In the comments on “Pakistanis=Indian Muslims With Sovereignty”, BB argued that India is a “Muslim Power”. This is a patently ridiculous argument but it merits a full rebuttal.
The simple fact is that India is NOT a Muslim country. India is 80% Hindu. Muslims are a minority (approximately 15%). India is a constitutionally secular state. So under no reasonable definition is India a “Muslim Power”.
Pakistan is the world’s second-largest Muslim-majority country. It is projected that within five years it will overtake Indonesia to become the world’s most populous Muslim country. Additionally, Pakistan is the only Muslim-majority nuclear power. Finally, Pakistan is an “Islamic Republic”.
This argument is so blatantly ridiculous and disingenuous that I can’t believe this clarification is even necessary. But here we are.
I’d also like to take this opportunity to clarify my exchange with El Khawaja. He argued that “Pakistanis are Pakistani and that’s it”. I disagree with this position. I am as patriotic as the next Pakistani but this quote expresses the belief of the State — a belief I argue is fundamentally wrong.
Post the loss of East Pakistan in 1971, the Pakistani State has doubled down on the belief that we are all “Pakistanis first”. The argument goes that if people are allowed to identify as “Punjabi”, “Sindhi” etc this may lead to secession. This is obviously a red line for the State. Thus, the introduction of “Pak Studies”, a course that all students must take from primary school through their undergraduate studies.
However, this indoctrination has not served to lessen people’s feelings of being “Punjabi”, “Sindhi” etc.
It would be much healthier if the Pakistani State accepted that Pakistan is a multi-ethnic–NOT multinational– country.
Seccession is not a realistic possibility since Pakistan is a nuclear power. So I think the State’s worries on this ground are overblown.
The efforts of BB (and to some extent RNJ) to undermine the Pakistani identity and classify us as “Indian” are patently obvious and not intellectually tenable.
However, I do believe that my compatriots also go too far and try to downplay the links that Pakistan has with the “Indian subcontinent”.
“I’d also like to take this opportunity to clarify my exchange with El Khawaja. He argued that “Pakistanis are Pakistani and that’s it”. I disagree with this position. I am as patriotic as the next Pakistani but this quote expresses the belief of the State — a belief I argue is fundamentally wrong.
Post the loss of East Pakistan in 1971, the Pakistani State has doubled down on the belief that we are all “Pakistanis first”. The argument goes that if people are allowed to identify as “Punjabi”, “Sindhi” etc this may lead to secession. This is obviously a red line for the State. Thus, the introduction of “Pak Studies”, a course that all students must take from primary school through their undergraduate studies.”
This is a misrepresentation of what I said. I didn’t deny the ethnic diversity or various subnational identities within Pakistan and neither did I rank any of these identities in order. When I said Pakistanis are Pakistanis, that was in response to the thread title that Pakistanis were supposedly just “Muslim Indians that strayed. For me Pakistani is a nationality that stands entirely on its own legs, the same way a Canadian is a Canadian and an American is an American and Brazilian is a Brazilian – this isn’t to deny the vast diversity in each of those countries and the various identities that exist nor does it insinuate that everyone from those countries necessarily identifies with the civic national identity first.
We are the Admin of this site and we have just gone through your comments, which are racist against the ancient and noble Dravidian People.
Do that again and we will remove every single comment of yours on this site.
Chennai is, far and away, the best city in the entire Indian Subcontinent.
Every single one of my comments was in retaliation against racism and hate directed against Pakistanis from username: BombayBadshah. Apparently he gets a free reign to be racist despite his very first article (greenlighted by admins) that sexualized and fetishized Pakistani women a couple months back. You can ask Kabir who started with the insults.
Dravidians may be a noble culture and Chennai may be a great city, that’s fine but to expect Pakistanis to constantly absorb racist abuse and not say anything back is unrealistic and unfair.
Respect is mutual.
Have they not been moderated out; both of you cannot stress the moderation load.
You are new hence we have shown more latitude but do not stoop to a low level. We have removed more than a 100 comments in a single sitting.
Our policies are evolving, fairly strict but fundamentally fair.
Nope, he was posting all kinds of insults.
Anyways I do apologize for getting carried away in the heat of the moment and any offense caused to any South Indian posters.
Yes please don’t do that again. This still is moderated just not on a full time basis; commentators are encouraged to email in offensive comments to be moderated out.
You’re not objectively superior in anyway, whatever that even means.
It doesn’t matter what people score on those metrics, if there is obsession.
You’re blatantly lying, every single one of your comments is laced with insults whether it be about race, religion, jobs, female relatives,etc
Yes he does and can see your insults and constantly belittling of Pakistan and insults towards Pakistanis and the constant debasement of our identity. Your initial posts weren’t even about economic metrics (which is irrelevant in a cultural discussion) but all about trying to tear down and insult Pakistan and how we choose to identify. No one would take kindly to comments by people deny their culture and the constant vilification of our people.
There’s no “mask off”, it’s retaliation for every one of your insults towards Pakistanis and your attempts are trying to insult and debase of our identity. Telling someone that their country’s culture or identity is that of another country, doesn’t fly well with most national groups. Trying doing what you did to an Albanian or an Indonesian, they wouldn’t put up with that.
Spearchuckers doesn’t even refer to Africans, it’s a term used by northeast Asians for southeast Asians and in the context of south Asia it would refer to the regions south of the vindhyas.
Dravidian Civilisation is a cut above; go to Mahabalipurram and be in awe of what Dravidian Empires were creating millennia ago.
Sri Lanka and the Maldives are probably the most developed parts of the Indian Subcontinent?
The more Dravidian = the more prosperous seems a good rule?
Sri Lanka and the Maldives are Indo Aryan.
The Indo-Aryan-Dravidian schism also a played a role in the Sri Lankan civil war from what I’ve read on the conflict.
That term was being used by northeast asians long before any development, it has more to do with the tropical climate and jungle terrain of southeast Asia similar to south india. Pakistanis are from the riverine plains, deserts and mountains, so it doesn’t refer to us. The equivalent term for us would be cavemen, camel j0ckeys or mountain ninjas/hillbillies.
it does not matter BB; you know the rules .
It’s not about “getting dirty” we would have understood had there been no moderation or you didn’t have access to the Admin.
After Kabir, you are the most indulged Commentator on this site, because we are fond of both of you and your perennial antics.
But be like Kabir, he made two excellent posts and is using his Author Privileges, which you have.
Instead you are duelling it with a new commentator like El Khwaja, who is yet to be fully acquainted with the site.
Don’t abuse that. And you have excellent facts and figures and arguments; use them in a post like how Kabir did?
We can reset it for
You
I agree BB had a meltdown first. But you didn’t need to respond in kind.
I apologize if I misinterpreted what you said. But “Pakistanis are Pakistanis” is actually the position of the State which I fundamentally disagree with.
It would be far healthier if the Pakistani State recognized that we are a multi-ethnic country.
Identities like “Punjabi” “Sindhi” “Pashtun” are far older than the nation-states of Pakistan and India.
I don’t at all endorse the argument made by BB that Pakistanis are “Muslim Indians that strayed”. We carry Pakistani passports. We are a distinct nation.
Excellent post, Bravo Kabir.
Thanks.
India being a “Muslim power” was just so ridiculous.
it’s fairly obvious there is a
USA-Israel-India-UAE axis
China-Russia-Iran-North Korea Quad
EU, rest of GCC & Pakistan kind of straddle both
The ruling party in India, since 2014, has exactly how many Muslim members of parliament again?
‘Muslim power’ indeed.
That doesn’t even matter.
India is 80% Hindu. It’s not a Muslim-majority country. How can it be a “Muslim power”?
It was definitely a Muslim power during the Delhi Sultanate and the Mughal Empire. It was majority Hindu then too
Power status is determined from the top.
It was clear from the context that the discussion was about the modern nation-state of India. Not only is not a Muslim-majority country it is a constitutionally secular state.
I agree the Mughal Empire was a Muslim power.
Pakistan has more influence than India in the Middle East, let alone Indian Muslims.
I’ve got a life so I know it’s best not to engage with useless drivel like “we got Shahrukh Khan” and “Indian muslim shopping mall CEO” signifies influence.
Agreed.
This obsession with Bollywood actors to point out how well Indian Muslims are supposedly doing is very disingenuous.
Indian Muslims are a beleaguered minority–very much second class citizens with respect to the Hindu majority.
Pakistani Muslims run the show in our country.
I’m clear which one I’d rather be. I always want to be in the group that’s running the show.