Race and religion trump class

Another month, another “Asian” grooming gang scandal. “Asian” usually, but not exclusively, seems to mean Pakistani British men.

A lot of the discussion around this issue centers on the perpetrators of the crimes. Their ethnoreligious distinctiveness. The cultural preconditions which allow for the development of these practices of abuse and exploitation as normative in certain circumstances and toward certain people (though the details differ, from what I know of South Asian communities, in general, there’s a fair amount of sexual abuse going on within the subculture that isn’t discovered because of norms of shame and concealment).

But, I want to focus on the victims. Whenever these stories surface the victims are invariably described as “troubled” and from “broken” homes. These were vulnerable children. Additionally, the powers that be did not see these girls as their girls. If gangs of Pakistani British men were abusing and raping the daughters of middle-class burghers, I am 100% sure that the police would pay immediate attention and follow-up on these cases no matter the sensitivities.

I think it is fine and important to highlight the subculture that fosters this sort of behavior through their assumptions about the sexual nature of non-South Asian women (e.g., I have had it explained to me by several men of Indian subcontinental origin whose tastes were toward the prurient that “our women are pure”). But these cases also illustrate stark class divides and the total lack of concern and interest by the bureaucratic and public service class toward individuals from the lower class.

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106 Replies to “Race and religion trump class”

  1. Two important factors explain why these gangs were able to carry on for so long. You touched on one (the indifference of middle and upper class British whites to lower class whites). The second is a case of crying wolf and how it comes back to bite you.

    Basically whites (and surprisingly British Sikhs per one report) have been very sensitive to Pakistani men eloping with their women for decades, and would make all sorts of accusations about kidnapping, rape, extortion, etc. Upon investigation these claims turned out to be untrue, so British police began to simply ignore complaints about Pakistani men and X women, chalking it up (reasonably) to bigotry.

    The problem of course is when real abuse actually does start to happen, and authorities have now become conditioned to ignore such reports, it starts to fester, and reaches the point we saw about a decade ago where Pakistani gangs were running major trafficking operations throughout England, basically with impunity.

    Of course, middle and upper class whites did not learn the lesson at all, and instead have chalked it up to the British being “too tolerant” and “too politically correct”.

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  2. Basically whites (and surprisingly British Sikhs per one report) have been very sensitive to Pakistani men eloping with their women for decades, and would make all sorts of accusations about kidnapping, rape, extortion, etc. Upon investigation these claims turned out to be untrue, so British police began to simply ignore complaints about Pakistani men and X women, chalking it up (reasonably) to bigotry.

    is this written anywhere?

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    1. actually Razib I think he is referring to
      https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6428197/amp/Sexual-exploitation-British-Sikh-girls-grooming-gangs-ignored-claims-report.html
      Basically Pakistanis have been raping Sikh little girls since the 1960s. They were ignored like little poor white girls. Granted, INDthings is a RoMAntic, so he will call it “eloping.” Some articles talk about how some wore a “kara” and faked being Sikh to target these girls. They used their ethnic affiliation to its fullest. What lovely men.

      And I am sure the reason Sikh men didnt “elope” with Pakistani women and the fact that amounts to a “sex differential of succes” means Pakistani Punjabi men are sexier than Sikh Punjabi men. Of course repression of Pak women and their cousin flings. No flying out to Pak after getting discovered with a Bradley or John.

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      1. “Basically Pakistanis have been raping Sikh little girls since the 1960s. They were ignored like little poor white girls.”

        But you see, in the 1950s, many white men and Indian men were fearful of the Pakistani man’s sexual prowess. They feared that their daughters would elope with virile Pakistani men. As a result, these jealous and bigoted cucks made many accusations against the virile Pakistani men. Understanding this, the police ignored future claims of this type.

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    2. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14746681003798060

      https://www.amazon.com/Unsettling-Sikh-Muslim-Conflict-Postcolonial/dp/1498510868

      Katy Sian has done a lot of great work exposing this phenomenon among the British Sikh diaspora. She’s also faced a lot of backlash from certain Sikh groups, who ironically accuse her of having slept with a Paki and therefore being under Stockholm syndrome or something.

      The idea of the Muslim man seducing the Hindu/Sikh woman for nefarious purposes is an old trope in the Indian community. The Love Jihad ideology among right-wing Hindus in India being a great example of how crazy sexual frustration can drive some people. Recently in Pakistan there was a case where a Sikh woman eloped with a Muslim man, the Sikh family threatened to kill her, and after that failed to bring her back, they started claiming she was kidnapped and forcibly converted.

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      1. “Love Jihad ideology among right-wing Hindus in India being a great example of how crazy sexual frustration can drive some people.”

        Love Jihad is actually a Mallu Christian discovery. The Hindu right merely co-opted it.

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          1. “Hindu right was the one that started getting shrill about that in Kerala, some mallu christians got sucked into the hysteria as well unfortunately.”

            Lol dude. Mallu Christians didn’t get sucked into it. They have been willing participants from the very beginning. I am sure you’d agree if you read the article you shared. And this complaint has been brought up by all three of Hindus, Christians, and Sikhs from time to time.

            It became a major issue among the Hindu right only post-2014 when things started heating up in UP or as you say started getting ‘shrill’. I use to live in UP till 2013 and I had never heard of it.

            This is just from yesterday:
            https://theprint.in/india/syro-malabar-church-says-love-jihad-a-threat-in-kerala-govt-says-it-doesnt-exist/351174/

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          1. @Saurav

            LOL, oh please we are not just all Congress and Communists, despite stereotypes, of course there is a Hindu right in Kerala, we even have RSS shakas. Who do think are the ones hoping to capitalize on the Sabarimala mess, as well as organzing the protests. They are not large in numbers though, thankfully most mallu hindus are the coolest chill dudes, as mallus will be.

            @Prats

            Dude I’m just calling you out on you saying mallu christians “invented it”. Own up to you just making up stuff, that’s all I’m saying, and if you’re in UP how hell do you know what goes on in Kerala? Btw what article did I link you too? I linked you to Wikipedia for the definition of “Love Jihad”, you will see no mention of generic “mallu christians” inventing it. The article you link to on the other hand specifically just says “Syro-Malabar” church are complaining about it. That is just one denomination among many denominations in Kerala and they have sort of a “hindu” mindset about conversions, they don’t like to accept nor have their flock converted, even by other christians, so they would have no problem joining up with the hindu right on that issue. Stick to the facts bro and stop making up fantasies.

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      2. So let’s get this. Sikh families were accusing virile sexy Muslim men of kidnapping their (adult) daughters who had enthusiastically eloped with them.

        And so the British police ignored accusations that they were raping underage white girls.

        Hmmm, something is wrong with this picture.

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  3. “British police began to simply ignore complaints about Pakistani men and X women, chalking it up (reasonably) to bigotry.”

    The British police and British society as a whole is xenophobic and racist. If you are a non-white living in a non-white area (like me) don’t expect decent policing. I very much doubt they ignored these abuses because they thought the victims were racist.

    One of the reasons why these white victims were ignored is because they were also seen by the white policemen as white trash. Many of these girls were from broken homes, ended up hooked on drugs and genuinely fell in love with their abusers.

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  4. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-23921570

    Many as young as 15. Wow sounds like an eloping conspiracy theory. Lovely stuff.

    The racist BBC at it again

    “Six men were jailed at Leicester Crown Court last week for offences including facilitating child prostitution. The convictions are being heralded as a legal landmark because it is the first high-profile case involving a Sikh victim of sexual abuse which has led to convictions in the UK.

    However, Inside Out London has uncovered evidence that there are potentially dozens of other young Sikh victims of sexual exploitation and few of these cases have come to court.

    The Sikh Awareness Society (SAS), a charity which focuses on family welfare, claims it has investigated more than 200 reports of child sexual grooming in the UK over the past five years, many involving Muslim men.

    However, there are no official statistics to support this claim, because incidents of sexual abuse featuring Sikh minors are rarely reported to the authorities.

    According to Det Supt David Sandall of Leicestershire Police, “when it comes to faith-based communities’ sexual abuse is woefully under-reported. We know it is going on but it is difficult to launch investigations when the victims and their families are refusing to talk.”

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  5. But these things must amount to “eloping,” insofar as INDTHINGS is a RoMAntiC. LMFAO. If anything British police ignored the Sikh complaints and they were understated.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6428197/Sexual-exploitation-British-Sikh-girls-grooming-gangs-ignored-claims-report.html

    “Last night Labour MP Sarah Champion demanded an investigation. She said: ‘I was shocked when I first heard about the organised abuse of Sikh girls by mostly Pakistani men.

    ‘When I started speaking to Sikh women, I could not believe how widespread the grooming and abuse was – and that this has been going on for decades. We need to speak of the abuse of Sikh girls to take it out of the shadows and make sure the authorities take it seriously. ‘

    The Rotherham MP added: ‘There needs to be a full investigation into the systematic abuse of Sikh girls.’”

    ‘The over representation of such perpetrators in selecting non-Muslim victims would appear to be indicative of a wider acceptability in certain sections of the community towards the targeting of young females from outside of the Pakistani community and/or Muslim faith.

    ‘Due to the failures of law enforcement agencies and local authorities in addressing the problem, such networks have continued to flourish.’

    The study included a case in 1971 when an 11-year-old was jailed for imprisoning a Sikh girl in Slough.

    In other reports in the 1980s, Sikhs were complaining about Muslims ‘pestering’ their girls or that their girls were being ‘used as sex slaves’.”

    Clearly, all liars. These little girls are in love. And sex differential of Pakistani men “eloping” with Sikhs girls and not the other way around, by the profound logic of INDThings must mean Pakistani men are sex gods compared to Sikh men.

    Btw, some reports take note of Pakistani men wearing a kara to trick the girls. If this blow up enough, I can guarantee Pak men lying about being Indian just like post 9/11. Indian when convenient and Persian Scythian Arab Turks when not.

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  6. LOL, what’s up with u warlock. I think we might have just found the 2nd love story (of warlock and Indthings) of the blog. The first of course being Razib and Kabir’s 😛

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      1. lmfao. a couple people here have me on social media. they can see my girlfriend. so another objectively false statement. great work. And boring insult. At least be a little bit more fun. try to be funny with ad hominem to give it some value.

        And what I posted is about rape gangs. Good job engaging. Minors as young as 11 I guess fell in love and “eloped” and “converted.” Great work. The targeting is well documented. But keep up strawman. Your logical fallacies continue to amuse. I have just realize your value.

        What you lack in logic and entertaining personal attacks, you make up for in getting routinely clowned

        And yes, Muslim S Asian men do marry non Muslim S Asian women more than the other wary around. There is no reason to think the ratio is dissimilar intrapunjabi and or between Pak Punjabi Muslims and different ethnic groups. If anything, the prior may be more prominent due to cultural ties. The reason there is this differential isn’t because these men “oh so sexy” compared to their women. This has been shown time and time again. Their rates are very low regardless. They are just high compared to the women because Pak Punjabi women are forced into subservience.

        https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/children/11723308/First-cousin-marriages-in-Pakistani-communities-leading-to-appalling-disabilities-among-children.html

        Very sad. No one wants disabled babies, especially not the women who are likely the caretakers. Hopefully, they liberalize and allow their women to date like everyone else.

        I was just helping my friend with dating app Hinge last night. It is a relationship app more than say Tinder. There are a lot of Pakistanis tri state area.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistani_Americans

        They form 25% of all US Pakistanis. So something like 140,000. 700,000 or so Indians. I counted S Asian girls on there through thousands of profiles. It confirmed my suspcions. Like 1 Pakistani girl for every 30 Indian ones. Very interesting. Btw, all groups use dating apps. Data shows, majority of relationships 18-25 in nyc form from dating apps. Paki girls are repressed.

        Jai Shree Ameen

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        1. btw, just asked a female friend at the hospital who uses the app. She put her filter on “S Asian” to only get those profiles. Ratio was like 3:1 S Asian non Muslims guys to Muslim ones. Absolutely glorious. Gives you an idea how the data skews. The reality is Pakistani Muslim women are brainwashed or directly punished for marrying out of their tribal religious and ethnic affiliation. The men are discouraged from doing so but realize tacit approval or even praise for the “win” of converting an outsider. This mentality gives you the statistics you see.

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          1. yeah they are. also, consequences for getting caught as a girl on apps are way greater. they genuinely fear getting shipped off and married to a cousin or excommunicated more than the guys. A Paki girl who goes to dental school with my girlfriend was just disowned completely for marrying a Vietnamese dude. What is interesting is that she still stays true to her conservatism and maintains a hijab. Her husband of course didn’t convert. He’s just from a buddhist background and pretty much an atheist at this point, from what I gather.

            I have seen Pakistani girls at Rutgers and NYU sleep around like all other people. But they are a lot more covert about it. It is out of self interest. I get it. A lot of their community rep hinges on their “purity.” Many FOB indians are like this, but like you stated, relatively fewer.

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        2. ” It confirmed my suspcions. Like 1 Pakistani girl for every 30 Indian ones. Very interesting.”

          A few months ago, I did this experiment where I purchased Tinder’s premium subscription and changed my location to various cities I am possibly never going to visit.
          (Islamabad, Lahore, Karachi, Tehran)

          I think the number of girls in Bangalore on the app in the age group 23+ would be 5x that in Lahore. Both are similarly sized cities.
          Tehran: Bangalore was more comparable 1:1.5-2
          (Might also have to do with lag in tech adoption. Bangalore obviously being way ahead.)

          Someone who works at Tinder might have the data. Also, a large chunk of the women in Lahore seemed to either be foreign educated or diaspora ones visiting the city.

          As far as looks are concerned, Lahore women looked mostly like the girls I used to date in Delhi.
          Tehran was definitely a revelation. Really pretty women, well groomed and well educated. Most were into fitness or some serious hobbies.
          A few were into Bollywood, which was a pleasant surprise.

          I am sure Indian women would look at Iranian men and make similar conclusions.

          Subcontinental people in general need to up their game.

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          1. Well, what “game” do you mean when you say “up your game”?

            When talking to Indian families, my family just posts few pics of me in a suit, me with my family, and my business card with my name and title. That’s very impressive to a lot of Indians.

            Obviously, doing that in America would put you straight into the incel zone.

            There’s different games to play. Don’t hate on Browns that choose not to play the White’s games.

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          2. “Well, what “game” do you mean when you say “up your game”?”

            The general aesthetics of themselves. Indians have a tendency to balloon like buffaloes after an age. Most folks have mediocre ambitions, no serious hobbies and are barely educated in even one language.

            All fair and good in a protectionist dating market. Will be blown aside with free competition.

            Talking about middle-to-upper class people, obviously. Poors have other worries in life.

            “Don’t hate on Browns that choose not to play the White’s games.”

            Don’t agree with this cultural relativism completely. Browns can do better as individuals and as potential partners.

            Even if you think it’s White’s game, you decided to enter it when you joined a dating app. Might as well do well there.

            And are Iranians considered whites or browns or something liminal?

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  7. This has been happening for so long, it is clearly one of the currents driving the major movements in British politics over the last decade.

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    1. “Rochdale child sex grooming ringleader uses Euro human rights law to avoid being kicked out of UK”

      This headline from 2016.

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  8. Sexual abuse is obviously a very serious topic and should be discussed. However, it is really interesting how such posts elicit a whole bunch of anti-Pakistani and sometimes downright Islamophobic comments.

    If the perpetrators of these crimes are born and brought up in Britain then calling them “Pakistani” is really a misnomer. Additionally, whatever circumstances cause these people to engage in such behavior likely have more to do with the place where they are living rather than their parents’ national origin.

    Rape and sexual abuse is a problem across South Asia and no one community has any business being smug about any other community.

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  9. However, it is really interesting how such posts elicit a whole bunch of anti-Pakistani and sometimes downright Islamophobic comments.

    using terms like ‘islamophobic’ is like using a magical spell on people after the ‘age of magic’ is over. using SJW buzzwords just makes people spit out their coffee at your don quixote behavior.

    jus stick to your points. like: Rape and sexual abuse is a problem across South Asia and no one community has any business being smug about any other community. (this seems a proper observation)

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    1. true. But in the West, where people are presumably wealthier and more educated, it is especially an issue among British Punjabi Pothari Sunni Muslim men, an issue so rampant that it is not unreasonable to think some special cultural component maybe at play to entrench the “rape issues” of S Asia so deep that it crosses over several generations

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        1. I got a few “Paki” comments hurled my way on nights out in Newcaste (I studied abroad there at Northumbria uni for a semester) on nights out from druken middle aged men and women. Actually one really drunk girl my age told me that I look like a “Paki taxi driver.” I said some not so nice things back. I was there only with a German friend I lived with in international housing and she was in a massive group. Luckily, people in that group were sensitive to the fact that she started the interaction with her racist comment. It was actually a couple black guys in her group who told her than she got what she deserved.

          It hurts all S Asian men when any group acts in such a way because it furthers the negative stereotype, especially when it happens so brazenly in the West.

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          1. “It hurts all S Asian men when any group acts in such a way because it furthers the negative stereotype, especially when it happens so brazenly in the West.”

            I’ve also experienced this racism up north especially after a Muslim terrorist attack. People up north think all South Asians are Muslims.

            But the truth is if those white people are so stupid to stereotype the entire South Asia then you probably don’t want anything to do with those idiots.

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      1. And now we are showing our prejudices against Punjabis and Sunnis? Nice to see the attempts to play Shia and Sunni against each other.

        Your bigotry is truly disgusting.

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    2. I was making a specific point. Topics like this encourage people to immediately spew anti-Pakistani and anti-Muslim bigotry. This is a problem with the commentariat not with you obviously.

      If the shoe was on the other foot and the post was about Indian men, the comments would be very different.

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      1. please point to a country where Indian men are overrpresented by such a degree as pedophiles or rapists relative to their population, even as 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants

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      2. some of the commenters are crass and vulgar. some of them are not.

        that being said, the idea that some questions/ideas are ‘islamophobic’ or racist is one clear reason why this problem with pakistani british men festered for a generation. the only people to speak of it were people with strong axes to grind.

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        1. The things said about Pakistanis and Muslims on this blog would not be tolerated if they were said about Hindus. The double standards are glaring to those who choose to look objectively.

          I was raised to be polite about all communities. I guess some people were not taught that lesson.

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          1. The things said about Pakistanis and Muslims on this blog would not be tolerated if they were said about Hindus.

            can u give an analogous view that would trigger the commenters?

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          2. The apparently benign (if stupid) topic of Pakistani vs Indian sexiness immediately led to comments about rape, cousin marriage etc.

            Such wholesale attacks on the Hindu community would outrage people. But some people don’t lose any opportunity to demonstrate their hatred of Pakistanis.

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          3. “The things said about Pakistanis and Muslims on this blog would not be tolerated if they were said about Hindus.”

            In the real world, the things said about ANY religion in the world would not be tolerated if they were said about Muslims / Islam. The one religion that the left ensures is entirely shielded from any criticism. Without sunlight acting as a disinfectant, degeneracy festers and you get the type of crap you see in the UK re Muslims.

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          4. It is not true that Islam is the one religion that can’t be criticized. And it is not just the “left” silencing people. In the US, even criticism of Israeli government policies is sometimes called antisemitic. There are laws penalizing people for supporting BDS. And we are talking here of criticizing a government, not about attacks on a religion as such.

            I have no issue with academic criticism of Islam. However, too often criticism of Islam melds into bigotry against Muslims. It is this bigotry that the Left is against. Muslims are a minority group in the West (and in India) and it is a core tenet of the Left that minorities must be protected.

            If you can’t see that the tone of many of the comments on this blog about Pakistan and Muslims is extremely offensive, it probably reflects your own biases.

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  10. (idiots like kabir jabbering about ‘islamophobic’ this or that guarantees that internet hindus are never gonna shut up about ‘hinduphobia’ are they??? i still think ganesh is funny tho)

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  11. What is interesting is that she still stays true to her conservatism and maintains a hijab. Her husband of course didn’t convert. He’s just from a buddhist background and pretty much an atheist at this point, from what I gather.

    in the usa hijab seems less about piety than identity. this is kind of weird, and a new dev. it’s like a cross btwn islam & identity politics.

    it’s pretty taboo for a muslim woman to be having sex with an uncircumcised man, so she’s really crossed a line there. but good for her 😉

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  12. Haven’t yet read all the above.

    We reached out to Mimzy Vidz (leader of the global ex muslim movement) for an interview (Mukunda and Emissary intend to interview her).

    Over more than a generation (more than 30 years) a majority of all molestation and rapes of English females under the age of 18 were by Pakistani males. Pakistanis (male and female) represented 1% of the population during the early part of this period and represent 2% now.

    About 18,000 minor females a year were raped or molested by Pakistani males. Many of these Pakistani males were from Mirpur.

    Mimzy has said that part of the reason that these nonmuslim british females (almost all of the victims were nonmuslims; they were atheist, christian, jew, hindu/sikh/buddhist) were molested was because of the way Mirpur male Pakistanis interpreted the holy Koran and Hadiths. They believed that they were legally permitted sex slaves via conquest.

    Homo sapien sapien modern have not yet dealt with the slavery virus.

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    1. They believed that they were legally permitted sex slaves via conquest.

      this is a common view. though at least it’s often watered-down. basically sex with non-muslim women “doesn’t count.” i’ve had relatives tell me about hook-ups boastfully who then marry and settle down and become super “conservative.”

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      1. exactly lol. And the women in these cultures have purity “enforced.” dharmic culture generally tends to frown upon male and female promiscuity. The version of Pak Sunni Punjabi culture these guys come from gives tacit approval and even encouragement of sleeping around with the “kaffirs” for pleasure and either converting them to islam or ideally just marrying a cousin in the tribe. this is largely what makes up the “differential” INDthings is so proud to quote.

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        1. Hindu girls in India have been raped by Hindu men with the excuse that they were “wearing jeans”. As for purity culture, “sati savitri” is not an Islamic term. Delhi has been called the rape capital of the world.

          You are simply an anti-Pakistani and anti-Muslim bigot.

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          1. yes. this true. and Razib is correct too. Hindus have rape issues in S Asia. So do Muslims. But in the diaspora, Pakistanis are the worst offenders. Show me a country where Indians are so overrepresented among rapists and pedophiles. Forget even after 2nd and 3rd generation assimilation.

            I doubt Pak has great rape stats. The HDI average is that of Bihar. Watch “Pakistan’s Shame” documentary on bachabazi. Women there are put into the home sphere so much that a lot of rape is of little boys. Regardless, all of S Asia has a rape problem. But among the diaspora, Pakistanis especially have a rape problem.

            Jai Shree Ameen

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          2. Something must be going on in the UK. Presumably these people didn’t just get off the plane from Pakistan and start raping people. So this is a British problem and not a Pakistani one.

            Making disgusting generalizations about a nation of 210 million people is unacceptable.

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          3. “As for purity culture, “sati savitri” is not an Islamic term”

            I watch a bit of Pak TV. They use a lot of Indian terms, (perhaps due to Bollywood), words which we dont use anymore. Like “Ashirwad” (Blessings) , “Virajman” (Seated), “Shudra”, etc but they butcher the pronunciation though. A Pakistani friend once told me that we do the same with urdu , on our TV 😛

            But my favorite remain Pak folks pronouncing “Narinder Mudi”

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          4. IDK about the entire Pakistani diaspora, but apparently a lot of the Pakistani diaspora in the UK, specifically England are from Mirpur. So there might be a heritable aspect to the problems they cause since a large number of them come from one very specific place.

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          5. Warlock says
            Regardless, all of S Asia has a rape problem.

            Please, leave us darkies in Sri Lanka from S Asia.

            What are rape stats in Kerala.

            Is there a Cline, higher steppe/indo aryan higher the rape culture ?

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    2. wow. That is insane if true. I have to double check. I know it is overrepresented but 25-50x! Many of the members on pakdefense are from UK and brag about (full of hyperbole I am sure) sexual exploits. I wonder how much of that is rape via prostitution of children? Scary stuff.

      https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/honour-culture-protects-pakistani-grooming-gangs-bkfx6ndz8

      This talks about the influence of honor culture. It is paywalled so I had to go through my university website to read it. Interesting.

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      1. “This talks about the influence of honor culture.”

        Honor culture?

        Must be a British problem!

        Blah blah blah (insert anything to deflect any and all blame and agency from anything to do with Pakistani culture or Islam; ideally throw in buzzwords like IsLaMoPhObIa)

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        1. No one ever said that “honor culture” is a British problem.

          “Honor culture” is a South Asian problem, not a specifically Pakistani or Muslim one. Khap Panchayats are not a Muslim thing.

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          1. A little logic lesson (which is probably wasted):

            Fact: British grooming gangs are overwhelmingly Pakistani Muslims.

            If “honor culture” is not solely the property of this group (as you assert) then all that does is to rule out “honor culture” as being the sole salient factor. There must be some other property this group possesses (to the exclusion of all other groups) that is behind this.

            Hmmm… must be the sexy virility this group (alone) possesses.

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  13. “the pakistani british subculture in north england is distinct. it is neither wealthy nor educated. and, importantly, it is mostly british-born.”

    Education is not an exclusion. Trigger warning. So don’t read further if you don’t want to hear disgusting stuff.

    I know a UK born non-muslim south Asian girl Dr who got into a relationship with a 2nd generation Pakistani Dr from up north. He lied and promised a relationship. But he got married secretly to his cousin in Pakistan and broke the girls heart.

    He opened up to her that he got molested along with his brother and sister by his dad. Him and his brother used to also have casual sex relationships with men (no doubt an influence of his father’s molestation). This is all the while this family fasts and observes Eid and prayers.

    And get this his sister is a educated Dr and enjoyed the incest. That is how grooming works. What is happening within the community will make the grooming gangs look like a drop in the ocean.

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  14. “What is happening within the community will make the grooming gangs look like a drop in the ocean.”

    Projection much? I think because of global media sensationalism that incest (and priests abusing minor boys) is often exaggerated. We need data to verify how representative these stories are.

    This said, the “upper middle class” molestating boys was an enormous issue during the Mughal empire and in modern Pakistan and Afghanistan.

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  15. yes. this true. and Razib is correct too. Hindus have rape issues in S Asia. So do Muslims. But in the diaspora, Pakistanis are the worst offenders. Show me a country where Indians are so overrepresented among rapists and pedophiles. Forget even after 2nd and 3rd generation assimilation.

    the pak british subculture has indigenous ‘chav’ components. it’s not entirely useful to think of it as a pakistani thing imported. i have a cousin who grew up in n. england and a lot of these guys mix & match cultural elements in weird ways. eg heavy drinking + strong sense honor/ownership of ‘own women’ + leering attitudes toward non-pak ‘slags’

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  16. Such wholesale attacks on the Hindu community would outrage people. But some people don’t lose any opportunity to demonstrate their hatred of Pakistanis.

    yes. i’m asking: what is the equivalent attack? like what post would be analogous to make a bunch of pakistanis talk about indians similarly?

    1+
    1. If the rapists referred to in this post had been Hindu men and of Indian origin, I would imagine the comments here would be quite different.

      Even criticism of the caste system outrages people on this blog. It is viewed as an attack on the Hindu religion. Yet attacking Islam is seen as something that is quite acceptable. A bit of a double standard no?

      0
  17. Even criticism of the caste system outrages people on this blog. It is viewed as an attack on the Hindu religion. Yet attacking Islam is seen as something that is quite acceptable. A bit of a double standard no?

    re: caste. can you give an example of this? i don’t recall this. i know some people don’t think caste has anything to do with hinduism, but that’s kind of dumb.

    1+
    1. I can’t give you an example off hand but this topic has come up several times in the past and we have been treated to long defenses of “varna” and “jati”. People defending caste in the 21st century is just bizarre to me.

      Criticizing even such an obviously inhumane aspect of Hinduism is so upsetting to people. But repeatedly generalizing about Islam is just fine.

      0
    2. Some of us (including me) have argued that caste is getting less salient in India, at least in more urbanized areas. We say this based on our personal interactions and observations. Clearly it doesn’t mean that caste discrimination doesn’t exist, but people on the left can take what we are saying the wrong way and assume we are defending caste and turning a blind eye towards injustice. It’s similar to how people on the left in the US see racism; clearly, it’s been decreasing but the rhetoric around it seems at least as shrill as it’s always been.

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  18. @Kabir

    “the apparently benign (if stupid) topic of Pakistani vs Indian sexiness immediately led to comments about rape, cousin marriage etc.

    Such wholesale attacks on the Hindu community would outrage people. But some people don’t lose any opportunity to demonstrate their hatred of Pakistanis.”

    1. Cousin marriage is a fact among UK Pakistanis. There are reports like one above linking it birth defect prevalence. It was part of broader point that Pakistanis are betrothed in set agreements early on and there is a strong honor culture heavily tribal system that keeps women from interracially dating or going out and doing things, even in the West, thus resulting in the magical “sex differential” Indthings was taking pride in; after he was unable to refute and of the relationship statistics, even falling flat on the “married” vs”want to be married” point that was thoroughly dismissed with the fact that both groups get arranged marriages, even the undesireable men, yet one still has more interracial marriage stats.
    2. Rape and pedophilia are an especially big set of problems for Pakistani Punjabi UK diaspora. This is just facts and what this discussion is about.
    3. The sexiness discussion started off with facts about marriage stats and relationship stats that were conveniently ignored. It got boring. So I added some flavor to it, albeit with facts rather than madeup generalizations and other lies like INDthings.
    4. There was ad hominem on both sides. He just called me an “incel.” He also admitted to mudslinging himself. Frankly, the whole thing has been quite entertaining for me.

    4+
    1. You linked cousin marriage to incest. I already made the point on that thread that different cultures have different definitions of “incest” and marrying your first cousin is not considered incestuous in Islam. There is no reason for you to disrespect the practices of people of a different religion than your own.

      I’m not going to defend INDTHINGS but your comments on that thread and on this one are quite revealing of the amount of bigotry you have about Pakistanis and Muslims.

      1+
      1. Not all cultures are worth the same level of respect and praise in all ways. Some cultures are inferior in some ways. Very rarely categorically inferior though.

        One inferior aspect of Pakistani islamic culture and also Hindu culture in the South particularly in the modern era (high level of cousin marriage in both) is the cousin marriages, which is a harmful practice that promotes birth defects.

        South Indians don’t seem to bring it with them to the west. Pakistanis do. Sati is bad. Child marriage is bad. I would “disrespect” those practices too. Caste is very bad. Those things are terrible. I agree on that.

        Btw, Hindu right wing is transitioning away from being so caste obsessed. A huge portion of BJP’s 35% came from OBCs and Dalits. Modi himself is an OBC. This “caste stuff” if anything I see endorsed more on online by racialists who equate proportion of steppe to one’s value as a person, a view I see quite bit on some types of forums…

        3+
  19. 4. There was ad hominem on both sides. He just called me an “incel.” He also admitted to mudslinging himself. Frankly, the whole thing has been quite entertaining for me.

    genuine racists would also find it funny…. like a ‘who are the sexiest asians’ jap vs. chinese argument.

    1+
    1. Japanese clearly. They are lighter on average, more martial historically, hairier because of Jomon admix, and “honorary aryans” 😉

      3+
  20. I can’t give you an example off hand but this topic has come up several times in the past and we have been treated to long defenses of “varna” and “jati”. People defending caste in the 21st century is just bizarre to me.

    this is a minority viewpoint. i doubt most regulars would defend caste in the way it’s practiced among indians.

    2+
  21. You linked cousin marriage to incest. I already made the point on that thread that different cultures have different definitions of “incest” and marrying your first cousin is not considered incestuous in Islam. There is no reason for you to disrespect the practices of people of a different religion than your own.

    first-cousin marriage is permissible in islam. but it’s prevalence is clearly due to local conditions. e.g., is the society tribal? first-cousin marriages havee a much higher rate in the arab world and pakistan, than turkey or bangladesh.

    the pakistani british practice then is best understood as a cultural practice given religious sanction.

    3+
    1. Agree with Razib. First cousin marriage is cultural. It should not be excessively criticized as immoral.

      However, genetically, it is not optimal for children.

      1+
  22. Indian and Pakistani men comparing and arguing over factors that are immutable (race, physical attributes) is a snapshot of all that’s wrong with these countries.

    FWIW race has nothing to do with sexiness or attractiveness, I see see the Sri Lankan or Afro-Caribbean guys pull way more than Pakistani or Indian guys in the UK Midlands town I live in. After a few failed attempts in the club, the desi Boyz eventually end up smoking sheesha together on weekends and bitching about everything. So much for enmity and differences, the same blood is so evident lol

    5+
    1. according to Indthings, these must be the Non-Punjabi Indian and Pakistani men, probably silly gangetic plains and mohajir types 😉

      The real Shers of the 5 rivers would have no problem swimming in the river of British punani

      5+
  23. It would be nice if people bothered to find out about “sati savitri” before discussing it.

    “sati savitri” is regarded as one of many methods that females can CHOOSE to increase their physical health, mental health and intelligence. Along this path people gain an increased observation of their brain and nervous system (especially the perennial nervous system) and begin to consciously be able to use more than 5 sensory inputs (some neuroscience papers estimate that there are 33 sensory inputs, some estimate that there are 22 sensory inputs)

    Females can also CHOOSE the avadutha path (where traditionally they don’t wear any clothes), the path of Yoga (Raja Yoga, Mantra Yoga, Laya Yoga, Hatha Yoga), the path of service, the path of wisdom (close to atheism), path of devotion; or any other path they choose.

    1+
    1. The point was that it is not an Islamic term. Another example of Hindu “purity culture” is Sita’s agnipariksha. A woman being forced to walk through fire in order to prove that she hasn’t been sexually violated definitely falls under “purity culture”.

      So let’s not generalize about Islam and “purity culture”.
      As for people bothering to find out about things before discussing them, apply this damn standard to yourself. If you did, we would be spared all your stupidity about Islam.

      0
        1. Saurav, not to diminish your compliment to Kabir, but I know quite a few Pakistanis with high familiarity with hindu epic literature, vedanta, buddhism and what not. In the long run, if both inter and intra-religious discourse weren’t so tendentious I could imagine a broader set of Pakistanis exploring this stuff more.

          0
        2. Well i dont spend time learning about theological aspects of Islam, so i wasn’t expecting a Pakistani to know much abt Hinduism (apart from the Bollywood stuff) .OTOH, a Pakistani knowing abt sikhism wouldn’t surprise me considering its a Punjabi religion.

          I was also surprised by couple of Bangladeshi folks knowing some stuff abt Mahabharata, considering that some of by Bong hindu friends know hardly anything abt it (and that’s not a surprise)

          0
  24. Calling the perpetrators of sex grooming offences British Pakistanis is rather misleading. The northern towns and cities where most of these cases happen have large Mirpur Kashmiri populations. My family lived in Bradford where you could see the ugly combination of a backward, unskilled and uneducated, tribalistic and highly conservative culture with youth who loved low-level criminality, selling drugs and the worst aspects of ghetto culture. British Bangladeshis manage to avoid running rape gangs as do British Pakistanis who don’t have Kashmiri ties.

    2+
    1. mirpuris and sylhetis. they’re not representative. but i think we need to concede at some point that nonbrownz aren’t gonna get these details. so we call them mirpuris and bangladeshis (my family there are non-sylheti obv).

      the bangladeshis are not a good ‘control’ since they are so much more likely to be immigrants concentrated in london. the pak community in places like bradford is highly native-born.

      0
      1. from my knowledge, miripuris are a potohari ethnic Punjabi people, despite the fact that miripur is in POK

        1+
        1. IDK about regular Potohari Punjabis, but the Potohar Rajputs are like this:

          “sample”: “Potohar_Rajput:Average”,
          “fit”: 1.8453,
          “IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2”: 54.17,
          “RUS_Sintashta_MLBA”: 20.83,
          “IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1”: 12.5,
          “Paniya”: 12.5

          One bonus Brahmin result-

          “sample”: “Potohar_Brahmin:Average”,
          “fit”: 1.9859,
          “IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2”: 45.83,
          “RUS_Sintashta_MLBA”: 21.67,
          “Paniya”: 19.17,
          “IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1”: 13.33

          They seem to be like generic north Indian Rajputs and Brahmins.

          0
          1. I like running these different models. I get:

            “fit”: 2.7042,
            “IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2”: 77.5,
            “RUS_Sintashta_MLBA”: 10.83,
            “Paniya”: 10,
            “IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1”: 1.67,

            Wow, I am a super Indus heavy dude. The river mothers and fathers have truly blessed me.

            What is the difference between BA1 and BA2?

            0
          2. The new BA2 on G25 is a combo of the old BA2 and old BA3 from Narasimhan’s paper. Old BA2 was around 14% AASI/AHG and the rest was Iran + Tyumen. Old BA3 was over 40% AASI with the rest being Iran + Tyumen. Additionally, old BA2 looked like it had a little more Tyumen than old BA3. IDK what the number of these samples was so I have no prior clue about the composition of the new BA2. I am not sure if simulated AASI on G25 produces the same result as Narasimhan’s AHG component, but this is what I get with G25 anyway. Using Ganj Dareh, Tyumen, Simulated AASI (simulated by someone on anthrogenica):

            “sample”: “IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2:Average”,
            “fit”: 2.6674,
            “IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N”: 60,
            “CustomGroup_Simulated_AASI”: 31.67,
            “RUS_Tyumen_HG”: 8.33

            I don’t expect this to be completely accurate since the simulated AASI is ultimately derived from Onge which is not a very good proxy for actual mesolithic AASI.
            BA1 (old and new are unchanged as far as I know) on the other hand was Iran + Anatolia + Tyumen/WSHG + AASI. It was under 10% AASI and had plenty of Anatolian ancestry, so it was a bit like the BMAC samples which were entirely Iran + Anatolia + WSHG/Tyumen.

            The biggest difference between new BA2 and BA1 is that BA1 has Anatolia component and less AASI than BA2.

            Incidentally this Iran + Anatolia + Tyumen combo in the past feigned similarity to CHG + EEF (descended from Anatolia) + EHG combo which resulted in overestimation of the steppe component in south and central Asians back in 2015 to 2017.

            0
    2. Ali Choudhury, agree with your observations as was indicated in my comments above.

      Therapists and molesters represent a small subset within the much larger superset of Pakistani male Britons. Albeit it is unlikely they would have behaved this way unless they believed their activity had holy Koranic and Hadith sanction. {Obviously I believe that the holy Koran can be interpreted in a way that makes slavery–including sexual slavery–illegal and haram.}

      From your deep granular knowledge you appear to be an expert of sorts on the UK.

      What Europeans would you like Brown Pundits to interview? Scores of high quality guests are happy to speak to Brown Pundits. Feedback from intelligent nuanced viewers like you help in topic selection.

      Can you also share what broad buckets of topics greatly interest you? For example:
      —Education reform
      ——in the UK
      ——in India
      —Institution capacity building
      —Economic policy
      —Islamism
      —Muraqabah Sufism (including the Irfan strain)
      —Palestine Israel Friends Forever (PIFF)
      —Science intersection with religion
      —Reducing violent crime and hate crime

      0
      1. I am really more of a GNXP fan and read Steve Sailer’s site a lot more before it became what it is now. Deep articles on historical development, science, culture etc. are what I like.

        Good potential guests would include Hussain Kesvani, author of Follow Me Akhi: The Online World of British Muslims and editor at Mel magazine. He achieved a moment of internet fame by petitioning for the statue of Churchill in Parliament square to be replaced by a Gundam. He would offer a good perspective on what it is like trying to live as a fairly liberal, second generation immigrant western Muslim in a political environment that is quite mad.

        https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/jun/18/follow-me-akhi-hussein-kesvani-review-social-media-liberal-islam

        https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/xyexbd/home-coming-dartford

        I still follow Anatoly Karlin at unz com, he offers pretty entertaining takes on world affairs with emphasis on Russia and the major world powers.

        @shrikanth_kris (Hinduism and Indian culture) and @gypsy_heart6 (Middle Eastern religious traditions) on Twitter. I don’t know who they are in real life but pretty much all their posts are worth reading.

        @mohammedhanif, the writer of A Case Of Exploding Mangos. Would be good on literature and Pakistani political history.

        Cyril Almeida @cyalm , a Pakistani journalist and Rhodes scholar who won the International Press Freedom award after a nasty censorship tussle with the military.

        @YousufNazar who used to head emerging markets at Citibank. The lack of economic growth in Pakistan and Indian is going to have ramifications for decades to come and he knows a lot about the subject.

        0
    3. Lol @ Mirpuris are Kashmiris.

      (I’ve disabused many Mirpuris of this silly notion by just speaking two sentences of Kashmiri. It doesn’t take much more than that.

      Most of them do call themselves British Pakistanis – not that I give a toss either way)

      1+
      1. For God’s sake, you are very well aware that “Kashmiri” is used to refer to all residents of the former kingdom of Jammu and Kashmir not just to ethnic Kashmiris.

        0
    1. I as an H am honored an R1a has accepted my appropriated refrain as worthy.

      I shall sacrifice a thousand avocados and bathe in the ensuing sea of guacamole to celebrate such an auspicious day.

      A son of the skyfather has smiled upon. May the sky mother do so.
      May the jungle father continue to give me strength

      Jai Shree Ameen

      3+
  25. Usually, I don’t step into lobster fights, but come on man, @Saurav spend sometime learning your own culture so that you won’t be shocked that others are marginally less ignorant than you about it.

    Please pick up Aurobindo and skim through it.

    Sati Savithri had guts, intelligence and persistence to fight with the god of death and WIN. There are worse role models to pick if one needs an insult.

    1+
  26. @Dathang
    “fit”: 2.7042,
    “IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2”: 77.5,
    “RUS_Sintashta_MLBA”: 10.83,
    “Paniya”: 10,
    “IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1”: 1.67,

    Cool. So I would be like 33% AASI (counting 30% of my 77.5 is AASI) 11% Steppe and 56% Indus

    0
    1. Something like that, the AASI and non-AASI components might change once a proper proxy for AASI is discovered.
      I saw a south and central Asia breakdown on another source and it pinned Gujaratis at 50% NW_Indian_0%AHG (basically the non-AASI of IVC, probably combined Iran component and WSHG) on average so your result is in the range of variation. The Gujarati steppe in that breakdown was 11.2% on average and total simulated AASI components were 33.8% on average.

      Gujarati Brahmins on the other hand had a similar amount of non-AASI Indus, lower AASI and higher steppe on average.

      https://imgur.com/a/eq5uuAG

      0

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