Open Thread, 04/18/2020 Brown Pundits

65 Comments
ISLAM!!!

This is the thread where you can talk about whatever you want to talk about.

I am curious about how people view the lockdown and India’s response to, and experience, with COVID-19. Thoughts?

(also, you can talk about whatever so long as it’s not vulgar or spam)

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65 Replies to “Open Thread, 04/18/2020 Brown Pundits”

  1. For history buffs and those who seriously study The Final Pagan Generation, some additional facts as a continuation from the previous Open Thread:

    https://www.brownpundits.com/2020/04/11/open-thread-04-11-2020-brown-pundits/#comment-59508

    Emperor Galerius (305 to 311) born in Serdica, i.e. Serbica (today’s Sophia), Maxentius (306-312), Maximinus II (308-313), a committed pagan, engaged in one of the last persecutions of Christians, Constantius Chlorus – he ruled as Caesar from 293 to 305 and as Augustus from 305 to 306, Valerius Severus – was a Western Roman Emperor from 306 to 307, Constantius Chlorus was a Roman Emperor, he ruled as Caesar from 293 to 305 and as Augustus from 305 to 306.

    All of them and some others were also of Serbian origin.

    1. I feel pundits’ thirstiness for more truthful historical facts. And, really, a sharp never-sleeping pundit’s eye noticed a minor incorrectness. It wasn’t emperor Constantine’s mother who touched a part of cross where Jesus was crucified. It was his wife, Jelena, who had the same name as her mother in law. She was also a Serbian from the Adriatic island Hvar, now in Croatia. After that, the cross became a symbol of Christianity.

      I guess, the most pundits are surprised with a list of Serbian Roman emperors provided in this and previous Open Thread. For serious researches there are some key figures…

      There were, before the fall of the West Roman empire, 18 (one-eight) Serbian emperors and, in total, 40 (forty) Serbian emperors. Who knows these figures? Whose credibility is on the line? My for sure, but also the credibility of all Anglo-American and other writers and historians. If my assertion is wrong, it will be easily refuted by those who know. The same as in the – who were Aryans – case.

      Just an addition to the previous…Emperor Makelin changed the name of Roman Empire to – Serbian and Italian Empire!!! He was killed in one attentat in 486. His nephew Nepos inherited him for a short time. After him, a Serbian Dacian tsar Svevlad (located in today’s Romania) renewed the Empire. He sent his two sons, Ostroilo and Tocilo, to renew the empire. Tocilo went to Italy while Ostroilo established his palace in the city of Skadar (today’s Albania) and restored Illyric Serbia in 490. That was the beginning of the Serbian state on the ruins of West Roman Empire.

      De facto – Serbia was the legal successor of the West Roman Empire…. Stay tuned, more to come…

  2. Following are just some anecdotal rambling. I had a heart to heart with my mother’s uncle today. He is in his mid 80s and was a well read school teacher. I was disappointed/sad after having read Bertrand Russell’s views on Indian independence and our conversation was about feeling good about progress made by India. A few good points he told me were:

    1) His grandfather could not even count money or read and served as bonded labourer (maybe from hereditary debt) in Bundelkhand. He would get routinely whipped in public for trivial mistakes/delay in interest payment. Interest rates as high as 100 percent per annum were common until framing banks/cooperatives came about in 60-70s.

    2) General condition of women has improved many folds. Up untill 70-80s anemia, miscarriages, poor hygiene etc were the norm.

    3) His father was a member of Hindustan Socialist Party (Bhagat Singh’s group), hated Gandhi/Congress pacifism, served 2 years in jail for blowing up a small bridge while a British officer’s car was passing. British beat the crap out of him after capturing him. He reminded me of the multigenerational effort gone into giving me the opportunities I have and ‘demanded’ me to get better/stronger/successful.

    Reminds me of a film song Kgp’s director sang on our convocation, ‘Le aaye hain toofan se kishti nikal kar, iss dekh ko rakhna mere bacchon sambhal kar’

    1. Very inspiring!

      I think when the majority of Indians are empowered India can reach its full potential.

    2. Tbf to Bernard Russell not many would have given India a chance to succeed. Country far more “homogeneous” have failed or broken apart for less.

      1. I was especially disappointed with Russell’s (whose works I admire) support for al-Bakistanis, giving Chinese a say (as guarantors) in Indian independence process, general white-sahib attitude etc.

        Something interesting came up in our conversation. My mother’s uncle(henceforth grandfather) said that he felt similar when he read about gross racism that Darwin(whom he greatly admires) used to imply and write about. He mentioned that Hindu gods/godesses are shown with weapons perhaps implying that without strength no matter how good you (your national/civilizational values/ethos) were no one would respect you. Words he used were ‘ Kshama shobhati uss bhujang ko jiske mukh mein garal ho’ (mercy/forgiveness suits only the serpent who has venom).

        Finally, he shared a stunning story about religious life in India in the 50s. He had prayed very sincerely to Rama in the village temple for some favor in exam. His desired results did not happen and he got enraged at God(‘s idol). The dude actually went and locked himself inside the garbhagriha(sanctum sanctorum) of the temple with the Rama(+parivar idols). He accused, verbally abused and then beat the crap out of Rama with his slippers for having cheated him. Other people saw(heard?) the whole thing and he might have slightly damaged the idol’s nose. Stunningly he got away without any punishment by the resident saint (priest?) of the temple on the grounds (I might have missed details as I was laughing my ass off at this point) that my grandfather saw god in the idol and settled scores with his beloved Rama.

  3. Posting a question from the previous thread.

    I have a question for Razib if he is reading this: Is the Papuan and Polynesian yDNA K2b1 of a local Papuan origin or does it come from the Ami type Austronesian source?
    So far I am under the impression that the O in Polynesians are the only paternal lineage that they inherit from Austronesians.

  4. Arundhati Roy implies Modi government is planning final solution for Muslims like Nazis did for Jews on German TV…

    1. Recently had a long argument with a liberal Muslim friend on Arundhati Roy. He was gushing over one of her op-eds and I told him he’d be much better off not having her on his side.

      I seriously think people like her do more damage to community relations than good. Empty tawkers who’d rather have ‘solidarity’ than any tangible political give and take or problem solving.

  5. The beginning of demographic change. BJP adopting the Israeli Model

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.scroll.in/article/957948/slow-demographic-change-new-j-k-domicile-rules-draw-chorus-of-protests

    “The new rules replace “permanent residents” of the former state with “domiciles” of the new Union Territory – anyone who “who has resided for a period of fifteen years in the UT of J&K or has studied for a period of seven years and appeared in class 10th/12th examination in an educational institution located in the UT of J&K”. The children of such individuals would also be counted as domiciles.

    The order expands the definition further, to include the “children of those Central government officials, All India Services officers, officials of PSUs [public sector units]and autonomous body of central government, public sector banks, officials of statutory bodies, officials of central universities and recognised research institutes of Central government who have served in Jammu and Kashmir for a total period of ten years”.

    Finally, those registered as migrants by the relief and rehabilitation commissioner will also get domicile rights. So far, they are mainly Sikhs, Kashmiri Pandits as well as some Kashmiri Muslims who fled the Valley in the 1990s.

    But only the lowest level, non-gazetted government jobs are reserved for domiciles. Any Indian citizen would be eligible for the remaining gazetted and non-gazetted jobs.

    The home ministry order also amended the Jammu and Kashmir Property Rights to Slum Dwellers Act. References to “permanent residents” were deleted from the law, making it easier for non-local slum dwellers to gain property rights in Jammu and Kashmir.

    ‘Slow demographic change’
    “This is a textbook Israeli-model,” claimed Manan Ahmad, a law student in Srinagar. “While Kashmiris will have reservation in low-key jobs, the fact that all the top posts are open to every Indian means that we’ll be no less than their slaves. It’s the first step to Kashmir becoming a Palestine.”

    The domicile law, Ahmad said, was the government’s way of introducing “slow demographic change” without international censure. “When you talk about 15 years or 10 years of residing in Jammu and Kashmir, it essentially means that one day he/she will be a resident of Jammu and Kashmir,” he said. “Instead of encouraging a flood of non-J&K citizens into Jammu and Kashmir, they will do it slowly. The state always has time.””

    1. Adopt the “Israeli model” all you like. You will simply be despised by the international community just as Israel is despised.

      Settling non-Kashmiris into Occupied Kashmir is completely unacceptable. Just as Israel had no business settling their people in the West Bank.

    2. I think India should let kashmiris give as much freedom as it gives to any other state in India that ensures blossoming of the state culture & language. That will be a great advantage that is clearly not possible in Pakistan looking at not only the condition of kashmiri language but also other minority languages.
      If Indian govt. can help in bringing economic development to the region with cultural development left to the locals, it has a good chance of resolving the issue. A small number of naturalization after 15 years is not alarming. It will not affect demographics in a decade to an extent the kashmiri exodus did in in few months

      1. India’s tallest leader (Pandit Nehru) promised in front of the entire world that the Kashmiri people would not be tied to India against their will. Kashmir is a Disputed Territory and not just “any other state in India”. That’s the bottom line.

        1. Pakistan’s tallest leader Jinnah said we are making a secular Pakistan where hindus can live in peace and India and pakistan will be like US canada border.
          Sadly that could not be true even in his short lifetime after independence.

          1. Jinnah’s statements have nothing to do with Pandit Nehru’s promises in front of the entire world.

            Can’t find a way to ignore those promises now can you? You are on the losing side here morally and you just can’t deal with it.

          2. My quote was to highlight that your selective reading of your history gets you nowhere. India is losing morally as much as Pak.

            I am able to see the both sides of argument while esteemed history student like you keeps repeating the same few dialogues that suit their narrative and completely ignore the ones that come in the way of their narrative.

    3. Why would they not have the same rule as one for the rest of India or at least the same as other mountain states like Himachal???
      Modi is making the same mistake as the Congress party.

      I seriously doubt the economic/cultural development. The message should be that everyone is the same in the country. NO SPECIAL

  6. Settling non-Kashmiris into Occupied Kashmir is completely unacceptable. Just as Israel had no business settling their people in the West Bank.

    always weird to me how in certain circumstances shitlibs deploy BORDERS ARE REAL OK rhetoric 😉

    1. I neither know nor care what a “shitlib” is.

      Settling your own people on occupied territory is illegal according to international law. The West Bank is officially considered occupied by the entire world. While Kashmir is technically part of India, most people consider it to be disputed. Settling people from India proper into Kashmir is therefore not acceptable (and rightly resisted by the natives of the land).

      1. Tell that to your govt. which has since made much more significant changes in demographics of Pok including the far flung and sparsely populated areas of Gilgit & Baltistan .
        Since 1970 Pak is settling Punjabi sunnis in areas dominated by local Shias.
        It has gave away claim to a part of disputed territory to china as if it was theirs to begin with. And then China (which is champion in respecting international laws in itself) & Pak have audacity to comment on what India should do.
        Teach that international law to your govt. before preaching to others.

        1. Just because Pakistan has done something wrong doesn’t justify India doing the same.

          Come up with a better argument.

          1. Well I never justified anybody’s position. Just saying 3 countries involved in J&K , no one has any better moral position than other

          2. Pakistan’s army is not disappearing kashmiri men or raping kashmiri women. India’s army is. Azad Kashmir has not been under a communications blockade for months.

            Let’s not discuss “moral positions” because you will not win that argument.

          3. I already told my position. India has not flooded the region like Pak has and neither made deals about the territory of locals as you call it. People disappear anywhere in pakistan with slightest hint of challenge to army in a way not seen in India. No different in Pok.
            The statue quo in Pok and kashmir valley is different. The response from two countries therefore cannot be compared directly on specific actions.

            I have never claimed there were no excesses in Indian approach but we are not dealing with India being the rogue state in land of milk and honey. For the record I do not condone any excesses in kashmir or for that matter anywhere else and would like to see different approach taken as mentioned in other comment.

          4. Fundamentally, the people of Azad Kashmir and G-B don’t hate Pakistan like the people of IOK hate India. Otherwise, Pakistan would have had no issues blocking off AJK and G-B from the world.

            Most Kashmiri Muslims feel that Kashmir is a colony of Hindu India and want nothing to do with that country. Kashmiris on Pakistan’s side don’t feel the same about Pakistan.

          5. That is pakistani side of propoganda. Many people have different opinion. There are people who are with India, Pakistan, and wanting independence.
            You are conveniently side stepping now on the immoral and wrong stuff done by Pak against international law that you were preaching about. Keep the discussion on track

          6. It’s very easy to find out what the Kashmiri people want. India just has to hold a plebiscite and ask them. The only reason this has not been done is because India knows it will lose.

            Let’s see what’s really “Pakistani propaganda”. Btw, I come from an ethnically Kashmiri Muslim family. These are my people you are talking about.

          7. just trying to side step issues that dont suit your narrative. Not a word on demographic change or territory gift to china from someone who was preaching to Israel about international law.

            that my friend is your problem, BLATANT DOUBLE STANDARDS.

            Pakistan cannot change demographics in Pok and then in kashmir valley through insurgency and then cry about plebiscite. That ship has sailed.

            And pakistani propoganda affects even the brightest mind in pak, kashmiri ancestory is not antidote against it. See this
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aoYNQrOOu0

          8. Fine, let’s stop worrying about Pakistan or Indian propaganda.

            Ask the Kashmiri people what they want and agree to abide by that.

    1. I read that article in this morning’s paper. Thought it was interesting. There are some similar cases in my extended family where women from Agra have married their relatives in Karachi and become Pakistani.

  7. There is another historical ration to pundits who are running steam hot on this Orthodox Easter Day. Skimming recent comments, we found the name of Atilla.

    Atilla – the scourge of God. He is still not well researched but there are some proven facts…

    His title was – Great Kiev’s Knez (prince)! All his military commanders were Serbs, the most of them were Christian. He was tolerant toward religions. His father and brother had typical Serbian names – Ostoya and Vlada, which are still popular names in Serbia. Atilla was buried according to Serbian customs. He died and was buried in Belgrade on the mouth of the river Sava to Danube, just few meters from Belgrade’s downtown. The legend says that thousands of people were digging the parallel stream of Sava to change its natural stream. Atilla was buried in three caskets on the dry bottom of the natural stream of Sava river and after that, the river was returned to its previous stream. All his soldiers, wives, servants, and witnesses were ritually killed after burial.

    …I believe that this brief history crash course significantly advances pundits knowledge standing and will prove the superiority of CCU* drinking over their coca-cola counterparts across anglo-american world. (*cow-camel urin)

  8. https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/migrant-doctors-from-pakistan-urge-govt-to-let-them-join-indias-anti-covid-19-force/article31375451.ece
    300 odd Pakistani, Hindu refugee, medical doctors in India want to serve during pandemic without passing MCI exam, much harder USMLE equivalent for India, as without having citizenship they cannot appear for the said exam. (‘LoL! nice try!’ from someone who knows how soul crushing difficult but necessary this exam is with all the literally made in china doctors these days)

    But 300 MBBS doctors is a big loss to Pakistan. Especially in times like this.

  9. Indian Nobel Prize laureate about the Serbs in 1926: I love this people who have a warm heart that can excite

    (Google translated article from the national paper Politika in 1926)

    I love this people who have a spontaneous feeling, a warm heart that can excite. I feel like a bird that has two nests on two opposite shores. “I am happy to be in a country full of love,” said the great Indian writer, playwright and philosopher Rabindranat Tagore who visited Belgrade in 1926.

    In the evening of October 15, he first spoke in the new University building, and the next day at the University of Kolarac. On both occasions, a huge number of Belgraders gathered.

    – An ordinary worker came, who barely heard of the size and value of this poet of far India, and a serious scholar came to enrich his knowledge of Tagore and his personal impressions about him, Politika reported at the time.

    The Nobel Prize winner met with Bishop Nicholas and numerous intellectuals of Serbia, and on his departure he received as a gift a collection of folk crafts: a Serbian costume, in gold, made on Kosovo soil in the 18th century.

    Responding to bishop Nicholas’ talk, the great writer wrote, among other things, that he was extremely happy to see a people much different in their feelings from other Western nations.

    – We tremble in fear of that Europe that wants to separate man from God. Modern civilization has separated science from spirit. Anything that doesn’t draw on the power of the spirit is not pretty, it’s ugly. Power can be proud of a lion, a tiger, an elephant. And when man prides himself on strength, he is like an animal, Tagore concluded, referring to the moment of the world at that time.

  10. Telangana and Andhra Pradesh states are making English medium education compulsory replacing all Telugu medium government run schools. In an era where there is mounting evidence for pro mother language education I can’t believe these states run by monkeys are doing this turn around. Their excuse is jobs and access to knowledge. With that logic Chinese, Japanese, Koreans have neither jobs nor knowledge.
    The Muslims have failed to Arabize/Persianize/Turkicize India in 500 years and the British have failed to Anglicize India in 100 years. Our own leaders have completely anglicized us in less than 70 years. Language is THE most important part of child’s cognitive development and when you take that mother tongue away from a kid you’re doing a disservice to him. For me English is a skill but not a language. Just like I can write Python/C/C++ I can write English too that doesn’t mean I will start speaking in Python/C/C++. Don’t fall for the politics by Kancha Ilaiah or anybody. I was hoping that our govt will in fact make Telugu compulsory keeping some subjects in English. I say make all English Medium schools also teach at least three subjects in Telugu and the rest they can teach in Arabic/English or whatever. Technology is not at all accessible in Telugu, instead of making it easier to access internet/technology in Telugu or making efforts to make content in Telugu online govt is trying to bury the idea of knowledge creation in Telugu. I can’t type in Telugu and there are no easy Telugu keyboards and it’s pathetic and sad. Tomorrow Chinese will replace English as a global language so we will shift to Chinese? This is how we roll? Selling our soul/mother tongue to something impermanent? So sad that I am unable to express it in my ENGLISH words here.
    https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/news/andhra-pradesh-high-court-quashes-go-on-compulsory-english-medium-in-schools/article31346832.ece?fbclid=IwAR1FhsbpLMwVG1N0dsMxCmq4mntEwnQom5Akbozi0LKu4eOE5hOKv7MTOxI

    Though the post is about Telugu, it applies to all Indian languages.

    1. While I get where you are coming from I am not sure it is that simple. I am all for learning local language. I think more and more states are making that compulsory even for international schools in their state.

      On other hand the people who study in vernaculars have to switch over to English by time they attend any professional course (of course liberal arts can be exception) At that point these students are left with additional burden of comprehension and expression in English. That makes their life harder than others who are learning in English since long time. I dont see any way of getting tertiary education / working language changed to vernacular anytime in india.

      Additionally the topic here is about govt. schools in AP. Since they are directly under state govt. they end up being made instrument of state policy for language which is itself touchy subject. In MH if I am not wrong similar topics were discussed and opposed by language chauvinists /political parties. The counter claim was that the people supporting the local language as medium of instruction had their own kids going to English schools (for better opportunity I guess) and want poor people’s kids learning state language.

      Better option would be to have bilingual schools and make local language compulsory in all schools.

      Also slowly but surely Indians will be the biggest group speaking English in years to come. At that point it will have as much stake in it as anyone else.

    2. They should provide bilingual medium education — every student in AP should graduate fluent in Telugu and English. Education systems around the world are able to produce bilingual fluent children; it’s not too high a burden.

  11. @dravidarya,

    I hear you! Yogi Adityanath has also made such statements. Indic thoughtand culture will be gone completely soon.
    Somebody should write to the minister’s that post Covid, chinese will be the global masters and they should introduce instead. That should be take a long time in India. That will probably slow the process. 🤔

    1. And what exactly is wrong with an Islamic country promoting a show that portrays Islamic morality?

    2. @Saurav
      There is a whole TV-drama war going on between Saudi+UAE (Kingdoms of Fire) vs Turks (Ertugrul) with fatwas/bans being exchanged. I have following observations/ questions:

      1) Just look at the amazing production quality from both the sides. Bravo! I never thought Saudis/Turks could pull off such good CGI, action, set design, costumes but they have really done a great job.

      2) How does Pakistan get away with so much? They will poke their nose into Iran, Malaysia, Turks, Chinese and yet UAE gave them 3 billion loan (+3 billion in deferred oil) in the last one year alone. Saudis have given them much more. Are Arabs really that stupid to put up with such routine mischief?

      1. Well poking their nose is a big term. You are mixing showing up in some meethings and mouthing sweet nothings as policy. For all the talk Pakistan is still on Arab side rather than Iran/Turkey. The cost of Pakistan crossing over is too much for both Pak and Arabs. And of course the cost of keeping Pakistan on their side is what the arabs are willing 2 pay. One less enemy is always good if the opposite could mean spending even more money countering it. Iran with much less resources have given Arabs headaches already.

        Also deferred payment is still payment, much like chinese loans.

        1. Pakistani state uses three things very well: Foreign policy, Air Force and intelligence agencies.

          Looking at Middle Eastern mutual hatred makes me feel brotherly even towards Pakistan. What a mess these guys have created for themselves. Everybody hating everybody and even smaller players (Qatar) are no pushovers. I have been following up on Libya after a long time and it seems a partition is still on the tables for them. Yemen, Syria, Iraq (for Kurds), Somalia and Libya, odds are we might see another South Sudan in our lifetimes. Also reading about agricultural land grab in Sudan by Arabs+Pakistan.

        2. Pakistani state uses three things very well: Foreign policy, Air Force and intelligence agencies.

          Looking at Middle Eastern mutual hatred makes me feel brotherly even towards Pakistan. What a mess these guys have created for themselves. Everybody hating everybody and even smaller players (Qatar) are no pushovers. I have been following up on Libya after a long time and it seems a partition is still on the tables for them. Yemen, Syria, Iraq (for Kurds), Somalia and Libya, odds are we might see another South Sudan in our lifetimes. Also been reading about agricultural land grab in Sudan by Arabs+Pakistan, capture of Socotra island (used to be part of Bombay Presidency if I remember correctly) by UAE, Saudis buying sovereign territory from Egypt. All this on top of the regular Israel/Palestine/Jordan/Lebanon mess. Too many interesting things keep happening in and on periphery of the Arab world.

        3. But Pakistan manages the IMF/WB well, these loans are a free meal. Even if they pay 2% lesser than other options (China) that too is 30 million every year saved on 1.5 billion loan.

          Plus they have extracted billions in aid from USA and unbelievably even USSR (the big defunct steel mill near Karachi). I have to admit they do have some talent in the negotiation room. But in a wicked way this makes me happy that Pakistan will never learn fiscal responsibility and will keep running in this petty cycle of loans to pay loans and populist spending like Argentina, all the time thinking of themselves as quite smart.

          1. As Omar Bhai says they are not naive. At any given point of time there will be someone who is willing to pay the money. The point is what happens when they come back for the money?

            Will they be understaning like US was? Will they be ruthless as China is rumoured to be? Will there be light wrap on knuckles as Arabs have been? Depends.

            IMF loans are of course free money and any country including India can avail if they want. Its not rocket science to deal with them, and all Pak Govts inclding incompetent ones have got IMF deal around the same intrest rate. They have a cookie cutter soloution for everyhting.

            Also for their talent on the negotiating table
            https://tribune.com.pk/story/2203143/2-umar-wants-explosive-power-sector-inquiry-made-public/

            “For instance, the inquiry report revealed that the $1.7 billion power transmission line project of the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) was 234% expensive than a similar project in India with better technology.”

      2. Pakistan state policy is about acting like a jilted lover. If you dont give me this I could move to other camp.
        The same is case with americans too. I imagine they always have gun pointed either to Afghans or their own head during these negotiations.
        All the while their other hand consistently points gun at India. Whatever happens we will be fired at !

  12. I enjoy watching Turkish TV shows. They often have better story line than desi tv and are well made. Acting generally seem to be more authentic and down to earth compared to desi tv shows- that are often melodramatic, have over the top costumes. Story lines are just brain numbing.
    Turkish tv shows seem more like Hollywood with desi stories mixed in.
    I think it has more to do with the language. I have seen most countries in middle east have their own native language as the main language unlike India which has English now as the main language of people. Since population is generally not proficient, creative thought is stifled.
    Middle Eastern countries are not hobbled by this disadvantage.

    1. Korea, Pakistan, and Turkey make watchable TV shows in Asia. But I never knew Saudis+UAE could pull off such good production design.

      Indian TV shows are garbage, actually, I can’t think of anything on Indian television that is not garbage.

  13. This is not a Pakistan thing. You give Pak too much credit.

    Global Left has allied with Islamist and Islamist sympathizers. They are a powerful ally in terms of numbers and resources from oil money (eg. Al Jazeera). Racial diversity also helps with figures like Ali and Malcolm X to Khabib and Hasan Mihnaj. From stories like the friendship of Bilal and Muhammed to the aggressive Black Power civil rights movement in the US, these forces how a powerful arsenal to fill the armory of their narrative and to weaponize when necessary. When they move to Western liberal democracies, they are willing participants in post modernist oppressors vs. oppressed narrative. It suits the interests of the covert Jihad. Islamist sympathizers in moderate’s clothes who speak the tongue of educated class.

    Of course not even close to all Muslims are like this. But the Left never runs out of participants from Medhi Hassan to Omar Ilhan. And these expert propagandists even exploit youth naivete in their communities with victim narrative.

    That is how the hijab, a symbol of how men in a particular society mandate women hide their external sexuality so as to not “provoke” the “animalistic” nature of men, became a symbol of identity not piety, one of empowerment not oppression.

    Jai Shree Ameen

    1. Fair points. I’ll try to bring Indian into this mix –

      In my limited (but growing) understanding of these things, the western left is still probably acting from (in their mind) a position of fairness and maybe some mild patronisation towards muslim minorities in their midst. In their mind, the muslim immigrant in the west is to be seen independent of the baggage of ISIS/Pakistan/Taliban and as an equal citizen. Which one can argue is fair, but when confronted with events like Charlie Hebdo or the Sharia brigades in East London they would double down on their stand rather than investigate the root cause of these sort of incidents. This is aided by various forces such as vocal muslim minorities, gulf petro$$$ and the fact that muslims around the world have taken on the mantle of a global oppressed underclass, never mind how true or false that is.

      Since it’s a democracy, India is inevitably held to higher standards than say theocratic Pakistan or Iran or authoritarian China. Hence the hindu right doesn’t get a free pass, unlike these forces. There’s also a latent British partiality towards Pakistan, maybe as a means of atoning for the partition. There’s no hindu civic activism to speak of in the west, since most hindus keep their heads down and get on with it, and as long as hinduism is tied to india and not recognised as a global religion, it will always be seen as synonymous with poverty, chaos and exoticism and not taken seriously. My two cents

      1. “There’s also a latent British partiality towards Pakistan, maybe as a means of atoning for the partition”

        But what are they atoning for though? They supported Partition and it happened.

        I think its good that Hinduism is not a world religion. With greater presence comes greater responsibility , and scrutiny. Which i am not sure Hindus are ready for.

        1. “With greater presence comes greater responsibility , and scrutiny”

          What are you on about, bro?

      2. The British are not atoning for anything. That is not how foreign policy works.

        If they seem partial towards this country or that in their dealings it is just politics as usual, never mind historical wrongs.

      1. it is. I have only had a vegetarian bootleg version in hyderbad. But I am sure real one tastes very good. Everyone says so.

      2. Yeah, i second Kabir. Its the best. I have had only the Karachi version though, not the punjabi one.

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