Part 1: Who Can Speak for the Muslims of India
Part 2
BB has made a comment calling Pakistanis “strayed Muslim Indians“; which does not quite make sense, because Pakistanis are both Indic & Islamic, uniquely so. One cannot deny the highly syncretic and distinct Muslim subculture that has come about from a very long and deep history in India. It cannot be subsumed into an Indian identity in any meaningful way without acknowledging that distinctiveness.
But the phrasing opens a useful equation.
Pakistanis = Indian Muslims with sovereignty.
The real question is the one General Zia is said to have answered: what is the price of sovereignty? Zia’s answer was that you cannot put a price on freedom. The nuclear option is the load bearing wall of that claim. No one messes with Pakistan the way they have messed with Iran, or Iraq, or Libya. That is what sovereignty bought.
Partition has been very good for the Hindus. Two-thirds of the pre-1947 Indian Muslim population received sovereignty; first Pakistanis, then Bangladeshis on their own terms. The middle third did not. And this is exemplified most sharply by the Kashmiri scenario: a Kashmiri Muslim in Pakistan is sovereign but poor; a Kashmiri Muslim in India is subordinated but rising. Indian capital now pours into the Valley at a rate no Pakistani budget could match. The Indian Muslim can never really have sovereignty, because that is exactly what Jinnah and Nehru agreed against in Gandhi’s conception; Hindus and Muslims would otherwise have been constantly struggling and catalysing each other’s sovereignties, the way Israelis and Palestinians now do.
And Hindus, too, have been acquiring sovereignty as a political concept, despite being 80 per cent of the largest population on earth. There is a distinct demographic anxiety at work, not unlike Israeli Jews who are 80 per cent of their country yet surrounded by predominantly Muslim states. The historical memory is real: previously Hindu-Buddhic societies like Indonesia and Malaysia became Muslim societies. The Malays as a race went from Hindu to Muslim. That is what was lost to Dharma.
Sovereignty, freedom, self-awareness: these are not abstract. For decades the Israelis had far greater sovereignty than any of their neighbours (or rather Asabiyyah), and then all of a sudden Palestinian sovereignty began to furiously emerge too. Sovereignty is not static. It is catalysed.
So what did Pakistani sovereignty cost? It cost the civilisational continuity that Indian Muslims retained by staying. It cost eighty years of HDI that Gangetic Muslims accumulated under a Hindu majority. The Sachar Committee numbers do not flatter India. The HDI numbers do not flatter Pakistan.
What it bought was the one thing Indian Muslims will never have: the right not to be governed by someone else’s majority.
Whether that trade was worth it is the endlessly debated question that Partition has left behind.
Your mention of Palestine doesn’t make sense.
Palestine–the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem– is internationally considered Occupied Territory.
Indian Muslims are Indian citizens. Even Kashmiris are Indian citizens (whether willingly or not).
The comparison of Hindus to Israeli Jews is not flattering to Hindus. Israeli Jews have been subjugating Palestinians since the Nakba.
Azad Essa has written an entire book on the alliance between India and Israel.
As for the larger point: As a Pakistani nationalist, I do believe the fact that 250 million Pakistanis rule ourselves as opposed to being minorities in a Hindu-majority nation is worth the sacrifices of Partition.
A man who owns his own shack is better than the slave who serves in a mansion.
This is the dilemma facing Muslims of Kashmir. Infact this is also the dilemma facing Muslims in the MiddleEast (wrt to Israel, USA). The Arabs chose slavery, while Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Turkey chose freedom. It’s clear where the heart of ‘Islamic civilization’ is now.
Do the Pakistanis ‘own their shack’ though, is the question to be asked. From Yahya to Zia to Musharraf to Munir, Pakistan’s ‘shack’ has been owned in a manner that …arguably does not quite fit the definition of ‘sovereignty’.
If you can defend your land, you own your land. Its as simple as that. People make it seem complicated because they dont want to accept reality.
RNJ likes playing these semantic games.
Sovereignty is very clearly defined in the English language.
Pakistan is a sovereign and nuclear-armed Muslim nation. We are not subject to the rule of a Hindu-majority.
No amount of “slavery of the Awaam” and anti Pak-Fauj talking points will change that reality.
But Pakistan can’t. They lost half of it in 1971.
And many areas of Balochistan/KPK are no go areas.
The Peshawar and Quetta PSL teams have played no games in Peshawar and Quetta ever.
Pakistan is a nuclear weapon state. It wasn’t one in 1971.
@XTM: BB is up to his old tricks. This constant spewing of anti-Pakistan animus is getting ridiculous.
@X.T.M: Why is Kabir replying to me?
To expect me not to participate in a discussion about a statement I made is foolish.
Once again, you can “participate”. You cannot spew anti-Pakistan hatred.
“They lost half of it in 1971” is a gratuitous and triggering comment.
I’m going to go back to ignoring you now. But I am warning you that I am watching and if you step out of line, you will be reported to XTM.
@X.T.M: Again, what I am stating is a fact.
Pakistanis weren’t able to “defend their land” in 1971 and lost more than half the country.
That is a fact.
If people find it “triggering”, that is none of my business.
Just answer the simple question:
Were you or were you not told that this is your “probationary period” and you are not to criticize Pakistan or Islam?
I’ve seen the emails so denials are not going to help your case.
@X.T.M: Please rein him in.
I have not interacted with @Kabir at all and even in these comments am tagging you instead of talking to him.
This entire post is about my statement of Pakistanis being “strayed Muslim Indians” so obviously I will participate and I am not criticizing anyone.
@Kabir thinks speaking facts which make his country look bad is “criticizing”.
If you don’t like what is in the mirror, the fault is not in the mirror.
If @Kabir has issues he can make his own argument in the comments without replying to me.
Sneaking in Pakistan into “Islamic civilization” lol.
Turkey – Ottoman Empire
Iran – Safavid Empire
Afghanistan – Durrani Empire
What is the largest empire by Pakistani Muslims? Maula Jutt’s village?
The largest Punjabi empire was a non Muslim one – the Sikh empire
And no kanging over Mughals will make Punjabis, Sindhis etc Mughal.
There are more descendants of the Mughals in the Samajwadi party than in Pakistan.
And almost all Pakistanis will never set foot in the Taj Mahal.
What then is the definition of ‘sovereignty’ ? And is it fair to say that Bangladesh has it, but West Pakistan does not?
It’s not a contest, both are sovereign countries but Bangladesh has less geopolitical space to be one as its surrounded from all 4 sides from a much larger and geopolitically ambitious neighbor so that to a large extent limits and dampens their sovereignty.
Even Pakistan is surrounded on their “main side” by that neighbour and unlike Bangladesh is surrounded on the “second main side” by a bunch of Islamic yahoos.
So much sovereignty over KPK and Balochistan that Pakistan is scared to play cricket matches there.
@XTM;
You had told BB to lay off Pakistan and Islam during his “probationary period”.
He’s not keeping to his side of the bargain.
@XTM: Why is @Kabir replying to my comment?
The agreement was no interaction on Kabir’s posts and comments and vice versa.
This entire post is about a statement I made so to expect me not to participate in it is foolish.
You were explictly told to “lay off Pakistan and Islam”.
If you’re so big on sticking to letters of “agreements”, please recall that that was part of it.
I have no problem with you “participating”. Spewing anti-Pakistan hatred is not on.
@X.T.M – This entire post is about a statement I made.
And there is nothing “Anti-Pakistan” about what I said.
I was just replying to a post using FACTS.
“So much sovereignty over KPK and Balochistan that Pakistan is scared to play cricket matches there.”
This is a FACT.
Peshawar/Quetta have played ZERO games in these cities in the 11 years of the PSL.
If that irks someone, it is on them.
They could easily provide a scorecard proving me wrong but that scorecard doesn’t exist.
“Pakistan is sacred to play cricket matches there” is not a FACT but an OPINION.
Don’t play this game with me. Your anti-Pakistan animus is obvious to everyone.
I’ve seen the emails from XTM telling you that you cannot comment on Pakistan and Islam during your probationary period.
@X.T.M:
Why is @Kabir still talking to me?
The “probationary” period is over. I am an author now..
Anyways this entire post is about my statement so not to expect me to participate is dumb.
PCB not hosting PSL matches in Quetta/Peshawar due to security is a fact.
https://www.arabnews.com/node/2632564/amp
Really? The “probationary period” lasted 24 hours?
Let’s let @XTM take the final call on this.
Watch who you call “dumb”.
Pakistanis are just Pakistanis, we don’t need any further definitions. Pakistanis are not “Muslim Indians that strayed” no more than Ukranians are Russians that strayed or Venezuelans are Colombians that strayed or Californians are Mexicans that strayed or the Belgians are Dutch that strayed, so on and so forth.
Regarding the “development” in Kashmir, I’d recommend speaking to Kashmiris from the valley to hear about the reality of those developments, from what I’ve heard from regular Kashmiris is that they’re not seeing any of the benefits of those programs. Life is still very hard for them, even getting a passport or unrestricted internet access is extremely difficult if not nearly impossible.
I disagree with you slightly. Pakistanis are “Muslim Indians” in the sense that Punjabis and Sindhis are ethnically “Indian”. Obviously, we’re not Indian in the sense of the nation-state.
Agree on Kashmir. There are still hundreds of thousands of Indian troops in the Valley. Many Kashmiri Muslims will tell you that they are a people under Occupation (obviously not all of them feel that way).
I vote that you become an author here. There needs to be more Pakistani representation to push back against the obnoxious levels of Indian (and “soft Hindutva”) nationalism.
No, Punjabis and Sindhis have nothing to do with India.
With all due respect to a fellow compatriot, this is a ridiculous statement.
My nana’s family was from Amritsar. And we are just one family. There are plenty of Punjabis in Pakistan with roots in Ludhiana, Jalandar, etc.
Punjabis on both sides of the Radcliffe Line are ethnically the same. We just happen to be Muslim while the ones on the other side are Hindu or Sikh.
Yeah and that just makes you Punjabi by ethnicity, not Indian otherwise you’re insinuating non-Indo Aryans can’t be Indians and there goes the entire southern Indian botfarm/online narrative control operatio – all of their works are for nothing then lmao..
With all due respect, there is a difference between being “Indian” ethnically and a citizen of the Indian nation-state.
That’s my limited point.
Two of my four grandparents were from what is today India. Whatever I feel about the Republic of India, I’m not going to deny that history.
My father loves Agra. When he made a group to connect all his far flung relatives it was called “AgraNET”.
Indian is not an ethnicity, it’s a multi-ethnic country. Even countries as small as Sri Lanka and Nepal are multi-ethnic. Indian is only an ethnicity to ignorant non-south Asians who think all Brown people are the same and you’re playing into that.
“Indian” is not an ethnicity. It’s a nationality.
But Punjabi, Sindhi etc are very much ethnicities.
Anyway, we can agree to disagree. I’m obviously further to the left than you when it comes to the Pakistani spectrum.
Yes and no one is disputing that, I’m disputing you classifying them as “ethnic Indians” and your usage of the term Indian as an ethnicity. This is not an “agree to disagree” thing, you can’t do that over a widely accepted fact – Punjabis and Sindhis and every single Indo-Aryan ethnic group in Pakistan is their own ethnic group, not just mere “ethnic Indians”. As a leftist would you say Danes are just ethnic Germans? Would you say Kurds are just ethnic Iranians? Are Spaniards just ethnic Latins? Even the leftists in each of those countries would never accept just a broad categorization of their identity, left-right thing unless by left you mean you’re so far to the left that you support some post-national deracinated humanist one world government type of order where ethnic groups don’t exist, thus the attempts to debase Pakistan’s identity and ethnic groups.
Anyways don’t mean to come off as hostile, just mildly annoyed.
Danes, Germans, Spaniards, Latins are all ethnic “Europeans” though.
Just like Punjabi, Sindhi etc are all ethnic “Indian”.
They have been ethnic “Indians” for millenia.
I know Pakistanis don’t like that the Republic of India shares the same name “India” and is the successor state.civilization state but that’s just the way it is, sorry. Even Jinnah was irked by that fact.
Pakistanis may try to create a new nationalism for themselves but it won’t change reality.
There is a reason it is called the Indian subcontinent and the Indian ocean.
You can’t change who you are, El Khawapoor.
“Indian” is very much an ethnicity like “European”. It’s a superset ethnicity.
Your second line and previous comments do very much indicate you are very irked by the fact that people see you as “Indians”.
It’s like the emperor’s new clothes. You can pretend otherwise but you can’t hide what you are.
Uh El Khwapoor, that’s not the gotcha you think that is.
There is a thing called a superset.
Just because Punjabis and Sindhis are Indian doesn’t mean South Indians aren’t.
EVERYTHING from the Indus to Kanyakumari is “Indian”.
Yeah, Punjabis who were celebrating “Vasant Panchami” in their biggest city a few months ago has nothing to do with India lol.
Pathans and Baloch yes.
But Punjabis, Sindhis, Muhajirs are the Indianest of Indians.
Heck, their entire non Muslim cohort (and even Muslim cohort for Muhajirs) live in present day India.
Punjabis especially as almost all Punjabi language media comes from India which Pakistani Punjabis love consuming.
Here is the rare instance where I actually agree with you (to an extent).
It is quite ridiculous of Q to say that Punjabis have nothing to do with India.
Punjabis on both sides of the Radcliffe Line are ethnically the same.
I will be singing bhajans and shabads at a Vaisakhi event in Lahore this afternoon.
Basant is a Punjabi festival, no one denies that. If according to you Punjabis, Sindhis and Muhajirs are the “Indianest of Indians” therefore they’re the benchmark – the definition of being Indian, which would mean Dravidian south Indians are not Indian at all. However that’s not how the world works in this Westphalian nation-state world order.
Agreed.
Basant isn’t just a “Punjabi” festival.
Basant or “Vasant Panchami” or “Saraswati Puja” is celebrated all over “India” (including the parts in Pakistan).
I never said South Indians are not the “Indianest of Indians”.
Everything from the Indus to Kanyakumari is “Indian”.
I am not talking of nation states but a people.
Anglo-Saxons are Anglo-Saxons even though they may be American, British, Canadian, Australian or New Zealander.
Just like you are American by citizenship but “Indian” by ethnicity.
He’s not “Indian” by ethnicity.
He’s Pakistani-American (just as I am).
This is getting a bit ridiculous.
In Pakistan it is a Punjabi festival, well specifcally a kite-flying festival that’s held during BBQ season in Pakistan. It’s just a time to have a good time with family and friends, although it was dormant for 20 years and just revived. Pakistanis, more specifically central Punjabis celebrate it as a cultural festival with no religious connotations. It’s like an atheist from the former the former Eastern bloc celebrating Christmas or an American kid celebrating Halloween (Derived from the Celtic Samhain.
Notice how you say Anglo-saxons and not English/British because you know for a fact that most Americans, Canadians, Aussies and Kiwis do not identify as British and especially not Americans, people here would hate to be called English. Most Anglo-Americans started listing their ethnicity as “American” once it was added as a category on the census.
I’m a Pakistani-American by ethnicity and will never identify as indian.
In Pakistan it can be whatever it is but it doesn’t change what it actually is.
In India, Christmas is “just a time to have a good time with family and friends” – doesn’t change what it is.
Most Americans, Canadians, Aussies and Kiwis do not identify as “British” because Britain is not the dominant Anglo-Saxon country any more. Pre fall of British Empire many would have identified as English/British.
“The Republic of India” is still the biggest of the Indian countries just like the PRC is the biggest of the Chinese countries (Singapore, Taiwan etc).
You can identify with what you want – it won’t change reality.
There is a reason people see you as Indian which irritates you as you have admitted many times before.
Nah I disagree. Punjabi and Sindhi are their own respective ethnic groups, they fall within the Indic/Indo-Aryan linguistic group but that itself is not an ethnic classification, otherwise going off of that definition there are only 6-7 ethnic groups in Europe cause then it’s just Celts, Germanics, Latins, Slavs, and so on. Indians are citizens of India regardless of their ethnic origin and it just so happens majority of them are Indo-Aryan but a significant minority are Dravidian among other ethno-linguistic groups.
Both Punjabi and Sindhi are also broad ethnic groups in their own right and may even be considered ethno-linguistic groups as every tribe, clan, and biraderi has their own origins so a Punjabi of Pashtun descent like Imran Khan and a Sindhi of Baloch descent like Sanam Baloch are both equally Punjabi and Sindhi even if they don’t belong to a biraderi that didn’t speak an Indo-Aryan language until a few generations ago.
Pakistanis are Pakistanis and that’s it. It’d be nice if our neighbors east of the Radcliffe and west of Durand accepted this but most importantly it’s the Pakistani left accepted this because they’ve been the most guilty of muddying the waters.
“Pakistanis are Pakistanis and that’s it”– Once again, I must disagree with you–with all the respect due to a compatriot.
Post 1971 and the loss of East Pakistan, the Pakistani state doubled down on this notion that we are all “Pakistani and that’s it”. That’s what “Pak Studies” is about.
However, that kind of top down indoctrination cannot change people’s feelings of belonging to the Punjabi, Pashtun, Baloch or Sindhi ethnic groups.
It would be much healthier if we accepted that Pakistan is a multiethnic (though NOT “multinational” country).
I never denied the ethnic diversity and provincial/subnational identities within Pakistan, if anything you’re doing exactly that by saying that Punjabis and Sindhis aren’t their own ethnic but merely just ethnic Indians. I refuse to buy into that framing.
I didn’t say Punjabis are “merely just ethnic Indians”.
Punjabis are an ethnic group that straddle national borders.
Punjabis and Sindhis are subset of “Indians”.
Pakistanis are trying to create a new “nationality” but you can’t change facts.
You can’t change that you are “Indian”, El Khwapoor.
BB, please calm down.
I stated that I agree with you rather than with my fellow Pakistani.
Take the win.
and you’re a Dravidian with an inferiority complex as most are from my observation.
I literally am not Dravidian.
Why would Dravidians, the richest/most successful ethnicities in the Indian subcontinent be jealous of Sub-Saharan African tier Pakistanis, the poorest in the subcontinent?
And you seem to have an ax to grind with Dravidians judging from your comments.
Telugu bosses in the USA making you watch too many NTR movies?
Go reply to your slack and dance to Butta Bomma. Else your appraisal will be affected.
You’re literally south indian and talk about their movies and culture all the time but now you want to deny it out of shame.
Sachar committee report was from 2006.
It’s been 20 years since.
While Indian Muslims still are probably below the INDIAN average, considering the Indian average is so much higher than Pakistan NOW (0.685 HDI vs 0.544 HDI in 2023) Indian Muslims must have better quality of lives than Pakistani Muslims.
And I disagree with the fact that the Indian Muslim is not sovereign. They have the EXACT same rights as the Indian Hindu (or Christian or Sikh) and occupy positions of power throughout India.
The correct comparison would be African Americans vs say African Nigerians.
African Americans face systemic discrimination (more than Indian Muslims I would say as they never were part of the ruling class so don’t even have the legacy effect of that unlike Indian nawabs etc) but legally are equal to the other races. Because they are a minority they don’t have total control of the country.
Africans in Nigeria do have total control of their country but it is very poor.
Of course India-Pak gap is not USA-Nigeria level but considering the trajectories it will definitely be USA-Mexico level in 25-30 years.
Do Pakistani Muslims really have sovereignty though?
Unlike Indian Muslims, they can’t even vote their own leaders.
A small sliver of Pakistani Muslims in the fauj maybe but the vast majority of Pakistani Muslims have no sovereignty and are basically “colonized” for lack of a better word.
While the Pakistani elite play “global peacemaker” the Pakistani awaam including in the capital and biggest cities are going through 5-6 hours of “load shedding” in the year 2026.
Wow!
Yet another anti-Pakistan statement.
Elections are held in Pakistan. Fine, those elections are “managed” to an extent. Pakistan is a “hybrid regime”.
@X.T.M: Why is this guy replying to my comments?
I’m not going to let you spew anti-Pakistan venom.
I will take this issue up with XTM.
“Chinese” can mean two things – Citizens of the PRC as well as the larger ethnically “Chinese” – who are also found in Singapore, Hong Kong, Malaysia, the West etc.
Similarly “Indian” can mean two things – Citizens of the ROI as well as the ethnicity. Bangladesh and the Indic part of Pakistan are very much “Indian”.