Lakshmi


I’m spending a lot of time reading about the Corded Ware for my series on the steppe. The Corded Ware is a culture that appeared that abruptly in Northern Europe between 2900 and 2800 BC, covering a vast territory of Central and Eastern Europe in a century. The name derives from the unique marks left on their pottery.

For decades scholars have argued whether they were an indigenous development out of the farmers who occupied this region for thousands of years, or whether there was a mass migration out of the steppe. More realistically, there was a synthetic position between at some point. Perhaps the farmers were influenced by a few elite bands migrating out of the steppe?

Today due to ancient DNA we know more. The Corded Ware culture in its mature phase is about 70% Yamnaya and 30% farmer. The farmer’s ancestry almost certainly comes exclusively through women. The Y chromosomes of the farmers were G2. There is very little of that within a few generations. It is almost all R1a.

But that leaves us with the question: where did the new pots come from? The answer is straightforward: the men from the steppe took wives from the farmers. They killed their fathers and brothers and took them to their homesteads to bear them children. These women knew how to make pots because they did not come from nomadic backgrounds. They adapted their techniques to making pots that exhibited marks that made them resemble the baskets that their husbands brought in their wagons.

The miracle of the immediate emergence of a new pottery technique is due to the fact that the nomads didn’t learn to work in clay. Their wives already had the skill.

Why is this posted on this weblog? That’s a question that does have an answer…

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66 Replies to “Lakshmi”

  1. The answer is straightforward: the men from the steppe took wives from the farmers. They killed their fathers and brothers and took them to their homesteads to bear them children.

    Rude. I have always felt the world would be a better place with fewer manoids.

  2. The yDNA of the farmer ancestors of Corded Ware was almost entirely I2. The G2 had been almost entirely replaced by the middle neolithic WHG resurgence which saw a very male mediated WHG input into the farmers.

      1. No problem 🤠. There is more detail on the admixture info in Mathieson et al 2017/8.

  3. very true. Steppe heavy S Asians are disproportionately a product of some serious cucking, given ratios of W vs. E Eurasian, Y vs. Mt . razib jokes about R1a. But hilarious to see all of the weird real pride about it among some.

      1. It isn’t the opposite because since the cucks don’t reproduce, there aren’t any descendants of theirs today. Reality of it all is that bragging about this stuff is dumb in and of itself. But then going and specifically seriously bragging about rapist great great grand daddy is even weirder, within the paradigm.

        1. cucks didn’t leave behind too many R1a descendants, generally they did find wives and left a genetic imprint. so basically its exact opposite of what you are implying.

          Besides, everyone alive today has a 100% probability of having rapist great grandaddies somewhere along the chain, so not sure why that’s a big deal to you.

          1. The indigenous were killed and supplanted with their wives raped by invaders. There were really no cucks to begin with because no one group en masse raised children that wasn’t theres.

            Anyway, glorifying ancestry in general is dumb the way these steppe supramacists do it. Ignoring their majority non steppe ancestry and or denigrating it by acting like less steppe folks are somehow inferior is even dumber, especially when it means glorifying rapist ancestors.

            The reality is that it should just be treated as history. There is no reason to glorify or denigrate either way. Just funny when glorification works out the way it does for the steppe heavy folk

        2. @thewarlock

          “The indigenous were killed and supplanted with their wives raped by invaders.”

          Geez man. You crazy kids with your Game of Thrones fantasies. There is zero evidence for that type of scenario. Zilch. Nada.

          Look we get it. The Aryans were intrusive to South Asia. They came from Afghanistan, and before that even further north in Central Asia, and before that Eastern Europe was their ultimate homeland.

          And yea they were violent. Culturally they probably resembled the Pashtuns of today and other similar tribal warrior peoples still left on earth. So no peaceniks or whatever.

          But genetics-wise, no proof that they committed genocide, or raped on a massive level. In fact, the data indicates the opposite when it comes to rape.

          An example to reflect on. We know that they was no violent incursion on the BMAC. Both archaeology and aDNA finds prove it. Yet people in former BMAC territory are now like 50% Steppe, speaking of the Iranic pops. It’s complicated stuff.

          And there was a civilization in Central Asia for them to contend with, a civilization they had no role in diminishing. But there was no “civilization” left in northwestern India for the Aryans to commit genocide against. They entered a vacuum. A wasteland. Nothing much to conquer.

      2. Re the word ” Cuck ”
        The thing with most nicknames we dole out, or labels we assign, is that they tend to say more about us than the people we’re describing. How we see people and the terms we use to dismiss or devalue them is much more revelatory than their behaviour – it’s the biggest tell of all about what kind of person you must be. The insult has to be something you would hate to be called yourself, the worst thing you could think of – it exposes your own doubts and fears.

        –By Justin Myers, The Guyliner

    1. Essentially all migrations into South Asia after the modern homo sapiens arrival were male biased including the Iran component. It isn’t just limited to the west, but also the east with the Munda people. The list could also include the hypothetical 30K year old one from Levant since H looks out of place for an east Eurasian lineage.

  4. “Steppe heavy S Asians are disproportionately a product of some serious cucking”

    Hmm, you sure about that? Some of the Hindu Jats are around a whopping 40% steppe, and yet they have very little R1a. They’re mainly L, which is a local West Eurasian variant.

    And there’s a lot of steppe mtdna in Pakistan (especially north).

    It’s the non-Jats Indians with only 10% autosomal steppe and 40% R1a that were cucked. So I guess people like you.

      1. Indic Pak I should say. Iranic part is diff and skews results. I have seen some NW Pak Gujar paper w/ mtDNA haplo M at only 45%. So yes, maybe on the frontier, it skews away from absolute majority not being M

        I also find it funny that this type of Steppe dick measuring is not present among Europeans. Their male farmer lineages went through an arguably even worse population supplantation in some parts. Like Razib said, it must be a desi psyche thing to be so into and drawing so much pride from origins, rather than one’s own achievements.

  5. And there’s a lot of steppe mtdna in Pakistan (especially north).

    which paper are you talking about? i saw what with 8%. is that “a lot”?

    1. I know; I was trolling to see, if a certain “west eurasian” dick measuring caricature would show up. It did ;). Funniest part is the already initiation of lies/exaggeration of mtDNA proportions and making up stories about my origins with the “people like you” comment. The interesting thing is under exaggeration of R1a. IT is 28.5% in Jats so not much lower than the 38% of L. Surprised, he tried to downplay it. Usually, these types talk about it in more bigly terms.

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5611447/

      An ode dedicated to the caricature

      My R1a bring all the trolls to the yard
      My steppe is higher than yours
      My aasi is lower than yours
      My mt DNA is more west eurasian than yours

      lmfao.

      1. 28.5% is all R combined including R2. While his numbers are off, he is correct about the R1a : Steppe ratio being lower than in most other Indians. Why this came to be is unknown. Some think that R1a is not the only lineage mediating steppe ancestry and maybe L from BMAC was involved. But that cannot be tested until there is a good tally of ivc era ydna. An alternative is checking for differences in steppe autosomal DNA vs x chromosome contributions in various Indian castes.

        1. @ DaThang @ Razib

          In TN, ruling castes (non-Brahmins) have an approx. 30% distribution of R (1a1 & 2). For lower castes, it is 20%. Watkins 2008.

          The socio-cultural affinity skews in a different manner – the ruling castes historically venerate Shiva and Skanda (Murugan). Whereas the lower castes worship Indra. Very recently, the NDA government grouped via notification – 7 SC subcastes into one called as Devendra Kula Vellalar (literally Farmers of Indra) – on a sustained political campaign.

          Do you think that this is a clear signature of R1a’s presence in India from a much earlier period preceding the formation of Vedic pantheon? Indra is a formidable Vedic god while Shiva/Rudra is not. This is an inversion of the accepted settler paradigm.

          1. I personally don’t think so because there has been a lot of time for traditions and groups to align and re-align themselves.

        2. @DaThang

          Actually not! Some of the historical lores for the communities are foundational for their identity. If you are thinking they switched their deities just to create a curve-fit gap……..

          1. Traditions are more than just deities, one example is Islam which seems to have been propped up somewhat more recently than what is traditionally thought. That was only some 1200 years ago. India, South India in this case on the other hand had a lot longer, especially if you consider the 5000 years since neolithisization in order to construct ways for traditions to evolve and change over time. Later contacts with Indo-Aryans would have utilized these existing networks for the changes.

    1. I know; I was trolling to see, if a certain “west eurasian” dick measuring caricature would show up. It did ;). Funniest part is the already initiation of lies/exaggeration of mtDNA proportions and making up stories about my origins with the “people like you” comment. The lie down playing R1a in a certain group is interesting too. 28.5% R1a vs. 38% L isn’t exactly small or majority like respectively claimed by the fool above.

      Also, all of this in proportions so there is a presence of many types in many groups in non-negligible amounts. The Kalash, who certain clowns love to brag about, are 20% H, the most ridiculed haplo by the steppe supremacist crowd, which does have some pretty solid overlap w/ birdari supremacists.

      An ode dedicated to the caricature

      My R1 bring all the trolls to the yard
      My steppe is higher than yours
      My aasi is lower than yours
      My mt DNA is more west eurasian than yours

      lmfao.

  6. Some of the Hindu Jats are around a whopping 40% steppe,

    i’m mildly skeptical of these numbers. seem a bit high. though the jats do seem to have a bit more steppe than other groups

    1. I think it doubles as a two answer post. Also answers why India’s material culture remained local/local derived after the migration.

  7. where does Laxmi , The Laxmi, come in
    is there a feminine touch on corded ware artistry?

  8. I think Laxmi is a much better shorthand for ancient mtDNA lines than Eve. The Seven Daughters of Eve was such a “smash and grab” cultural move.

  9. Razib,
    Is there any pattern in the distribution of y dna groups between Vishnu/Lakshmi worshippers and shaivites?

    1. Interestingly Dravidians claim shiva more than NIs .Yeah there are some shiva centerd zone in east UP and ,UK, but elsewhere is less .See the jyotirlings map.

      1. NI dont claim Shiva, because there is nothing to claim here. It would be akin to Arabs ‘claiming’ Mohammed. People who try to claim are usually the ones, who know they are the on slippery grounds.

        On the Jytorilinga question , i wouldn’t put that much emphasis on that (even though out of 12 only 2 are in ‘Dravidian’ regions, so not sure what u are talking about) . In the North, Shiva is just out-worshipped by Ram/Krishna, that need not mean someone can ‘claim’ them. LOL

        1. “In the North, Shiva is just out-worshipped by Ram/Krishna”

          Why do you say this? I think the front facing principle deity might change between Krishna, Rama, Durga, Hanuman (in that order of popularity, many a times mutually exclusive) but almost all temples have Shivling and Ganesh. You cannot put Lingam on the main altar due to its design and function.

          Hindus in the north venerate Hanuman much more than Kannadigas or other Southerners despite his Kannada origin story. I also don’t understand why Parashurama is completely left out. Mallus and Kannadigas should especially venerate their local Vishnu avatara. Wasted opportunity I’d say, look at Bengalis and Rajasthanis who make such a big deal out of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Khatu-Shyam respectively.

          Only twice in my whole life I have seen a temple whose principle deities were Lakshmi-Narayana. In my opinion Vishnu is worshiped far more in Southern Temples.

        2. The point being Ram/Krishna are the major dieties of North, notwithstanding shivling being present in each of their temples.The main god of the temple is what matters. There will be a shivling in Ram temple being made, would you call it a Shiva temple?

          On Hanuman being Kannadiga, i think most Northeners are ignorant on his Southern origins. He does not map like the way u would map Ayodhya, Kashi or Mathura. So Hanuman becomes a more geographic-neutral diety.

          Vishnu isnt worshipped in the North, baecause its avtars are already. Its like calling Pakistan, North west South Asia, even though we know it was India.

          P.S : Mallus do worship their local Vishnu Avtar. Its called K(ommie)-rishna

        3. @Saurav

          Man, you are spouting arrant nonsense while mixing up religious and political imageries. Do you even read anything?

          The central story of Shiva’s primacy in the Hindu Trinity (Shiva-Vishnu-Brahma fight) takes place in a Tamilnadu town. This is the town that symbolises the column of fire that Shiva represents. Shivaji, the Maratha made it a point to visit this town during his Southern sojourn. This town also hosts one of the most massive temple complexes patronised by all the three major dynasties in the last 1000 years – Cholas, Vijayanagara and Marathas. Try to find out which town is this. It is mentioned in Skanda Purana.

          The Jyotirlingas are not geographically separated in the North – South axis but the West-East axis. 9 out of 12 Jyotirlingas are to the West of the 80 Longitude line. This is in line with the archaeological theory that Siva (Pasupati) was a major IVC God – whose followers spread in that longitudinal axis to Gujarat, Maharashtra, Karnataka and TN.

          In case you didn’t know this, all the head priests at major Nepal and UP Siva temples are always deputed from a South Indian Brahmin priest lines.

          Kashi Viswanath was rebuilt by Ahalyabai Holkar and now Varanasi is being modernized by Modi – both Western Indians with long memories of Siva worshipping.

          Saurav – your confidence in ignorance is frightening. I will give you more gyan about Shiva than your family ever possessed in the last 1000 years.

        4. If only this zeal would be shown 2 fight their own Dravidian cohorts, then perhaps Hinduism would have been in better shape in their lands. But since they cant fight their own, they fight N-Indians. LOL

          Also you don’t have to worry abt my Gyaan on Hinduism bro. We invented this religion, before Brahmins from our area took it to ur lands.

          1. Saurav…You are the classic BIMARU bum pretending to be a philosopher, mate. You actually think Hinduism was “invented” in UP and Bihar!! Haha, I can understand your need to rationalize like this. No achievements other than cucking for the last 1000 years.

            Come over someday to my place in the South. I will show you people without poverty and temples without mosques on top. We have carried you for the last 1000 years and we will do so for the next 1000 years. We are Krishna – we have the intelligence, the wit and the wealth. Even the colour 🙂 You are Sudama – pretending to be equal. It’s ok. Just don’t be foul mouthed about it.

          2. LOL, even the Pakistanis don’t suffer this degree of delusions wrt Islam. Its alright. Watching u folks makes me believe there are some islands of Hinduism left in those commie-Dravidian lands.

            And always remember where was Krishna born…

          3. “….. remember where Krishna was born.”

            That’s easy, Saurav. There is a mosque there now. You provide the best clown comedy ever……cucks pretending to be alpha males.

    2. @Bhumiputra @Anurag Sharma

      You make interesting comments that are close to my heart – in fact they have been driving my long standing personal conviction against AIT. My community’s written history goes back to the 10th century with two of the 63 Nayanar Saivite saints. We were also part of the Aihole trading group and were classified during the Chola Imperial period as Idangai (metal working, artisans and merchants).

      The oral history goes back a bit further – into the depths of time. Shiva sent nine hosts of men. Skanda or Murugan – Shivaś son, was the leader of one of the hosts. These nine hosts of men killed so many Asuras that earth was depopulated. Then Shiva appeared and ordered that no more killings be carried out for a hundred generations.

      I am also R-Z93 and from 23andme’s DNA relative finder, I can also see matches to other members of my community. Rough sampling shows that R dominates, with J2 and L/L1 following very closely.

  10. You know Razib – the word for Mother in Marathi is Aai which is related to older words in Dravidian languages.

  11. @Ugra

    “I also find it funny that this type of Steppe dick measuring…”

    Why did you use (more than once in this discussion thread) this expression? Are you implying Steppe guys had “it” bigger than, let’s say, AASI guys? Have you some personal or statistical knowledge of that? Is that the reason why some AASI-genes rich Indian males don’t want to hear about Steppe-genes rich males invading India in the hoary past? Kind of jealousy of their bigger “size”? Just curious about your “dick” association…

    1. Google “dick measuring” on urban dictionary. Are you that dense lmfao? It is a figure of speech. I am shocked you didn’t pick up on that. I am pretty sure you also didn’t understand Razib’s insinuation via the title of this piece, until Dathang pointed it out. But good on you for reading into it and thinking about phalluses.

  12. @thewarlock, @Ugra

    “Google ‘dick measuring’ on urban dictionary. Are you that dense lmfao? It is a figure of speech…”

    I was, of course, aware that’s an English-slang figure of speech, but there may be some unconscious motivations for him to use that phrase in connection with “competition” and “boasting” among South Asian males for who is more AASI and who is more Steppe.

    I mean, AASI are defined as “Andamanese-related” in most of recent genetic papers, so they must somehow have looked like modern Andamanese. Modern Indians who don’t bear Steppe genes must be genetically more similar to the Andamanese than to Steppe people, am I right? This, in *all* their body parts, whose development is inescapably codified by genes. Then, regarding his “Steppe vs. AASI dick measuring” obsession, one may infer the situation “down there” to be like this:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DsqeXpGVYAAyPms.jpg

    https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/EA_As-Portman-B28-4

    https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/EA_As-Portman-B28-19

    https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/EA_As-Portman-B29-21

    (photos of Andamanese males taken by the infamous Maurice Portman)

    Nice guys, but as regards as their – uh – “size”: ! So bad!

    If modern AASI-genes rich Indians are like these Andamanes guys “down there”, I understand why Ugra ji (who may be genetically mostly AASI) feels outraged by “Steppe vs. AASI dick measuring”. There is, indeed, no comparison with Steppe-genes rich guys! (Just search on the Internet for some photos of East European guys…) He must be jealous of them! That must be the real reason behind his thorough rejection of the very idea of a Bronze-Age Steppe-people immigration into South Asia! :^) :^) :^) :^)

    1. @Francesco Brighenti

      You are mis-attributing thewarlock’s comments to me. Perhaps you need to enter an eyesight measuring contest!!

      1. He is too low IQ to engage with further on these types of discussions. Look at how he “interprets” the research study below. Look at the type of data he tries to refer to. The guy isn’t even a good troll. This no longer even funny. It’s the equivalent of beating a mentally handicapped person in an argument. There was no point in arguing to begin with. I should have just offered to refer him to support services from the beginning. Alas, I fed the ignoramus, likely low intellectual potential, troll. Sad.

    2. When did I ever reject the idea of Bronze Age Migration into India. I am not an “out of india theory” proponent. Do not straw man. I am merely against the types of S Asian racial hierarchies either insinuated by or directly stated by so many and the societal representations we have of those, manifested in stuff like the skin color advertisements. Seriously dude, learn to read.

      I am starting to think you might actually have vision or serious reading comprehension issues. I wrote this in literally the same thread. Do you need a learning specialist and ophthalmologist as well? I can directly refer you to those too.

      “The indigenous were killed and supplanted with their wives raped by invaders. There were really no cucks to begin with because no one group en masse raised children that wasn’t theres.

      Anyway, glorifying ancestry in general is dumb the way these steppe supramacists do it. Ignoring their majority non steppe ancestry and or denigrating it by acting like less steppe folks are somehow inferior is even dumber, especially when it means glorifying rapist ancestors.

      The reality is that it should just be treated as history. There is no reason to glorify or denigrate either way. Just funny when glorification works out the way it does for the steppe heavy folk”

      1. //“The indigenous were killed and supplanted with their wives raped by invaders. There were really no cucks to begin with because no one group en masse raised children that wasn’t theres.//

        This is not how it works. If Steppe guys killed all the local males (ignoring the fact that its not even possible), the local male lines would be extinct.

        Reality is, the locals simply went about their own lives like they have for thousands of years accepting an exchange from AASI masters to Steppe ones, while Steppe males settled and took local wives as conquerors, in marriage or as concubines..

        This cuck steroretype only exists in the minds of Hindu Nats who think Muslims cucked them in the past and are still cucking them today (all these recent laws against love jihad is just proof of that idea manifesting itself)

        1. Sort of. I get what you mean. Then again,there is Y DNA diversity in upper castes too. Per some data, only 27% of upper caste males throughout India are even R1a. Yes there are dominance trends. But I do concede that the story is more of a colorful mosaic than it is some black and white painting.

          Hindu Nats contest that Islamic rulers committed actions that amounted to the death and rape of millions over time and a lot of financially and persecution incentivized conversion in the subcontinent. The thing is that many invaders do this type of shit.

          But the relative “foreigness” of the intial wave of Islamic rulers, both in their phenotype and also genotype, along with acknowledgement among all sides of this (the Central Asian Islamic Invaders looked down upon the “black Hindus”) you do have a tapestry that is religously infused but also racially so, one that comes off as particulalry foreign to the native dharmic sentiments of the subcontinent as well as commonly understood general racial bond among its inhabitants, one insufficient to be considered the same people, but one sufficient enough to be considered within the general same group.

          The fact that many Muslim S Asians, especially more radical/supremacist ones, identify with this relatively more foreign abrahamic philosophy, one that is highly confessional, has built-in politisization, and is extremely aggressive, but also either highlight straight up falsified or extreme minority ancestry that is akin to the initial Central Asian wave, in place of emphasizing the vast vast majority identical ancestey on average (when controlled for region and caste), also tends to bother Hindu Nats.

  13. @Ugra

    “Wondering why you addressed it to me….”

    My apologies to you, Ugra; I have confused you with thewarlock, who here on BP referred to a presumed “Steppe (or West Eurasian) dick measuring” syndrome affecting certain modern Indians (i.e. those who follow population genetic debates) in connection with “pride from origins”. Pride of what? Sometimes people on BP have mentioned lighter skin, for example, but I have facetiously raised another question concerning this alleged “pride” (or lack thereof) which involves kind of a Freudian “penis envy” – see at https://tinyurl.com/3u75rvnf .

    1. lmfao if you claim that you aren’t familiar with the degree of trolling on a lot of forums and the amount of hardcore racialism in the online space that is present among certain groups disproportionately, groups that enjoy citing how steppe and R1a they are, there are only three possibilities:

      1. You haven’t been around long enough and haven’t been paying attention.
      2. You know this but are willfully ignoring it for your own convenience.
      3. You are stupid.

      There is some evidence of third based on the types of things you have posted thus far and you totally misunderstanding what “dick measuring” means in a colloquial sense, even after I explained it. You were confused to the point of going on a online penis image search and finding not one but 5 pictures, probably among the hundreds you scrolled through for who knows what actual reason.

      heck even Razib gets trolled by these racialists

      https://www.brownpundits.com/2020/01/02/intra-subcontinental-insults-are/

  14. It is a well-known (and despicable) fact that newspaper matrimonial advertisements in India are traditionally replete with requests for brides with a light skin – a perfect example of “deep psychosocial motives” illustrating some Indian males’ longing for boasting about a wife with “Aryan” (i.e. not “Brown”) origins. Well, if equal rights for men and women will be effectively implemented in future India, I am afraid that, based on what I have previously written about “Steppe” vs. “AASI” penis size, that Indian newspapers will soon become filled up with matrimonial advertisements by young ladies looking for prospective bridegrooms having an equally “Aryan” origin, but in this case NOT JUST because they are supposed to have a lighter skin. After all, equal right of choice is equal right of choice! :^)

  15. Another piece of evidence for what I’m saying:

    chrome-distiller://06d204d4-7d8f-44a3-8217-6393c6dd277b_4f0684339a2b8e6754f48627a0b0c643138903e802fadc849472cdefbb0e29f2/?title=BBC+News+-+Condoms+%27too+big%27+for+Indian+men&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbc.co.uk%2F2%2Fhi%2Fsouth_asia%2F6161691.stm

    1. Because you want to engage in actual “dick measuring,” here is some real data.

      The onge are used as only a proxy for AASI. We don’t have pure AASI samples. The split between onge and AASI was some time ago. The BBC “study” from 2006 isn’t well regarded in the literature at all. It didn’t go through any scientific processes to be published in any sort of reputable journal.

      Regardless, here is an actual study from a scientific journal, The International Journal on Impotence Research, on men from Kerala from 2007. Kerela has relatively more AASI men compared to much of the steppe chauvinist heavy regions.

      Briefly, 500 men were sampled. And there was no difference between mean erect penis length in the study from mean erect penis length in the US and globally, based on the data in the literature. Next time you want to troll, try a little harder.

      https://www.nature.com/articles/3901569.pdf?origin=ppub

      “This study was conducted in Kerala, South India.
      Five hundred men, age ranging from 18 to 60 years
      were randomly selected from the sexual dysfunction
      clinic run by the principal investigator and outpatient clinic of the urology department at Medical
      College, Calicut, Kerala. The study was IRB
      approved and informed consent was taken from
      the subjects. All the subjects who were willing to
      participate in the study have undergone clinical
      evaluation. Individuals with congenital or acquired
      genital abnormalities were excluded. Finally, 301
      subjects were included in the study.”

      “Reports on mean erected length are available only
      from USA,1 Jordan7 and Israel.9 Erected length
      obtained in the present study (13.01 cm) does not
      differ significantly from the mean erected length
      reported by Wessells et al.1 from USA (12.89 cm),
      but the finding reported from Israel9 (13.6 cm) is
      significantly higher. The mean value reported from
      Jordan7 (11.8 cm) is found to be significantly low.
      Bondil et al.10”

      I am glad you had fun looking up so many pictures of naked men and scouring the internet for any inkling of “data” form an “official” source to back up your trolling. If anyone has any sort of “penis envy” or obsession, it is you. If you email me, I can pretty easily refer to a urology and/or psychiatry clinic, if you’d like. I know some good attendings personally.

    2. Because you want to engage in actual “dick measuring,” here is some real data.
      The onge are used as only a proxy for AASI. We don’t have pure AASI samples. The split between onge and AASI was some time ago. The BBC “study” from 2006 isn’t well regarded in the literature at all. It didn’t go through any scientific processes to be published in any sort of reputable journal.
      Regardless, here is an actual study from a scientific journal, The International Journal on Impotence Research, on men from Kerala from 2007. Kerela has relatively more AASI men compared to much of the steppe chauvinist heavy regions.

      Briefly, 500 men were sampled. And there was no difference between mean erect penis length in the study from mean erect penis length in the US and globally, based on the data in the literature. Next time you want to troll, try a little harder.

      https://www.nature.com/articles/3901569.pdf?origin=ppub

  16. Read better the article you have posted (which was published in 2007, but there are many later studies on this topic worldwide). It concludes: “There are significant differences in the mean penile length and circumference of Indian [i.e. Kerala] sample compared to the data reported from other countries.” I don’t care about the fact that “erected length obtained in the present study (13.01 cm) does not differ significantly from the mean erected length reported by Wessells et al. from USA (12.89 cm);” indeed, the population of the USA is a mix of different human genetic strains. I was talking about Europe and the Europe-derived Bronze Age Steppe peoples, and I pointed out to you this map: https://tinyurl.com/3u75rvnf (look at the yellow and orange areas in Europe).
    I am neither “stupid” nor a “racist”, as you suggested in an earlier post of yours in this thread, and I have my own convictions about what leads a section of either desi or NRI males to “hate” the very idea that a people from outside of South Asia, ultimately of eastern European origin, immigrated into the Greater Panjab region during the Late Bronze Age, bringing in new genes and a new culture/religion. Some hypotheses:
    1) You (and your ideological comrades) “hate” their lighter skin, tallness, more robust constitution, and even – as I am currently arguing – bigger penis size when compared with those of the Andamanese-related AASI.
    2) You (etc.) “hate” their presumably superior military skills (horses & chariots) because your psychologically deeply embedded Hindu nationalism rejects the very hypothesis that “India” (a non-existent national entity in the Bronze Age) was “invaded” by “foreigners”.
    3) You (etc.) “hate” the very idea that native AASI/“Indus periphery” women married those “Aryan” foreigners and bore them children. There may have been some advantages in celebrating such mixed marriages such as ensuring themselves husbands who were “superior” to them in magico-religious practices (their mastery of mantravidya and of sacrificial methods), gaining “protection” from constant war activities in the Greater Panjab (the seasonal assaults of Aryan tribes to fortified dasa settlements, mentioned several times in the Rigveda), bearing more robust and religio-socially more privileged children, and – why not? – giving more sexual pleasure to them due to their bigger penis size… I am aware of the fact that those mixed marriages were often the result of the subjugation of dasa women to slavery by the immigrating Indo-Aryans (there are records in Vedic literature of wagons full of dasa young women carried away to be married to brahmins or kshatriyas), but this does not mean the mixed marriages were just a matter of male violence (or “raping”, as you love to say).
    ‘nuff said!

  17. Francesco Brighenti’s sudden obsession with penis lengths is amusing. He sounds like those Pakistanis on Reddit who are constantly out to compare penis lengths. Unsurprisingly, they also keep spamming that same BBC report.
    We already had a thread in the past debunking all that.

    And his cutting-edge analysis of using pictures of naked, flaccid people as some sort of measure for erect lengths is even gonna give those Pakistani trolls a run for their money.

    Also lmao at that mensxp article (citing mandatory[dot]com). It was debunked long ago.
    https://www.dailydot.com/irl/penis-size-infographic-debunked/

    1. He is in direct contradiction to what the nature linked article I just posted. I don’t think he can read. It literally says

      “Reports on mean erected length are available only
      from USA,1 Jordan7 and Israel.9 Erected length
      obtained in the present study (13.01 cm) does not
      differ significantly from the mean erected length
      reported by Wessells et al.1 from USA (12.89 cm),
      but the finding reported from Israel9 (13.6 cm) is
      significantly higher. The mean value reported from
      Jordan7 (11.8 cm) is found to be significantly low.
      Bondil et al.10 reported the longest penile length in
      the flaccid (10.7 cm) and stretched conditions
      (16.24 cm). In their study, measurements were
      obtained after three manual stretches of the penis.
      Owing to the methodological difference in determining stretched length, it cannot be compared with
      the present study. Longest erected length reported is
      15.99 cm (Richters et al.11) followed by 15.5 cm
      (Kinsey et al.12). Details of these studies were not
      available for a statistical comparison. For erected
      circumference, the only data available are from
      USA1 and it does not show any significant difference from the Indian data.”

      He just keeps pushing his unfounded assertion that steppe males had on average larger penis sizes. He keeps pushing frankly what is simply a narrative at this point because he has no data to back up his claims. He is literally talking nonsense and posting stuff that resembles the writing of a semi-literate erotic fiction writer. It isn’t worth engaging with him further because I literally think he cannot comprehend what he is reading.

      His trolling is of poor quality. At least trolls try a little harder normally. He is hinging on the following line:

      .”There are significant differences in the mean penile length and circumference of
      Indian sample compared to the data reported from other countries”

      Not realizing, that the word significant just means statistically significant goes both ways (Israeli vs. Jordanian data for example), with confounders discussed. Regardless if he wants to hinge on the Israeli data which was 13.6 cm vs. 13.1cm, as above he can go right ahead. He can then compare to the US data of 12.89cm and the Jordanian one of 11.8cm which was reported as significantly low.

      He is a bad troll. He can’t read. He posts debunked infographics. He clearly has no clue about data, with how he doesn’t even know how to properly interpret the term “significant.” All I can conclude is that he is just using this outlet as a weird outlet for his sexual rape fantasies at this point.

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