The memes reflected in our genes

By Razib Khan 109 Comments

One of the major findings from Narasimhan et al. is that when it comes to total ancestry, Brahmin groups are enriched in the groups which have more “steppe” ancestry than you’d expect (West Eurasian ancestry is a function of steppe + IVC). That being said, Narasimhan et al. could not find evidence that Brahmins are a monophyletic clade. What this means is that Brahmins do not descend from a common group of founders, but a heterogeneous ancestral population.

How can we reconcile the consistently higher steppe ancestry with the fact that Brahmins seem to have diverse origins?

I think the answer has to do with the social ecology of India and the Brahmin role within that ecology.

In the period between 2,000 to 3,500 years ago, there was considerable genetic and cultural heterogeneity within India. This heterogeneity and population structure were “broken” and reconfigured through significant admixture. For example, where Brahmins in Uttar Pradesh have 25-30% steppe ancestry, Dalits in Uttar Pradesh are closer to 5-10%. In South India castes such as Reddys also have steppe ancestry, in the range of 5% or so. This is indicative of the spread and admixture of steppe enriched people all across the subcontinent.

But the flip side of the spread of steppe ancestry is that steppe people themselves mixed with local groups. ~25% of the ancestry of Uttar Pradesh Brahmins is from indigenous “Ancient Ancestral South Indians.” This is above and beyond the AASI ancestry from the Indus Valley population (in contrast, the Jat Rors are ~10% AASI, and well above ~30% steppe). Brahmins in Bengal and Tamil Nadu are very distinctive from non-Brahmin populations, and in their overall genome more like Uttar Pradesh Brahmins, but, both populations clearly have ancestry from local groups (~25% of the ancestry).

The reasons for why populations lose their distinctiveness are straightforward. Endogamy is not perfect. But, I would hold that the cultural customs of endogamy are going to be more persistent and strict among ritual priestly castes. My hypothesis that the original Indo-Aryan populations were invariant in terms of ancestry fraction (steppe, IVC, AASI). But the non-priestly castes would not enforce endogamy so strongly, because their status was accrued and obtained through other means than ritual purity. For the Kshatriyas, for example, status is obtained through power and domination. For Vaishyas, it is through primary and secondary production. Both these groups intermarried with local people who were militarily and economically of high status. In contrast, there were no equivalents for the Brahmins, who were spreading a particular ideological self-conception.

This is not a universal explanation. That is one reason I allude to Jat Rors. But, I think it gets at why Brahmins stand out as being steppe enriched.

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109 Replies to “The memes reflected in our genes”

  1. So is the steppe % in Brahmins fixed more or less since the first admixture phase?

    By ‘First admixture phase’ I mean the one where they got their current IVC related and AASI related ancestry along with local customs. It could be also be a function of time and space itself.

  2. So is the steppe % in Brahmins fixed more or less since the first admixture phase?

    not fixed. endogamy slows down the inevitable. the inference from my hypothesis is that % steppe dropped faster in non-brahmin indo-aryans. in places like gangetic plain everyone become indo-aryanized through this mixture.

    the brahmins were more endogamous and so like Ashkenazi jews and xtian minorities in the mideast were much more insulated.

  3. “What this means is that Brahmins do not descend from a common group of founders, but a heterogeneous ancestral population.”

    So i dont know if it has to do something, but in UP we have classes of Brahmins, Kanyakubja , Srayupari etc. There are also a class of Brahmins in our area colloquially called farmer-brahmins, the lowest. The high class Brahmans dont marry with them because according to them, these farmers were never Brahmins to begin with, because the area (Bundelkhand) never had Brahmins and these farmers just got together and self anointed themselves as Brahmins.

  4. saurav, most brahmin groups are high steppe tho. even the ‘fake’ ones. bhumihar brahmin no different than up brahmin genetically for example

  5. I wonder what my steppe is. Did you get a chance to input the second round of the S Asian ancestry project people into the Reich like algorithm you made? First round results were interesting. I’d be in the second batch.

  6. Are there any Kshatriya groups in India that have historical continuity to Vedic times?

    AFAIK there are none. But I don’t know that much about this.

  7. “For the Kshatriyas, for example, status is obtained through power and domination. For Vaishyas, it is through primary and secondary production. Both these groups intermarried with local people who were militarily and economically of high status. In contrast, there were no equivalents for the Brahmins, who were spreading a particular ideological self-conception.”

    It seems that Brahmins in North India at least appear to have become a rather isolated community, centred around ritual status in villages, rather than being movers and shakers in the emerging urban areas. Kshatriyas and Vaishyas tended to do a lot better.

    At an all India level, the British gave the Brahmins a route back to prominence via civil service exams. After independence, Brahmins could have been more prominent, but perhaps their orthodoxies held them back, with non-Brahmin Hindus dominating cinema, industry and sports. But South Indian and Bengali Brahmins excelled in academia post-independence.

    Why have North Indian Brahmins been under performing for such a long time ?

  8. Are Jat Rors really only 10% AASI? Do they really look like they have 10% AASI? Also I’m surprised AASI is only at 25% in any North Indian group.

    Also what does this indicate about the relative distribution of AASI, IVC and steppe? And how common were people of each type?

    1. &Jatt_Scythian

      Razib’s referring to the AASI that they have in addition to whatever’s attributable to their IVC_periphery-related admixture in qpAdm.

      If we assume AASI is ENA, then Haryana Jats and Rors are around 15% AASI. So in general they actually are pretty close to being around 10% AASI.

      And yeah, they look “Caucasoid”, and their cranio-facial measurements don’t show any deviation at all towards the hunter-gatherer populations of Southern Asia and Australasia. So it shouldn’t be surprising that their AASI admixture is weak enough to not show up in their phenotypes.

      At the same time though, yes, they do look Indian. “Caucasoid/West Eurasian” and “Indian/ South Asian” are not mutually exclusive categories. You can look and be both at the same time. Iran_N probably looked very “Indian”, and no one’s arguing against their West Eurasian-ness. Even some living Iranians (who have very substantial Anatolia_N and Levant_N-related admixture) can look vaguely South Asian.

      The fact that they look “Indian” despite being 40% Steppe_MLBA + 5% Botai-like steppe probably means that the current north Indian phenotype range (the West Eurasian end of the spectrum) does draw in part from however the Sintashta/Andronovo people might have looked.

      The Sintashta people didn’t look like contemporary Western Europeans. Even with contemporary Europeans, you can clearly tell apart Lithuanians from English people.

      1. >40% MLBA + 5% Botai
        More like 40% MLBA + Botai. Around 36% Sintashta on average with around 4% *Tyumen kind of an input on average.

      2. It seems like 10-15% admixture of something is least likely to affect head shape and such like you said. But I think it probably does affect facial features and pigmentation to a higher degree.

    2. Rors are a good looking people, rarely not light skinned and sometimes with light eyes as well. I have never seen a Ror who was dark skinned; Jats yes, Rors no.

      1. Are you making that up? I always see Jatts and Rors say stuff like this so why is it so hard to find pics of people like this?

  9. Iran_N probably looked very “Indian”, and no one’s arguing against their West Eurasian-ness. Even some living Iranians (who have very substantial Anatolia_N and Levant_N-related admixture) can look vaguely South Asian.

    I’ve seen south Indian actresses who look like Iranian actresses. usually s Indian perhaps a touch darker. but the facial features of some high Hindus periphery groups are vaguely Iranian.

    The Sintashta people didn’t look like contemporary Western Europeans. Even with contemporary Europeans, you can clearly tell apart Lithuanians from English people.

    check their teeth 😉

    1. “check their teeth 😉”

      😂

      “I’ve seen south Indian actresses who look like Iranian actresses. usually s Indian perhaps a touch darker. but the facial features of some high Hindus periphery groups are vaguely Iranian.”

      I’ve noticed that too. There’s definitely a lot of phenotypic overlap between the Iranian plateau and South Asia.

      1. You’re really lucky there’s no Iranians on this blog otherwise you’d be getting hammered for that last comment haha
        If we had to guess what would we say the Neolithic populations of the extreme ends of the subcontinent looked like what would everyone guess?
        1. Burzahom
        2. Anywhere in the Brahmaputra valley/Assam
        3. Sri Lanka
        And just for curiosity sakes someplace boring like Jhusi.
        yfull has Y H at forming at 48500 ybp with some South Asians belong to clades as old as 35000 ybp(?) (and I think people had determined yfull could be underestimating by 10-20% based on the R1a-Z93 found in ancient samples)
        Regarding phenotype, if AASI actually looked like Onge , having just 10% of that admixture could easily make the difference between looking South Asian and West Asian. Pashtuns, Kashmiris(and Dards in general), Pamiris exhibit some phenotypes that wouldn’t look out of place in Iran or even regions further west. I’ve seen just one Jatt (and he was Punjabi) about whom I could say the same.

        1. Also I’m not sure how much the Indian look actually draws from Sintashta. I’m only 1/4 Jatt and I can tell you that my other three grandparents are actually lighter and more West Eurasian looking that my Jatt grandparent despite being from an ethnicity that isn’t really known for being high in the steppe component.

          I would imagine when referring to the West Eurasian end of the North Indian phenotype you’re taking about Northern Pakistanis and Kashmiris and not Jatos.

          1. yeah when you look up Haryana jatt agitation pics, barring some exceptions, most look very “indian”

            my girlfriend is punjabi, and at some brown parties I’ve gone to, people ask “are you jatt?” as some form of weird confirmatory thing. I am 100% not and I look extremely regular desi, but even I get asked that. It’s surprising because even young ones in cali and nyc areas asked that. They also ask, tbf, “are you S Indian?,” at similar frequencies. I am a generic brown guy. Basically S Asian looks overlaps are way bigger than people act like they are. The reality is most Indians look like Aajay Devgan and Kal Penn but people jump to Sunny Leone and Mindy Kaling, when they think of N vs. S. The reality is that neither of those looks is the bulk of S Asia.

          2. @Jatt_Scythian

            Sintashta and Andronovo we’re broad faced populations with “low” noses. They didn’t exactly fit the whole “sharp featured” complex that Indians often talk about.

            In the flesh, many of them probably looked somewhat similar to this actor (Lithuanian American)

            https://images.app.goo.gl/4AM41LkG5iDuSNDV9

            I’ve never met a Haryana Jat… but looking at pictures, they seem to have deep jaws (often squarish), broad faces, and prominent yet somewhat wider noses. Being around 40ish percent Sintashta makes sense.

            Kashmiris have some BMAC-related admixture, and Pashtuns are heavily BMAC-related. Kashmiris are peripheral South Asians, and Pashtuns are mostly Turanian (BMAC + Steppe).

            So no, I meant Jats and Brahmins.

            And 10% is certainly unlikely to be noticable. There are individuals at 25% divergent admixture who look like 75% of their genetic ancestry. 10-15% won’t leave much of an effect (unless East Asian admixture, because merely having the homozygous or heterozygous variant common amongst East Asians at EDAR can have noticable phenotypic effects like coarser hair and shovel shaped incisors).

      2. @Commentator/Seinundzeit, Thanks for addressing that “sharp featured” complex of the Indians. Probably a hangover from Greek times and/or romanticism centered around those features. I have observed that the Punjabi Jatts are much more “sharper featured” than the Haryana Jatts on an average and Punjabi Jatts are more Baloch/Caucasian (or InPe) shifted than their Haryanvi counterpart who are more steppe/NE Euro shifted as you have pointed out. All in all, populations that possess more of the “Caucasus” ancestry (Kashmiris, Parsees, Sindhis, Pashtuns, etc) look more western as far as the Indian POV for “westernness” is concerned.

        1. Here’s what 10% extra AASI likely does to your phenotype imo.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBr5sCKR4vs

          Also that’s what I was thinking in terms of Westernness of features. The Caucasian component is related to sharpness of features more than steppe_mlba. Although having a strong jaw and square face can be perceived as Western too. Explains a lot about my family (had a distant relative score about 19% Caucasian and 2% SW Asian). What’s the relationship between Caucasian and Anatolian farmer? It doesn’t look 1 to 1 but seems like there is overlap.

          1. I mean I have been told I have “refined” or “sharp features” with a gracile look, and I have no caucus. I think there is refinition from the iranic component of IVC as well.

          2. CHG and Anatolian Farmers separated 25kya, so there would be some overlap if both are used as source populations in a model I believe.

            Squared jaw can be associated with “westernness”, but having stayed in every zone of India, I’ve seen many lower caste/non-caste populations (likely less steppe) with very developed square jaws. To be fare, I’ve seen more non-Brahmins with square jaws than the opposite. No to sound racialist, the “Armenoid” type is definitely west Eurasian but at the same time are known to be weak jawed. Examples
            1)Toda
            https://www.google.com/search?q=toda&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwiyyrb3hr3pAhUD53MBHY8uBg8Q2-cCegQIABAA&oq=toda&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzICCAAyAggAMgIIADICCAAyAggAMgIIADICCAAyAggAMgIIADICCAA6BAgAEENQyZIFWMOYBWDmmwVoAHAAeACAAaYBiAG3BJIBAzAuNJgBAKABAaoBC2d3cy13aXotaW1n&sclient=img&ei=U0_CXvLUJYPOz7sPj92YeA&bih=969&biw=1920&rlz=1C1GIGM_enIN752IN754#imgrc=Dqvfrz0ZwicvOM&imgdii=-_QXveD97CHhlM

            2)This albino family living in Delhi. They are south Indian and likely non-Brahmin
            https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2111298/Meet-Indian-couple-children-set-new-record–worlds-biggest-ALBINO-family.html

            I wasn’t able to reply to your comment below for some reason (no reply link):-
            “Some of those are recent migrations though I believe. Sherpas for example separated from Tibetans in the last 1500 years. Sucks that they exist on our side of the Himalayas though. Luckily Indian ydna exists in SE Asia and even Tibet so we demographically fucked up their countries and gene pool too.”
            The Himalayan region had Tibetan like populations since the beginning, so on the contrary, it seems Indian/Iranian like populations encroached on their lands. There Gorkha invasion/migration did happen in the 1800s, but the recent discoveries in Chokhopani suggest material culture as old as 3000 y, not to mention they harbor very old YAP lineage D. In the admixture test below, this NPL-Chokhopani (Tibetan/NE Asian) like admixture is detected at significant levels among nearby non-Tibetans like Dards (Kho, Kohistani, Kalash, Kashmiri) at 5-10%, Dogra brahmin 5% , Khas Brahmin 8+% and among Burusho (as expected) at ~15%. Even plain Indians like Hindu Jats and Rors have it at noticeable amounts.
            https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rodW-JJ63C5ox7gaWnJxhWgyvWJs4WGyd_tB7UMMy50/edit#gid=977819834

    2. most S Indian actresses are high steppe imports from North. It’s a big critique of the industry down there. A lot Punjabi women act with S Indian male leads in kannada, malyalam, telegu and tamil film industry

      1. N-Indian actresses notwithstanding, there’s considerable variation in how South Indians look. There isn’t a single S-Indian look per se, it isn’t uncommon for some members of a single family to not look out of place in say Chandigarh and others in Colombo. Even within a single state, take Karnataka for example, there’s many different communities like Coorgis, Tulus, Gowdas, etc that represent a pan-Indian variation in looks and features (barring the NE, ofc).

        This is kinda obvious to those who’ve lived in India, and I’m not sure about how acquainted you are with this. Apols if this comes across as condescending

    3. I have noticed that the people from the Sistan and Baluchestan are the most south Asian-like Iranians in appearance.

  10. I think I look the most Hindoo aka pan S Asian. So I win the prize for Prince of the IVC

    1. There is lot of South Indian actresses too like
      Asin-Nasrani
      Aishwarya Rai-Bunt
      Samantha-half Nair/half Telugu
      Trisha-Tamil
      Rashmika Mandanna-Coorghi

    1. I thought she was Indian when I watched the movie (but the accent didn’t fit). Only after seeing the cast list (and thus seeing her extremely Iranian name) did I figure things out lol

  11. You’re really lucky there’s no Iranians on this blog otherwise you’d be getting hammered for that last comment haha

    there are some who comment. this blog gets thousands of visitors per day

    1. Iranians is a blanket term for many ethnic groups just like Indians isn’t it? I have seen Iranains with Turkish features, Asian eyes, Arab looking and even someone who could pass for Baniya (Gupta) from North India or Shetty from South India.

  12. I have no knowledge/interest in this genetics discussion.

    I just want to point out that burzahom < Skt bhūrjāśrama (a wood/forest of birch trees). In general, any Kashmiri -hom/-hama toponymic suffix is from Skt āśrama.

    (PS: My daughter's keeping me awake, and I am randomly posting Skt etyma)

    (PPS: Kashmiris do look a little like Iranians. This has led to some silly situations involving me in the past, and most recently my dad)

  13. Very interring Sein.

    I always thought Yamnaya was broad faced/dark pigmented whereas Abashevo/SIntashta/Andronovo were “Corded” like in phenotype and much lighter in pigmentation.

    It’s hard to believe that having 10-15% of Onge like blood won’t affect a phenotype but I’ll take your word for it.

    1. @Jatt_Scythian

      https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1563011011000122

      So…

      To use Indian terminology, Indus_perhiphery people (the ones between 70%-100% West Eurasian) and BMAC people had “sharper features” than Sintashta/Andronovo.

      Sintashta/Andronovo individuals often had what they used to call “Proto-Europoid” features. Big, broad face, broad/wide yet prominent nose, deep jaws, heavy brow ridge, etc. That sorta thing. So when looking at Jats, see if they fit the bill of having around 35%-45% of their genetic ancestry from people like that.

      1. they ranged up till 50% AASI per raghikiri. Narendea modi, low caste punjabis, and reddys are living relics of east eurasian end of IVC looks

  14. https://imgur.com/a/YrzTzPp
    I use myself as a benchmark of the most middling S Asian looks. From visiting India and seeing pics of other places, I don’t think there are many areas I can’t pass outside of S Asia, besides the fringes.

    I think IVC people likely looked like me. Because IVC is predominant ancestry in S Asia, I think that’s why people think I am always from their lands or tribe.

    I genetically cluster with ramgharia in NW, bania/vania in North, and Brahmins in the South. I am right in between pashtuns and low caste tamils. I am as center as it gets.

    H Y DNA k1a mt

    1. What’s a phenotype/ genotype post without pics..
      Can I propose that all commenters here post their pics (on imgur to be later deleted) + their S Asian ethnicity(ies) and DNA haplogroups/23andme ancestry composition if available.
      Thanks Warlock for taking the lead here.

      1. I am Prince of the IVC.The River Father is King of course. Hence, it is only natural I lead my people. I thank you for your fielty.

        1. I do agree that you have a very generic South Asian look. The only component not visible in your phenotype is the East Asian one which is seen in Bengalis with some frequency.

          1. probably. But enough Bengalis look like me too, maybe even like 20-30%. Bengalis have asked me in the past, if I am Bengali. I think I can walk around Dhaka and Kolkata and people will think I am a local.

          2. @thewarlock You can easily pass as native Bengali. I think 40% Bangladeshis have features similar to yours, another 40% have a more robust look. A substantial minority, around 10-15%, have visible East Asian influences.
            Many Indians thought me as Gujrati Indian, so the overlap between Eastern and Western parts of the subcontinent is very common.

          3. East Asian component is not restricted to Bangladeshis. East Asians flank the northern part of the subcontinent as well. It is commonly found in regions closer to Himalayas like Uttarakhand, Himachal Pradesh, J&K and obviously in the northern Pakistani regions.

          4. @Justanotherlurker, East Asian component is not restricted to Bangladeshis. East Asians flank the northern part of the subcontinent as well. It is commonly found in regions closer to Himalayas like Uttarakhand, Himachal Pradesh, J&K and obviously in the northern Pakistani regions. As a non-native staying in West Bengal and neighbouring regions for 10+ years, I haven’t seen any native west-bengali, the ones called “Ghotis” colloquially, to have noticeable E. Asian features. They kind of look like someone between Biharis and Odiyas. The only ones in WB that do show those features were almost always descendants of east bengali migrants.

    2. What is your cephalic index and bigonal width? MJD had 2 main types of populations- one which was dolicho-mesocephalic with a dry skull bigonal width of less than 90 mm on average while the other was a hyperdolichocephalic to low dolichocephalic group with a dry skull bigonal of 100 mm+ on average. The first group had a higher jaw angle while the second has a more horizontal chewing plane.

    3. Indic groups look similar enough, and so much is based on cultural stereotypes, that I think I actually can pass different regions, by choosing pics with varying hair, lighting and nerd-iness levels….

      North…
      https://imgur.com/gSBtFlq

      South…
      https://imgur.com/B5NKgID

      East…
      https://imgur.com/JS1icu1

      West…
      https://imgur.com/o8BvZ1e

      Never had DNA tested, but my grandparents are all from a single group / region afaik. So I have an approximation of what genetic split would be.

      Don’t think I have mentioned precise linguistic ethnicity or group here. Let’s see if the brown pundits crowd can actually tell which one.

      1. Sumit, Really hard to pin down but if I had to guess I’d rule out eatern India first. If I was pressed further I’d guess Maharashtra.

        You are right that most browns in India can pass anywhere in the country.

        1. @Justanotherlurker, It depends on what you call as east India. The easternmost Northeast Indian states, which are dominated by Tibeto-Burman tribes, is obviously different and that part is not considered East India. The native inhabitants of the east Indian states (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India) are pan Indian in looks. That being said, a good part of north India (Uttarakhand, Himachal Pradesh and Ladakh) can be excluded because of substantial east Asian looks the natives harbor. Examples:-
          1) https://www.google.com/search?q=harish+rawat&rlz=1C1GIGM_enIN752IN754&sxsrf=ALeKk00z-pQq2cVRztRfdo7aqpC4ewAdtw:1589710750131&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiP-7mE1rrpAhX6wjgGHYYhC0UQ_AUoAnoECBcQBA&biw=1920&bih=920
          2) https://www.google.com/search?q=neha+kakkar&rlz=1C1GIGM_enIN752IN754&hl=en&sxsrf=ALeKk03Zhc7hTFH3tQGZmnwo7t9ux6QKGA:1589711665483&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj56_a42brpAhXByTgGHbDpCqAQ_AUoAXoECCEQAw&biw=1920&bih=920

          1. Some of those are recent migrations though I believe. Sherpas for example separated from Tibetans in the last 1500 years. Sucks that they exist on our side of the Himalayas though. Luckily Indian ydna exists in SE Asia and even Tibet so we demographically fucked up their countries and gene pool too.

        2. Good stuff, all the guesses are accurate!

          I am actually very impressed, to be honest.

          My paternal line lived in Konkan / Mumbai for several generations and I think were part of the early migration from south-eastern Gujarat (which has a lot of historical links to the Konkan coast and Sri Lanka) to British run Mumbai during the 1800s for education and opportunity.

          Some have a Muslim title / surname ‘Amin’ from the Mughals(?), but from what I understand this is just a title and they are basically Hindu ‘Patels’.

          So i am thinking the split is ~10% steppe, ~50% aasi, ~40% ivc maybe?

          1. @Sumit
            tho the first pic you linked is gone now, but recollecting(nebulous) it now makes me think that your face resembles Siddharth Mallya’s upto a certain degree, albeit not sure(makes me wonder what ethnicity are mallyas, konkan?)

          2. Sumit:
            So are your folks Patils (many are ex Patels from Southern Gujarat from 200+ years ago) or identify as Gujarati Patels settled in Maharashtra?
            You are right about Amin being a title given by Gujarat Sultanate/Mughal Subedars to the elite among Patels – these folks were tax collectors, head of talukas, large landholders etc..Administrative officials..In true Indic fashion they consider themselves superior to other Patels and didn’t historically intermarry with them 🙂

          3. Just deleted the pics, idk maybe should have kept them up i am kinda paranoid about these things

            This guy ?
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sid_Mallya

            There is some resemblance. His father is konkan brahmin, his mother is muslim of some sort per wikipedia.

            Don’t know enough about genetics to say if he would also be similar in terms of steppe, IVC, ASI, mix ?

          4. ethnically gujarati to be clear. i just think there are similarities between south gujarat and maharashtra esp. konkan region.

          5. “Good stuff, all the guesses are accurate!”

            You have the ‘bhidu’ look of a street smart Surti.

      2. I’d put you somewhere from Gujarat or Rajasthan but as others have pointed out, it could be Konkan as well.

  15. yeah. you do look pan-brown. but i think I do too (my east Asian ancestry probably manifest in 1) zero hair loss at 43 2) I’m 43 and don’t look it 3) very little body hair).

    1. I have very little hair too for a S Asian,not really any chest or back hair. My dad is very hairy but my mom’s side isn’t. But my mom’s side has wet ear wax and my dad’s dry. Thankfully, I inherited the latter for that trait

    2. I also have very little body hair, one of my cousins, on the other hand, is the hairiest person I’ve ever seen.

  16. j2b2,
    Fathers side Jaffna Tamil
    “Supposed” to be direct descendant of the CinkaiAryan (AryaSinghe) Jaffna Kings. Documented in various place, including Culavamsa and Yapana Vaipava Malai.

    Mothers side, Old sinhalese, Tamil an European.

    In the US was rarely mistaken for Indian. Most often Caribbean/Jamaican. If I went to an Ethiopian Restaurant, they would speak in Amharic.

    23andMe analysis
    https://imgur.com/W7ZBoRI

    GedMatch: Harrapa
    I think (and hope) over 40% AASI
    https://imgur.com/x59aTiU

    My DNA
    http://sbarrkum.blogspot.com/2012/03/my-dna-01-heroin-addiction-smoking-etc.html
    http://sbarrkum.blogspot.com/2013/11/dna-and-skin-color.html

    Roper Lethbridge: Golden Book of India and Ceylon (1900)
    https://imgur.com/h6u0HUa

    Photos: Let me know if link works
    https://imgur.com/a/ef0jrRG

  17. “How can we reconcile the consistently higher steppe ancestry with the fact that Brahmins seem to have diverse origins?|
    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
    Which diverse origins? Any example? Which haplogroups, which language, which mythology? Maybe they brought some toponyms?
    The terms – West Eurasian, steppe, Indo-Europeans – are without any substance. Are they R1A? Which groups had R1A – 4000 years ago? Where they came from?

    1. Brown, kadamba and chalukya chronicles speak of migration of brahmins from ahichchatra. Not sure if these migrants were the root of the eventual migrations further south.

      1. girmit, thanks. during sandhyavandana samkalpa, the geological location is mentioned as south banks of Godavari. this means that the migration was through andhra lands.

  18. so it looks like Yamnaya was fully proto – Europid whereas Andronovo also had a (robust?) Med element to them in some areas.

    So Kashmiris look completely different from Punjabis because of minor BMAC ancestry but minor(to mid) AASI ancestry doesn’t affect the phenotypes of South Asia?

  19. Razib, there is no such category as Jat Ror, nor any such community. Jats and Rors have a mutual dislike and do not intermarry. Jats are indifferent to Rors and the latter somewhat resentful of the former. Rors. in fact. have deep identity issues; over the last couple of decades, some among them have been claiming a Maratha origin to match the reputation of Jats. If you use the term conjointly, to denote an identical genetic profile, that would make sense. but I do not know if that is so. The term Jat Ror is as accurate as say, Khatri Bania, both commercial classes in Haryana Punjab. If you put them together because Jats and Rors have the same dna type, then you can also speak in the same way of Khatri Jat or Jat Brahmin, in Punjab/Haryana at least.

    1. Jats and Rors are more similar than Jats and Brahmins are, about as similar as Punjabi Jatts and Khatris are.

  20. My hypothesis that the original Indo-Aryan populations were invariant in terms of ancestry fraction

    Since the original waves were Male dominant, they surely would have had to get local women to produce progeny in sufficient number and then these offspring would form the escalating chain of higher and higher Endogamic behavior in India.

    So were those who had less Steppe product of Rape and affairs(household slaves, etc) and More-Steppe offspring were with local women from local high-status houses? (if so then how does that work, those local High Houses would still have remained in some form to be relevant enough to marry with these so called Invaders/Migrants).

    All of this is not convincing & clear from the genetics alone. We need better Anthropological, Archaeological and Historical data. Like what was happening People-to-People over decades-centuries (not isolated-events). We can’t even make direct inferences because mindset/culture of the time might have been different.

    Isolated Jew populations around the world doesn’t work as fair analogy because these Jew populations aren’t considered Invaders/Conquest-leading group like its often attributed to Steppe waves.

  21. https://www.brownpundits.com/2019/01/10/are-haryana-jats-the-closest-living-descendents-of-our-vedic-forefathers/

    Just read that post. Is the visual at the end wrong? Seems like Jatts, Pashtuns and Rors are all 20% AASI from that visual. Even Pamiris have 15% according to that post? And only 10% Iran N in Jatts?

    Also I’m having some trouble grappling with the idea that there are populations with 45% steppe ancestry which is mostly male mediated? Barring weird founder effects shouldn’t they pretty much be close to 100% R1a?

        1. both. Are you pan brown looking? This may sound weird, but usually people who look pan brown seem more egalitarian with their views of browns like you. So just curious

          1. I would actually say no with regards to either skin tone or facial features. I think I fit better in the NW part of the subcontinent and Ulhasnagar lol.

            As you can see from my arguments above I think all South Asians look distinctivley South Asian even if they don’t look like each other if that makes sense. We have certain features that distinguish us from Iranians/Pashtuns/Dards/other West Eurasians regardless of how steppe some like some of us are.

        2. I agree. I just notice a trend of more steppe types behaving in a racially disparaging way online

          1. warlock you look good, how old are you btw? Congrats on completing med school!
            And keep lifting brownbro👍
            #BrownDoUEvenLift

          2. @Dheeraj

            I’m 26, but I have pretty neonatonous features, so people tend to peg me in my early 20s.

            Thanks. I have barbell with enough weights to get to 300lbs. I don’t have a bench or squat rack. So my quarantine has focused on volume pendlay rows, romanian deadlifts, conventional deadlifts, cleans, front squats, overhead press, and push ups/pull ups.

            My deadlift at the beginning of quarantine was 430 1RM, weighing a bit over 170. I was able to do 300×12 with the set I have as a starting bench mark. Now, I can do 300×16. So hopefully I have a 450 1RM. I’ve been running a lot more too and that’s help my work capacity with training a lot.

    1. They chopped up the ancestry in a very strange way in that paper. The MLBA wasn’t just Sintashta, it was other stuff as well and Iran_N + AASI isn’t the best approximation for the IVCp type ancestry as it is.

      1. Is that because of some sort of WSHG/ANE influence not accounted for in those populations?

  22. Hiiiii Razib, I am following your site daily, Your articles are really wonderful and interesting.
    I have one doubt Razib,
    Does Fst Distance between South Asians and Western Eurasians will increase a bit as Iranian related ancestry has been diverged about 15000 years ago or it will have no effect?
    Thanks Razib

  23. Canadian of Jaffna Tamil origin in Netflix series.
    I dont have TV or Netflix so have not seen other than a few clips on YouTube.

    She looks very very South South Asian, like MIA, i.e. Maya Mathangi Arulpragasam.

    Maitreyi Ramakrishnan: Born and raised in Canada though, so no physical connection! 15,000 people auditioned for the role! Different twist to the usual coming-of-age movies, because the protagonists are not white American!

    Never Have I Ever | Mindy Kaling & Maitreyi Ramakrishnan Celebrate Ganesh Puja Episode | Netflix
    https://youtu.be/jzVYRST0h3Q

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6zBP6QxQB8

    1. Saw an interview with her, smart kid, seemed very socially intelligent for her age. Can see why she got selected.

      I have a lot of respect for Mindy Kailing as well for creating the show.

      Overall the trailer reminded me of American Pie – but brown and female, and using actual teenagers as cast not ppl in their 20s lol.

      Not something I would watch tbh, but happy that it exsits.

  24. You have no Caucasus component whatsoever? I thought it existed at least trace amounts throughout South Asia. Guess there is genetic discontinuity there( due to the Thar desert?)

  25. I haven’t seen too many robust proto Europid like Haryana Jats either. Anybody have any examples?

    1. I don’t have a picture at hand but I can give you some measurements:
      -Bizygomatic = 170 mm
      -Bigonal = 135 mm
      -minimum frontal width = ~130 mm
      -forehead width = 150 mm
      -nasion-alveolar height = Between 70 mm and 75 mm
      -Total facial height = ~135 mm

  26. Also where did the idea that Yamnaya/Andronovo were Proto-Europid come from?

    https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/yamna_culture.shtml

    “According Kurts (1984, p.90), people of the Yamna culture consisted of three distinct phenotypes corresponding to the relatively recent blend between three populations. The dominant type was tall, dolichocephalic, with broad faces of medium height. The second type was more robust with high and wide Proto-Europoid faces. The third type was more gracile, with narrow and high faces of the East Mediterranean type.”

    1. Proto-Europid/Europid can mean many things. Ultimately there were 2 main subtypes: one with more of an unreduced Cromagnid tendency while the other had a reduced Pontid tendency. You could further divide the first one into multiple groups.

      1. I believe the Yamnaya were mostly of the broad unreduced variety whereas Andronovo and especially Scythians were some fusion of Nordid-CM with Robust Pontid and East Med types.

  27. 3000 yep isn’t super old? Did you mean 30000 ybp? These regions weren’t inhabited till 3000 ybp?

    They might be native to the highest mountains in the South Himalayan region but definitely not native to the Terai, Sivalik Hills or any part of the Indo-Gagentic plains. Also plenty of TB Nepali groups lack y D completely. This is the first I’m hearing of this admixture in Kalash and Kashmiris too.

  28. Didn’t meant to imply you said they were native there but that admixture in hilly and plains regions isn’t native to that region.

  29. There’s NO way we have that little AASI…it has to be the biggest component. It is AASI > Iran N > steppe in order of contribution. Maybe he’s not including the AASI found in indus_periphery as well

    1. I saw a run by DMXX which showed Punjabis/SIndhis as 22-30% AASI. Why does that differ so much from what is being discussed here?

  30. “Dalits in Uttar Pradesh are closer to 5-10%” — Some uttar pradesh SC jaatis like jatavs are more like 15%.

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