Part 1: Who Can Speak for the Muslims of India
Part 2
BB has made a comment calling Pakistanis “strayed Muslim Indians“; which does not quite make sense, because Pakistanis are both Indic & Islamic, uniquely so. One cannot deny the highly syncretic and distinct Muslim subculture that has come about from a very long and deep history in India. It cannot be subsumed into an Indian identity in any meaningful way without acknowledging that distinctiveness.
But the phrasing opens a useful equation.
Pakistanis = Indian Muslims with sovereignty.
The real question is the one General Zia is said to have answered: what is the price of sovereignty? Zia’s answer was that you cannot put a price on freedom. The nuclear option is the load bearing wall of that claim. No one messes with Pakistan the way they have messed with Iran, or Iraq, or Libya. That is what sovereignty bought.
Partition has been very good for the Hindus. Two-thirds of the pre-1947 Indian Muslim population received sovereignty; first Pakistanis, then Bangladeshis on their own terms. The middle third did not. And this is exemplified most sharply by the Kashmiri scenario: a Kashmiri Muslim in Pakistan is sovereign but poor; a Kashmiri Muslim in India is subordinated but rising. Indian capital now pours into the Valley at a rate no Pakistani budget could match. The Indian Muslim can never really have sovereignty, because that is exactly what Jinnah and Nehru agreed against in Gandhi’s conception; Hindus and Muslims would otherwise have been constantly struggling and catalysing each other’s sovereignties, the way Israelis and Palestinians now do.
And Hindus, too, have been acquiring sovereignty as a political concept, despite being 80 per cent of the largest population on earth. There is a distinct demographic anxiety at work, not unlike Israeli Jews who are 80 per cent of their country yet surrounded by predominantly Muslim states. The historical memory is real: previously Hindu-Buddhic societies like Indonesia and Malaysia became Muslim societies. The Malays as a race went from Hindu to Muslim. That is what was lost to Dharma.
Sovereignty, freedom, self-awareness: these are not abstract. For decades the Israelis had far greater sovereignty than any of their neighbours (or rather Asabiyyah), and then all of a sudden Palestinian sovereignty began to furiously emerge too. Sovereignty is not static. It is catalysed.
So what did Pakistani sovereignty cost? It cost the civilisational continuity that Indian Muslims retained by staying. It cost eighty years of HDI that Gangetic Muslims accumulated under a Hindu majority. The Sachar Committee numbers do not flatter India. The HDI numbers do not flatter Pakistan.
What it bought was the one thing Indian Muslims will never have: the right not to be governed by someone else’s majority.
Whether that trade was worth it is the endlessly debated question that Partition has left behind.
Your mention of Palestine doesn’t make sense.
Palestine–the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem– is internationally considered Occupied Territory.
Indian Muslims are Indian citizens. Even Kashmiris are Indian citizens (whether willingly or not).
The comparison of Hindus to Israeli Jews is not flattering to Hindus. Israeli Jews have been subjugating Palestinians since the Nakba.
Azad Essa has written an entire book on the alliance between India and Israel.
As for the larger point: As a Pakistani nationalist, I do believe the fact that 250 million Pakistanis rule ourselves as opposed to being minorities in a Hindu-majority nation is worth the sacrifices of Partition.
A man who owns his own shack is better than the slave who serves in a mansion.
This is the dilemma facing Muslims of Kashmir. Infact this is also the dilemma facing Muslims in the MiddleEast (wrt to Israel, USA). The Arabs chose slavery, while Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Turkey chose freedom. It’s clear where the heart of ‘Islamic civilization’ is now.
Do the Pakistanis ‘own their shack’ though, is the question to be asked. From Yahya to Zia to Musharraf to Munir, Pakistan’s ‘shack’ has been owned in a manner that …arguably does not quite fit the definition of ‘sovereignty’.
If you can defend your land, you own your land. Its as simple as that. People make it seem complicated because they dont want to accept reality.
RNJ likes playing these semantic games.
Sovereignty is very clearly defined in the English language.
Pakistan is a sovereign and nuclear-armed Muslim nation. We are not subject to the rule of a Hindu-majority.
No amount of “slavery of the Awaam” and anti Pak-Fauj talking points will change that reality.
But Pakistan can’t. They lost half of it in 1971.
And many areas of Balochistan/KPK are no go areas.
The Peshawar and Quetta PSL teams have played no games in Peshawar and Quetta ever.
Pakistan is a nuclear weapon state. It wasn’t one in 1971.
@XTM: BB is up to his old tricks. This constant spewing of anti-Pakistan animus is getting ridiculous.
Once again, you can “participate”. You cannot spew anti-Pakistan hatred.
“They lost half of it in 1971” is a gratuitous and triggering comment.
I’m going to go back to ignoring you now. But I am warning you that I am watching and if you step out of line, you will be reported to XTM.
Just answer the simple question:
Were you or were you not told that this is your “probationary period” and you are not to criticize Pakistan or Islam?
I’ve seen the emails so denials are not going to help your case.
@XTM:
Did you or did you not tell BB that he was to “lay off” Pakistan and Islam during the “probationary period”?
The “probationary period” cannot end after barely 24-48 hours.
The constant spewing of anti-Pakistan venom is not a good look for a site that claims to be an intellectual forum.
His comments should be kept up. I like to treat hateful comments from across the border as a time capsule and fuel for my own worldviews.
There are some things that cross red lines.
If BP is meant to be an intellectual forum it cannot just be Indians and Pakistanis spewing invective at each other.
Sneaking in Pakistan into “Islamic civilization” lol.
Turkey – Ottoman Empire
Iran – Safavid Empire
Afghanistan – Durrani Empire
What is the largest empire by Pakistani Muslims? Maula Jutt’s village?
The largest Punjabi empire was a non Muslim one – the Sikh empire
And no kanging over Mughals will make Punjabis, Sindhis etc Mughal.
There are more descendants of the Mughals in the Samajwadi party than in Pakistan.
And almost all Pakistanis will never set foot in the Taj Mahal.
What then is the definition of ‘sovereignty’ ? And is it fair to say that Bangladesh has it, but West Pakistan does not?
It’s not a contest, both are sovereign countries but Bangladesh has less geopolitical space to be one as its surrounded from all 4 sides from a much larger and geopolitically ambitious neighbor so that to a large extent limits and dampens their sovereignty.
Even Pakistan is surrounded on their “main side” by that neighbour and unlike Bangladesh is surrounded on the “second main side” by a bunch of Islamic yahoos.
So much sovereignty over KPK and Balochistan that Pakistan is scared to play cricket matches there.
@XTM;
You had told BB to lay off Pakistan and Islam during his “probationary period”.
He’s not keeping to his side of the bargain.
@XTM: Why is @Kabir replying to my comment?
The agreement was no interaction on Kabir’s posts and comments and vice versa.
This entire post is about a statement I made so to expect me not to participate in it is foolish.
You were explictly told to “lay off Pakistan and Islam”.
If you’re so big on sticking to letters of “agreements”, please recall that that was part of it.
I have no problem with you “participating”. Spewing anti-Pakistan hatred is not on.
“Pakistan is sacred to play cricket matches there” is not a FACT but an OPINION.
Don’t play this game with me. Your anti-Pakistan animus is obvious to everyone.
I’ve seen the emails from XTM telling you that you cannot comment on Pakistan and Islam during your probationary period.
Really? The “probationary period” lasted 24 hours?
Let’s let @XTM take the final call on this.
Watch who you call “dumb”.
Pakistanis are just Pakistanis, we don’t need any further definitions. Pakistanis are not “Muslim Indians that strayed” no more than Ukranians are Russians that strayed or Venezuelans are Colombians that strayed or Californians are Mexicans that strayed or the Belgians are Dutch that strayed, so on and so forth.
Regarding the “development” in Kashmir, I’d recommend speaking to Kashmiris from the valley to hear about the reality of those developments, from what I’ve heard from regular Kashmiris is that they’re not seeing any of the benefits of those programs. Life is still very hard for them, even getting a passport or unrestricted internet access is extremely difficult if not nearly impossible.
I disagree with you slightly. Pakistanis are “Muslim Indians” in the sense that Punjabis and Sindhis are ethnically “Indian”. Obviously, we’re not Indian in the sense of the nation-state.
Agree on Kashmir. There are still hundreds of thousands of Indian troops in the Valley. Many Kashmiri Muslims will tell you that they are a people under Occupation (obviously not all of them feel that way).
I vote that you become an author here. There needs to be more Pakistani representation to push back against the obnoxious levels of Indian (and “soft Hindutva”) nationalism.
No, Punjabis and Sindhis have nothing to do with India.
With all due respect to a fellow compatriot, this is a ridiculous statement.
My nana’s family was from Amritsar. And we are just one family. There are plenty of Punjabis in Pakistan with roots in Ludhiana, Jalandar, etc.
Punjabis on both sides of the Radcliffe Line are ethnically the same. We just happen to be Muslim while the ones on the other side are Hindu or Sikh.
Yeah and that just makes you Punjabi by ethnicity, not Indian otherwise you’re insinuating non-Indo Aryans can’t be Indians and there goes the entire southern Indian botfarm/online narrative control operatio – all of their works are for nothing then lmao..
With all due respect, there is a difference between being “Indian” ethnically and a citizen of the Indian nation-state.
That’s my limited point.
Two of my four grandparents were from what is today India. Whatever I feel about the Republic of India, I’m not going to deny that history.
My father loves Agra. When he made a group to connect all his far flung relatives it was called “AgraNET”.
Indian is not an ethnicity, it’s a multi-ethnic country. Even countries as small as Sri Lanka and Nepal are multi-ethnic. Indian is only an ethnicity to ignorant non-south Asians who think all Brown people are the same and you’re playing into that.
“Indian” is not an ethnicity. It’s a nationality.
But Punjabi, Sindhi etc are very much ethnicities.
Anyway, we can agree to disagree. I’m obviously further to the left than you when it comes to the Pakistani spectrum.
Yes and no one is disputing that, I’m disputing you classifying them as “ethnic Indians” and your usage of the term Indian as an ethnicity. This is not an “agree to disagree” thing, you can’t do that over a widely accepted fact – Punjabis and Sindhis and every single Indo-Aryan ethnic group in Pakistan is their own ethnic group, not just mere “ethnic Indians”. As a leftist would you say Danes are just ethnic Germans? Would you say Kurds are just ethnic Iranians? Are Spaniards just ethnic Latins? Even the leftists in each of those countries would never accept just a broad categorization of their identity, left-right thing unless by left you mean you’re so far to the left that you support some post-national deracinated humanist one world government type of order where ethnic groups don’t exist, thus the attempts to debase Pakistan’s identity and ethnic groups.
Anyways don’t mean to come off as hostile, just mildly annoyed.
No one loves Pakistan more than me. I think my record on this site proves that.
I am center-left. I support Pakistan Muslim League–Nawaz. Many of my maternal relatives served in Pak Fauj, some in quite senior positions.
I am obviously against attempts to “debase Pakistan’s identity”.
But I do disagree with you on this particular thing. Punjabis are a transnational ethnic group. The Radcliffe Line is a man-made border. It doesn’t change my genetics or my culture.
I don’t think we need to become the mirror image of the “soft Hindutvadis” on here. We can be rational people who admit that the nation-state of Pakistan only dates from 1947. Before that we were all subjects of BRITISH India.
This doesn’t undermine our nationhood.
Anyway, I think I’ve said enough on this topic.
There is no such thing as ”Indic” in history so labelling Punjabis or Sindhis as Indic to associate them with the modern nation of India is simply a Indian right wing narrative that seeks to claim these territories and the history of these people as their own to kang on.
We don’t believe in any Indic conception. Punjabis have little in common with Sindhis let alone they would find something more in common with Indians 2000 miles away.
I’m certainly not part of the Indian Right Wing.
I’m a patriotic Pakistani. My maternal relatives have served in Pak Fauj–some in senior positions.
But you honestly sound like the mirror image of BB right now.
Punjabis are an ethnic group that is divided into two by the Radcliffe Line. We are ethnically the same people except that West Punjabis tend to be Muslim while East Punjabis tend to Hindu/Sikh.
Punjabi as an identity long precedes Pakistan (as well as India).
Like I said, my grandfather was from Amritsar. So two generations ago, my ancestors were living in what is today “India”.
Here is the rare instance where I actually agree with you (to an extent).
It is quite ridiculous of Q to say that Punjabis have nothing to do with India.
Punjabis on both sides of the Radcliffe Line are ethnically the same.
I will be singing bhajans and shabads at a Vaisakhi event in Lahore this afternoon.
Basant is a Punjabi festival, no one denies that. If according to you Punjabis, Sindhis and Muhajirs are the “Indianest of Indians” therefore they’re the benchmark – the definition of being Indian, which would mean Dravidian south Indians are not Indian at all. However that’s not how the world works in this Westphalian nation-state world order.
Agreed.
He’s not “Indian” by ethnicity.
He’s Pakistani-American (just as I am).
This is getting a bit ridiculous.
In Pakistan it is a Punjabi festival, well specifcally a kite-flying festival that’s held during BBQ season in Pakistan. It’s just a time to have a good time with family and friends, although it was dormant for 20 years and just revived. Pakistanis, more specifically central Punjabis celebrate it as a cultural festival with no religious connotations. It’s like an atheist from the former the former Eastern bloc celebrating Christmas or an American kid celebrating Halloween (Derived from the Celtic Samhain.
Notice how you say Anglo-saxons and not English/British because you know for a fact that most Americans, Canadians, Aussies and Kiwis do not identify as British and especially not Americans, people here would hate to be called English. Most Anglo-Americans started listing their ethnicity as “American” once it was added as a category on the census.
I’m a Pakistani-American by ethnicity and will never identify as indian.
And India is not the dominant Muslim country, so most Pakistanis will never identify with it. The Chinese analog doesn’t work because Singaporean-Chinese and Taiwanese are mostly Han Chinese. Most Pakistanis are neither from the ganges nor the dravidian south.
People don’t see me as Indian here, people see you as an individual in America
India is not a “MUSLIM power. It’s a Hindu majority country.
Since you’re so interested in FACTS: Pakistan is the world’s second-largest Muslim majority nation-state.
“No Islamic legacy”? — May I remind you of the Badshahi Mosque, Wazir Khan Mosque etc
Pakistan is the only Muslim-majority state which is a nuclear power.
Your anti-Pakistan animus is beyond ridiculous.
A plurality of Pakistanis are Punjabi but the center of Punjabi culture isn’t a specific region, there are several centers depending on dialect group and biraderi – west Punjab is the cultural center for Pakistani Punjabis and Punjabi Muslim culture.
India is only 14% Muslim, it’s far from a “dominant Muslim country”. India isn’t even allowed to join the OIC and no Muslim country sees India as a Muslim country, if anything its seen as an adversary of Muslims thus the negative reporting of India on Al Jazeera and TRT. It’s also why India is not a player in this middle east war nor part of the process.
Urdu predates the creation of “UP”. Most Americans speak a language from England and Mexicans speak a language from Spain but I only ever see Indians harp on about Urdu is from India yet at the same time hate on it as a Muslim language, refer to Bollywood as Urduwood and reclassify older songs purely written in Urdu as “Hindi” and to add insult to injury, most Indians can’t even read or write Urdu.
India is not the Muslim power of the subcontinent, it’s a Hindu rashtra as most Indians define it, it’s a a “Hindu civilizaztion” as you guys like to kang on about repeatedly. Not only is India not a Muslim power, it’s increasingly being seen as an adversary by the Muslim world. Heck, just go to the only Muslim majority territory in India and see what they say about India.
Just one quibble: India is not a “Hindu Rashtra”. It’s a constitutionally secular state.
It may well become a Hindu Rashtra at some point but it isn’t one yet.
Urdu is an Indian language. But it’s also the national language of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.
I don’t think we need to distort History in order to counter BB and RNJ.
The Christmas example works best for western atheists, they don’t care about the religious background of the festival, it’s just baked into their culture. I do think the best analog to basant in the west is Halloween – An American or Canadian kid regardless of their ethnic heritage, celebrates it and doesn’t care about its origins in pre-Christian Celtic folk religion. You can’t tell Pakistanis why they celebrate something and what they should or shouldn’t care about.
Except most of halloween traditions are originating from christian celebrations in the middle ages.
Agreed.
This tendency of BB’s and RNJ’s to deny the separate identity of Pakistanis is very off putting.
“Indian” is a nationality. Pakistanis are not Indian. We don’t hold Indian passports.
My relatives in Agra are Indian.
You need to stop conflating me with BB, and falsely attributing his views to me.
?
Where did we do that?
Not you, Kabir.
He’s even making posts related to comments made supposedly by me – and on his ‘thread’ I am not even allowed to respond via comments. Which is…….ridiculously illiberal, to say the least.
That’s not acceptable- he can’t refer to you and the not allow you the right of reply.
Sorry about that.
We’ll investigate.
RNJ made a comment about Pakistani TV banning commemoration of Asha ji’s death. I referred to that in “Overzealous PEMRA”.
I will not refer to him in future. But I will not allow his nasty anti-Pakistan comments on my threads. This is a red line.
that’s perfectly fine; our Moderation efforts are getting stressed at the moment.
We expect more from our Regulars. We’ve been more than lenient this weekend but going forward we will go back to arbitrary mass deletions and revocation of Author.
People can’t go on flouting the rules; it makes a mockery of the process.
Thank you.
If someone makes a publicly available comment surely there is no cause for complaint if I refer to it in a post.
The only reason I have “banned” RNJ from my posts is that he takes a very nasty tone about me and my country. If he were to stop doing that, I have no problem letting him make constructive comments.
if you have banned him from your threads, you cannot then refer to him in your threads.
what is good for the goose is good for the gander.
It was a publicly available comment.
But I don’t want to litigate this.
As I said, if he revises his tone with me, I’m prepared to reconsider my policy.
But I will not allow nastiness towards me or my country. That includes passive aggression.
Nah I disagree. Punjabi and Sindhi are their own respective ethnic groups, they fall within the Indic/Indo-Aryan linguistic group but that itself is not an ethnic classification, otherwise going off of that definition there are only 6-7 ethnic groups in Europe cause then it’s just Celts, Germanics, Latins, Slavs, and so on. Indians are citizens of India regardless of their ethnic origin and it just so happens majority of them are Indo-Aryan but a significant minority are Dravidian among other ethno-linguistic groups.
Both Punjabi and Sindhi are also broad ethnic groups in their own right and may even be considered ethno-linguistic groups as every tribe, clan, and biraderi has their own origins so a Punjabi of Pashtun descent like Imran Khan and a Sindhi of Baloch descent like Sanam Baloch are both equally Punjabi and Sindhi even if they don’t belong to a biraderi that didn’t speak an Indo-Aryan language until a few generations ago.
Pakistanis are Pakistanis and that’s it. It’d be nice if our neighbors east of the Radcliffe and west of Durand accepted this but most importantly it’s the Pakistani left accepted this because they’ve been the most guilty of muddying the waters.
“Pakistanis are Pakistanis and that’s it”– Once again, I must disagree with you–with all the respect due to a compatriot.
Post 1971 and the loss of East Pakistan, the Pakistani state doubled down on this notion that we are all “Pakistani and that’s it”. That’s what “Pak Studies” is about.
However, that kind of top down indoctrination cannot change people’s feelings of belonging to the Punjabi, Pashtun, Baloch or Sindhi ethnic groups.
It would be much healthier if we accepted that Pakistan is a multiethnic (though NOT “multinational” country).
I never denied the ethnic diversity and provincial/subnational identities within Pakistan, if anything you’re doing exactly that by saying that Punjabis and Sindhis aren’t their own ethnic but merely just ethnic Indians. I refuse to buy into that framing.
I didn’t say Punjabis are “merely just ethnic Indians”.
Punjabis are an ethnic group that straddle national borders.
BB, please calm down.
I stated that I agree with you rather than with my fellow Pakistani.
Take the win.
Getting personal with El Khawaja is not a good look.
@XTM:
BB is getting personal with El Khawaja.
“launda naach mujras”– This is blatant homophobia.
This comment must be removed. Homophobia crosses red lines.
People belong to Punjabi/Sindhi/Baloch ethnic groups.
But they wouldn’t even know about this ”indic or iranic’ classficiation, which seems to be pretty top down. It’s a linguistic classification based on the language tree and does not denote ethnicity.
The average Muslim Gujjar in Peshawar that you would classify as Indic has much more in common with his Pakthun neighbour than he does with any regional ethnic group in India.
a Kashmiri Muslim in Pakistan is sovereign but poor – how? The so called Azad Jammu and Kashmir does not even issue its own passport. The people there travel on Pakistani passport. It is a colony of Pakistan. Pakistan does not want to integrate them into the “muslim sovereignty” rubric of Pakistan because they want to keep the dispute alive. They also don’t want to make them fully independent. So no, Kashmiri Muslim in Pakistan is not sovereign.
You do realize the PM of Pakistan is Kashmiri-Punjabi? The Chief Minister of Punjab is Kashmiri-Punjabi?
AJK and GB are self governing territories. They have not been “integrated” into Pakistan because that would prejudice the final solution of the Kashmir Dispute.
That’s the legal position.
A lot of people in AJK identify with Pakistan, having a Pakistani passport for many is a sign of sovereignty especially in contrast with those under occupation by India. Kashmiri and Pahari Muslims are certainly sovereign in Pakistan.
Agreed. My uncle (Phuppa) is from Muzaffarabad.
The people of GB rebelled against the Dogra in 1947. They have wanted nothing more ever since than to join Pakistan.
Unfortunately, we have not made GB a full province since our legal opinion is that that would prejudice the solution to the Kashmir Dispute
that’s just absurd lol we will allow it as this is a Precedent thread.
also there is no need to continue the exchange; you are still on Probation.
it is alot of work having to remove comments
Me stating the fact or those scores?
We are now removing your last 40 comments after you have written:
“Shitty Pakistanis with no movie industry and nothing to kang on are irrelevant.
Pakistan’s most famous movie internationally is Joyland, about launda naach (something I agree is fundamentally Pakistani).”
This is racist and homophobic. El Khwaja is a new commentator, you know better. You emailed us last night to try and pre-empt moderation but this is very very insulting.
Me or BB?
This was a reply to BB
Kashmiri Muslim in India is not sovereign, sure. But so isn’t the Kayasth or the Jatt or the Reddy. No single group of people in India is sovereign. Every adult has political agency though – their vote. That vote determines their representatives who eventually go on to decide the cabinet at state and central level and also CM and PM.
Calvin is clearly left-wing.
Not part of your “tribe”.
Exactly, pretending that Pakistani citizens have sovereignty in 2026 is ….quite the stretch.
Its illuminating how even almost 80 years after partition, the simple chooran of ‘avoiding Hindoooo domination’ allows Pakistani elites to mask the near-total lack of sovereignty that Pakistanis have to simply accept as their fate.
Sachar committee report was from 2006.
It’s been 20 years since.
While Indian Muslims still are probably below the INDIAN average, considering the Indian average is so much higher than Pakistan NOW (0.685 HDI vs 0.544 HDI in 2023) Indian Muslims must have better quality of lives than Pakistani Muslims.
And I disagree with the fact that the Indian Muslim is not sovereign. They have the EXACT same rights as the Indian Hindu (or Christian or Sikh) and occupy positions of power throughout India.
The correct comparison would be African Americans vs say African Nigerians.
African Americans face systemic discrimination (more than Indian Muslims I would say as they never were part of the ruling class so don’t even have the legacy effect of that unlike Indian nawabs etc) but legally are equal to the other races. Because they are a minority they don’t have total control of the country.
Africans in Nigeria do have total control of their country but it is very poor.
Of course India-Pak gap is not USA-Nigeria level but considering the trajectories it will definitely be USA-Mexico level in 25-30 years.
Wow!
Yet another anti-Pakistan statement.
Elections are held in Pakistan. Fine, those elections are “managed” to an extent. Pakistan is a “hybrid regime”.
I’m not going to let you spew anti-Pakistan venom.
I will take this issue up with XTM.
“Indian” is NOT an ethnicity. It’s a nationality.
You’re confused by your own definitions now. Earlier you said being Indian was like being European, now you’re saying Indians are like the French (an ethnicity). Your post perfectly encapsulates the confusion and ignorance rife among Indian nationalists.
“French” is not an ethnicity. It’s a nationality.
“Indian” and “Pakistani” are both nationalities not ethnicities.
Words have clear meanings in English.
French is kinda both because the Franks were an ethnicity and the French language is an actual language sort of like Sindhi and Pashto are.
@XTM:
Homophobia is a red line.
This guy needs to be banned from this site.
At the very least, he must be removed as an author.
Homophobia is absolutely not on.
OK, this is racism.
BB is a troll. But you don’t need to take these kinds of jibes at South Indians.
@XTM:
“Subhuman” crosses yet another red line.
We went through this a few months ago (I think November) when Sbarrkum was called “subhuman”.
BB really needs to learn the etiquette of civilized debate.
Kabir is erm Pakistani?
The comment was in reply to a now deleted comment from BB. WordPress does this weird thing where it then changes the reply to someone else.
Ohh
Technically nor is Chinese. Most Singaporean Chinese are Hokkien from Southern China. There is significant diversity within Chinese peoples. It is another matter that the Chinese project of Sinicizing all their diverse groups has been incredibly successful. It won’t be long before people outside PRC will call Uyghurs Chinese as well.
I dont think ethnicity covers it that well, culture is a better fit. Given that most of the culture of modern west punjab and Sindh was made euth interactions with and taking ideas from other cultures in modern day India.
There is also this precedent;
https://www.brownpundits.com/2026/03/18/open-thread-arnab-goswami-grills-israeli-ambassador-on-minab/
You can’t pick and choose.
Civilization =/= ethnicity
Western civilization is also one of many recognized civilizations in the world but it would be asinine to refer to “western” as an ethnicity.
That definition only applies ethnic Han Chinese who settled in southeast Asia. Indian is not an ethnicity the way Chinese. Your attempts of trying to shoehorn that definition would be as illogical as a Chinese person referring to ethnic Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Uighurs, Tibetans and Mongolians living outside of China as “ethnic Chinese” just because they contain significant numbers of those ethnic groups and parts (and in some cases most) of their native territory.
Pakistanis are Pakistanis. Indians are Indians. Deal with it.
I have no interest with what Pakistanis want. They are irrelevant. But facts remain facts.
And it is funny about Pakistanis referring to some non existent “self hate” among Dravidians.
Dravidians speak their language, watch their movies, identify as themselves.
Pakistanis speak an Indian language, watch Indian movies and change identities every month (Arab/Persian/Afghan/Turk/Indian) lol.
It is you who has the self hate, El Khwapoor. 😂
Admin Note: Kabir, you know very well, “Gajal” is dog whistling.
>Indians are very fond of “gajals” (they can’t even pronounce the word “Ghazal” correctly).
This is a sweeping generalization dripping with condescension and bigotry.
@XTM
Gajal is dog whistling – we’ll edit when we have a chance.
I apologize.
BB had a complete meltdown. If I make one snarky comment, surely this can be understood in context.
Admin Addendum: Kabir, you know the rules, and that you should refer inappropriate comments to Admin rather than respond in kind with racist dog whistling.
Even in the South Asian context, Ghazals are Indian and not native to Pakistan.
The Indo-Islamic culture that Pakistanis claim including the language Urdu are all Indian, originating in the Ganga-Yamuna belt.
Don’t tell me about Ghazals.
You are factually wrong (you love “facts” so much). The ghazal originated in Arabic poetry, then became a genre of Persian poetry and finally a genre of Urdu poetry.
The “Gh” sound in Ghazal doesn’t even exist in Hindi. So that’s an indication.
@ XTM:
BB has now crossed too many red lines.
“eternal beggars”, “launda naach”
This comment is dripping with homophobia.
I have no interest in his sexual proclivities.
My simple question: Is homophobia acceptable on BP?
I have nothing against the movie “Joyland”.
But any neutral party knows your record on this site when it comes to homophobia.
May I remind you that “hijras” are a reality in India as well.
we are working through stuff. Yes BB loves these low-brow insults for some reason
A lot of men resort to homophobia as a first line of attack.
It really says more about their own psyche than about the person they are attempting to insult.
It’s very middle school.
@XTM:
References to Guantanamo are a red-line. This is textbook Islamophobia.
BB has not learned any lessons from his suspension.
we are just deleting them; we woke up to 100+ comments, most of them trash it seems.
Thanks.
Yes, BB had a meltdown.
I recall you telling him to lay off of both Pakistan and Islam while on probation.
He can’t help himself.
This was actually funny.
But please don’t become as hateful as BB..
Admin Note: Qureshi don’t use Saar again otherwise we will delete your last twenty comments. It is racist dogwhistlining
And here we go with “70 cc bikes”– Yet another anti-Pakistan trope.
Remember that people like me have had chauffeurs for a hundred years.