a discussion of things brown….
A Look at Brooklyn’s Little Bangladesh.
Hey Razib, I love your blog, which I have been following for years and has helped me understanding the population genetics. Curiously, I have some questions for you, Razib, [and other folks if they can answer]
– Is there a possibility of a population rich with ANE ancestry living in South Asia?
– Some years ago, I heard that there was strong sexual selection for darker skin for a period after the arrival of Indo-Aryans. Is this true? If so, were the selectors predominantly men or women?
– Why did the BMAC not leave a significant genetic impact on Indians?
– Is it true that South India didn’t have Western Eurasian ancestry until the middle bronze age?
– In your view, how many waves of Steppe herders arrived in India? And how many people do you estimate were part of each wave?
– Did the Bell Beaker culture descend from the Single Grave Culture?
– Why are Irish people so pale? Could it be attributed to the Bell Beaker immigrants in Ireland being significantly lighter-skinned compared to other Bell Beaker immigrants in different regions?
– Is it true that Ethiopian Jews have western eurasian ancestry up to 55%?
– Northeast Turkish people have a lot of CHG related ancestry. Is it because they are turkified Caucasians or they mixed heavily with Caucasians?
china is the first non western country to have gone past the west in innovation , research and development regarding energy sources. That have now made original and significant contributions with thorium plants and electric batteries. science works bitches, east or west, liberal or communist.
Centrist economist says that Modi has made tough long term reforms that will yield long term gains but “glad” that gains will be delayed beyond 2024.
One thing is for sure…2024 would have been lot easier if Modi had pandered to his support base, both social/religious and economic without antagonizing out groups.
One thing for sure is that BJP needs to fix feedback loop and get better state level leadership.
What are the thoughts of people on the Manipur situation here?
Interesting map of countries by most prevalent blood group.
India is O+ just like east Asia and even Middle East and Americas. PK and BD strike out as the only construes with B+ as most prevalent blood group.
Wikipedia says B+ is the most common blood type in India, at 32%.
Will be great if Razib@ can confirm the wiki dates. The twtr thread definitely seemed to neatly align with boundaries , both political and ideological but good to get confirmation.
“ US must ask itself, can it trust India as a regional and global security partner when India is committed to becoming a racist, casteist, and majoritarian nationalist state?” asks @ChatterjiAngana, a Scholar at @UCBerkeley“
Scholars of less-Hindu regions ☝️
is the country seeing the mad rush caused by women in karnataka govt buses? the irony is that an ‘atheist’ siddaramaiyya has facilitated mad rush to hindu places piligrimage. all other sections are angry.wondering if this will get congress more seats in lok sabha??.
but one thing is certain, rahul and team are bird brained…
Barkha dutt article on India never going to be in exclusive monogamy relationship with US
is cringe pro Max. Literally like the girl in college who is falling for the “bad guy” but insists on they being just friends to keep her options open 😬
Activists ask Biden to publicly rebuke Modi over human rights
Seems all those pent up anger of Trump years is sprouting forward
Obamas statement of India in future breaking up, is him putting american support to islamists and shows american cards for support for islamists and future intervention in India.
But we have turkeys in this open thread cheering for thanksgiving, hoping that they will be the Judas goat that will be saved 🤦♂️
some intellectuals think obamas statement means nothing, it is just for domestic consumtion. These are the people who will say, threats made in public are not real because that would be foolish to do so. This is nonsense. Obama is always careful of what he says, is is laying the ground. Hard not to see this, because what he said is very incendiary. That is not accident. America is very clear on its intereference in India and are palying the old british card.
America couldn’t even successful accomplish their agenda in Afghanistan, what makes you think they could successfully project power into India?
Srsly, wrong example and wrong lesson. look at what has happened since the US withdrawal? Ukr… and now To top it off, taliban is attacking Iran. Also in case of India, remember what happened after the high of 1971.
“Also in case of India, remember what happened after the high of 1971.”
I remember that America’s Pakistani allies lost in that war, that’s what I remember.
America is a very powerful country and often/usually uses its power for bad ends, but it’s also less powerful (and more internally divided) than many people often realize.
yeah India won, BD became independent but you forget the turmoil afterwards that IN had to go through the 70s and 80s. Granted IG reacted injudiciously to the pinpricks but for IN it was the first time that it was under sustained regime change pressure. Hence I give kudos to Modi for not taking the khalistani bait or in general succumbing to the “iron hand” instinct.
The demography, technology, the ability to create wedge, the world economy of the time relative to now. Everything is different. ukraine is resisting russia with aid of american tech. Something not possible in 71. There is a live example right now. Second, 71 was an opportunity for India exactly as pakistanis were committing genocide of hindus and other bengalis who wanted their linguistic identity to be respected. That is what allowed for a wedge and also the fact that geographically it was right next door and many regugees were coming to India in the millions and hence could be trained to fight. And most important of all, The soviets had our Back both militarily and in the un and chinese did not intervene on behalf of pakistan. It was the most psychopathic bet america made, it wanted all, soviets, India, pakistan and china to nuke themselves or so it was hoped. This directly from henry kissinger, the white bastard.
The fight now is one between, securing technology vs securing demography. Securing demography means acting now, securing technology means to let things play out as it is. Securing technology is the better option . Let things playout as it shall. In 25 to 50 yrs, things will come to some form of confrontation anyway. It is better to build the capital for any outcome. One does not have that. we are not battling islamists, if that were the case, it would be no problem , but as is clear. Pakistan was created by britain, sustained by usa and china and islamists in India will be backed by usa and perhaps china too in future. While some here might see this purely from religious angle, the reality is, Geo politics is ruthless . your weakness will be exploited no matter what. survival of civilization only comes with technology. Indian founders took to western methods that have delayed Indian development significantly. China simply followed their empirical principles and fashioned out own path and secured demography and internal peace and order first and then secured capital and now securing technology. While Hindus might feel they are being cheated and it is true. Mistakes of the past cannot be undone by emotionalism and new mistakes. Secure the capital, secure the technology and then if necessary be willing to fight even civil war within. here, the order might be different. But what is necessary needs to be done. before wars are fought, one needs to build the war capital. Take in the insults and bide your time. your enemies will show their cards anyway.They will provide opportunity for justification for what needs to be done themselves.
Maleesha Kharwa 15 year old from Slums to Teen Model
Firstly, brownpundits no longer exists on twitter. why is that?
Secondly, This prediction was made here, in so many words, it also is predicted by most rw ppl, that as ms pop rises, they will do much the same as they did in 47. What obama is doing is carefully laying the blame on Hindus decades before that even happens, it goes to show, not obamas private thinking, but their national security thinking.
As I have said before on here. West and western elites see the world economy and demography 30 to 50 yrs from now and only then make their plans towards that future. You do not understand west until you understand this. West is aligning now with India precisely because as i said, even at a sub 3 to 4 percent gdp per capita. India will be between 7 to 10 trillion dollar economy in 30 yrs. And in 40 yrs, between 10 to 12 trillion dollar economy, while still relatively small compared to china and usa, it will be hefty enough compared to others. Not to mention, with rise of AI based tech, India might secure enough technology to be valuble ally. It is for this reason west now seeks to ally India. china is projected to grow more.
Again, projections are not necessarily true. But you make your plans based on that.
As to power projection. Western power projection failed in afghanistan because taliban was continously recruiting soldiers at cheaper costs than the soldiers of afghan govt. Because more than 99% afghans believe in sharia. In India, people hide this brute fact that 74% of Indian muslims believe in sharia and already have created one pakistan by forcing a partition. And I dont see their values changing that much in one generation, so as their population reaches around 20 % , (it was around 25% at around time of partition). china or usa or others will use this group as a wedge. Congress morons cant even confront islamic fundamentalism in history,that they have to concoct it. They cant confront in in past and have given up confronting it in present. They have not even made one common law for all Indians till now. Neither is there free speech. It all depends on whether you can create a wedge or not. In afghanistan, they could not create a wedge, here it is readily available, this is what even british did. divide and rule. Also black bastard obama does not talk of yezidis whose genocide he is responsible for or hindu minorities in pakistan or bangladesh etc. It isnt about human rights, it is about who will be the big powers in future and how to cut them to size.
“Black bastard”, seriously?
It isnt racism to call someone by their color once in a million years, if all the other behaviors are consistent to treating individual as a individual. Its amazing that you picked up on that than his record of allowing the rise of the most extremist islamist group and the genocide and rape of yezidis of which his leadership is singularly responsible. do care about actual genocide and actual organized rape in the hundreds. America suffers from unique form of brain deadening mental virus of woke that stops it from seeing this at the moment it seems.
“It isnt racism to call someone by their color once in a million years”
I realize most of the commenters on Brown Pundits are not American and have different mores, and that’s totally fine. Obama is an American though, and *in American culture*, calling him “black bastard” would be extremely inflammatory, beyond even what most ethno-racial conservatives, ethno-racial reactionaries or “race realists” would ever find remotely acceptable.
Thanks for calling him out. It had to be done.
I’m very, very far from “woke”, for what it’s worth, as you can tell by my history of blog comments over the years.
I have never met black persons of origin in my life. Being in India, they are but a tiny minority. I wish the best of life,dignity and opporunities they deserve.But those in power whose actions led to loss should cannot be afforded the collective sympathy of a whole group of people who might have been persecuted. Cannot allow the burkha of protection to someone like him who enjoyed the perks of power and wealth significantly more than most humans on earth and his actions led to one of the worst terrorist states on earth, however brief.
This also shows how history turned out as it did. Christian rational theology led to self domestican of christians on the idea of virtue and faith . That they can try to show faith being defended by reason. Muslims rejected that, for them, god need not be rational, his actions and thoughts do not need to be defended, only obeyed. In Hinduism, karma, dharma, satya have values independent of gods. Even krishna , rama were not left untouched by karma. So, there is a place for dissidents, because they piggyback on those ideas, it is not surprise that the most successful non hindu dharma still carries karma, dharma, whether it be jains, buddhists, sikhs. so hindus also self domesticated and liberals, left, atheists craps piggybacked on this self domesticated values for truth , virtue and reason. A combination of these. It is based on this, one could create a wedge between christians, hindus. you use the people who believe this and pit them against those who are fundamentalist. People have failed to do that in islam because islam theologically has neither any value for truth,virtue or reason, much less concepts of dharma, karma or ahimsa, showing other cheek etc. so in absence of such virtues present in the religion. how do you get people to get people to come together and confront fundamentalists?
What is clear without any doubt, only where you can create a moral wedge, you can hope to pit people against fundamentalists. But how can you create a moral wedge if not for the fact that there were enough people to value morality atleast in some aspects, that there were enough traits that you can exploit for this? Gandhi and congress succeeded against christain british, who were more powerful but failed against weaker muslim league? why?. because non violence for muslims is sporadic, flash in a pan, like abdul gaffar khan. it has no intrinsic value. Also, you will not see american muslims or muslims anywhere campaigning against religious fundamentalism or minority rights etc and do any better. morality maybe universal but moral conditioning is not. without basic reciprocity, it fails, congress in India failed because it bet on the idea that islam is no different than any other faith, and it isnt. Rather than admit their mistake they are doubling down on that, the opposition is fascist. this is also the game obama western liberaloids believe in as well. The only reason muslims chose fundamentalists is because of poverty and fascists on other side. They are intrinsically not capable of evil because islam is no worse than christianity or hinduism. No, it is much worse.
with few adjustments, i think it would be close to mathematical proof. if x is to be open minded, a significant % of those in x should have values that allows them to confront closeminded fundamentalists. Those values must either come internally or from outside.
Any news on the Sri Lankan mesolithic nuclear DNA? mtDNA was released last November.
I also want to know
What’s fueling the rise in Hindu nationalism in the U.S.
To some, Modi represents the face of a new, better India. To others, his human rights violations are ushering in an era of Hindu nationalism — and it’s rapidly spreading in the U.S.
‘“It’s a polarized space,” said Sunita Viswanath, a co-founder of the civil rights group Hindus for Human Rights. “There’s very little scope for bridge-building. … On the one hand, you have this mainstream Hindu response, which is that India’s national leader is coming to town and is being greeted by the American president with a state dinner, and that puts India on the map.”
As i have said earlier there is mainstream core-region Hindu response, and then there are the other ( less Hindu regions response). And soon all will fall in line. Or be ejected out of it. Like the Ahmediyas.
There’s no scarcity of Northie Leftoids, this is just the universal liberal response to Hindutva. Stop making this North Vs South or find better material.
Pankaj Mishra the og woke, Ravish Kumar, YoYa, Ananya Vajpeyi come up off the top of head.
Vishal Ganesan highlights another northie Sangay Mishra’s bile towards Hindus
Where did i say North vs South? Some of the Eastern and Northern States are even less Hindu than the Southern ones.
Mahavamsa, the Great Chronicle of Sri Lanka (covering the period 6th century BCE to 1815 CE)
One of the world’s longest unbroken historical accounts, the Mahavamsa is the first of its kind in South Asia, initiating a mature historiographic tradition, presenting Sri Lanka’s history in a chronological order from the 6th century BCE. The authenticity of the facts provided in the document has been confirmed through
archaeological research conducted in Sri Lanka and India. It is an important historical source in South Asia containing crucial information about lifetime of the Buddha, the Emperor Asoka and the rise of Buddhism as a world religion. The document played a significant role in popularizing Buddhism in Southeast Asia and contributed singularly to the identity of Emperor Asoka in the Indian history. Existence of number of manuscripts of Mahavamsa in several countries as well as the transliteration and translation of the text to several Southeast Asian and European languages stand testimony to its immense historical, cultural, literal, linguistic and scholarly values.
List of the 64 new items of documentary heritage inscribed on the Memory of the World International Register in 2023.
Honestly, the Mahavamsa overstresses the centrality of Buddhism to historical events in Sri Lanka. It is a very important source, no doubt. I wonder how much of the pre-Buddhist history has been redacted over the centuries of transmission.
The development of Sinhala preceded the Buddha by a considerable margin. However the arrival of Buddhist monks (Magadhi speakers) catalysed Sinhala in the same way as Latin monks did to Germanic tongues.
Anuradhapura’s earliest layers date to 900 BCE and it was already urban indicating complex social structures. Who were these people? Perhaps lost to us forever due to zealous Buddhist monks tying Sinhala to their own arrival.
Honestly, the Mahavamsa overstresses the centrality of Buddhism to historical events in Sri Lanka.
I would think much less than India stressing Aryan Origins, Hinduism and Casteism.
I wonder how much of the pre-Buddhist history has been redacted over the centuries of transmission.
Anuradhapura’s earliest layers date to 900 BCE and it was already urban indicating complex social structures. Who were these people? Perhaps lost to us forever due to zealous
No question quite a bit of pre 500BC history was not recorded in the narrative. However, in the Mahavamsa the Yakka (and Nagas) are people who had cities and at times co ruled with the invaders. The Yakkas were not hunter gatherers.
Many example, showing two of them.
Mahavamsa Chapter 7: Here there is a yakkha-city called Sirisavatthu
Mahavamsa Chapter 31: Moreover, to ward off the evil yakkhas the twenty-eight yakkha-chieftains stood holding guard. Pancasikha stood there playing the lute, and Timbaru who had set up a stage, making music to sound forth.28 Many devas (stood there) singing sweet songs and the naga-king Mahakala chanting praises in manifold ways.
Note: Devas are also a tribe, one of main four that made up the original inhabitants. Yakkha, Naga, Deva and something else.
All indications are that a few non vedic people arrived from India and mixed into the local population. I expect many Indian Estate Tamils will also be assimilated into Sinhala society. Many of the west coast are recent (300 years) arrivals from Kerala. They are now either Catholics or Buddhists and identify as Sinhalese. That includes General Sarath Fonseka (Buddhist) and bro-in-law a Fernando (catholic).
Buddhist monks tying Sinhala to their own arrival.
In the Chapter Vijayas arrival, it states he and his followers were called Sihala because the son of Sinhabahu (in Kalinga)
The development of Sinhala preceded the Buddha by a considerable margin.
All evidence points to Sinhala being developed after the arrival of Pali. (if you have any counter evidence link it).
A point to note is that the word Khattiya (Skt. ksatriya) is not used for Sri Lankan kings or even the Buddha. Points to a non Vedic, non Aryan peoples of Sri Lanka. For that matter in the Mahavamsa even the word Arya is not used to describe any peoples. In the Culavamsa (post 300AD) Arya is used for Pandyans.
Finally it was not race that made a Sri Lankan king legitimate in the eyes of those who wrote the Mahavamsa and Culavamsa. It was being a Theravada Buddhist.
For example the hero in the Culavamsa, Parakramabahu I was a direct male descendant of a Pandyan Tamil Prince. 1/4 Pandyan, 1/4 Kalinga and half Sinhalese.
King Parakramabahu I Ancestry
I think that the Mahavamsa retconned actual events into the island’s history. A few points that are easily falsified.
– The Buddha never visited Kalinga, let alone Sri Lanka. Early Buddhist Texts (EBTs) in India do not have a geographical knowledge of regions to the South or beyond the sea.
– Archaeological excavation at Keezhadi (an Iron Age datum site from 600 BCE) has yielded pottery having Brahmi script with patronyms – Eyyan, Udhiran, Aadhan and Tissa. The last name is highly indicative of active trade with Sri Lanka. There have been many famous Tissa’s in ancient SL. So a long tradition of this particular name.
– Siran Deraniyagala has established Brahmi usage in Sri Lanka at 450 BCE – confirmed by FR Allchin and Robin Cunningham in the early 1990s. Actually the presence of Brahmi on both sides (Keezhadi/600 BCE and Salgahawatta/450BCE) is very conclusive.
– a cursory examination of Tamil Sangam literature will establish the lack of Buddhist references in the Early and Middle stages. The earliest archaeology for a Buddhist structure in TN would be 200 BCE on the coast close to the Palk Strait
I think therefore that Buddhism arrived in Tamilnadu and SriLanka at roughly the same time – 250 BCE or so – King Ashoka’s reign coincides with this time frame.
So for a period of four hundred years at least, from 600 to 200 BCE, Sri Lanka had an active Prakritic culture with the use of scripts. The Mahavamsa’s composers have either actively suppressed this history or perhaps have mixed the real events into a semi-fictional account with Buddhist fables.
Sri Lankan genetics will throw great light on the population movements in Ancient India. I firmly believe that the Prakrit speakers who arrived in Sri Lanka (900 BCE) left before the formation of the varna system in India and also the advent of Sakas and Hunas (Steppes components). This is the reason why you see a lack of Kshatriya or Arya related terms in Sri Lankan history.
We see the same dichotomy in Tamil Sangam literature. There are a lot of Prakrit loans from the early stages onwards. In the Middle layers, we see the word Arya for the first time.
You are basically saying what Mahavamsa says, with a few differences.
eg People of Sri Lanka are for the most part pre Vedic/Steppe/Aryan people. Some Indian Tamils refer to us the the Dalits who left India.
Buddhism arrived in Tamilnadu and SriLanka at roughly the same time – 250 BCE or so
No question but South India and South India erased its Buddhist heritage. However, in Sri Lanka Theravada Buddhism remained central to its identity. and still does*.
Ugra I hope you agree that Buddhist structures like Sanchi predate any Hindu/Animistic structures in India.
Buddhism (and Jainism) was the first consistent organized philosophy with some basic rules. Hinduism on the other hand is a mishmash of conflicting ideas, that in South India have incorporated many animistic concepts like Kali worship.
*Like I have said often the central tenet of the Mahavamsa is that this is the Land the Buddha Chose to preserve his Dharma. Unlike Israel this is not a land of chosen people, the Island is what is chosen. Anyone can be part of this Island, but FOREMOST place has to be given to Buddhism. How different is that from India’s concept of Hindu and being a Indian
You digress now from the discussion. But that is also an interesting subject.
Buddhist soteriology was limited to the monastic orders in the South and did not find any traction with the lay followers. There were two reasons for this – the Buddhist clergy did not bother to unpack the philosophy in local languages. In SL, it might have been easier as the languages were within the IA family.
Second, the Buddhists did not make themselves useful to the established kings. The Saiva Siddhanta schools produced very specific manuals and routines for warriors and administrators. The Buddhists drank their own kool-aid of “bhikkhu and dukkha” and retreated from the grind. They remained an ornamental figure in the annals of history.
But as Buddhism gained prominence during his reign, the Brahmins lost their power; Ashoka is said to have built 84,000 stupas, most with edicts inspired by Buddhist teachings. As the Brahmins recovered their influence under King Pushyamitra Sunga (a Brahmin), they started destroying the stupas and monasteries.
“Hinduism on the other hand is a mishmash of conflicting ideas, that in South India have incorporated many animistic concepts like Kali worship.”
Why is incorporating animistic concepts a problem?
Buddhists incorporate animistic deities too, as you see in places like Tibet, Japan and Laos.
Why is incorporating animistic concepts a problem?
Not a problem per se, just not very rational or logical.
Supreme power gods like Vishnu, Brahma, God (Christian), Allah can be considered semi rational, as used to explain the unexplainable.
But then Monkey gods, Elephant headed gods are just crazy. The worst being phallus/lingam worship. Are these common among North Indian Hindus
I do worship the Yoni, the real one as it the cave of Heavenly Pleasures.
Buddhists incorporate animistic deities too, as you see in places like Tibet, Japan and Laos.
Buddhist temples in SL will have a side temple (generally small) for Vishnu, Ayyanar. Its more a business thing, collect the donations that might go to a Hindu Temple. The Buddhist priest is not generally involved, other than collect money. A kapuwa/pusari priest is employed to chant the occasional mumbo jumbo.
That said many Sinhalese Buddhist patronize Hindu Kali Temples. Not seen any real Monkey God or elephant head god temples being patronized by Sinhalese (not really noticed any too).
Logic is based on whatever axiom one accepts. But by rationality, are you alluding to Plato’s divided line?
“Supreme power gods like Vishnu, Brahma, God (Christian), Allah can be considered semi rational, as used to explain the unexplainable.”
I think there’s a lot about the Christian God that doesn’t make rational sense. Starting with the problem of evil, and moving on to the fact that it doesn’t really account well for the varieties of different religious experience. Either di-theism or polytheism, of some kind, would make more sense to me. The Islamic concept makes even less sense (to me), at least the Christian trinity allows some degree of plurality within the Godhead.
Positing supernatural beings associated with natural forces on the other hand seems quite rational to me- as we can see from how widespread animist and quasi-animistic beliefs are cross culturally and historically.
As you can clearly see, logical and rational in this context are subjective terms- people are going to differ on what supernatural conceptions they see as more or less reasonable.
I think there’s a lot about the Christian God that doesn’t make rational sense. Starting with the problem of evil, The Islamic concept makes even less sense (to me),
You are preaching to the choir re Christian God or Allah not being a rational construct. I was just being kind to say semi rational.
I have been an Atheist since the age of 14-. No gods, No Devils, No Evil Spirits, no Hexes or good or bad spirit charms*. So no fear of the supernatural. I really feel sorry for the people who fear the supernatural.
I now live ALONE (now almost 10+years ) in an area where many wild elephants roam around. They have destroyed over 80% of the coconut plantation that I planted. The villagers and soothsayers say the elephants are protecting treasure buried and there is a/are spirits guarding the treasure and I should leave the property. Not going to happen.
*other than the charms of a woman, and fallen to a few and loved it mostly and paid.
sbarrkum the Sinhala Buddhist supremacism is leaking.
All this talk of Hinduism being a primitive phenomenon meanwhile your commentary is superficial. You can’t get past elephant head god and monkey god and omg they worship penises. You sound like the white kids from 9th grade religion class.
“Buddhist temples in SL will have a side temple (generally small) for Vishnu, Ayyanar. Its more a business thing, collect the donations that might go to a Hindu Temple. The Buddhist priest is not generally involved, other than collect money. A kapuwa/pusari priest is employed to chant the occasional mumbo jumbo.”
this sounds like something the Sinhala Buddhist would do. Anything to torment and degrade the innocent Tamil Hindu minority.
‘Exhibit 101 of why Indian-Americans in the govt (or in any non-corporate praxis) r positively negative interlocutors for India. Much more fruitful to deal w/the white american establishment.’
Currently watching this interview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I862ksIkEtE
At some point hypothesis of East Med admixture is mentioned and is said to be false based on ancient DNA. However I dimly recalled reading about some East Med signals remaining in modern Greeks, so I checked global25 to see if they get excess East Med. The problem is I don’t know exactly what East Med is, so I separately used Jordan bronze age and Megiddo/Israel iron age to see if they have excess of that on top of the Slavic ancientry (proxy: Poles) and bronze age Greek ancestry (proxy: Mycenaean). It seems they have a little big of East Med, at least among people of Peloponnese and Tsakonia which is close to Peloponnese. About 15% to 20% here. However, as I said, I don’t know what East Med is, so I might be setting this up wrong. Any criticisms?
Distance: 1.8323% / 0.01832300
Distance: 1.4776% / 0.01477551
Distance: 2.1479% / 0.02147875
Distance: 1.7378% / 0.01737798
Looks like my comment didn’t make it through. In this recent interview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I862ksIkEtE) Razib mentions Greeks not having Syrian ancestry. This doesn’t jive with what I had heard about east med ancestry in modern Greeks. I haven’t heard much about it, so IDK which population to pick as the east med proxy, so I picked Megiddo IA and Jordan EBA. Using these, modern Greeks get 15% to 25% of these ancestries as the east med proxy, and 50% from Myceneans. Maybe these aren’t the right populations to use, but that is what I get.
Regarding Indian animosity to the Indo-Aryan migrations- the first point of the British using it for this and that is bogus. The British won more or less all pitched battles against local powers, in the aftermath what they say to justify this or that or the other is irrelevant by comparison. This point of wayyy overemphasized by the modern anti-invasion/anti-migration crowd.
A bigger source is probably in the late 1930s from Golwalkar and co.
This is foolish. The political consequences continue to this day with party like dmk in power in state like tamil nadu, southern most state of India. whose ideology was of dravidianism was godfathered by british through robert cadwell. A simple wikipedia search would have helped discover this.
Them attaching themselves to that ideology means there is something about them that draws them to the ideology. Whether or not it was given to them in whatever packaged form then becomes a less relevant thing. The notion of Dravidian languages being different isn’t something unique to Caldwell’s work. Also, at first his work didn’t have much of an influence. Since you mentioned wikipedia, I will pull a quote from there
“However, the first edition of Caldwell’s grammar was “met with firm resistance” by the Chanars precisely because they “did not like the idea of being divorced from Brahmanical civilization”, the very division Caldwell was hoping to exploit.”
The anti-Brahmin movement is from the early 1900s, and by then if you removed merely Caldwell’s work, there would still be enough material published by others that the anti-Brahmin crowd could latch on to and their movement was motivated by resentment against Brahmins on economic/social grounds. Not commenting on any validity or lack thereof, but the ingredients were there even without Caldwell. On the other hand, the tendency among Indian nationalists to be anti-AIT/AMT was rare before 1930s. As recently as late 1800s and early 1900s, Indian nationalists used to pride themselves with preserving a culture that was lost in Europe while acknowledging a migration of people.
Now you have gone from calling it bogus to justifying it. It invalidates your original argument and now you are shifting goalposts. You now admit this was an a conscious attempt to use dividion and are now justifying it. Second, by your logic, even nazism is justified due to older genetic history. That there was something in there that added fuel to that. And no, you have no worthwhile necessary and sufficient evidence to show that without british interference to exploit this , this would have existed at all.
The original argument still stands since you didn’t really say anything against it. The original argument was that the British didn’t have to justify anything for the status quo that they ruled over. Anything they said or didn’t say is more or less meaningless after the status quo was established.
You then went on about how some Anglo said something which supposedly the Dravidianists bought wholesale. Then I said even that didn’t matter much, because they were probably invested in that enough to the point where they could have stitched it together from works other than those of the scholar you mentioned. They were jealous/resentful, they had enough evidence for a difference (regardless of how much it mattered) and thats all they needed for their ideology to be born.
>Second, by your logic, even nazism is justified due to older genetic history. That there was something in there that added fuel to that.
I didn’t validate the Dravidianist claim. Did you miss the part where I said “Not commenting on any validity or lack thereof,” or did you doze off just before “lack thereof”? What I am saying is that the Dravidianists could have arrived at the conclusion without someone supposedly giving it to them. Curiously, the wikipedia page on the Dravidian movement linked via the Robert Caldwell page makes no mention of him, which is kind of weird since you said “dravidianism was godfathered by british through robert cadwell.”.
>And no, you have no worthwhile necessary and sufficient evidence to show that without british interference to exploit this , this would have existed at all.
Well, technically if European/British linguists hadn’t established the difference in Dravidian and Indo-Aryan languages in terms that laymen can understand, yes, the Dravidianists would have one less very important ground to stand on. But the more important question is whether or not the Dravidianists could have arrived at their ideology without a godfather who isn’t mentioned on the page of his own ideology on a source that you named.
Idk why people forgetting that the reason DMK captured power was INC’s zeal to push Hindi. INC ruled TN for 20 years straight and it would’ve remained a major political power in TN to this day, had they not went ahead with their Hindi-Hindu-Hindustan agenda.
In fact, Dravidian Ideology was summarily defeated in 1956. Modern “Dravidianism” is just a mix of Tamil Nationalism and boilerplate Caste Politics
“Regarding Indian animosity to the Indo-Aryan migrations- the first point of the British using it for this and that is bogus. ”
This is the original argument. British used it and its impact still continues. And hence this argument has been invalidated.That is the origin. Your other arguments are conjecture and logically extends itself in case of nazis as well. You cannot use a form of reasoning in one case and disagree with same form of reasoning in other case. you adding the moral qualifier of whether you wish to believe their claims or not is irrelevant. You tried to defend british record and deny their use of this for divide and rule and hence the political relevance and now have a problem when one points out that same tactic in case of nazis. Now you add the arguments of underlying resentments, well, that also adds well to nazis and jews all over again. Again, this dravidianist ideology has not taken off in other South Indian states much like the genocide against jews also did not take off across europe. resentments do not need to lead to similar outcomes or similar ideology either.
I won’t be responding to the Nazi strawman again. There was no need for any “divide and rule” politics. The British had defeated rival opponents in battle and also in the process made local allies who were on their side. Some guy said something at some time and it wasn’t popular even in his day (according to your choice of source: wikipedia). Then decades later, some Non-Brahmins became jealous of Brahmin position in society and made a movement which apparently didn’t get far until recent linguistic re-ignition based on what Enigma said. Contrast this with a sudden inorganic and total top-down shift among Indian Nationalists and the difference is obvious. Not saying that one is good or better than the other, I personally don’t think either is good, but the shift with the Indian Nationalists is more abrupt and more important in the anti-AIT/AMT mindset. Furthermore, if one wants to oppose Dravidianism or just be an Indian Nationalist, it doesn’t require having an anti-AIT/AMT argument. Just because your opponent says the sky is blue doesn’t mean you have to say that it is green.
At some point it is said that the people of neolithic Iran were as different from neolithic Syrians as modern Chinese are from Northern Europeans. I don’t see that being the case in global25.
Distance to: IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
Distance to: Swedish
Unless what was meant was modern Chinese vs ancient Iranians for comparison:
Distance to: IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
But the Chinese – ancient Iranian or modern Northern Europe difference looks bigger than ancient Iranian – ancient Syrian difference.
Also, I have not heard of Cleopatra’s sister’s grave. But Coleman’s comment on skulls was strange. Quantitative analysis of skulls/ craniometry =/= phrenology. I can understand (but still don’t like) some amount of off-handed approximations but this isn’t even that. These are 2 different things and craniology has a 5% error in group identification so it can be used as a pre-emptive hypothesis because is quick and easy to measure faces and neurocranium of a skull; and genetic results can take much longer to be completed.
Re your comments on Hanuman and shiv lingam worship—- folk religions/customs are like roots of a tree, they interact with soil and as such are messy and don’t come neatly packaged for consumption outside their native contexts. But these native folk customs also enrich the higher traditions of dharma like Buddhism. You mocking and dunking on them reminds me of kalidasa’s shepherd chopping off the branch on which he was sitting.
P.S. Atleast in south India, engagements and weddings are solemnized with bettle leaf and 2 Areca nuts.
Re your comments on Hanuman and shiv lingam worship—- folk religions/customs are like roots of a tree, they interact with soil and as such are messy and don’t come neatly packaged for consumption outside their native contexts
I would think they are more like branches, i.e. manifestations of the soil (history) they grew in. As such some branches may need to be trimmed
Frank Herbert set DUNE in a religious sci-fi universe because he believed that atheoids would never bother exploring the universe or the unknown.
I really did not know that Frank Herbert was some kind of God/prophet and Dune was his “Bible”
one has to make differences between claims and actual evidence of how ideas come about. the monotheistic claim of their religion being logical as there is but one source of supernatual and so is an improvement on polytheists who believe in all sorts of non logical things might seeem reasonable at first thought except, origins of logic and philosophy goes to those very same polytheists, especially to hellenes and hindus. It was borrowed from there. And the reasoning is because polytheists can question their deities. Monotheists cannot. It is the freedom to question from which such things are built, not on the number of sources of supernatural interference.
‘Hassan Nisar is an Arain who believes his ancestors were Arabs who brought Islam to dirty Hindu Pakistanis.
In reality, Arain are Jats from South Punjab, who invented claim of Arab ancestry during British period to secure Agricultural Tribe designation.’
Ali Ali by Women’s Sufi Qawwali Ensemble
A few explanations;
Ali Ali: Is the same as saying Jesus Jesus. Ali was the cousin and son-in-law of the Prophet Muhammad and the first man to convert to Islam.
Qawwali: “sayings (of the prophet).
If anyone sees similarity of the music to Indian music, it is no accident. The Mughal (Mongol) (16th – 19th) Empire was essentially Persian. Who knows which way the influence flowed.
One must remember that Iran/Persia is ancient, even before when it was called Persia during Alexanders (300 BC) time (if you have never heard of Roxana you have never read world history). Just for context thats Mayura (Chandragupta and Asoka Mayura time) In Sri Lanka Devanam-Piyatissa times.
Now to some DNA/Genetics. Iran (the land of the Aryans) is considered to be the source of two major sources populations of the world.
a) A big part of the European genes (and some Indian genes)
b) In Iranian Highlands a brown skinned peoples who became part of the Mohendojaro Harrapa Civilization
Thanks to much on
>Now to some DNA/Genetics. Iran (the land of the Aryans) is considered to be the source of two major sources populations of the world.
a) A big part of the European genes (and some Indian genes)
b) In Iranian Highlands a brown skinned peoples who became part of the Mohendojaro Harrapa Civilization
The Aryans didn’t come from Iran. There is a recent Harvard hypothesis about some Caucasus/South of the Caucasus thing, but most of the non-EHG in suspected Proto-Indo-Europeans is CHG. So even if the Indo-European languages came from the non-EHG component, it’d be from CHG (which I don’t believe given what I have seen, but still). The non-EHG, non-CHG contribution from Iran is minute even if its there at all.
Arains are not Jats. The Indian equivalent is the Saini community in North India. They are agriculturists specializing in vegetable production.
I think outside Punjab , Sainis are seen as Punjabi Baniyas, at least the Hindu ones.
Your argument claiming that it is bogus is the issue to which i objected. extending your logic is not a strawman. It is reductio ad absurdum.
“Regarding Indian animosity to the Indo-Aryan migrations- the first point of the British using it for this and that is bogus. ”
You dont seem to realize that I dont care about amt/ait at all. I never did care much about it . It is not enough to simply win a territory, in order to hold it, and stop everyone from allying against empire, that is where divide and rule gets applied.
It is a strawman because there have been thousands of cases of ethnic jealousy throughout human history. This isn’t a uniquely Nazi-like thing. Therefore it is a strawman if taken to be anything but this.
>It is not enough to simply win a territory, in order to hold it, and stop everyone from allying against empire, that is where divide and rule gets applied.
They had lots of local allies. Most of the local powers that they didn’t defeat were already allied to them. Even when they started out, most of their soldiers were Indians. If Indians were to defect or oppose in an effective manner it would have happened when there was an actual opposition to attach oneself to. This is not an impossibility but it didn’t happen even when a notable number of allies resented them culminating in the 1857 rebellion.
This is just a conjecture but I think if you could copied this world into a large number of mid-1800s copies and adjusted the amount of the Aryan-Dravidian rhetoric coming from the British, I suspect it wouldn’t correlate or track with political outcomes during the British regime.
It is again not a strawman , pointing to nazis is but a prominent example. It is quite literally, reductio ad absurdum. In anycase, you now admit that it is a conjecture, it still doesnt remove the british intervention, which is what you originally called as being bogus. I dont care for the rest of the arguments on ait/amt etc.
The interference you pointed to is said to have been unpopular in it’s day and your own source points do a different origin for the phenomenon. Not even evidence for it being essential. Therefore it is bogus as said originally. The conjecture is that if there was somehow a way to exhaustively look for and measure the impact of the source you believe is the cause, then we’d probably find close to no impact. Short of that, its still bogus.
Bringing up Nazis is become irrelevant since there is nothing unique about a group being covetous.
Dathang, the claims of unpopular in its day is according to whom?. It doesnt matter. The measure of reality is empirical evidence. Not conjectures or assumptions or claims of popularity or unpopularity. The seed begins there. What is relevant and what you dont seem to understand as to why it is reductio ad absurdum is because, those ideas did not find purchase in other states, much like the case of nazis and resentment did not lead to same treatment of jews by everywhere else .
Here is the empirical evidence, in the place where british interfered on through this particular form of idea, there is later day political manifestation. In other parts, it has not taken off. The same with nazis and jews, where the racial language was taken up in its strongest way, the end result is known. In other places where such rhetoric and language and ideas were not fostered, similar things did not happen. Precisely the reason, the racialised and eugenecist based views are suppressed by many.
>Dathang, the claims of unpopular in its day is according to whom?.
The very wikipedia page you brought up. ” However, the first edition of Caldwell’s grammar was “met with firm resistance” by the Chanars precisely because they “did not like the idea of being divorced from Brahmanical civilization”, the very division Caldwell was hoping to exploit.” It shows that it did not work. You are looking for a key in a well-lit place even though you didn’t lose it there.
>The measure of reality is empirical evidence. Not conjectures or assumptions or claims of popularity or unpopularity.
The evidence is the firm opposition to Caldwell and the complete lack of his mention in the movement he supposedly godfathered. In other words: no evidence.
>Here is the empirical evidence, in the place where british interfered on through this particular form of idea, there is later day political manifestation. In other parts, it has not taken off.
What is your control/comparison? What regions did the British not interfere in? They controlled India as the sole power for over a century and as a major factor for over two centuries. If it was then, your source would have provided evidence on something like the Dravidian movement’s page or the Dravidian nationalism’s page but there is none. Bringing up wikipedia was your choice. A few horse hairs fell into a bowl of milk and a snake came out of it, so the snake must be born out of the horse hair- that is an analogy of your evidence.
Mind you- I don’t disagree that they did try and stir up shit by moving people here and there to control demographics like some cases in Bengal. But those cases differ from yours in that they have evidence while you don’t. Contrast that with some guy saying something, not getting the reaction he wanted, then a movement sprouting out of a different cause long after his death, and labelling him as the godfather of the ideology. He probably would have wanted such an unearned label, but he obviously isn’t a cause of it.
In any case, on islam thingy, my views are still consistent, education, decent moral education is by itself enough to create a wedge, bjp as a party, likes to get to power through antagonism. It is a cheap political trick, true power is in unity of a society. That way, by creating a moral wedge, you will also blunt a schism that the westerners seek to utilize against your country for future regime change wars. As i said earlier, values can come from within or outside. But that requires a lot of investment in education and such things, bjp has no subtlety in its plans. idiots who seek to maximize the present and dont care for future. Before anyone is christian, muslim or hindu etc, they are human beings first.
i was always told that the fight in manipur was between the hindu meities from the plains and christian kukies from the hills. now there are news reports blaming rohingyas and other muslims.
can someone declutter it for me and others.
Mnangagwa accuses Indian business people of hoarding basic goods, threatens to confiscate them
“I have been told today that some Indians in Harare are stocking basic goods in warehouses. They buy sugar from Chiredzi, all the basic goods like flour and so on to stock in their warehouse then raise the prices, let me warn them,” he said and added that his team was investigating this issue and would proceed to confiscate the goods.
“If it is true, we shall confiscate, not only the warehouses but the things inside them and give it to you and distribute to people.”
The president said if foreign businesspeople based in Zimbabwe wanted to hoard goods, they should “go back to their countries.”
“Our government will never tolerate such activities in an independent Zimbabwe,” Mnangagwa said.
Idi Amin redux?
Foxconn: Apple supplier drops out of $20bn India factory plan
Indian Left Twitter is losing its head over J Sai Deepak’s identification of “any three Indians who should leave India” in a talkshow – namely – Barkha Dutt, Irfan Habib and Romila Thapar.
The fight is finally reaching the citadel of the Gangetic gatekeepers. Sai Deepak is fighting in the arena of cultural legacy and history – the very fight that PVNR sought against the Nehruvian economic morass and LK Advani’s against the opportunism of the Gangetic politicians.
Sai Deepak’s battle is half won already – there is hardly any original intellectual production coming out of the Gangetic. The old timers know it. May the non-Gangetics win!
without institutions, its flash in a pan. institutions teach the next generation, organized people, connects people locally. That is what matters. TEAMS win, individuals dont matter as much, they are necessary, but never sufficient.
Not sure why but I noticed that Razib has blocked me on twitter (sdave4). This is a request to be unblocked. Thanks.
obama greenlighted coup in egypt. For all the talk of muslims, once they start voting islamists in areas where it is of value to him. what a pretentious person he is. he gambles others lives and when it turns sour and it often does, he will not admit his bet. But would interfere in India.
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