Now that comments are back—let’s look at this dispassionately. Set aside emotion and accept a simple civilizational fact: South Asia should be plural, civil, and syncretic. Its unity lies in its AASI roots and Sanskritic inheritance, whether acknowledged or not. Otherwise who were the winners, losers and in-betweeners of this senseless conflict?
Prefacing the below with Xperia’s comment in the interests of neutrality and impartiality:
There is however a ton of evidence that Pakistani airfields were put out of operation, at least one hanger hit killing personnel inside. Runways blown up. C130 in flames.
This was was not a dogfight, it was a drone and missile war. The Indian defence was layered and effective. All airports operational and runways intact.
Op sec was also much better on the Indian side, you don’t have any pictures of army personnel firing missiles and jumping around next to locals.
Don’t worry so much about the stock prices. The Chinese market is propaganda in itself.
https://x.com/ConflictMoniter has good OSINT in case you want to take a look.
https://x.com/MenchOsint is more neutral and unbiased.
That said, the data circulating on Telegram suggests a major strategic recalibration is underway.
Without speculating on war origins, the result is seismic: India just suffered its worst aerial defeat. Five high-end aircraft—3 Rafales, 1 MiG-29, 1 Su-30—and 1 Israeli Heron drone were downed. None returned. This is more than battlefield loss. It’s a realignment.
1. Chinese Systems, Pakistani Trigger
For the first time, Pakistan deployed Chinese-made HQ-9B, LY-80, HQ-16 air defenses and J-10C, JF-17 fighters in live combat. All Indian aircraft were neutralized. Not a single Chinese platform was hit.
This wasn’t just retaliation. It was a demonstration. Rafales—France’s pride—were shot down for the first time in history. With zero Pakistani losses, China’s weapons just outperformed Western tech on a global stage.
2. Markets Reacted
• Dassault Aviation (Rafale): ↓ 1.6%
• Chengdu Aircraft Corp (J-10C): ↑ 18%
A $25M Chinese jet took out over $100M in Western tech. That resets the cost-benefit of warfare. Permanently.
3. Strategic Ripples
• Pakistan’s dependence on China is now military, not just economic.
• Chinese systems will gain traction in the Middle East, especially with Egypt.
• India’s strategic posture faces urgent questions—its French, Russian, Israeli kit just got field-tested—and failed.
Test comment-
I think comments should work going forward
I know fog of war and all that but this is ridiculous, you seem to have gotten all your info from the Pakistani fantasy briefings, (they even had videos from ARMA3 game sim). There is no conclusive proof that even one Indian plane was downed.
There is however a ton of evidence that Pakistani airfields were put out of operation, at least one hanger hit killing personnel inside. Runways blown up. C130 in flames.
This was was not a dogfight, it was a drone and missile war. The Indian defence was layered and effective. All airports operational and runways intact.
Op sec was also much better on the Indian side, you don’t have any pictures of army personnel firing missiles and jumping around next to locals.
Don’t worry so much about the stock prices. The Chinese market is propaganda in itself.
https://x.com/ConflictMoniter has good OSINT in case you want to take a look.
https://x.com/MenchOsint is more neutral and unbiased.
Agree. There’s no evidence of any aircraft being downed. Trust me, the Pakistanis would have gone to town had even a single IAF aircraft had been downed, with pictures like they had when Abhinandan was captured.
Objectively, Pak was plummelled, we struck at will across the length and breadth of the country.
Our armed forces are professional, unlike the Pakistanis. We will account for every and any casualty, as we have in the past. We don’t hide our losses, be it aircraft or men.
I thought that no aircraft crossed the border
The IAF DGMO in his briefing said no PAF planes could enter our airspace. And all pilots safely home. We jammed / destroyed their Radar which means the PAF had no eyes in the sky, which probably means the IAF did enter their airspace.
I, for one, hope things improve for the vast majority of Desis now that drones are being used. It’s a shame to see India and Pakistan spending so much money on weaponry when they have so many other problems to deal with. As per SIPRI, India spends more (2.4%) on its military than Iran (2.0%).
Agree. There’s no evidence of any aircraft being downed. Trust me, the Pakistanis would have gone to town had even a single IAF aircraft been downed, with pictures like they had when Abhinandan was captured.
Objectively, Pak was plummelled, we struck at will across the length and breadth of the country.
Our armed forces are professional, unlike the Pakistanis. We will account for every and any casualty, as we have in the past. We don’t hide our losses, be it aircraft or men.
As a quick write up on how this engagement went.
May 7 -> India struck terror bases with precision. JEM mosque+seminary and LET seminary+ training camps were hit. While the strike was a success in terms of accuracy and penetration, the only major casualties were on the JEM side in Bhawalpur where it was thought India would not strike, with Mahzar Asoods family wiped out. LET operatives seem to have cleared out (being the primary targets) and being in AJK, expecting a strike.
May 7 -> Ariel Engagement. Lots of speculation. The only thing we know for sure was LOC/Border was not crossed by either side. Pakistan claims first 3 then 4 then 5 aircraft down. No Indian official has responded to any of these claims till now.
May 8 -> Pictures are plastered across the media of Rafale drop tanks (extra fuel pods) twisted. This does indicate that there was an engagement and that Rafales are involved. Pictures of a tail fin and engine parts supposedly found in Bathinda but there is reason to believe the fin picture is doctored. Indian express carries a story of an aircraft crash in Bathinda but the size indicates a UAV Drone rather than a jet. (villager killed when ordinance explodes when he goes to see at 1.30 am)
My best guess is 1 jet went down, but why is speculation.
May 8 -> Retaliatory missile and drone launches by Pakistan testing air defences, intercepted and shot down.
Indians launch Heron and Harop drones to seek out radar and target signals. Lahore radar battery is put out of commission.
This changes the engagement. Pakistan stops targeting the drones as when they attempt to the radars become the target.
(This was admitted by their own defence minister in parliment)
May 8 Night -> Various Airfields hit by the Indians with impunity as Pakistani defence becomes sporadic and ineffective.
May 9 -> Operation Bunyan-un (something Arabic) launched with Fatah missiles. and swarm of Turkish Yiha/barkatyar drones , mostly intercepted, 4 Indian air bases hit, (in residential/ field areas)
May 9/10… India hits Bolaria airbase killing a squadron leader and destroying the hanger he was inside along with other unknown causalties, Sargoda Nuclear missile base targeted with bunker buster bombs.
May 10 Ceasefire called.
Please feel free to correct anything you feel I have got wrong or messed up the dates. I would appreciate if you don’t just try to rage bait, I am not going to engage.
Lastly I want to highlight the video of the terrorists (Mazhar Asoods kin, one of which was Daniel Pearls beheader) getting a state funeral draped in Pakistani flags and all the generals paying respect in the background. Wanted terrorist leads the prayer.
this comment went to spam for some reason!
if a comment goes to spam please @me. no comments from real commentators should be going to spam
btw I tend to edit “abusive” comments and remove the abuse; please keep Brown Pundits above board to all!!
Thank you. It was a bit surprising to have it disappear without a trace a moment after I had wrote it.
This is of course an Indian version of events but I was glad to have everything confirmed by the Indian DGMO press meeting shortly afterwards.
Unfortunately (or fortunately from a security and asymmetry of information standpoint) they are still very tight lipped on the Rafale.
Masood Azhar. Name spoonerism.
I know this is an Indian version of events but you are denying that “Operation Sindoor” killed civilians. Pakistani media ran pictures of the children that were killed. In no way, shape or form can a seven year old child be considered a “terrorist”.
You say Masood Azhar’s family was wiped out. I think this is again just Indian propaganda as I have not seen any Pakistani or international news media mention anything like this.
Normally I do not like the bbc as a source but in this instance
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cjewen7w192o
Masood Azhar, chief of Jaish-e-Mohammed (JeM), said his older sister and her husband, his nephew and his nephew’s wife, his niece and five children from his family were killed in a strike on a mosque in Bahawalpur, Pakistan.
I did mention his family was killed. This did include children in the JEM seminary.
Let me say I do think all children are innocent and are not terrorists. They should not be present in these camps either. Osama’s compound was raided with his wives and children present, I cannot believe that there were no civilian casualties in that raid. The Pakistani govt never talks about them, in fact we have little information of what happened to them. We know they were there as the compound was identified from a kids blood sample.
Ultimately you have to judge for yourself whether a particular action is Dharma or Adharma.
The Indian version is that “terrorist camps” were targeted. The Pakistanis say that all the targets were mosques in the middle of towns. You are of course free to believe your own side (as I am I). It is completely unjustified to kill children and women. I wouldn’t put it beyond India. When it comes to Pakistan, many of you seem to believe we are not fellow human beings.
What has really been gained? Modi was able to demonstrate a muscular response and many Indians seem to believe that the Pahalgam attack (which still has not been proven to be linked to Pakistan) has been avenged. Good for you. But it has been demonstrated that you cannot defeat Pakistan.
Ultimately, both countries have to come to the negotiating table and settle the core issues. Otherwise, we will have another flare up sooner or later.
Sorry to be a bit pedantic about this but this is not fog of war stuff.
Masood Azhar is a terrorist, he’s just about been the best at it, I would argue even better than Osama, from hijacks and bombings, training others, to beheading journalists he is the No.1 wanted from the Indian side. Bhawalpur is his base and he operated from that mosque.
Even disregarding Masood Azhar’s own statement (search for it, every news site has it, not just bbc).
Do you genuinely still believe that the Indians targeted civilians in a random mosque with a very expensive targeted missile that they then photographed and videographed and this is the only information they are really sharing with the world.
This is absolutely not the random civilian indiscriminate bombing you imply it to be.
Just for the sake of argument, if you found that India was harbouring the Balochi militants in a temple in Gujurat/Rajasthan where they were happily running training camps, teaching people to yank Punjabis (Pakistani) out of a bus, check their ID and shoot them, would you consider attacking that temple?
I just realised, the Indians have attacked temples too, on their own land (operation Blue Star) as any good secular state should. I do hope we stay secular.
I really don’t care and this is the last comment I am going to respond to about this. I do not trust a single word the Indians say (just as I am sure you are never going to trust DGISPR). Najam Sethi told Karan Thapar that even if those mosques were being used as “terrorist camps” at one point, they have not been used as such for the last several years. What kind of terrorists train in mosques that are accessible to the general public?
I hold no brief for Masood Azhar. I am against “jihad” in Kashmir. However, even if (for the sake of argument) you kill a high-value terrorist, there is no reason to kill women and children. For us in Pakistan, what has been demonstrated is that for Indians, Pakistani civilian lives don’t matter. Then you all shouldn’t cry if Pakistani military strikes kill Indian women and children. Our civilians don’t matter to you so your civilians will not matter to us.
I would never attack a house of worship.
Well, I don’t really have anything else to say about this either. I don’t think we are going to see eye to eye. I want to reassure you that Indians don’t see Pakistani lives as worthless and deaths of children are just war stats.
The Indian media has turned into a pack of trp crazed war mongers, the race to the bottom journalism casts us in a very bad light.
I do feel (in stark contrast) the Indian govt, and especially the Indian armed forces have behaved with exemplary discipline.
https://v.redd.it/link/1kkl82a/asset/t4y6ll21ja0f1/HLSPlaylist.m3u8?f=sd&v=1&a=1749623915%2CNTI0NDQwNzZmMDI3YTVkNzEwMzQ3MDgyZDIxYjAzZDU0ZTVkZDIyZWEwZmE4M2MwMTkzZWU1YmJiODQ5MWYyMQ%3D%3D
I might have belaboured this point a little but here is a gentleman corroborating the Indian targeting. I don’t know who he is, but he has a certain vibe. Judge for yourself.
We will probably never know the truth. The Indians claim to have killed hundreds of terrorists while the Pakistanis say only civilians were killed. Hundreds of terrorists is very unlikely and probably propaganda. Regardless, the optics of attacking in the dead of night are very bad. The Pakistani media made a point of saying that we attacked after fajar in the light of day while the “cowardly Hindus” killed us while we were sleeping.
By the way, I am not your typical “Islamist” or anything. I studied Hindustani music and even sing bhajans. I grew up abroad and have lots of Indian friends. Which is why I find it sad how much hatred exists even between young generations. When I was studying in London in 2019, right after Pulwama, a guy who I thought was a friend proposed nuking my entire country. That was certainly revealing.
People like me had great respect for Nehruvian secularism. But it seems that was only a veneer and that your average Hindu Indian really really hates Muslims. The only difference is that in Nehru’s time, they were not allowed to express such notions.
I would argue to the contrary. The rise of the BJP and Modi is very recent, until 2014 the country had avowedly secular leaders. It did not do the country any favours vs terror and islamic fundamentalism.
One of the successes the Modi govt touts is the reintegration of Kashmir and the muscular response vs Pakistan. That and the problem with the congress being unwilling to ditch an uninspiring uncharismatic leader ensures he comes back into power.
The trouble is I cannot even say he is wrong. Kashmir re-integration has progressed (barring Pahalgam), terror incidents are far lower and while the country is more polarised it is also less tolerant of Islamic extremism.
In a country craving for discipline and order, the BJP projects a competent face with no public corruption scandals. Hindutva nonsense makes headlines (mainly for the outrage it generates within India) but does not have broad support.
The prevailing Indian view is more that the Pakistanis are under the thumb of the military which regularly uses provocations with India to shore up it’s support.
I would point you to the person commentating as A Doval here, while his language was hard, his point was that Pakistanis are slaves of the establishment and they do not really matter. This is really the view in the harshest terms. That you are being manipulated by an organization sponsoring terror to create an internal and external instability to retain power.
Imran Khan is your best bet to break that chain. Also recognition of the true enemy of the people.
“Imran Khan is your best bet”. If you believe that, you are really out of touch. Imran Khan hates India. He’s certainly not going to act in your interest. During his time in power, he wanted to create a “Riyasat-e-Medina”. He is a born-again Muslim. You only have to look at his wives to see his personal progression. From a White Christian to a liberal Pakistani to a lady in full burqa…
The PTI hates India. Their only issue with Pak Fauj is that Imran was removed from power. The PTI called Nawaz Sharif “Modi’s yaar”.
Nawaz Sharif is the one who tried to make peace with Vajpayee and was thus removed from power by General Musharraf.
Certainly, the Pakistan Army’s raison d’etre is to “protect Pakistan from India”. A lot of us here have serious problems with the Army’s control over things in Pakistan. But you must recognize that there is a consensus in our country that Kashmir must be resolved. No one in Pakistan is OK with the Muslim Valley being forced to be part of Hindu India.
I am under no illusions. Imran Khan is not our best bet. He is yours, now more than ever because I don’t think he will compromise with the army like Nawaz Sharif did.
Nawaz tried but was undercut very quickly by army with the Kargil war and now has made a deal with the same devil.
Democracy and removal of the military stranglehold will be far more preferable in the long run. Democracies do not war with each other.
Kashmir is a very complex issue, it isn’t simply a muslim majority region, it has expelled almost all Hindus from the area using terror. That is a fundamental threat to India and its unity, existentially it cannot allow a part to breakaway after ethnic or religious cleansing.
It can’t happen, India cannot negotiate on this.
AJK is a negotiation position, I don’t think anyone really wants AJK in India.
Imran Khan is a right wing populist. So no he’s not Pakistan’s best bet. The Sharifs are much more moderate and suitable for national leadership as are the Bhutto-Zardaris.
Realistically, borders aren’t going to change. India will not get Azad Kashmir or GB. Pakistan will nuke India before allowing either of these territories to be lost.
The Musharraf-Manmohan plan remains the most viable option. But India would have to reverse the actions of August 5, 2019.
With respect it’s scary how you communalise everything Kabir; the “Muslim Valley.”
And the Kashmiri Pandits?
The Kashmir Valley has been Muslim-majority since 1947. That’s not “communalizing”, it’s simply stating a fact.
The Kashmiri Pandits are a tiny minority. They wouldn’t have counted for very much in any referendum had it been held at any time since 1947. Again this is just a statement of fact.
Ask the Kashmiri people what they want in a free and fair referendum. It’s my bet they would choose independence. Certainly they don’t want to live in a country ruled by the Hindu Right.
But that tiny minority of Pandits would not want to live in a new muslim majority Kashmir country either.
Do they then secede from the new Emirate of Kashmir that you envision?
This can go on ad infinitum until the cockroaches under your floorboards want their own kingdom.
But isn’t that how democracy works? The majority decides. Pandits are free to live in Hindu majority India.
The Kashmiri people should be able to decide between Pakistan, India or Azaadi. Otherwise the conflict goes on forever.
Or do you envision crushing dissent in Kashmir so that the people are voiceless and can do nothing? Perhaps you want to flood the Valley with Hindus from India proper? That’s not going to work well for you.
Sure, majority of India has decided it will not give up any territory to secessionist movements. Punjab is not allowed to become Khalistan, Assam is not allowed to be Bodoland, Tamil Nadu doesn’t become the TN the country. Pakistan does it too, are you happy to let the Balochistan secede?
There is no analogy between Balochistan and Kashmir. It’s a typical Indian nationalist move to try to create one. Balochistan is not a disputed territory. No one took the issue to the UN. The Baloch were not promised a plebiscite. Balochistan is a province. Pakistan needs to deal with the Baloch to address their issues but it is no business of India’s.
Kashmir is a disputed territory. Pakistan is a party to the dispute. The LOC is not a border.
Nice try.
There is no analogy between Balochistan and Kashmir. It’s a typical Indian nationalist move to try to create one.
Balochistan is not a disputed territory. No one took the issue to the UN. The Baloch were never promised a plebiscite. Balochistan is a province. Pakistan needs to deal with the Baloch to solve their issues but it is no business of India’s.
Kashmir is a disputed territory. Pakistan is a party to the dispute.
More partitions is wrong and nonsensical of any country or region. More autonomy is the right way forward; not just to states but districts, villages etc
🙂 I was just pointing out the absurdity and complexity of the Kashmir situation when it came to plebiscites, where do you stop once you get going, even within Kashmir.
Pakistanis always forget condition 1 for a UN plebiscite, which is a withdrawal of their army out of AJK.
My takeaways from this conversation.
1. The two state idea is etched very deep, Pakistanis truly believe Hindus and Muslims cannot live together despite 75+ years of seeing India exist (and outperform).
2. Even when shown proof that terrorist bases were targeted, the terrorist himself saying so, other terrorists shouting the same to a crowd, the response is ‘we don’t know, but the mosque and the children, how can you’?
3. All ummah related outrage is reserved for India and Israel. China gets a free pass.
Beyond this, we go around in circles, blinkers on and spinning fast.
Perversely there seems to be a lot of desire on the Indian side to really move in for the killer blow, now that Pakistani defences have been breached and offensive capabilities shown to be impotent/neutralised.
There is no killer blow, the best revenge is to live well.
Om Shanti, Shanti, Shanti hi.
“The two state idea is etched very deep”– You seem to be forgetting that Hindutva on your side is the exact same as the Two Nation Theory on Pakistan’s side. The RSS certainly believes that Hindus and Muslims are two different nations and that Muslims can only live in India if they are subservient to the Hindu majority. Pakistan’s TNT only grows in strength with aggressive Hindutva in India.
If you are truly interested in showing how weak the TNT is (personally, I don’t think it makes sense outside the limited context of the 1940s), the best way to do so is to install a liberal secular regime in India.
“Move in for the killer blow”– Good luck with that. Pakistan didn’t plead for the ceasefire. You all did.
“Pandits are free to live in Hindu majority India.”
You have no right to deprive a population of their ancestral land, especially when their culture is the most indigenous to the land. You are basically justifying ethnic cleansing.
The Kashmiri people were promised a plebiscite in 1947. That includes the Pandits. We can presume Pandits would vote for Kashmir to be part of India. So presumably would the Dogras of Jammu.
The Muslims of the Valley would vote for Azaadi or Pakistan. The People of AJK would vote for Pakistan as would those of GB.
You cannot deprive a majority of their right to self-determination because the minority wouldn’t like it.
This is all academic anyway since borders aren’t changing.
You use democracy to subvert it. Please don’t preach sitting as you are in a bankrupt, unhinged theocracy.
Till one become completely objective independent of the religion / country / etc that one identifes with, everything is seen through a biased lens. History has proven time and again who the aggressor always has been. It is up to you to decide what is the rightful conduct i.e., Dharma and what is not given the facts. Facts don’t care about feelings. The story was, is and always will be about a 100 Kauravas and 5 Pandavas.
If you think killing Pakistani women and children is fine then don’t cry when we kill Indian women and children. What’s good for the gander is good for the goose.
I do hope that we don’t fall that far from human standards but if that’s where you all want to go then Pakistan is ready.
I’m sorry you don’t believe us. But our policies even at great detriment to our own self-interest are aligned firmly with Dharma. Nobody wants any innocents to become collateral damage in a war they want nothing to do with. But that is the tragedy of human existence, isn’t it? Perhaps had Pakistan focused more on itself rather than drive itself into an India (Hindu) hatred fueled rabbithole, things would have been very different. Alas, the tragedies over the last 75 years don’t seem to have changed anything. Your country needs to introspect on why it’s in the mess it is.
“Your country needs to introspect”. Yes, and so does yours.
Let’s introspect about why you are Occupying the Muslim-majority Kashmir Valley. The Kashmiri people hate you. They have made it very clear that they want Azaadi. Yet, you take away Article 370, divide the state and turn it into union territories. This is the first time that an Indian state has been demoted and put under direct rule from Delhi.
Even if Pakistan gives up all support to the Kashmir cause (which I don’t believe we should), the Kashmiris in Occupied Kashmir will still demand Azaadi from India. Why should they be forced to be part of a country where Muslims are marginalized run by a PM who calls himself “Hindu Hriday Samrat”?
Introspection is a two way street. Hindutva in India only fuels the Two Nation Theory in Pakistan.
Pakistan offered a neutral investigation after Pahalgam. India decided to attack us. When you attack a nuclear armed country, you should damn well expect a counterattack.
How do you know what the Kashmiris want? Your incredible cognitive dissonance regarding the ideology your country follows and is the sole reason the mess it is in now is precisely why you need to introspect. If there was no Hindu or India, the hardliners would turn against the more liberal lot within yourselves. Shias, Ahmedis being declared apostates is one such example. You just need to see what Afghanistan has turned into, what Bangladesh has turned into because of that ideology. It will consume the most so-called moderates amongst you.
It’s incredible that you believe the Pak army narrative despite clear facts to the contrary.
Speaking of cognitive dissonance. I’ve alluded to this before but the Pakistani love for Kashmir is really on another scale compared to their Uyghur blind spot. The Chinese have shaved the beards, turned Mosques into bars (https://www.instagram.com/doamuslims/reel/DAxnA2AI5VD/) and destroyed the east turkic culture.
These are really all quite heinous provocations to Islam perpetrated by the Chinese state. By comparison the Indian govt goes to quite large lengths to preserve muslim culture.
Bizarrely they then bankrupt themselves to the Chinese to fight the Indians. The religious angle is just realpolitik, a tool to control and enslave with emotion.
Pakistan doesn’t claim Xinjiang. Kashmir is the unfinished business of Partition.
I’m ethnically Kashmiri. I don’t think the same applies to you.
Polls have been done by Chatham House which show most Kashmiris want to be an independent nation–neither part of India or Pakistan. Certainly people in AJK and GB are not clamoring to join India.
I certainly have issues with Pak Army but I’m not going to discuss them with Indians. But you must realize the Pak Army’s narrative only benefits from the Hindutva narrative. A liberal and secular regime in India would make it far more difficult for the Pak Army to demonize India.
What has Bangladesh turned into? They’ve removed a dictator. The only reason Indians like Hasina is that she was Modi’s lapdog.
Really? Can you speak koshur? Didn’t you say at one point you had family roots in Delhi.
I don’t speak Kashmiri. But my family on both sides was originally from the Valley. They just happened to settle in different parts of British India.
No roots in Delhi. My paternal grandmother was from Agra.
Good luck to you with your grandiose delusions and assumptions. Thank you for the polite exchange, but I’m hitting my head against a wall here clearly.
Agree, this pretty much sums up the sequence of events. The IAF DGMO was tightlipped about aircraft but he did say all our pilots are safe home. He also said that the PAF couldn’t come into our airspace.
They also learnt from the Balakote strikes providing timestamped before after pictures to avoid ambiguity.
Near Kirana Hills and the Chagai range, mild earthquake like movements were detected, suggestive of nuclear fission i.e. fissile material burning. An American plane ( Flight Radar) was sniffing around to check potential leaks. Which also means that the Americans know exactly where Pak’s nuclear warheads are stored.I think this was when panic set in for both the West and Pakistan triggering the “ceasefire”. Nothing else explains the sudden desire for cessation given that Pak troops were moving into forward positions just the day prior.
Some things are clear here which probably were right from the start. The US is a double faced Janus like Pakistan ( we knew this already). Games nations play! And the importance / virtue of silence. Most Indian media went bonkers of course, but the restraint and professionalism of the Indian armed forces in their conduct and their press briefings, is a rarity.
Btw thx for saving that comment, it was a bit upsetting to having typed all that to have it disappear.
👍
Indian democracy at work!
😀 yes!
I prefaced ur comment to ensure neutrality and impartiality.
Realignment of technology and power from West to East.
Place your bets
that is good
“Who were the winners and losers of this conflict?”
Well, one obvious winner is the Pakistani Army (in the sense of their domestic credibility). Post Imran being imprisoned, the Army had lost a lot of credibility and many Pakistani nationalists (especially in Punjab) had turned against them–even if only because their man was on the wrong side of the boot. Post “Operation Sindoor” and especially post Pakistan’s counterattack, the entire nation (including the PTI) is standing firmly behind the Army. General Asim Munir is a national hero. Pakistan has been able to internationalize the Kashmir issue. Trump has offered to mediate talks (something which India obviously doesn’t like)
On India’s side, Modi has been able to convince the domestic audience that he has “punished” Pakistan. Though, frankly Pakistanis don’t feel “punished”. But probably, Modi has gotten the push he needs for the Bihar elections.
I wish India and Pakistan could live in peace as normal neighbors–even if they are never going to be friends. But that would require a process to resolve the Kashmir issue. For India to pretend that there is no issue (or the only issue is “recovering POK”) is not going to get us out of this vicious cycle. Neither is threatening to cut off Pakistan’s water. There will be another terrorist attack. India will attack Pakistan, Pakistan will counterattack and we will be in this exact situation again.
India, Pakistan & Bangladesh were one nation, one people; why shouldn’t they be friends?
I don’t think being friends is realistic. I’m not going to talk about Bangladesh because that’s a whole different issue. But focusing on India and Pakistan, countries which have fought multiple wars and are disputing territory are not going to be friends. Just in the past few days, Indians have killed Pakistani children (they deny this and say they only killed “terrorists”). Indian celebs that Pakistanis follow are gleeful about the deaths of Pakistani innocents. It’s almost like they don’t consider us to be human beings.
You say “India and Pakistan were one nation”. I would dispute this. Both countries were part of British India. British India was not a nation. It was a political construction of the colonizer and when the colonizer left, it fell apart. Prior to British India, we had empires not nations. You may disagree but I think that after almost 80 years, the Two Nation Theory has assumed a reality in the minds of too many people for it to be ignored. Certainly, most Pakistanis do believe that Muslims are a different nation from Hindus. Hindutva followers also clearly believe this–hence their constant suspicion and dislike of Indian Muslims.
I would settle for normal neighbors not periodically going to war against each other.
I don’t think recovering POK is a real goal by the Indian establishment, they have fenced up the LOC and are keen to get their side of Kashmir outperform economically.
TBH if Pakistan gives up Hafiz Saeed and Masood Azhar the problem ends and the borders open up.
What is your view on that now infamous funeral on May 8?
As recently as the other day, your government was saying there is nothing to talk about with Pakistan except for “recovering POK”. So that contradicts what you wrote. Maybe it’s a negotiating position but if so it’s a very stupid one. First of all, the people of AJK and G-B are Muslim. They have zero interest in ever being part of a Hindu-majority country. The people of G-B rose up against the Dogra Maharaja in 1947. All they want is to become a province of Pakistan. Unfortunately, due to the Kashmir Dispute, they have been kept in a halfway house type situation.
India must talk to Pakistan in order to address the core issue. The Musharraf-Manmohan plan is probably the only viable solution at this point.
Or, Hindu Jammu and Buddhist Ladakh could stay with India while the Muslim Valley joins Azad Kashmir.
You seem to be assuming that the resolution of Kashmir issue on any terms whatsoever is better than the unstable equilibrium of periodic wars. That, however, is not true. If such a resolution expands Islamic supremacism for example then the status quo(managed to the extent rationally possible) is strictly preferable.
Preferable for whom? Certainly not for the Kashmiri people who always bear the brunt of India-Pakistan conflict. Also, I’m sure you would not choose to live in one of the most militarized zones on earth. The Kashmiri people have a right to aspire to self-determination (whatever that means in practice).
The issue has to be resolved both domestically and between India and Pakistan. At the very least, Article 370 and statehood must be restored to Indian Administered Kashmir.
“The Kashmiri people have a right to aspire to self-determination (whatever that means in practice).”
Nonsense. The right to self determination can only mean the right to create a free country since otherwise it would mean the right to deprive individuals of their rights which is absurd. Kashmiri jihadi movement does not have the right to impose a muslim authoritarian system on Kashmir for the same reason that the American south did not have the right to secede to save slavery.
“Preferable for whom ?” For people who care about freedom and individual rights and are therefore opposed to Islamic supremacism.
If you want to deny the Kashmiri people their rights, you are asking for a permanent state of war with Pakistan. Since you are incapable of destroying Pakistan, you will always live in fear of the next terrorist attack. Good luck with that.
You will have to solve the issue someday. The Musharraf-Manmohan plan remains the most viable option.
The logic of Islamists who both believe that they cannot live with the kafirs, establish islamic states, then are super happy to emigrate for a better standard of living and start asking for sharia law.
Btw India-Pakistan and India-Bangladesh are the longest fenced borders in the world, why do you think that is? You already got your exclusive islamic zones with sharia law and we do not ever try to enter, in fact do our best to keep you out.
Kashmir used to be sufist and syncretic, old pictures of Kashmir show women smiling, now it’s deobandi wahabi salafist radical hotbed of burqa clad no-faces.
https://www.efsas.org/publications/study-papers/pan-islamism-and-radicalization-of-kashmiri-youth/
If Pakistan takes over Kashmir, they will further erase their history, their culture.
It’s already happened to Pakistan, you have already lost your paintings, your sculptures, dancing, the peaceful Buddhas blessing humanity, all blown up and hacked away.
People who don’t want to believe in God will be stamped to death by the mob or given a death sentence by the state for blasphemy. The army kids enjoy their pseudo western life behind their cantonments but for the rest of you the KFC’s will get attacked for fun.
I’m sorry but we are not willing to lose any more land, culture or people.
That’s fine. You’ve made it clear you prefer permanent conflict. We will be ready to give as good as we get.
I’m bored with you and with this conversation so will not be responding to you further.
“ deny the Kashmiri people their rights”
Now you are simply not responding to what I said. I am not suggesting denying rights but claiming that there is no such thing as the right to violate rights in the first place.
“Since you are incapable of destroying Pakistan, you will always live in fear of the next terrorist attack”
This means, does it not, that Pakistan government is a permanent terror sponsoring state ? And you are perilously close to justifying it.
“You will have to solve the issue someday”
We will solve it eventually , say a 100 years from now, by making the economic gap between Pak and India so large that your population will ask your state to focus on their well being.
You seem to not understand the concept of a plebiscite. The Kashmiri people were promised that they would get to vote on whether to join India or Pakistan. The UN Resolutions remain in force.
It’s not about Pakistan. Even if Pakistan were to say that we have no interest in the Kashmir issue and we won’t even support it diplomatically (For the record I am not in favor of “jihad), there will always be people in Kashmir who will be willing to take up arms against India. So there will always be “terror attacks” (or “freedom struggle”). Even Israel has not been able to stop the freedom struggle in Occupied Palestine.
You can solve the Kashmir issue either through a deal with Pakistan (such as the Musharraf-Manmohan Plan) or by settling so many Hindus from India proper in the Valley that it loses its Muslim majority. Only one of those courses is moral.
I’m not going to engage anymore with you. I’ve said all that I have to say on the topic.
Hindu Nats don’t have any nuance and see the world through a victim mentality. They believe Kashmir is ”Hindu land” and as such it belongs to ‘hindus’. Inconvenient things like the ‘Hindu religion’ being invented by the British do not matter to them. Some Bihari Gangaland or Gujrati Bania will claim that he has more right to settle in Kashmir than people living their for thousands of years. In the Hindu nat world view, British took power from Marathas and India is a civilizational state that was always united (even though it was never united except under Muslim Aurangzeb, Budhhist Ashoka or Christian Brits). The only way to actually unite Hindus is to give them a common enemy: Islam and not having Islam as an enemy will be the end of Hindutva. This is why they will not back off on Kashmir and cede it to ‘Islamic’ Pakistan. Expect the future to have more conflicts relating to Kashmir and after recent events, I also highly suspect it to go nuclear in the next 20 years.
1. lack of strategic depth of Pakistan is showing.
2. On a side note, lots of astrologers on met had predicted this event. A graver event in 3to4 months is also predicted.
3. Indian indigenous tech has worked, there will be greater private sector participation in arms industry.
4. China will be unhappy as USA inserted itself in the region.
5. the role of Air Force will increase and that of army will decrease to an extent.
Jai Hind
Pakistan Zindabad.
Anyone who says “Jai Hind” in this situation is not neutral. You’ve clearly picked a side and that’s fine but don’t pretend to be neutral or impartial.
[…] xperia2015 on China: The Unseen Winner of the Indo-Pak Skirmish? […]
For those interested in what actually happened and what it means going forward..
‘Operation Sindoor has set a new normal, a new deterrence for Pakistan’:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc0i1LY5pFY
Some further factual details on what actually happened.
https://www.youtube.com/live/SMndvKFbIrE
CNN Matthew Chance on Indian Fighter Jets shot down.
Note this video is on the CNN web site
https://edition.cnn.com/2025/05/09/world/video/pakistan-claim-shot-down-indian-aircraft-vrtc
I’m sceptical of Western media. They have very obvious biases. You could probably say the same of the Indian media, finding sane and objective voices is rare. That being said, some osint accounts are quite neutral.
That video is quite amusing really. The airplane parts he shows are disposable drop tanks and the reporter is all over the street trying to gain access here and there. I don’t know if it is to our advantage or disadvantage but the difference in access to the CNN reporters (both british by accent) in India and Pakistan was very telling. On the Pakistan side one was getting his talking points directly from very high up officials, on the Indian side they completely shut the other out and he had nothing to report and so went with the Pakistani points for lack of anything better.
It’s a very marked difference, there is zero trust in the Modi govt and foreign media. 20+ years of documentaries and reminding people of riots in Gujarat has killed that relationship for good.
So true. I think the masks are off as far as the West is concerned. They want to prop Pak, a failed state to hem in India, but at the same time they want to contain China with the help of India!
I don’t trust the Western media, biases are obvious and America under both the donkey and the elephant has become more and more of a transactional country with little emotion.
Check our Tom Cooper’s interview with Shiv Aroor, worthwhile watching.
via Rizwan Hasan
Making a circumcision joke is not funny. In fact it’s quite Islamophobic.
Circumcision jokes are not funny. In fact, this is quite Islamophobic.
Kabir
This was from a friend Rizvi Hasan (a doctor)
So I consider it Halal
If you like I can give the FB link to his post.
You can complain to him
Doesn’t matter who made the joke. At the very least, it’s in poor taste in the middle of a war.
Kabir
I too am circumcised. In 2014 at age 55.
Health reasons. Because I had got Diabetes there was drip and foreskin cracked. Very painful.
So went to a Doctor and got circumcised under anesthesia. USD 200 in SL.
A down side less pleasure
You assume circumcision is religious like for Jews too.
In the United States, it’s estimated that around 80% of men have been circumcised. My theory is the Jewish doctors pushed it so that Jews could not be identified in the eara when there was discrimination against Jews.
Another factoid
Higher prevalence of cervical cancer in countries where circumcision is less prevalent.
India, Japan and Sri Lanka
Very much less in Israel and Saudi Arabia.
When I was young (5 years) my father taught and checked to see if I pushed foreskin back and washed with soap and water
Twice day, at shower before going to school. Another during body wash in evening.
If you dont wash twice a day, plenty cock cheese/
Neither Pakistani nor Indian aircraft crossed the border, engaging instead in a “stand-off” conflict at a distance of more than 100km at times. The wreckage of a Rafale was discovered near the city of Bathinda deep inside India, according to multiple open-source analysts.
For pilots in the Pakistani Air Force, the PL-15 missile has several advantages. Once fired, it has a large rocket booster that briefly propels the projectile to above Mach 5, or hypersonic, speeds.
Now, Islamabad buys the vast majority of its arms from China. Some 82 per cent of imports between 2019 and 2023 came from its “iron brother”
At the same time, Delhi has stepped up arms purchases from Western allies and reduced its reliance on Russia. Since 2006, purchases from France, Israel and the US have surged.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/05/08/how-china-helped-pakistan-shoot-down-indian-fighter-jets/?
Now that the fog of war is clearing a bit, this ‘skirmish’ seems like a complete Pakistani victory.
India didn’t manage to hit anything at balakot, however this time they succeeded at hitting but not sure what exactly were their targets because they ended up killing civilians (incl. women and children). The entire operation sindoor seemed like it was done to placate Hindutva bloodlust after Pahalgham terrorist attack. Their weak statement right after the attack that ‘it was done against terrorists and not civilians or Pak army’ proved they don’t want a bigger longer fight.
PAF response the same night downing 4-5 jets (now looking confirmed) – especially the Rafales going down – really put an egg on IAF’s capabilities and grounded them for the rest of the skirmish.
Pakistan also replied by increasing artillery shelling on LOC which also unfortunately caused lot of collateral damage on the Indian side.
India then tried to psyop fear into Pak civilians by sending Harop drones in Pak cities (and they did suceed at creating panic for a few hours in the public because drones attacks are something new for the public (unlike bomb blasts). However once these were easily shot down, further drone attacks did at night and the next day did not cause as much concern.
In anticipation of a Pakistani hitback, India tried to preemptively take out the runways at several Pakistani airbases, but this did not work as most of the missiles missed their mark (PAF claims they deliberately made them miss through EW ) and failed to decapitate or hinder PAF. This prompted Pak to retaliate right away and PAF to hit back in several areas. It seems like Pakistan was threatening escalate to using thermobaric weapons on Indian cities which would have started the war and the US decided to jump in.
It’s a disaster for India because they found they are over matched in the air and got bested even when allegedly having the most advanced western jet (Rafale) outside of the F-35. They found that they are isolated diplomatically and that their assessment of their capabilities and also their global standing is seriously over rated – even the US still prefers Pakistan over India. They failed to catch any Pahalgham terrorists, or establish those links, refused neutral inquiry and just attacked Pakistan to placate Hindutva. They went on a censorship spree for TV media and also on X, YT, IG etc. Their fake news clips went viral throughout the world and reduced their media credibility. Strategically they have achieved absolutely nothing either.
The entire thing has just benefited Pakistan and China, made westerners think about their alliance with India and the excessive Islamophobia kept the sympathies of the MENA countries away.
India needs to reevaluate the path is has taken down the last 10 years, Hindutva seems increasingly becoming just a jerking excercise for Hindus to heal their IMAGINED historical wounds centuries ago, but this comes at the expense of being isolated across and being a butt of jokes.
😂
😂 😂 😂 you have a bright future writing uchronia.
drones in air just now. earlier after every ‘ceasefire’ pak used to fire shells to tease Indians. now they use drones. this is to tease modi after his speech to nation. trump unnessarily got caught in this game. India will hit back
The last word on rafale planes being hit was by Etienne Marcuz here:
https://x.com/etienne_marcuz/status/1920075252450701651?s=46&t=sjVMDFSurSiJxFxxkAVFCg
This is going to get a lot worse, before it gets better. We must not kid ourselves.
Pandit ji, hota hai yeh. Amreeki F16, F14, even F15 gira diye the Iraqis ne. F117 Serbia walon ne. Doesn’t mean Iraq won the war.
2 gire hain total including 1 Rafale. Low likelihood hai ki 3 ho sakte hain as Kashmir wale video(s) mein I could not figure out.
Saare ex-Soviet camp ka BVR game kaafi peeche hai.
Dil garden garden ho gaya hai overall.
I don’t think you get my sentiment. I think Indians were fantastic. Indian air defence layers worked like a charm and kids were making quasi-diwali videos of the popping drones in Jammu.
The key function of an army is to defend its population and ensure its personnel are safe. Indians gave an excellent account of themselves on both these metrics. Planes are equipment, not people.
The body count on the Indian side was 2-3 people compared to over a hundred Pakistanis pañcatve gatāḥ.
china the unseen loser. We now know that pakistan lost this fight decisively as thier nuclear command was without defence, chinese defense failed spectacularly, even turkish drone operators loaned to pakistan died. The most respected analyst in aviation tom cooper sees it this way. Itis clear India made a Huge mistake in accepting ceasefire, it should have pounded pakistan for another 4 days, so their cousin fucking population could feel what actual defeat feels like. Only the total humiliation of pak military in the eyes of their people is the solution . Instead the scumbags once again claim victory. This was a big mistake by India. We should immediately start bombing their air force and destroy it . Getting them back would set them back a lot. wont get another chance as china will beef up their security nect time. And you have always been that fool who trusts pakistanis, is it not clear they wont deal with their bigots?. you live in western country where you only have rights because the people stand up to their bigots. morality equals standing upto supremacists. You cannot not understand this even now?. pakistani populace are happy to be fed on steady diet of hate that they dont ask anything else.
Anyway I see a rabid armchair warrior.
Glad to see, hopefully a full scale war.
Otherwise we get to know Modi and Indian Army are all fart and no shit surrender monkeys
so their cousin fucking population could feel what actual defeat feels like
South India practices cross cousin marriage.
Cross-cousin and uncle-niece unions are preferential in South India, jointly accounting for some 30% of marriages in Andhra Pradesh in 1967, declining to 26% in 2015–16.[159] These practices are particularly followed in landed communities such as the Reddys or Vellalars, who wish to keep wealth within the family.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#India
Stalin once asked Indian ambassador why sri lanka was free. when the ambassador answered that we respect their sovereignty ,he laughed. Have heard enough of your fertilizer worthy thoughts . India interfered in sri lanka because of the crimes it was doing on its tamil population and once it was assured of that, it tried to stop ltte at the expense of the life of its prime minister. Something you couldnt figure out till now.
So morons from sri lanka dont understand what islamic fundamentalism is, hence take stupid decisions like sri lankan cricketers going to pakistan, even after being warned, or when Indian govt warned against possible terrorist attacks in sri lanka, which was ignored and a church was attacked by jihadi terrorists.
Not to mention some Indian Christians deciding to live in pakistan as that was monotheist and less pagan. Those decisions were made precisely because they dont understand what religious fundamentalism actually is.
https://www.thehindu.com/topic/sri-lanka-easter-bombings/
.small countries have people with small minds, who cant understand the world and play bothsideism. They live with a chip on their shoulders that the giant neighbor is dominating them etc.
Its not my job to educate the less intelligent for free, be happy you dont have to face this and move on. Fundamentalists, supremacists, are people that need to be taught fear. They live under barbaric logic like pakistan displays , of using terror under nuclear cloud, because it believes the more reasonable people will be too cowardly to act. Thats the whole point of it. One deals with supremacists, fanatics, by punching their face and more importantly by showing that one will take on the danger. Idiots probably dont read the depiction of paki supremacists towards Hindus as bania, that Hindus are cowardly and hence will not be willing to take risks. Go read something other than wikipedia. Read analysts on why pakistan, its army behaves the way it does.
And lastly, morons need to understand, no one is an armchair warrior when it comes to nuclear escalation. Also for someone at the site for very long time, you need to learn how to post , instead of posting the same thing 3 times in a row.
Nice Mr Armchair Warrior
I hope your wishes are granted, a full scale war with Pakistan. May it spiral into a nuclear war.
I will some popcorn ready to watch the fun.
Aha a armchair warrior
Based on your writing if Modi and Indian Army does not attack again we will know they are surrender monkeys with all fart and no shit
so their cousin fucking population could feel what actual defeat
Cross-cousin and uncle-niece unions are preferential in South India, jointly accounting for some 30% of marriages in Andhra Pradesh in 1967, declining to 26% by 2015–16.[159] These practices are particularly followed in landed communities such as the Reddys or Vellalars, who wish to keep wealth within the family.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#India
Based on your writing if Modi and Indian Army does not attack again we will know they are surrender monkeys with all fart and no shit
so their cousin fucking population could feel what actual defeat
Cross-cousin and uncle-niece unions are preferential in South India, jointly accounting for some 30% of marriages in Andhra Pradesh in 1967, declining to 26% by 2015–16.[159] These practices are particularly followed in landed communities such as the Reddys or Vellalars, who wish to keep wealth within the family.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#India
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