Kabir says calling India, that is Bharat, a civilisational state is a “right-wing position.” We disagree; and the disagreement isn’t political, it’s archaeological.
Look at what Mohenjo-daro actually gives us: the Pashupati Seal; three-faced, ithyphallic, seated in yogic posture, surrounded by elephant, tiger, buffalo, rhinoceros. Proto-Shiva. The Mother Goddess figurines. Linga and yoni stones. Pipal veneration. The sacred bull. Every single religious thread runs forward into the living Hindu tradition.
Lord Shiva is still being worshipped. The pipal is still sacred. The ritual logic of the Great Bath still lives in the sacred tank. That is not assertion; that is continuity you can touch.
Pakistan is welcome to construct an “Indus National” identity. But that project requires explaining how a civilisation whose core deity was Proto-Shiva bequeaths itself to a state whose foundational theology requires the repudiation of exactly that. Geography is not continuity. Practice is.
India doesn’t claim Harappa because of lines on a map. She claims it because she never stopped. Four thousand years of unbroken thread; from the Pashupati Seal to the nearest functioning Shiva temple. Pure and simple stratigraphy.
@Kabir – India is both the inheritor of the IVC and the Mughal empire.
Pakistan is well hehehe
This is “low signal”.
There was no nation-state of “India” before August 15, 1947.
I’m not going to get into this incredibly repetitive conversation again,
I can see Pakistan as partial or majority inheritor of the Indo-Muslim legacy
This is a reasonable argument.
so churlishly pedantic. Iran isn’t ‘Persia’, but it still is. India similarly is a concept that pre-dates the concept of modern day ‘nation state’.
You can bury your head in the sand all you want.
Clearly you don’t understand what a nation-state is.
BRITISH India was a colony. It was the British that created the borders of “India”.
This is the historical consensus. But please feel free to ignore it.
The Mughals and their predecessors had a very clear idea and definition and borders of their Empire, which was Hindustan.
This is ahistorical
Admin Note: this is a low signal comment, you have not rebutted our comment.
My point was that when the Mughals used the word “Hindustan” they meant the area around Agra and Delhi. They spoke of going from “Hindustan” to the Deccan.
“Hindustan” did not mean the nation-state of India.
Is Iran a civilizational state in your view kabir ๐
Iran is a sub-civilisational state; Islam is her civilisational though there is no doubt Iran is the dominant Middle East power.
Mesopotmia (upper & lower) are her projection fields but Anatolia, the Levant, the Persian Gulflets, Yemen & even Egypt are in shadow.
India is both a civilisational (Hindu) state, a continental one (the Indian Subcontinent & Ocean are her natural Dominions).
Also as She is the originator of Dharma; she is the founder of a rival World System (Dharmic), which means she is Supra-Civilisational.
Remember everyone went in search of India (Columbus, the first Chinese novel).
Dharmic World system is essentially a counterpoint to the Abrahamic world.
Kabir alas is steeped in colonial modalities (TNT is a post-colonial construct) to really grapple with the sui generis state of India that is Bharat.
Some Iranians certainly think so.
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/iran-iraq-and-politics-civilization
I think “civilization state” is a right-wing concept. It’s not one that I would apply.
the questions that will have to be answered ( as per this article) are as follows:
i) establish that a credible civilisation based on ‘ hindu’ symbols from indus and pre indus times existed and it continues in hindu india.
ii) then, systematically prove that this was a ‘jahil’ civilisation and claim that the islamic invasions of its land ‘liberated’ the ignorant masses from idol worship etc.
In my essay, I extensively quoted Shashi Tharoor– a centrist Indian. He explicitly argued that the whole concept of a “civilizational state” is inherently illberal.
Mohenjodaro and Harrapa are within the boundaries of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. I have consistently argued that Pakistanis should own all the history that lies within our borders. For what it’s worth, all “Pak Studies” books begin with the IVC.
Pakistan doesn’t need to claim an “Indus National” identity. Our existence is based on the Two Nation Theory. Otherwise, there was no point to a separate sovereign nation-state.
Shashi Tharoor’s essay is well worth reading. You don’t have to agree with it but it is an incredibly articulate rebuttal of this notion that India is a “civilizational state”
“Civilization States Are Profoundly Illiberal”
https://www.noemamag.com/civilization-states-are-profoundly-illiberal/
Quoting famous people does not make an argument
Sure.
The point is that Shashi is neither a Pakistani nor a Muslim.
You seem to think that India being a “civilizational state” is a fact. It is not. It’s a subjective opinion. Shashi doesn’t share it.
That’s all I’m saying.
Shashi is entitled to his opinion.
Shashi represents the center-left position in India.
Your opinion is not a fact.
India’s IVC inheritance is literally everywhere.
Admin Note: This is a low-signal comment; you have not rebutted our post.
I have personally walked on the IVC site in Lothal. Didn’t get a chance to go Dholavira yet, but probably next visit to India.
Pretending that IVC is ‘not Indian’ is like declaring victory in Op Sindoor and appointing yourself Field Marshal ๐
Touche
And this is an anti-Pakistan comment.
Insults to Pak Fauj complete with smiley face. Utterly juvenile.
We will not let you “personally walk” into Harrapa and Mohenjadaro,
I’ve “personally walked” in Harrapa. What’s your point?
That there is no geographical monopoly on IVC sites by the modern day nation state fabricated on 14th August 1947.
Admin Note: Stop Trolling
so are we in agreement that there is no geographical monopoly on IVC sites?
๐
This is a statement of the obvious.
The IVC long preceded modern nation-states.
It’s not some big “gotcha” moment.
If one can call Pakistan “fabricated” why is it “trolling” to point out that India is also “fabricated”?
This is a double standard.
Pakistan is an invented nation; Chaudhary Rehmat Ali’s pamphlet.
India has antecedents to the deepest history. It does not make Pakistan less real; it exists (and sometimes myths/imaginations are more important than reality) but there is no need to simply counter back.
Calling Pakistan “fabricated” is triggering to Pakistanis.
IVC people followed a non-Vedic religion while modern Indian Hindus follow a Vedic religion. They had a preference for eating beef, which is such a taboo that Hindus are willing to kill people over it. There is no real evidence of any continuity in script, religion, architecture etc. We do have some remnenants in culture like the bangles worn by Sindhi women upto the arm similar to the IVC figurine, or the Ajrak printing that is still common today in Sindh.
Genetically too, 70% Zagros ad 30% AASI is a ratio what you find generally in Sindhi populations when Steppe is removed, and the direct continous descendants live in Sindh and Punjab. Geographically, the major centres of IVC are in Punjab and Sindh.
Ascribing IVC to India or Pakistan is foolish, since these are modern national states and modern political entities. However if we are being honest, the people living inside Pakistan and some north western states in India are the only ones that have any genetic, geographical and cultural continuity.
There was no memory of IVC until British discovered it, especially to the Brahmins, so it must not have been that important or perhaps the Brahmins considered these people Mleccha. It clearly was not Hindu and people who ascribe Hindu civilization to it are just projecting their hopes onto it.
Do you perchance have access to a time machine, to be making such… confident assertions ๐
“Ascribing IVC to India or Pakistan is foolish, since these are modern national states and modern political entities”
Absolutely correct. Nice to have another patriotic Pakistani on this forum
.
IVC is shared civilizational heritage of all Indians, whether they salute the tricolor or the Pakstani green and white. ๐
Pakistanis are NOT Indian.
Emojis are juvenile. Carry on.
Indic. Children of the subcontinent.
Children of the IVC.
“South Asians”.
Choose your own moniker.
๐
“South Asian” and “Indian” are not the same thing. Sri Lankans are South Asian. They are not Indian.
“Indian” is a nationality not a race. Pakistanis do not carry Indian passports. We have our own national identity.
Genetically too, 70% Zagros ad 30% AASI is a ratio what you find generally in Sindhi populations when Steppe is removed, and the direct continous descendants live in Sindh and Punjab.
Interesting way of looking at it
There was no memory of IVC until British discovered it, especially to the Brahmins, so it must not have been that important or perhaps the Brahmins considered these people Mleccha. It clearly was not Hindu and people who ascribe Hindu civilization to it are just projecting their hopes onto it.
Much of India was considered Mleccha by the Brahmins and still is.
the people living inside Pakistan and some north western states in India are the only ones that have any genetic, geographical and cultural continuity.(to IVC)
Would not those having AASI and Zargos (Iranian Hunter Gatherer) have similar genetics to IVC.
There are small scale IVC layout and IVC symbols in Tamil Nadus Keezadi excavation.
Yes of course Dravidians are the truest descendants of that culture but Arya-Dravidian culture is a synthesis.
Tbf so was Hindu-Muslim culture prior to the Brits
Sorry I didnt mean to say ‘only’ because ancestry similar to IVC forms primary ancestral group of all Indians. However what I mean is the direct genetic & cultural continuity and proximity exists mostly in areas of Indus and its tributaries in Pakistan and Northwestern India. We know so little about IVC that nothing can be said with confidence about other areas in India claiming genetic/cultural continuity with it.