A Note from the Editor
Flame thread warning: Honey vs. Kabir.
Last nightโs open thread surged past 50 commentsโmost of it orbiting the now-familiar friction between the two.
Let me be clear: Iโm inclined toward Kabir. Heโs often overwrought, sometimes hyperbolic, but heโs a known quantity. Heโs been part of this space for nearly a decade. He is a “real person.” We know how he argues, where he lands, and the limits of his provocations.
Honey is harder to read. Multiple handles. No clear background. No track record. And a rhetorical posture that feels less like engagement, more like carpet bombingโespecially when it comes to Pakistan. Thereโs a difference between critique and hatred, and itโs usually in the tone. โPakistanis under-endowedโโLOL, happy to disprove that.
Moderation is evolving. I no longer think of it as refereeing an online debate. I think of it like hosting a discussion in my living room. That means:
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I will prioritize the familiar and accountable voice over the anonymous megaphone.
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I value tone and presenceโnot just content.
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This is not a free-for-all forum; there has to be some standards to maintain quality and engagement. Itโs a public agora, yes, but with rules and where body language matters. And online, a validated persona is body language.
To the regulars:
Disagreement is welcome. In fact, itโs the point. But disagreement must come with respect for the space. Youโre not shouting into the void. Youโre speaking among people who listen.
And that trustโthat shared sense of presenceโis what Iโll always defend.
โ ZacX a.k.a X.T.M
Acting Editor, Brown Pundits
Related Posts: Jet Lag: India, Pakistan, and the Theatre of the Air |ย Flame Thread Warning | Open Thread โ On Foundational Clefts and Brown Punditsโ raison dโรชtre | BP Ground Rules for Commenters
to the commentariat who accuse me of bias; step up and take an admin role but all I ask is don’t abuse it.
also while I’m not sharing contacts online, the best for people is to dm my twitter profile and I can share my contact details privately.
as an aside; wow 180 comments over the weekend, that’s just insane.
Buddy – you literally are not reading my post. If you simply want to start posting voided comments; feel free to continue what you are doing. I’ll just indiscriminately void them.
Write from a place of calm and perspective.
Write with a sense of calm; pause before posting. Come back to it.
Lol. I was on a holiday in Greece for a week, came back to see whatโs up and the itโs still flame wars. The commentators need to grow up a bit.
ah nice – sounds fun!!
It was. The highlight was the magnificent arch of Galerius celebrating the Roman rout of Persians and the sack of Ctesiphon, and the visit to Pella – birthplace of the Alexander the Great himself. Enjoyed the excellent yavana hospitality and fantastic beaches of Halkidiki – with Mt Olympus ever present in the horizon. Cradle of civilization!
Cradle of Western civilisation.
I thought the Parthians vanquished the Romans..
Alexander ๐ | wait till you visit Iran .. but of course India & China are the truest behemoths of them all..
Come on, Alex did a great job! The guy was a total champ.
Galeriusโ defeat of Narseh was quite humiliating actually, as Roman legions entered the Persian capital. Highly recommend the Arch. Took great photos of it with the kids.
Iran needs to civilize before I visit. My wife has vetoed it until they stop imposing the chador/head covering on womenโฆ I hope they get their act together soon.
Ah Dr. V says the same thing lol ..
Not surprised. I expect all self-respecting women to say this. Iran is in a terrible mess right now. That regime needs to change.
Functionally, the hijab is increasingly optional in major Iranian citiesโitโs a live, evolving issue.
That said, โself-respecting womenโ is not a useful or respectful frame. It reduces a complex rights issue into moral gatekeeping. Dr. V has her own principled stance, grounded in human rights, not gender conformity. Hereโs her Google Scholar linkโfeel free to share yours if youโd like to speak from authority:
https://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?user=c69gjE4AAAAJ&hl=en
As someone from a community at risk of state persecution in Iran since 1979 (and long before), Iโd suggest I come to this conversation with some standing.
Iโve known you a long time, but take this as a sincere editorial note: language like โself-respecting womenโ reeks of an older, more patriarchal South Asiaโwhere identity and worth are boxed into neat gendered categories. Banter is fine, but tone and texture matter.
Letโs leave it there. Iโll void any follow-ups, and ask that we keep things sharp, civil, and free of smarminess going forward.
I have been avoiding engaging with Mr. Honey Singh, but he keeps replying to every post of mine, not just with one but mutiple posts, with the sophistication of youtube comments section. There is not much to be gained, I request Mr Honey Singh that he choose other opponents to reply to.
If you peddle the sort of lies and rubbish that you do, expect to be replied to.
Don’t peddle those lies, there will be no replies.
I think they actually believe those lies. No point trying to engage based on facts.
This Kabir fella might be ‘known’ but he’s quite boringly one-note in touting the PakMil apologist line. Its not really a surprise that his nonsense is going to beget…..more nonsense.
yes but even so he has a right to his opinions. You can appreciate my point that known is preferable to anonymous. There is no accountability for one’s opinions.
oh of course, I’m all for trying to keep discussions more…civilized. However, it becomes challenging when one party starts flinging ad homimen BS like ‘hindutvavadi troll’ early and often. And just because ‘he’s been around for a while’ doesn’t mean that shouldn’t be pointed out. That’s all.
At the end of the day, I’m here to read interesting content, and happy to engage in discussions with differing, even opposing perspectives. Will try and do my bit not to get baited by Kabir or anyone else.
it’s fine if anyone is baiting; you can actually WhatsApp me. I don’t read all comments so I’m happy to get notified. or I’m happy to promote admins
Going to point out something (with my anonymous preference bias clearly stated).
Kabir says he is an American Citizen, as such this makes it very difficult for him to get in trouble in Pakistan for anything he says online. The risk to using his own name is low. (This might have nothing to do with his reasons for not being anonymous, but it remains the case).
Honey Singh posts as an Indian and I would guess as an Indian citizen, the protections for free speech are very low (as you can see with the arrest of Sharmistha Panoli and Mahmudabad Khan).
Indian visa holders in the US are even more likely to self censor now as their online presence is now grounds for deportation.
Just food for thought.
Thatโs a good point
I’m not a “PakMil apologist”. Believing that one’s country’s sovereignty and territorial integrity are red lines doesn’t mean that one is a military apologist.
I would be happy to discuss civilian supremacy in Pakistan some other time.
Also pointing out when someone is a “Hindutvadi” is not ad hominem when you clearly demonstrate those opinions. If you take offense to being called “Hindutvadi” how dare you accuse a Muslim commentator of “taqqiya”? Rules that apply to other people should apply to you as well.
Yes but Pakistan has been a disaster the last decade; India has not.
Pakistanis would do well to interrogate why; maybe itโs because itโs a neo-feudal hyper-militarised state?
“Disaster” is subjective. India has certainly regressed democratically ever since Modi came to power. This is not a Pakistani opinion but is generally accepted by the international community. Lynchings on suspicion of beef-eating etc is not a good look for a country that claims to be a secular state. It’s ironic that despite all the criticism of Pakistan, the ruling party in India really wants to turn their own country into a Hindu version of that country. Modi is India’s General Zia.
Pakistan Army can certainly be criticized for the oversize role it plays in politics. Civilian supremacy is important but that is an internal Pakistani conversation that can hardly be held in the face of threats from Indian trolls.
Ironically, India’s aggressive actions only serve to strengthen the Pakistan Army’s grip over the country. The Field Marshal is a lot stronger now than he was six months ago. Even the PTI people are not questioning him.
International opinion on Indian democracy is a joke.
Indians themselves feel democracy is well and thriving. Look at pew surveys or the democratic perception index.
India scores the highest of any nation.
It also scores extremely high amongst Indians who do not support the ruling party.
The democracy rankings are subjective indices by western organizations to influence and thereby enthrall developing nations to their ways of thinking.
Ultimately a democracy is answerable to its own people. The people are quite happy about the democracy as such. Not so much about corruption or press freedoms maybe but let’s not confuse the two.
You are of course free to reject Western opinions. Earlier, you rejected Ram Guha for pretty much pointing out the same thing (that India has regressed democratically).
The fact remains that on human rights (particularly minority rights) India has received a lot of criticism ever since Modi came to power.
It’s funny that some of you accuse me of being a “PakMil apologist” when a lot of you come off as apologists for the Modi regime.
I donโt think Indian democracy is as under threat; Modi did get a reduced majority
You are entitled to your opinion.
The international community however is concerned about democratic backsliding in India. Ram Guha spoke about this recently with Karan Thapar (in the context of why India is being re-hyphenated with Pakistan).
It’s fine for you to be critical of Pakistan but the same critical lens should be applied to religious bigotry in India.
You don’t find it dichotomy of espousing western liberal ideals and not having a single islamic state which abides by them.
Surveys don’t lie, they aren’t subjective, they don’t subscribe to someones ideals or opinions or cherry picking.
Here is the pew survey on satisfaction of people not supporting the ruling party vs those who do. It is the highest bar sweden.
gap_2024.02.28_democracy-closed-end_4_03.png
Ah yes, again the old argument “India is better than Islamic states”. That’s a very low standard.
Surveys are by definition subjective. It all depends on what questions are asked, who the questions are asked to etc.
But please go on and defend the Modi regime. You’re not convincing me.
Clearly it is not an India only survey to cherry pick a result. It is a global survey, everyone is asked the same question. India just comes off looking best.
Let me give you another one. Global dutch run survey.
https://6389062.fs1.hubspotusercontent-na1.net/hubfs/6389062/Canva%20images/Democracy%20Perception%20Index%202023.pdf
Page 9 &10. India tops the ranking in highest democratic perception and lowest democratic deficit.
I know you have your blinkers on and will not see the objective truth when shown. Still, have fun as your dissonance spirals ever more chaotically.
You can keep posting surveys till the cows come home. Surveys are subjective.
No amount of surveys change the fact that the international community is very concerned about Indian democratic backsliding and minority rights. But of course you are free to reject Western opinions of India. You are free to reject the views of liberal Indians such as Ram Guha.
“Objective truth”: There is no objective truth in political debate.
Are you seriously comparing a theocracy with a democracy? I think that itself should be sufficient to shut down any semblance of parity between the two.
No point even going there, even to compare is to hyphenate which is the deep desire you are gratifying.
LOL, I’m not the one who is hyphenating, the international community is hyphenating.
President Trump talks about India and Pakistan in the same breath. “Great people” on both sides. Threatening trade on both sides. Indians deeply resent this but what can you do?
Any “hyphenation” is on matters of security like North Korea-South Korea.
In terms of trade, pop culture etc it’s all India and South Korea. Pakistan and North Korea don’t even factor.
Trump can say whatever but it’s India with the Apple Stores and the Iphone factories and the Foxconn plants and the Coldplay concerts etc etc etc.
Even China doesn’t trust Pakistan enough to put some Oppo/Vivo plants there.
Spot on!
Nothing Pakistanis like more than Indians giving them attention or being associated with them.
Human nature tbh.
If you leave a company to form your own company and that company becomes big while your own suffers, then it begets the question: what was the point?
Pakistan’s biggest fear is being left behind and ignored – becoming the Mexico to India’s USA.
A lot of Pakistanis have admitted to that.
From Kamila Shamsie’s article (written in 2007. Gap has grown way bigger)
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/aug/14/india.features116
Osman Samiuddin’s article on India’s perfect record in cricket world cups
https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/osman-samiuddin-meekened-pakistan-still-waiting-to-prick-india-s-bubble-830669
This was written in 2015 and India have got the “crazy-diamond fast bowler” – someone better than anyone produced by Pakistan.
Pakistan is not a theocracy.
Please go look up the English definition of “theocracy”. That word doesn’t mean what you think it means.
She isn’t far off. Your constitution is pretty much dedicating the nation to your god first.
The “Objectives Resolution” is the preamble to the Constitution not the operative portion. “Sovereignty belongs to Allah alone” is a rhetorical move.
Iran is a theocracy. Pakistan is not. Don’t twist English definitions out of shape. ( I was an English major. I have extremely low tolerance for misuse of the language).
Would be far better if you had lower tolerance for terrorism but too high of a bar for you.
And if you are an English major, what the hell are you doing in Lahore, Kabira? Teaching at LUMS?
Just had to ask, is the name you’re referencing inspired by the Hera Pheri character?
Any country where Ahmadis are non Muslims and non Muslims cannot hold the highest position in the country is a theocracy.
India has had both non Hindu PMs as well as presidents.
theocracy: “a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god” That is the definition.
Priests do not rule Pakistan.
I am not going to defend the parliament of Pakistan’s decision to rule Ahmadis non-Muslim. As far as I am concerned whether someone is a Muslim or not is between them and Allah.
I personally would not be bothered by a non-Muslim Prime Minister. However, Pakistan has never claimed to be a constitutionally secular state (unlike India which does claim to be one). Pakistan is an “Islamic Republic”.
De Jure. De facto autocracy/theocracy/stratocracy led by field marshal hafiz Asim Munir.
Not just me saying it. Your own countrymen do not feel democracy in those surveys you are happily choosing to ignore.
With all due respect, you (and other Indians) have next to no idea about Pakistan.
I posted the definition of “theocracy”. The English language is not subjective. Words mean what the agreed upon definition says they mean. Priests do not rule Pakistan. Therefore Pakistan is not a theocracy. I’m not going to belabor this further.
“Military dictatorship”: Pakistan is not a military dictatorship. Yes, there have been periods of direct Army rule under Ayub, Zia, and Musharraf. They were military dictators. No one is arguing that they were not. I have never once on this forum defended military dictatorship.
Pakistan is a “managed democracy”. We have a “hybrid” system. No one stays in power if they get on the wrong side of the Army–whether that is Imran Khan or Shahbaz Sharif. Nawaz was removed by the “establishment”. They brought in Imran. They got rid of Imran when he became a liability.
Whether it should be a “hybrid” democracy or not is a separate issue. I have views on that but I’m not going to discuss civilian supremacy with hostile Indians.
No hostility really, since you keep mentioning Guha (is it 4 or 5 times now?) in “The Wire” and the “international community” concerns about backsliding Indian democracy I thought I would show you some proof that what Indians actually feel about it (and it is their democracy after all) is very different. This includes the opposition.
You choose to ignore it and call it all subjective.
Given that Pakistan is an Islamic state in practice currently ruled by an extremely religious field marshal who quotes from the koran in most of his speeches, a random person on the internet can be quite justified in declaring it to be a Theocracy.
How is it that we sitting outside Pakistan cannot have a valid opinion about it but you keep insisting that western NGOs and a biased paper are right about India.
Words have meanings. We have gone over the definition of “theocracy” several times now. Priests do not rule Pakistan. The Chief of Army Staff may quote from the Quran. Lots of people in Pakistan quote from the Quran. It’s an “Islamic Republic” after all. What’s your point?
Iran is a theocracy since it is literally run by Ayatollahs. That’s not how Pakistan works.
Your opinion is not invalid because you are sitting outside Pakistan. It’s invalid because you don’t have accurate information about how the country operates. Christine Fair for example is American but she has deeply researched how the Pakistan Army works. I may not agree with her on everything but I can’t say she doesn’t know what she’s talking about.
And of course you call “The Wire” a “biased paper”. Your right wing bias is showing. How about you call them traitors while you’re at it?
And the journalists at “The Wire” are Indian. Presumably they know what’s happening in their own country.
I’m sure you can cherry pick opinions and argue semantics all day.
The point is India is a democracy and its citizens are extremely convinced this is the case.
So far in this chain we have autocracy, theocracy, stratocracy, kleptocracy, neo-feudal hyper militarised state. Personally I like Shashi Tharoor quoting Bismark, it is an army with a state. All seem pretty valid from our ring side seat of your self implosion.
Who said India wasn’t a democracy? Democratic backsliding doesn’t mean it’s not a democracy.
Frankly, you’re not as smart as you think you are. But please go ahead and bring out some more surveys.
We’ve established you don’t understand the meaning of English words. I think “theocracy” has now been explained to you for the umpteenth time. Pathetic.
But when you dedicate the state to the Islamic Got od and religion and your leader is a hafiz who keeps reciting the Holy Quran…. and all the Maulana Azhar and the other hafiz (Saeed) are overt arms of the govt….
I guess you’re backsliding from a dictatorship into a theocracy.
In a republic ultimate power in with citizenry with the vote. The word ultimate is doing all the heavy lifting here. You want to be a republic and might have been if it weren’t for all the rigged elections and party disbanding and jailing of elected leaders and exiling of prime ministers and presidents and shooting of protestors and so on and so on……
You have no idea what “theocracy” means. You’re repeating yourself.
Pakistan is 97% Muslim. What is the big issue if the “Objectives Resolution” states that “sovereignty belongs to Allah alone”? It’s symbolic rhetoric.
Obviously, Pakistani democracy has issues. There is a pattern of military coups and no one is defending that. The first government that completed five years and handed over power to another elected government was (i believe) in 2013 when the PPP handed over power to the PML-N. Pakistanis have internal discussions about the overweening role of the Army and the need for civilian supremacy. We don’t discuss that with those who are already hostile to the country.
Pakistan is constitutionally an “Islamic Republic”. That accounts for your “dedicating the state to an Islamic god”. The country was formed for the Muslims of British India. Otherwise there was no point to Partition.
And so what if Pakistani leaders recite the Quran? Again, the country is 97% Muslim. India’s leaders talk about “The Ramayana” and “The Mahabharata”. In a Hindu majority country, leaders will refer to Hindu mythology. In a Muslim-majority one, leaders will refer to Islamic scripture.
I lightly edited your comment to capitalise various things.
Nothing is sacred but I do feel itโs worth everyone โrespectingโ anotherโs religion
๐ and introduced a typo in doing so. It’s Got od now. Happily in my world there is no offense at all.
Why does Kabir get hung up on Theocracy so? It’s hardly better or worse than being in an islamic military dictatorship. Is it that it’s easier to argue semantics? Bizarre behaviour at any rate.
Because words have meanings. You cannot make up definitions in the English language.
Pakistan is not a theocracy. Neither is it a military dictatorship. It has been a dictatorship in the past.
If you want to be accurate (which I don’t think you are interested in) it’s a “hybrid democracy”.
Does de facto theocratic military dictatorship tick the semantics box for you then?
of course not. Its a kleptocracy. For generations enslaved by an elite that LARPs with uniforms and shiny medals, Failed marshal etc etc.
Please go look up definition of ‘kleptocracy’. You just might find Pakistan listed as a texbook example.
there’s no point ‘arguing’ with him – he keeps shifting goalposts – bashes India for falling short of some arbitrary standards based on random half-truths, while refusing to apply anywhere near the same standards for Pak. ‘of course we are Islamic’. ‘so what if PakMil enslaves its citizens, thats an internal discussion’. I mean, he’s a hypocrite PakMil apologist focused on comment-jihad. Its boringly one-note.
Does comment-jihad translate to taqqiya? I don’t think it does. I think the Chinese term for paid troll is wu-mao. Not sure what the compensation terms are for ISPR phifth jenrayshun mujahids. Of course both get a lot of unpaid enthusiastic volunteers. Stockholm Syndrome is a thing.
I like how you didn’t even touch upon the economy and everything else that flows from it – metro systems, moon missions, G20 hosting etc etc etc
One country’s “sovereignty and territorial integrity” are bound to be respected if that country respects other’s which Pakistan does not – in case of both India and Afghanistan.
A country which uses terrorist proxy groups to kill innocents as a state policy is not a “proper country” and shouldn’t be treated as one.
Sorry, respecting sovereignty is an international norm. That’s why armies are there.
According to Pakistan, India is using terrorist proxies to kill people in Balochistan. The same principle applies there or is it OK for you to do it but not for us?
Not interested in dealing with more of your trolling.
There is ZERO international evidence of India using proxies in Balochistan.
India does not even share a border with Balochistan.
Are you saying Pakistani intelligence is so incompetent that India can collaborate with some people who are many many miles away from the border.
That would be like blaming Pakistanis for Naxalites.
You are the troll here, Kabira.
Sure and Kulbushan Yadav was just a tourist in Balochistan.
Both countries are conducting proxy wars against each other. Both should stop.
you justify PakMil’s kleptocratic illegal enslavement of Pakistanis as ‘acceptable internal matter’. you steadfastly cherrypick bullshit and your arguments and templates exhibit all traits of a diploma holder from the school of phifth jenraaayshun waarphair. I mean, its fine, its the internet. Everyone’s free to waste their time in silly ways.
But if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck…
“If it walks like a duck”… Sure. And you sound exactly like a Hindutvadi Troll despite your claimed “atheism”.
I’m not interested in engaging you anymore. You don’t argue in good faith.
Calm
you have zero basis for asserting that I’m a ‘hindutvawadi’. Zero of my comments have any reference to Hinduism or anything related to that. But purely because I’m harshly critical of the Pakistani state and PakMil specifically, you chose to attack me personally with that tag.
It doesn’t really bother me, only goes to demonstrate your intellectual dishonesty. On top of that, you are quick to whine and demand censorship and ‘take offense’.
If there was an AI bot that went through the ISPR diploma of phifth jenrayshun vaarphaair curriculum, it’d sound a lot like you.
On the flip side, you dispute being referred to as a PakMil apologist when you repeatedly defend PakMil’s kleptocratic illegal enslavement of Pakistanis. I mean…that’s literally what an apologist does…
Thanks Daves- general to all
If anyone starts name calling; Iโll just void the comment.
Iโd like commentators to breathe take a stroll then post. No point having your words wasted.
Letโs not descend to insults all around .
fine. I’ll declare a unilateral ceasefire. For the timebeing ๐
droll
Oh you’ve “paused” your operation? Like Hindu Hriday Samrat?
I’m not someone you can mess with.
“phifth generation”– You keep descending to this level.
I have literally been educated at the best institutions in the US and UK. I am an American citizen.
You have no idea who you are speaking to.,
And someone who accuses a Muslim commentator of “taqiyya” is not just “critical of PakMil” but downright Islamophobic.
X.T.M: are you going to let Indians get away with attacking Islam? “Taqiyya” is beyond offensive.
[…] Flame Thread Protocols: Honey Kabir June 1, 2025 […]
I’m sorry for being provoked by “Honey Singh”. It would have been better to just ignore someone who is clearly trolling.
However, there is no excuse for calling a commentator a “terrorist” or suggesting that they be sent to “Guantanamo”. There is also no excuse for calling someone an “Islamist” or telling them they engage in “taqqiya”. This is simply bullying of Pakistani commentators.
[…] like a silent pack. Kabir absorbs the outrage, and I instinctively sympathizeโuntil I realize, as xperia2015 rightly pointed out, that many of our Indian commenters must remain anonymous just to speak freely. […]