I’ll do a larger post sometime later (maybe tomorrow) but a quick rebuttal of some points raised by Kabir in his latest post regarding caste.
Kabir mentioned this about privilege.
All the Pakistanis on BP are privileged given that we are all English-speaking and all of us have foreign citizenship (I assume).
All the Indians on BP are also privileged in that they are able to converse in English.
Notice the difference. The Pakistanis had to go abroad to live/study. The Indians didn’t. I don’t know about most Indians here (maybe they would like to enlighten) but I have spent my entire life in India. I have only gone abroad on vacation. There is no Pakistani equivalent here.
And that is telling.
India is better than Pakistan on all socioeconomic metrics. And I can link charts, data etc here but real world examples like this are more telling.
Sujatha Gidla, a Dalit was able to get education in some of India’s best educational institutions and make it to the United States where she could write a book in English. Unlike in Pakistan, one need not be a descendant of “doctors and lawyers” to be able to go down that path.
Again, I am not denying the existence of discrimination against Dalits (or for that matter Muslims) in India.
But the fact that Dalits (and Muslims) have dissenting voices as well as a visible presence in India speaks for India’s relative egalitarianism vis a vis Pakistan.
In fact, I would say caste is even more pervasive in Pakistan than India due to the complete denial by the privileged castes (as we can see here) and the complete invisibility of it. Kabir has multiple times spoken of his Iranian ancestry as well as EK of his Kashmiri Brahmin ancestry so they are very much “Ashrafs” speaking about “Ajlafs” and “Arzals”.
Poetry by Iqbal is fine and dandy but that doesn’t change the reality on the ground.
All those Muslims exist on the Indian side too where they receive affirmative action (as they should). What is called as “biradiri” is basically “caste”.
Kabir did make this comment about “proper Muslims”.
Proper Muslims (Arabs) don’t have caste.
First of all, it is good to see the acceptance by Pakistanis that they are not “proper Muslims”.
Secondly, since they are not “proper Muslims” but “Hindu Muslims” maybe time for them to examine their faults?
As an addendum, a few of the Pakistani “castes” shown in the header also are present amongst non Muslims and affirmative action is applied to some of them, including Muslims.
Butt – Bhat, Kashmiri Brahmin
Rajput – Kshatriya
Jutt – Agrarian caste/Shudra, comes under OBC in Rajasthan. The Muslim Meos of Mewat who have similarities/links also comes under OBC
Gujjar – Pastoral caste/Shudra, comes under OBC. Muslim Gujjars of J&K come under ST.
To add to your point, an English education is no longer a language only of the elite and the privileged, but has become an accessible Indian language; with 20% of the population speaking it as a second or third language.
At least for a substantial proportion of the middle class, a post graduation in a US / UK / Canadian university is a given. Given the Trumpian age we live in, things have definitely gotten more challenging. But hey, India rocks and the changes over the last decade have been transformational. Spot on comment regarding Gidla’s access to a good education in India. Shows that the system ain’t broken, though the people may be.
I do believe by the 2050s India will basically become a majorly English speaking country similar to Singapore. The lingua franca of the urban centres will be English.
Of course that will have wider ramifications for the rest of the English speaking world which is majorly white as of now but that is for later.
There has been a rise of universities like Ashoka, OP Jindal, FLAME aka “rich people universities” over the last decade or so which provides a more relaxed “Western style” academic curriculum.
A lot of the rich kids who would go abroad now attend these colleges.
Like for the Chinese, I expect Indians going abroad for education to decline massively by mid century (and Indian emigration in general), rather relying on domestic institutes which are just as good.
We have many issues with this post but then we saw K rejecting caste as an analytic category so we’re like
Dhurundhar is going to Dhurundhar.
Even on a more serious note – maybe not in the Pashtun, Sindhi, Baloch areas but certainly amongst Punjabis and Mohajirs.
Like I said, these castes are not even unique to Pakistanis or Muslims.
They exist in India too and get affirmative action accordingly.
Let the survey results come out next year (first national caste census since 1931) – we will get a good idea of the different castes overall as well as within religions.
##There has been a rise of universities like Ashoka, OP Jindal, FLAME aka “rich people universities” over the last decade or so which provides a more relaxed “Western style” academic curriculum.##
Yes, have seen these schools being increasingly opted for especially among the upper middle to rich classes. I still see some wanting to pursue the American dream as an undergrad, but with the heavy fee structure and no clear RoI given the strict visa policy, that option is no longer as feasible as it was about even 10 years ago. I also find many Indians choosing to not go abroad which ties in with the next point you make.
##Like for the Chinese, I expect Indians going abroad for education to decline massively by mid century (and Indian emigration in general), rather relying on domestic institutes which are just as good.##
It’s already in super decline. With many US / UK Univs opening campuses in India and the current geopolitical situation, the decline has only been accelerated. Tbh its awesome to see. I just hope that merit truly starts working for everyone and paves the way for world class universities here.
Anecdotally, a friend who runs a deep tech start-up is increasingly getting requests from US grads for employment opportunities. The OPT that used to be for a year has now become 3 months to search for a job. If you’re unemployed after three months, its tata time! Many have returned and many more will be coming back.
India had Ambedkar who at least forced many privelged communities to acknowledge caste and put some mitigation measures in the constitution, though even these are opposed.
We should not understate how much opposition and vitriol he faced in his life for his advocacy for the under privileged.
Without him, I dont think many communities in India would have been able to express themselves as they do today, even those who would have managed to get education, would have lacked the vocabulary and insight to dissect the problems they face especially if they were from christian or muslim backgrounds
Caste in its current form is a hindrance to Indian Sub-continent’s development. Note that castes also exist in the affluent countries like UK, USA but they’re more subtle and not codified in law/scriptures.
Vigorous mixing of ideas and peoples creates the churn required for a society to be dynamic and progress.
If you look at the stock market listings of USA in the 90s and compare it to today, you would barely recognize 50% of the companies.
OTOH, Indian stock market has largely been cornered by a few families.
We need the churn, mixing, and dynamism!!
Seems like “caste” exists in every component of Indian life. Economy, Society, and everything else. Such a primitive mindset..