Op Sindoor Was Not a Pakistani Defeat: Precedents Two Days From Pahalgam

Two days from the tragic anniversary of Pahalgam (may those brave Martyrs rest in Peace for their sacrifice for Dharma). A useful moment to set down precedents, because a year out the narrative has hardened in places it should not have, and we would like the comments to stress-test these before they calcify further.

Precedent one. Operation Sindoor was not a Pakistani defeat.

Pakistan entered 2025 as a failed state. It exits the Pahalgam year as a diplomatic champion. Whatever happened in the skies over those days in May, the outcome in global perception is unambiguous. A military operation is never only a military operation. It is also how the world reads it, and on that ledger the result is not the one Delhi wanted. No Pakistani commentator across the spectrum treats Sindoor as a setback. Our Pakistani readers can confirm this in the thread, and we invite them to. The Indian premise that Pakistan might now re-engage to recover from some imagined humiliation makes zero sense. The humiliation is not where Indian commentary locates it.

Precedent two. The Crescent commentariat cannot have it both ways.

There is a pernicious Pakistani trait, most visible in the diaspora and the Anglophone class at home. They live distinctly Western lifestyles. They then want Islam for all. Live your beliefs. It is a genuinely offensive thing to cheer on the Iranian revolution, a revolution deeply devastating to the Iranian people, from an American suburb or a DHA drawing room. Only a Pakistani commentator could manage the trick of celebrating the Islamic Republic while exempting themselves from its consequences.

In the Iranian diaspora, religious Shias are quietly ostracised. Persian pride, across pre-Islamic, Islamic and post-Islamic registers, is astonishing in its depth. Some of us, the Baha’is for instance, integrate all three.

The TNT move, which imports Islamist preferences onto others while the class that holds them escapes the reality (QeA typifies this), is the opposite.

Precedent three. The rediscovery of Hinduism is coming, and it will come from South Punjab and Sindh.

In Urdu class just now, our teacher proudly spoke about Panjnad, the point where the five rivers of the Indus meet (the equivalent of Varanasi alas without Brahmins to sacralise it). He told me proudly that it was named in the Mahabharata. He told us the Sufi master of Panjnad married a woman of the Cholistani tribe, and the local people remember it 150 years later. The pattern recurs across the shrines dotted through South Punjab and Sindh. Sufi masters married into the local tribes. This is the oldest Muslim culture in the subcontinent, running back to the earliest invasions and Muhammad bin Qasim. It is the most syncretic.

Pakistani nationalism as constructed in Lahore and through Urdu is a denial of the Hindu inheritance in favour of a Persian one. Lahore dominates the cultural production, and Lahore is heavily invested in an Urdu-speaking identity for reasons of its own. That construction does not map onto the actual history of Multan, Bahawalpur, Sukkur, Sehwan. As secularisation proceeds, and it is proceeding piecemeal, regional ethnicities will do what Bengal has already done and reach for a pre-Islamic layer. The Mahabharata and the Ramayana are dense, spectacular, geographically specific texts. Most of the land they describe is in Pakistan. The internet is a very large place and Pakistanis, especially those who are truly autochthonous, will hunt for their heritage.

Within a generation, thirty to forty percent of Pakistanis will want to express some form of Hindu heritage. Not the majority. Not even the plurality. But a substantial and culturally consequential minority. It will not happen suddenly. It will be a process, uneven across regions and classes, and the Sindhi and South Punjabi will get there before the Lahori.

The Hindu right does not help itself. It does not know how to speak to this constituency. The parallel is Christian Zionism and its mirror: most Palestinian Christians, who are by descent far more plausibly linked to the ancient Israelites than most contemporary Zionists, are simply switched off by Zionism as currently configured. The communication failure is total, and the movement loses its most natural audience. The Hindu right is making the same mistake with the same demographic logic.

TNT nationalism is already fraying. It will have to adapt to a radically different landscape, the way Zionism will.

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sbarrkum
29 days ago

On the way to 4th slipped to 6th

I am surprised none the India rising contingent has not pointed this out.

The biggest party pooper for India’s dream of becoming the fourth largest  has been the rupee’s slide.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/130356662.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst..

YYZ
YYZ
29 days ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

Shaktikanta Das did a great job at RBI managing covid crisis and let that success get to his head. RBI should have allowed the currency to weaken in 2022-24.

If you look at the number closely, this seemingly sudden weakening in INR was building up for a last 4 years. Taxing FPI capital didn’t help either.

My reading of the situation is that INR can weaken another 2-3% from here even if there is no financial crisis in the world. Or upto 10% if we run into a crisis in current financial year. That would shake the bond market and put a final stop on any hopes of rapid infrastructure buildout.

Let’s hope I’m wrong about a crisis because if it occurs then all Asian currencies, except SGD will suffer heavily.

Last edited 29 days ago by YYZ
BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
28 days ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

Minor blip. 4th by next year and then 3rd by end of the decade.

sbarrkum
29 days ago

India fails to pass bill to boost women’s representation after delimitation rowOpposition accuses Narendra Modi government of using quotas as cover for redrawing electoral map

controversial exercise of “delimitation”. The process would redraw parliamentary constituencies along population lines based on the 2011 census, and would increase the number of MPs in the lower chamber from 543 to about 850.

Delimitation is one of the most divisive federal issues in India. It is particularly contentious in more prosperous southern states such as Tamil Nadu and Kerala, which have reduced population growth in recent years and fear their political representation would be penalised.

Meanwhile, poorer, more populous northern states – considered the BJP’s political heartland – stand to gain the most seats if redrawn.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/apr/17/india-narendra-modi-women-representation-delimitationl

Kabir
29 days ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

Yes, the BJP faced a defeat when they couldn’t get their constitutional amendment bill passed by the required two thirds majority.

The southern states are particularly opposed to delimitation.

formerly brown
formerly brown
29 days ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

1) Delimitaton of constituencies is a constitutional requirement. Population census happens once every 10 years. Boundaries of the constituencies are adjusted. Some time reserved seats gets switched. This time census did not happen on the 10th year due to covid. The general census has started.
2) Reservation of 33%for women has already been passed.
3) The issue was, that in many constituencies an MP is voted by 30lakh voters and in some places by 15 thousand.
The process of increasing the seats based on population was put forward for 25 years by Indira Gandhi in 1971 and was due in Vajapayee’s time when even he put it forward by 25 years. It was due now.
4) if the number of constituencies are changed as per population, all southern states will loose numbers. This was evident even with the 2021 census figures.
Instead, modi tried to increase number of seats in each state to maintain the same ratio as earlier.
Opposition felt that govt
Would gerrymander which is technically not possible as there will be a delimitation commission headed by a Supreme Court judge.
The changes will eventually happen.

One important thing. south india always had less seats compared to North india.

Kabir
29 days ago

“Within a generation thirty to forty percent of Pakistanis will want to express some form of Hindu heritage”–

With respect, this is extremely unlikely. Islam is very clear that there is no god but Allah. Idol worship is probably one of the biggest sins a Muslim can commit.

If you are simply talking about appreciating the common culture, this happens in Lahore as well. I keep mentioning that there was a celebration of Vaisakhi this past weekend at which I performed bhajans and shabads. Other people sang Heer etc.

Celebrating Punjabi culture (such as Vaisakhi) is one thing. But moving away from Islam is another thing completely.

Also, I don’t think “TNT nationalism is fraying”. Please don’t forget Pakistan is an ideological state. The TNT is literally taught in “Pak Studies” to children every year from primary school through their undergraduate degrees.

Last edited 29 days ago by Kabir
Kabir
29 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

On a related note:

“Hinglaj Mata festival draws nearly 300,000 Hindu pilgrims in Balochistan”

https://www.dawn.com/news/1993400/hinglaj-mata-festival-draws-nearly-300000-hindu-pilgrims-in-balochistan

I’ve been to Hinglaj Mata. Probably it was close to twenty years ago.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
RecoveringNewsJunkie
28 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

TNT-ers can shriek as loudly as they want, but the cultural affinity to India amongst Pakistanis cannot be wished away; or wiped away with Turkic larping.

Reality is that humans are inexorably moving towards lifestyles where religion is not the dominant cultural force. And once literacy and modernity reaches enough young Pakistanis, a decade or 2 from now, they are naturally going to question the artificial ‘berlin wall’ that has been erected by their elites.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
RecoveringNewsJunkie
28 days ago
Reply to  X.T.M

The ‘official’ leader of Hindutva celebrates Eid, recruits muslims into the RSS. “Hindutva” isn’t as much of a problem as just basic human tribalism and bigotry is. The undeniable bottomline of ‘Hindu’ society is that its primarily tolerant and inclusive. As India grows, matures and evolves, I think that inclusivity at its Hindu core is almost impossible to shed.

Of course, propaganda about Hindutva is a different thing altogether. Especially in the cacophonous echo chamber of social media.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
28 days ago
Reply to  X.T.M

Hindutva is a political movement.

It does not effect the popular media which is extremely secular.

Just like evangelicalism/white supremacy of the Republican party does not really affect Hollywood/American pop culture.

Even Aditya Dhar, for all the criticisms is only anti-terrorism and not anti Muslim or for that matter anti-Pakistan. His movies have positive Muslim characters as well as explicit scenes clarifying this which tbh breaks the flow.

The Dhurandhar movies have plenty of Muslim actors and musicians and the soundtrack even has a couple of Pakistani songs.

Indian music/movies dominate Pakistan, even overshadowing local content.

Netflix in Pakistan –

https://www.netflix.com/tudum/top10/pakistan

Filled with Bollywood, including Dhurandhar

Spotify in Pakistan –

h ttps://open.spotify.com/popular-all/popular-artists/pk

Added extra spaces because issue with two links

Dominated by Indians, both Hindi and Punjabi including Shaswat Sachdev from Dhurandhar.

naam de guerre
naam de guerre
28 days ago

Disagree. If Pakistan wasn’t an Islamic country, I’d have agreed with you but Islamic nations present a unique milieu where prestige is directly correlated with piety so societies tend to Islamize more as they get richer/modernize. This has been evident in countries as distinct as Turkey and Malaysia.

https://www.economist.com/asia/2026/02/25/modernisation-is-making-south-east-asia-more-islamic

I guess being the only major religion which didn’t undergo modernist reforms, Islam will continue to shape the world in its worldview without much change. Any brush with modernity is treated tactically to ensure it aligns with Islamic values and doesn’t endanger established structures. Of course, this probably requires a long post on its own but just laying out my disagreement with your view.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
28 days ago
Reply to  naam de guerre

UAE has gone in the opposite direction though.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
28 days ago
Reply to  naam de guerre

Why does everyone talk about ‘modernity’ as if this is something new, something to be embraced?

“Modernity” is just another name for Western culture.

Most of the world has been westernized, same economic systems, same set of ”rights”, same types of clothing, same type of celebrations, even the language and ways of thinking are becoming western everywhere.

The only resistance comes from Islam. Muslims provide the most resistance to ‘modernity’ and a majority retain traditionalism, whereas most other religions and cutures have capitualted to Western thought.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
27 days ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

>“Modernity” is just another name for Western culture

Hard disagree. Rule of law, functional literacy and free access to information, a degree of self-rule, gender and religious/ethnic equality, at least enshrined in social and legal norms – none of this is “intrinsically” western.

‘Resistance’ to all this isn’t pious, or islamic, or ‘traditionalism’. It is in fact toxic regressive capitulation to dinosaur elites. Cloaking it in the language of ‘resistence’ against the west is just post facto irrational rationalization.

Bombay Badshah
Bombay Badshah
27 days ago

Exactly.

The west got there first because they got rich and got enlightened earlier.

Eastern countries who have become rich have adopted these norms as are other developing countries as they are getting richer.

Last edited 27 days ago by Bombay Badshah
Kabir
28 days ago

You are underestimating the fact that the TNT is taught in “Pakistan Studies” every year from first grade through undergraduate. It is the basis of Pakistani nationalism.

Pakistan is an Islamic Republic. To be Pakistani means to be Muslim. Whether we like it or not that is the reality.

If it were not for Islam, we would be “Indian”.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
RecoveringNewsJunkie
28 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

>If it were not for Islam, we would be “Indian”.

🙂

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
28 days ago

Plot Twist: They already ARE.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
27 days ago
Reply to  BombayBadshah

And hence the cognitive schizophrenia that manifests itself in a variety of ways. 🙂

Kabir
28 days ago

The point is that the distinctive nationality of Pakistanis is only because we are Muslim.

Partition was explicitly done on a religious basis.

Pakistanis are not “Indian”. It offends us immensely when our distinctive nationality is denied.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
27 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

nationality is superseded by ‘culture. The easy absorption (and mostly willing at that) in Indic diaspora, especially in the west is ample evidence of this.

Nivedita
Nivedita
28 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

Well said.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
28 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

This is just not true, I don’t know why you keep repeating this. I literally went through Pakistani education system. TNT is taught in grade 9 and 10 and that’s about it. It is not a basis of Pakistani nationalism, it is just given as a reason of Pakistan’s creation in Pakistan studies. Nobody, and I mean nobody on any Pakistani street in any Pakistani city ever thinks of themselves as Indian or hates India because of TNT.

Pakistan is an Islamic Republic because – as the reason is given everywhere – it was created in the name of Islam. There is no deeper thought to it because the term ‘Islamic republic’ is an oxymoron.

Kabir
28 days ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Please just look at what is taught in Pakistani schools today.

I never took “Pak Studies” since I grew up entirely in the US but I know what’s in the course.

TNT is the entire basis for Pakistan. The whole reason we have Pakistan is because “Hindus and Muslims are two different nations that cannot live together in one country”.

This is the basis of Pakistani nationhood.

Right before Pahalgam, the Field Marshal made a speech that became very controversial in India. Basically, it was a reaffirmation of TNT.

So, with all due respect, TNT is the official ideology of Pakistan and Pak Fauj is the guardian of that ideology.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
28 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

>TNT is the entire basis for Pakistan.

TNT was the basis of Pakistan movement during the 1940s. Just like excess taxation was the basis of the US revolutionary movement. It is not relevant now and hasnt been for decades. Muslims got their state, and now that issue is resolved. We don’t hate Hindus and neither does PakStudies teach this.

The only reason we keep hearing about TNT from the military faujeets is because we claim Kashmir and they can’t morally claim it if they don’t pay lip service to TNT. We don’t even talk about other Indian Muslims now, or care much about Bangladesh now. The real reason for Kashmir is ofcourse geographical and water security.

Some of us may have some roots in that land across the border but for us just like an American is not British, we are not Indians, we don’t consider ourselves as Indians, and we don’t really think about India that much. However the Indian obsession about wanting to claim us, our land and our diverse identities is jarring and off-putting. We have been dealing with this obession online for decades, although in real life Indians sheepishly keep these weird fetishes of unity largely to themselves.

Kabir
28 days ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Let me just refer you to the following article:

“Enemies within and enemies without: The besieged self in Pakistani texbooks”

By Rubina Saigol

https://www.academia.edu/47164425/Enemies_within_and_enemies_without_The_besieged_self_in_Pakistani_textbooks

Agree with you that we are not Indians nor do we consider ourselves as such.

The Indian obsession with trying to undermine Pakistani nationality–which we have seen repeated examples of on this blog– is definitely off-putting.

Kishore Kumar
Kishore Kumar
29 days ago

“It is also how the world reads it, and on that ledger the result is not the one Delhi wanted.”

The world does not acknowledge America’s hammering of Iran either.

Drumf is not counting airplanes anymore in Iran. India has no leverage; Saab sells AEWCS to Pakistan and tries to sell fighters to India. France, Italy, and the USA have all sold weapons to Pakistan. You need sticks to accompany carrots. Arming Armenia is a good start.

“No Pakistani commentator across the spectrum treats Sindoor as a setback.”

Convincing Pakistanis is no metric at all.

Pakistanis don’t treat the Taliban comeback as a setback; they don’t treat Kargil as a setback; they don’t treat Siachen as a setback; they don’t treat losing thousands of square miles of territory in the western sector to India in 1971, of which India retained hundreds of square miles, as a setback; they don’t treak killing Akbar Bugti as a setback; they don’t treat Imran Khan being jailed as a setback; everything is always a masterstroke to them. They will get humiliated and owned most shamefully, and come out on the other side saying the most asinine things. This is a part of their national psyche.

Count their dead, and sneer when they find a new cope like a different outlook in life or something. There is no convincing Pakistanis, just hurt them far more than they hurt us.

Kishore Kumar
Kishore Kumar
29 days ago
Reply to  Kishore Kumar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJViJrPYTDc

Rejection of the scientific method, in simple words, not learning from repeated experiments, is the hallmark of Pakistan. For example, Imran is in jail, and Dar is back to currency manipulation games.

The only problem of equivalent scale in India is its suffocating and all-invasive religious life.

Kabir
29 days ago
Reply to  Kishore Kumar

The rest of your comment is pretty much typical anti-Pakistan animus.

But “Imran is in jail” deserves a response:

Imran is in jail for the Toshakhana case. He has been convicted of corruption.

Imran also incited his followers to attack Pakistan’s military installations. This is absolutely unforgivable. There is no reason–absolutely none– why a patriotic Pakistani should ever contemplate attacking core commander’s house. Even the contemplation of this is unforgivable.

Pak Fauj will never forgive May 9, 2023. Nor should they.

Imran picked a fight with Pak Fauj. As should be clear by now, anyone who attempts to fight Pak Fauj will lose and lose badly.

Your anti-Pakistan animus is clouding your analytical abilities.

Kishore Kumar
Kishore Kumar
29 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

Admin Note: the F-Bombs were a relatively minor infraction but glorying in the deaths of human beings is not.

We don’t agree with Kabir’s “worship” of the Field Marshall but the comment did warrant removal with relishing on the murder of Pakistani military personnel by BLA.

Last edited 28 days ago by X.T.M
BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
29 days ago
Reply to  Kishore Kumar

Admin Note: BB don’t bait otherwise it’ll be another 20 comments.

Last edited 28 days ago by X.T.M
Kabir
29 days ago
Reply to  Kishore Kumar

@XTM:

There is so much anti-Pakistan language in this comment.

This commenter needs to be warned about BP’s standards.

“Fuck Pak Fauj” is absolutely not acceptable.

If I am not allowed to insult the Indian PM, I will demand respect for my Field Marshal.

@Kishore Kumar:

“Imran is the legitimate PM of Pakistan”– No, he isn’t. Your assertion is factually incorrect. Imran was removed through a no-confidence motion in 2022. This is a normal part of parliamentary democracy.

Elections were held in 2024. Imran was in jail and not a candidate.

“How will you handle PTI?”– PTI doesn’t even exist as such. Those parliamentarians are part of “Sunni Tehreek” or some other party.

Pak Fauj will completely destroy PTI.

Whether you like it or not, the Fauj runs Pakistan. And anyone who gets on the wrong side of the Fauj very quickly learns what is what.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
28 days ago
Reply to  X.T.M

That is unfair tbh as did the first violation.

I was completely okay with follow the non interaction pact.

It was who violated it that day, replying to my posts and comments.

I am happy to go back to ignoring provided he does not reply to my posts and comments.

An example of Kabir initiating a conversation with me by replying to my comment –

https://www.brownpundits.com/2026/04/18/pakistanis-indian-muslims-with-sovereignty/#comment-131595

Last edited 28 days ago by Bombay Badshah
Kabir
28 days ago
Reply to  X.T.M

I am happy not to engage with BB.

Kabir
28 days ago
Reply to  X.T.M

We don’t have any objective polls. So there is no empirical way to determine that “half the population” wants IK released.

What is factually true that is PTI doesn’t exist as a party. All its parliamentarians had to join “Sunni Tehreek” or “Sunni Ittihad” or whatever it is called.

PTI is over. They cannot even protest outside. Pak Fauj clamps down on them like nobody’s business. PTI is restricted to social media.

IK can get out of jail if he apologizes to Pak Fauj and makes a deal. If not, he stays in jail forever. Pak Fauj has declared him a national security threat.

This is simply reality.

Last edited 28 days ago by Kabir
Kabir
28 days ago
Reply to  X.T.M

How so?

I’m not necessarily endorsing it.

The truth is that PTI has been effectively finished as a political force. They were protesting outside Adiala jail weekly to try to get IK released. But even those protests seem to have petered out.

The fact is that Pakistan is a “hybrid regime”. Pak Fauj decides who is in jail or not.

IK can get out if he apologizes and makes a deal. It’s his choice.

Mian Sahab made a deal and got sent to London with his health as an excuse.

I thought all the stuff about IK’s eyesight was a prelude to a deal but maybe not.

Kabir
27 days ago
Reply to  X.T.M

First of all, I don’t think India is really a “democracy” when it comes to Kashmir.

The state of Jammu and Kashmir was divided into two and split into union territories. This happened without the consent of the Kashmiri people.

Secondly, it is by no means my argument that Kashmir must become part of Pakistan. I would be all for a free Kashmir (Indian Kashmir plus AJK) if that’s what the Kashmiri people want.

But Pakistan’s internal issues are not really relevant to the argument either way.

Bombay Badshah
Bombay Badshah
28 days ago
Reply to  X.T.M

Difference though.

I am against Kashmiri separatists. Pakistani equivalent would be Baloch separatists (or Pashtun or whatever).

Imran Khan is an opposition politician. Rahul Gandhi would be his equivalent.

Separatism is a red line for ANY country – China, Russia, Turkey, Pakistan, Sri Lanka have all been a level of repressive to crackdown their separatist movements. Even Western democracies like the UK and Spain have been harsh at times in Northern Ireland and Catalonia.

I have no issues with Kashmiris doing whatever else they want – practice whatever religion, support whatever cricket team – none of my business.

Justifying jailing an opposition political leader and undermining democracy is another thing.

formerly brown
formerly brown
28 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

this was not a personal quarrel. Will the law approve of a convict’ s apology and set him free?
Looks very moghul indeed.

Kabir
28 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

@XTM:

Please remove or edit Kishore Kumar’s comment where he uses the “F” word for Pak Fauj.

Surely such language is not allowed as per BP standards.

https://www.brownpundits.com/2026/04/20/op-sindoor-was-not-a-pakistani-defeat-precedents-two-days-from-pahalgam/#comment-132008

Kabir
28 days ago
Reply to  X.T.M

OK.

I did include the link to the comment.

It seems to me that the “F word” is clear violation of Precedent.

https://www.brownpundits.com/2026/04/02/a-note-on-standards-from-the-editors/

Kabir
28 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

There is a precedent post on BP Standards:

https://www.brownpundits.com/2026/04/02/a-note-on-standards-from-the-editors/

Please read it.

Specifically this paragraph:

Pakistan is complex. India is complex. Every human society is, at its foundation, irreducibly complex.

Any comment that treats either as otherwise will be moderated; sometimes publicly, sometimes silently. We apply the sniff test: does it smell right, given the context? Given how tight our Editorship and Commentariat is, we will be judicious, as we have always been;

In my opinion, the “F word”–no matter in which context is used– is inappropriate on a blog that sees itself as an intellectual forum.

I will let XTM (the blog’s Admin) take the final call. I’m not going to be responding to you further.

I assumed good faith that you were perhaps not aware of the forum’s policies. But now that you are, please don’t do this again.

I am not afraid of the “kaala daala”. I’m an American national. No one can do anything to me.

Last edited 28 days ago by Kabir
Kishore Kumar
Kishore Kumar
28 days ago
Reply to  Kishore Kumar

Admin Note: Baluchistan is not Kashmir. https://www.brownpundits.com/2025/12/21/why-balochistan-is-not-kashmir/

Baluchistan is not even Kurdistan (its sister nation).

We want to now be precise.

Kashmir has a status in International Law. International Law still governs Geopolitics as far as we know.

Kishore Kumar
Kishore Kumar
28 days ago
Reply to  Kishore Kumar

Admin Note: in fact our Editorial Standards are extremely generous.

Don’t unnecessarily use F-Bombs.

Also if you are going to mention facts, like the unfortunate deaths of 1,200 Pakistani personnel, please do so in a sensitised way.

Even non-civilian combattants, of any country, have wives, mothers, children who mourn for them.

Let us embed “Insaniat” into all our discussions.

As an aside we have moved on from worrying about “quantity” of comments to “quality.” This is a new mini-epoch in BP in the post-24 era. We have been around for more than 15 yrs, we’ve kind of see the ebbs, flows, highs, peaks, dips and drops. We aren’t afraid of a “dead blog” as this occupies an important space, mainly where Indians & Pakistanis can have high-signal conversations (for the most part).

We don’t know anywhere else in the internet that this is happening on a systematic and sustained basis..

Kishore Kumar
Kishore Kumar
28 days ago
Reply to  Kishore Kumar

You do you.

Kishore Kumar
Kishore Kumar
28 days ago
Reply to  Kishore Kumar

Aine mein khud se hi guftagu karte rahe
khud hi sun kar wah kaha, khud pe hi marte rahe

Kishore Kumar
Kishore Kumar
28 days ago
Reply to  Kishore Kumar

Hum keh ke likhte hain, jaise jamaat saath ho koi,
Khud hi faisla, khud hi taali — yeh bhi kya baat hui!

Kabir
29 days ago

“Sea of colours, faith marks Baisakhi at Panja Sahib”

https://www.dawn.com/news/1993263/sea-of-colours-faith-marks-baisakhi-at-panja-sahib

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
29 days ago

Like I have said before, India got what it wanted out of Sindoor

  1. Shifting of Overton window with attacks on Pakistani military targets for the first time since 1971
  2. Suspension of Indus Water Treaty with acceleration of multiple projects

If Pakistan is happy with Pakistan being part of Trump’s schemes (Board of Peace/Hosts for mediation) in return for Trump saving their bacon during May (India was the one striking Pakistan, not the other way around), well win-win for all.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
RecoveringNewsJunkie
28 days ago
Reply to  BombayBadshah

Citing Pakistani ‘sentiment’ on Op Sindoor as ‘evidence’ of success/failure is…….. ridiculous to say the least.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
RecoveringNewsJunkie
28 days ago
Reply to  X.T.M

I think extrapolating ‘global perceptions’ from Pakistani narratives is ….unserious and not really supported by hard evidence.

Global perception… doesn’t really care about who “won” the Ind-Pak skirmish.

Honestly, it doesn’t really matter that much who wins the war of dueling ‘narratives’ in the larger scheme of things. But if we are going to attempt a serious discussion of it, than it should be driven by facts, not fleeting unsubstantiated perceptions.

Nivedita
Nivedita
27 days ago
Reply to  X.T.M

Pakistan won the narrative war and India won the war on the ground. Honestly as far as India’s concerned, that’s the one that matters to us as a country.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
27 days ago
Reply to  Nivedita

Let the Pakistanis keep telling themselves that ‘only crows and trees’ were bombed at Balakot. Or that a couple of planes lost by IAF while entire length and breath of Pakistan got Brahmosed with impunity is a ‘win’ for them. It doesn’t really matter.

What matters is that in clear non-verbal language, it was communicated to the kleptocrats in PakMil – attempts to use terrorism against India to further their agenda – domestic or against India, will carry explicit explosive costs going forward. That is as big a victory as any Indian would want from Op Sindoor. The rest is all social media cacophony, and utterly irrelevant.

Bombay Badshah
Bombay Badshah
27 days ago

Exactly.

The churan they sell their awaam is not what they know to be true.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
27 days ago
Reply to  Bombay Badshah

Look, we have a long historical record to demonstrate that Pakistanis find some sort of perverse benefit in openly denying historical reality and losses – This dates back to prior conflicts starting from 1965 and onwards.

Its a symptom of living under totalitarian regimes where the ‘truth’ is often inconvenient and bravado sounding rhetoric that conforms to the ‘official’ line is preferable.

Its ok. We should be empathetic to a degree.

Nivedita
Nivedita
27 days ago

Touché . The almost Stockholm syndrome (the people and the Pak army being the victims and kidnapper in perpetuity) that many exhibit is in fact a survival mechanism.

El Khawaja
El Khawaja
27 days ago

That’s a lot of cope and projection.

El Khawaja
El Khawaja
27 days ago
Reply to  Nivedita

India lost both the war on the ground and narrative war. The only people who believe Indians are other Indian nationalists.

Nivedita
Nivedita
27 days ago
Reply to  El Khawaja

You are welcome to your delusions. As long as the red lines work for us, you can continue to claim glory lol.

El Khawaja
El Khawaja
27 days ago
Reply to  Nivedita

There’s no point in claiming glory in war. Pakistan successfully defended itself and likely deterred any future misadventures from India. That’s all that matters.

Bombay Badshah
Bombay Badshah
27 days ago
Reply to  El Khawaja

It is Pakistan who starts misadventures.

India is happy with the status quo including Kashmir.

Calvin
Calvin
29 days ago

//Shias are quietly ostracised. Persian pride, across pre-Islamic, Islamic and post-Islamic registers, is astonishing in its depth. Some of us, the Baha’is for instance, integrate all three.//

Are Shia Iranians not proud of being persians? Even under the Islamic empires? And what does a post Islamic and Islamic register of persian pride look like?

//The rediscovery of Hinduism is coming, and it will come from South Punjab and Sindh.//

On this precedent, I dont know, tbh, as mentioned these are some of the earliest Islamized places in the subcontinent and many of the traditions that would have been associated with buddhism( many of these people in all likelihood were Buddhists, not hindus) have already been islamized. For instance Vaisakhi while associated eith Saraswati in other parts of India is associated with a sufi saint in punjab and this is by no means recent. Many other traditions that dont follow from persian or Turkic or Arab culture are already, Sindhi or punjabi based on historical processes.

If you are expecting them to identify more with Ramayan or Mahabharat, I am not so sure, the hinduphobia and association with India will be huge psychological barriers to this especially since in the next 30 years, India will have more control on the Indus River waters, leading to more animosity towards associating with India not less.

Kabir
29 days ago
Reply to  Calvin

Vaisakhi is seen as a Sikh festival.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaisakhi

YYZ
YYZ
29 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

Vaishakhi, Baisakhi, Bihu, Vishu. Same difference. Diversity can sometimes be confusing, even for Indians.

Kabir
28 days ago
Reply to  YYZ

OK. I will clarify that in Punjab Vaisakhi is primarily thought of as a Sikh festival.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
RecoveringNewsJunkie
28 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

>OK. I will clarify that in Pakistani Punjab Vaisakhi is primarily thought of as a Sikh festival

Fixed that for you.

Kabir
28 days ago

Don’t condescend to me.

Look at Wikipedia (Is Wiki a Pakistani site?) it goes on and on about Punjab and the Sikhs.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
27 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

Don’t try to take your frog in the well generalizations about what punjabis west of the radcliffe line think somehow extrapolates to the east of it as well.

Kabir
26 days ago

Again, look at Wikipedia. It’s not a Pakistani site.

Kabir
29 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

It’s also important to note that the Jallianwalla Bagh massacre happened during Vaisakhi.

YYZ
YYZ
29 days ago

Most Indians are deluded by propaganda into thinking that Pakistan is some minor military power. Truth be told, Pakistani Army have always held their own against Indian forces, despite being a smaller force, except in 1971. And 1971 was a setback for Pakistan because of the bravery of Bengalis.

Indians think they won OP Sindoor because they bombed some military installation of Pakistan, while Pakistanis downed some Indian aircrafts. But the world doesn’t see it as a fight among equals. Its truly David vs Goliath, in which Goliath is lazy, corrupt and indecisive.

Any fight/war/operation with Pakistan which ends in status quo at the borders is an automatic win for Pakistan because unlike India, Pakistan doesn’t care about loss of life, money or equipment as long as they can hurt India.

Indians need to come to the terms with the fact that Pakistani armed forces are better organized, outfitted and trained that Indian counterpart. There is a huge issue of corruption in IAF and MoD.

However, the main takeaway of OP Sindoor is not the operation or immediate geopolitics surrounding it. Its the suspension of Indus water treaty, which should have been done right after 2008 attack but better late than never.

India will reduce the water slowly over a decade or so. I have seen the math and a reduction of about 40% from current levels will permanently damage the ecology of Pakistan, rendering large parts of the country unliveable. The trick is to do it slowly and time it with the ongoing climate change events.

Last edited 29 days ago by YYZ
girmit
girmit
28 days ago
Reply to  YYZ

I get the frustration with the Pakistani state, but your remedy comes across a bit evil. Their ex foreign minister casually threatening nuking Delhi is also extraordinarily evil, and the world can be a dark tragedy and all, but turning the screws on common people seems a disproportionate response to even acts of proxy terror. Are you seeing this as preempting nuclear blackmail?

Last edited 28 days ago by girmit
YYZ
YYZ
28 days ago
Reply to  girmit

Au Contraire, I’m an admirer of Pakistani state and more so of Paksitani military.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
28 days ago
Reply to  girmit

Reminds me of this famous line from GoW.

Aad-chahe-jitna-bhi-bada-1024x709
Kabir
28 days ago
Reply to  girmit

Thank you. “Permanently damaging the ecology of Pakistan” is very extreme.

Naam de guerre
Naam de guerre
28 days ago
Reply to  girmit

What is evil or disproportionate when you are locked in an existential battle with an enemy whose raison d’etre is your dismemberment and destruction?

…but turning the screws on common people seems a disproportionate response to even acts of proxy terror.

So I suppose the killing of thousands of innocent Indians doesn’t count as turning the screws in your book?

Kabir
28 days ago
Reply to  Naam de guerre

Turning off Pakistan’s water is an act of war.

This is not a “threat”. It’s a statement of fact.

naam de guerre
naam de guerre
28 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

Please read my other comment on this thread – there is no turning off the water. The Indus and its tributaries aren’t a tap.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
28 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

Admin Note: don’t threaten war again pls; 10 comment fine.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
28 days ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Pakistan cannot “destroy” anything.

Pakistan’s missiles cannot penetrate Indian AD, as was seen last May. The S-400 is the top tier of AD. India are acquiring more as well as augmenting them with their own indigenous Kusha.Attack on civilian infrastructure is a war crime and there will be similar reprisal and Indian missiles unlike Pakistani ones do not have issues hitting targets in Pakistan (not that there should be attacks on civilian infrastructure in the first place).
Anyways, there will be neither hitting civilian infrastructure nor war.

Eventually a new agreement will have to be made taking into account the new realities. This is for people who are experienced in these matters, rather than internet commentators.

Until then, IWT is in abeyance and India has fast tracked projects (some of which will be commissioned this year) as well as started/revived new projects.

https://www.news18.com/india/iwt-paused-infra-fast-tracked-pakistan-irked-a-look-at-indias-projects-on-chenab-ws-kl-9888041.html

Pakal Dul HEP (1,000 MW): Being fast-tracked for a “non-negotiable” commissioning deadline of December 2026. Crucially, this is India’s first storage project on a western river, giving it the ability to regulate water flow timing into Pakistan.

Kiru (624 MW) & Kwar (540 MW): Both are run-of-the-river projects being accelerated. Kiru is targeted for December 2026, while Kwar is now set for March 2028.

Unlike what Pakistanis like to doom monger about, none of these projects plan to “stop water” but provide energy/navigation to Indian citizens, including Kashmiri Muslims (Wullar Barrage).

And multiple wars have already been fought over Kashmir. And considering despite all those wars, the LOC hasn’t shifted an inch (India actually got some territory in 71 as well as 84) there is no reason to believe a future war will change the status quo.

Kashmir and the headwaters of the rivers will remain Indian.

Last edited 28 days ago by Bombay Badshah
S Qureishi
S Qureishi
28 days ago
Reply to  BombayBadshah

Admin Note: stop threatening war

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
28 days ago
Reply to  S Qureishi

Hehe, yeah flying over Srinagar and still managing to hit nothing lol.

No amount of cope will change the fact that Pakistani missiles hit nothing and were all intercepted by Indian AD.

This is corroborated by international media/satellite images.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/05/14/world/asia/india-pakistan-attack-damage-satellite-images.html

But satellite imagery indicates that while the attacks were widespread, the damage was far more contained than claimed — and appeared mostly inflicted by India on Pakistani facilities.

High-resolution satellite imagery, from before and after the strikes, shows clear damage to Pakistan’s facilities by Indian attacks, if limited and precise in nature.

Satellite images of the sites Pakistan claimed to have hit are limited, and so far do not clearly show damage caused by Pakistani strikes even at bases where there was corroborating evidence of some military action.

No jets crossed the LOC/border on either side at any time. Both sides lobbed missiles from their side. Indian ones hit the target. Pakistani ones got intercepted.

India is already going ahead with the projects and Pakistanis will not/cannot even touch them.

What they will do after a few years is come back and sign a revised IWT, after discussions/negotiations on both sides. In all probability it will be even more in favour of India than last time due to the bigger power differential.

naam de guerre
naam de guerre
28 days ago
Reply to  X.T.M

We agree but they are the same point. I didn’t want to venture in to that for brevity but we really don’t talk enough about the costs (for both nations and the region at large) of Pakistan’s obsession with Kashmir and refusal to come to a durable peace. Imagine the peace dividend that could’ve been harvested by both sides if we were not so invested in hurting each other. The possibilities for cooperation are endless – from the Iran-Pak-India gas pipelines, to transshipment routes connecting India to Central Asia to tourism… but unfortunately a narrow minded approach to hurt India by all means will only hurt Pakistan more, as it has over the last 30 odd years.

For better or worse, there is significant change in attitudes of the general Indian populace in working with Pakistan. We realize that talks, track 2s etc have not yielded anything other than loss of even more innocent lives on our side of the border so now the gloves are off. Unless asymmetric warfare stops, nothing will change. Now this may include some symbolic moves like suspension of IWT (without any real world consequences for the time being) or more overt kinetic action, Pakistan’s recent rising star with US notwithstanding.

naam de guerre
naam de guerre
28 days ago
Reply to  X.T.M

I largely agree with you.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
RecoveringNewsJunkie
28 days ago
Reply to  naam de guerre

>Otherwise, Pakistan can continue the cold war forever.

Pak RW Patriots’s failure to realize that such attitudes spell doom for Pakistan’s future is an amazing act of hubris and self-harm.

Calvin
Calvin
26 days ago

Not just Pak RW, even LW are spell bound under Pakistani nationalism.

Bombay Badshah
Bombay Badshah
26 days ago
Reply to  Calvin

Pak “LW” is more right than most Indian RW as is evident by the commentariat on this site.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
26 days ago
Reply to  Calvin

careful now, else you will be accused of being ‘anti-Pakistan’ and get blanket banned from certain threads. 😀

Kabir
26 days ago

Passive aggressive.

Passive aggression is bullying.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
26 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

sunlight, is the best disinfectant. 🙂

RecoveringNewsJunkie
26 days ago

You do not get to decide how I choose to engage and comment on BP. You can continue to be petty and delete my comments on “your” threads without cause. Although I maintain that its quite illiberal and immature. But you do you.

I will also point out that you had the audacity to write posts which directly mentioned me, and misrepresented my perspective, while demanding that I ‘stay off of your thread’. Which is……qute something 😀

I reserve the right to engage with opinions, I am mostly agnostic as to ‘who’ is making said comment.

Get well soon. 🙂

Last edited 26 days ago by RecoveringNewsJunkie
RecoveringNewsJunkie
RecoveringNewsJunkie
28 days ago
Reply to  naam de guerre

Well said.

Pakistan and Pakistanis pay a far, far greater cost for sustaining a ‘cold war’ against India than vice versa. Not that India doesn’t. But its really a lose-lose. This is why every generation of Indian leadership has attempted to ‘make peace’ with Pakistan. 21st Century India simply has reached a point where it can do so from a position of strength and relative dominance.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
28 days ago

And the economic gap is growing leading to more strength and dominance.

Kashmir is “solved”.

Article 370 was removed and Kashmir was INTEGRATED.

Separatism is finished and terrorism is at an all time low.

India knows how to quell separatist movements – Khalistanis and the various NE separatist movements case in point.

Naxalite movement is also almost dead.

Nivedita
Nivedita
27 days ago
Reply to  Naam de guerre

+1

RecoveringNewsJunkie
RecoveringNewsJunkie
28 days ago
Reply to  girmit

“a bit evil”?

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
28 days ago
Reply to  YYZ

India’s aim is to build infrastructure for electricity generation and navigation for its own citizens, including Kashmiris.

Don’t think water reduction is part of the plan, at least not officially. Salami slicing can keep happening on the down low, if the powers that be have planned it that way.

Another fruitful goal is making Afghanistan Pakistan’s Pakistan. They are even more insane than the Pakistani Fauj and “don’t care about loss of life, money or equipment”.

Restoration of ties is a step in that regard.

As India keeps developing its own indigenous MIC, can do for Afghanistan what China does for Pakistan.

Project Kusha (the Indian equivalent of S-400) will be ready by the end of the decade. A few on the Afghanistan eastern border will do wonders for them.

Can keep giving them other goodies throughout the 2030s as India keeps developing them.

Bombay Badshah
Bombay Badshah
28 days ago
Reply to  X.T.M

The AfPak war decidedly went in Pakistan’s favour because of Afghanistan’s military backwardness.

That is exactly what I am talking about resolving as India’s domestic MIC keeps building up.

India with its domestic MIC can prop up Afghanistan the same way China does Pakistan.

Pakistan can hold its own against India to an extent because China who has developed a solid MIC can prop up Pakistan to keep India occupied.

Pakistan could bomb Afghanistan but not India simply due to India’s better air defense, a combination of Russian and Indian tech.

India is developing its own S-400 equivalents, the Kusha.

Afghanistan fielding a few of those means that such hospital bombings will not be able to happen.

And that “martial history” point is anyways moot and incorrect.

Wars fought on horseback have nothing to do with the modern era.

Also that “martial history” is Afghanistan’s not Pakistan’s. I mean the Durrani empire ruled over present day Pakistan.

Naam de guerre
Naam de guerre
28 days ago

Commentariat seems to be quite fixated on the IWT perhaps because of the symbolic value of it all. However, neither side should forget that humans don’t yet have the technology to significantly reduce flow of water downstream in any meaningful way. Unless India starts on a massive British Raj level canal building program to divert waters, all the water that currently flows to Pakistan will continue to do so. There may be some movement on the margins that may irk the Pakistani side but then again, we did give them one of the most generous upper riparian deals in human history and have received nothing but eternal Pakistani love and gratitude in return.

Kabir
28 days ago
Reply to  Naam de guerre

The IWT cannot be unilaterally abrogated. That’s illegal.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
RecoveringNewsJunkie
28 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

Lol, its already been abrogated.

Kabir
28 days ago

Once again, the legal position is that the treaty cannot be “abrogated”.

India can say what it likes.

“LOL”– your anti-Pakistan animus is showing.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
RecoveringNewsJunkie
28 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

>India can say what it likes.

And the facts on the ground regarding ongoing construction demonstrate that it is in fact acting along what was said and “it likes”.

But then again, denial and delusion is a coping mechanism. You do not have any facts to support your assertion that its “not abrogated”. Simply shrieking it over and over doesn’t count. Pakistan already tried ‘legal’ maneuvers which have failed.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
28 days ago

In the backdrop of the abeyance of the Indus Waters Treaty, the pace of construction of ongoing projects has accelerated. Additionally, the process for identifying potential storage projects has been made more proactive to maximise the utilisation of the balance hydropower potential

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/j-k/work-on-hydropower-projects-has-accelerated-after-iwt-abeyance-jk-govt/

Kabir
28 days ago

One side cannot unilaterally abrogate the treaty. That is illegal.

“Denial and Delusion”– Don’t you dare get personal with me.

Turning off Pakistan’s water is an act of war.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
RecoveringNewsJunkie
28 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

and to state the obvious, simply holding an opinion that disagrees with “Feudal ‘my family has chaffeurs for generations’ Kabir” does not make one ‘anti-Pakistan’. You do not embody Pakistan.

The sheer hubris and inanity of shrieking ‘anti-Pakistan’ every time your subjective opinion gets challenged, is tiresome.

Last edited 28 days ago by RecoveringNewsJunkie
Kabir
28 days ago

Again, do not get personal with me.

“Feudal”– My family is not feudal. Please look up what “feudal’ means in English.

I am descended from doctors, lawyers and civil servants. “Feudal” is misrepresentation.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
27 days ago
Reply to  Kabir

Its your attitude that’s feudal and parochial. You carry on haughtily as if to the “manor born” and get all flustered when your subjective opinions and perspectives get challenged, resorting to ad homimem silliness about educational credentials, humanities and so on. Its all a bit pathetic really. Very Dickensian in some ways.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
28 days ago
Reply to  X.T.M

India has stopped that.

Does flood warnings via the high commission but that’s it.

While water flows have not been fully halted, the move suspended key cooperation mechanisms, including data sharing and dispute resolution processes.

https://www.arabnews.com/node/2637052/pakistan

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
28 days ago
Reply to  X.T.M

These are all opinion pieces by Pakistanis “saying” something though.

India explicitly did warn Pakistanis.

India has to release waters or will have floods on their own end.

https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/climate-energy/india-releases-water-dams-warns-rival-pakistan-cross-border-flooding-says-source-2025-08-27/

El Khawaja
El Khawaja
28 days ago
Reply to  BombayBadshah

They did not, if anything, Indian military and intel officers like Goriv Arya were celebrating this on Indian national television. There’s a real bloodlust for Pakistanis among right wing Indians.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
28 days ago
Reply to  El Khawaja

Gaurav Arya is a media talking head not an “Indian military and intel officer”. He is retired from the military and does not represent the Indian government.

I have explicitly listed a Reuters source instead of an Indian one to avoid allegations of bias.

Here is another non Indian source.

https://www.arabnews.com/node/2612933/pakistan

“Real bloodlust for Pakistanis among right wing Indians” is in no ways related to flood warnings.

Last edited 28 days ago by Bombay Badshah
RecoveringNewsJunkie
27 days ago
Reply to  El Khawaja

citing an idiot like Goriv (sic) Arya is like Indians getting all worked up oveer some idiotic Pakistani TV moron talking about Indian actresses as ‘maal e ghanimat’.

YYZ
YYZ
27 days ago
Reply to  Naam de guerre

What if I told you that work is already in progress? I’m going to be visiting atleast 3 of these work sites with my friends in December.

And no, its not through canals. Well, not right now.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
27 days ago
Reply to  YYZ

What is it through?

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[…] positions in every thread. Sacred geography established the founder-institutional distinction. Op Sindoor established that the operation was not a Pakistani defeat. Precedents can also be reversed in […]

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