The 2020 Open thread spent a whole afternoon on whether vegetarian biryani, vegetarian haleem and vegetarian paya could exist. Saurav declared the abominations should be banned.
Qureishi extolled the centrality of beef in Pakistani cuisine. The 2026 thread relitigates the same question with Nihari as the exhibit and the Modi diplomatic menu as the provocation.
BB’s argument is that Mughlai cuisine remains Indian property because it is Indian restaurants that carry it globally; the Pakistani versions are cover songs, the originals are still in Awadh and Old Delhi. As BB speaks to the strength of Indian soft power, this comment by Ali Choudhury six years earlier perfectly illustrates it:
Our local Pakistani takeaway does not serve beef dishes partly because they have a fair amount of Indian Hindu customers who don’t want the cross-contamination.
We had guessed this independently. The complexion of Mughlai food in the diaspora, or rather traditional Indo-Islamicate food, is buckling under three constraints: no pork, no beef, halal.
So all restaurants peddling the food of the Indian Subcontinent will converge toward lamb, chicken and goat, the “speciality meat”, as the offerings of choice, with a vast array of vegetarian options alongside. It maximises the customer base, and it is fascinating to see how the syncretic culture survives, despite attempts to destroy it.
The thread and Homelands perform partition. The market and Diaspora quietly un-does it.
As far as my position goes:
I am not refuting the existence/quality of the Pakistani version of Mughlai cuisine. In fact, if they claim the beef versions, they are free to do so as they were the ones who popularized it and still consume it.
Food evolves in different ways in different countries.
The chai/biscuit is an Indian staple now but both were introduced by the British.
And sometime many people might prefer the newer versions.
I myself admitted liking lots of cover versions of songs over originals.
So while Americans can claim their version of pizza as their own – including all of the innovations like New York Style, Chicago Deep Dish etc as well as the brands – Domino’s, Pizza Hut etc, the “original” versions are still Italian – lighter on toppings, lighter dough etc like the Neapolitan pizza.
Similarly Pakistanis can claim their beef based re-imaginings post partition the “OGs” remain distinctively Indian – the versions which were developed in Mughal and Nawabi kitchens and which are still being cooked and eaten all across India, by Muslim and non Muslim alike – based on the royal lamb/goat.
thank you Humza for shifting the food convo here 🙂
I have been talking about cover versions without even referencing the ones that have been occupying my headspace for the past few months – Both Dhurandhar albums extensively use older songs and modernize it using rock, rap, techno etc.
Indian Muslim cuisine is mostly beef based and the BB and others are just coping if they think that its anything otherwise.
This is just soft Hindutva trying to justify persecution of Indian Muslim by proclaiming that Hindustani Muslim cuisine is more goat and lamb based. That way they can justify lynching Muslims for beef eating because “why else would they do it otherwise except to offend?”
Secondly I think its a bit rich for vegetarian Hindus to be claiming the Islamicate cuisine especially dishes which originated in North India. You guys are welcome to share it, no problem, but stop telling us you own it and when you literally ban it, while we are the ones who actually eat this every day.
Thirdly, the point is this: Indians trying to feed foreign diplomats a full Jain vegan course with no option otherwise. If a Chinese or Vietnamese menu for Indian diplomats was full of dog and snake meat with no vegetarian option for vegetarians, it would be considered offensive. When you invite guests at least feed them properly. But ideology I guess is more important.
Imagine this is how ideological they are with foreigners, one does not need to imagine how they are with Indian Muslims.
Jain food is delicious.
People are allowed to say whatever they like.
BB is making an audacious broad tent of Indian culture.
Regardless of what is, the original core Indo-Islamicate population are now in India. The salariat moved en masse at Partition but the vast did stay back.
Two separate strains of the same culture is evolving.
This is not just my philosophy but the philosophy of the founding fathers. That you could be Indian but you could you be everything else too. They are not exclusive identities. And while this idea has been tested many times, it still is the official position of the republic. At least, as of now.
And that is the reason the “necks held”.
The Mizos whose capital was bombed by the Indian government are now proud Indians with zero insurgency with the former insurgents running the government.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizo_National_Front
Punjab and Assam now hold IPL games to full crowds.
Pakistan adopted a different philosophy. In your words, they grafted the Mughlai inheritance onto the Indus. Hence they lost the Padma.
Agree with this. The extreme elite (nawabs, nizam, landlords) stayed back as did the poor. The middle class did shift. But considering the economic trajectories, especially post Indian reforms I wouldn’t be surprised if the Muslim middle class in India has already surpassed Pakistan. Of course, unless there is another Sachar report, can’t say that for sure. But the overall gap is growing.
“Pakistani” Muslim cuisine is beef based. It became beef based post partition when they replaced goat with beef due to low cost. It is you Pakistanis who are coping because it shatters your pretense and exposes you as the “cosplayers” you are. It’s like The Emperor Has No Clothes. I have no issues in pointing out that the royal livery you pretend to wear is not there.
I am not vegetarian as 80% of India isn’t. That is more than 4x the population of Pakistan. And I eat both beef and pork.
It is neither banned nor have people stopped eating it. It is eaten all across India by people of all religions as well as outside India where Indian chefs/restaurants are spreading it (to non desi audiences as well). The original versions, that is. You “actually” eat the “cover versions” which is fine. You can claim ownership of that.
What does this even have anything to do with Pakistan?
Beef is not banned?
Its a state issue. Almost every state allows buffalo slaughter. South and eastern states usually allow slaughtering bulls additionally, with a certificate needed if its under a certain age. And Kerala, WB and several northeastern states are even less restricted and allow younger bulls and cows to be slaughtered.
A few points
Check this out btw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67A435-V0uw
Beef is cow meat and no Pakistani do not consume more buffalo meat than cow meat, as I’ve stated bachiya meat is considered the ideal in Pakistan
Beef (cow meat) is banned all across India including the Muslim majority territories of Jammu and Kashmir. Try to rephrase beef as bull or buffalo meat is a sneaky attempt on your part but funnily enough even Indian diaspora restaurants don’t even serve that either.
Hey, like I said – instead of an anecdote give me proof. @girmit has given an opposing anecdote if we are doing anecdotes now.
ChatGPT doesn’t seem to support your claim
Are you going to accuse Indians of now manipulating AI regarding beef vs cow share in Pakistan lol.
Like I said, give me an opposite query.
It isn’t. Cow meat is available in West Bengal, Kerala and most of the Northeastern states. That is nearly 150 million people.
Again false and anecdotal.
I like giving data instead of just doing anecdotes.
So here in your home state of Texas, the only Michelin star Indian restaurant Musaafer (No Pakistani restaurant has a Michelin star in the world btw).
It’s website clearly states it is an “Indian” restaurant so no claiming it.
And here is the menu.
https://www.musaaferhouston.com/_files/ugd/058839_680fe1f26ea6403f8e2202d194d4dc79.pdf
I will attach a screenshot as well.
Since you only use LLM’s, here you go
The claim that Pakistan’s meat supply is “mostly buffalo” and that consumers or butchers “don’t distinguish” between cow and buffalo meat is factually incorrect and ignores the biological, economic, and regulatory realities of the country.
1. The Population Data (Fact-Checking the “Mostly Buffalo” Claim)Nationalist anecdotes often rely on the historical stereotype that Pakistan is only a “buffalo economy.” Modern census data proves otherwise.
2. Biological and Market DistinctionsThe idea that “common butchers” don’t distinguish between the two is a biological impossibility in a professional setting. They are distinct products with different price points.
3. Culinary Standards vs. AnecdotesWhile the commenter cites “friends from Karachi” preferring buffalo for Nihari, this is a specific preference for texture, not an industry standard.
4. Addressing the “AI” ArgumentAppealing to a general AI prompt is a “fallacy of authority.” AI models trained on older datasets may generalize, but they do not override real-time government census data.
If an AI says “most milk comes from buffalo,” it is correct. If it says “most meat cattle are buffalo,” it is outdated. Using AI to justify a lack of local knowledge doesn’t make the claim true; it just confirms the user hasn’t looked at the 2024 Livestock Census.
The distinction between cow and buffalo in Pakistan is not a “Western” specialty; it is a foundational element of the local economy. From the stark difference in fat color (yellow vs. white) to the 11 million-head lead cows have in the census, the “undifferentiated” narrative is a myth.
……….
As for that restaurant, never heard of it – I guess michellin is just handing out 5 stars like candy now
Give me the query like I said. I have given all of mine lol.
Just because you haven’t heard of it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Or should it be can’t “afford” it lol?
And it did prove your point wrong – Indian diaspora restaurants are very much offering cow dishes.
How much are you going to cope by deflecting.
Another one offering beef dishes. One Michelin star in NYC.
Focuses on cuisine from your favourite Dravidian regions.
https://www.semma.nyc/
Was even featured on Bon Appétit. Now are you going to say you don’t know what that is?
My reply was to the food not being banned, not beef. The original goat/lamb based versions still exist.
And since @girmit clarified that Pakistan mostly consumes buffalo which I confirmed, even that is not banned and we have our own “cover versions” in India too.
The diversity of meat we get in India is exceptional. Beef, pork, duck, camel, teetar, a whole universe of marine fish and shellfish from shark, manta ray, to beautiful varieties of anchovies and mussels… and then you have all the freshwater fish and crabs ect. Even our goat and sheep have so many varieties given the specialized heritage breeds unique to each region in a country so large (in karnataka we have the famous bannur tagaru, which is a stout and fat ram) You don’t even need to search far in a city like Bangalore to find a Naga restaurant serving pork and snails or smoked bison (gaur). The idea that we are limited for options or that meat eating is niche here is uninformed.
I think most of the interaction Pakistanis have is with vegetarian North Indian right wingers so they extrapolate it to the rest of the country.
My breed of secular atheist non-vegetarian Dhurandhars is not someone they see much. I am more Tharoor than Yogi.
They mirror each other ways that neither would be willing to admit 😁
In a way, I irk them more.
Instead of rejecting the Muslim heritage I embrace it in all its complexity, warts and all.
Instead of being offended by beef, I eat it.
Takes away their ammunition.
Indians in America are from all over and they’re mostly vegetarian from my experience or only eat chicken if any meat at all. Most of the Indians I know are from the south.
No they aren’t. There are plenty of articles, maybe even on this site about how lopsided Indian immigration is.
https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/indian-immigrants-united-states-2024
Most Indian immigration is upper caste Hindu (which correlates highly with vegetarianism).
Apart from that also very regional. Gujarati wave earlier (who are very vegetarian across castes), now Telugu (Although Telugu middle castes are non-vegetarian including Kamma, Kapu, Reddy etc).
India is very very non vegetarian. I have given actual stats.
You extrapolate small selected diaspora to the much larger home population.
Using that metric, if you were Canadian you would think majority of Indians are Sikh when they are barely 2% and concentrated in one state.
India is very vegetarian and is actually notorious for it, many are even vegan from the ones I know. Pretty much all of the Indians especially the Telegus you mention are vegetarian, I don’t know why you’re arguing this when its literally the most common “fun fact” about your country. You can’t slaughter people for eating beef or transporting cattle but then get offended when we say India is a nation of vegetarians.
It literally isn’t. I have even given statistics regarding it.
You yourself have admitted “from the ones I know”.
Because it isn’t?
As far as I understand, most of the “beef” in pakistan is, like in northern India, actually buffalo. Buffalo is legal to slaughter in heart of the so-called cow belt. So you will get the beef versions of these dishes in awadh, bhopal and other towns known for islamicate gastronomy. I’d also like to add that a contender for being a place with the best “mughlai” food is Kolkata. The biharis and awadhi muslims migrated in large numbers in the colonial era and in terms of sheer quantity of mughlai restaurants, it seems greater than either Delhi or Lucknow. Moreover, the local hindus are not vegetarians, so the patronage base is not sequestered. Also fwiw, both buffalo and normal beef are widely available in Kolkata. Higher end, “prestige” awadhi restaurants in India, the sort that are in 5-star hotels may not have beef, but the best nihari places in town all use buffalo. I’ve even heard that buffalo is preferred for nihari over normal beef. As one goes deeper into the deccan and south india, beef biryani becomes common, as its much cheaper than sheep or goat.
As always Spectacular Comment – off the scale signal
That’s not true. Pakistanis mostly eat cow meat more than buffalo meat, although it is common but on a per capita basis cow meat is more popular and bachiya (veal) is considered premium meat. Buffalo meat isn’t called beef, it’s called carabeef, which isn’t ideal for nihari although might be different in your ends.
Most of the dairy cattle in Pakistan is buffalo, and that is your supply. Common butchers in Pakistan and also where I am in India, don’t distinguish buffalo and cow meat. Specialty butchers that cater to a more western crowd do because they offer cuts in the western way, like short rib or tenderloin ect. Friends of mine from Karachi are ones who have stated their preference for buffalo for long braising stews like nihari, and cow meat for things that cook for shorter times on the tawa.
No, most dairy cattle in Pakistan is cow – buffalo is a close second. Butchers in Pakistan and Pakistanis in general to differentiate between different types of meat and different types of breeds and cuts, we’re meat eating culture so yes butchers do know the specifics. I’ve never heard anyone claim that buffalo meat is good for nihari, this is the first time hearing about that, usually veal is preferred.
Q: Do Pakistanis consume buffalo more or cow more?
A:
In Pakistan, buffalo is generally consumed more than cow (cattle) in terms of beef supply, though both are eaten.
Here’s the practical breakdown:
🐃 Buffalo (more commonly consumed for beef)
🐄 Cow (cattle beef)
😀
Again you extrapolate your own personal anecdotal observations to an entire country.
Since you love Chatgpt slop answers, here’s a rebuttal
The assertion that buffalo meat is the primary beef source in Pakistan relies on outdated agricultural tropes. When looking at modern economic shifts, livestock populations, and consumer trends, the claim that buffalo “dominates” the market is easily debunked.
1. The Statistical Reality: Cattle Outnumber BuffaloThe most basic flaw in the “buffalo-first” argument is the population gap. According to the Pakistan Economic Survey (2023-24), the cattle population stands at approximately 57.5 million, while buffaloes trail significantly at 46.3 million.
2. The “Modernization” Debunk: From Dairy to FeedlotsThe idea that Pakistanis only eat “spent dairy buffaloes” is an obsolete view of the industry.
3. The “Qurbani” Volume SpikeAny analysis that ignores Eid-ul-Adha is fundamentally flawed. During this period, millions of cattle are slaughtered in a 72-hour window.
Give me the query.
Let me see what pops up when I put it in.
Even after putting in “Qurbani consumption” in the query it does not show cow overtaking buffalo.
Just put that whole paragraph into your preferred llm. Relying on LLMs is hillarious when Pakistanis are telling you themselves we eat cow meat and we love beef and we’ll continue to eat it no matter what. In spite of that you still got debunked and owned by an LLM.
I just did. Copy paste in ChatGPT. Whole paragraph.
Guess what it spat out? You are the one getting owned and debunked by an LLM (attaching image as proof).
In fact, I am beginning to suspect that paragraph you added isn’t even an LLM answer but manually written by you in the style of an LLM. 😂
Your argument raises some valid points about structural changes in Pakistan’s meat industry, but it overstates the case that cattle beef has overtaken buffalo as the dominant beef source. The reality is more nuanced.
1. Cattle Numbers ≠ Beef Output Dominance
It is true that Pakistan now has more cattle than buffalo overall. According to the latest livestock estimates, cattle are around 57–58 million while buffalo are around 46 million.
However, livestock population alone does not determine beef production.
Buffalo in Pakistan are:
A smaller buffalo population can therefore still produce a very large share of total beef tonnage.
Also, a significant share of Pakistani cattle are:
So “more cattle” does not automatically mean “more cow beef.”
2. Feedlot Modernization Does Favor Cattle — But Mostly at the Premium End
You are correct that Pakistan’s modern commercial meat sector increasingly favors cattle.
This includes:
The Gulf and Chinese export markets often prefer younger cattle beef because:
But this sector is still relatively small compared to Pakistan’s total domestic meat economy.
Most Pakistanis still purchase meat through:
In these traditional channels, buffalo remains extremely common because:
So modernization is shifting the balance toward cattle, but it has not fully displaced buffalo nationwide.
3. Eid-ul-Adha Does Temporarily Flood the Market With Cow Beef
Your Eid argument is one of the stronger points.
During Eid al-Adha:
This absolutely increases annual cattle beef consumption.
However:
The rest of the year, the routine commercial slaughter system still matters more for baseline meat supply.
So Eid narrows the buffalo advantage considerably, but probably does not erase it entirely.
4. The Most Accurate Conclusion
The old stereotype that “Pakistanis mainly eat buffalo because cows are rare” is outdated.
But the opposite claim — that cattle clearly dominate Pakistani beef consumption today — is also probably overstated.
A more balanced characterization would be:
So Pakistan is probably transitioning from a historically buffalo-dominant beef system toward a more mixed cattle–buffalo beef economy.
And this works one way only? When Indians tell you that they are mostly non-vegetarian, you claim that they are vegetarian? And unlike the Pakistani beef argument, data (and LLMs) actually support it.
You are the one getting owned here.
He has no first hand experience, so has to rely on LLMs which are feeding him wrong information. I must repect the shamlesslessness for just repeatedly being wrong and still keep going at it. 😛
Conversing amongst yourselves won’t make your lies true lol.
Shamelessness is what Pakistanis do when evidence is so against them.
Mughlai Indian cuisine is lamb/goat based. Beef was for poor people. Pakistanis adopted i post 47 due to cost considerations.
Pakistani beef is majorly buffalo based which is also available in India.
These are “facts”.
LLMS aren’t feeding me the “Wrong information”. The “wrong information” is what you believe.
Like I said, give me statistics in reverse.
I know it hurts the Pakistani ego that everything they hold close is actually Indian but that’s the way it is.
No one asked them not to have an Indian style model of maintaining the local languages as well as well as enjoy their own local cuisine of saag, daal etc.
Also BB please drop this topic now. You haven’t done yourself any favours and now you’re going to have surrender this discussion topic entirely (you can’t touch on Pakistani or troll on Islamicate cuisine any longer).
That is the cost when you cross the line, despite explicit & repeated admonishments not to. Sorry along won’t cut it.
Pakistanis 1 at this point and alas you lost the match with your antics. The “Pakistanis” don’t go around snooping IP addresses and locations etc.
It’s a bit in poor taste to claim how much Pakistanis love eating that which is sacred to Hindus tbh..
In fact that is the reason why beef flourished in Pakistan and not in the “original” dishes.
Like you said, when the cuisine was being developed – apart from the Persian influence, because the areas were Hindu majority, they just didn’t kill cows.
Akbar even prohibited cow slaughter.
Apart from cheapness compared to lamb, having no Hindus to offend meant it was adopted pretty much wholesale.
Yes, Wajid Ali Shah was exiled to Kolkata and brought the food over.
His direct descendant runs a Mughlai restaurant there.
Didn’t know about beef in Pakistan being mostly buffalo too lol.
@girmit
The beef meat consumed is Pakistan is mostly cow. Buffalos are more cherished for their milk (they usually give 4 times as much milk with more cream) so they are not eaten as much. I would say almost 90% of the milk consumed in the country is buffalo milk. The traditional chapli kababs are made of buffalo meat and probably in the villages of Punjab in the canal colonies, they may be eaten more. But buffalo is lean tough meat which is not desirable to eat. Most other meat in the cities is cow meat – especially young cows.
It may be true that the beef consumed in India is mostly buffalo due to the ban on cow slaughter, after all India is the largest exporter of bufalo meat. However historically buffalo meat wasn’t as popular in India either due to their dairy producing utility as well as inferior meat status.
Yes, it has always been goat/lamb meat – the meat of the royals.
Beef, whatever variety has always been inferior.
Ain-i-Akbari (1590): This key text, part of the Akbarnama by Abu’l-Fazl, lists recipes from Emperor Akbar’s kitchen. It classifies dishes into categories such as meat-free, meat-and-rice (biryan), and meat-with-spices. The meats listed are explicitly lamb, sheep, kid, and fowl, with no mention of beef.
Alwan-e-Nemat (17th Century): This, along with other manuscripts from the time of Jahangir and Shah Jahan, focuses on rich preparations of goat and lamb, alongside poultry and game.
The Mughal Feast (Nuskha-e-Shahjahani): A modern translation of a 17th-century Shah Jahani manuscript shows a massive variety of rice, meat (lamb/goat), kebabs, and sweets, but continues to omit beef.
Like I say, cosplaying.
The royals probably didn’t want to offend their Hindu ministers slaughtering and eating cow in front of them, so they hyped up lamb/goat.
I don’t even know why you are telling me what Mughals liked, Akbar was eating Jain food 3 days a week, and Aurangzeb was vegetarian but that didnt win him any popularity contests.
But the “mughlai” cuisine is not used to refer to what the emperors ate, it is refers to the Mughal era when these foods became popular amongst Indian Muslims. Most of these dishes are Islamicate, often invented for the palettes of Muslim Nawabs in Awadh, Bengal or Deccan and widely adopted by the salaried classes.
Seriously you embarrass yourself arguing over something you don’t understand and arguing it with people who have been eating beef for generations.
Bufalo meat is not good. It’s lean and chewy and does not do well in anything but mince. Goat meat is pretty lean too, nothing to write about. And lamb/sheep is tender and fatty but often has a gamey flavor that cannot be hidden, and this flavor is not liked by many people – especially South Asians.. especially in places where beef is widely available (South Asia, USA etc). Beef, especially Veal is objectively better than most of these meats.
Afghans & Persians would disagree bien sure..
Lamb is the king of meats for us. Beef kebab Koobideh just tastes strange.
Yes, what I find is that Afghans and Persians love lamb because of its gamey flavor, not inspite of it. This is the deal breaker for many Indo Pak eaters who don’t like gaminess.
I often cook & also grill meats on BBQ, so when cooking for guests, I rarely buy lamb because if it has even a little but of gaminess, then people won’t eat it and the dish will be a flop. I find that grain fed lamb is better and grass fed the worst whereas Afghans would usually say the opposite.
BB: “My breed of secular atheist non-vegetarian Dhurandhars is not someone they see much. I am more Tharoor than Yogi.”
I’m sorry? When did Shashi Tharoor ever threaten to “infiltrate” Pakistan and hold a gun to someone’s head?
Shashi Tharoor is a consummate gentleman. One can disagree with his political views but that fact remains.
On another note, this putting things into ChatGPT is not a good look for a blog that aspires to be an intellectual forum.