Today will be a bit busy so I haven’t had time to attend to BP (running on 4-5hours sleep).
Talk about whatever you like; I’ll make this thread sticky a while. A good & engaged commentariat is the lifeblood of a platform.
I’m working on something that will be a bit interesting (my newsletter meets my work) but let’s hear from you w.r.t the wacky and the wonderful.
“Supreme Court Has Let Down the Constitution in J&K Case, Says Former Home Secretary”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4kVY3VB8WM
This is deeply tragic. Honor killings remain a real problem in Pakistan. As far as I am aware, the Balochistan Government has made some arrests.
“Pakistan-India relations” by Ashraf Jehangir Qazi
https://www.dawn.com/news/1926020/pakistan-india-relations
“The writer is a former ambassador to the US, India and China, and head of UN missions in Iraq and Sudan. The article is based on a note prepared for a zoom-based India-Pakistan citizens meeting hosted by O.P. Shah, chairman, Centre for Peace and Progress, New Delhi.”
“Mohsin Alam Bhat & Harsh Mander on the threat to Muslims as a crisis for India’s democracy”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMol26m0aYw
“Pakistan and Bangladesh agree on visa-free entry for diplomats, pledge stronger security cooperation”
https://www.dawn.com/news/1926083/pakistan-and-bangladesh-agree-on-visa-free-entry-for-diplomats-pledge-stronger-security-cooperation
“When Vajpayee Chose to Fall in Line After Godhra” by Abhishek Choudhary
https://thewire.in/books/when-vajpayee-chose-to-fall-in-line-after-godhra
“India’s Foreign Policy hits RIC (Russia, India, China) Reality”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VItE4JMVpO8
XTM: This is a very important video about geopolitics and geo-economics.
“Being TRANS in the Muslim world is gender affirming: Asifa Lahore!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DD4Ukhrqmw
This has gotten ridiculous. What’s the point of just spam posting articles inclined with your viewpoint? You can always enjoy a reddit echo chamber of your choosing, why turn these open threads into one of them? Asking for a friend.
Stop being passive-aggressive.
This is the open thread. Where else is one supposed to post links to things that may be interesting?
These articles may not interest you. But you are not the only user of this site.
“Deleting Chapters, Erasing History: Why is the NCERT Making Changes in History Textbooks?”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMUz4k4p92c
Posting this primarily for XTM. Anyone who thinks this is “spam” is free to ignore. But don’t you dare tell me what I can and cannot post.
To be honest my comment was mainly targeted at N to suggest that she doesn’t give in to the temptation of balancing the site by counter spam posting. Of course it applied to you too but we’ve had our tiff about this and I typically avoid participating in repeat inanities.
While we are here, I have a genuine question for you. Normally I’m quite good at running mental tallies in my head but at this point I’ve lost count of the number of times you’ve threatened/been rude to me. There’s been a lot of don’t you dare and watch your tone and many many more, insults to education/english, intelligence, debating skills…
Just a few days ago you were waxing eloquent about how humanities teaches you to argue and debate with aplomb and without letting insults fly, all about the polish and elan which you clearly both assign weight to and consider yourself to be doing so.
How do you reconcile this in your head? It’s not as if you’ve held back on your end, you’ve so far threat/insulted everyone except x.t.m & sbarr.
Even setting aside the silliness of threatening anonymous handles in an online forum with meaningless consequences (once the censorship power was curtailed) Why do you do it? It’s bizarre, and seems completely at odds with what you repeatedly insist on. Do you just have a giant blind spot to your own behaviour or are you aware and just carry on with the hypocrisy. Not asking for a friend.
“Spam” is a subjective judgment not an objective fact. I’m not at all bothered by Nivedita posting whatever she wants on this Open Thread.
Saying “don’t you dare” is not a threat. You seem to be interpreting words extremely literally.
The way I see it, I am defending myself against attacks (both passive aggressive and aggressive aggressive). I don’t take kindly to bullies. Nor do I take kindly to disrespect.
True to form you’ve avoided my question.
How do you reconcile your rudeness with your insistence for politeness?
Do you feel you have not been rude and this is subjective judgement on my part? All our parts?
I don’t want to get into the dispiriting process of digging up all the various instances but they have been many and varied and with everyone you disagree with except X.T.M.
If you feel you’re being rude because people have ‘ganged up’ and bullied you, and you’ve been provoked into it etc, those are all understandable reasons.
Still, it is very much at odds at your insistence on polite discourse and your ‘virtuous humanities grounding’.
Anyway I don’t want to belabour this point either. You can choose to avoid it again, I will leave it alone.
I answered the question. If you don’t disrespect me I won’t disrespect you. I do not tolerate disrespect and I will never tolerate it.
Also I despise passive aggressiveness. You are not a troll but you are extremely passive aggressive.
Well that’s really an eye of the beholder problem. Even after I have clarified, you insist that it was passive aggressiveness directed at you. It wasn’t.
Anyway aside from that you have still not addressed a core hypocrisy of being rude while extolling your politeness.
Most of my criticism is really mainly about laying bare the continual ongoing hypocrisies in your behaviour. (Or exasperation at the incessant point flogging).
Going to leave it here as we aren’t making progress understanding each other. Back to disengagement.
Not solely at you anyway. Besides most of the time I take the pains to point out very specifically the hypocrisy at play.
Disrespect is inherently subjective. I clearly let people know when I feel disrespected. Trolls like Honey Singh have attacked me and my family and mocked me for being “poor”. Of course, I defended myself and clarified that my family for generations have been doctors, lawyers and civil servants. By no definition are we “poor”.
Basically, you don’t troll me and I won’t troll you. But I don’t stand for bullying. The minute someone bullies me, I can bully them right back with equal force.
As for “hypocrisy”, everyone on this blog can be accused of hypocrisy from time to time. It’s in the eye of the beholder.
I’ll give you a small example from years ago. I once referred to Lord Hanuman as a “monkey god”. XTM absolutely lost it and accused me of Hinduphobia etc. I countered by saying that Wiki referred to Hunaman ji as a “monkey god”. This is really the standard way of describing his appearance.
Yet just a bit later XTM referred to the Prophet of God as a “pedophile”. That is hypocrisy.
My principle is that people’s religious beliefs should not be disrespected.
Not what I’m talking about really but it’s clear we aren’t moving forward.
Instead I will suggest the introduction of some terms of mutual respect going forward. Lay off the belligerence and insults. I’ll keep my objections mainly to myself, but if you feel something is directed at you feel free to let me know, but with civility.
Your example sounds far more like reciprocity than hypocrisy.
Off topic:
I do think of Hanuman as a Monkey God (even though the Vanara term is subject to a lot of interpretation). Having animal gods is a very dharmic concept where there is little distinction morally between god, man and nature, all living (and divine) beings are considered to have the atma of universal consciousness. Every being is worthy of respect and worship. Elephants and Monkeys are intelligent enough for us to discern emotions and so deification of an aspect is easier.
This makes for a kinder world (in my heavily biased opinion) than say the christian view that this earth is placed here for man’s benefit and only humans have souls.
It was hypocrisy in the sense that if one is so sensitive about Hindu beliefs (which is fine) one should also respect Islamic beliefs. No Muslim (no matter how liberal) will stand for the Prophet of God being called a “pedophile”. Yet this happened on BP repeatedly and admins like Razib even defended his right to insult the Prophet. This is no way to encourage engagement from Muslim users. Thankfully, we seem to be past that now.
To give you a more recent example of the double standard at play: XTM was apparently quite upset with my simply expressing my personal literary preference for The Iliad and The Odyssey over The Ramayana. He wrote a whole post in response which essentially called the “Pakistani Mind” colonized. This is quite an over the top reaction to a remark which was by no means intended to be insulting to Hindus.
Trust me, when I deliberately intend to be insulting, it will be obvious to everyone.
I’m all for mutual respect. I will be civil to those who are civil to me. But I do not suffer bullies. Anyone who bullies me does so at their own peril and can expect to be treated in the same manner.
was my post OTT?
I think making a big deal about someone’s personal literary preferences is a bit over the top honestly.
Then you doubled down and asked me if I would say something like that about the Quran. I answered that question btw. I have no issues with someone saying they prefer The Odyssey to the Quran. It’s a literary preference and not an insult to Islam.
Also you used me to make some generalizations about the “Pakistani Mind”. I’m not grandiose enough to think that I represent the “Pakistani Mind” (whatever that is). My preferences are only my own preferences. I’m extremely Westernized (having grown up almost entirely in the West) so obviously I relate more to the Western Canon.
Lots of people are free speech absolutists (me included). I don’t feel the world is improved by needlessly hurting people, but it’s hard to gauge everyone’s offenses and too much self policing is also harmful.
I found your take on the Ramayana strange/unfamiliar. There are many many versions of the Ramayana written in multiple voices from many view points. There are even versions praising Ravana as an instrument of Karmic change. Even what is known as the Valmiki Ramayan differs quite often from the colloquial versions told in households (the Sanjeevani bit is absent). The Pakistani play mentioned they were based on the Doordarshan version (which focused almost solely on the spectacle). To say that the version you read didn’t do much for you would have been more appropriate than the generalization to the story.
It’s difficult to gauge how far removed Pakistanis are from Hindu culture, but given your take I just left it as something which is too difficult to explain given the gulf that has arisen.
I’m actually quite impressed that X.T.M gave it a try.
Btw it’s your story too. I think that’s partly what X.T.M is trying to say. Somewhere down your ancestry people would have told their children their version of the story. War, conquest, colonialism and religion have robbed you of it, but it’s quite wonderful that someone in Pakistan is performing it again.
(The best version is like home cooked food, from a parent)
I’m not a free speech absolutist. Calling the Prophet of God a “pedophile” is a red line. It’s hate speech.
All I expressed was a personal preference. I don’t care for The Ramayana. I’ve read an adaptation. The “monkey army” thing strikes me as extremely foolish (sorry to anyone who’s oversensitive about this). I’ve read the book. I’ve seen it performed in the US. One of our family friends played Sita and her daughter was in the “monkey army”.
“It’s your story too”. No it is not. It is a Hindu story. As a Pakistani Muslim, I don’t relate to it in the slightest.
That said, I’m very happy the play was performed in Pakistan. It seems to have gotten a good response. I hope they are able to bring it to Lahore though Lahore is culturally much more conservative than Karachi and it may not play that well to Punjabi Muslims.
On a lighter note, I do like the Bollywood song “Ho Ramji, teray Lakhan nay bara dukh dena” 🙂
Vanara army, not Monkey army. Vanara just means people of the forest. Contemporary versions like to represent them as monkeys. Somewhere in the retelling of Aryan deeds the forest tribes are depicted as monkeys and dehumanized until morality kicks back in and they are revered again (the kinder assumption is that they had monkey totems).
Jambavan too is a Vanara, but a bear (bear totem tribe?).
The Ramayana is not a literary achievement. It is a living story which changes with each retelling, some versions are fixed in time. Your disappointment with the versions you have experienced might arise from an antipathy towards Hinduism.
Sure it’s a Hindu story, but as someone from the subcontinent it belongs to you too. No one is asking you to give up any iota of your religious beliefs.
Like everyone else on the sub continent I’m varying degrees Aryan, Vanara and all the other tribes in the story (Rakshasa/Yaksha etc).
So maybe there is a little monkey in you too.
All I expressed was a literary preference. I didn’t relate to the story. I can’t be forced to relate to it. Nivedita has stated she doesn’t relate to the Delhi Sultanate and the Mughal Empire. That’s fine with me. Would you argue that that inability to relate arises from an “antipathy towards Muslims”? (that may well be true but that’s your implication not mine).
Non-Hindus consider The Ramayana as Literature just as non-Muslims consider The Quran as Literature.
I’m extremely Westernized. I’m moved by Helen of Troy, Agamemnon, Achilles and Patroclus in a way I’m not by Rama, Sita and Lakshman.
Aurangzeb is a much more nuanced figure than many think. A lot of academic work has been done on this. That said, you’re of course entitled to your preferences and I’m not trying to argue you out of them. Equally, I’m entitled to my views about the Hindu epics (considering them purely as Literature and not as scripture).
On Razia: NCERT has written her and Noor Jehan (Jahangir’s consort) out of the curriculum. Instead class 8 students are simply told the Mughals were “brutal”. This is a distortion of History just as “Pak Studies” is a distortion of History.
Truscke is a PhD Historian. You don’t have a PhD in History (if you do please clarify). Sorry, I will trust the person with a PhD versus a rando on the internet.
I’m not here to defend Aurangzeb Alamgir. The man killed his brothers and locked his father up in the Agra Fort. I believe he blinded his father as well. So the man was obviously not a paragon of virtue.
Calling a dynasty “brutal” is not a fact but an opinion. The distinction between fact and opinion is usually taught to children in middle school. I’m actually surprised that it’s still unclear to you.
You have amply demonstrated your bigotry on here. Your thinking that “brutality” is an objective fact rather a subjective judgement is really reflective of either a subpar education or subpar intellectual ability. I don’t really care enough about you to actually find out what it is.
I haven’t given you what for because you are a woman and I don’t abuse women ( a principle of mine). Had you been a man, I would have given you hell.
🙂 it’s a wonder your head doesn’t fall off with all the dizzying contortions and contradictions encapsulated in such a short comment.
Madam, you are a bigot. You have made your Islamophobia clear on multiple occasions.
I don’t abuse women. That’s not misogyny. Perhaps you need to study the English language. It’s my native tongue. I don’t think the same can be said for you.
You don’t know the difference between a fact and an opinion. That’s pathetic.
“symptom of deeper angst”– Unless you are a qualified psychiatrist, take your amateur diagnosis and shove it where the sun don’t shine.
The only suggestion I can make regarding our impasse that you cease addressing any comments to me and I will cease addressing comments to you.
I have no time for stupidity and Hindutva and you unfortunately are a combination of both.
Thank God I will spared your stupidity and Hindutva!
Before appealing to XTM, please recognize that you used the term “Islamofascist”. That is a vile insult and I will never forget it.
As for lack of “grey cells”, I am open about where I obtained my degrees from. You hide behind a pseudonym on the Internet.
Had you gone to Harvard or Yale surely you would have let us know that fact. My guess is you are not of the caliber to make it in those institutions.
🙂 I’ve turned it into a game of how many contradictions can we get him to make in a day.
So far by my count I think I’m up on you.
His previous comment had me worried that you might be getting ahead.
Let’s count insults too. I think you’re winning there.
Honey Singh was clearly a troll. I used to think you were a reasonable person with some horrible political views. But unfortunately I’ve been proved wrong.
It’s interesting that as the absolutist I almost never comment on anything within the religious parts of Islam and as the non absolutist you freely comment on Hinduism (including the very religious bits).
I just expressed a literary preference. I would sooner not talk about Hinduism. My battle is with Hindutva (the political ideology) and not Hinduism (the religion).
I don’t mind if you talk about Islam. I don’t mind if you criticize Islam. What I think falls into the realm of “hate speech” are nasty remarks about the Prophet of God or his wives. Hope that clarifies things.
I don’t know if you saw one of my comments on your thread (“To Free or not to Free”)? I’ve actually read The Satanic Verses. I consider it a work of Literature. Was it gratuitously offensive to name prostitutes after the wives of the Prophet of God? Absolutely. Did Rushdie deserve to die? No.
On Rushdie: Also note that Midnight’s Children (an absolute literary classic) was banned in India for insulting Indira Gandhi. If insulting Mrs. G is problematic in India how much more problematic is it to insult the Prophet of God?
I hate repeating myself but once and for all.
The Ramayana is Not a work of literature. It is a foundational story connecting us to our past. It is a living art/cultural/religious form that undergoes constant retelling, change and revision.
R.K Narayans retelling of the Ramayan is a work of literature which might not be to your taste but that’s between you and him.
I think by now it should be clear that I know what I’m talking about, if you dogmatically insist on missing this point we should just drop this discussion.
Just to illustrate the point. The Japanese have a civilizational story where a Goddess gives the Jomon emperor three treasures as symbols of his divine right to rule, a sword, a mirror and a pendant. The Japanese have various tellings of this story in poem and plays.
It isn’t really epic but it’s their foundational story. This is also religious as the Goddess is from the Shinto pantheon and Shintoism is centered around the divine nature of the Emperor.
For me to go around making comments on the nature of this story and it’s literary value just feels very disrespectful and callous.
That’s your issue. I will continue to apply the academic consensus of calling the Hindu epics works of Literature.
Are you going to fight all the world’s academics? I think not.
You really think too highly of yourself. I’m not impressed.
My poor colonized friend. This is exactly what it means. When you cannot understand your own history and heritage but have to depend on some western academic to define/translate it for you.
It’s not pomposity, it’s experience of the Ramayan, I tell it to children all the time. I use it as an example of how to remain calm and stoic like Ram in the face of the terrible ordeal of Vanavas. To remain ever dutiful as a son to a parent, irrespective of the demand.
I know what I’m talking about because while I am a steadfast atheist, I participate in the retelling of the Ramayan. This is not a POV issue, it’s an lived experience problem. You are sitting on the beach commenting on the water while I am swimming in it.
Anyway, rather foolishly I have been casting pearls before swine. Enjoy Wendy.
“Colonized”– If you think this is an insult, it isn’t. I am thoroughly Westernized (having grown up in the West). English is my native tongue.
My ancestors were doctors and lawyers even in the days of the British Raj.
Wendy Doniger has a PhD. Someone with a PhD is always more trustworthy than a rando on the Internet who doesn’t even use his real name.
That’s your POV. I’m not arguing you out of it.
But for non-Hindus, it’s a literary work period.
I may consider the Quran to be scripture. Non-muslims consider it as an example of Arabic Literature.
“I know what I’m talking about” is not an argument. It’s funny you accuse me of being pompus. Don’t ever condescend to me. I don’t take kindly to condescension.
Your tone was bigoted. I will continue to call out bigotry as and when I see it.
I don’t have an issue if you criticize Islam from a neutral and academic perspective.
“your theology”– I’m not particularly religious nor am I interested in theological discussion.
Have you actually read the Quran? If not, you really are not qualified to comment on it.
Right now I’m reading Redeeming the Kamasutra by Wendy Doniger (I know Hindutvadis hate her). I’m planning on writing about it for my Substack.
As an intellectual, I am free to write and comment on whatever I feel like. I do try to do so in a neutral and respectful manner.
yes Hinduism and Dharma is very evolved in how it looks at Nature
eeesh I’d forgotten about all that.. sorry didn’t mean to cause offence..
There was a point when you used to call the Prophet of God that on the regular. I’m glad you’ve matured.
That’s what the double standard on BP is. Things that are taken to be offensive when said about Hinduism seem to be fine to say about Islam. If Hindu sensitivities must be respected than Islamic sensitivities must be respected as well.
Also this hints at some bizarre non literal way of understanding ‘don’t you dare’. ‘Don’t you dare’ is one of the first threats of a parent to a wayward child, pretty much one of the most universal, ingrained nearly iconic language use. What’s the subtext I’m missing?
It’s a common phrase in English not a literal threat. All I meant was that you are no one to tell me what I can and cannot post.
As you yourself noted there are no real consequences to you for disrespecting me. At most, I can void your comments on my threads. Or call in the moderator if a red line has been crossed.
🙂 I habitually use a TRex skeleton as a profile picture. It’s easy to find and I find the ridiculous tiny arms juxtaposed with the menacing teeth very charming.
Indosaurus is a TRex build from the subcontinent, I thought it’s appropriate for this forum.
X.T.M stands for “Xerxes the Magian”
we need to add these links to the Open Thread; presumable all Authors can edit an Open Thread?
Shahid Nadeem, one of the country’s leading playwrights and the founder of Ajoka Theatre, described how Pakistanis have become “cultural refugees”, forced to disassociate themselves from much of their traditional culture, because it is “tainted” by association with India and Hinduism. He recalled that when he was growing up, he was told that the arts are un-Islamic and have no place in Pakistan. Through its plays, Ajoka has been striving to reclaim Pakistan’s traditional heritage. By using humor and music to keep audiences engaged, the plays address serious issues such as women’s rights and the rise of fundamentalism. Because they often deal with controversial issues, the group’s performances have at times been banned by the Pakistani government as well as received threats from religious extremists. Theater thus serves as an important platform in the fight for greater social justice and for progressive values.
https://kabiraltaf.substack.com/p/theater-as-a-matter-of-life-and-death?
LOL that was literally just published on my Substack 🙂 I had pre-scheduled it to go out at 9 AM this morning. This was an old essay written in 2014.
Shahid Nadeem’s remarks lack some nuance. To be fair, he was addressing a Western audience in DC and didn’t really have the scope to get into all Pakistan’s complications so the remarks are very much a broad brush treatment (though correct in many ways).
yes I am subscribed to your email