal empire outside of Delhi and agra.
Also large parts of India, were not under formal mughal rule so that also helped.
Excellent comment – very high signal
When the Aryans imposed their will on native Indians, they changed the genetic, cultural, religious and linguistic makeup of India and made it Vedic. Mughals by and large, did not. Most of the conversion to Islam either preceded them or happened during Mughal decline.
@XTM – this is the 2nd time a now the racist, almost fully debunked theory of the so-called Aryan Invasion has been invoked by the same commenter? I know misinformation is not grounds for moderation in most platforms but where does BP stand on this?
We might need a Precedent Post on the Aryans?
“fully debunked theory on Aryan Invasion”
Wait what?
We speak Indo-European langauges with their ancestor originating in the Pontic Caspian Steppe, who brought Vedic religion with Indo European gods to India, you literaly now have genetic data confirming the influx of Aryans some 3500 years ago and how their dna is over represented in upper castes on an NW to SE cline.. but it’s all ”fuly debunked” and misinformation that needs to be banned
The Aryan migration is both scientifically and historical established.
The entire narrative about ‘brutal Islamic invasion’ falls apart in comparision.
Aryan migration is both scientifically and historical established.
Calling something a migration over centuries/perhaps millenia is very different from …
When the Aryans imposed their will on native Indians…
Don’t think you can hide behind a subtly moved goalposts. We Indians have been dealing with being gaslit by our own established to fall for that. We can smell that game.
The comparison between Aryan migration and Islamic conquest is false analogy at so many levels that it would perhaps require an entire post to debunk.
“Migrants” usually assimilate into local culture, they don’t become the dominant religious and linguistic force in a land of hundreds of millions, especially when we now have dna evidence that the upper religous supercastes have high ”migrant” dna which is also heavily Y-dna dominant (hint military aged foreign males copulating with young local females )
If there was a migration of foriegners (which is probably true) it basically followed this pattern: Aryans wage war, Aryans win, Aryans establish new empires, and more Aryans come in to run the empire and expand the borders.. This can happen over several centuries just like your ”Islamic invasions” but unlike those Islamic invaders, these guys actually changed the genetic makeup of their conquered territory.
In Pakistan, apparently its haraam to commemorate Asha Bhonsle’s passing.
https://x.com/AzharAbbas3/status/2043621481222144257
Doesn’t have anything to do with religion. India has a ban on Pakistani artists and entertainers as well as cricketers. Pakistan has a reciprocal ban. I don’t support this measure but this is the post-sindoor reality. Trying to spin this as religiously motivated, is bad faith commentary.
The fact that English speaking educated Pakistanis are defending the ban on commemorating the passing of Asha Bhosle, says it all really. The so-called ‘overton window’ is in dire need of being shifted in Pakistan.
Casual bigotry against Hinduism and Indians is just de jure and justified due to a bunch of varying fig leaves depending on the era or mood.
Regardless of the ‘ban’ on Pakistani artists, you will find coke studio videos on Youtube flooded with positive comments from Indians about Pakistani music and musicians. Even more so on videos that have legends like Nusrat or others.
Lets have the honesty to call a spade a spade. We can disagree of course, but with honor instead of dissembling.
Not defending it, more so rationalizing it. Does your analysis also applies to Indians? The fact that so many educated, well traveled, bilingual Indians have supported banning Pakistani artists and entertainers from India and politicized sports with the refusal to shake hands among other shenanigans the BCCI/Modi have tried to pull. I’ve rarely heard any opposition to the actions from the “educated class” of Indians.
oh there is overwhelming strong support for the Indian government’s actions and policies in response to 30+ years historical record of Pakistani government sponsorship of terrorism and murders of Indian citizens.
The day there is permanent, verifiable change in Pakistani state policy on terrorism with India, Indian society’s stance will adapt in that scenario and its elected government will follow suit.
My comment was removed but let it be known, the feeling is mutual. Most Pakistanis don’t want ties with India until there’s a comprehensive change in India’s state policies.
It was removed because you accused a venerable commentator of “whining.”
Keep it dispassionate and neutral not partisan and accusatory.
The issue is Pakistani TV channels are not allowed to air Indian content (songs, film clips etc). Whether one approves of this or not, this was the judgement of the Supreme Court.
I personally think this is a counter productive law. But on the other hand why should a country air the content of its arch-enemy?
Maharashtra Minister Hasan Mushrif visits Hanuman temple in neighboring KA.
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=1376782451144061&set=pcb.1376782761144030
In other news about how India and Pakistan are Sem2Sem in how they oppress minorities https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/tcs-nashik-sexual-harassment-religious-conversion-case-investigation-bjp-shiv-sena-ubt-2895377-2026-04-13
Except the “minority” in both cases “largely” happen to be Hindus :-(.
The Tata group’s media influence will ensure that all the media will cover it as TCS ensuring strict action will be taken whereas initial police reports indicate that management was more interested in suppressing negative press. Eventually this case will also be suppressed. But Sem2Sem narrative will continue.
[…] The Game We Can Smell April 13, 2026 […]
@XTM:
I am humbly requesting that you either delete this post or edit it so that it makes a general argument.
Right now, it reads as a personal attack on me. And as expected, it has brought out the anonymous trolls who feel they can call me names and make assumptions about my career etc. This is not on.
We are removing all of BB’s comments now. He knows better. He doesn’t need to litigate every single point constantly.
Thank you.