On what Britain bequeathed, and what Delhi chose
- What did Britain actually leave in 1947, institutions or a franchise?
- Whose precedent was universal suffrage in 1950?
- Why did the wardrobe never decolonise?
- Are all South Asians natural democrats?
The Colonial Bequest
The parliamentary system across India, Pakistan and Bangladesh is Westminster’s. The founders, Gandhi, Nehru, Jinnah, were British-trained lawyers. Liberal democracy arrived in the West through revolutions and arrived in South Asia from the top down. Before the British, the subcontinent was ruled by monarchies, and the political parties are still run by royal houses in all but name, the Bhuttos, the Sharifs, the Gandhis. South Asians, on this account, are not natural democrats.
The chamber, the party system, the common law, the drafting language, the Inns of Court on the founders’ CVs are Albion’s gift. The Indian precedents, Chandragupta and Akbar are kings at scale, and pointing at them concedes the monarchy claim rather than rebutting it. The answer sits in the smaller polities.
The Dharmic republics
Panini, writing his grammar around the fourth century before the common era, records sangha and gana as forms of polity. Kautilya gives the sanghas their own chapter in the Arthashastra, advising that they cannot be conquered in the ordinary way and must be split from within. The Greeks who came with Alexander described communities in the Punjab and Sindh that had no king, and fought harder than the ones that did. The Yaudheyas struck coins in the name of the gana itself, victory to the assembly, not to a ruler.
The Buddhist Sangha describes the procedure in granular detail. A motion put formally, read up to three times, decided by wooden ballot sticks, counted by a teller appointed for impartiality, with quorum rules and provision for referral to committee. The Buddha’s advice to the Vajjian confederacy, meet often, meet in full, decide in concord, is advice to an assembly, recorded in the canon more than two thousand years ago.
Uttaramerur
The fullest single document is carved into the walls of a temple tank near Kanchipuram, from the twelfth and fourteenth regnal years of Parantaka Chola, early tenth century. Thirty wards. Names of eligible candidates written on palm leaves, the leaves into a pot, a young boy drawing the lots in front of the full assembly. Candidates needed land, a house, an age between thirty-five and seventy, and learning. A man who had not submitted his accounts was barred, and so were his relatives. Committees rotated annually; misappropriation disqualified for life.
However Uttaramerur was a brahmadeya village and the sabha was a Brahmin body. The franchise was narrow everywhere in the record, always propertied, always learned, always male and upper caste.
Which is the actual shape of the inheritance question. The subcontinent had deliberative procedure of considerable sophistication and a franchise that was never wide. What did Britain add?
The broadened franchise
The 1919 Act enfranchised about five million people, some three per cent. The 1935 Act took it to roughly thirty to thirty-five million, a tenth of the population, about one adult in six, qualified by property, income and education. Britain itself had reached full equal suffrage only in 1928, seven years before writing India’s.
Then Delhi, in 1950, adopted universal adult suffrage at a stroke, with literacy under a fifth, and put 173 million names on the rolls for the first general election. There was no precedent for it in the indigenous record, which was procedurally rich and narrow, and none in the colonial record, which was procedurally borrowed and narrow. Universality was chosen against both inheritances at once.
Kabir claims India is an invented nation, and Pakistanis hear the same about theirs. All nations are invented. The test is which inventions take, and this one has been taking attendance every five years since 1952, through emergencies, assassinations and, this week, a minister conceded to a movement of first-time voters. An unnatural democrat who votes for seventy-five years is difficult to distinguish from the natural kind.
The lungi
I walk around the colony in a lungi and draw looks, because native dress has quietly stopped being patronised anywhere that thinks of itself as arrived. The suit survived 1947 without a scratch. So did the accent hierarchy, the school names, the holiday geography. The Constitution overrode the colonial precedent in one article and the culture kept every other one.
“The vanquished always want to imitate the victor in his distinctive characteristics, dress, and all his other conditions and customs”. Ibn Khaldun
India and Pakistan spent their first eight decades proving they could keep an inherited machine running and improve its most important part. The next test is whether anything else gets the treatment the franchise got, kept where it serves, overridden where it does not. The ballot was decolonised in 1950. However world-over the Western dinner jacket is apparently eternal (in the colony it is now the lungi that reads as exotic).
The India-Pakistan hyphenation is silly. Both have problems, one has common flu, the other has tuberculosis.
Parts of India that became Pakistan were colonized late. Muslim League being the collaborator’s party did not help. The seeds of Pakistan’s miseries today can be found in choices Jinnah made : communalism, autocracy, inflexibility, militias, aid, compromized sovereignty, double-talk …
Ancestors of majority of Pakistani muslim punjabis and sindhis were probably all haaris i.e. poor sharecroppers who themselves descended from pastoralists not that long ago. Most got some land late during canal colonization, and some stole it from their Hindu-Sikh landowning neighbors who they killed or drove away. This word, haaris, alone makes them uniquely amenable to feudal domination and limits their democratic urges.
Land reforms are a fundamental building block of functioning democracy in an agrarian society. In near future anti-trust, anti-monopoly regulations will hold the same importance.
The region outside of North Punjab was thinly populated and was trampled in the 18th century by foreign armies. Northern (Pakistani) Punjab people were able to reorganize under Khalsa Raj and became prosperous pretty late under the British via canal lands allotted for their mercenary services.
This is why you see nothing of note outside of Lahore-Sialkot, i.e. North Punjab. Havelis of no name private Hindu merchants shame what passes for palaces in the rest of Pakistan outside the core North Punjab region. Not a lot of grand mosques, or forts, that show long periods of prosperity except some monuments here and there which you can count on fingers: Shah Jahan Mosque in Thatta, the Suhrawardi mausoleum complex in Multan, that btw ‘happens’ to be suspiciously close to the demolished temple, the necropolis in Makli, and the mosque in Chiniot, thats about it unless you count somewhat minor sites like Seetpur.
Look at some truly great Pakistani painters ones who were scratching at the ground of reality: Sadequain, Jameel Nashk, Shakir Ali, Ahmed Parwaiz. All are mojahirs. When you see the cliched works of Pakistani, even core Northern Punjabi, artists: likes of Chugtai and Shazia Siakander, mind lets out a ‘meh!’. It is objectively not good enough : oriental, limited, craftsmen not world bending artists. This holds true in some degree in all fields of human pursuit. Mojahirs and Northern Punjabis do all the heavy lifting in Pakistan.
Also, primarily Pakistani army with deep roots in northern punjab suffers disproportional casualties in counter insurgency primarily because they are not shooting at their people out of kindness.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/1gh9ta9/land_revenue_of_provinces_under_the_mughal/
Comment went to spam. Fish it out.
You go through multiple examples of gana sanghas and then lastly Uttaramerur to settle on your almost predetermined line about ” The franchise was narrow everywhere in the record, always propertied, always learned, always male and upper caste.”. Were the Gana Sanghs also upper caste? Also you forget Panchayat and Gram Sabha.
It is almost like Pakistan liberals are retroactively trying to justify why their ancestors decided to throw away their dharmic inheritance.
To clarify what I meant about “natural democrats”:
Liberal democracy requires one to accept the premise “all men are created equal”. Of course, in the American context this statement didn’t include African-Americans, women or even men without property. But the idea was that the colonists were not subjects but citizens. This was the whole point of the Declaration of Independence.
The French Revolution produced the Declaration of the Rights of Man. The aristocracy was literally guillotined.
South Asians tend to be very feudal. We come from a culture in which having servants is very normal. These servants don’t eat at our table and live in “quarters” at the back of the house. Theoretically, they are our fellow citizens. In practice, no one likes servants who attempt to get above themselves. This is normal dialogue in every Pakistani upper-middle class household (and probably in Indian upper middle-class households too).
Our political parties operate according to this same model. If you question the Bhuttos, you get kicked out of the PPP. Question the Sharifs and you get kicked out of PML-N. The Indians here know that INC basically exists to serve the Gandhi dynasty. Even PTI is basically the cult of Imran Khan.
The BJP believes it wholeheartedly when it decided to put a “Teli” OBC who would’ve been only considered good enough to extract oil from seeds in a previous era onto the highest office of the country for over a decade. We can all pontificate about the nature of democracy and cultures. But the reality is right in front of you, the republic is inclusive and it has raised many to offices which would be previously unimaginable a 100 years ago.
You cannot open the eyes of the wilfully blind. Brother Kabir, does not appear to be interested in facts regarding Hinduism or India. Only ones that don’t….blaspheme the TNT.
I’m not your “brother”.
It’s so ironic that the even though in the eyes of Allah all are equal but only 24 families in Pakistan are considered worthy of controlling all aspects of the state and economy. Yet Somehow the caste-ist Hindus have created a more equal society than the oh so egalitarian Muslims. Such lovely irony god throws at us.
Islam is not the religion where we believe certain people originated from God’s head and others from his feet.
Islam is not the religion that believes in “untouchability”.
Go and look at your Laws of Manu.
Yet you create much worse societies using the same gene pool. Perhaps all those ideals are all for naught.
Your religion believes in genociding polytheists, you guys couldn’t even stop yourself from genociding the Bengalis and you try to grab the moral ground. Come down from the high horse of yours buddy.
Stop.
Kabir & 0M if you guys continue sh!tpost; it’ll be a 25 comment deletion fine.
Both sides behave now. You can write intelligent comments about sensitive and complex topics rather than just spout nonsense.
This is an absurd comment.
There is absolutely Brahmin privilege but this misunderstands the whole vibrant and chaotic nature of Indian democracy.
You do realise India’s reservation system precisely penalises the Brahmins & UCs.
Kabir we are trying to regulate the space to accommodate all viewpoints but the paras from the “Hindu case” straddles the line between offense and ignorance (with respect)
Really? So we are going to deny that Hinduism and the caste system go hand in hand?
This is special pleasing (with respect).
Special pleading.
That was a typo.
Are we going to say that second class citizenry is foreign to Islam? Dhimmis have been a core part of any Indian Islamic Sultanate. Furthermore, Islam itself advocates quite openly for purging polytheists. Those who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.
“Purging polytheists” is not a core Islamic tenet.
Your Islamophobia is showing.
The tragedy of the desecration of the Holy Idols of Mecca is seen as the Crowning Triumph of the Prophet (PBUH).
Islam doesn’t believe in idol worship.
This is not the same as “purging polytheists”.
There are contextual ways to discuss these matters.
Kabir there is no need to escalate this.
As the Calvin thread showed; people can disagree without it getting overly heated. I don’t want such a cycle.
Caste is a major part of Hinduism. That’s simply a historical fact.
Any society that is based on caste is not “naturally democratic”. That was my entire point.
I’ll leave it there.
which society is naturally democratic. it’s quibbling; if 0M is showing his Islamophobia, you are showing your Hinduphobia.
People who are acutely status conscious and know which caste is below them and which is above them are not “democratic” in any way shape or form.
Democracy holds equal citizenship as a core premise. The Declaration of Independence states “All men are created equal”.
This is not “Hinduphobia” but a matter of fact.
Democracy came to South Asia (not just India) as a consequence of the colonial encounter. Again, this is a matter of historical fact.
That should make the success for the Indian Republic an even greater achievement and the failure of the Islamic Republic a damning failure.
//You do realise India’s reservation system precisely penalises the Brahmins & UCs.//
It really does not. Majority of education in India is private which does not have any sort of reservation.
Recruitment in govt jobs is declining in favor of contract work where the communities mentioned are predominant in management roles.
And the real problem with reservatiom in public educational institutions is the lack of them not that they have reservation.
Reservation is not a favor that is given at the cost of the privilege of some communities, it is a right that recognizer the history of discrimination in this country and responsibility of the state to rectify it.
Making the general category the center of it either as sacrificial lambs or as victims obscures very basic things that should be common knowledge
oh my Lord Calvin, haha you really want a 1,000 comment thread on BP 🙂
If some people who browse this site learn that historically under priveleged sections getting an easier ride, even if their family member may have used it, is not going against merit and this discourse is used to obfuscate, the failure of many other issues that should get more anger.
Thomas Sowell: ” If any country has gotten affirmative action completely wrong, it is India”.
Too much is wrong with India’s reservation system to capture in one comment but it has failed and has only served to further marginalize the already weak.
Thomas Sowell is neither from India, nor knows its conditions and frankly, the reservation system is doing exactly what it is meant to do. Ensuring that the student body is diverse and not overwhelmingly from privileged sections of this country.
It is the other systems that have failed, whose failure many privelged sections dont want to call out for reasons best known to them.
“Ensuring that the student body is diverse and not overwhelmingly from privileged sections of this country.”
The exact opposite has happened and there are hard statistics to prove it.
“Thomas Sowell is neither from India..blah blah”…. you are obviously clueless about Sowell’s seminal work on affirmative action around the world.
I would have thrown hard statistics at you to make the above points but nothing can stop you from talking even when you know next to nothing about a subject.
I’ve realized this topic of conversation is an intellectual dead end. Its better to keep developing private unis and corporations instead. The state will always be somewhat dysfunctional due to its bizarre recruitment and hiring requirements based on caste.
Yes agreed. Fortunately that is happening at a rapid pace.
If the state fails in its duty of creating more equitable public education and upgrading the standard in its public universities as well as keeping public employment more viable these will also be bought under the ambit of reservation.
Had the discussions on reservation focused more on state failure than ‘merit’ this prospect would be dead in the water.
All great ideas to create a failed state. Equity is a horrible word to involve in discussions regarding private education or employment. We’ve already let our public sector become completely dysfunctional due to these ideas and you want to ensure that the private sector which generates the most value in our economy should also be inflicted with this disease. Again there is no point in arguing about these things because private reservation would be a disastrous to implement and you will support that horrible decision regardless of what I have to say.
Equity is not equality; it is much more interrogated than that fwiw.
+1
Yes, absolutely no point arguing with him. He has zero ground reality experience with this goddamn system that has solved nothing.
I am product of this system and actually learnt why certain things are the way they are by reading authors from India instead of going all the way to the US to find validation for my points.
It is not my fault I did not blame reservation for me or someone else not getting a seat I/ they thought they deserved.
When you reas Sukhdep Thorats own reports on issues in education arising out caste then you judge other people experience or lack thereof.
Many public education institutions regularly top NIRF and global ranking.
Whatever issues that maybe in them are due to bad management.
Last I checked the state spending was one of the biggest drivers of economic.acvivity in India since private investment is floundering. Here too issues are due to bad management not reservation.
Equity, equal access to opportunities, are necessary to keep people believing in social contract in this country. Saying that one modest initiative ruined educational institutes that regularly outcompete private alternatives, companies that are the driving force of our economy and even give good dividends is short sighted.
If you can read Thomas Sowell take some time to read Sukhdeo Thorat or Anand Teltumde or Suraj Yengde as well..I am.not the one who knows next to nothing
The student body has more women and more people from SC/ST/OBC people thsn ever before in public institutions than ever before. What data is there to show that it has failed?
Look at the output. India has fallen behind miserably precisely due to using reservation as crutches much beyond what Ambedkar had envisioned. It is all political theatre. Nobody cares for what can be a level playing field namely Elementary education.
Seen any of these people get treated by a “reserved category” doctor? Or do they send their kids to government schools?
//Look at the output. India has fallen behind miserably precisely due to using reservation as crutches much beyond what Ambedkar had envisioned. It is all political theatre. Nobody cares for what can be a level playing field namely Elementary education.//
Most of the levers of power and industry and education are run by people who never benefitted from reservation. Not to mention that there is hardly any presence of people from reserved categories in many of our private educational institutions, in leadership positions of private companies or at secretary level.
Any failure are due to bad leadership that is largely not from reserved categories. Maybe if we are going to blame communities blame the general category people whose own mediocrity is the reason for the failure you see bit misallocate?
//Seen any of these people get treated by a “reserved category” doctor? Or do they send their kids to government schools?//
Once you get into medical school your NEET score loses its relevance. Nobody see the persons neet score when going to a doctor. This is vacuous argument at the level of Charlie Kirk being afraid that a black female pilot will crash the plane. It is more prejudice and fixation over some glorified eliminators than anything else.
Most govt schools have been neglected if people who complained about reservation spent half the time punching down on reserved people in blaming the state for failing to make good institutions widely available many would be going to govt schools.
Most of the educational institutes in this country are run by politicians, especially MH. It is such a horrible nexus that has created a money making entity out of education. Please point out how many of these are “non-reserved”.
You are doing an active disservice to those who belong to both forward and backward castes who happen to be genuinely smart. The ones from forward castes who get discriminated due to belonging to forward castes but are economically disadvantaged and those who are smart enough not to need crutches but get tarred with those who shamelessly use the system despite not needing it.
Secondly, if present day Muslims and Christians should not be held accountable for the actions of their forefathers, how do you justify still crucifying today’s Brahmins or forward castes for the actions of their forefathers?
You still didn’t answer my question. Will you go to a Dr Misa Bharati? Or send your kids to a govt school? If not all this righteous indignation is just that, all talk.
//Most of the educational institutes in this country are run by politicians, especially MH. It is such a horrible nexus that has created a money making entity out of education. Please point out how many of these are “non-reserved”.//
Most of these are private institutions and have no reservation within them, definitely not due to caste. You are making my point that reservation is the not the reason for failure of many public educational institutions which are still well regarded.
//You are doing an active disservice to those who belong to both forward and backward castes who happen to be genuinely smart. The ones from forward castes who get discriminated due to belonging to forward castes but are economically disadvantaged and those who are smart enough not to need crutches but get tarred with those who shamelessly use the system despite not needing it.//
The marks you get when taking admission dont define you, this weird fixation on qualifying exams is cringe and needs to go.
The reservation in public educational institutions is not to punish everyone but to ensure that all people in this country whose direct and indirect taxation is why these institutions are present in the first place have access to these institutions. If there is a dearth of good quality institiutions petition the government and the bureaucracy to make more of them than getting angry at people exercising their constitiutional rights.
It is not a shameful thing to make use of what advantages you have in life, no one from a GC is shamed if they make use of the one relative or use community hostels to get into good colleges or institutions why should people who are making use of reservation be shamed.
This shaming of others for using their constitutional right is the shameful thing and it is cringe if you think getting a good rank in a qualifying exam means anything in the grand scheme of things, this shaming of others is what is bad behaviour.
//Secondly, if present day Muslims and Christians should not be held accountable for the actions of their forefathers, how do you justify still crucifying today’s Brahmins or forward castes for the actions of their forefathers?//
Brahmins and other forward castes are not being deprived of education, forced to do menial labour, killed if they keep moustaches or marry outside of caste as a state policy. Not being able to access some seats in 5% of all education and employment is not a punishment but making sure everyone who contributes through their labour, indirect taxation, and even direct taxation benefit from the institutions made from those.
Resevation is not punishment, that these communities want to see it as such is their own problem.
Furthermore, many Indian muslims were not part of the empire that ruled this country and did not actively benefit from them. Even many Indian christians were not active beneficiaries of the British or portuguese empire, barring exceptions. It is not relevant to the point, but needed to correct this misconception.
some points on reservation:
1) this is mostly a north indian, especially a gangetic basin issue. here the upper cases are at least 20% of population, and were mostly in govt.jobs. with the introduction of obc quota, this arrangement has gone, hence the angst. on the education front, if the number of seats are increased this issue in education will go away, as was the case of engineering seats in south india. the political power they had has gone to OBCs.
2) south india is settled with respect to reservation as the number of upper castes are less, 3% of population and are reconciled to their secondary role in politics, govt. jobs and govt.seats. further, private sector has provided adequate seats in colleges and in jobs.
3) some angst seen in maratha community in maharastra and in patels of Gujarat, both have been managed.. private sector plays a big role here and the clamour of govt. is less.
4) eastern states, the govt jobs are strong , but the upper castes have adequate representation and hence less angst. virtually all of top politicians of bengal and orissa are upper castes, in spite of significant dalit populations.
5) north east is bad, and hence we see the migration of young educated. not a single upscale restaurant is without northeast boys and girls. in some states, schedule tribe population is 90% as tribal christians are also ST.
adequate seats and jobs will solve the issue of reservation angst. modi knowing very well that he cannot remove reservation, has increased the number of medical seats many fold, increased number of IITs, IIMs,AIIMS. but still the population bulge is creating problems.
Not just increasing seats but making the state colleges both private and public better and more world class.
This needs to increase not only thr funding to many of these colleges but also enforce standards on them to be better.
Since for whatever reason people in all over India, who are from general category like to punch down instead of asking representatives to do better these shallow argulents on reservation continue
IITS, AIIMS, NITS,IIMS on their own will.never be able to take absorb the large student cohort without becoming nothing but glorified schools in the process.
And its amazing how much others enjoy waving the victim card despite obvious progress towards a more equitable future together.
The irony is that you’re the one with the shallow, emotional arguments.
//And its amazing how much others enjoy waving the victim card despite obvious progress towards a more equitable future together.//
People still are made to feel lesser for taking their constitutional right.
We have videos from barely 2 years ago where students from reserved backgrounds were insulted for supposedly lacking intelligence in an IIT itself and most of rhe students who end up committing suicide are from reserved categories largely because of the shaming that is done to them regularly.
No one is crying victim, it is just that the anti reservation discourse silences the people who don’t oppose it.
I have taken the time to listen to all sides and know why reservation is necessary and those opposing it are being distracted from larger failures thst have nothing to do with reservation in thr first place.
I was an IIT Prof who worked on these issues and saw them play out first hand. You know nothing.
You are the person the Feynman quote was referring to.
If you really ars a professor you would know that your personal experience is not substitute for research tjat people like Thorat and Teltumbde have done.
Many IIT professors have also been caught practicing casteism when even deserving candidates from reserved categories are about to join their depts so it is not like your supposed past as a professor makes your refusal to engage with Indian voices who ate anti caste and hence pro reservation any better.
If you can invalidate his opinions based on some previous faults of other actors so can he. There is no conversation to be had on this topic as you will look to invalidate any opinions that don’t fit in with yours.
+1
Lets be very clear.
There are very few instances of someone from a general category being mistreated in comparison to people from reserved category. If you are so hurt and the response is to go deeper into the anti reservation spiral that is upheld by outdated argument which either wrongfully blame reserved people instead of the non reserved people at the top for failure for institutional failure or act as if anyone speaking about the presence of casteism is wrong despite their scholarship being recognizer globally, then what arguments do you really have?
You think this is the first time someone has treated reservation as some sort og revenge or brought out Sowell to argue agsinst it? Many anti reservation arguments and failure of those who use them to criticize those actually responsible for failure blamed on reservation have been known to everyone who can see since 2014 easily.
These kinds of things need a direct approach for people to even begin considering them.
Wow! Your prejudice is deep.
Feynman was talking about the likes of Yengde and Teltumbde.
Yengde and Teltumde know what they are talking about. Unlike the Nobel laureates and phd who were talking outside their field.
The same cant be said about those who wrongfully blame reservation for failure of Indian institutions when they are not even in the driving seat in almost all cases. That is real Prejudice, that and making nonsense arguments about a score in a test being a determinant in how someone will.be professionally.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/iit-professor-s-remarks-on-sc-st-students-trigger-row-101619462958631-amp.html
Example 1 of why being a professor from IIT does not make your anti reservation views automatically moe valid.
These types make the news, not the reverse. Selection bias.
Yes, yes things that show the reality of casteism in our country even amongst professor at IITs and IIMs are selection bias.
Not blaming reserved category people for failure of institutions when it is general category people who are in leadership positions.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/iit-kanpur-vendetta-against-dalit-teacher-flayed/article26738022.ece/amp/
Example 2 of why being an iit professor does not mean your anti reservation views are valid.
Btw an internal committee in the iit itself found the professor was discriminated.
Thanks a lot. When i was at IIT, I wasnt paid for the first 3 months due to a clerical glitch. When i went to talk to the clerk and complained, he told me ” you dirty upper caste fellow. let me see what you can do. I will just file a caste atrocity case against you and see what trouble you will be in”..
There are always multiple sides to experiences within Indian institutions.
You are a broken record with a prejudice so deep rooted it is totally pointless engaging with you.
The cases I brought up actually have evidence behind them.
Did you complain to your head of department? Demand a hearing? I know that the IITs have robust mechanism to deal with personnel issues and even renowned professors cant avoid disciplinary action. It is unlikely that this person would have not been punished for speaking like this to a professor.
I can bring up many other recorded instances of caste discrimination by professors against SC/ST students, bias in recruitment and harassment from many indiaan universities. That none of them lead you to have even a little empathy towards those less fortunate from you and see your experience is an exception to the rule is unfortunate. It is why personal experience is no substitute for research that only shows it is the people who are from reserved categories who bear the brunt of Prejudice.
Anybody who knows the SC/ST act will know what the ground reality is.
One colleague who complained about a similar situation was told this was a private matter between individuals and nothing to do with the institute. These incidents are not even recorded because its the other way around.
This is why I told you, you know nothing and its pointless talking to you. Your empty cranium and its echoes are your own burden.
//Anybody who knows the SC/ST act will know what the ground reality is.//
The SC/ST has at least 39% conviction unlike many other laws that presume guilt by definition that dont even cross 10% like PMLA that does not stop you from assuming people are if they happen to be from communities they dont like.
It is very well know the Prejudice against SC/St in India that makes these kinds of laws necessary especially in rural Indis where they are used.
As I have mentioned, your personal experiences don’t wipe out the very clear pattern of discrimination to the other side. The incidents where general category people are the victims are not well known, even when they can get the same amount of attention as many SC/ST do by complaining or can do the hard work of compiling a list of these kinds of incidents like others do, is their rarity.
Please look beyond your own personal experience to what data and research says to see how common it is for reserved category people to be mistreated. And if you think that general category people are more mistreated then compile it and make it viral, there are plenty of influencers who will love to publicize this kind of thing.
Dont just use your personal experience to justify scorn towards others.
There’s a problem with the data though.
Most coercion cases do not go to court. The police love this act because they are perpetually settling cases out of court.
I agree with you that a data driven approach is necessary, do you have a good data set to suggest?
IMHO this act really hurts SC/ST’s more than anything else.
If you were starting a small business in India, would you knowingly hire an SC/ST worker knowing that everyday you run the gauntlet of being booked under this act?
What do you do if you catch someone stealing from you?
What do you think is more probable, that they fess up and accept jail time, or file an atrocity case against you?
So, you need a large business with many witnesses and a middle manager to shield yourself from a false accusation.
As is always the case, terrible laws often have the exact opposite effect of their intention.
Many business in our information sector already hire SC/ST communities for labour related tasks
And even without SC/ST act people from these communities have difficulties getting hired, getting housing and being recognized. We already live in a society that penalizes these people for their identity. This law is just a way of ensuring that these penalization dont result in violence.
Why do you think business owner should not avoid using casteist insults or not inflict violence and social boycott on people which is what the SC/ST act penalizes.
//IMHO this act really hurts SC/ST’s more than anything else.//
The SC/ST are the only people who can decide if this act hurts them. I have never come across anyone from this community saying that it does.
//There’s a problem with the data though.
Most coercion cases do not go to court. The police love this act because they are perpetually settling cases out of court.//
Most cases in Indian dont go to court apparently. If among the ones that do 40% result in a conviction that is a good number among laws that overturn innocence until proven guilty. In many other laws like PMLA, the number are even worse. I dont see the anger and concerns for misuse amongst these laws from the people who are concerned about SC/ST act.
I don’t understand this response. Did you miss my point?
The IT sector is not a small business, it is hard to make a false accusation with many witnesses.
Owners do not hire people expecting to insult them or perform an atrocity. They however do expect to be able to have recourse when the employee behaves badly.
Esp in urban areas, this law is doubly meaningless, many employers do not know the caste. But learn the hard way when an accusation is made. Anecdotally I know of 2 seperate cases, they were both dealing with theft, both settled by the police. 1 where the thief ended up being paid, 1 they were able to gather some witnesses and get it dropped.
If you want to avoid this point, that it raises the bar for sc/st employment, continue advocating for a poor law.
It’s a bit like rent control. Almost always results in higher rents and exacerbates a housing shortage.
Also It’s pure whataboutism asking why people don’t object to PMLA, how is this an argument? You don’t know my position on the act, it’s not what’s being discussed
Most of the cases under the SC/ST act are u rural.areas not urban areas
It is also a myth that people dont know about caste in urban areas. There is a proven hiring bias when it comes to hiring both muslims and dalits
This is rather old but the point still stands
https://gsdrc.org/document-library/urban-labour-market-discrimination/
The people in your example who would be hesitant would either not have hired people from these communities in the first place and the example you quote dont undermine a much more widely observed pattern that barriers to enter exist for SC/St candiates to begin with.
It is not hard to build a rapport with your employees nor does the SC/ST act give a blanket exemption to all crimes committed by people.
It requires very specific acts of violence and verbal abuse to be applied.
The example of PMLA is to bring up that the SC/ST act is not the only example of laws that overturn innocent until proven guilty, but because the accused are most likely to be people many on this site feel familiarity with, that is a concern. Otherwise the last week itself showed multiple examples when this principle us jettisoned entirely.
>>>It is also a myth that people dont know about caste in urban areas
This is quite a sweeping statement.
Caste, especially dalit castes in south india are very localised, when they migrate to urban areas it is very difficult to know, the more cosmopolitan the less obvious. I know the people involved in these cases. You will just have to accept that my lived experience is not a myth.
Or not. Maybe the universe is a construct.
Your lived experience is not shared amongst the vast,vast majority of cases where SC/ST people dont misuse the law or use it to file false cases. There are other laws where the sole purpose is to be misused but not this one.
You dont get a reasonably high conviction rate for such type of laws without many of them being sincere
Many SC/ST people themselves deny that their caste is not difficult to know and that it is not sussed out. Their own lived experience points to being made to feel lesser and judged for their identity.
You are worried about the innocent business owner who may feel scared to hire someone from SC/ST background but data shows many who have these thoughts would not have hired in the first place.
The SC/ST offense Still needs to be proven and if someone cant prove an offense which would be very easy for any business owner to do the SC person can make themselves liable to prosecution themselves on top of having their reputation tarnished in the industry. Why you did not think that in urban areas this can rebound badly on the SC/ST complainant is something you need to reflect on.
You clearly have had no practical experience with the act.
The owners I am talking about had hired and had no idea until they had a case slapped against them. Now they very carefully make sure that they are not in a position to experience it again.
They also complain bitterly about their experience to other people.
FWIW, I am not really worried about the owners, they paid/influenced their way out of it. I am worried about the SC/ST who keeps feeling the system is rigged against them.
In even serious crimes 10% of all cases turn out to be fake. This includes assault, murder and rape.
The amount of fake cases as per the police itself hovers around 10% not too different from normal.
Why do you think one fake cases invalidates the whole act if someone is falsely accused of murder does that mean we should stop prosecuting murder?
The SC/ST people are very happy with this act because they know that this is the only way the 90% of possibly genuine cases can be prosecuted and behavioral changes effected. Some people who would rather judge the whole community negatively as a whole for act of single individual or some business owners who would probably never have hired SC/ST people in the first place, being more vigilant is not a price they mind paying for keeping this law.
Maybe you should try to understand why that is instead of using the people who judge too soon to tarnish a law the intended beneficiaries clearly love.
Carry on, it is quite obvious to me, you have no idea what you are talking about. The act looks good on paper. like so many other acts, the road to hell is paved with poor implementation and bad acts
Rent control : reduces housing availability and quality raising rents
SC/ST Atrocity act: reduces employability and increases discrimination
Right to education: drops number of schools due to onerous compliance thereby reducing education availability
Child labour act: forces child labour underground and depresses wages and working conditions for children
Just stupid well meaning idiocy.
I feel like every social justice act needs to be reviewed every 10 years to study its effects comprehensively.
Hi guys just as an fyi it would be nice if the language was more courteous to one another..
Too much talking past each other gets frustrating. Am going to drop it.
Apologies.
No it’s
Fine – as I tell everyone write a post when the thread gets too long 😉
//Carry on, it is quite obvious to me, you have no idea what you are talking about. The act looks good on paper. like so many other acts, the road to hell is paved with poor implementation and bad acts//
It is more than obvious that you have all the time in the world to speak to people with judgemental attitude towards SC/STs in the first place and think their Prejudice should be validated instead of going to see why do SC/ST want this act so much. They know very well people who would judge a whole community because some people misuse an act and who would use it as an excuse to not hire them would find another way to do the same activities.
For the 90% of cases that aren’t false this is a great tool to seek justice. You dont want to get the view of the beneficiaries and clearly priorities the views of those who may find themselves a victim it is your choice.
You can a 100 reviews every year, these acts would still be present because they are doing exactly what they were made for to make casteists of all.varieties aware that they are consequences to their actions.
//Child labour act: forces child labour underground and depresses wages and working conditions for children//
Whao!! This is a real one so your answer to people flouting the law is to remove it entirely. Anything to ensure that the govt is not pressured to discharge its duties I suppose.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=7040819
Here is another more recent paper showing discrimination is prevalent.
How silly, I am arguing that SC/ST’s are discriminated against, and you send me a paper saying the same thing.
The act just makes it worse.
It does not.
It is absolutely needed in rural areas.
And the casteist individuals who would be thinking that this could lead to problem would never have hired individuals from that communitiy in the first place.
Why do you think that someone does not need to prove an offense happened? Did it not cross your mind that the person who puts this kind of complaint is also putting their reputation and career on thr line given that in all likelihood they cant depend on their coworkers to support them and other businesses managed by getting general category people also would side with the alleged perpetrator destroying their career if they throw a false allegation under this act?
It really did not occur to you that it can negativelt impacr the complainant more if they throw false accusations?
This act if anything helps people who society is extremely willing to judge negatively fight back and your whole example ironically shows why it is necessary.
Once again, you seem to have zero practical experience. The complainant simply moves town/area once they are caught stealing.
Reputation is already destroyed with the first act of dishonesty, the SC/ST act is simply a get out of jail free for the misuser.
The truly destitute do not have the wherewithal to go to a police station and make a complaint, or to fight it out in court, attending court dates, whatnot.
Also, very annoyingly, you keep abusing the people I know, portraying them as some sort of casteist wretches. This is the 4rth time I am mentioning this, they did not know or bothered to check anyone’s caste identity until they were hauled upto the police station.
If you have so much time to think that one bad example is universal or that there are not 100s of cases of this act being applied to people that actually deserve it then you should also spend some time to reach out to the people who this act actually benefits.
It is not the act that is the problem it is a Prejudice that thinks that thr people who have been historically discriminated who because of this swear by this act are not worth listening to.
This is a prejudice that thinks every person is going to misuse this act, rather that this might be the lifeline for many and it is the govts responsibility to discharge and penalise fake cases, even murder accusations end up being false would you remove murder as a criminal category.
I am not the one who has a one sided view of things.
Its…interesting how the yardstick for how …’perfect’ a law must be instantly changes when the perception of the constituency is different.
Calvin is fine with “10%” or so abuse of this law because it addresses a known problem. One that is clearly very dear to his heart. The same Calvin was up in arms over SIR stuff in Bengal, and presumably the CAA. In those cases, the ‘good intentions’ weren’t enough, and everything had to perfect, else the law had to be thrown out and fought against.
Folks really should make an attempt to rise above tribal perspectives on policy discussions.
I don’t think anyone can honestly argue or claim that caste discrimination is not an issue in India. That isn’t even up for debate.
The challenge is the policy and legal frameworks that are written into law and their execution. The efficacy and whether their consequences – intentional or otherwise, end up serving the purpose.
//Folks really should make an attempt to rise above tribal perspectives on policy discussions.//
Please look at your own responses and take your own advice.
//Calvin is fine with “10%” or so abuse of this law because it addresses a known problem. One that is clearly very dear to his heart. The same Calvin was up in arms over SIR stuff in Bengal, and presumably the CAA. In those cases, the ‘good intentions’ weren’t enough, and everything had to perfect, else the law had to be thrown out and fought against.//
The way people are talking about false cases, it is like every alternate case is false case but even the police who have an actual idea since they do actual investigation is that number is close to 10% which is standard for most Indian laws, people who dont have a problem when other laws are misused but get angry when the SC/ST act is misused should see their biases now.
We dont even have a way to establish citizenship, it is a labyrintine setup where you need to constantly prove yourself a citizen with rules you are not clear about. It is very clear how to prove you did not violate the SC/ST act in comparison, I have never said anything about the CAA, mostly because the 2014 cutoff and the requirements of extensive documentation makes the act usless for recent migrants and difficult to navigate for those before them.
//The challenge is the policy and legal frameworks that are written into law and their execution. The efficacy and whether their consequences – intentional or otherwise, end up serving the purpose.//
If this much is obvious you should try to explain to others that people filing false cases does not invalidate a law, that is helpful and useful in most other categories. For once, put the onus on the govt to do its job rather than punching down on a community.
***Brahmins and other forward castes are not being deprived of education, forced to do menial labour, killed if they keep moustaches or marry outside of caste as a state policy. Not being able to access some seats in 5% of all education and employment is not a punishment but making sure everyone who contributes through their labour, indirect taxation, and even direct taxation benefit from the institutions made from those.***
This is such a gross generalization. Do you have any idea how untrue this is? In most cases, it is economic backwardness that defines access to education.
Do not mix issues. General caste discrimination is rampant, that it is unforgivable is something I’m in strong agreement with. It’s become more subtle and just like racism, it can never really go away unless people challenge those ridiculous notions themselves, not prodded by laws or the government.
//This is such a gross generalization. Do you have any idea how untrue this is? In most cases, it is economic backwardness that defines access to education.//
Being pro resrvation is a question about whether you are against casteism. Since reservation is one of the few things ensuring that people from historically disadvantages categories have access to institutions their labour also created.
What exactly am I generalising? Did people from disadvantages communities not be deprived of good quality education? Do people from disadvantaged communicties not have to face trouble for keeping moustaches or going on a baarat?
You are treating reservation as some sort of punishment towards GC but it is not. You are not being subjected to half of what many disadvantaged communties have been subjected to for centuries. How is reservation a punishment?
/_It’s become more subtle and just like racism, it can never really go away unless people challenge those ridiculous notions themselves, not prodded by laws or the government//
Laws by the govt that penalize bad behavior is why casteists of all religion and backgrounds need to be careful. It is a great way to bring change behaviour within a generation.
BTW the laws have gotten so bad that even ministers are being charged under the SC/ST law with little to no recourse. In a 100 years perhaps it will the general category which will carry the grouse of being jailed without evidence.
Most of the SC/ST acts dont result in a conviction and violence against SC/STs is still in the thousands.
The entire point of the Indian judicial process is that the process is the punishment. You waste thousands of man hours in a procedure that leads nowhere. SC/ST act allows a person to accuse anyone without the burden of proof.
In many Indian villages people from SC/St backgrounds are marginalised living in the worst areas, with little recourse against their more dominant caste neighbours.
The burden of proof is less because the entire local machinery would not even move an inch to give justice otherwise.
Anyways the majority of people who are accused due to this are OBCs and from rural India, where this is needed.
Let’s be real Calvin. There is no defending the SC/ST act in its current state. It is by definition guilty until proven innocent. The only thing you’ve done is justified all your actions by credentialism and then declared everyone else a heretic or a heathen. Just because there are issues in Indian villages shouldn’t mean you can declare an entire class of people as proto-criminals who need to prove their innocence until then they are presumed to be guilty.
When it comes to a group of people who are seen as lower, whose dignity can be trampled upon without recourse you need laws like this
If SC/STs did not have a history of being at the receiving end of violence from.geoups around them, if they were not scorned then laws like the SC/ST act would not be needed. But we live in a society where Prejudice and violence is normalized. Between the people who oppress and who are oppressed my sympathies and support is with the oppressed:
It is not like you can willy-nilly apply SC/ST act:
Social exclusion (e.g., denying access to public spaces)
Physical violence (e.g., assault, rape, murder)
Economic exploitation (e.g., land grabbing, bonded labor)
Humiliation and verbal abuse based on caste identity
It is very easy for someone from a dominant caste to not to any of the above and be respectful all it needs is little sensitization. Maybe more focus should be given on this.
//The only thing you’ve done is justified all your actions by credentialism and then declared everyone else a heretic or a heathen.//
I have not called anyone a heretic or a heathen. I dont really care what you think at the end of day. And what credentialism have I used in this discussion?
Many of the my retorts to reservation being responsible for Indian institutional decline, or beint a punishment or being justified by bad experience are based on logical counters to them not using Yengde or Thorat or Teltumbdes credentials, you dont need to read these guys to know why the above arguments are against reservation are wrong.
As far as SC/St cases are concerned, even the center disagrees with contention that this is being misused.
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tardy-prosecution-to-blame-for-acquittals-in-scst-atrocities-cases-centre-tells-supreme-court/article25549774.ece
Social exclusion and Verbal Abuse can be easily faked. It ends up becoming a he-said-she-said argument with the accused being forced to prove their innocence. You can clearly see how this is ripe for abuse right? Quite recently a minister had an FIR filed against him under the SC/ST act because he didn’t mention Ambedkar in his speech. If a minister can’t get past that kind of a lawsuit without the help of MH assembly then you can think how bad its been for the avg person until recently. Even the Supreme Court admits that there has been misuse of the law.
https://www.opindia.com/news-updates/prakash-ambedkar-demands-fir-against-girish-mahajan-under-sc-st-atrocity-act-for-not-mentioning-br-ambedkar-in-speech/
BTW its no surprise that the center backs this bill because it was responsible for strengthening it in the first place. So you and Modi govt are in accordance here. How does it feel being a shill for the govt for once.
Me supporting the govt here is not me being a shill. It just goes to show how deeply rooted Prejudice is against SC/St thst even a party like the BJP that is loved by same general category people who hate reservation, cant deny it. Do you consider your support of the ruling party as shilling? Very good candor.
Social exclusions is very easily proven. In many cases the people doing the social exclusion are themselves boasting about it
https://theprint.in/india/omission-of-ambedkars-name-row-mahajan-should-tender-written-apology-says-forest-dept-staffer/2838034/
You should read more about thr example you use, the SC/ST act does not apply in this case, courtesy to his precise wording thst neither you nor thr person who was raising the complaint seem to know about. It shows that unlike many other laws, such as sectio. 299 of BNS that targets hurt feelings, where broad wording makes anyone a victim if someone takes offense even for misunderstanding.
Had this person done the complaint under that section she would have not only gotten a case filed but you also would not have beem outraged at the ease with which one can file a case under that section.
You’ve gone around accusing other people of being “ruling party supporters” without any such evidence so I feel free to do so to you at any given point.
You still refuse to admit the worst part of the SC/ST act. That it is by definition guilty until proven innocent. In every one of those cases the accused has to argue that they are innocent from a position of weakness. This is by definition not how law is supposed to work in any working institution. The fact that the case was filed under the SC/ST act demonstrates that it is often used as a cudgel against other communities.
If you refuse to admit to reality on even the most milk toast topics I have no hope of ever reaching any agreement with you.
//You’ve gone around accusing other people of being “ruling party supporters” without any such evidence so I feel free to do so to you at any given point.%//
Many here are ruling party supporters, you openly admit to this. The fee people who try to claim they reluctantly do so, belive narratives that encouragr hostility towards their opponents very easily and have clear double standards. If you dont want to be called a ruling party supporter dont reflexively belive any nasty narrative against their opponent and at least show som anger towards the ruling party when it goes against thr narratives it instigated amongst you guy. Otherwise there is no shape in admitting support for your favorite party.
That even I can see that are right about something when I have been critical elsewhere shows that I am far from a shill.
//You still refuse to admit the worst part of the SC/ST act. That it is by definition guilty until proven innocent. In every one of those cases the accused has to argue that they are innocent from a position of weakness. This is by definition not how law is supposed to work in any working institution. The fact that the case was filed under the SC/ST act demonstrates that it is often used as a cudgel against other communities.//
It was not filed against the SC/St sct read your own sources once in a while.
A lot of similar laws have been used against opponents of your favorite party. I have never seen you express any indignation against PMLA, section 299 and many others that overturn innocence until guilt is proven. If we have accepted overturning of this principle in many other instances despite criticism then you have to make peace with the fact that being violent and casteist is as bad as money laundering or insulting someones religious beliefs.
The day you go against these other laws then you can complain about the injustice of SC/ST act
//If you refuse to admit to reality on even the most milk toast topics I have no hope of ever reaching any agreement with you.//
You want to reach an agreement then do some self reflection instead of pontificating about others who you disagree with? If you have accepted laws like PMLA, like section 299 why is thr SC/ST act in particular bothering. When it is the outgroup then it is ok yo overturn innocent until proven guilty.
>How does it feel being a shill for the govt for once.
LOL. Yeah, According to Brother Calvin, if you support some or any elements of the current administration’s policies you are somehow a closet BJP ‘bhakt’.
I call people BJP supporters because of their enthusiasm in beleiving any nasty narrative about about those who oppose them.
The fact that many fell hook, line and sinker for the negative coverage of protestors and did not correct course even after the people who spread these narratives backtracked quite visibly is what makes them BJP supporters, and also many are not ashamed to admit they support the current PM.
You dont want to be called a supporter, dont believe any nonsense spread about those who are their opponents and show clearly more enthusiasm in putting them down.
You are…exhibiting the exact tendency that I was referring to.
Simply because I do not extend the same benefit of doubt that You do, to the CJP and its overtly political motivations, I am somehow a ‘blanket supporter of the current administration’.
I’m a BJP skeptic. But I’m a greater skeptic of the Congress and also these CJP clown-activists.
Yet, because the latter challenges your perspective, you want to pigeonhole me as a “BJP supporter”.
This is a typical tribalism of the LeLi kind – ‘if you are not with us, you are against us’ mindset.
//Simply because I do not extend the same benefit of doubt that You do, to the CJP and its overtly political motivations, I am somehow a ‘blanket supporter of the current administration’.//
You were legtimately throwing the exact false allegations that the other open BJP supporters were.
//I’m a BJP skeptic. But I’m a greater skeptic of the Congress and also these CJP clown-activists.
Yet, because the latter challenges your perspective, you want to pigeonhole me as a “BJP supporter”.//
Since at least 2020, this kind of suble support to the BJP is rightly seen for what it is. I have never seen you criticiize the BJP in as harsh of a terms as you have their opponents, you also are not even angry at the BJP for instigating you with false narratives like many others, and then you try to act like you are skeptical of them.
What you are calling tribalism is once again a projection on your part because you dont know that this kind osupportive neutrality has been seen and understood for the farce since 2020. You really need to update your cultural vocabulary.
I dont consider you or anyone else my enemy but the words of many supporters of a party and the actions of their supporters elsewhere show that this is not necessarily the case with others, no matter how reluctant they are.
Way to change the goalposts.
***You are treating reservation as some sort of punishment towards GC but it is not. You are not being subjected to half of what many disadvantaged communties have been subjected to for centuries. How is reservation a punishment?***
Just like Hindus of past were subjected to the horrors under the Mughals and the Portuguese for centuries. So where are those retributions due to us?
Does this mean reservations should continue forever, going against what Ambedkar said? The great man foresaw a situation like this, which is why reservation was time bound.
//Does this mean reservations should continue forever, going against what Ambedkar said? The great man foresaw a situation like this, which is why reservation was time bound.//
Ambedkar wanted reservation for political posts to be limited. He never intended for reservation in education and jobs to be limited because he knew that Prejudice against disadvantaged castes would not go away
//Just like Hindus of past were subjected to the horrors under the Mughals and the Portuguese for centuries. So where are those retributions due to us?//
The mughals are dead and gone. But nothing is stopping you from asking retribution form Ashraf muslims, and the other privileged communities who are from dharmic religions who supported them.
I would love it if for once the Portuguese were asked to pay for the inquisition instead of goan catholics. Dont stop.
THIS whole conversation started because XTM wrongly portrayed reservation as some sort of punishment for casteism which it is not. It is portrayed as such to justify judgement of reserved category people’s capabilities.
You cannot run with the hares and hunt with the hounds. Leaving it here.
I am not the one who is doing any running.
The fact is that almost every objection and point raised has been effectively countered by me.
Please reflect on what I have written so that you can stop holding outdated views on reservation.
The condescension from such a poorly argued perspective is breathtaking. You need to work on convincing people by making good arguments just fyi…and most of your posts are TL;DR.
LeLi habits never change.
//You need to work on convincing people by making good arguments just fyi…and most of your posts are TL;DR.//
I dont care about convincing people who still believe and use outdated and disproven anti reservation narratives, I know very well there is no convincing people who cant take the time to learn about basic history and social situation. Best to just put my point forward and let them ruminate in it
It is also funny that people who love to poke fun and pontificate on this and that characteristic of their ideological opponents can neither take it being done to them, nor seem to have any self reflection they chide others for not having.
Please get out of your bubble for certain things at least, it is personally sad to me, that so many still stand by outdated and easily disproved narrative.
You did not counter a single thing I wrote btw, retreating behind the very same condescension you are projecting onto me. Typical RW projection.
Calvin,
Are you in support of extending reservations to folks who convert ‘out’ of Hinduism?
Awww… do you expect me to say yes. So that you can then put me in some slot in your head, pat yourself on the back and make outdated jokes?
I dont believe the definition, of these categories should be modifed.
So no to SC reservation.
Scheduled Tribes as Supereme Court has said is not dependent on religion but recognition by other tribes, tribal cultural practise and isolation.
OBC is other backward class, which is related to socio-economic backwardness, not religion.
Please try your best not to try to fit it into some dumb caricature and make bad jokes as much as you can. I wish you luck.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3970168
Proof that Ambedkar wanting reservation for 10 years is a lie.
***Furthermore, many Indian muslims were not part of the empire that ruled this country and did not actively benefit from them. Even many Indian christians were not active beneficiaries of the British or portuguese empire, barring exceptions. It is not relevant to the point, but needed to correct this misconception.***
And free govt land with convent schools which used to be the top choice for all middle class folks a couple of decades back were run by the missionary mafia. All gifted by the Brits. Usurpers of our land. Or have you forgotten that? St Stephen’s is notorious for 80% reservation to Christians despite being govt aided.
Madrassas why do they need govt aid? Again draining the Hindus of their hard earned money by subsidizing “Muslim religious educational ” institutes?
You have any objectivity, file an RTI on any minority institution. They are exempt from RTE unlike Hindu run schools. Yet, keep slamming the GC’s. Utterly hypocritical.
//And free govt land with convent schools which used to be the top choice for all middle class folks a couple of decades back were run by the missionary mafia. All gifted by the Brits. Usurpers of our land. Or have you forgotten that? St Stephen’s is notorious for 80% reservation to Christians despite being govt aided.//
Most of the convent schools in India wete made after independence. You have no proof that the majority of convention schools were built on land given by the British. Just another unsubstantiated rumour.
I dont think that st Stephen’s can exceed the 50% limit set by the supreme court. And christians, like Sikhs, muslims, jains, buddhists, linguistic and religious minority Hindus have the right to establish and run schools by their own discretion.
Edit: https://kbssidhu.substack.com/p/st-stephens-college-as-a-christian
St Stephen’s does not have 80% reservation.
Can.you please point me a school run by any hindu organization that has less thsn 80% Hindus or even 20% non hindus. These will be few and far between because of demographic dominance but christians being 80% in St Stephen’s is somehow a problem. Even st Stephen’s is an exception because almost 70% of students in christian run schools are non christian.
//Madrassas why do they need govt aid? Again draining the Hindus of their hard earned money by subsidizing “Muslim religious educational ” institutes?//
Everyone pays tax. Some just do it through indirect means. Dont say nonsense like only one community pays tax when everyone pays GST.
And because of that even state sponsored gururkuls are supported by christoan and muslims tax payer money.
Why is this done? Because for the miniscule minority who use madrassas like the miniscule minority who use gurukuls this is not only their only way of education but also a way of preserving culture as well.
//You have any objectivity, file an RTI on any minority institution. They are exempt from RTE unlike Hindu run schools. Yet, keep slamming the GC’s. Utterly hypocritical.//
RTE exempts hindu run schools as well. Since you seem to be from maharashtra you should know that Sindhi, Gujarati and even Hindi speakers are exmeplt from RTE. The RTE mandated that the govt pay for the fees of disadvantaged students to all schools not under linguistic or religious minority. It is not something only on hindus especially when even Hindus in J and K and punjab and northeastern states can avail of these exceptions
If people who were angry at christians for using their constitutional right would direct even half their ire to the govt for failing to discharge their own obligations either most Hindu run schools would be queuing to take in more disadvantages students, this condition would be removed or it would be madr applicable to even linguistic and religious minority but some people want to be angry for others using constitutional rights that are religion neutral.
do you want me to make you Author?
***Most of the convent schools in India wete made after independence. You have no proof that the majority of convention schools were built on land given by the British. Just another unsubstantiated rumour.***
Absolute rubbish. Your bias and zero knowledge is showing. The convent of Jesus and Mary which oversees all the Christian schools in Pune dates back to 1860.
//Under the Right to Education (RTE) Act of 2009 in India, non-minority private schools (including Hindu-managed private unaided schools) must reserve 25% of their entry-level seats for children from economically weaker and disadvantaged sections. However, institutions imparting pure religious education, Vedic pathshalas, and madrasas are exempt from these mandates.// Google is your friend, use it and get those biased blinkers off!
Linguistic minority ars also considered minority in India. Jains, marwairs, Gujarati and Hindi speakers in maharashtra are exempt from RTE. This is basic knowledge that chat got will also tell you.
Please direct some of your ire towards the govt that is not fulfilling their responsibility to pay for these students. For once stop getting angry at people us8ng their constitutional rights.
//Absolute rubbish. Your bias and zero knowledge is showing. The convent of Jesus and Mary which oversees all the Christian schools in Pune dates back to 1860.//
This is one congregation which when I looked into has only two schools under it the oldest from 1960!
There are about 55000 schools run by christian organization’s within India, across denominations. The majoroty of these are made after independence.
Not all christosn schools in India are linked to one organization.
I still remember naive me being shocked when my friend’s mom narrated a story of how she tried to get her daughter admitted to one of Calcutta’s schools. They said admission had a waiting list, but perhaps if the family converted an exception could be made.
This dated back to the 1980s, I ….doubt whether such things are so overt these days. But when I heard about this (during my college years) I was a full blown aspiring ‘Leli’. 😀
“State sponsored gurukuls”? TIL. Can you provide more info?
Financial Assistance for Promotion of Guru-Shishya Parampara (Repertory grant) | Ministry of Culture
I have been telling you, your media is failing you.
“my” media? Lol.
bro, bulk of these grants are going to arts institutions – music, dance, theatre etc.
Why are you pretending this is some sort of Hindu religious school program?
Brother Calvin, you need to acknowledge that you were playing fast and loose with facts in your argument here 🙂
It do ……..be lookin’ like its “your” media that is failing you 🙂
Nope…
AU4260.pdf
I forgot to add the below one as well.
Ok, at a minimum, you quoted the wrong program. Because the ‘Guru-Shishya Parampara’ program is explicitly directed for arts.
Secondly, throwing a 10 year old “Lok Sabha question” referencing all of 3 crore spend is….not really the evidence you think it is.
Now is it possible that GoI is providing funding to gurukuls? Possibly. Both of us can look into it further. But I think any objective conclusion on the discussion thus far, and the information tabled at this point, would have to conclude that your assertion as of now, is lacking evidence and grossly exaggerated.
Especially if all that you can conjure up is 3 crore national spend in 2016.
In contrast, the state of West Bengal alone spent more than 5000 crore on Madrasas I think last year?
Mamata Banerjee west bengal also built a massive tenple in digha, gave money to organizer’s durga Puja, in some places even Hanuman Jayanti and paid money to pandits as well.
What are you exactly arguing against? That money is not spent on supporting traditional religious education among hindus?
//You still didn’t answer my question. Will you go to a Dr Misa Bharati? Or send your kids to a govt school? If not all this righteous indignation is just that, all talk.//
I never have and never will not trust someone who does have a degree from a recognized univeristy, with no history of patient dying or getting worse.
Kendriya Vidyalays are govt schools right? If I was in Kerala and lived near these below schools would definitely consider, since I know that the govt there is investing in these institutions.
Kerala schools put up stellar show in national education world rankings
“Kendriya Vidyalayas are govt schools right?”
Not for civilians. Set up by an Indian Air Force officer and meant for armed forces children and other government employees who have transferrable jobs. Exceptions are made for civilians only if empty seats remain after everyone eligible is accommodated or if the civilian is able to bribe someone, or their Member of Parliament writes a letter and pressurizes the school ( Modi put an end to this nonsense ).
I am a KV product.
“Kendriya Vidyalayas are govt schools right? If I was in Kerala and lived near these below schools would definitely consider, since I know that the govt there is investing in these institutions.”
LOL…
KV is central schooling system. The KVs are fully financed, managed, and controlled by the central government through the Ministry of Education.
You really know nothing.
https://www.newindianexpress.com/states/kerala/2025/Sep/30/kerala-schools-put-up-stellar-show-in-national-education-world-rankings
I was referring to the schools above that are invested in. If i had a child I would not mind putting them there.
The KV example was to show that not all govt schools are bad. KB schools and those like thr above in kerala are good schools that have had investment put in them. This shows that if the attention is given even govt schools can shine.
If this anti reservation discourse were to ever stop punching down on people exercising their constitutional rights and direct aome of their ire to the state maybr something good could happen. Basic things that surprisingly your personal experience does not make obvious.
Your words were crystal clear. Once your ignorance was pointed out, are trying to wiggle your way out with a new twist.
It is totally pointless engaging with you. I wont be responding to you anymore on this issue.
Break up the SC/ST categories and check which communities within them has got what and correlate that to their relative economic prosperity and political presence.
The problem is even worse for OBC categories. Don’t care about the names you have shared because i have interacted with some of them and they are the privately complete racists and bigots.
I have been a part of the system at the edge where the rubber hits the road and I repeat : you know next to nothing.
//Break up the SC/ST categories and check which communities within them has got what and correlate that to their relative economic prosperity and political presence.
The problem is even worse for OBC categories. //
Some categories gaining over others is a consequence of graded inequality present in Indian society. This is what subcategorization and creamy layer hope to resolve. Anyways as long as access to good education remains limited reservations is the only way to ensure diverse representation.
//Don’t care about the names you have shared because i have interacted with some of them and they are the privately complete racists and bigots.//
Assuming things about other people because you have had bad experiences with those similar to them is what is really bigoted. Punching down on others for failure that stem from bad mismanagement by people who lead organization that havr never used reservation and are not populated by people who use reservation is what is really bigoted.
Still holding onto the grief of having lost some seat to someone who had a constitutional right to reservation is what is bigoted.
The scholars who I havr mentioned that you think you are too good to read about are as far from bigotry as one can be.
//I have been a part of the system at the edge where the rubber hits the road and I repeat : you know next to nothing.//
You dont know who Sukhdeo Thorat is whose surveys have brought out the reality of casteism thst many people from reserved categories face on Indian campuses as well as the bias in job hiring that reserved category people face. His research is why many pf the recommendation that try to improve experience in many campuses are there in the first place.
Anand Teltumbde is a scholar who has written extensively about caste and the way it operates in modern India.
Suraj Yengde got a whole department created for him at an ivy league college to theories about equity.
What experience can you possibly have if you dont even know who Thorat is and if you blind yourself to any research or survey about the reality of casteism many face in this country on our campuses your knowledge will be half hearted as well. You have to go all the way to US to get someone to support your views. Tells me all I need to know about your experience.
“Suraj Yengde got a whole department created for him at an ivy league college” : America is great
“You have to go all the way to US to get someone to support your views” : America sucks
Knickers in a twist. You know nothing.
Since you seem to think being an american academic is worth something thought to point it out. Not that if he was in India or anywhere else his arguments would be less valid.
Unlike Sowell he actually researches the very thing that is why the reservation system is why it is. All anti reservation narratives, come from a lack of understanding of how caste operate in India.
Thought to point out people from India, who can allow you to understand but alas,I keep on forgetting reading comprehension is in short supply here.
I prefer the stuffed toy for such conversations. You know nothing
Did you look into a mirror while saying this?
“Suraj Yengde” LMAO.
Entirely pointless convo from the start. Anyone who seriously quotes Suraj Yengde as a scholar is as brainwashed as they get. There are also journals for Lesbian Studies in the US which study how sex with cyborg dogs impacts women, the existence of a department is not a sign that the research conducted is anything close to legitimate.
Weaponized victimhood and generating academic slop for it. That’s not…leftist or progressive thought. Its an utter waste of time.
I would argue against that. There is nothing more progressive and leftist than generating pointless academic slop. I know of university towns which are seen by leftists as bastions of their radical though in a sea of red.
When one cannot attack the argument they attack the individual have you even read Teltumbde, Yengde or Thorat with how easily you are dismissing them.
It is funny that you are speaking of a waste of time, when the entire reservation conversation in India ends up being nothing more than an exercise in punching down because everyone seems to have collective amnesia about where the majority of people who run our public and private institutions come from( it is the general category in case you are unaware.)
When I think of passing judgement on flawed leadership, I don’t stop and think which “caste” or general category they are from. This in itself betrays a flawed lens on how one looks at things.
These are choices. And meaningful ones. How you look at issues, choose to define them.
One can choose to fixate on fingerpointing, or actually focus on concrete objectives that move the ball forward.
Yengde and his ilk – I’m sorry, but I will choose to dismiss them with distaste.
Academia and media have been for decades, hijacked and weaponized by folks with a certain mindset. We have just now started to see the pendulum swing back.
//Academia and media have been for decades, hijacked and weaponized by folks with a certain mindset. We have just now started to see the pendulum swing back.//
When you cant argue with facts, you sidetrack with things like this.
//When I think of passing judgement on flawed leadership, I don’t stop and think which “caste” or general category they are from. This in itself betrays a flawed lens on how one looks at things.
These are choices. And meaningful ones. How you look at issues, choose to define them.
One can choose to fixate on fingerpointing, or actually focus on concrete objectives that move the ball forward.//
The whole anti reservation narrative is based on questionging the capability of people who got in through their constitutional rights and even going so far as to blame whatever problems Indias public educational institutions or government offices face on the presence of these people.
Not the ones running it, who dont come from reserved categories. When it comes to where they come from, on accounting for their failure in this sorry states, suddenly we should not judge based on the communities people come from. It would be funny if this massive blindspot would not reproduce itself in every debate on this topic.
Suraj Yngede scholarship does not involve that.
I also quoted Sukhdeo Thorat who is an economsit and Padman Shri Awardee.
Anand Teltumbde was a professor at Goa Institute of Management and has an master degress from IIM-A.
“feminist intersection of how hydroelectric projects in India are patriarchy driven”.
.
I actually read a similar abstract in a thesis paper analyzing how India’s nuclear program disproportionately impacts women, indigenous groups and marginalized communities. And how it reinforces patriarchy. Almost every IIT-ian I have worked with has immense distaste for folks who pedal such agendas.
Lol 😆
Agree. This takes the entire “intersectionality” matrix to an entirely new zombie dimension.
After this, I prefer a conversation with Hobbes 🙂
Even Hobbes, and any academic or person with basic understanding of social sitiuation in India who has matured past the 16 year old self would tell you the same thing.
Even Hobbes would be dismissive of you having to go all the way to the US to get someone to support your incorrect views on reservation.
You’re right. I can directly quote Nehru to oppose reservations. I don’t need Hobbes or any other foreign scholar.
Nehru can be wrong about a lot of things, he was wrong to trust China, wrong to think linguistic states wont be a good thing anf he was wrong about reservation.
I dont hero-worship or think my favorite leaders can do no wrong.
Hobbes the stuffed toy??
No the comic character from Calvin and Hobbes.
yes he is a stuffed toy in the comic..my comment was meant a joke that i preferred talking to a stuffed toy over this Calvin…..I just got confused given how vividly this Calvin was talking about “even hobbes disagreeing with me” 🙂
Wait you actually think I did not know you were referring to Calvin and Hobbes, do you not know what sarcasm is like?
LOL…I was the one being sarcastic..
Even the stuffed toy also disagrees with you btw.
You should read him, he even got invited to IIT Gandhinagar to discuss his views. You will probably learn something.
“Never confuse education with intelligence, you can have a PhD and still be an idiot” — Richard P Feynman
That is only applicable when you talk about things you have not idea in, it is referring to people who get a nobel prize in something and think themselves experts on everything under the sun.
The people I quote have actually researched and backed what they say with relevant data.
Dont bother…he wont get the point.
I get the point, it is just that it is not what they think it means.
How dare IIT Gandhinagar invite someone from all the way in the US….oh wait….mea culpa.America is great in this case.
Him being in a US university has nothing to do with the quality of his arguments, but since you clearly refer to the US for research to validate what you believe, I pointed this out so you will actually learn and read something out of your comfort zone.
LOL…
To all, let us avoid getting into heated arguments.
Thank you
Nope just explaining things in simple language. Even Hobbes would say what I am saying as well.
I think dress evolved to be more homogenous due to globalization and industrialization to some degree. It gets really hard to make an argument that a person should wear their traditional dresses when they can be rather hard wear or expensive to produce. A lot of these traditions were artifacts of the techniques used to make clothing during a time when stitching clothes was rather expensive therefore elaborate wrapping techniques were commonplace in articles such as lungis, and turbans, even the soviets used to have a single piece of cloth with no stitches to use which would be wrapped around their legs in place of socks.
This is just another cope about losing the culture in the name of globalization/ industrialization. Pakistan (and many countries in GCC) do just fine with native dresses, not just for women but for men. This is because the elite still loves to wear and show off their native dresses and the peasants always follow the elite. The fashion industry sets the trends..
Nobody can tell me its more easy & comfortable to wear jeans in 40C heat than it is to wear a Shalwar or a Lungi. It’s just considered low brow.
Amen
There is no shortcut to getting out of poverty and dysfunction, especially in the largest country the world has ever seen.
It requires patient institution-building, perhaps over generations. At India’s income level, is democracy a help or hindrance to this?
Yup, we are natural democrats, but that’s precisely because of our diversity (including caste diversity). But the kind of democracy it’s produced is a spoils system, which is antithetical to institution-building.
Would less democracy be better then? The experience of East Asian countries suggests yes. The experience of India’s neighbors in her periphery suggests no. Perhaps it boils down to the following question: are societal elites more nationalistic or more of the rent-seeking kind?
that is an excellent question..
India is a curious case where democracy was the cost of empire (India is a kind of republican empire in my view) In the run up to independence, the incumbent elite had no way of selling any other framework of rule, it wasn’t even an available option. Regarding Pakistan, do we think that, had it not been a frontline cold war state, would it perform more like the rest of south asia on this index? did that kill the premise of the developmental state? Are mohajirs the custodians of democracy in Pakistan insofar as they brought the liberal urbanism? I know their must be tons of contradictions and nuance and the mqm wasnt exactly devoid of authoritarianism.
Seems to me the only other options would have been (i) communism and (ii) military dictatorship/fascism, led by someone like SCB. But either of these would have been anathema not just to the British but to all Indian party leaders and dynasts (i.e., a political class that had a stake in the existing system). The various kings/dynasts had been so neutered by the British over a century prior that it would have been impossible to create a monarchy (traditional or constitutional).
Pakistan has always been a national security state.
Unfortunately, we have enemies on both borders. We have to be a national security state. Otherwise, we would not have survived.
The Hindu Mahasabha wasn’t an electoral force, and there’s a reason why Bose got sidelined and his influence outside of Bengal and Madras was limited. The industrialists and congress donor class were ardently against him. I’m skeptical that the diverse cultural landscape of the subcontinent would be able to agree to hard authoritarian rule in the mid 20th century
Mohajirs are made irrelevant in Pakistani politics now, they mostly dominate media and commerce but politically do not have much power. Mohajirs also did not care much about democracy, since they controlled the reigns of the state early on and in any election, they would have lost all the power to the landholders in Punjab and Sindh. Currently all the power resides in Punjab & KP. Basically the GT belt from Lahore – Islamabad – Peshawar where 99% of Imran Khan’s politics revolved around.
Pakistan would never have been a democracy since the British never set up any deep institutions in the area that formed Pakistan apart from the Army.
Yes Karachi has been totally eclipsed
Are the fates of Karachi and Kolkata comparable I wonder? Both are port cities with a storied history of commerce. Both withered away after partition violence and cleansing, followed by decades of mismanagement…
There is no comparision. Kolkatta was the largest city in India with the longest British intitutional history. Karachi in 1947 was the 18th largest city and just a small port/vacation spot for British beaureucrats.
Today Kolkatta has declined, while Karachi is probably the largest city of this region and also thriving the most. It’s still the single most important city in Pakistan, thriving, despite its pathetic governance and all of it is by design.
Madras has the longest British history; Fort George etc.
The Madras City Corporation is the second oldest in the world (after the City of London).
Calcutta was the capital, not Madras
Interesting comparison; Karachi is still very important as a Commercial city. Though the establishment of Islamabad sort of created that Peshawar-London triumvirate.
I remember an Indian friend saying Islamabad, built on the jute corp, is what cost East Pakistan.
It would have been better for Pakistan if Karachi had stayed as a capital. It’s a relaxed city.
All third worldists overrate their own ability on the basis of XYZ resource that they have pinned their entire hope on. Bengalis and their Indian advocates did the same with jute, but it was mostly a lie and jute was eventually replaced with synthetic polymers not long after. We have the same BS with Baluch claiming how they would be rich due to minerals or Kashmiris claim how we they would be rich due to water and electricity. Third worldists who don’t have much going on but need to blame the foreigner, just pin their hopes on that one thing they have that is not of their own making.
Quaid and Liaquat presumably did the same.
Among the 3 nations of undivided India; India that is Bharat is the wealthiest and most equal (with the best HDIs).
Bangladesh could become a very successful ethostate (it’s done better than West Pakistan) but even so would do very well to *plug* into a BIG economy.
So the Baluch, Kashmiris and Bengalis are only advocating what was advocated in the ’40s?
In 1940s British had the power to act on the advocacy, Jinnah seized that moment in history. No such opportunity for separation via rallies and speeches is in the offing yet.
Even if the stars align, army’s budget and size will take decades to whittle down enough for there to be a N-S Yemen or Somaliland.
Even if the economy remains mismanaged, just like the Raj was pay-rolled by the British taxpayer: Pakistani army also has a large inflow of forex flowing in, every DHA plot sold to an overseas Pakisani pays for the benefits of the uniformed.
that’s an excellent comment.
Jinnah did the same what? The purpose of Pakistan was not to create the most richest prosperous country measured in shekels per goy, but to preserve Indo Islamic culture and religion from the belligerent Hindu nationalism and rising socialism of the Congress. Jinnah made the argument and got Pakistan.. although it was a moth eaten one.
good point I stand corrected.
that’s a very good point on reflection; Pakistan is a highly interrogated idea precisely because it is “artificial”
it’s not an ethnic state or religious or linguistic or geography or even economic but seems to be a mix of all and none. it’s quite remarkable in that respect.
if only it recentred Dharma.
All these arguments apply to India and more.
India was coined some 3,500 yrs ago; Pakistan in 1936..
But yea even India is greater than the sum of its parts. So a Hindu nation that is fundamentally tolerate and stable and growing fairly quickly.
The term India 3500 years ago was used to refer to the territory of Pakistan.
By logic and by substance, Pakistan is older than India.
Kabir if any Indian or Hindu commentator wrote the way you did; they’d be immediately tarred as a Pakiphobe – Islamophobe.
tone done the language, what is “Hindu rule” for Heaven’s sake.
Pakistan will have to rip the bandaid of the ‘Azad’ in Azad Kashmir. The AJK’s PM, President, … assembly shenanigans have to go. Just like India had to rip off 370.
As was the fashion in mid 20th century, the Mojahir leaders of Pakistan initially complicated it all : calling hill punjabis Azad Kashmir, rolling away the important bits into Gilgit Baltistan, complicated arrangements with China on renegotiating Shaksgam eventually.
All this to have talking points on the table if they lose a war or plebiscite and needed something to kill time while their patrons pressurize India not to humiliate Pakistanis. Basically drawing equivalence between entirety of pre 2019 Indian J&K with their puny AJK for negotiations which is stupid.
Just like princely states, privy purses and titles had to go, just like FATA had to go : the convoluted arrangements on AJK, GB have to go.
These illogical arrangements are the creation of the sly bureaucracy of the British Raj.
Ok, everyone please stop! This is descending into a flame war.
Let us try and keep the quality high of discussion. Request to refrain from any rage baiting, this holds for everyone please, Kabir and OM too.
Enough time has not been wasted yet. Post 2000, they wasted a decade on Afghanistan and aid, then they wasted a decade on waxing about CPEC, Munir-Imran episode should take a decade, we are only a few years in.
I don’t think Pak army goes out of its way to do atrocities.
The regime supporters just switch sides, it is all very convenient, all is quickly forgiven. There will never be a bloody revolution in Pakistan from either side, just court conspiracies.
India is stable because the transfer of power after elections is smooth. Pakistan is stable because change of army chief is smooth.
Modi laid a ‘if-then-else’ trap in inviting Nawaz in 2014, then going to Pakistan, then calling Pakistani investigators for the first time ever in 2016 for Pathankot, and then removing 370.
If the bandaid of special status for AJK and GB is not pulled: more traps will be laid from within and without. These issues are landmines.
In 1970, jute and jute-manufactured goods accounted for approximately 41% of Pakistan’s total international exports.
only one other ex-member of this forum was so judicious on facts 🙂
I have always been Kishore Kumar? I took time off after Kabir, deleted a lot of my well thought out comments. And then you edited out my other comments addressing Nachiketa to intercede on my behalf.
apologies for that; yes that was a terrible period and I’m very sorry about your Lost Writings.
mea culpa
60% of the population yet less than 50% of total exports. Its not the flex you think it is.. and Jute’s relevance was rapidly declining. Bengal was always a one trick pony and still is. The East Wing was a drag on the West. Im glad they separated and have to deal with their cursed geography on their own.
well yes but surely it was quite a win for India (1971)
or is it too difficult to concede that?
Thats just the jute number, their total exports share fluctuated between 50-70%.
If you are also happy with the separation, then that makes two.
E-W Pakistan with a hostile India in the middle never made sense.
Peace.
The 70% figure was in 1947, but 1971 it was less than 50%.
My point stands, the Bengalis believed many incorrect things about West Pakistan and they continue to believe those even today. Jute was just not that important and its pretty third worldist view that they were being exploited for Jute. The East was a burden on the West as it had even less industry without Calcutta, than the western wing. Bengali was given the status of official language in 1956 Constitution so even the language demand was sorted out a long time before 1971.
The only problem was that Bengal wanted autonomy and control over the country on the basis of their majority, and the Army Beaureucracy did not want to give it to them seeing them too close to India. The two should never have been one country (like Jinnah wanted) but that’s how the British wanted it.
Glad they seperated, it provides more clarity to Pakistan with respect to foriegn policy with India now.
EVERYONE STOP NOW.
Will delete any further comments.
Karachi was a city built by Hindus, even more so than Lahore.
Mojahirs forced the Hindus out, taking over the city and expanding it. If you look at the pictures of Karachi even very late into the Bureaucrat-Military era : well into the 70s, you see beautiful pomenades, trams, buses, beautiful buildings and cityscapes, clean parks and beaches.
The managed decline in Karachi was orchestrated by natives in trying to check Mojahir domination, wrecking the city. Karachi could have become the Singapore to Pakistan’s Malaysia. Mojahir cope is that their destiny is bigger than Karachi. Punjabis won this round.
Singapore to Malaysia is a compelling analogy
Yes it was built by Hindus..
This is another myth, summarized in points below:
1) Historical Karachi was a fishing village, muslim majority with lots of Sindhis and Baloch. Hindus were not widespread in Karachi before the British era. The settlements of Kharadar, Lyari and Mithadar are old pre British areas of Karachi that are a testament to this. They are Baloch/Sindhi majority even today. There were Hindu money lending and merchant castes residing in these areas but they were minor and these areas were not more than a modern village.
2) The British built Karachi as an alternative port/vacation spot starting in the late 19th century when they took control. In this, to assiste them, they imported educated Hindu labor from other areas such as Gujratis, Marwaris, Parsis, and Sindhi Lohannas.. especially when Sindh was part of Bombay presidency – lot of Hindus from other cities moved to Karachi and Hindus became almost half the population of the city.. The British built Saddar, Civil Lines and Karachi Cantonment (to house their troops). The Hindus lived here mostly. It is not correct to say they ‘built’ the city when it was the British who built these areas.
3) The Population of Karachi was 386,000 in 1941. Today it’s more than 30,000,000. That’s 30 million additional people. All the areas that were settled in 1947 – Kharadar/Mithdar & Lyari (pre British) and Civil Lines, Saddar, Cantonment (British) don’t even constitute more than 5% of Karachi’s metro area or population today.
So the actual city of 30 million people that is Karachi is neither built by the British or the Hindus, or even the Sindhis.. It was mostly built by Muhajirs after 1947, and continues to thrive today because of Muhajirs who created most of its instiitutions and staff them today.
Autonomous Federations of Greater Bengal (Calcutta), Great Punjab (Lahore), Great Dravidia (Madras) but with defence and foreign policy centralised.
If the autonomous federation and devolution of powers to provinces is so good: Pakistan should try it out for once.
yes actually I think restoring a few of Princely States in Pakistan (Kalat, Bahalwpur among others) would be very good for Pakistan.
Constitutional Monarchs who have skin in the game and are above petty politics do very very well in ensuring justice and transparency.
The Bhaibands were essentially the landed gentry of Sindh like Hyderabad etc
Don’t have time. Peace.
Harchandrai Vishandas as mayor planned and executed all major arterials to pass through and with support of Hindu merchant panchayats :Elphinstone, MA Jinnah, Clifton, Lawrence, Manghopir, Jethmal,I.I. Chundrigar Roads, Lyari diversion bund. Tramways, rail connections, lady Dufferin hospital, Ojha Institute of Chest Diseases, land for Dow college, S.M. Law College Building, Dayaram Jethmal (D.J.) Sindh Science College, N.J.V. High School, S.M. Arts & Commerce College, Mohatta Palace, Hindu gymkhana… list is very long
Like you said Hindus were ~50% of Karachi urban in 1947, and like you did not say: they built a far greater share of Karachi than Sindhis or Baloch.
This is like 1% of Karachi that you have mentioned and took credit for even Clifton which is incorrect (the area was mostly built & populated after 1947)
This ‘we didn’t inherit any institutions except army’ cope is …silly. Institutions are a function of priority.
The Indian republic doubled down on democracy and institutions, Pakistan and its elites did not. That’s it.
“Its not that deep”.
.
Pakistan has worked extremely well for its elites.
It’s masses have bought into TNT.
The Urdu speaking middle left has kind of been hollowed out (Najam Sethi was imprisoned in the 70’s for trying to free the Baloch and is now a mouthpiece of the current govt).
So it’s a very stable military continuum that has the backing of traditional elites. Also the diaspora has been flowing out from the 70’s so it’s relatively well-represented.
of course it has. North Korea has worked extremely well for its elites also.
what Korea should do is unify; marry off Kim’s heir (his daughter) to the last heir of the Korean Monarchy (who also has Japanese Imperial blood) and turn into a unified Constitutional Monarchy.
🙂
Korea will eventually unify, I mean its inevitable. But…..high probability of things getting…messy before we get there.
Why tho?
As far as what I know, neither the south Korean population nor the communist leadership want unification. Were it not for the nukes, SK would not even think of NK at all.
And does the Korean monarchy even have any legitimacy that this marriage would matter?
it’s (half) in jest..
both Koreans would strongly benefit from unity.
I have a lot of South Korean friends who have started to look down upon North Koreans to the degree that most think reunification is impossible even if both the govts shook hands and decided to do it. The cultures have diverged too much and their sensibilities are too different.
Muhajirs are like the WASPS; constantly melting and intermarrying but of course the product of ALL intermarriages with Muhajirs tend take on their identity since it is the prestige identity of Pakistan (presumably).
Don’t want to color the ‘in honor’ post.
Land ownership is directly tied to equality and democracy. Haari/Bhataidar is not a pejorative slur. It is a descriptive and used in everyday language . If Pakistanis do not like it: just do land reforms, and give away land or encourage cash land-leases.
People talk reforms-revolutions but lack sincerity: Bhutto nationalized the industry but his family has the largest private land holdings in Indian subcontinent and even indentured slaves. You cannot be a socialist, speak for equality and have slaves at the same time.
Continuation of the Mojahir & N Punjabis:
Mojahirs are small in number and without roots in the land, they have all the incentives to disturb the normal democratic process.
Northern Punjabis: are the core patriotic heart and muscle of Pakistan. They are the last hold out of the extractive British Raj and play it’s silly games.
https://www.arabnews.com/node/2634802/pakistan
Pakistan says it seized 32 square kilometers inside Afghanistan as border clashes escalate
Pakistan has occupied Afghan territory near Zhob. Probably to force the Afghans to acknowledge that there is an agreed upon border at the end of the day, that Pakistanis have crossed.
are we democrats?
Indian parliament was a mirror of British parliament.
In the British parliament, we haven’t seen the type of ruckus which happens every day in India.
It will take a lot many years for us to get the maturity seen in British parliament.
The ruling party and the opposition are not in sync on anything, including the foreign policy.
That’s fine – Democracy with Indian characteristics?
That’s extremely offensive; India has had uninterrupted democracy with exception to the Emergency.
Kabir this is palpably untrue.
Pakistan is a failed democracy; India is not. It is a very vibrant one.
This is just untrue and you are acting like a Pakistan Hapsbara, with respect.
All formerly brown indulged in was some self-reflection while stating that Indian democracy is a work in progress.
You have extrapolated that to suit your narrative.
“South Asians are feudal and extremely hierarchical in their thinking”. Please speak for yourself.
As is believer getting favoured over non-believer?
A general warning to all if this descends into a Flame Thread it’ll be a 20-30 comment deletion.
People own Jati.
Only some “ultra modern ” city types don’t subscribe to this.
If jati was so bad, people would have rejected it wholesome.
To an extent the Muslim society of Bangladesh probably doesn’t exhibit Jati too much, probably because mainly dalits converted to Islam.
Even there a thin sliver of exclusionist element , apparent in non Bengali Muslims, who were the elites.
I have read that the Muslim society in Pakistan is also deeply into Jati, except probably for the ashraffs.
If you enquire with your servants, they will reveal their Jatis.
The Jati of imran Khan’s shooter was ahir, as noted in FIR.
The Jati of speedster shoaib akhtar is gujjar.
Don’t take the bait – yes he is simply trying to bring back an Indo-Pak flame thread.
The democracy comment was extremely egregious because it is clearly untrue. The only continuous democracy in the Indian Subcontinent is India (maybe SL).
I would say that a certain political commin sense is shared amongst everyone in our political system
The only difference in our foreign policy would be that the PM himself would not be the topic of conversation.
Otherwise on national security, autonomy, trade partnerships, opaqueness in political funding there is no major difference between most political party’s. Even the bjp tried to continue being friendly with Pakistan when it first came to power and if pantahkot or uri had happened under anyone else we would also see more direct military action as well no matter the party
it’s probably a difference of degrees
sadly rahul appears to be out of line, although the more mature jairam ramesh types are sober.(he even opposed kidnapping of Israelis by hamas, only later to back track).
if rahul wanted information about ops sindhoor or Chinese issues, he can approach the ministry and they are duty bound to give information.
there is no need to ask silly questions and get snubbed in public. vajapayee as an opposition leader is a good example for all.
That isn’t the point though. The Gandhis have been historically anti-military in nature starting from Jawaharlal. If we were to narrow it down to just Rahul we’ll find that his skepticism against the military prominently begins during the Balakot strikes. After which during almost every military action Rahul has tried to generate headlines by asking for proof, denying each strike ever happened, and when all else fails by mudding the waters by misinterpreting private testimony.
Indira seemed very anti-military; she seems to have been the most successful leader military wise
Indira would go on to de-emphasize the role of the military in the war and use the victory to bolster her own image. It had gone to the point that the Field Marshall Manikshaw didn’t get his own pension. Regardless, Indira was the highpoint of the Gandhi’s involvements with the military. Procurement would often come to a standstill during their tenures.
just offtrack, comments section in open thread seems to be taken off?
Really?
should be ok now
They are also duty bound to give information on the dais of the parliament.
If they can ask votes on the basis of solider deaths then they can answer questions on that basis as well.
Calvin you’re taking an explicitly anti-military position here which isn’t justifiable anywhere in our country electorally speaking. Rahul is either completely daft in electoral politics or is trying to actively undermine the forces by questioning their actions in cases such as Balakot. You can try to weasel out of this any way you want but just understand nobody here is fooled.
No need to use words like “weasel”; it’s gauche.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_AInYwRh4k
very nice interview of harish salve by arnab, on FCRA . Harish salve (a baptized christian), one of the sharpest legal minds is very lucid. worth viewing.
Learning about how Indian sport and how it’s intertwined with the politics of regionalism.
Fascinating