Reams of digital pages on this forum have been devoted to India–Pakistan relations and the broader Hindu–Muslim, or Muslim–non-Muslim, conflict. I think most of these discussions miss the crucial issue at the heart of these conflicts.
I will try to navigate to that core. This particular reflection was triggered by a news item that broke recently:
If, twelve years into the Modi government’s Hindutva agenda, a dozen educated Muslim employees can allegedly engineer a conversion racket in TCS—with all its POSH and diversity guidelines—one wonders what Muslim radicals might get away with in majority-Muslim countries.
One doesn’t need to wonder. A Dawn report from 2014 alleged that around 1,000 non-Muslim girls are forcibly converted and married off every year. Even if the number is 100, that is a huge number for 2-3% of population. The demographic change in East Bengal over the last eight decades is a testament to these currents.
The grooming gang scandal in the UK was hushed up for decades, though one might almost expect such things in a “soft,” “liberal” country like the UK. But even in so-called “saffron India,” where Muslims are supposedly under danger (as Indian left-wing media would have you believe), one finds dozens of such scandals across states. I will link just one such report:
Family of Man Killed by Girlfriend’s Family Says Killers Told Him to Accept Islam or Call Off Relationship | Swati Goel Sharma
Today, I am not in the mood to conduct a statistical analysis to separate noise from signal. However, when I did this exercise about four years ago, I came across four times as many such stories as those related to beef lynchings. Maybe some other day. These instances may well be noise—but if this is noise, then the anti-Muslim violence one hears so much about is an even lighter noise.
Has the history of past victories against idolators imbibed so much confidence in the supposedly downtrodden? I would not be surprised if this is spun as revenge against “systemic Brahmanical corporate discrimination.”
Sadly, the behavior of a significant fringe (and what exactly constitutes a fringe?) isn’t the only problem. Sexual crime is widespread in India across communities, but what is alarming is that one hardly sees any prominent Muslim voices being guilt-tripped into public shame. Just imagine the outcry—in global media as well as among Hindus themselves—if ten Hindu leaders were caught force-feeding Muslim juniors pork.
For liberal Hindus, distancing themselves from their co-religionists isn’t enough; they often go further, masochistically making mountains out of molehills. For liberal Muslims, the initial instinct is to worry about how such incidents will be used to demonize Muslims. This self-preservation instinct was also prevalent in the Valley during the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Hindus.
Take another example: our resident BP author Kabir. Many of his posts focus on rising Hindutva and abuse in India, but I don’t recall him posting about the systemic abuse of Hindu and Christian girls in Pakistan. I am not alleging that he (or others) condone these actions, but the silence itself is systemic.
While I have often argued that this conflict is only nominally historical, I am now wondering whether I was wrong about that.
A famous politician from Hyderabad once said, “Hum in Hinduón pe raaj karte the” (“We used to rule over these Hindus”), to a large, cheering audience. The Pakistan project was largely driven by a “we were rulers” mindset—but it didn’t stop there.
Why did Pakistan start four wars (or perhaps three, if we ignore 1971) with India despite the size differential? The Pakistani establishment believed it could overcome India’s numerical advantage. Does the history of Islamic victories against idolators continue to imbibe confidence among believers in the 21st century? When Jinnah called for Direct Action Day in a Hindu-majority population, was he thinking along these lines? Did the conspirators in the TCS case draw courage from historical victories such as those of Alauddin Khilji?
This may appear far-fetched to my rational mind—but perhaps those without a rational mind see it differently.
Excellent post thank you Gaurav.
Exciting stuff happening on the BP front; shall update when done.
As an aside our About Page has been updated.
Just one point (since you directly referenced me).
I have never condoned forced conversions.
I am not going to air my country’s dirty laundry in front of an audience that is mostly made up of citizens of a hostile state. That’s not the action of a patriot. So it’s an unrealistic expectation.
I have no problem criticizing Pakistan when it is warranted.
For example:
https://kabiraltaf.substack.com/p/the-assassination-of-salman-taseer
I don’t think you would condone it – i made it clear i do not think so.
But you made my point for me – You don’t want to air your dirty laundry Infront of Indians.
This strategic silence is what i call “systemic” – This airing dirty laundry argument is made at smaller levels by one side whereas large sections of other side take masochistic pleasure in airing their dirty laundry.
My point was that I don’t want to air Pakistan’s “dirty laundry” not for religious but for nationalistic/patriotic reasons.
I don’t expect Indians to openly discuss what the Indian state does in Kashmir. Arundhati Roy does so but she is obviously the exception.
Indians (including defense personnel) very openly discuss human rights violations in Kashmir and Assam and elsewhere. Its not just a niche lefty thing to do. There are long form pieces in mainstream publications referencing the cases of disappearances and custodial torture and pieces that sympathetically interview the kin of the deceased.
My point was that Indians will not air their “dirty laundry” regarding Kashmir in front of Pakistanis–citizens of a hostile state.
So Pakistanis should not be expected to air our “dirty laundry” regarding forced conversions or whatever in front of citizens of a hostile state.
Patriotism is a virtue. I, for one, will never ever defame Pakistan.
On this blog specifically, I have never seen any evidence of any interrogation about the Indian position on Kashmir. Any discussion of that results in me being called names and in Pakistan being defamed for “genocide” etc.
So your claim is not tenable–at least when it comes to the Indians on BP.
Indeed, but its nice for BP to reference the outside world. Online forums select for polemicists, not wise to ground our assumptions on them. We ended up quite reductive in characterizing each other. Both the Indian and Pakistani right wing have anxieties and motivations that haven’t been unpacked imo, as we’ve naively taken them at face value.
“Online forums select for polemicists”– Agreed. We talk past each other and are forced to articulate our state positions in public.
But my point stands. I already mentioned Arundhati Roy who very bravely says India has no business in Kashmir. She is called an “anti-national” and has had sedition cases filed against her.
Far too many Indians are OK with Kashmir effectively being a colony of India.
Kashmiri Muslims are demonized as if they are all Islamic fundamentalist terrorists.
The Hindu population keeps growing in Pakistan, both as an absolute number and as a percentage of the total. So I don’t understand why Indians keep bringing up this angle. There are a lot of girls that get kidnapped in our poor rural country of 260 million people. Entire kidnapping rackets exist in Pakistan that kidnap Muslim girls, Hindu girls, Christian girls, Shia girls, Sunni girls, just random girls. If a 1000 are Hindus (allegedly), it’s not earth shattering news.
While there is discrimination against Hindus, there is discrimination against many Muslim groups as well.
I would say Indians should be wise to look at their own country. Just recently I saw a video where a Hindu man killed an Indian Muslim man in Bihar and then beaheded his dead body in the middle of a busy street, while onlookers were just making that video chatting away. These types of videos are quite common when you go down the Indian news rabbithole. Dare I even mention the culture or kidnapping girls and doing forced marriages in North India being commonly accepted? But obviously the Indians thinking about how they are a superpower don’t concern themselves with these things, they have to look at a certain neighbouring country.
People getting murdered, lynched, their homes bulldozed, women raped.. these are a common occurence in India. But their fixation is on Muslims, not just in Pakistan but these days around the world.
“Hum in Hinduón pe raaj karte the”” is just fact, aur lagta hai abhi bhi kar rehey hain unkey dil o dimagh pe.
Indian history is rich and complex both post Islam and pre Islam, and yet it’s unfortunate that Indians (even educated ones) see it through the prism of ‘Hindu-Muslim’ and Pakistan.
to use the word that a fellow commentor often deploys, the views espoused here are ‘problematic’.
As a percentage of the total – LIE. Hindu population as a percentage has been decreasing from 1981.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism_in_Pakistan#Demographics
As an absolute number – Yes. But that is because everyone is increasing in absolute terms. Pakistan is a very poor country with Sub-Saharan Africa socioeconomic indicators like fertility rate and population growth so absolute population increasing is a given.
Pakistan’s TFR is 3.60, in the range of Rwanda, Ghana etc
It is not Indians but Pakistanis who need to come to terms with their history – that they are not Arabs, Turks, Iranians but Indians that too converted Hindus.
Pakistanis are basically the Hindus jiske upar Musalmano ne raaj kiya hazaaron saal that they like claiming.
A people without an identity will never be at peace. This is why Pakistan is in such turmoil.
And unless they make peace with the fact that they are converted Hindus and mend ties with India, their woes will continue and they will be left further behind. They were once one of the richer South Asian countries. Now India, Bangladesh, Nepal have all opened up a gap.
Currently Pakistan is undergoing horrible power cuts and load shedding due to the war. Even the main economic centres like Lahore are not spared, so I can’t even imagine the issues in rural areas.
India has surplus electricity due to depending on domestic coal (India has massive reserves) rather than imported LNG.
If Pakistan had good ties with India, they could have got that electricity to meet shortfalls like the Bangladeshis do.
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/indias-adani-boosts-electricity-supply-bangladesh-despite-souring-diplomatic-2026-01-28/
Bangladesh is a good example of what happens when you make peace with the past and pursue good ties with India. Massive economic growth for years and now a better economy and a better cricket team than Pakistan.
It is not Indians but Pakistanis who need to come to terms with their history – that they are not Arabs, Turks, Iranians
Often ignored is that Pakistanis are more Indo Aryan (more steppe) than Indians
As a percentage of the total – LIE. Hindu population as a percentage has been decreasing from 1981. Wikipedia SS attached.
As an absolute number – Yes. But that is because everyone is increasing in absolute terms. Pakistan is a very poor country with Sub-Saharan Africa socioeconomic indicators like fertility rate and population growth so absolute population increasing is a given.
Pakistan’s TFR is 3.60, in the range of Rwanda, Ghana etc
It is not Indians but Pakistanis who need to come to terms with their history – that they are not Arabs, Turks, Iranians but Indians that too converted Hindus.
Pakistanis are basically the Hindus jiske upar Musalmano ne raaj kiya hazaaron saal that they like claiming.
A people without an identity will never be at peace. This is why Pakistan is in such turmoil.
And unless they make peace with the fact that they are converted Hindus and mend ties with India, their woes will continue and they will be left further behind. They were once one of the richer South Asian countries. Now India, Bangladesh, Nepal have all opened up a gap.
Currently Pakistan is undergoing horrible power cuts and load shedding due to the war. Even the main economic centres like Lahore are not spared, so I can’t even imagine the issues in rural areas.
India has surplus electricity due to depending on domestic coal (India has massive reserves) rather than imported LNG.
If Pakistan had good ties with India, they could have got that electricity to meet shortfalls like the Bangladeshis do.
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/indias-adani-boosts-electricity-supply-bangladesh-despite-souring-diplomatic-2026-01-28/
Bangladesh is a good example of what happens when you make peace with the past and pursue good ties with India. Massive economic growth for years and now a better economy and a better cricket team than Pakistan.
You can’t even read the statistic you are citing properly and you wrote 12 paragraphs on it.
Ah yes. Got me on that one but the rest of the paragraphs are valid.
And the percentage is going up simply because Hindus there are mostly rural Sindhis. All of the middle class/urban Hindus have been driven away.
There is no Hindu equivalent of Shahrukh Khan, AR Rahman, Mohammed Siraj etc in Pakistan.
The one Hindu player Pakistan had – Kaneria left and speaks of the frequent discrimination against him.
Even Shoaib Akhtar has corroborated that on public TV.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gt64FtTA5GI
Compare to India where there are multiple non Hindu players.
Recent WC man of tournament was christian, man of match in final was sikh and there was another sikh and muslim player to boot.
one cannot now complain that Pakistan doesn’t have enough Upper Caste Hindus when its Hindu population seems to be demographically thriving..
with respect, it’s a bit churlish BB..
Point is it is easy to champion minorities when they have been defanged and have no power and are on the margins. There is no “thriving” at that point.
An increase in a few decimal points in Rural Sindh where they live in poverty and illiteracy cannot be called “thriving”.
India in reverse still has a lot of Muslims in positions of power/influence (which is what leads to conflict).
A lot of the old money Muslims (including royals) stayed back – Nizam of Hyderabad, Raja of Mahmudabad etc.
Not to deny that there isn’t Hindu-Muslim conflict in India but they arise specifically because Muslims are in number and still have power/influence in various fields (politically in certain areas/media etc).
Where is the Pakistani Hindu Rana Ayub, Arfa Khanum Sherwani, Umar Khalid etc?
Comparing to Hindus in Pakistan is a really bad faith argument.
There is bad stuff which exclusively happens in Pakistan but not India – polio, load shedding, constitutional discrimination of minorities, discrimination of minorities in the cricket, cricket tournaments being hosted without crowds to save petrol etc
And there is good stuff which exclusively happens in India but not Pakistan – space programs, sporting events like Asian Games/Commonwealth Games etc
this is high-signal but calm
// While I have often argued that this conflict is only nominally historical, I am now wondering whether I was wrong about that. //
It was historical but that’s just one aspect but most important issue has always been contemporary where Muslims must stop demanding special privileges {most Hindus have always understood this hence you see them making reform vs no reform argument esp in India’s case & celebrate even small victories like triple talaw disqualification}.
Second aspect is honestly abt. community’s internal discourse regarding non-muslims as Muslims from outside the region seem more honest abt. their beliefs instead of obfuscationary approach of subcontinental Muslims & that’s why i like perilious intimacies book as it highlights community discourse.
The point is H-M issue in subcontinent has always had both aspects but historical debates dominate the space due to scholarly weight but if one considers social media & intra-Hindu debate then i would argue that it is an equal split or maybe slightly more in favor of contemporary issues emanating from adoption of bad colonial laws {setting template for Muslims to demand special rights elsewhere}, religion & institution entanglement like govt. controlling temples while minorites have full control of their religious institutions etc.
// For liberal Hindus, distancing themselves from their co-religionists isn’t enough; they often go further, masochistically making mountains out of molehills. For liberal Muslims, the initial instinct is to worry about how such incidents will be used to demonize Muslims. This self-preservation instinct was also prevalent in the Valley during the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Hindus. //
Has been the case as observed by colonizers themselves, Churchill – While the Hindu elaborates his argument, the Moslem sharpens his sword.
Churchill referencce – https://www.ukpol.co.uk/winston-churchill-1931-duty-in-india-speech/
Not exactly sure what a domestic religious dispute in India, especially deep within southern India, has to do with Pakistan and why exactly is this being used to smear Pakistan.
Interestingly, this company (TCS) that’s at the center of this scandal is also notorious in America for being a bodyshopper and where I live there are investigations currently looking into their illegal and unethical practices.
Because it stems from the same origin – after all Pakistanis, as loathe as they are to admit it are “Muslim Indians”.
Also I have seen your antipathy towards Indian tech companies/techies. I assume it comes from a place of envy due to lack of similar success of Pakistani counterparts. You said you grew up in Pakistan so I assume in the tech scene in US, you are outnumber by Indians at a very high ratio, including superiors. So I get where your animosity comes from.
Anyways, where is the Pakistani equivalent of TCS? Or are Pakistani “techies” relegated to doing simple jobs on Fiver?
My antipathy towards Indian tech companies and h1b workers is a shared concern that most Americans have right now. It’s not due to “envy” or “success” (whatever that entails). Indians do outnumber most national origin groups, so outnumbering Pakistanis isn’t a big feat but what the Pakistani community does have going for us is that most of us are US citizens whereas the overwhelming majority of Indians are are on work visas. The main gripe we have here is the changing social fabric of our cities and neighborhoods and how our immigration system, economic and financial institutions have been gamed.
WASPs probably say the same thing about Muslims etc?
Yes, many have and do say this and unfortunately some of the biggest supporters of conservative, white supremacist anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim groups in America, have been Indians and specifically Hindus, all across the anglosphere. I hate to say and it may offend people but that’s the truth, there has been a strong alliance in the past between western based Indian Hindus and right wing anti immigrant groups just because they shared a common enemy in Muslims and when we warned them 10ish back that they will come for you guys too, we were told that nah it’s just Islam and they white supremacists accepted them. Times have changed and the pendulum has swung the other way and now the same western Indian diaspora that cheered on the election of Donald Trump and Preeti Patel and Nigel Farage and Maxime Bernier, have now turned against them because they’ve realized white supremacists don’t see them any differently. So we didn’t start this fire.
Yes, many have and do say this and unfortunately some of the biggest supporters of conservative, white supremacist anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim groups in America, have been Indians and specifically Hindus, all across the anglosphere. I hate to say and it may offend people but that’s the truth, there has been a strong alliance in the past between western based Indian Hindus and right wing anti immigrant groups just because they shared a common enemy in Muslims and when we warned them 10ish years back that they will come for you guys too, we were told that nah it’s just Islam and they white supremacists accepted them. Times have changed and the pendulum has swung the other way and now the same western Indian diaspora that cheered on the election of Donald Trump and Preeti Patel and Nigel Farage and Maxime Bernier, have now turned against them because they’ve realized white supremacists don’t see them any differently. So we didn’t start this fire.
“our” institutions. 🙂
I find the phenomenon of desi folks parroting MAGA rhetoric …interesting. So many desi uncles, Indian ones included, feel a sense of ’empowerment’ by including themselves in the “red team” tribal bandwagon. Not realizing that the “Dinesh D’souza” model is doomed.
Interestingly, this company (TCS) that’s at the center of this scandal
TCS Tata Consultancy Services
The Tata’s (Parsees) made their money by forces selling of Indian Opium in China
https://www.indiatoday.in/business/story/tata-history-from-opium-wars-to-boardroom-battles-the-making-of-an-indian-empire-2799916-2025-10-08
2014 alleged that around 1,000 non-Muslim girls are forcibly converted and married off every year.
Doesn’t this kind of stuff mostly happen in Indo Aryan (North India). Never heard of of this happening in Sri Lanka. My opinion an inherent problem of the culture of that area.
Even when a Hindu girl of her own consent marries Muslim it is portrayed as forcible conversion. Eg. The Gypsy Bangle Seller Mona Lisa marrying a Muslim
Not to condone forced conversion–which is certainly a problem in Pakistan– but if a Hindu woman marries a Muslim man even of her own will she has to convert to Islam.
Sharia does not allow a Muslim man to marry a woman who is not a “person of the book” (Christian or Jewish).
Muslim women are not allowed to marry non-Muslim men.
Hindus are considered to be idol worshipers so they are not “people of the book”.
Just to clarify before I get called an “Islamist”: I really don’t care who marries who as long as both parties consent. But Sharia is unambiguous.
> Bangle Seller Mona Lisa marrying a Muslim
Pedophilia is a serious crime in India. Is it allowed in Sri Lanka?
YYZ
The hate of Hindus to Muslims show its ugly face.
If Mona Lisa was underage the authorities should have taken action.
Mona Lisa showed her Aadhar card and she had jut turned 18
I have not mentioned any Hindu muslim angle in my comment. I was simply curious about the law in Sri Lanka.
There is an investigation open under POCSO case against the accused in this case. Please educate yourself before calling out others based on outdated facts.
Coming to Aadhar, its not a proof of birth or age. It is only an identity proof based on biometrics. All metadata other than biometric is mutable and unverified. It should not be used for address or age verification in the first place. Age can only be verified by using any of – Birth certificate, PAN card, Passport or by a court appointed Physician.
I have not mentioned any Hindu muslim angle in my comment. I was simply curious about the law in Sri Lanka.
You were replying to my comment on Mona Lisa.
So it was pretty obvious what your comment was about.
Please educate yourself before calling out others based on outdated facts.
I have been following Mona Lisa long before her marriage issues, I like to watch Gypsy dance and music being one.
Outdated ?. If their was underage marriage it would have already hit the headline. Sorry old chap your hate was showing
> replying to my comment on Mona Lisa
Yes, and how does it matter? I never said anything about Hindu-Muslim thing, much less about hating any community.
> If their was underage marriage it would have already hit the headline
I gave you benefit of doubt thinking you didn’t know about the grooming aspect of this case but the Islamist inside you can’t help but condone sexual violence against Kaffirs. Islamists like you can no longer gaslight people in the age of internet: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/new-updates/monalisas-marriage-takes-an-ugly-turn-probe-finds-kumbh-viral-girl-as-minor-fir-filed-against-husband-farman/articleshow/130165376.cms?from=mdr
And before you start you rambling about Black skin and AASI genes, its highly likely that I have more AASI than Indo European Sinhala speakers.
“the Islamist inside you”– Calling sbarrkum an “Islamist” is ridiculous. He’s not a Muslim. Anyone who is familiar with BP’s comment section would know that sbarrkum was raised Christian.
One doesn’t have to be a Muslim to be an Islamist!!
If you condone religiously ordained sexual violence against Kaffirs then you are an Islamist. Elementary.
That’s not what the word “Islamist” means. An “Islamist” is someone who advocates for a state run on Sharia. Obviously a non-Muslim would not do that. Therefore, sbarrkum is not an “Islamist”.
I’m very sorry but words have clear meanings in the English language. You cannot just decide that they mean whatever you want them to mean.
As for “Kaffirs”, this is your term not mine.
> That’s not what the word “Islamist” means
Islamism is a range of religious and political ideological movements that believe that Islam should influence political systems.
Anyone who wants Indian state to fail for whatever reason might use Islamism as a tool, ergo, an Islamist.
So much for words, meanings, English and Pakistani elites.
> As for “Kaffirs”, this is your term not mine.
I want it to be very clear that this is Muhammed’s term, not mine.
A non-Muslim cannot be an “Islamist”. Sbarrkum is definitely not an “Islamist”.
@XTM: This user is constantly making Islamophobic comments. Not a good look.
a lot of Hindus marry Christians, Jains and Sikhs and vice versa.
There is hardly any noise about those.
These things get traction due when inter faith marriage involves Islam as Muslims tend to be more intransigent viz conversion of spouse and its not unfair to say change in life is more drastic after conversion – unlike other interfaith marriages.
FYI: “Love Jihad” term was first popularized by Kerala Christians not North Indian Hindus
a lot of Hindus marry Christians, Jains and Sikhs and vice versa.
North Indian (Indo Aryan) Hindus dont marry Christians. Do you have data with reference to back your claim of “a lot”.
South Indian (Kerala and Tamil Nadu) Hindus marry Christians
FYI: “Love Jihad” term was first popularized by Kerala Christians not North Indian Hindus
Do you have reference to your claim.
What I know is the Gypsy Bangle Seller Mona Lisa went to Kerala to get married as she was being harassed by her Hindu parents and family
https://www.news18.com/movies/bollywood/monalisa-rejects-love-jihad-claims-after-marrying-farman-khan-didnt-want-to-marry-my-cousin-ws-kl-9957040.html
Bishop warns Christians in Kerala against ‘love and narcotics jihad’ – The Hindu
Kerala CM criticised for speaking out against ‘love jihad’ – Economic Times
the second one is from 2010
In Punjab there is 4-5 % Hindu Sikh Marriage – this is classified as a lot by Indian standards.
In general % ranges from 2-3% which is small in % terms but given the size the numbers are substantial.
Point being you hardly here any negative coverage of those 2-3% whereas when it involves Muslims – there is a lot more paranoia and conspiracy theories.
Hindu Jain marriages are even more common – they’re not even classified as inter faith in some quarters.
The HC order followed allegations levelled by two girls that ..
Read more at:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/6216779.cms?referral=PM&utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst
GauravL
I guess you need to reduce the number of Muslims in India (your solution)
Even the Kerala Catholics are in the plan.
Thank Goodness we in SL have a lot more tolerance as the majority are Buddhists
I think the Burmese didn’t get the Memo that they are Buddhist or the Chinese for of their Buddhist legacy while sending Uighurs to reeducation camps.
Rohingyas were Bangladeshi Muslims, brought in by the Brits and not Citizens
SL had a similar issue. Indian origin tea estate workers were 10% of the population. They had been brought in by the Brits but not given any legal status. Why, so that they would not come under Ceylonese Labor laws which were quite Liberal for their time.
So Sirimavo and Indira sa down and 5% of the Indian workers were repatriated
Indians see everything thru the lens of Religion and caste. Many problems can have other roots, demographics in the case of Rohingyas and the Indian Tea Estate worker in Ceylon
GauravL
I already now the answer to “a lot” of Interfaith marriages in India
Let me see how you defend your claim,
This is from Pew Research
Inter-religious marriage, also known as interfaith marriage or mixed marriage, refers to the union of two individuals who belong to different religious backgrounds. In India, such marriages can be solemnized under the Special Marriage Act of 1954, which allows couples to marry without converting to each other’s religion.
In india 2.1% marriages were inter-religious. Arunachal Pradesh has the highest rate of inter-religious marriages. 9.2% of the total marriages in arunachal pradesh were inter-religious. Followed by Sikkim (8.1%), Manipur (7.6%), Punjab (7.3%), Meghalaya (6.7%) and Jharkhand (5.6%). While West Bengal reported the lowest rate of inter-religious marriages at just 0.3%.
“Muslims tend to be more intransigent viz conversion of spouse”
Sharia is very clear that a Muslim man can only marry a Christian or a Jewish woman without her converting. A Muslim woman cannot marry a non-Muslim man (there are no exceptions for women).
Of course, Kareena Kapoor married Saif without converting to Islam but that was not a “nikaah”. Under Islamic law, they are not actually married (not that I think either of them cares about that).
I have a family friend/acquaintance (Pakistani but lives in the US). She married a guy from Iceland. He had to convert to Islam (even if only on paper) before there could be a “nikaah”.
This is a very important and honest comment.
As xtm would call High signal
This is theory more than practise; the mobile phone has contributed to an astounding wave of secularisation in the Middle East (Turkey-Iran).
Every population now has a chance to taste the forbidden fruit via the internet. This idea as to why some populations resist modernity is what Trump invoked when he first attacked Iran (regime change).
Nothing was so existential to the Iranian regime as Zan, Zindegi, Azadi; that was an indigenous movement that had real concession (women in big cities don’t wear the hijab much anymore).
For instance had Pakistan let East Bengal just have Bengali and English; Urdu would have rapidly become the language of Islam. Now with Bengali blood shed for the language of Tagore; it’s become sacralised to the extent that even the most Muslim faction in Bengal will never suggest Urdu (since they would immediately be told to vacate to Pakistan).
Myths are nourished on Martyrdom; if Arjun had been not gone to war with the Pandavas, the Bhagavad Gita wouldn’t have become the Greatest Story Ever Told (the Bible is of a People not a Person).
These people live in the US. They could easily have gotten married in a court. But I guess her family in Pakistan wanted her to be married according to the religion. Otherwise, in the eyes of Allah she would have been “living in sin” with him.
My cousin married a Christian (Korean-American) woman. My aunt and uncle asked her to convert to Islam (which she apparently did). I guess it makes paperwork in Pakistan easier.
It happens in Indo Aryan Pakistan which has wilfully forgotten its Indo Aryan roots.
Belief in religious superiority fuelled by historical wins fans this kind of zealous, fanatic behavoir.
Not going to be the last of any such incidents btw, despite all the outrage.
All criminals dont think they Will be caught until they are. Plus a lot of people seem to have a warped sense of honor that justifies murder if urgent is seemingly breached.
See an analogue to the case that you referred involving an inter religious couple
https://article-14.com/post/even-after-their-son-was-lynched-the-khan-family-did-not-leave-the-hindu-village-3-months-later-they-fled-694f49ba99322
The fact is that the people caught in TCS case will be tried and spend years in jail. That is where the fundamental difference in response comes from, we know when the perpetrators are muslim not only them but even their family will suffer, this is not guaranteed when the muslim may be the victim.
//
All criminals don’t think they Will be caught until they are.
These are not normal criminals; Question i pose is – If the system and society is oppressing a community {which i do not agree with but even if one grants that} – how do significant numbers of the community find the courage to hatch up conversion conspiracies.
Does anyone here such stories from Muslim majority stories ? Of course not ! Thinking Hindus could muster up a conversion racket in Bangladesh is a laughable preposition. Even well funded churches don’t attempt these stunts in Muslim majority countries.
I thought a lot about why we dont see this kind of thing in Bangaldesh or let’s say even Mauritus or Guyana where hindus are more prominet minorities and the answer that I think is awareness thst certain actions and behaviors have no place in certain setups and bring dishonour to the position that you have been afforded by basically being born lucky.
There are countless muslims both who are richer than the perpetrators and poorer who would never do auch a thing because they have the above awareness.
The perpetrators clearly lacked this awareness, have little empathy to place themselves or the women in their life in the position they put the victims in and seem to have believed that nothing could ever go wrong for them at all, why they thought this, I don’t know.
I have learnt that many human beings rather than being maliciously smart are instead stupid beyond all.measure. These individuals were lucky enough to be in a position that would allow them to do something for themselves, their community and their country but were too stupid and unempathetic to do so.
I am not trying to whitewash the crimes, being stupid and lacking empathy, is condemnable when these lead to harm of others directly.
Also what exactly is significant numbers for a 200 million strong community?
to reiterate the focus is on the asymmetry on how Hindu minorities behave and muslim minorities behave in Pakistan and India respectively. You first tried to shift the focus on Hindu-Muslim dynamic within India. When rightly called out by Gaurav, you pulled out the classic matrix where anything bad done by Muslims is attributed to all Indians, any good by muslims is attributed solely to them. OTOH any bad done by Hindus is attributed solely to evil + casteist Hindu and good done by Hindus is spread around not just to all Indians but generously attributed to “South Asia”.
Where did you see any of this? Because I cannot.
The first and foremost thing these individuals from Nashik are not representative of all muslims, like most criminal they lack empathy and like most human beings most muslims in India have empathy to others. Can you point out specifically where I said these individuals are representative of all Indian, much less all muslims? I would like to see that myself.
//OTOH any bad done by Hindus is attributed solely to evil + casteist Hindu and good done by Hindus is spread around not just to all Indians but generously attributed to “South Asia”.//
I am not even talking about evil done by hindus at all. My only reason bringing up Suleman Pathan from maharashtra case was to point out that like the case from Delhi he highlight, cases where muslim is a victim happen as well and it does not take a genius to figure out that when caught the law works as it should for muslim perpetrators, where does Hinduism come in this?
In the same way, partition violence in Punjab is always called “Hindu-Muslim” never “Sikh-Muslim”.
I guess Sikhs are Dharmic in a global setting.
But in Dharmic space; they become more distinct.
I am not trying to whitewash the crimes,
// Thats exactly what you have done
You have reduced something which a religious thing into something like a basic human fallacy like lack of empathy or awareness –
Stupid and unempathetic ? are those the words you use to describe religious fanatics who are intelligent enough to pull such scams ?
//
There are countless muslims both who are richer than the perpetrators and poorer who would never do auch a thing because they have the above awareness.
==> what awareness – that idolators also have dignity ?
+1
The lack of self-awareness and cognitive dissonance in his comments is mind blowing.
Can you explain what lack of self awareness and cognitive dissonance I am displaying?
Since you agree with Gauravs comment, do you also believe that them being muslim is the only factor? Why does this not happen in Wipro, Prestige, lulu and others then? And furthermore in instance i highlighted where did I link the perpetrators religion with the crime?
I dont think that what happened with Suleman has anything to do with the perpetrators religion but definitely has to do with the perpetrators own ignorance and lack of empathy towards others, like in this case
A word to the wise:
You must have noticed by now that BP tends to attract commenters of a very specific ideological persuasion (not everyone but by and large).
If you don’t toe the right-wing line on whatever the subject happens to be you will find yourself the subject of the daily “ten minute hate”.
Since you’re not Muslim (I assume by your name), you can’t really be called an “Islamist” but I’m sure they’ll come up with some other insult for you. I suppose “anti-national” will be the go to.
I’m sure you can deal with it but just a heads up that it becomes exhausting after a while.
(I’m fully prepared for this comment to be deleted, which is fine).
I rarely delete comments; I find nothing wrong with your comment –
I dont have to agree with all comments
I wasn’t referring to you but to XTM.
Just to clarify.
I have rarely found fault with your moderation.
I am feom an Indian christian background. I am not perturbed by pushback.
Compared to the kind of things I have been called the people on this site are quite civil.
I guess since you are an Indian citizen, the worst they can say to you is “anti-national”.
If you were Pakistani, then the knives would really be out.
For the record, I have received an actual threat of being held at gunpoint from someone on this site so no they are not “quite civil”.
Kabir, you yourself are not above “making threats.”
To be a victim requires credibility as well. It’s a precious resource.
When have I ever threatened to hold a gun to anyone’s head?
I really don’t want to litigate this again but since you responded like that:
Please do tell me what your reaction would have been had I threatened to “infliltrate” India and hold a gun to someone’s head and make them say “Allah ho Akbar”?
I’m willing to bet it would have been a lifetime ban from this site.
I’m still absolutely livid that that threat was made.
I have no interest in being a “victim”. I’m fully capable of standing up for myself.
If a Pakistani had threatened an Indian, there would have been a lifetime ban. But when an Indian threatens a Pakistani, he gets a one-week suspension.
So do think about how that looks.
Also, I’m appalled that you mitigated BB’s behavior by saying “He was on a ‘Dhurnadhar High”.
If I had watched a four hour anti-India and anti-Hindu movie and made a similar comment, I don’t think you would have mitigated my behavior in the same way.
BB was clearly expressing some very fascist-like tendencies. Had this been my forum, he would have been permanently barred.
The irony of BP is no one gets as much privilege and latitude as you but no one claims to be more victimised ..
It’s a Masterwork.
It is much easier to deal with BB; he misspoke and we absolutely condemned it.
He doesn’t even engage with you now, he seems like a fun easy going guy who loves his country (maybe a bit too much but so long as he doesn’t cross a line, he watches cricket, goes to Festivals has a keen eye on the world).
The Commentariat tend to get on well with one another for the most part even across the divide.
You are the only Commenter who gets away with disrespecting & threatening us both on Forum & on private messaging. And still gets to stay as Author.
If you want me to pull out the exact quote I’m fully prepared to do that.
Those are your words are they not?
Had a Pakistani told an Indian to say “Allah ho Akbar” at gunpoint, I don’t think you would have been so understanding.
He’s not a “fun easy going guy”, he’s a Hindu right-wing fascist. Any truly neutral person would have reached that conclusion. As El Khawja said, BB is a “reprobate”.
“The Commentariat get along well with one another”– Yes, because only Pakistanis and Muslims dare to challenge their Hindu right views.
Anyway, I’m happy to put this to bed now. You edited the post that offended me. I don’t think it needed to get as heated as it did.
But I’m not going to be a pushover. Anyone who defames me will have to be prepared for the consequences of their actions.
Saying that one is going to explore legal options is not a ‘threat’. Everyone on earth is entitled to prevent themselves from being defamed.
Then why do you engage with BP?
You seem a glutton for punishment..
I’m not in the habit of letting myself be bullied out of spaces.
You are free to ban me. However, you also know that most of what draws commentary is India vs. Pakistan.
If it were not for me, this forum would be a place where everyone (mostly) agreed with each other’s right-wing views.
I’m not asking for much– just decency. No personal trolling. No gratuitous use of language like “kleptocracy” “genocide” etc.
Decency is really not too much to ask for. Especially if you want to be taken seriously as an intellectual forum.
I will admit that I’m no angel but Sbarrkum and I have had to take a lot of nastiness for daring to challenge the views of Indians.
If it were not for me, this forum would be a place where everyone (mostly) agreed with each other’s right-wing views.
Just thought I will call out that there is more disagreement among apparently Indian commentators here than between Pakistanis and sbarrkum. There was also lots of disagreement before you – all it takes is a quick trawl through past posts. What you have added is a certain bitterness where you feel like you have the unquestionable right to criticise India and Indians in any terms you see fit but are not able to take the same criticism when directed at you/Pakistan.
Exact – we don’t see any homogeneity in the “Indian views.”
In fact there is a ton of nuance as we can see in this thread alone.
It’s simplistic to somehow claim any one individual is bigger than BP; this is a collective effort all around. We are hard-pressed to think of any forum on the internet, where Indians and Pakistanis can converse in a relatively civilised fashion. We wish that were not the case.
Any neutral person would be able to see that there is a certain animus directed towards me and Sbarrkum that is not directed towards Indian commenters (even those who are clearly left wing).
Congeniality is a virtue – a lot of the “conflict” on this Blog would disappear if there was more politeness.
Ever since we have been more arbitrary and “firmer” in our moderation, the quality has shot up and so has the varied nature of the Commentariat.
I don’t disagree on the need for politeness. But this applies to everyone.
The amount of passive aggression (and downright aggression) I have faced is beyond ridiculous.
I’m not going to allow myself to be bullied or railroaded. That’s not going to happen.
we’ve had a precedent post on kleptocracy already. The facts speak a lot louder than attempted ‘patriotic’ bullying.
Feigning injury and attributing strawman hypothetical hostility is actually gaslighting.
And very low signal.
This is an incredibly passive aggressive comment.
Victim blaming is not a good look. No one is seriously claiming that I wasn’t threatened with a gun being held to my head.
Threatening violence against someone is a crime.
Kabir, as you are not doubt aware, that this is a Moderated space. We take “arbitrary decisions” all the time in how to refine BP.
For instance when BB made his comments, we took firm and immediate action. Rehashing that as an example of BP not being a “safe space” is counterproductive.
We don’t want to litigate this but no Commenter has been as disrespectful to us personally as you. We are contextualising it (we balance BP’s interests against our own) but “crying Wolf” constantly also weakens your corner.
You are a great writer, you have a lot to contribute and yes we didn’t like the “Indians can’t read title.”
Why are you obsessed on the shortcomings of India; why has there never been any serious discussion from you on how Pakistan could actually do better.
The only arguments that seem to stem are “Beloved Fauj”, “we are nuclear”, “Indians dare not touch us.”
It is easy to claim that this is a “biased space” but frankly it is not. and yes 5,000 India deserves extra respect.
Briefly:
“Why are you obsessed with the shortcomings of India”– One doesn’t tell an intellectual what he or she can focus on.
One could also turn around and ask RNJ why he is so “obsessed” with the “shortcomings” of Pakistan. How come the question is never asked that way?
“India deserves extra respect”– No sovereign state deserves more respect than any other sovereign state.
It’s your blog in the end but I can tell you that if I had a blog and one commenter made a threat of violence against another–no matter the circumstances– the person making the threat would have been banned for life.
A suspension of a couple weeks and eventually having authorship restored is not an adequate punishment by any means.
We dealt with BB appropriately- future comments endlessly touching on it will be removed.
If you wish to pursue other means of recourse outside of this space, that is your prerogative but it now an end to this matter.
As you know BB can’t engage with you directly going forward and has apologised. Let’s not rehash this now.
He’s apologized to you. He never apologized to me. In any case “I’m sorry if you were offended” is not a real apology you give to someone to whose head you threatened to hold a gun.
I’m happy to put this discussion to bed but do introspect about how you would have treated a Pakistani threatening an Indian in that manner. “Appropriateness” would have been judged very differently in that case.
Why does this not happen in Wipro, Prestige, lulu and others then?
Strawman but let me indulge you for a bit – Young girls working in Lulu have already voiced their concerns anonymously online. Won’t be long before you are proved wrong.
Coming to the argument — there is something to be said about the profile of perpetrators. It is obviously no one’s case that Muslim businessmen are using their institutional power to abuse Hindu girls. The perpetrators are your average Joes that you’d find in any corporate set-up who used their access to authority and power to abuse these women. In a way, that is actually even more worrying because if this was an institutional problem then it could have been addressed top-down.
//Strawman but let me indulge you for a bit – Young girls working in Lulu have already voiced their concerns anonymously online. Won’t be long before you are proved wrong.//
We shall cross that bridge when we come to it. I dont believe everything I read on the internet.
//The perpetrators are your average Joes that you’d find in any corporate set-up who used their access to authority and power to abuse these women. In a way, that is actually even more worrying because if this was an institutional problem then it could have been addressed top-down.//
The only way to deal with these is greater sensitization and zero tolerance to mildly abusive behaviour.
We shall cross that bridge when we come to it. I dont believe everything I read on the internet.
Thank god for the internet and especially social media. Otherwise things like this would have never been covered in mainstream media, or worse still, we’d have seen the Left Liberal media try to pin this on Hindu extremism somehow. Old enough to remember how Congress tried to portray 26/11 as a Hindutva terrorism conspiracy.
The only way to deal with these is greater sensitization and zero tolerance to mildly abusive behaviour.
I don’t know if you are being deliberately obtuse or genuinely do not understand the nature of the beast. This is not some run of the mill harassment in the workplace that can be mitigated by HR mandated yearly trainings. This was not the work of a radicalised single individual but rather a network of 8 men who collaborated with a Muslim HR lady to compromise internal redressal mechanisms and throw the victims to the dogs. If this was the simple case of individuals acting maliciously then where are the high profile cases of Hindus doing the same to Muslim women? If religion has nothing to do with it then based on pure statistics, you should be able to name at least 5 cases for every 1 such instance of harassment by Muslims of Hindu women.
If you are here to engage in good faith and truly open to questioning your priors then perhaps you can consider this –
The TCS incident has to be seen the broader context of forced or predatory conversion by Abrahamic faiths (especially Muslims) in India. I can name at least 10 such incidents of mass predation committed by Muslims in just the post covid era alone – Chhangur Baba, Islamic Dawah Centre case, Maulana Kaleem Siddiqui, Bhopal College Conversion racket, Shooting academy conversion racket in Indore… hope you get the drift.
For all the flak India gets on this forum, I’d like to see at least a couple of similar corresponding acts by Hindus (or other Dharmic peoples) anywhere in the world.
I can see Muslims defending this because dawah is a fundamental part of their faith but therein lies the problem. Other people groups have shown a remarkable capacity for introspection, correction and reform when their religious norms have clashed with modernity. I am yet to see even a flicker of an impulse to that end from Indian Muslims. A reading of Dr. Sahab’s latest may be illuminating in that regard. Until such impulses are shown and become somewhat mainstream, the gulf between Hindus and Muslims is only going to grow.
So lynching for suspicion of carrying beef , shutting out muslims from housing in certain areas, rejecting muslims for job opportunities( which I guess will increase quite a lot now) dont count?
If I bring these up I am supposedly making a false equivalence. But the point remains there is plenty of harassment if you want to see it. But it seems unless it involves conversion through coercion crimes dont merit much consideration.
Furthermore, how many of these cases with the exception of the ajmer dargah serial rape cases, have been proven in a court of law. When we have instances of terror charges proving fraudulent, an FIR is not proof of conviction.
If these are proved it only shows some individuals dont have any issue in using unscrupulous means, not that the whole community is involved in some kind of conspiracy even if they are stuck in the past and want to exist separately from most other Indians.
Agreed one hundred percent.
I like you. We need more center-left people to articulate their POV here.
//You have reduced something which a religious thing into something like a basic human fallacy like lack of empathy or awareness //
Why are you reducing such a complex issue to only religious belief. Please explain to me why this kind of thing does not happen in muslim run corporations in India like Wipro or any company by thr Lulu group or groups like prestige? If this is something that is from religion as you claim then mualim run companies should be rife with instances like this. Yet some like Lulu group are even courted by Yogi Adityanath?
There is clearly something unique to these individuals beyond their religious background that needs to be understood. After all even our religious understanding are product of our own characters and background. If this person was raised in a way that did not teach him to be empathetic towards women and to put your views on everyone else. Because they were muslim they are trying to legally coerce people to islam. There are plenty of people among all religions all throughout the world who have this kind of mentality.
I can give examples but I think you first thibk about why muslims are so one dimensional thst all their actions stem from their religions but everyone else are multiple dimensional enough that their actions have many influences.
//what awareness – that idolators also have dignity ?//
That everybody has dignity. And you should treat others as you want to be treated. Most humans irrespective of religion understand that? That is why millions of people interact with muslims quite deeply and dont have negative experiences like this.
Does my writeup or any comment imply i mean all Muslims are likely to run such scams ?
No – by and large most humans of all faiths are decent and law abiding {wrt to major crime};
Questions i posed particularly –
Why do significant % of a minority that is allegedly under immense pressure by majoritarian forces think they can get away with such rackets ?
As you agreed – non Muslims dont behave in such way in Muslim majority countries – what makes {some} muslims act this way ?
-> Here i speculate – is it due to past glory against the idolator ? or certainty of ones faith.
In addition i also pose why Hindu liberals react masochistically and their Muslim counterpart {wherever they are} act in self preservation – be it when UK grooming gangs scandal or these cases in India.
India is a large and populous country – I could find an atrocity against most communities every day in exercise of whataboutery – thats not what i am doing here.
/////
That everybody has dignity. And you should treat others as you want to be treated. Most humans irrespective of religion understand that? That is why millions of people interact with muslims quite deeply and dont have negative experiences like this.
-> yes but there is significant history and present legislation that treats the idolator as the lesser. There is some sort of legal discrimination in almost all Muslim majority countries;
Isn’t it only fair to assume that these practices are also part of the culture and hence present in individuals albeit to varying degrees {as everyone have their own faculties}
//Why do significant % of a minority that is allegedly under immense pressure by majoritarian forces think they can get away with such rackets ?
As you agreed – non Muslims dont behave in such way in Muslim majority countries – what makes {some} muslims act this way ?//
The significant % is what made me think that you are speaking of people as a whole. Since this incident happened, a lot of commentary has veered into supposed religio-political aspects of why a muslim does a crime.
And to be fair, you are also enquiring into these very aspects.
My main point is, culture and religion are extremely complex things that produce different outcomes even among people in the same household, much less a 200 million strong community.
To come to your point, the average educated muslim who is religious mist likely has a neutral to maybe negative opinion of other religions but theirs. The kind of nostalgia that is prominent amongst muslims in India for the mughals or people like tipu sultan, almost guarantees that some feel the same way about themselves as other martial communities, leading to a hightened sense of pride. I will.agree that there is serious introspection thst needs to be done about the intellectual currents thst have developed amongst muslims in the last 200 years.
We can admit all of these things and we still need to confront the fact that there are 100s of 1000s of educated muslims who dont sexually harass or dominate others when they get the chance.
Only these individuals can tell us what they thought when they harassed people, but there is no reason that their own stupidity and clear lack of empathy should be given less of credit in precipitating crime than the very real negative thought currents amongst Indian muslims at large.
//In addition i also pose why Hindu liberals react masochistically and their Muslim counterpart {wherever they are} act in self preservation – be it when UK grooming gangs scandal or these cases in India.//
I wanted to address this separately as it is a different topic altogether.
I think taking people at face value is probably the best. I think a lot of muslims in online spaces, aware of how they are seen by others genuinely cant fathom someone doing these acts, and instances where muslim men are exonerated after a lengthy prison sentence serve to only bolster this notion that there is a conspiracy against them by the society at large. Furthermore they themselves may have a rather rosy picture of their own culture and tradition, as we can both agree there is a in muslim intellectual tradition of the last 200 years that needs to be analysed properly.
I dont really know why the hindus you describe act the way they do. For me, hindu liberals are represented by folks like the deshbhakt or devdutt Pattnaik whom I have never seen act the way you describe.
If you could only find a 2 bit rage-baiting Youtuber as representatives of Hindu liberal intelligentsia then I have a Tejo Mahalya to sell you.
I understand where your arguments are coming from ;
I have myself made those for years – even on this blog;
I just slowly realised my arguments are wrong and now am making new ones – which i believe – instead of being idealistic
I am not being idealistic. It is just thst over the years I have also come to realize how much our own upbringing and worldview have over how we see and interpret our religious beliefs and practise our culture.
It is a foolish thing to use actions of some individuals to predict actions of individuals on a larger level.
It is a foolish thing to use actions of some individuals to predict actions of individuals on a larger level.
It is also foolish to think that despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, this problem is not almost entirely the domain of one special community in the country.
What overwhelming evidence is there that muslims at large want to forcefully convert people?
You can bring up plenty of examples of bigotry of communities towards others all over India, some of these are even supported by the local government, but that will rightfully be seen as over general zing or misrepresentation? So why are criminal or lumpen elements in other communities just criminal or lumpen elements but in one community, the criminal elements are default of the community as a whole. Even when it comes to spreading the religion the mainstream consensus amongst Indian muslims is to ensure it is done willingly.
If I use your same logic against other communities you would against accuse me of whitewashing or making false equivalence
What overwhelming evidence is there that muslims at large want to forcefully convert people?
It is literally a fundamental tenet of Islam. Even if you discount the argument that this is a uniquely Muslim problem, you still haven’t explained why no other religion in India has come close to the frequency and scale of such egregious behaviour. Where are the terrorist attacks leading to mass casualties? where are the open threats of one day converting the whole country to Islam?
And speaking of innocent Muslims being targeted as terrorists, in the rare instance that happens it is indeed unfortunate. However, I must remind you of the abysmal track record of Indian police in investigating such incidents. We had a High Court acquit people while observing on record that it was apparent from the accused were guilty but couldn’t actually be convicted because the burden of proof in such cases is high and the shoddiness of investigation meant they couldn’t be convicted.
//We had a High Court acquit people while observing on record that it was apparent from the accused were guilty but couldn’t actually be convicted because the burden of proof in such cases is high and the shoddiness of investigation meant they couldn’t be convicted._//
The high court judge seems to be speaking from his own bias. A shoddy investigation is a proof that in all likelihood there is little proof especially if the accused us someone without deep connection and who belongs from a community and has done an act that general society is prejudiced against.
//It is literally a fundamental tenet of Islam.//
It is encouraged to bring people to Islam, not bring them against their will. We dont live in a society thst depends on Islam’s for its sustenance that forceful means will be encouraged. In most cases the individuals who do this also perform a host of other abuses, this is conversion is just one more on top of that. In other words Dawah for these individuals is the justification for their other atrocities. Similar to how a person lynches for carrying beef is using the veneration of cow to physically harm and even kill someone. I dont make a difference between one egregious behaviour and other just because conversion is involved.
//Where are the terrorist attacks leading to mass casualties? where are the open threats of one day converting the whole country to Islam?//
I think you are focusing on form over substance.
If people die one way or the other does it make a difference whether you personally start the killing or whether you make others do it for you.
https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/delhi/up-bajrang-dal-leader-among-4-arrested-for-slaughtering-cows-to-falsely-implicate-a-muslim-man-9138701/#:~:text=*%20Cities.%20*%20Delhi.%20*%20UP%20Bajrang,cows%20to%20falsely%20implicate%20a%20Muslim%20man.
As far as threatening to change the country’s character are concerned, with violence if needed, look at the below.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newslaundry.com/amp/story/2026%252F01%252F27%252Fswords-slogans-and-hindu-rashtra-the-mahant-calling-for-a-religious-war-against-minorities
https://article-14.com/post/2022-the-year-hate-got-away-scot-free-in-india–63abade79c159
The high court judge you quote seems to be speaking from personal bias. In a state where muslims are normally poor citizens who have the stigma of being terror accused and where large sections of society are looking for punishment. Police doing a bad investigation only serves to prove innocence. I dont know ehat case you are referring to.
And Dawah in India encourages wilful conversion, the state does not depend on Islam that forced conversion would be looked favorably. Furthermore, there are lots of other crimes that are done and dawah seems to be the excuse to justify these crimes. Not dissimilar to crimes done for the using cow protection as a justification.
Finally, we have many people who give threats of social boycott of muslims and creation of a country where their will is law. And I dont think people who create circumstances for crimes like for instance throwing beef or pork in a temple or mosque are any better that terrorists who train specifically to kill. People die in both cases, just thst one pulls a trigger the other makes others do the work for them.
Religions aren’t so deterministic (it’s a fundamental tent of Islam etc); they are also natural processes at play here.
“It is a foolish thing to use actions of some individuals to predict actions of individuals on a larger level”
Agreed. Well said.
It’s nice to see someone else left of center on this forum.
What a terribly sad story about this poor Muslim family and their son getting lynched.
Very typical whataboutery to deflect from the topic under discussion. Was waiting for somebody to draw a false equivalence, and here we are!
we were moved by the story and focussed on it.
I brought the case of Suleman to be equivalent to the below case FyI
//Family of Man Killed by Girlfriend’s Family Says Killers Told Him to Accept Islam or Call Off Relationship | Swati Goel Sharma//
Furthermore it is obvious to anyone that wheels of justice work much better in case of certain perpetrators than others.
Finally can you tell me why is this not widespread in all muslim run companies? If this is about religion and nothing else unique to individuals?
I don’t think that the ordinary Muslim (not the ashraf) has any illusions of being rulers.
It’s the belief drilled in by the discourses that Islam is the only true faith , moves them.
In my many interactions with Khans, mirzas, beighs, they are very comfortable with upper caste Hindus and are very proud of this. Infact some of them claim that majority of their friends are Brahmins.
Yesterday , rizwan Syed, a Lucknow advocate, who has a YouTube channel, while naming the suspects acclaimed that many were pasmamda Muslims!
they are very comfortable with upper caste Hindus
some of them claim that majority of their friends are Brahmins
Sad, every observation is couched in terms of caste.
But proudly claim there is no caste in India
Caste IE. Jati means by birth. this is a reality. There was denial of opportunities due to Jati, which has reduced a lot.
The “one true faith” view makes it tempting to attribute every injustice and every societal failing to a necessary side effect of the majority religion.
Yes exact this is what we’ve noticed about the Zio-Christian Hindu alliance against Islam.
There is virtually no nuance and religion is ALL about nuance.
There is no alliance amongst Jews-Christians and Hindus. If anything, we are on the receiving end of predatory conversion by Christians ourselves and arguably face as much if not more discrimination for our beliefs as Muslims in Western countries.
Sorry, but all the Abrahamic faiths believe theirs is the only “true faith”.
I’ve been stopped by missionaries on the streets of NYC who’ve asked me to accept Christ as my personal savior. You just smile, say no and move on.
This is not specifically an Islamic thing.
I didn’t suggest it was. I’ve had many similar experiences with the added fun of “your going to hell” if you don’t accept JC. That said, the Indian context is one where the middle class and above are constantly interrogating societal failure. The savarna hindu mind drifts towards blaming corruption which then leads to how “vote banks” are the obstacle. The muslim middle class may be more likely to look at it as spiritual corruption, that more principled islam could solve, or at least save society from its worst aspects
Apologies. I took your “one true faith” thing as a slight against Islam. My experiences on BP have perhaps made me oversensitive to people’s tone. I am becoming suspicious of anything an Indian says.
No missionary in the US has ever told me I was going to hell. They’re mostly just doing their job and when you say no they move on.
If you’ll forgive me for saying so a lot of Indians seem to reflexively blame Muslims for a lot of things–some of which really have nothing to do with religion as such. India has very effectively created an “Other”–the Muslim.
Of course in Pakistan from the beginning the “Other” has been the Hindu.
very interesting paragraph: “For liberal Hindus, distancing themselves from their co-religionists isn’t enough; they often go further, masochistically making mountains out of molehills. For liberal Muslims, the initial instinct is to worry about how such incidents will be used to demonize Muslims. This self-preservation instinct was also prevalent in the Valley during the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Hindus.”
[…] X.T.M on At the Heart of the conflict […]
TNT is passe. Clash of civilizations is a better descriptor of what the subcontinent has become post 1947, or perhaps since the 8th century AD. One side has the end goal of converting or killing to rule the world by force, the other to preserve its one and only bastion. Only time will tell who ‘wins’ but I feel the defending side’s timidness is going to be its undoing.
that seems extremely hyperbolic.
Which part seems hyperbolic to you – The side with end goal of converting everyone or the side trying to preserve its heritage? Maybe both?
Even the most liberal interpretations of Islam advocate Dawah. The differences are only with methods and aggressiveness allowed. But does it matter whether Daawah is done using a sword or by grooming a child, endgoal is same.
I don’t mean disrespect but naam de guerre is indeed being hyperbolic (and absolutely wrong) when he says that there is a side which is trying to preserve its one and only bastion. Because if this was the case then they would have made some kind of framework to deal with it after 1947, instead of dealing with it on case to case basis.
Because if this was the case then they would have made some kind of framework to deal with it after 1947, instead of dealing with it on case to case basis.
You are right, I was only trying to juxtapose the two competing factions. We’ve just not had anyone with a long term vision and clarity of what the Partition meant for Dharmic peoples. There was no recalibration of what our inherently tolerant ethos would mean in the long term; no long term vision to ensure this doesn’t happen again. Current trends are very, very worrying.
There is a liberal anglo side as well.
If it isn’t for our religious differences do you think that we would’ve gotten along better ?
This seems like a question with an obvious answer.
The whole basis of Partition was the ‘Two Nation Theory’ which is based on religion.
Had there not been religious differences, British India would not have been partitioned. The fact that Muslim concentration was mainly in the two “wings” also added to it.
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