Bin Qasim’s Thousand-Year Wound

There is one fault line under everything that happens here, and it is old. Pakistan stands, whether it wishes to or not, as the proxy for the Muslims of the subcontinent, and India as the proxy for its non-Muslims. This is not a quarrel of the last election or the last war. It is a wound more than a thousand years old, set running when Muhammad bin Qasim landed in Sindh in 711, and it has been arguing with itself in the subcontinental subconscious ever since. Every thread on this site is a small, late episode of that argument.

There is a scene in The Devil Wears Prada, the cerulean one, where a colour chosen by Miranda Priestly (Meryl Streep) at the summit of fashion is followed down the seasons, runway to department store to clearance bin, until Andy (Anne Hathaway), who fishes it out is sure her choice owed nothing to any of it.

Anne Hathaway referencing the ICONIC cerulean sweater scene for her first  day filming The Devil Wears Prada 2 💙 Andy is back! , #AnneHathaway  #TheDevilWearsPrada #TheDevilWearsPrada2 #AndySachs ...

The subcontinent’s argument works the same way. Bin Qasim’s landing in 711 was a decision taken at the top of history, and it has filtered down through thirteen centuries of conquest, doctrine and memory into a comment thread, where two strangers swapping insults are certain the quarrel is about this week. It is not. It was chosen for them a thousand years ago, and they are wearing it without knowing the name of the colour.

What is new is that the argument is going quiet, and quiet is worse than loud. The subcontinent is partitioning itself a second time, in the mind. Indians increasingly talk only to Indians, Pakistanis only to Pakistanis, each inside a feed built to agree with them. The 1947 line cut the map; the algorithm is cutting the conversation. Against that, the value of Brown Pundits is simple and almost embarrassing to state. It is one of the few open places left where the two sides still argue with each other in public and mean it. That is worth defending even when the argument is ugly, because the alternative is not a calmer argument. It is no argument, and two rooms that never open the door.

Is BP sui generis on the Internet?

Ask the question plainly. Where else are Indians and Pakistanis actually talking to each other, not writing past one another from separate rooms, but going forty rounds in the same thread and coming back the next morning? Sapan News does serious cross-border peace journalism, but it is syndicated reporting, not a contest in public. 3 Quarks Daily is curation, done beautifully, but a reading list is not an argument. The Juggernaut is paywalled and diaspora-facing, more interested in the second generation in Queens than in Lahore arguing with Delhi. Reddit and Substack are individuated by design; everyone gets their own room. We cannot name another. That absence is the whole case. A talking shop can be replaced by a better talking shop; this cannot be replaced by anything, because nothing else is doing it.

The Missing (Indian) Muslim

The composition tells its own story. The two groups that dominate the threads, the North Indian Hindu and the Pakistani Muslim, hold the most bigoted notions of one another that we publish. The cooler register comes from the edges: an Indian Christian in Calvin, a South Indian in girmit, and from the Hindu side Nachiketa, who argues from curiosity rather than from a side. And there is a silence we should name, because it is the loudest thing in the room. We have no Indian Muslims here at all (except when they want to ask about their community genetics). The community the contestation is most about, two hundred million people, is the one voice missing from the argument over its own fate.

Wrong on Balochistan

When the two sides do engage, the failure has a signature, and it is instructive because it is fixable. The Indian commentators are strong on facts and weak on lived experience. Watch the Balochistan argument. Indians flatten Balochistan into Kashmir as though the cases were the same, and the texture vanishes: the Baloch are spread across Sindh and South Punjab, are a minority even within Balochistan, and are mostly not separatist, with the insurgency a thin slice that commands little of the world’s attention. The ancient older unity of the Indus valley, Kashmir included, vanishes with it.

Wrong on Caste in Pakistan

The caste argument this week was the same error in another key. Citing professors on caste in Pakistan is not wrong about the data; it is wrong about the register. The Ashraf categories are largely invisible, salient in a narrow context the way WASP hegemony is salient, not the all-pervasive, ever-present ordering that caste is in the Hindu world. There is a real perniciousness in that invisibility, and Pakistanis are too quick to deny it exists at all, but invisible is not the same as absent, and to equate the two is to argue from low knowledge dressed as citation. The Pakistanis misread in the other direction, reciting tropes about Hindus until the Hinduphobia surfaces and the cycle restarts. Each side feeds the other.

How we hold the Peace between the Factions

This is why the moderation looks as it does. We do not delete much, we do not farm the brawl for traffic, and we rarely enforce a precedent against a single comment. What we read is intentionality. When someone relitigates Balochistan as though the precedent threads were never written, the question is not whether the comment breaks a rule but whether the person is arguing or trolling, and we moderate the person, not the sentence. The one hard line is separation: when two parties cannot speak without acrimony, we keep them apart. These are principles deduced case by case and then kept by everyone, a common law rather than a code. The boundary is wide. It is not wide enough to launder a massacre, and that is where the bridge stops.

Do we all deserve a Nobel Peace Prize?

Kabir asks whether this is an intellectual forum. Perhaps the better question is whether it is a necessary one. Wherever the borders close, the hatred fills the gap, and the threads show that the hatred runs on misinformation that only contact can correct. People arrive carrying their trauma. Given time, they begin to explain it, and explanation is where understanding starts.

We would rather run an imperfect, sometimes ugly bridge than a perfectly curated room with nobody crossing it. A wound thirteen centuries old will not close in a comment section. But it will not close in two sealed rooms either, and a sealed room is what the rest of the internet is quietly building.

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RecoveringNewsJunkie

Muzzling certain commenters, banning them from responding to a subset of comments or threads, is not quite the unsealed room that we are going for is it?

The “tyranny of the intolerant minority” describes how a highly stubborn, dedicated minority can impose its preferences on a more flexible majority. This happens because the intolerant group refuses to compromise, forcing the majority to adapt to their rules to avoid conflict or logistical difficulties. [1, 2, 3]

The phenomenon operates on a few key mechanics and across different fields:

1. The Taleb Asymmetry Principle

Statistician and essayist Nassim Nicholas Taleb popularized this concept, demonstrating that a minority only needs to make up a tiny percentage of the population (often just \(3\%\) to \(4\%\)) to dictate the outcome for the remaining \(96\%\). [1]

How it works: An intolerant person will only consume a specific option. A tolerant person, however, is flexible and willing to consume either option.

The result: Because it is usually easier for a system to cater to the inflexible group across the board than to cater to both, the inflexible minority wins. [1]

Kabir
2 days ago
Reply to  X.T.M

The “ceasefire” has been imposed because certain people could not restrain themselves from getting personally nasty.

I have a right to a cordon sanitaire around myself where I cannot be personally attacked.

Nothing stops RNJ or BB from responding to Q or EK. Unless, they push those guys to the point where they also ask for a no-engagement policy.

“Tolerance” does not mean that one will accept being attacked or bullied. Such behavior is not part of civilized debate.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 days ago

I remember watching Audrey Trushke in some podcast and she mentioned this which was so true: she said that the Hindutva ideologues literally have no conception of time, they will talk about things than happened 100’s of years ago (even thousands) as if those things happened yesterday and contruct their narrative and entirety of their modern politics based on that. Once you see all Hindutva and modern Indian arguments through that prism, you understand where they are coming from and you also understand how unreasonable these people are.

The India Pakistan beef is due to this reason alone, the Indians have been told that they were one glorious united Dharmic country, and that the Muslims divided India, and that Pakistan was “Hindu” land. Whether its a BJP and Congress supporter, they both dream of Reconquista when in fact there is no ‘Re’ here. And this is also the primary reason why they are so hostile and genocidal against their own Muslim population even when the Indian Muslims are mostly removed from power.

I think the only leader India ever produced that wanted to concede Pakistan was actually Vajpayee, however it is douttful that his view was actually shared by the Indian deep state.

They simply want to reenact their mythology of dominating the region, and do not want to accept that Pakistan does not want to be dominated.

Fly Die
Fly Die
2 days ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Okay, this is a very kinda wierd arguement you are making here. Firstly, Audrey Truscke is basically a grifter at this point, and I say that as someone who is left-leaning (by the standards of this blog) in addition to being someone who doesn’t outright shit on the Mughal empire.

Secondly, that is not really a Hindutva view since every community in India looks at things through a wide timeframe. I have literally seen Kannada, Telugu, and Maratha people argue over their respective claims on the Satavahana dynasty. Even my own minor Christian community literally talks about its history through a 2,000-year perspective. Additionally, it’s an easy 500-year grievance when you literally have Mosques being built atop old temples; it’s hard to forget when history is an ever-present reality.

Thirdly, I am pretty sure only Congress and Indian Muslims actually cared about having India and Pakistan as one country. Congress, from its very start, never really liked partition and had a hangover about the whole issue. I remember hearing about how Nehru opposed Israel since their Zionist ideology shared the same basis (from his perspective) as the 2 nation theory that existed at the foundation of Pakistan. Even Vajpayee (despite being a BJP leader) seemed to hold a similar view to his Congress predecessors; at the same time, he made overtures to China as well in an effort to mend ties after 1962. So, there was nothing unique about his views here.

Fourthly, the BJP doesn’t even shit about Pakistan, quite frankly, since they agree with the 2 nation theory to begin with. Most BJP supporters see India as the main Hindu Heartland and want an even stricter version of Partition, where they would expel even more muslims. Also, Pakistan was never really a centre of Hinduism or possessed any major Hindu sites to begin with. Sikhs probably have more religious sites in Pakistan than Hindus. Why would they even want to Reconquista? Maybe some terminally online people might care about this, but even then, I haven’t heard anything as much either.

Lastly, the majority of issues between the two countries are about Kashmir and the stupid amount of actual wars, as well as the excessive shadow conflicts. Quite frankly, the rise of the BJP kinda ended any sense of “India and Pakistan are the same country” sentimentality, and people have wholeheartedly accepted the partition. The dispute these days is over what the nature or Identity of the Indian state should be.

Agni
Agni
2 days ago
Reply to  Fly Die

The only point I would disagree with is on important Hindu sites not being in Pakistan. Hinglaj Mata and Sharada Peeth are major Shakti peethas still functional. The rest (Hindu and Buddhist) have clearly been destroyed systematically from Qasim’s time to the point that there are no extant Buddhist structures in Pakistan anymore.

One obvious example of destroyed Hindu sites is of the Prahladpuri temple.

Last edited 2 days ago by Agni
Kabir
2 days ago
Reply to  Agni

May I introduce you to Katas Raj?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katas_Raj_Temples

“There are no extant Buddhist structures in Pakistan any more”– Do you know that for sure? Because the Dharamarajika Stupa begs to differ.

These kind of pontifications about Pakistan with complete certainty just reveal one’s own ignorance.

A simple Google disproves your point entirely.

Last edited 2 days ago by Kabir
Agni
Agni
2 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

To be clear, by extant I don’t just mean the physical structure. For Dharmics, a structure holds meaning only when its consecrated and is a place of active worship. Ignorance is indeed bliss.

Pray tell how many Buddhists are still in Pakistan?

Atleast the ruins tell the story of Dharma despite attempts to destroy it entirely.

Kabir
2 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

Also incidentally, a ceremony was recently held at the Dharamarajika Stupa which featured monks from Sri Lanka, Thailand, Nepal, Vietnam and Myanmar.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1997060/ancient-dharmarajika-stupa-in-taxila-echoes-with-dhamma-sermon-after-1500-years

Agni
Agni
2 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

No Buddhists from Pakistan presumably?

Calvin
Calvin
2 days ago
Reply to  Agni

There are no buddhist in the Indian subcontinent outside of Sri Lanka to begin with.

Bombay Badshah
2 days ago
Reply to  Calvin

Naah.

There are Buddhists in Ladakh, Sikkim and Arunachal who have always been Buddhist (or at least for a long time).

Of course, we have the Neo-Buddhists in Maharashtra too.

Bhutan is also Buddhist majority plus Nepal has a decent minority.

In fact, India’s Buddhist population is bigger than Pakistan’s Non-Muslim population.

Last edited 2 days ago by Bombay Badshah
Calvin
Calvin
1 day ago
Reply to  Bombay Badshah

Maybe I should have said peninsular India instead. Buddhism died out in the indo Aryan and dravidian heartland, except Sri Lanka.

Kabir
2 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

Also,may I introduce you to the Tilla Jogian complex?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilla_Jogian

The point is that your assertion ” The rest have clearly been destroyed systematically from Qasim’s time” is a gross generalization.

Agni
Agni
2 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

Admin Note to All: Please cool the tone to all.

You just don’t like losing an argument.

Feel free to have the last word.

Kabir
2 days ago
Reply to  Agni

Don’t worry. There’s no fear of my “losing an argument”. I am quite confident about my debating ability compared to most of the commentariat.

Your assertion about temple destruction in Pakistan was a gross generalization. I’ve already disproved it by providing the evidence of Katas Raj and Taxila.

Btw, I’ve been to both Katas Raj and Taxila. Prior to the India-Pakistan border being closed post Pahalgam, Indian pilgrims regularly used to visit Katas Raj.

Bombay Badshah
2 days ago
Reply to  Agni

Also, may I introduce you to the Taj Mahal?

Yogi-Taj1jpg
Kabir
2 days ago
Reply to  Fly Die

I agree with Q. By “Reconquista” he perhaps means the notion of “Akhand Bharat”. This is certainly a BJP notion and not a Congress one. Congress accepts that India is a modern nation-state created in 1947.

I have written about “Akhand Bharat” here:

https://kabiraltaf.substack.com/p/on-civilization-states-vs-nation

Wikipedia goes on to note that the 2023 unveiling of a mural in India’s Parliament said to depict the Maurya Empire under Ashoka was criticized by many of India’s neighboring countries. Mumtaz Zahra Baloch, spokesperson for Pakistan’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs, criticized it as a “manifestation of a revisionist and expansionist mindset” while Bangladesh’s junior minister for foreign affairs stated “Anger is being expressed from various quarters over the map”. Clearly then, if India’s ruling party uses this concept, it will severely undermine neighborly relations with other South Asian countries. I will also note that the Congress Party does not use this terminology. Perhaps this is because it is an RSS worldview or because Congress understands that it would damage India’s relations with other regional countries.

We can also observe even on this blog that Pakistan takes up a disproportionate share of mindspace among North Indian Hindus. We see this in the repeated assertions that Pakistanis are “Muslim Indians gone astray”. Obviously, this sentiment is very offensive to Pakistanis since it is meant to de-legitimize our nation-state.

Bangladesh doesn’t elicit the same extreme reactions on this blog. Perhaps because we don’t have regular commentators from West Bengal.

There is definitely a psychological aspect to this that deserves elaboration in a dedicated post.

Fly Die
Fly Die
2 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

See, Akhand Bharat is a completely irrelevant concept that is only talked about terminally by online people. The only people who talk about this concept in a serious tone are far right (even for the median conservative voter) or people who criticize Hindutva. This concept lacks any political salience in the offline political world outside of being a vague concept mentioned as part of a long list of talking points. Also, the idea was centred around the entire region being part of a singular cultural sphere, which I mean, pretty sure they copied outright from the idea of Indosphere used to describe pre-Islamic political entities in Southeast Asia.

This doesn’t seem to be anything close to the Reconquista because I don’t think anyone wants to conquer Pakistan. Quite frankly, this idea is somewhat of a dog whistle, like Ghazwa I hind concept. The only people who talk about it seriously are very far right, even for the BJP, or people who are providing disingenuous criticism, usually by people who have stereotypical views about India and Hinduism. Similar to Ghazwa i Hind, mainly referred to by Islamic extremists or by non-muslim indian trying to criticize Muslims (especially indian muslims) via stereotypes and shitty remarks.

Also, I don’t think you understand either Hindus or Hindutva here. The main point of Pakistan in the Hindutva imagination is to serve as a reminder for Hindus. Pakistan represents a country that “Indian” Muslims created for themselves, and look at how they treat their minorities *cough* Hindus *cough*, this is what will happen if you let Indian Muslims run amok. Hindutva is centred around the politics of paranoia; everything else is a byproduct of that belief. Its success stems from propaganda on one hand and the general non-indian very orientalist or racist caricatures about Indian generally and Hindus more generally. The point is to reinforce a sense of isolation and paranoia, which is easy to do since no one really understands what India is, and most people construct an illusory version of what it is.

Honestly, even this blog suffers from these issues. So much of the discourse here about India feels more like what an outsider thinks India is like, versus the actual reality. A lot of the Indian commentators here feel somewhat like an outlier in comparison to the median voter, and they seem to be missing a lot of social subtext that is clearly being communicated by the general population.

Lastly, Bangladesh absolutely has a massive impact on the same level as Pakistan these days, especially in North Eastern circles. You are understanding how much of an impact it has on discourse; it’s just that people here lean more to the Northwest or South.

Kabir
2 days ago
Reply to  Fly Die

“Akhand Bharat” is deeply offensive to Pakistanis (and Bangladeshis etc) since it is basically a de-legitimization of our country.

The fact that it is talked about by members of your ruling party and that there is a map of “Akhand Bharat” in your parliament (as I referred to in my essay) makes it very different from “Ghazwa-e-Hind” which honestly no mainstream political party in Pakistan speaks about. When has Shahbaz Sharif–or even our Field Marshal– spoken about ‘Ghazwa-e-Hind”? They don’t do so because Pakistanis are fine with the existence of India. Our only issue is the Disputed Territory of Occupied Kashmir.

I do agree with you that the Indian commenters on here don’t represent the average voter. By and large, they seem to me to represent a Hindu Right demographic. The only commenters who I wouldn’t call “Hindu Right” are yourself, Calvin and girmit. And of course, you and Calvin are not even Hindu.

Agreed that this blog doesn’t have commenters from West Bengal (as far as I know) hence there isn’t the same angst about Bangladesh as there is about Pakistan.

XTM pointed out that the commenters of this blog don’t include Indian Muslims. Indian Muslims are being fought over by Pakistani Muslims and North Indian Hindus. It would be good to hear them speak for themselves.

Fly Die
Fly Die
1 day ago
Reply to  Kabir

Firstly, I am pretty sure that was a map of the Mauryan empire since it excluded both the Southern and the Northeastern regions. Also, you kinda are proving my point here. Like, I don’t even think the BJP put as much thought into the concept of Akhand Bharat in the manner you are describing here. I have literally never heard of this concept from people actually living in India, as much as I have heard it from people on the internet. One exception in real life was seeing a random picture of it on a car in Canada, but that checks out since a portion of South Asians in Canada are oddly nationalist conservatives for some reason.

The only other times Akhand Bharat even appeared extensively would be in a foreign newspaper for some reason. However, foreign news reporting doesn’t report on India with any form of nuance, so I don’t think that reporting on Akhand Bharat means anything here. I honestly to god looked up a Reddit form and searched up “Akhand Bharat”, where the first comment literally called Akhand Bharat and Ghazwa e Hind a stupid concept with multiple upvotes. There were many similar comments, and this was a very conservative forum. Even though they think this is a very stupid concept, it tells you a lot.

Most politicians just don’t care about this concept as much. Quite frankly, I think this idea kinda lost value after Modi 2.0, since Modi 3.0 seems to be quite directionless and seems to be internally spiraling too much. We are reaching political saturation for Hindutva Ideology, so I think they care about Akhand Bharat very little. I feel like this is a concept that isn’t even worth getting mad over, since no one really cares about this topic on the ground.

Lastly, no Indian muslim would ever want to come here. I randomly ended up in spaces with indian muslims once; God, the amount of times Pakistani nationalists and Hindu nationalists forced themselves in was a lot. Pakistani Nationalists tried to make Indian muslims share their negative opinion about India, while Hindu nationalists tried to underplay the violence they faced and questioned their loyalty. None of this included their own internal squabbles between conservatives yelling about how everything is Shirk, or the odd anti-Shia tirades about the Bohra community for selling out to the BJP. There were other centre-leaning people talking about how we focus on the community, build bridges with other Hindu groups, and build grassroots networks.

Most indian muslims seem to gravitate to centre-left-leaning spaces since they can somewhat express themselves there. I doubt you want to come here, a blog that is explicity centre to the right-leaning. Honestly, the fact that I, a Gay Christian male college left-leaning person, ended up on this blog is kinda weird. At the same time, I find the Pakistani ragebait to be quite ineffective since they don’t understand Indians or India (from my perspective), and the same applies to the Hindu right as well. Honestly, I might just have taken rage bait literally and written paragraphs until the other person got tired.

Frankly, I feel like this place is gradually turning into a weird echo chamber, where Hindu right and Muslim right people are yelling the same argument over and over again. There really needs to be more rules here, or else this will gradually turn into a right-wing echo chamber of pointless arguments.

Kabir
1 day ago
Reply to  Fly Die

Agree with you that this forum wouldn’t be particularly attractive to Indian Muslims. The presence of so many Hindu right people would definitely be a turn off.

Also agree with you on the blog turning into a right-wing echo chamber (both Hindu Right and Muslim Right). For what’s worth, I identify as a center-left Pakistani. I only vote in the US and in that country I have always voted Democrat straight down the line.

You might be interested in my review of Komail Aijazuddin’s “Manboobs”. It’s nice to see LGBTQ representation here.

https://www.brownpundits.com/2026/04/26/review-manboobs-by-komail-aijazuddin/

Fly Die
Fly Die
1 day ago
Reply to  X.T.M

I agree with the fact that everyone should have the capacity to express their opinion freely to produce nuanced debates. However, the problem remains that most of the time this requires people to be somewhat about looking beyond their perspective, but most people here have an opinion about a specific subject that they hold onto quite strongly, without reflecting on their own position. The result would be an endless circular argument, where everyone makes the same arguments over and over again with no nuance or end in sight. I, myself, am guilty of this on certain occasions.

The blog format has clear limitations since you can’t explain a lot of nuanced and complex subject matter in a single post. I end up writing big paragraphs all the time since there are many aspects that are worth discussing here, which can’t be summed up in a single comment or post.

On top of that, a sizeable portion of the discussion about anything South Asia requires additional cultural knowledge and education (via readings or schooling) on many subjects in order to have certain discussions. I can’t explain the intricacies of caste to someone who neither lives in such a cultural context nor is extensively well-read on the subject matter. It’s kinda why I don’t comment on Pakistani issues since I lack that cultural context.

The last main point here is that people here treat their opinions as fact. I, myself, have accidentally done this on some occasions, but I try to point out my references for factual information whenever I can.

There is a lot of useless heated argument over subject matter due to missing context, overgeneralization, or cultural differences. This makes debate fruitless and pushes away the median voter that represents the majority in these countries.

I will just leave his quote from the Inquiry into the True Nature of Things by Raghunatha Siromani, the first modern philosopher of South Asia and a major figure in the Navya Nyaya school:

The demonstration of these matters, which I have carefully explained, is contrary to the conclusions reached by all the other disciplines. These matters spoken of should not be cast aside without reflection just because they are contrary to accepted opinion; scholars should consider them carefully. Bowing to those who know the truth concerning matters of all the sciences, bowing to people like you [the reader], I pray you consider my sayings with sympathy. This method, though less honoured, has been employed by wise men of the past; namely that one ask other people of learning to consider one’s own words (Inquiry into the True Nature of Things 1915: 79,1-80,3; trans. Potter 1957: 89-90).

Calvin
Calvin
2 days ago
Reply to  Fly Die

I think what he is referring to is how incidents from the past are used to settle scores today.

In this regard much of the conversation on Indian musliks and indian christians seems to flatten time and space and make the average indian muslim or christian accountable for something a state they had no role in did

I have seen some people literally ask accountability from Goan catholics for the actions of the portuguese despite they themselved being victims of portuguese colonialism in the same vein, Indian Muslims are regularly linked with mughal emperors or something ghori or Ghazni did everytime there is some sort of conflict. Even modern day conflicts like Pahalgam see Indian muslims bring asked to take accountability, when the actual link between the average muslim and any terrorist or antinsocial element or muslim king is tenuous at best.

Kabir
2 days ago
Reply to  Calvin

Agreed.

Indian Muslims have been called “Babur kay aulaad” (Babur’s Children). If I’m not wrong, “Hindu Hriday Samrat” has himself used this phrase.

Agni
Agni
2 days ago
Reply to  Calvin

Obviously it’s a bad idea to hold present day Muslims or Christians accountable for the actions of invaders.

However, it certainly doesn’t help if IM’s idolize Aurangzeb or Afzal Khan or for Indian Christians to literally pay obeisance to Francis Xavier (the primary instigator of the Inquisition).

Last edited 2 days ago by Agni
Calvin
Calvin
1 day ago
Reply to  Agni

Francis Xavier called for an inquisition of the portuguese jews or muslims who may have been hiding in goa

Goa was already christianized by thr time he came for his sojourn and you dont hear his bigoted views echoed by Indian christians at all.

The fact that he, not the Portuguese king who was the actual person who authorizer inquisition on native population almost 70 years after his death and the bishop of goa at the time are not given the center piece in talking of the inquisition shows how history is being used to weaponize grievances against people today.

Agni
13 hours ago
Reply to  Calvin

I don’t have the patience to write tomes correcting you, but please at least read a bit on the topic before spouting nonsense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa_Inquisition

The Goa Inquisition: the terrible tribunal of the East by A K Priolkar.

Lastly, how did you infer that I implied that his bigoted views are attributable to the Christians of Goa? Is it not true that the embalmed body of the bigot lies in a Church where people pray to him? Its an affront to those who were tortured, converted forcibly or killed brutally.

Goa was known as the Kashi of the West before the barbaric Portuguese destroyed it.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
6 hours ago
Reply to  Calvin

are you really asserting that any discussion of the Goan Inquisition is simply ‘weaponized grievance’?

Fly Die
Fly Die
2 days ago
Reply to  Calvin

It’s not about settling scores; there is another layer to this. I once read a study where researchers asked Indian participants about their views on Muslims and the broader connection to Hindu Nationalism. The results showed that the majority of the participants didn’t actually care about past grievances; rather, they cared about what would happen in the future.

For example, Aurangzeb destroyed our temple in a violent rampage. If Indian Muslims are allowed to take power in the future, they would destroy our shrines or treat us as Pakistanis treat their minorities. The main issue they see in these past incidents is more about what will happen rather than what has happened. Another study pointed out that their views were shaped not by past grievances but by personal interactions that happen all the time. So, if a Hindu person has enough negative experiences with a Muslim figure, then it often builds up over time, cumulating in negative opinions and violence.

I remember this article (by Frontline) about a village in Bihar that avoided communal violence, where the reporters talked to a local and asked them about Muslims. Some context, the village had an informal agreement about eating habits, where muslims don’t consume beef and Hindu give space for muslims to pray. One of the villagers said (I am paragraphing): “When I hear about Muslim on the news, I think that they are bad people, but then I see my neighbour and I think that maybe the news isn’t fully true”.

Another part that is worth mentioning here would be the fact that communal tensions in some sense mask caste, class, and other conflicts. The Nuh violence of 2023 had a strong caste element as the Meo Muslims (who have an overlapping identity with and helped out the Jats) faced violence at the hands of the Hindu Gujjars (who hated the very Hindu/Sikh Jats), and the Jats were not a part of the rioting group. I wonder why that happened. Quite frankly, most communal reporting fails to account for the existence of cross-religious caste, class, and gender conflict. If a Muslim merchant is being attacked by Hindu workers yelling JSR, the underlying issues might be class one, hidden underneath a religious garb to make it palatable to everyone else.

In “The King and the People: Sovereignty and Popular Politics in Mughal Delhi” by Abhisek Kaicker, there is a unique reference to a religious riot. Specifically, there is a reference to a Holi riot that happened during the reign of Muhammad Shah. There were a bunch of Muslim shoemakers who lived in Delhi at the time. Over time, a Hindu Baniya merchant moved into this region and started taking up all the business from the shoemakers. Class tensions simmered over time between the two groups until one day a Muslim shoemaker was accidentally colored during Holi.

This triggered the Muslim shoemakers, who took this as an affront to the dignity of the Muslim community and decided to riot. They went to a Qadi/Judge’s homes to get religious/legal legitimacy, but the judge didn’t come out, and the muslim crowd threw rocks at his home. The Muslim mob decided to riot either way, and they proceeded to attack the Hindu Baniya merchant’s home, which was defended by his muslim bodyguards. The merchant didn’t have anything to do with the Holi colour incident. The person recording this called the riot a “religious” riot, but it was quite clearly a case of class tensions that was given a religious appearance to make it appealing to broader populations. If this were a religious riot, they would be attacking a temple and not a merchant’s home. The same dynamic applies to modern communal conflicts, but in reverse.

Calvin
Calvin
1 day ago
Reply to  Fly Die

This is what I mean by weaponization.

Rather than actually taking the time to understand the cultural complex and the caste and class character of the Muslims who ran these empires or even seeing how deeply the nostalgia amongst the upper class section of muslims trickles down to the lower class muslims they interact with you make assumptions and form your own view on them.

I have always been fascinated by this obsession with seeing muslims in India through a throughly negative lens whete unless you criticize other muslims or praise some form of hindu philosophy like APJ Abdul Kalam you are basically just a bigot in waiting where lack of power not any actual cultural characteristic is what is missing.

This is a result of many Indians not knowing or not taking the time to know about many other communities and as a result seeing a bunch of nobodies to be more dangerous than they really are.

Fly Die
Fly Die
1 day ago
Reply to  Calvin

I think you just misinterpreted everything I said. Firstly, I was talking about how the BJP generally presents its argument to Hindu constituents in electoral districts and how those arguments shape people’s views about one another. I am in no way supporting or agreeing with their opinions on this matter, considering my political leanings are on the other side.

Secondly, my entire argument was that class and caste shape communalism. The Muslim shoemakers attacked the Hindu merchant because they were driven by class inequality stemming from the Hindu merchant’s monopolization of the local markets. Abhisek Kaicker’s entire book was about re-examining religious politics in the late Mughal empire, which explicitly tries to break the general narratives about Muslims presented by Hindutva, you know, the thing that you are literally complaining about.

My entire point was that poverty and caste violence are justified using religion, like the Nuh violence is a good example here. The Hindu Gujjar had a complex caste feud with the Hindu/Sikh Jats. The muslim meo community happened to be close to the Jat after they provided milk during a period of scarcity faced by the local Gurudwara, which mainly happened since the Gujjar refused to provide milk. In fact, there was a political consolidation of Jats and Meos under one banner, which clearly the right and the Gujjars wing didn’t like. The Gujjar triggered a riot against the Meos and used religion as cover, probably egged on by the right wing. The Jat did not participate and seems to be pissed off. You can see how cross-religious caste conflict is being expressed through the medium of religious communalism.

This was my only point; if I didn’t express it well or used poor examples, then shame on me. Also, I was born in Kerala, where none of these empires ruled over this land, and they have a somewhat foreign culture that has literally nothing to do with me. Everything I know about these empires is mainly from academic sources, which care about fine details and the complex intricacies of these communities. I am not even talking about academics in India; I am talking about well-established figures, Daud Ali, Gijs Kruijtzer, and many others. Many of whom come from the very communities you are literally talking about here in excess.

In terms of nostalgia, I only have extreme nostalgia for Kerala and nowhere else. The only muslim politicians that I know are P.K. Kunhalikutty, the leader of the Kerala Muslims league, and I don’t even have either a negative or a positive opinion; he is just a normal politician. I don’t even know or care about any non-Kerala politicians unless I am forced to read about them, like in the case of Modi. I grew up in a mixed neighborhood with Christians, Muslims, and Hindus all my life, I am familiar with these commuity (in the context of Kerala). All of which is supplemented with academic material.

Honestly, what even is your problem? Like, I am not (at least intentionally) trying to morally judge a bunch of shoemakers in the Mughal empire or the people of Nuh for their actions here. From my perspective, they are normal people suffering from economic scarcity and are exploited by the elite (often land-owning) classes. So, we should focus on trying to resolve economic inequality via targeted welfare and affirmative action. This is a very generic statement that doesn’t particularly seem controversial. I think it’s been my wording or a poorly thought-out explanation.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 days ago
Reply to  Fly Die

I am sorry but you have the wrong read on BJP and also the wrong read on Congress with respect to Pakistan (we know because we face it).

The BJP and the Congress are two sides of the same coin, the Congress is much more subtle.

Both of them want Akhand Bharat. You can literally see BJP supporters here one one hand mocking Pakistan but also on the other hand trying very hard to prove Pakistan’s relation to India.

Nothing irks Indians more than Pakistanis wanting nothing to do with them, and it irks them even more when Pakistanis are proud of their culture and history, and still do not want anything to do with India (this shorts the Hindutva circuit)

Pakistan was not the centre of Hindu religion in the past 2000 years, but if you want to go to a time before that (and Hindutvadis love to because they want to show everyone how their religion is the oldest) then you have to go to Pakistan. Vedic Hinduism and all it’s history, culture and language originated in Pakistan that later moved east. IVC is a Pakistani civilization, and the Indus runs through Pakistan not India.

I also think that this is racial. This is controverrsial but true in my experience. Indians don’t care about Bangladesh the same they care about Pakistan. This has to do with the most common Indian want, associating with white skin. Pakistanis generally have whiter skin relative to Indians, and therefore the lamentations about them seperating and a huge fetish to reabsorb them.

Your BJP Minster of Defense literally called to re-take Sindh just few months ago so I think we have a very accurate read on what BJP wants

https://thewire.in/south-asia/rajnath-singh-says-sindh-may-return-to-india-again-pakistan-calls-remark-provocative-rhetoric

Bombay Badshah
2 days ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

When Pakistanis are proud of their culture and history

Untrue. Pakistanis speak an Indian language from Awadh and their national cuisine is also appropriated from there. “Pride in culture” would never lead to the denial of native language/culture.

Vedic Hinduism and all it’s history, culture and language originated in Pakistan

Again untrue. It included regions which are part of current day India – Punjab, Haryana and Kashmir.

This has to do with the most common Indian want, associating with white skin.

Again untrue. It is Pakistanis who have a superiority complex regarding “white skin”. Even though there is no discernible skin color differences between Pakistanis to the east of the Indus (the vast majority) and North Indians (technically they are both North Indians).

We can see it here too with the fearmongering about “Central African” boyfriends. Which to me seems weird considering most kaala African countries are doing better than Pakistan including many Central African ones. Maybe being left behind by the rest of the subcontinent (and the world) means that Pakistani seek solace in skin colour (but where does that leave them vis a vis “fairer” Afghanistan?).

Thankfully with the modernization/liberalization of India, such thoughts are being expunged from the Indian mentality, including Indian Muslims.

Dark skinned Bhojpuri Muslim Indian cricketer Sarfaraz Khan recently had a “love marriage” with fair skinned Kashmiri Muslim Romana Zahoor. There was pushback from the Kashmiri Muslim incel community who were outraged that one of “their women” was being taken away but thankfully these voices are only online and in a minority.

May their tribe grow even more.

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Last edited 2 days ago by Bombay Badshah
Bombay Badshah
2 days ago
Reply to  X.T.M

I do see their mentality in the “online community”. In cricketing twitter, Pakistanis frequently mock darker Indian cricketers using casteist slurs like “bhangi”/”chamar”/”chuhra”.

In fact, Pakistani mediapeople on live TV have called Pandya a “chappri”, a casteist slur – https://www.youtube.com/shorts/hN3zD9W0N98

Now of course, this phenomenon might be a minority within Pakistan and might only exist on the internet/media, but then again I am not the only one making inferences off social media/media.

Bombay Badshah
2 days ago
Reply to  X.T.M

BB u over read and haven’t lived the reality and make pronouncements on the back of that with respect.

You are pronouncing on a country and a community that you don’t have much experience with one way or another.

I am not the one pronouncing mistruths extrapolated from diaspora experiences.

You are an atheist but you have not yet been able to concede that it was a huge miscalculation re Iran .. so the only heuritistic u adopt is “Pakistan bad.””

But it wasn’t – if you are talking of Modi’s visit to Israel.

India-Iran relations remain unaffected.

Araghchi himself has wished for India to continue development in Chabahar, despite the wishes of the Crescentiate here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T32aQVdzpdc

Last edited 2 days ago by Bombay Badshah
S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 days ago
Reply to  Bombay Badshah

Chahbahar is history now. The Israelis & Americans have destroyed it and in any case, Pakistan is not letting it come back online, hence the mediation.

Bombay Badshah
2 days ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Chahbahar is history now.

It isn’t history. It will come back online once the war is over as Araghchi has said.

What IS history is the Iran-Pakistan pipeline.

Wait, something has to exist before it is history.

Pakistan is not letting it come back online

Pakistan doesn’t “let” BLA and TTP from causing havoc in its own territory yet they still do.

Maybe Pakistan should be more focused on being a “net security provider” to itself first?

Bombay Badshah
2 days ago
Reply to  X.T.M

I mean it works both ways.

For all the talks of “Akhand Bharat” when has India even officially made a claim on Pakistani territory?

India has not even initiated an attack on “Pakistani Occupied Kashmir” in human history.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 days ago
Reply to  Bombay Badshah

For all the talks of “Akhand Bharat” when has India even officially made a claim on Pakistani territory?

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/sindh-may-return-to-india-rajnath-singhs-borders-may-change-remark-9686581

Kabir
2 days ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Agreed. “Sindh may return to India” was an incredibly offensive remark.

Sindh was one of the first provinces to vote for Pakistan.

The Muslims of Sindh have absolutely zero desire to be ruled by Hindus.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 days ago
Reply to  Bombay Badshah

“Pakistanis speak an Indian language”

The creators of Pakistan (mny ancestors) spoke Urdu, it’s a Pakistani language. Indians outside of some in Lucknow, cannot speak Urdu properly. I would rather hear rural Punjabis speak Urdu than Indians butcher it with their bad pronounciation.

“It included regions which are part of current day India – Punjab, Haryana and Kashmir.”

Natural parts of Pakistan

Even though there is no discernible skin color differences between Pakistanis to the east of the Indus (the vast majority) and North Indians (technically they are both North Indians).

There is a clear difference in not just skin color but also phenotypes which runs from a NW to SE cline. Indians hate AASI which is their largest ancestral component (so its self hatred).

I think your examples just reinforce the fact that Indians fetishizes Pakistan just like they festishize Kashmir – it’s due to skin color.

Don’t take it from me, here is an Indian advertisment whch shows this longing to be white:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahdvo70fRhk

Bombay Badshah
2 days ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

The creators of Pakistan (mny ancestors) spoke Urdu, it’s a Pakistani language.

The creators of Pakistan ie Hindustani Muslims mostly stayed behind including the descendants of Jinnah and the Raja of Mahmudabad. Urdu is an Indian language.

Current day Urdu is the Indian version, evolved by the descendants of the creators. Pakistanis speak a more archaic version.

Like say theatre actors using “Ye Olde English” compared to the more modern English used in England (innit, guv’nor).

Natural parts of Pakistan

Not possible to be a part of something that did not exist pre 1947. Always was/is/will be Indian.

Indians hate AASI which is their largest ancestral component (so its self hatred).

More of a Pakistani thing hence all the adopted fathers.

I don’t understand Pakistani rejection of dark skin considering that dark skinned men (possibly Indian) had such a huge role in their culture.

I’m sure you have heard of Al-Zutt.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 days ago
Reply to  Bombay Badshah

>Current day Urdu is the Indian version, evolved by the descendants of the creators

When you lose the ability to pronounce basic Urdu letters: ق ز ح خ ژ غ ظ ,ض it’s called devolution not evolution.

There was no evolution here, Urdu has a history of being suppressed in India (one of the reasons why the Urdu-speakers felt the need to create Pakistan). Now you can’t speak it, it’s your own doing. Stop trying to claim it.

Kabir
2 days ago
Reply to  X.T.M

Urdu is the national language of 250 million Pakistanis.

The Urdu/Hindi controversy–mostly an issue of which script would be used for writing– was a major aspect of elite Hindu/Muslim contestation.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
1 day ago
Reply to  X.T.M

Urdu was the main driver of Pakistan. A nation requires a language and Urdu filled that role in TNT. Urdu dailies carried out massive pro Pakistani and Pro Muslim League propaganda in North India to win them the elections. Urdu poetry shifted tone from anti colonial to pro Pakistan movement overnight in the 40’s. There was a reason why Jinnah insisted it be the national langauge of Pakistan despite barely speaking it himself, he understood its power and role.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
22 hours ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Naah, it is an Indian language. Was created in India and the descendants of its speakers live and speak it in India, in a mroe evolved form. Still official language across North India.

Of course, Pakistanis are free to adopt it like the Australians did English from England.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 days ago
Reply to  X.T.M

It’s true that the Punjabis glaze Pathans because of skin color, but it’s a stretch to say they have a privileged position in Pakistan. Other ethnic groups don’t glaze them, don’t want to intermarry with them as they are considered bumpkins for their straighforward approach to everything.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
2 days ago
Reply to  X.T.M

The color obsession exists mainly in Punjabis, just like it does in most Indians. I’m not mocking, I am stating out the cold true facts.

For the past 3,500 years, lighter skinned people have conquered the region repeatedly and installed themsleves at the top. This is evident in the caste hierarchy so there is an innate preference for white skin. I don’t think it shows similarity since many Africans appear to have the same preference.

Kabir
2 days ago
Reply to  X.T.M

That’s not true. “Fair and Lovely” and “Fair and Handsome” did massive business in India. Shahrukh Khan was the brand ambassador for “Fair and Handsome”.

Nandita Das did an entire campaign called “Dark is Beautiful” or something.

The aspiration for fair skin is common in South Asia.

There is a bhajan in which Lord Krishna says to his mother “Radha gori main kyun kaala?” (Radha is fair why am I black?)

Fair skin is associated with socio-economic background since obviously people who labor in the sun will be darker than those who don’t.

Fly Die
Fly Die
2 days ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Firstly, politicians and government bureaucrats say a boatload of crap all the time just to show strength or power, but they don’t always follow through with their actions. So this statement doesn’t have the grand meaning you think it does; it was a way of displacing their show of power or whatnot.

Secondly, it is vedism is a distinct religion from Hinduism, and most of its major centres are actually located in present-day India itself. In fact, the Rig Veda (the oldest of all the Vedas) was completed during the reign of Kinda Sudas from the Kuru kingdom located in South Eastern Harayana today. Shudas is famously remembered for the battle of the ten kings that resulted in the forced merger of the Puru tribe into the Ishavaku tribe to form the Bharata tribe. The remainder of the Vedas were written after the Aryans settled in the Gangetic valley.

None of this includes the fact that the majority of Hinduism was formed almost exclusively in the Eastern Gangetic valley around Magadha. There are foreign elements in the religion, specifically the Kushan empire, but these states were more centred around Central Asia and Iran. The only community that holds quite extensively to the old Vedic ways was the Namboori community of Kerala, which still does the Vedic era sacrifices to this very day. Also, the Indus Valley’s culture, religion, and everything else are relatively unknown, which causes it to be claimed by many people, including Tamils.

Hindu nationalists care about the Vedic religion’s origin, specifically about its origin from outside South Asia, which gives it a “foreign” look. It only matters so much since the Veda forms a key part of Hinduism (especially for the orthodox sects). Pakistan does not really come into this discussion at all, since the main point is about the indigeneity of the Vedas.

Secondly, there is an issue with the fairness in India, but Pakistan doesn’t really come into it. Most indians centre their views on fairness mostly in relation to Western countries and white populations that live there. Many indians primarily imitate their practices as the land becomes more westernized over time. None of this is related to Pakistanis, since only people from the Northwest have any commonality with Pakistan due to overlapping ethnic identity.

In terms of cultural conflicts between the two groups stems from something else entirely. Pakistan and India have overlapping ethnic groups, which means that many cultural practices overlap extensively all the time. When Pakistan celebrate their culture, the problem becomes that its Indian halves have the same culture and they feel like their culture is being co-opted by an outside group. The reverse also applies. Often, the main issue is about cultural appropriation and exclusion, nothing more than that, really. You don’t really see South Indian or Eastern Indian complain extensively about cultural practices, while the Northwestern Indian complain since one group does not share an overlapping identity, while other shares does.

Thirdly, Congress and the BJP overlap on certain policies due to pragmatism, but they do not share the same ideology. Congress’s opposition to the distinction between India and Pakistan stems from its opposition to the partition from the very beginning, since it hated the two-nation theory. BJP agrees with the two-nation theory, and by extension, they are quite happy to the extent that they wish for more population exchanges. None of them particularly cares for Pakistan outside of geopolitics and overlaps with Hindutva politics. The grand notion of a unified India and Pakistan has gradually faded under the deep cynicism of new-age conservatism.

Lastly, you are suffering from a case of confirmation bias here. This blog seems (from my perspective) to be centred around debates about India and Pakistan specifically, which basically means it attracts people who care about that subject matter. People who don’t think about Pakistan don’t come to this blog, which means the people you interact with express certain values. None of the median voters who make up the majority in India hold those values. A good example would be the Israeli-Palestine conflict; you would think that the majority supports Israel, but that’s not true. A Pew study from 2025 showed that 34% held a favorable view, 29% held a negative, and remaning 37% didn’t seem to have an opinion. Even more microscopically, 11% out of the 34% had a very favourable view, while 17% out of the 29% have a very unfavourable view. So, it seems that the majority of Indians are a lot more neutral since both sides even out, unlike what you see on the internet. This blog suffers from the same issue.

Kabir
2 days ago
Reply to  Fly Die

“People who don’t think about Pakistan don’t come to this blog, which means the people you interact with express certain values”–

Agreed. I’ve been saying this for the past twelve months. The Indians on this blog are largely Hindu Right.

Prominent members of the “Saffroniate” (I won’t take their names because I don’t want to start gratuitous beef) have no other agenda other than to come here and snipe at Pakistan and trigger Pakistanis.

I’m sure that there are many more “normal” Indians who don’t care about Pakistan one way or the other.

El Khawaja
1 day ago
Reply to  Kabir

It’s safe to say most Indians are nationalists if not part of the Hindu right. It’s not just this blog, it’s a pervasive behavior I’ve noted across many different platforms for several years now. Unless you’re saying none of the Indians on the internet and none of the Indians I’ve come across in real life who share these same anti-Pakistani views aren’t “normal Indians” I think you need to reevaluate what you consider a normal Indian cause these are their normative views.

Kabir
1 day ago
Reply to  El Khawaja

Only about 30% of Indian voters vote for the BJP.

This blog honestly represents a small slice of Indian views. It is mostly center-right to right-wing Indians who comment.

There don’t seem to be any Congress supporters. Congress is the main center-left party in India.

I think I am on safe ground in saying that Pakistan is not the top issue for the average Indian. Just as India is not the top issue for the average Pakistani.

Let’s not extrapolate too much from BP.

Agni
Agni
1 day ago
Reply to  El Khawaja

I agree with you. In fact I’d further add that most Indians do not wish to hide behind a façade of pretentious civility and have started saying what they think.

Calvin
Calvin
2 days ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

India Pakistan conflict are built on recent events. Had we not gone to war so many times our relationship would be quite different.

The thing about having no conception of time is absolutely true when it comes to Indian muslims, with recent incidents of violence being seen as part of a long chain of violence directed towards them even if most Indian muslims were excluded from most power structures in medeival times.

Kabir
2 days ago
Reply to  Calvin

India-Pakistan conflict has been going on since 1947.

Calvin
Calvin
2 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

1947 is quite recent compared to some of the other things Indian muslims have been blamed for.

Agni
Agni
2 days ago
Reply to  Calvin

Indo Pak conflict is basically a clash of two fundamentally different worldviews that boil down to the age old battle between monotheism and polytheism.

Calvin
Calvin
1 day ago
Reply to  Agni

Much of this conflict and difference is manufactured.

India has good relations with many african and middle eastern countries and Pakistan with China and decent relationship with neighbours except India The number of Gods you worship is not a factor.

It is if anything a conflict of dominance over resources by elite muslims and elite hindus, with religion being used as a justification. Narratives like this only make an artificial difference seem more real than it is

Kabir
1 day ago
Reply to  Calvin

Why are you downplaying the fact that India and Pakistan have a specific violent history that goes back to Partition as well as an active territorial dispute in Kashmir?

But I do agree with you that “age old battle between monotheism and polytheism” is a reductive and counterproductive narrative.

Agni
Agni
1 day ago
Reply to  Calvin

Yeah duh, we don’t share land borders with them!

Downplaying the role of religion in this entire situation doesn’t change facts. The responses that are elicited on this forum when tempers rise are due to comments on religion.

While this forum is certainly not representative, Ambedkar’s magnum opus on the subject has analysed this in detail. If anything the rupture has only widened since 47 or before.

To trivialize it to just a quarrel between a handful of elitists does not address the fundamental issue at all.

Such serious issues are seldom settled with a superficial closure and leave simmering tensions permanently on the boil.

Last edited 1 day ago by Agni
Calvin
Calvin
1 day ago
Reply to  Agni

More than border, we dont have same cultural history with them.

Cultural history that under British Divide and rule has turned disagreements into civilizational battle.

Even today the Pakistani opposition towards India is driven by elites who want to use India as a scapegoat for their failures, similarly pakistan also seems to have become a mirror to manage expectations as well.

If basis of our politics in india,pakistan and bangladesh changes from protection against an enemy towards something more productive like preventing environmental collapse, a lot o truism about thr nature of these disagreement would be overturned.

Agni
20 hours ago
Reply to  Calvin

“Cultural history”?? What’s that?

Punjabis may have something in common with Pakistanis, but certainly not the rest of India. As Fly Die and BB both have elaborated extensively, there’s literally nothing in common with the folks across the border anymore.

That distance paradoxically might be a good thing in the step towards normalization once Pakistan stops being the client state of its army.

Kabir
2 days ago

First of all, I do talk to Indians. “The Peshawar Review” has published Professor Harbans Mukhia and Sourav Roy. Professor Mukhia has another piece in our upcoming June issue.

Professor Mukhia’s earlier piece can be read here:

https://thepeshawarreview.substack.com/p/partition-my-father-and-his-wife

It is true that interaction between Indians and Pakistanis is decreasing and what interaction there is is rarely without acrimony. BP does serve an important function in at least allowing that conversation to take place–though it would be much better for all concerned if that conversation follows the norms of civilized debate.

On “intellectual” forums: I do stand by my conviction that an intellectual forum is one that features a mix of topics including Literature, Philosophy, Science and Art. Geopolitics (and India-Pakistan contestation) is fine but it should be kept in proportion.

Kabir
2 days ago
Reply to  X.T.M

Here’s another piece you might like:

Sourav Roy shares a translation from the Bangla of Manindra Gupta’s biography of artist Ramkinkar Baij–who brought Modernism to Indian sculpture

https://thepeshawarreview.substack.com/p/ramkinkar-grit-and-glaze

By the way, TPR is always looking for submissions. We are a literary magazine and as such the submissions we accept are almost entirely non-political. But we would welcome submissions from BP commentators. The submission guidelines are clearly stated on the site.

For example, one can write about a book that had an impact on you (not a traditional book review but more of a personal essay). Translations are of course an option. I had a translation from the Urdu in the first issue in January and another one will appear in the June issue. Original fiction is also an option.

Kabir
2 days ago
Reply to  Kabir
Kabir
2 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

Also, there was this work of original fiction by my mom. It’s called “Mother in the Jamun Tree”

https://thepeshawarreview.substack.com/p/mother-in-the-jamun-tree

Fly Die
Fly Die
2 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

See, I think there are more issues at hand as to why Indians and Pakistanis don’t interact as extensively. From what I see, both groups are culturally diverging at this point in extreme ways. There aren’t that many people who share experiences or memories of the undivided times under British rule. The old Ganga-Yamuna Tehzeeb and the broader Hindu-Muslim syncretic culture that acted as a common denominator between the two countries is gradually fading away. It is being replaced by an international Anglophonic cultural ethos embodied by the use of English, modern concepts, non-traditional clothing, and a general breakdown of traditional boundaries.

Many of the concerns that Indians (Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Christians, and others) discuss daily diverge heavily from what an average Pakistani might care about. Like Pakistan is a multiethnic Islamic state, both socially and legally, while India is a secular republic legally, with a strong ethnonationalist undercurrent socially, more in line with American Christian Nationalism these days. Their realities are just diverging in many ways, and the commonality that can be used as an anchoring for further discussion is deteriorating quickly.

None of this includes the fact that only Bengalis and Punjabis have anything in common with the ethnic groups across the border, while other groups like Dravidians, Sino-Tibetans, or Tribal groups have nothing in common. Even among the Indo-Aryans, I would argue that more urban populations of Delhi and Uttar Pradesh share some form of cultural history with the populations that migrated to Pakistan. However, they are culturally shifting in a different direction as modernity and cultural drift start to set in. For the remaining non-urban populations that exist in these regions, many of them gravitate more closely to a vernacular/regional identity rather than the broader Indo-Persianate elite culture. The Muslims who shared in this vernacular culture (such as the Manghanhar singer) tended to remain behind in India since most of them fell into the underprivileged groups that were closely tied to the land.

With time, I am pretty sure both countries will diverge into their own distinct identities. I would say in a similar process to Kerala breaking away from the Tamilakam due to political as well as migratory shifts in the region, which is somewhat happening in the West Bengal part of India today. Oddly enough, I think the diaspora seems to preserve the older cultural aspects due to the fact that they are kinda in a time capsule, culturally speaking. I remember people talking about how the culture they are given by their parents is the culture that their parents had when they left the homeland. Also, the diaspora has an overarching political identity as they are citizens of a different country, so the social divides between Pakistanis and Indians dissipate a lot.

In essence, this divergence does present a pathway for a better future since it allows people to focus on the internal matters of their own country and develop an identity separate from past ones. People-to-people interactions in some sense have made relations between India and all its neighbouring countries exceptionally bad; a little distance is probably for the better for everyone. Of course, this comes at the price that both groups have a reduction in interactions and fewer spaces for people to people communications since overlapping interests gradually decline.

Kabir
2 days ago
Reply to  Fly Die

“Only Bengalis and Punjabis have anything in common with the ethnic groups across the border”

You are forgetting the Muhajirs. My own paternal grandmother was from Agra. I still have relatives living in the ancestral home.

Also, I think you are underplaying the interest in the common culture. Until recently, Bollywood was quite popular in Pakistan (“Sindoor” has changed that). Pakistani dramas such as Humsafar and Zindagi Gulzar Hai were popular in India. Indians were listening to Pakistani Coke Studio. I have personally met an Indian guy in New York who knew more about Pakistani Coke Studio than I did.

The two interest groups that really don’t want there to be people-to-people contact are the Pakistan Army and the Hindutvadis. For the Pakistan Army, people-to-people contact weakens the TNT and the idea that Hindus and Muslims are distinct nations. For Hindutvadis, the more Indians realize that Pakistanis are normal human beings, the harder it is to demonize them.

I grew up in the US. My family probably had just as many Indian friends as Pakistani ones. We might have even had more Indian friends since we were heavily involved in Hindustani classical music. Generally, we got along well because these people were sensitive enough to not insult Pakistan or Islam in front of us.

I think Indians and Pakistanis can be much more normal around each other than one would infer from reading BP.

Fly Die
Fly Die
2 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

I already somewhat addressed the Muhajirs. They came from urban centres that possessed a specific urban culture that stemmed from the historic Indo-Persianate cultural landscape. This culture is essentially dying a gradual death, and it is being replaced by a more internationalist modern cultural value system. Persianate is replaced by Anglophonic culture with vernacular roots. The Agra that your grandmother saw isn’t the Agra of present-day India; that version of the world has been long gone for a while now.

Take grandmother, for example, she was born into a conservative, traditionalist, land owing christian joint family, where women were literate, but lacked education beyond the primary level. Female relatives of my age have post-secondary education, were born in nuclear families, live a middle-class life, and are less religious in general. My grandmother was born one year before 1947, and my female relatives were born after that year. The world changed in three generations’ time, and the old culture has more or less faded or evolved in a different direction.

Also, Bollywood was declining in South Asia generally before the war even happened, and it was losing cultural clout over time. That’s why they are trying to appeal to religious nationalism to stay relevant. I doubt there would have ever been a difference, even if the war hadn’t happened. Pakistani dramas were more of a fad than anything else in India since it was part of the soap opera genre that was already dying in North India. Soap operas retain their popularity in the South, where Pakistani dramas wouldn’t have been appealing due to cultural differences.

Lastly, any people-to-people interactions that they will have with each other are through the internet, not in person. I doubt that kind of interaction will ever be good, considering the amount of propaganda and blind nationalism in these spaces. Also, I doubt the very Islamic Pakistani population and the very ethnonationalistic North Indian population don’t exactly seem like ones that will genuinely like one another. South Indians will probably never particularly care for Pakistan, and the left-leaning populations that might try to make an effort are not the main groups leading discourse. In this context, people-to-people interactions objectively help no one. I mean, the Pakistani Military and the BJP reflect a wide segment of opinions, whether either one of us likes this.

Kabir
2 days ago
Reply to  Fly Die

I disagree with you on people-to-people contact.

I grew up abroad. North Indians and Pakistanis get along fine by and large. When we are away from our own countries and our own toxic media, we find that we actually have a lot in common. Urdu/Hindi, Hindustani music, food, clothing etc.

Of course, our Indian family friends didn’t criticize Pakistan or Islam in front of us (and vice versa) but that’s ordinary sensitivity that is normal in face to face relationships.

Fly Die
Fly Die
1 day ago
Reply to  Kabir

But here the thing, the experience abroad involved physical interaction with people daily, which isn’t plausible between Indians and Pakistanis living in two separate countries. The media is the only real point of interaction between the two groups at this point, and that well is nicely poisoned.

Another thing would be the fact that when you live in a Western country, the main social pathway of interaction is via Race. Indians and Pakistanis are “brown” people in a “caucasian” country, where distinctions between national identities fade in favor of race. You end up being part of the same in-group.

Bombay Badshah
1 day ago
Reply to  Fly Die

Another thing would be the fact that when you live in a Western country, the main social pathway of interaction is via Race. Indians and Pakistanis are “brown” people in a “caucasian” country, where distinctions between national identities fade in favor of race. You end up being part of the same in-group.

This is also the reason why I believe @XTM has such a blind spot regarding Pakistan.

In the diaspora the big bad is “colonial whitey” so it makes sense to form a sort of “brown” coalition.

Hence, very idealistic aims of a unified subcontinent (not politically but via integration similar to EU).

Also, because of his Pakistani roots, he genuinely is a well wisher of Pakistan and recognizes that the road to prosperity for Pakistan lies via India.

But the people running things in Pakistan don’t think that.

I do believe there will be a course correction in the future but it will require the current day boomers running things to die off.

They are too set in a worldview they imbibed in their youth, not accounting for present realities.

Bombay Badshah
2 days ago
Reply to  Fly Die

Yup. This is a point that even I have made.

https://www.brownpundits.com/2026/05/07/india-pakistan-pop-culture-and-future-trends/#more-24393

1947 was nearly 70 years ago. And while Pakistanis were “Indians” till then, both countries have since gone in different directions – in terms of values, economics etc.

We can see it here too where Indian “right wingers” are beef eating atheists while Pakistani “left wingers” celebrate the desecration of democracy by “Pak Fauj”.

Even if there was no conflict, the average Indian and Pakistani are diverging by a lot due to different trajectories of the two countries.

In 25 years the gap will be as big as South Koreans vis a vis North Koreans (and they started out way more similar).

Who does metrosexual ripped inked T20 world champion Punjabi Kohli have more in common with?

Metrosexual ripped inked T20 World Champion Telugu Tilak or more “peindu” Punjabi Babar?

image
Last edited 2 days ago by Bombay Badshah
formerly brown
formerly brown
2 days ago

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/1EMfw9dhbw/
The above gives some alternate perspectives on the subject matter.

formerly brown
formerly brown
2 days ago

Some very broad points for…..
1) Mohammed Bin qasim is literally unknown in Hindu india. He is half a line in a history lesson of our schools.
2) his conquest is a point for the political Hindu of RSS type. Hence the mention of 1200 years of slavery etc.
3) since the time hindu sindhis came here, they are known primarily as businessmen and an occasional snooker player. before partition sindh (Sindhu ghatta) for most was known as a place with good cow breeds.
4) the religious places of sindhis are not generally the most visites places for other Hindu pilgrims like kashi, mathura, puri, nashik, tirupati etc.

Bombay Badshah
2 days ago
Reply to  formerly brown

Pakistanis consider Bin Qasim as the founder of Pakistan.

For Indians, Islam arrived nearly 400 years later with Mahmuds of Ghazni and Ghor.

formerly brown
formerly brown
2 days ago

Some assignments to XTM, to check with his family :
1) Sindhi hinduism appears ‘lite’ as compared even to Punjabis, Marwadis and Gujaratis who are their geographical neighbors. Is it because all sindhi Brahmins were killed by MD. Bin qasim? I heard that this priesthood was managed by Gujarati Brahmins. We have never come across a Sindhi Brahmin.

2) It is noticed that havan and puja is Hindu sindhis is not as intense as other nortthies.

4) do Hindu sindhis visit their ancestors’ land for pilgrimage? I don’t think so as compared to sikhs going to nankhana sahib.

4) what was/is the Hindu Sindhis connection to river ganga? Probably they did not go to haridwar even for immersion of ashes as Sindhu was nearby.

5) where do Hindu bhils fit into all these?

Bombay Badshah
2 days ago

Pakistanis consider Bin Qasim as the founder of Pakistan.

For Indians, Islam arrived nearly 400 years later with Mahmuds of Ghazni and Ghor.

Apart from people who are tuned into these matters, most Indians have no idea who Bin Qasim is.

In fact the region that is now Pakistan has never been that important historically and was sparsely populated.

The British canal colonies are what led to some increase in population.

In fact, in the 1951 census West Pakistan had a population of only 33.7 million, less than almost 11 times India’s population.

So you can only imagine the population numbers pre canal colonies.

Post-partition population has exploded due to lack of family planning, lesser autonomy of women, lower education/incomes vis a vis the rest of the subcontinent (including former East Pakistan which actually had more people prior to 1971).

Bombay Badshah
2 days ago

The missing demographic here is not the Indian Muslim, but the Pakistani Muslim.

As in the Pakistani Muslim born and raised in Pakistan, educated in Pakistani institutions and the ones still living and working in Pakistan.

It is very easy to say “Pakistan Zindabad” living in the comforts of a first world country or with the benefits of a first world passport/education.

The actual Pakistani wouldn’t be so eager to sing paens to the glory of Pakistan.

The actual Pakistani has to live in Pakistan and live with all that entails – rising poverty rates, ever worsening security situation, high inflation, lack of electricity (including massive load shedding in even the biggest cities), poor internet access, conservative society, lack of entertainment options etc etc (the list is very long).

There is a reason Pakistan has more than twice India’s net emigration despite having lesser than one-fifth of the population.

Pictured:

Net migration – India and Pakistan.

India had a net emigration of 495,753 people in 2025. Pakistan more than twice at 1,235,336.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SM.POP.NETM?locations=IN-PK

Screenshot-2026-05-30-193203
Bombay Badshah
2 days ago
Reply to  Bombay Badshah

Forgot to add weak passport, visa rejection rates, lack of democracy etc. Like I said the list is very long.

Last edited 2 days ago by Bombay Badshah
Bombay Badshah
2 days ago
Reply to  X.T.M

Again this sounds good but is not the reality; the connections between Pakistan and diaspora are extremely intertwined

As it is in India which has a much larger (and older) diaspora.

We have members of both the Indian diaspora as well as non-diaspora (me so that’s at least one) here.

It’s very easy to sing paeans to Pakistan when one doesn’t live there.

I remember an off-hand comment by a member of the Crescentiate about how metro infrastructure is not important and Pakistan will get in the future some day if/when there is money. This is very easy to say when you are enjoying first world transit systems.

My question is simple:

Why are there no “Pakistani” Pakistanis here?

There are many valid criticisms of Pakistan and Pakistaniat but they are subtle and complex, rather than hammering it down

There might be but there is no subtle criticism of some aspects of Pakistan like the denigration of democracy or financing terrorist activities. Unlike India’s “alleged” ties to BLA, there are/were actual UN designated terrorists in Pakistan.

Pakistan has been on the FATF grey list. And Osama was found there.

Last edited 2 days ago by Bombay Badshah
Bombay Badshah
2 days ago

The two groups that dominate the threads, the North Indian Hindu and the Pakistani Muslim, hold the most bigoted notions of one another that we publish.

I am not North Indian. And while I was born Hindu, I am a beef eating atheist.

The cooler register comes from the edges: an Indian Christian in Calvin, a South Indian in girmit, and from the Hindu side Nachiketa, who argues from curiosity rather than from a side.

The entire “cooler register” is Indian. Where is the presence of the Pakistani edges?

There are Indian Christians here (Calvin, Fly Die). Where are the Pakistani non Muslims? Pakistan has a higher non Muslim population percentage than India’s Christian percentage.

In fact, where is the “actual” Pakistani Muslim, the one without the benefit of a first world passport?

I am the first to admit that India is no egalitarian utopia but there is no “sem2sem” in this case.

girmit
girmit
2 days ago
Reply to  Bombay Badshah

Indeed, I’m not sure it’s accurate to describe you as a hindutvadi or saffroniate. That you are a pan-indian nationalists comes through, and a critic of political Islam as well, but these aren’t necessarily all that saffron in flavour. Philosophically, you could even be a Congress supporter but objecting under political considerations of that party’s internal culture.

Bombay Badshah
1 day ago
Reply to  girmit

Correct. I am more Patel than Modi.

I am not particularly fond of BJP’s excesses especially with regards to Muslims.

There are elements of BJP’s manifestos I agree with – reclaiming of temples in a non-violent manner with proper ASI surveys done, a Uniform Civil Code etc.

But then I do not agree with the beef ban. If Muslims want to eat beef, they should be allowed to. Have it be in special slaughterhouses and the need to mark restaurants with a “beef served” label (similar to halal certified) so that Hindus can avoid it if they wish to do so.

Nor do I agree with the rejection of Muslim history. For better or worse, that is part of our history and we have to embrace it – warts and all. Doesn’t mean present day Muslims have to be punished for excesses of some Muslim rulers.

But because the current Congress is so bad, I have to support the BJP for the time being.

I bring up Modi just to troll the Pakistanis. He really gets their goat.

In a way, he is their idealized leader – just the wrong religion.

formerly brown
formerly brown
1 day ago
Reply to  Bombay Badshah

interestingly on the other hand, I have seen in some Muslim owned ‘small non veg hotels ‘ in a few Muslim areas of Bangaluru, “no beef” on the name board, primarily to attract Hindu customers!!!!

Bombay Badshah
1 day ago
Reply to  formerly brown

Thing is even if beef is unbanned, due to market dynamics most Muslims won’t serve it in restaurants and will be for personal use only.

Last edited 1 day ago by Bombay Badshah
Kabir
1 day ago
Reply to  girmit

BB threatened me– a Pakistani Muslim– with violence.

A Congress supporter would never speak of “infiltrating” Pakistan and making a Pakistani Muslim say “Bharat Mata ki Jai” at gunpoint.

This is clearly Hindu Right behavior.

I don’t want to keep bringing this up but downplaying this threat of violence is incredibly offensive.

Kabir
1 day ago
Reply to  X.T.M

My point was that it is laughable that someone who issues a threat of violence to a Pakistani Muslim then says that he is not a “Hindutvadi”. That’s pure cognitive dissonance.

I thought that the “ceasefire” means we are not allowed to reply to each other’s comments not that we are not allowed to refer to each other.

If that’s the case then BB’s latest post needs to be taken down because it is basically a sub-tweet of me and directly mentions my name. I’m fine with that but that would be consistent.

Also, to clarify: I wasn’t offended by girmit’s comment. I was offended by BB’s assertion that he is not a Hindutvadi.

Last edited 1 day ago by Kabir
Kabir
1 day ago
Reply to  X.T.M

When has Q ever threatened anyone with violence?

I do agree that Q often responds in a manner that I do consider trolling but I’m not in charge of what he does.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
23 hours ago
Reply to  X.T.M

This back of forth reminds me of Ghalib’s couplet:

Baazicha-e-atfal hai duniya mere aage
Hota ha shab-o-roz tamasha mere aage

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
16 hours ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Tomb of Ghalib, Delhi, India

Mirza-Ghalib-Tomb-delhi-1024x768
girmit
girmit
1 day ago
Reply to  Kabir

I recall that, and it was an extreme statement. He was using a very flippant tone which was incongruent with the earnestness you voice your positions with. I don’t want to minimize the disrespect towards you (as someone who has shared their public identity), but there’s a context to his jibes. BMKJ is not above lampooning in the Indian discourse, its not an actual religious slogan. There is absurdity to ultra-nationalism and its rhetoric artifacts, and dhurandar, cricket and other mass media references are part of the theatre we have no choice but to perform in.

Kabir
1 day ago
Reply to  girmit

The point is that no one else on BP has issued a threat of violence to anyone.

An Indian Hindu speaking about “infiltrating” Pakistan is an absolute red line.

Speaking about “inflitrating” Pakistan is not something that any Congress supporter would ever do. So for him to pretend he is not right-wing is beyond ridiculous.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
23 hours ago
Reply to  Kabir

You give Congress people too much credit.

The only difference between Congress and BJP is that Congress people will do sem2sem with Pakistanis and try to deny our identity in nicer words, while BJP will openly claim seperation and hostility while secretly hope for sem2sem.

Both have Akhand Bharat fantasies. One is methodical, and the other is delusionally fanatical.

The only saving grace for Congress is that they don’t hate their own Muslim population while the BJP is increasing the genocidal rhetoric towards them.

Kabir
21 hours ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Congress doesn’t believe in “Akhand Bharat” or in the “civilizational state”.

Congress admits that the Republic of India was created on August 15, 1947 at the exact same time as Pakistan.

Congress governments have conducted multiple dialogue processes with Pakistan–including on Kashmir.

Last edited 21 hours ago by Kabir
BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
23 hours ago
Reply to  girmit

Admin Note; BB not a good look to admit to trolling.

Agni
21 hours ago
Reply to  BombayBadshah

I don’t think the Pak contingent here gets the hyperboles that you employ to make your points. All of them seem to take comments literally ignoring the contextual background.

El Khawaja
21 hours ago
Reply to  Agni

We’re obviously not going to understand Indian contexts, it’s a different culture. similarly Indians don’t get Pakistani humor and take offense to a lot of stuff we say. I remember them trying to cancel Waqar Younis for a harmless joke.
EDIT: If this is referring to the death threat BB gave to Kabir then you can’t gaslight, deny and reduce that to just “banter” – it was a clear threat of violence. He’s now trying to spin it to save face.

Last edited 21 hours ago by El Khawaja
Agni
21 hours ago
Reply to  El Khawaja

What was the Waqar Younis incident?

Agni
20 hours ago
Reply to  El Khawaja

Can’t see it, not on twitter. Seems to have been deleted.

El Khawaja
19 hours ago
Reply to  Agni

Opens just fine for me. His account is probably blocked in India.

Kabir
20 hours ago
Reply to  El Khawaja

Yes, I think all normal people can agree that threats of violence are not “banter”.

Kabir
21 hours ago
Reply to  X.T.M

Threats are being downplayed as usual (not by girmit)

“That was obviously reference to a scene from Dhurandhar”

“I like having a bit of fun”

No Indian is ever allowed to speak of “Infiltrating” Pakistan. This must be an absolute red line.

Whether or not something is dialogue from a film, for a Hindu to tell a Muslim that he will be made to chant a Hindu slogan at gunpoint is beyond disgusting and absolutely unforgivable.

Last edited 21 hours ago by Kabir
Agni
21 hours ago
Reply to  Kabir

Kinda obvious who lives in who’s head rent free.

Kabir
20 hours ago
Reply to  Agni

LOL!

I’m perfectly happy with the “ceasefire” between BB, RNJ and myself. I was the one who was pushing for this.

An Indian threatening to “infiltrate” Pakistan is not hyperbole. It is absolutely unforgivable and a red line.

For a grown man to have an unhealthy obsession with “Dhurandhar” is more than a little troubling.

Agni
20 hours ago
Reply to  Kabir

Haha ok sure 🙂

Btw, I do agree with you that the constant Indo Pak tug of war is getting tedious and tiresome.

I enjoyed your translations of Bilal Minto’s stories. Very useful insight into Pakistani society.

Last edited 20 hours ago by Agni
Kabir
19 hours ago
Reply to  Agni

Yes, the constant contestation is honestly becoming “low-signal”. It would help if there are posts on neutral topics that don’t really have to do with either India or Pakistan.

Thanks for your appreciation of my translations. I honestly don’t have much experience translating. This was just a project I did during covid.

Definitely the stories provide good insight into Pakistani society. Though since they are set in the late 1970s, they are basically historical fiction at this point.

Another one has just been published in “The Peshawar Review”. I’ll post an excerpt here later today.

Kabir
16 hours ago
Reply to  X.T.M

It will definitely be interesting to see what the results are.

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