It’s been remarkable to see Brown Pundits flicker back to life—fueled not just by posts, but by the comments. I’m realizing now that much of what I write draws direct inspiration from those who engage here. This is less a broadcast than a feedback loop.
And it’s made something clearer to me: BP’s real niche isn’t commentary—it’s incision. Academic, civilizational, ideological incision into the deepest fault line of the subcontinent: the Two-Nation Theory.
Every society has a foundational cleft:
-
In the Americas, it’s race.
-
In Europe, class.
-
In South Asia, increasingly, it appears to be religion.
Whether this divide was incidental or inevitable, the Two-Nation Theory crystallized it—and in doing so, birthed a civilizational rivalry that remains unresolved. And perhaps Brown Pundits’ unique role is to keep excavating that rivalry, turning it over, exposing it to the air.
The culture war, the identity war, the historical revisionism—much of it flows downstream from this one cleft. As in The Devil Wears Prada, where a high-fashion decision trickles down into a bargain-bin sweater, these lofty debates shape what’s felt in textbooks, passports, films, and flags.
Some of us straddle both sides—I certainly do. But over time, you realize: you live on one bank of the river. And understanding the other side becomes less about reconciliation, and more about reckoning.
So yes—open thread. Write what you like. But know this: every discussion here ultimately traces back to the root question. Is South Asia one civilization—or two?
Let’s talk.
The RSS precedes the TNT. As I pointed out on one of the other threads, the RSS was directly inspired by the Nazis. Savarkar and Golwalkar believed that Muslims and Christians can live in India but they cannot demand political rights. Some of the Indian commenters here try to downplay the RSS and argue that it is simply a “nationalistic” organization. They are certainly entitled to their views but if they belonged to a minority group they probably wouldn’t feel the same way.
One must recognize that TNT and Hindutva operate in a feedback loop. Since Modi has been in power, Pakistanis have become more anti-India. Certainly, incidents of Muslims being lynched for eating beef etc. only serve to strengthen the idea that Partition was a good thing and we are free to practice Islam in Pakistan in a way that we would not be in India. From the POV of a relatively liberal Pakistani, it is deeply tragic that Pandit Nehru’s vision of an India that belongs to all its citizens has lost out and that instead India seems bent on going in the direction that General Zia took Pakistan.
I believe many Pakistanis wouldn’t bother with India if Modi stopped threatening to attack our country every now and then. All military actions by the “enemy” do is bring a divided nation back together. All of Lahore is covered with posters celebrating the Pakistani counterattack. General Asim Munir’s face is everywhere. Just a few months ago, he was probably among the most hated people in the country (especially by PTI supporters). Now he’s everyone’s hero.
India and Pakistan need to solve the Kashmir Dispute. If they do not, we will only see further hatred and more and more rounds of military action.
Kashmir is SOLVED.
They had a TFR of 1.4 back in 2021 which will probably be lower now fueled by drugs, PCOD, late marriage.
Their blue collar class is now almost entirely Bihari.
In 50 years there won’t be any Kashmiris.
Now Balochistan, KPK and Afghanistan with their 4+ TFRs – THAT is going to make Pakistan bleed as it is doing now.
And more rounds of military action benefit India as the gap keeps getting bigger.
Already 12x. Will be 20x by mid century.
Your own analysts have pointed out that all this round of military confrontation has done is re-hyphenate India and Pakistan in the eyes of the international community. “The Financial Times” compared your PM to General Asim Munir–not really a flattering comparison for India.
India would be fighting a two front war since China unequivocally backs Pakistan. You can’t destroy or dismember Pakistan since we are a nuclear armed country and if there is ever an existential crisis, we will use the nukes even if it destroys us as well as you.
“In 50 years, there won’t be any Kashmiris”– that sounds suspiciously like you’re endorsing ethnic cleansing.
Like it or not, you have to deal with the Kashmiris.
The FT editor Roula Khalaf has been in good form the last 10 days, lots of anti-India articles.
The concept of Ummah tends to be very prevalent when there is not much downside involved.
Moderates happily provide a cover for the extremists doing the murderous work, but are the first to cry Islamophobia when challenged.
You yourself exhibit this by saying that while you are liberal there are other jihadists who will carry out relentless terror for Kashmir, never once decrying it.
You can be a death embracing nuclear war touting fool all you want, the fact is your army isn’t. They have a good thing going and won’t self destruct so easily.
Funny how excited you got about all the hoardings the army put up for itself in Lahore, even Kim Jong isn’t that blatant.
You need to read more carefully. It seems English isn’t your strongest suit.
I don’t support “jihad”, I’ve made that very clear. However, I don’t decide state policy.
I didn’t get “excited” about the hoardings in Lahore. I can recognize propaganda when I see it. However, the point remains that India’s actions against Pakistan have united the nation behind General Asim Munir–a pretty counterproductive outcome for India.
And it’s interesting that you immediately counter the FT’s POV by pointing to the religion of the editor. Are you going to attack Ram Guha now for using the FT to make his argument?
You are really quite bad at debating.
You might feel english proficiency is a big thing in Pakistan, let me assure you it is quite common in India, we don’t feel the need to crow about it.
FT has been in fine from these last few days esp. in their editorial section. A clear sign of bias is when they call terrorists gunmen.
The religion of the editor is important when adherents to the religion have a common loyalty and it determines their empathies.
Editors choose what and who they are going to print.
Guha is one of those old guard liberals, you can enjoy Karan Thapar and Praveen Sawhney too, they are very vocally anti-Modi and have been for ages. I suppose they provide a comforting echo of the congress govt where all provocations were met with resignation and hand wringing.
Debating you is a joke, you can be shown the truth right in front of your face but the blinkers are on so tight no light can enter.
Ah yes. The first response of the right wing is to dismiss anyone expressing an opinion contrary to yours as a “liberal” or “fake news” or whatever. Ram Guha is an extremely well-respected historian while you are a rando on the internet.
“You can be shown the truth”– Sorry, you are not the custodian of the truth.
You right wing Indians are so dumb it’s not even worth my time arguing with you.
I don’t have anything bad to say about Guha, he is a respected historian and has his own set of views. The liberal press is a bit unhelpful during a war but are a very necessary part of society. The people I do dismiss are the cacophonic right wing tv media, they are unbearable.
He also didn’t write the FT article, why don’t you actually post a link to what you are referring to.
All your statements can be summed up as follows.
Kashmir- because they are Muslim, let them vote, (but only vote to join Pak)
RSS – they were inspired by Nazis 100 years ago
Terror strikes – but the mosques and children
Musharraf plan – so much peace with Manmohan accepting all our attacks, how about it?
Beyond this, you just spin about repeating the same topics, preening yourself about your education.
Let’s be honest, your English is really middling at best, there is no charm, no wit, no turn of phrase which hints at some talent behind the regurgitated spew.
How is it counterproductive?
Thing is no matter who the Pak public “rally” behind will not change their destiny – to be a poor low HDI state watching the world and the rest of the Indian subcontinent leave them behind.
Forget India, Bangladesh now has a higher GDP, pci, HDI than Pakistan as well as a better cricket team too (finished above Pak in 4 of the last 5 tournaments and whitewashed them at home).
And you don’t get the distinction between semantics and the use of the English language. Is this the best you can come up with? Monotheistic, monolingual and mononeural.
No one is advocating ethnic cleansing. Their population is declining normally due to prosperity like in other Indian states like Goa and Sikkim. They will “disappear” automatically.
There is NO “re-hyphenation” despite what Pakistanis might crave. Some article in some magazine doesn’t change reality.
Apple is manufacturing IPhones in India. Your beloved China does not even do that in Pakistan with their Oppo, Vivo etc.
India is getting semiconductor plants setup.
There will be no two-front war (China didn’t even support Pak explicitly this time staying in the background) nor will there be destruction/dismemberment of Pakistan.
What will happen is Pakistan will muddle along while the world leaves them behind, including India.
Pakistan’s pci is the same as it was in 2015 and considering fertility rates and GDP growth rates will remain the same.
Lowest HDI in the Indian subcontinent (by far).
“China didn’t support Pakistan explicitly”– Whose planes and missiles do you think we use against India? If you threaten Pakistan you will drive us to more closely increase military cooperation with China.
“Apple is manufacturing iphones in India”– Yes, and Trump told them not to.
You don’t have as great a hand as you think you do.
And Tim Cook refuted it saying he is going along with the plans.
Our hand is way greater than you think it is.
India is already the 4th largest smartphone exporter in the world and will be no 2 in this decade.
Pak are still using 70cc bikes.
Using planes/missiles is not explicit support. Using that logic Russian, Israeli, French gave “explicit support” to India.
Chinese didn’t intervene militarily, nor imposed sanctions on India and even in statements were neutral.
And I also like how you never refute the HDI/pci arguments.
The RSS wiped out a large portion of the Muslims in Jammu, which is one of the reasons why that part of Jammu and Kashmir has a Hindu majority. Pakistan as a whole has a large representation of Hindu warrior castes dating back to when whole armies of Hindus embraced Islam.
is this true?
civilization is about prosperity, win win deals. There is in that sense only one civilization. The other seeks supremacy at the cost of supporting fanatics under nuclear umbrella. Pakistan has a professional army, has nukes and still it indulges in revisionism. And its aim is not kashmir, its aim is to destroy the composite win-win coexistence based Idea that India represents. The argument of muslim majority=muslim country means that Other countries should always be vary of any rise in muslim demography. And a country cant be at once vary of a sub population while also providing equal citizenship. This is its goal, irrespective of how much destruction such a venture it leads to. This was directly the aim of the founder of pakistan Jinnah, who said very clearly that he would rather have muslims of India smashed in order to birth pakistan, who started the capture of kashmir through militants in the last years of his life. The last years of his life were spent in wresting kashmir than build pakistan for prosperity. That is its mindset, Jinnah even tried to court middle eastern countries against India by saying Hindu India would be dangerous to them and pakistan would help. All of these are documented. No civilization will risk the prosperity of its people for some ideological victory over others. So, your idea of two civilizations is wrong, There is one civilization, and other is barbarism. And you see the Barbarism of its citizens even on this blog. At no point do they discuss social progress in pakistan or its economic growth or anything of the kind. While Indians do talk about a lot of other things. One lives, other only seeks to destroy. It isnt a country, its a parasitism .
You need economic growth and social progress to talk about it, which Pakistan doesn’t.
Dead last in the Indian subcontinent and is being surpassed by sub-saharan African countries.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1911855/standoff-clear-setback-for-india-nyt
Our Right-wing Indian friends don’t like “The New York Times” (neither does the right wing in the US) but as the newspaper of record, it is important to be aware of what it says:
“Strategically, the battlefield tossup was a clear setback for India. An aspiring diplomatic and economic power, it now finds itself equated with Pakistan, a smaller, weaker country,” the newspaper noted in a report on Sunday.
“The four-day clash reminded the world of India’s powerlessness to resolve 78 years of conflict with the troubled nation next door. Any act of confrontation plays into the hands of Pakistan, where friction with India has long been a lifeblood. Outright military victory is nearly impossible, given the threat from both countries’ nuclear arsenals,” it added.
Reality is different from op-eds.
Like I said – semiconductor and smartphone plants are being set up in India not Pak. UK signed and FTA deal with India not Pak. USA and EU are negotiating FTA deals with India not Pak.
Pakistanis love to “hyphenate” themselves with India as they can bask in the reflected glory.
Thing is their economy is smaller than multiple Indian states (number to increase in the next 2-3 years) as well as countries like Bangladesh, Philippines etc.
Pakistan should first look to get above $2000 pci. They have been stuck on $1500 for like a decade.
Part of the issue here is that the above language to trigger debate already smuggles in presumptions that are far from settled.
E.g. an Indian would say there’s no “civilizational rivalry” between India and Pakistan, because Indian state doesn’t consider Pakistan as its rival, no more than Germany considers Romania its rival. For any interaction between two entities to be labelled as such, there must be mutual agreement on at least the sheer fact of its existence.
Secondly, the only peace possible between India and Pakistan is Indian peace. No matter how much punditry we all do this is the best deal that will ever be on the table 🙂
PS: Good luck with the debate! Maybe if I get time on my upcoming holiday I’ll contribute a post on the topic of the atharva veda…
The actions of the Modi government against Pakistan have succeeded in re-hyphenating the two countries. The Indian state may not consider Pakistan its rival, but that is how the world looks at it. That’s a foreign policy failure for India.
“The only peace possible between India and Pakistan is Indian peace”– Pakistan is a nuclear armed country. We will never accept your hegemony. DGISPR made that extremely clear.
Take your nukes and stick it in your ass, or sell it to other rogue states which was the other thing pakistan did with it. Individual states in India are now higher in economy than entire pakistan. your army has colonized your country , no democracy, no economy , nothing positive to live for. your country is poor and none of that matters to zombies like you one bit, just keep whining like whore of your army “pakistan is nuclear armed country, we will never accept your hegemony.”
Say it a million times to be a good zombie bot. While we go about taking care of our people while spanking you in between. The spanking will continue. And the world looks at pakistan and sees it as the people who sheltered osama bin laden and country of other brainless zombie bots. “pakistan isn’t even a country, its a fucking acronym” .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDSb9fgPOU8&ab_channel=FlashNews
.The prize of fighting India endlessly requires zombies like you to sell your soul to your evil army and be colonized by it You dont care about poverty, starvation or anything else for that matter. Low IQ people play stupid games and win stupid prizes.
“The spanking will continue”
Please try. Every time you try we will shoot down more and more of your planes. Grow up.
“You don’t care about poverty…”. How do you know? I don’t discuss it with Indians. Right now all comments are in the context of the four day “war” we just had.
“Low IQ people”. You know nothing about me. I have been educated at the best American and British institutions. I certainly write better English than you.
Frankly, I wouldn’t give a damn about you or your stupid country. But your PM threatens to attack Pakistan. That’s the only relevance you have for us. You attack us, we will teach you a lesson you will never forget.
““The spanking will continue”
Please try. Every time you try we will shoot down more and more of your planes. Grow up.
“You don’t care about poverty…”. How do you know? I don’t discuss it with Indians. Right now all comments are in the context of the four day “war” we just had.
“Low IQ people”. You know nothing about me. I have been educated at the best American and British institutions. I certainly write better English than you.
Frankly, I wouldn’t give a damn about you or your stupid country. But your PM threatens to attack Pakistan. That’s the only relevance you have for us. You attack us, we will teach you a lesson you will never forget.”
low iq is not in reference to you, it is general statement that low iq people play stupid games and win stupid prizes. And the fact you say what you say, having gone to best institutions is clear signal to everyone .
Better to be quiet and let everyone think you are intelligent than open your mouth and confirm what you actually are to everyone. As for the fact you dont post about issues of poverty etc because you do it elsewhere, This is a transparent lie everyone can see. People cannot wall off what motivates them from site to site and person to person. And to keep doing that for years. No one here, not even any intelligent pakistani would buy that. We can all agree that one can provide the best education, but it is on students to receive. Go back to being a willing soulless brainless zombie to pak army while they pick people up and torture your fellow citizens. Every coward needs an excuse from seeing the mirror, lest it rankles their conscience to awake and get them into trouble. People learn to bury their heart and soul and get on with the programming. so yes,be what your army wants you to be, be focused on hating me, India , Indians, Modi etc. Keep hating till we interact again.
Every discussion has a context. The context on BP right now is the India Pakistan “war”, Two nation theory etc. If you attack my country why would you expect me to post about poverty etc?
I don’t hate India. Frankly, I couldn’t care less as long as your PM is not threatening Pakistan. The minute our sovereignty is threatened, the entire nation will come together. Indians don’t have a monopoly on patriotism.
Homophobic and misogynistic language only reflects your mentality.
X.T.M: are we allowing homophobic language on BP?
thank you for the heads up – I have removed the comment.
After many posts, You become the context and you carry with you everywhere you go. How you see the world is what you bring all the time. No wonder your country is going through economic crisis. When those who went to best educational institutions dont stand for people and choose to become zombie bots for parasitic army, it shows. You do tolerate jihadi hate towards India and its people and happily support it. Yes, put your conscience to sleep. while the poor starve patriotism is in full display, it takes more courage to stand against your own than against external others. One requires no use of brain, other puts one under stress. Dont stress your brain.Put your conscience to sleep.
Once again, I don’t hate India. I only respond to toxic Hindutvadi comments in the same language they understand. Every country has a right to defend itself when attacked.
“It takes more courage to stand against your own….”– That’s idealistic and moral sounding. I’d like to see you do it.
I already did it boy, convinced out far right supporters out of it, people like me exist are the reason why they have not captured entire state And Its not idealistic, its practical, If one wants to live, cant allow rabid death cults to flourish. I think i know how to de radicalize people out of rabid hindutva thinking . And you cant eliminate it, that is only for them to decide, you can tone it down a lot though. Wont work on everyone, but will work well enough. And now everyone here knows that you never cared for poor pakistanis, your idea of patriotism is Anti -India hatred. You cant contribute to pakistan in any other way because to not toe the line of the army shit scares you the most.
Anti-Hindu hatred. And please, do not compare a rabid death cult with the so-called Hindu right wing.
no one is comparing anything, in other news A renowned #Ahmadi Dr. Sh Mahmood Ahmad sb associated to Fatima Hospital Sargodha shot dead.
The fact that you are a Pak patriot in spite of being educated in the US/UK shows your mentality.
.
as I had mentioned earlier, Pakistan is a north Indian obsession, east, south and Northwest India have nothing to do with it. even maharastra, Gujarat, and rajastaan are cold.
Whenever non nortthies lead India or Indian Armed Forces, Pakistan has got a bloody nose, like this time.
Mostly a UP-Bihar thing.
In the next 10 years even they will be way richer to Pak and forget about them like the rest of the country has.
South Indians don’t even consider Pak to be on the same level.
The recent skirmish shows that Indian Punjabis don’t hate Pakistan, and wounds of partition have mostly healed in Punjab. The centre of power has shifted to Gujrat (economic) and Gangetic plain (political/ideological) and most of the Pakistan hate and obsession is coming from them. Unfortunately Indian Punjabis bordering Pakistan often will face the brunt of any conflict with Pakistan and they will be used as artillery fodder by the Gujratis and Hindustanis.
I think Pakistan needs to rekindle phull sapport to the Khalistan movement again and convert the Two Nation Theory into a Three nation one. Moving the border with India 200 km east with a buffer state in between will grant some more strategic depth for Pakistani mainland. This should be our long term policy now.
Aah, Pakistanis and their delusions.
It’s like when Pakistanis fantasized about winning the T20 World Cup and then got kicked out in the first round by losing to a USA team consisting of software engineers and Uber drivers.
There are more Khalistanis in Canada than India where the Sikh population is anyways declining due to migration, lower fertility rate and conversion.
In the year 2024, there were 4 terrorist related killings in Punjab.
https://www.satp.org/datasheet-terrorist-attack/fatalities/india-punjab
Balochistan that number was 774
https://www.satp.org/datasheet-terrorist-attack/fatalities/pakistan-balochistan
KPK – 1343
https://www.satp.org/datasheet-terrorist-attack/fatalities/pakistan-khyberpakhtunkhwa
And barely 5 months into 2025, we can see the KPK and Balochistan numbers will be even worse than 2024.
Pakistan will get a couple of new buffer states, but on the western border not the eastern one.
Pakistani delusions are a thing to behold.
It’s like the 2024 T20 WC where they were aspiring to win the cup but got kicked out in the first round by a USA team consisting of software engineers and Uber drivers.
There are more Khalistanis in Canada than in India.
Here are some numbers.
Number of terrorist fatalities in Punjab in 2024 – 4
https://www.satp.org/datasheet-terrorist-attack/fatalities/india-punjab
Balochistan – 774
https://www.satp.org/datasheet-terrorist-attack/fatalities/pakistan-balochistan
KPK – 1363
https://www.satp.org/datasheet-terrorist-attack/fatalities/pakistan-khyberpakhtunkhwa
2025 numbers are 527 and 803 in Balochistan and KPK respectively and its not even been 5 months so this year will eclipse 2024.
Pakistan will get a few buffer states – but on the western border not the eastern one.
Hahahahaha. The delusions of Pakistanis.
There is a difference between desire and ability.
This is like in the recent T20 WC where Pakistan were planning on winning it but got kicked out in the first round after losing to a USA team consisting of software engineers and taxi drivers.
Let me give you some numbers.
2024 Casualties by terrorism
Punjab – 4
https://www.satp.org/datasheet-terrorist-attack/fatalities/india-punjab
Balochistan – 774
https://www.satp.org/datasheet-terrorist-attack/fatalities/pakistan-balochistan
KPK – 1363
https://www.satp.org/datasheet-terrorist-attack/fatalities/pakistan-khyberpakhtunkhwa
2025 numbers for Balochistan and KPK are 527 and 803 just 5 months in so this will be worse than 2024.
Pakistan is going to get a couple of buffer states, but on their western border.
P.S.: Pakistan Punjab had more terrorist fatalities than Indian Punjab in 2024.
https://www.satp.org/datasheet-terrorist-attack/fatalities/pakistan-punjab
Numbers facts if you may.
US Debt 30 Trillion
Interest on Debt One Trillion
Trade Deficit appox 1 Tillion (in 2022)
Let us say Trump brings down the trade deficit to zero (Idont think thats possible in short term 2-3 years).
Now just left with 30 trillion debt,
Pay down the debt (ignoring interest) by 1 Trillion a year
(i.e.350 billion a quarter)
That means taking 15 years to reduce debt by 50%
Even with unrealistic optimistic numbers you see it is an impossible task. To me I see the only way is to reduce the Defense Budget of almost a Trillion.
So already the US is realizing that waging war is too expensive. Maybe that was the reason US exited the war against the Houthis
In sharp contrast China is awash in cash and assets. It technology including military is increasing by leaps and bounds.
So I think Pakistan is not on all that bad wicket.
it isnt about money as much as leadership, money is a lagging signal of the quality of leadership. Chinese ccp has leaders with degrees in engineering ,phds, etc, from some of its top universities. When you fill your political leadership across ranks with super high iq people, it makes a big difference to be able to achieve long term plans, by comparison, US leaders are often lawyers. Indian leaders are less educated than that.I always believed the china pak axis would have won already against India but for the stupidity of pakistan that china has to drag them and pull them up. It is only pakistan stupidity that is buying time for India.
The growing number of people from Tsnighua university(china’s MIT) in ccp leadership position is fascinating. The literal equivalent of what happens if IITians in India were to join politics in a big number or MIT graduates joined US politics. Less than 1% chinese get accept to that university, The difference between 140-150 iq technocratic leadership vs democratic leaders chosen by less than 100 iq people. The difference will show itself in 20-30 yrs in a very clear way. And it already did in 15 yrs.
The truth starts coming out.
China didn’t just sell Pakistan jets. It handed them a smart warfighting package says Indiia
According to Ashok Kumar, director general of the Center for Joint Warfare Studies (CENJOWS), a research group operating under India’s Ministry of Defense, China helped Pakistan reorganize its radar systems and satellite coverage to better track Indian troop movements and military deployments.
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/india-says-china-provided-intelligence-pakistan-during-border-clashes
Why is this surprising? It’s quite obvious isn’t it?
[…] phyecho1 on Open Thread — On Foundational Clefts and Brown Pundits’ raison d’être […]
[…] Honey Kabir | Jet Lag: India, Pakistan, and the Theatre of the Air | Flame Thread Warning | Open Thread — On Foundational Clefts and Brown Pundits’ raison d’être | BP Ground Rules for […]