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Kabir
6 years ago

So a little bit of Googling got me this (I didn’t even go beyond the first page of results). It is quite amazing how much research one can do on Google, if one wants.

“Even before the arrival of colonial powers into the Islamic world, some scholars from diverse backgrounds were arguing that the faith and practice of Muslims had become distanced from the original message of the Quran and the Prophet, as the masses had adopted devotional practices, of which the devotion to saints is the most commonly mentioned, that they saw as unjustified innovations. They also felt that scholars had begun to give more importance to the centuries of scholastic tradition than to the original texts of the religion. For many, the failure of Muslim societies to resist colonialism was a sign of God’s displeasure in the corruption of the last religion, and therefore the correct response was to return to the era of the first Muslim community. Now referred to as “Salafis,” a reference to the salaf or early companions of the Prophet, those who hold this perspective are interested in the “correct” practice of Islam and reject anything they perceive to be innovations inconsistent with their interpretation of the model of the early Muslim community, focusing on Sufism and Shi‘ism in particular. Such reformers often look to the Quran and Sunnah as the only authoritative sources for Islamic law, but, to varying degrees, they ignore the inherent pluralism and the continued discourses of the sharī‘ah system in favor of a single interpretation of those sources. Some examples of these diverse movements are the Wahhabi movement in Saudi Arabia, and the Jama’a‘-i Islami of Pakistan. ”

This is from The Harvard Divinity School, so the source is extremely credible.

There is also this:

http://en.qantara.de/content/islamism-in-the-past-and-the-present-from-anti-colonialism-to-global-jihad

https://acc.teachmideast.org/texts.php?module_id=2&reading_id=211&sequence=2

I’m not particularly interested in Islamism. But feel free to discuss among yourselves.

Kabir
6 years ago

What is Islamism? Let’s start here (what do I know? My specialization is English Dramatic Literature).

“Islamism is a concept whose meaning has been debated in both public and academic contexts.[1] The term can refer to diverse forms of social and political activism advocating that public and political life should be guided by Islamic principles[1][2] or in some cases to movements which call for full implementation of sharia. It is commonly used interchangeably with the terms political Islam or Islamic fundamentalism. In Western media usage the term tends to refer to groups who aim to establish a sharia-based Islamic state, often with implication of violent tactics and human rights violations, and has acquired connotations of political extremism. In the Muslim world, the term has positive connotations among its proponents.[3]

Different currents of Islamist thought include advocating a “revolutionary” strategy of Islamizing society through exercise of state power, and alternately a “reformist” strategy to re-Islamizing society through grass-roots social and political activism.[4] Islamists may emphasize the implementation of Sharia (Islamic law);[5] pan-Islamic political unity,[5] including an Islamic state;[6] or selective removal of non-Muslim, particularly Western military, economic, political, social, or cultural influences in the Muslim world that they believe to be incompatible with Islam.[5]”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism

The point of the link above from Harvard University was to demonstrate that there is an association between Islamism (Salafism) and the colonial encounter. This is not an idea that I came up with as a Muslim. If Harvard University says it, it must be taken seriously. Even to argue against it.

bharata bharatavanshi
bharata bharatavanshi
6 years ago

Did muslims kill/fought muslims for being insufficiently muslim before colonial encounter? Then islamism existed before colonial encounter as well. aurangzeb and his brother dara shikoh come to mind.

Kabir
Kabir
6 years ago

The Shia Sunni civil war has existed since the death of the Prophet (peace be upon him). That is not the same as modern “political Islam” or “Islamism”.

The Mughals all killed their brothers in order to secure power. Not sure that that has very much to do with Islam. It has more to do with not having a set system of succession (like the British monarchy had primogeniture).

Anan specifically asked about the increase in “Islamism” post 1900. That is where the association with the colonial encounter comes in.

anan
anan
6 years ago

Bharata you are right that the Islamist Aurangzeb oppressed the supporters of the wise Hindu Sufi muslim Dara Shikoh–killing huge numbers of Shia, Sufi, Sikh and Hindu. There are many examples of Islamism before 1900. That is why this question is specific to Islamism after 1900. Please share your views.

I don’t fully agree with Kabir about before 1900. I think that most of the liberal strains of Islam emphasize Ali and Fatima (twelvers, sixers, fivers, Sufi). Not all of them are liberal but on average they were and are more liberal (Ali was nicer to nonmuslims and relatively liberal muslims than the three Caliphs that preceded him). But let us drop this discussion for now and focus on post 1900.

Kabir
6 years ago
Reply to  anan

Dara Shikoh was not a “Hindu Sufi” (whatever that means). He was a Muslim. The internecine fighting among the Mughals had nothing to do with religion. If you read Mughal history, you will find that killing your brothers to get the throne is a long tradition that goes back into the early days of the dynasty. Only the strongest prince survived. Kamran and Askari wanted Humayun dead. Not sure that had to do with their religion.

Aurangzeb was not a nice person. Locking your dad in the tower and presenting him with the head of his favorite son is positively Shakespearean. But then Richard III also murdered the princes in the tower. People do what they need to to keep power. This is not what is meant by “Islamism”. Let’s stay with Wikipedia’s definition for the sake of clarity.

Kabir
6 years ago
Reply to  AnAn

It’s not about your definition. As far as I know, you are not a credentialed scholar of political Islam. If you have a master’s degree in the subject from a proper university (preferably Ivy League) , please let me know.

The whole point of Wikipedia is that every statement is sourced. Those who choose to can go back and look at the original sources. The Wikipedia definition is a consensus one so that we are all clear what we are talking about.

In any case, applying the word “Islamist” to nos ancestres les Mughals is deeply misguided. Aurangzeb may have been a puritan but he was not an “Islamist” in the 21st century sense.

bharata bharatavanshi
bharata bharatavanshi
6 years ago

Knowledge if indicative of anything must be decided on prediction. Low prediction= low knowledge, less the value for phd. one might have degree in history or anything else for that matter, makes no difference. It has no practical value. Knowledge should be put to practical tests where it must succeed for it to be even seen as correct knowledge. Historians play 2 roles, record events of past as bunch of facts, give interpretation. Their interpretation can be questioned. One doesnt need phd or be a scholar to question, it is open to all.
Aurangzeb brought back jizya, he killed his brother for not being good muslim. There was politics and the reason given was religious . One cannot divorce one from the other. As I said earlier, there are 210 reasons for why roman empire collapsed given by various historians. Foolish to go by what historians have to declare.

Kabir
6 years ago

I’m sorry. You need credentials to be credible. I could write about computer science, but since I know nothing about Python or Java, I would look really stupid.

That is the whole point of degrees and peer-reviewed research.

Aurangzeb had his brother killed. On that we agree. As I pointed out, Richard III had his nephews murdered in the tower. Richard III was not a Muslim. Elizabeth Tudor had Mary, Queen of Scots killed. This is what royals did when they felt their power was threatened. So the association of Aurangzeb’s murder of Dara and Dara’s heirs with Islam is frankly dumb.

bharata bharatavanshi
bharata bharatavanshi
6 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

I pointed to re imposition of jizya also. Not just murder of his brother for religion. It is jizya and death of his brother. Second, Historians as accumulator of facts have merit, historians as interpreters for others do not.Because, as I pointed earlier. there are 210 reasons for collapse of roman civilization. Computer code can be checked, so again comparison with computers is invalid.

Kabir
6 years ago

If you have no credentials, you just have opinions. Come back when you have acquired an M.A. Degree in Islamic Studies from Harvard.

Otherwise, there is no reason why I should not consider your opinions to be frankly worthless.

Cheers.

bharata bharatavanshi
bharata bharatavanshi
6 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

so one needs credentials to question in history? such a pathetic yardstick unlike science. Where there is no limit to asking questions because the methods are very clear. The predictions very well too. Arguments from authority has no place in debates.

Kabir
6 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

One needs credentials in science too. I don’t pretend to understand physics because I don’t hold a Ph.D in theoretical physics.

You are free to have opinions (those opinions could be really stupid however). But you need to back up your opinion with references to credible secondary sources. This is fairly obvious and what I tell my undergraduate students.

There is no point talking out of your hat.

Cheers.

bharata bharatavanshi
bharata bharatavanshi
6 years ago

Again, science is not argument from authority. At the very least, the math checks out. History comes with facts and how they are tied in to each other. Which is interpretation.

Satish Chandra, “Jizyah and the State in India during the 17th Century.” Aurangzeb re imposed Jizya in 1679, led to revolts.

Kabir
6 years ago

The historian’s job is interpretation. This is what you are supposed to learn in a graduate program in history. How to interpret and how to back up your interpretations with references to credible primary and secondary sources.

Yes, Aurangzeb re-imposed Jizya. Doesn’t make him a bad guy. Just makes him more Orthodox than Akbar. It also doesn’t make him an “Islamist” in the 21st century sense. He was not Al Qaida.

Audrey Truschke (not a Muslim, so you can’t accuse her of bias) has reassessed Aurangzeb Alamgir in her book “Aurangzeb: The Life and Legacy of India’s Most Controversial King”. She is an Assistant Professor of History at Rutgers University. She knows whereof she speaks. I haven’t read her book, nor am I particularly interested in Aurangzeb. But you could use it as a reference if you genuinely are interested. If you’ve made up your mind that he was a horrible person, then there is no point arguing further with you.

http://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=28067

Here’s a review by an Indian Hindu:

http://www.thehindu.com/books/books-reviews/aurangzeb-a-stranger-no-more/article17408332.ece

Kabir
6 years ago
Reply to  AnAn

I don’t particularly care about Aurangzeb Alamgir. But he was a Mughal king not an “Islamist”.

Audrey Truschke has a degree in History. She is a professor. At this point, I trust what she says more than what you say. You have yourself said you are an economist, not a historian. But I’m happy to not discuss her. I will only be commenting on my own threads from now on (I keep saying that but this time I really mean it).

Prashanth
Prashanth
6 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

And I am bored with degrees and professors, particularly in social sciences. The whole subject is subjective, so degrees and professorships do not matter. Flaunting degrees impresses no one. Place your arguments, period.

Kabir
6 years ago
Reply to  Kabir

Arguments without credentials lack credibility.

What do you have against social sciences? I could take offense as a social science major 🙂

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