Smash the Brahmanical Patriarchy

58 Comments

Above Ellen Pompeo talks about the burdens of being an Elder Race..

Thoughts on the biggest issue rocking Indian Twitter?

* Jack Dorsey and Lewis Hamilton must be slapped with lifetime bans to India.

* the Indian government must suspend all Twitter accounts and F1 racing (Mercedes should be banned).

* Any apology must show absolutely contrition and anyone demonstrating Coloniser Privilege should be publicly shamed.

I saw Jack D’s twitter page; his appropriation of Dharmic motifs is simply shameful. As if his ancestors did not cause enough havoc to our beloved lands with their divide and rule and other such nonsense.

In fact there is good argument that it was British who had a very keen interest in reviving caste. Admittedly caste goes back to the very early genesis of what it means to be Indian (much like the gods our tripartite heritage of Aryan, Dravidian & Aboriginal).

Of course I’m projecting an extraordinarily “Pakistani approach” but for Pakis we live and die by Izzat. Partition was also the loss of a mindset as well as everything else; the one where honor comes before all else..

0

58 Replies to “Smash the Brahmanical Patriarchy”

  1. yes, that and more. I think its about “social activist” credit that comes now, say you are an ngo or something fighting some thing and its easy virtue points. So a new issue needs to be chased everyday, and better in other lands than in home. so fighting white patriarchy isnt cool for jack . Jealousy is also a deep issue. a world of equality will show much inequality in terms of success as well. I never wanted to believe in genes and populations at all, I still dont. However, when the only 2 fields medal winners of Indian origin seem to come from some backgrounds. Its an issue. If others succeeded in innovations, awards, etc. They have something to aspire for without looking at what others are doing. And of course divide and rule is easy, rather than go after all Hindus, can pick one after other, turn it all inwards.

    Andrew sullivan was first to post this argument

    Facebook and twitter,
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/16/opinion/facebook-zuckerberg-investigation-election.html

    When no standards are required, and you can mass communicate, the worst prejudice prevails, covered up in activism/(trauma) crap to justify it.

    “”
    @robinhanson
    Hanlon’s Razor says: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. But Hanson’s Razor inverts it: Never attribute to stupidity that which is adequately explained by unconscious selfishness.”


    @coldxman
    Oct 29
    More
    We need a term for arguments of this type:

    I’ve experienced [X] trauma, therefore my opinion about [X] issue is correct.

    I propose the “Ad Traumanym Fallacy””

    These two arguments also fit here in this new dialectical tricks

  2. total shit-show.

    my position:

    1) you can think caste is not good on the whole for s asian society

    2) without being divisive and scapegoating a whole group (brahmins)

    the dalit radicals have a place in calling out shit. but they aren’t the only nor mainstream voice.

  3. @razib sums it up clearly, I am connecting it to wider sjw activism as a whole. Activism for activism sake. I think it was francis fukuyama who pointed this out, someday people might be activist about ugly/beautiful inequality as well.

  4. While i do understand where does the whole “Patriarchal Brahminism” thing stems from, i feel the problem is that in today’s India the things are in flux and the Brahmins are not totally controlling/or at fault for the society ills. The Brahmins no longer at the top of Electoral chain,even though they do have over representation in the middle rung , Private Orgs, Business,Education and bureaucratic circle . This makes them a sort of “not ideal” villian for caste/class wars. They can actually point fingers to other castes today which have imbibed the same value system and say its not all their fault and they are being scapegoated.

    The maximum atrocities upon dalits have now moved on from Upper caste on dalits to OBC on dalits, or now OBC on dalits have significant numbers.

    One curious thing which i have noticed is the North vs South/Bengal divide where the left/dalits/woke have been far more critical on Brahmanism/Hinduism including the woke Brahmins. They have called Jack out for pussyfooting now, while their woke Northen counterparts have been a bit defensive once the controversy broke and have tweeted like “Not all Brahmins” stuff (one woke freind of mine has a durga pic as DP on twitter). This shows how different the woke folks are in these regions. The Northen woke still wants to preserve certain elements of hinduism , while the south woke wants to throw the yoke of hinduism all together( in lines of Ambedkar)

    1. Different histories, hence I believe if Total population transfer would have happened, this would have been in north as well. Some kind of anti clericalism would have been copied and applied and as some scholars have said, that was injected into south by missionaries(protestant anti judaism copied apparently — vishwa adluri) .

      1. Hello bharat,

        You may not remember me but you were the first person who replied to me on my first comment at Brown Pundits and at that time, I did not reply to you back because I completely agreed with you. I was also extra-shy and extra-inhibited at that time (and I have progressively lost a lot of shame at Brown Pundits over the months lol). I apologise for any disrespect felt.

        Now, I only cursorily heard about Prof. Vishwa Adluri and I will try to read the relevant works that pertain to the topic you mention in your comment but it has been, so far, my totally non-scholarly and very lay and kinda folk view that at least the coastal Andhra renaissance of the mid-19th and 20th centuries was at least not fully rooted in Catholic Christian/British Christian worldviews. I think this because of the following: the division of the Telugu Brahmin community into two broad categories – a priestly one called Vaidikis and a secular one called Niyogis is significantly older than the British period in Andhra. The Niyogi Brahmins were a major part of the Telugu secular cultural elite for a long while before the British (some of them held prominent administrative positions in various Muslim dynasties of the then-Telangana as well: folk knowledge brings Akkanna, Madanna, and to some extent Ramadas of Bhadrachalam to mind immediately) and I suspect it was maybe a natural-ish and easy-ish position only for the Niyogi Brahmins to adopt some types of changes socially (like the opposition to bride price, dowry systems, and child marriage, striving for the improvement of the position of widows in society, etc.) and some other respects. While they might have been very well influenced by the British/such others, it appears that they quite directed the coastal-Andhra Telugu renaissance in quite a Telugu Hindu direction. What do you think of this? Could you point out my mistakes (which certainly must be existing, at least some) above if it’s okay for you? Thank you very much!

        Or is the Christian influence that you mention in your comment posited in your source(s) (I plan to look at Vishwa Adluri’s work at a later point in time but am quite curious now too as might be expected) as applying at any later date than the one I discussed above?

        1. Thanks for your perspective. I am trying to understand your comment but lack the nuanced background and nuanced understanding to fully appreciate them.

          Can you describe Prof. Vishwa Adluri?

          Please keep commenting!

          +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

          BTW, I only learned what “woke” meant by reading and commenting at Brown Pundits.

      2. Oh I see now! Your comment was majorly about some type of an anti-priest attitude, not everything. When I read the comment earlier, I in fact grasped this and decided to not write any comment but now I forgot all about it and wrote the comment off in enthusiasm. Sorry for the inconvenience.

        But then, I have to mention that I remember this anti-clerical thing not making much sense to me in the context of Telugu regions the last time I read your comment too. I personally don’t feel there is any anti-priest attitude in the majority Telugu people; there is a hint of an anti-Brahmin attitude in several other historical upper castes probably out of jealousy, the usual fights for power in Telugu society and such other reasons but that’s about it, as far as I know. I don’t know about Maoist-influenced, communist-influenced, and any radical leftist Dalits but I think that at least some number of regular Dalits might not be too opposed to Brahmins, either secular or priestly, at least much higher than they might be to the usual peasant castes. Even historically, the peasant castes (rich landowning and poor, lower-amount-of-land-owing peasant classes within them) have been the people who typically committed violent atrocities directly against the Dalits.

    2. “One curious thing which i have noticed is the North vs South/Bengal divide where the left/dalits/woke have been far more critical on Brahmanism/Hinduism including the woke Brahmins.”

      At least for S. India I have noticed that Brahmin/non-Brahmin is a huge deal. They are a much smaller percentage of population but (proportionally) control a lot more wealth than in the north. Maybe due to lack of large merchant castes.
      Also, physiological differences are noticeable i.e. a S. Indian Brahmin on average is much fairer than an intermediate caste person whereas in the north they just blend in (IIRC Razib’s data for Telugus and anecdotal observation).

      Brahmins never seemed a very big deal till I moved to Bangalore. Almost every other wannabe stand-up comedian here has a bit about ‘My family is Brahmin, so you know…’

      Don’t know about Bongs. Might be the communist experience.

      “The maximum atrocities upon dalits have now moved on from Upper caste on dalits to OBC on dalits, or now OBC on dalits have significant numbers.”

      Wasn’t this always the case? Just that upper caste on OBC atrocities are now no longer feasible. That’s been a win for social justice.

      1. Funny enough some of my woke Brahmin friends (few of them stand up wallas) who hate Modi have suddenly gone a bit soft on Modi once the controversy broke out. LOL.

      2. “Just that upper caste on OBC atrocities are now no longer feasible.That’s been a win for social justice.” — Lol, the strongest jaatis in Tamil Nadu are actually BC/OBC. Another land-owning jaati Maratha is getting a special backward class tag for them now. Jats are soon going to join the fold. Oh Btw, there are brahmins and baniya groups in OBC. What kind of social justice is this when people just keep getting ‘backward’ even after 70 years of independence ?

      1. No, but upper caste (barely) since there is intermarriage happening in both Brahmin and OBC household. We tread on caste edges 😛

    3. “while the south woke wants to throw the yoke of hinduism all together” — A lot of people in South India(read Tamizh Nadu) want to keep ‘Shaivism’ as they believe Shaivism is a part of non-vedic religion which originally belongs to the Tamizhs. They grudge is against ‘Sanskrit’ .
      Bengal, imo, has the least division on castes and inter-jaati marriages are quite common there. Jaati-based vote bank politics doesn’t work in Bengal from what i know.

      ” to OBC on dalits, or now OBC on dalits have significant numbers.” — A great number of what you call as atrocities /mistreatment are due to them working as landless laborers under the landlord jaatis lot of whom have been moved within the BC/OBC fold hence your observation.

    4. Most conversations around this have made a clear distinction between “brahminical” and brahmins. Then why do they bother using the former term with the risk of conflation? Supposing all oppressive forces are unique in their own way, within Hindu society it is pollution and untouchability. So while the agrarian feudal castes enforce servitude and employ violence, without the brahminical pollution fetish, it is just tribalism. Tribalism is problematic but has patterns globally that are reconcilable perhaps, and most of the extreme dehumanising depredations of caste discrimination are linked to untouchability. Keep in mind, all castes (except for one) are polluted to some degree or another, and the internalization of that belief is quite unique to the hindu social order. So as a concept, “brahminical” might be a good name.
      The assumption, that is debatable of course, is that brahmins are especially responsible for pollution fetish cascading down the social order. Would it persist greatly in societies where their cultural leadership has receded?

      1. “most of the extreme dehumanising depredations of caste discrimination are linked to untouchability. Keep in mind, all castes (except for one) are polluted to some degree or another, and the internalization of that belief is quite unique to the hindu social order” — Aah,i see , something new i learnt here. ‘Pollution’- a nice term.

        Btw, could Jains be accused of the same untouchability thing given that an orthodox jain wouldn’t eat from the utensils used by a non-veg eater ?

        1. I’d say yes. Vegetarianism underlies how social boycotts are enforced. Much of what goes in the name of hindutva is just vegetarian nationalism. Muslim vegetarian>hindu beef eater for sure.

          1. “Keep in mind, all castes (except for one) are polluted to some degree or another” — But saar , what Lingayaths doing ‘untouchability’ on Brahmins ? Back in the old times, Lingayaths didn’t use to accept food from brahmins and employed their own ‘priests’ , am i correct ? So, it seems that for Lingayaths, orthodox brahmins used to be ‘polluted’.

            “I’d say yes. Vegetarianism underlies how social boycotts are enforced” — But what about the ‘religious freedom’ of jains ? Why should it be called ‘untouchability’ when they find meat/carcass etc abhorring ?

          2. TD, not sure what you are trying to find out about the religious freedom of Jains. No one is trying to curtain their liberties as far as I know.
            I’ve also heard that certain veerashaiva sub-castes did not receive food from brahmins, some of those groups styled themselves as quasi-brahmins themselves, though formed a very small sliver of the overall class of people identifying themselves as veerashaivas. If you are trying to generalize to the lingayat community from that, you won’t come to a sound conclusion.

  5. OK, this is ridiculous, but I will bite. I do not even think this post is for real, but..

    What does it mean to ban someone in India? That sounds like something from Indira era. Anybody can say anything anywhere in the world.

    I am half-hearted about twitter banning, as it is a big time waste, but why not ban whatsapp instead? Just be random about the whole thing, it will confuse everyone.

    Why is the Jack guy a colonizer; because some meber of his family may be five six generation ago was British?

    When they say Brahminical, I guess they mean Hindu, so effectively calling out all upper castes.

    I suggest going all the way, and demanding more representation of Dalit and ST in diaspora H1 jobs, and IT jobs, and US companies demanding a 20% representation. To be honest, same thing for China, Tariffs if Uighurs continue to be mistreated; and free Asia Bibi or 20% Tariff on Pakistani textiles. Have the power, use it.

      1. Indra bans the Dasas? Do you mean Danavas and Daityas? How? They fight and then agree to a power sharing settlement peace agreement.

        Do you mean “Dasa” as in slave or servant?

        How could Indra ban Kali Yuga? Way over the pay grade, right?
        +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
        I just saw the above video and am even more confused.

        I find the above female (and not because she is female) to be condescending, pretentious, patronizing with the hard bigotry of low expectations. Now if she said that there is a lot of Latino and Black talent that could greatly improve our entertainment product and that there is a market inefficiency that we can exploit in order to gain market share from our competitors . . . I am all with you sister. You have the added advantage of being right.

        Darkies don’t need her help. Darkies are doing just fine without her. Darkies are far more powerful than her greatest day dreams, far wiser than her wildest imaginations, and far more loving than she can fathom. Darkies rock! Go darkies! Darkies forever!

        # Stan in the Hood.

      2. It is so sad, as a Hindu, I had to look up who Indra was and what dasas were. I knew the name, but I could not get the joke.

        Up and including the time of Gandhis the Indian government was prickly, used to get terribly excited when someone said something about anything remotely Indian, and they used to ban something. No one had actually read the satanic verses in September 1988 in India, and then the idiot PM bans it because the opposition Janata party (this party used to have a minimum age requirement of 80/men exclusively), and then the insane Ayatollah declares a death penalty. So the entire youth population in Madras runs out to buy the book, but it was a hard read at like a million words. In those days the govt. used to ban random books (which immediately used to sell more copies), movies, songs and persons, when random people used to complain. Since then, I barely remember bans happening the last 20 years.

        Now after 30 years people want to ban random guys..

        1. Did it also happen with the da Vinci code too in madras ? I remember it was banned as well.

          The funniest part was mf Hussain paintings where the paintings were not banned , but he was essentially banned . I think no one would even dare take the anklet of Lakshmi now the way our politics is supercharged. Ah edgier Times

    1. “and demanding more representation of Dalit and ST in diaspora H1 jobs, and IT jobs, and US companies demanding a 20% representation. ” —- Lol. Reservation even there.

      1. Don’t laugh. There will be a genuine push toward reservation in private colleges/jobs reservation once opposition comes to power. Specially one which might be dependent on dmk, SP,BSP,rjd. This is last role of their dice considering jobs are a big factor now in India.

        That would automatically lead to more st and sc representation in diaspora etc

        1. “There will be a genuine push toward reservation in private colleges/jobs reservation once opposition comes to power” — Very unlikely. But that would be way too much.
          Why not provide scholarshios and other assistances to meritorious students from other communities in private colleges instead of giving direct seats which will have a very low cut-off ? Private companies are perhaps one of the few good things happening in india where no one cares about other’s identity. Such a move will increase the divide not decrease it. Our politicians are really dumb.

          “This is last role of their dice considering jobs are a big factor now in India.” — Why don’t these politicians work towards controlling population growth of the cow-belt region ? Too high pop. with respect to jobs growth.

          Besides, isn’t there 93rd amendment of RTE ? Minority run schools and colleges don’t require reservations i think. If idea of reservations in private colleges are brought up, imo , most of them will christian-ize themselves and declare themselves as minority run schools.

          1. You are giving reasons why it should not happen, I am saying why it might happen. Regarding RTE do you think Colleges haven’t tried that trick before? It doesn’t work mostly and the State has a vested interested to stop that from happening. And companies cannot christian-ize themselves

          2. I know you have a broader point to make but,
            \\Private companies are perhaps one of the few good things happening in india where no one cares about other’s identity\\
            This statement goes unchallenged typically, but my experience has been that even in the MNC hiring scene/new economy, there’s a huge amount of regionalism/linguistic chauvinism. Caste favouritism manifests within these categories. I’m not an activist in this matter , but just cautious of putting a halo on any industry.

        2. congress promised this in 2014 manifesto already, Easier to give reservations than to give up the political power or create money. The hardest thing is to create money, which essentially is to create technology/science. That requires huge talent. I thank ashkenazi jews. Can someone calculate the percentage of ashkenazi jews eliminated by hitler. Given 25% of all science nobels go do them. I suppose had they lived, we would be better off by couple of decades perhaps?.

          1. IIRC Nitish Kumar had made a big deal of private sector reservation some time back.

            “This statement goes unchallenged typically, but my experience has been that even in the MNC hiring scene/new economy, there’s a huge amount of regionalism/linguistic chauvinism.”
            Not sure if this is a ‘problem’ to be solved. Or that reservations are the optimal solution for it. But everything can be used as an instrument in India as long as you create a perception of justice. Markets are not going to be an exception to this.

          2. Yeah this idea that private colleges/companies are immune to the pressure of the Govt and are based on “merit”. Everyone of them is a crony capitalist of the highest order. In India if the Government wants something , they have it.

  6. As to banning facebook/twitter, I believe in that because they dont provide any essential service, their presence is a trouble for us creating our own tech space. Future is data+AI and its extremely important for economy and security. Govt alone cannot create these things, private tech companies are important. Also to restrict foreign use of these sites to instigate and incite . All that before this issue. I am more worried about the future, data absent countries dependence on foreign companies with data/ countries without tech dependence on countries with tech.

    The danger these companies pose to sovereignty/security/economy of other countries is going to become even more big.

  7. private sector would not be a problem had India industrialized 50 yrs back, now jobs are less, so once again politicians /countries that are unable to solve these problems with innovation will look for more coercive ways.

  8. The good message that came out (at least to me) from this brahminical patriarchy rigmarole is that the White Westerners no longer consider Brahmins to be a morally inferior culture – to be shielded from intervention by the Prime Directive. The same standards as WASPs apply to them too 🙂

    1. you mean applies to you. Also, they never considered to shield them if you followed the literature. Especially if one wants to criticize hinduism , this is a way in.

      1. PCness is a modern, post-War thing.

        The early-modern moral criticism of Hindus by Brits led to Hindu reform. I thank the Victorians for that and for a lot else.

        1. criticisms were motivated by other reasons/prejudice & not entirely for purely moral reasons. And I am thankful that we had brains to try to sort those criticisms that were legitimate from wider racism/colonialism(something muslims have been having trouble to do till now). It is to this judiciousness that I credit success to and now that has been eroded. The very idea of being judicious is either seen as discriminating if not justice system itself is being co-opted for ideas that cannot stand reason.

          I have problem with this as it will lead India to avoid looking for solutions as to what can create wealth. Activism for activism sake is also responsible for India not valuing creating of wealth/reforms/science for progress and instead believe in even more activism & reservations shall solve problems that can only be solved by prosperity. Believe that all ills are due to “brahminical patriarchy” & I am sure if all brahmins emigrated it would be “ksahtriya/vaishya patriarchy” , As to activism is concerned, I would happily swap it for more sensitization in education instead. I mean its easy to that instead. Also, its easier that ills are due to x than to focus at capabilities instead. And its the same sort who will find every excuse possible tp deny ideology/religion link to failures in other context. The fact that they arent even using same yardsticks tells me that they dont believe in their own crap. Ultimately, jealousy and sense of inadequacy is motivating them. Its easier to spin those as some form of activism and carry slogans to smash this or that.

          If we lived in a world where historically marginalized communities of all kinds succeeding & winning noble prizes in sciences, holding wealth,power, we would see this as well but then bias would be more clearly observable as outright bias and not be camouflaged in terms of justice. Reminds me of brakha dutt interviewing some kids in kahsmir, where they reply as fighting for Islam & she tries to put words in their mouth and replace it with kashmir instead.

          This reminds me of Indians in uganda. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-36132151
          “Despite making up less than 1 percent of the population they are estimated to contribute up to 65% of the country’s tax revenues”

          https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/mandela-slates-crass-proposal-to-exclude-coloured-and-indian-bee-contractors-20171016

          https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/opinionista/2018-06-21-on-the-indian-question-in-south-africa-a-response-to-mob-psychologists/

          https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/indians-benefited-under-apartheid-in-south-africa-analysts/articleshow/53777350.cms

          https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/opinionista/2017-08-30-lets-talk-about-indian-privilege-in-apartheid-south-africa/

          I mean who cares as long as we are prosperous and vote counts and violence and discrimination takes you to jail. Can we have universal basic income now.

          1. bharat, can you write a series of articles on the success of Asians in Africa? I have thought of writing such a series. But I would rather you did. 🙂

            Over 80% of South Africans are non colored blacks. 2.1% are Indians. Yet there are about 1 1/2 times as many Indian millionaires and black millionaires. Why do you think this is?

    2. “Slapstik says:
      November 21, 2018 at 10:34 am
      The good message that came out (at least to me) from this brahminical patriarchy rigmarole is that the White Westerners no longer consider Brahmins to be a morally inferior culture – to be shielded from intervention by the Prime Directive. The same standards as WASPs apply to them too 🙂”

      Slapstik, I completely agree. I realized in High School while interacting with university professors that there was a lot of anti Hindu sentiment. What I took from it was that Asians and Hindus were no longer considered oppressed or inferior. And I was happy about that.

      Most people of African heritage that I know wish they were not considered by caucasians to be “a morally inferior culture – to be shielded from intervention by the Prime Directive.” Too bad “The same standards as WASPs [didn’t] apply to them too 🙂”

  9. @Slapstik: I think it;s a one off , where Jack was caught wrong footed on the whole issue. I still think the woke white westerner will be wary of using posters/words like ” brahminical patriarchy” anymore not necessarily due to the backlash, but this whole “this is their culture, who are we to judge” view, similar to Hijab. They would much rather it be a brown vs brown fight. You could see that in their hesitancy to criticize the backlash and pointing it to the nearest dalit man/woman they know. Had it been a white-lash you could see the solidarity being far stronger.

    One of the funniest aspect of the whole thing is how either side is trying to be too clever by half. The right knows what ” brahminical patriarchy” means and why its being used. They dont need Ambedkar etc (as if he is some icon of hindu right) to make them understand. This is sort of the post Kavenugh hysteria where Trump used “all men can be accused of rape” type of thing to pontificate at woke/semi religious/cultural hindu upper castes. That’s why the left has become a bit defensive and said stuff like its not about brahmins, we are not attacking brahmins etc.

    The left thinks that by couching their language with “brahminical patriarchy” , they can critic hinduism effectively , without pushing away the generic woke/semi religious upper castes away from their anti-right coalition. Many in the left are already facing this issue of being outsiders to the whole debate since they are agnostic/atheist/christians/muslims etc and need “authentic” hindu/brahmin voice to criticize the hindu right.

    Both sides think that the other side cannot see through this charade.LOL.

    1. Saurav, I have always found caucasian post modernist university professors happy to criticize Hinduism. And happy to criticize Asians.

      It is more that the people you are mentioning don’t know didley squat. And they don’t want that advertised. I bet most of the people attacking “brahminical patriarchy” know zilch about eastern philosophy and are embarrassed by that.

      If they knew enough to say hold a conversation, they would love to vilify Asians and Hindus/Buddists/Sikhs/Jains/Zorastrians/Toists/Bon. They certainly are not shy to attack the Asian elite, Asian business and the Asian rich.

    2. @saurav yeah,some of what you said rhymes with what I said. we should distinguish our brands, I sense much similarity now that jaggu mentioned it & its irksome.

  10. @anan, I dont know much. Its just that what yuval harari said to an african lady in an interview bothered me, that tech is there in only few countries. Others are going to struggle. I was wondering about that, consequences of that, Indian presence. And few pieces of data seem to be pointing towards that, unless something is done. World is going to suffer from jealousy wars like never before. Except it wont be under the name of communism, it will be in name of caste, intersectionality,tribalism ,social justice etc.

    no, you should write about this as you have done some reading . I am looking for clues on how countries that do not have enough talent to adapt to modern world are going to deal with this issue. Or how they will degenerate, coerce others out of their property etc.

Comments are closed.