The Delhi riots


Please comment on the riots here, and not the “open thread.” I don’t personally know what’s going on for what it’s worth….

(and it’s sorry that for browns in 2020 this is not surprising)

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177 Replies to “The Delhi riots”

  1. Delhi riots now attracting major attention. Kugelman, Sethi, Narang, Ayyub, and Barton all confirming what looks to be early stages of pogrom against Muslims.

    RSS numbers continue to be swelled by busses bringing in Hindus from neighboring districts. Police fully joining in on the carnage. Multiple mosques and Muslim homes now confirmed looted and burned. Horrifying videos of bloody Muslims being dragged through the street, beaten sensless, and forced to chant Hindu slogans.

    As as happened with previous attacks on minorities, Indian gov silent, while their surrogates repeating unverified accounts of temple attacks and Muslim instigated violence.

    1. “RSS numbers continue to be swelled by busses bringing in Hindus from neighboring districts. ”

      Just curious , is this a Pakistani trope? Like bringing people from outside to attack. I hear it on Pak channels on Kashmir as well , where similarly its said India is bringing RSS people to valley. Not army but specifically RSS people. And that too in buses.

      Or is it a subtle majoritarian-minoritarian syndrome. Something similar like muslims are minority but Hindus still have to bring in overwhelming numbers (of course thru buses) to attack us, because they weak.

      Very interesting

      1. Its being reported by reputable journalists. A RSS guy even gave an interview where he describes being picked up and brought to Delhi.

        Indians call any news that makes them uncomfortable Pakistani trope or conspiracy. International media have observed this bizzare compensation technique, and its frequent use has further trashed what little credibility Indian media had.

          1. I object strongly to this characterization. I disagree with INDTHINGS on a lot of things. In particular, I think that his rhetoric about “false flag operations” is doing harm to the cause rather than helping.

            On the other hand, it is unsurprising to see some of the Modi apologists on this thread attempting to downplay the violence and quibbling about whether these qualify as “riots” or as “pogroms”. Communal violence has engulfed the national capital (that too at a time when the President of the United States is visiting). Imagine the (rightful) outrage if such violence had occurred in Islamabad during a hypothetical Trump visit. People on here would be calling Pakistan a “failed state” and worse. Time to introspect about the deeply fascist forces unleashed in your own country. I commend Numinous for his realization of the nature of the “malevolent government” and his willingness to call a spade a spade.

          2. ‘In particular, I think that his rhetoric about “false flag operations” is doing harm to the cause rather than helping.’

            Good that you said this before anyone else. He refuses to believe any wrong done by Muslims anywhere. He went to extent of defending the grooming gangs. And keeps yammering about Indian media credibility and fails to understand that his credibility is down the drain due to this habit of blaming everything on false flag and conspiracies even when he has a legitimate concern.

            ‘On the other hand, it is unsurprising to see some of the Modi apologists on this thread attempting to downplay the violence’

            I dont consider myself a Modi apologist neither I am downplaying violence. Most referred to it as appalling since beginning and I personally think whoever responsible irrespective of religion should be punished.

            ‘Imagine the (rightful) outrage if such violence had occurred in Islamabad during a hypothetical Trump visit. People on here would be calling Pakistan a “failed state” and worse’

            I personally feel the Indian state failed to control this.
            But just for curiosity do you think that this is the other side of coin where India gets judged for being secular and Pakistan can be branded to be failed state for being theocratic and non functional democracy?

          3. There are people on this thread who have said things like “could have been orders of magnitude worse though. Let’s hope for a speedy end to the affair”. If that is not downplaying violence, I don’t know what is.

            Communal pogroms are unacceptable anywhere even in non-secular states such as Pakistan. Violence against anyone simply because of their identity should be a non-starter in the 21st century. But such violence is especially unacceptable in a country which is constitutionally secular and takes pride in being the “world’s largest democracy”. Indians really need to introspect about the forces they have unleashed in their country. Pakistan is striving to get out of the anti-minority ethos of the General Zia dictatorship while India seems to be rapidly going in the other direction. Pakistan’s experience shows that once such forces are unleashed, it is very difficult to put the genie back in the bottle.

            Btw, Pakistan is not “theocratic”. Most of the country’s laws come from the British code which the subcontinent inherited in 1947.

          4. My god Kabir…will you quit your shrieking and anathematizing to pay attention for one second?

            I was making a statement of fact. This is bad. It could have been a LOT worse. That is obvious to anyone with a minimal knowledge of Indian history.

            It’s all fine to pontificate about how communal disorder is unacceptable…but it’s happening anyways, and it’s going to keep happening to some degree.

          5. “This is bad. It could have been a lot worse”. Doesn’t sound exactly like a condemnation.

            Pogroms will keep happening if they are encouraged by the ruling regime. They are not inevitable.

            Sadly, it is not surprising to many of us that Delhi 2020 is happening on the watch of someone who was responsible for Gujarat 2002. But the bhakts are going to find a way to downplay this as well.

  2. Mutual stone-pelting and arson events. So far 13 dead, many more injured…could have been orders of magnitude worse though. Let’s hope for a speedy end to the affair.

  3. There is a shoot at sight order. Hopefully it will be over soon.

    Still this is unfortunate for this to happen in capital city.

    Need to investigate and punish responsible ASAP.

  4. Like the Ayodhya temple issue, the opposition keeps on dragging the issue , spreading total misinformation about the proposed law among Indian Muslims and using them as a cannon fodder in their fight against the BJP govt. Indian politics is very dysfunctional.

  5. @Razib: Some problems are sadly intractable…it is easier to imagine an India colonizing Mars than an India with intercommunal harmony. The best one can do is manage and mitigate the problem as it arises.

    1. Intercommunal harmony is possible by building a truthful and powerful narrative for India instead of leaving it in the hands of elitist commie leftist gang.
      Permanent intercommunal harmony in the subcontinent can be achieved by converting people back to Indic religions or by inspiring them for adopting Indian method of pursuing religion.
      In absence of Arabic connection all of brown skinned people would realise that they are actually related to each-other and can transform this part of the world into most powerful and prosperous.

      1. Forced conversions of people back to “Indic religions” is a fascist idea. India was created as a secular state by its founding fathers, including its tallest leader Pandit Nehru. It is extremely disheartening to see so many Indians advocating for their country to turn into a Hindu version of Islamic Pakistan.

        Also, while you are posting one-sided accounts of violence against the police etc, also note the destruction of a mosque in Ashok Nagar:

        https://thewire.in/communalism/delhi-violence-mosque-set-on-fire-in-ashok-vihar-hanuman-flag-placed-on-top

        1. ‘Forced conversions’ ?
          Ha ha ha….
          Couldn’t you think of something more honourable?
          If I as a ‘Hindu’ would advocate forced conversion or indoctrination then what would be difference between Hinduism and Islam?
          I want to change people’s perception about religion in the subcontinent which I believe is only possible through Hinduism though Hindus also need to wake up.

          Atleast you now accept that ‘other side’ exists.
          As for the riots it’s clear that they have been orchestrated by colloboration of high-profile anti-India forces. Although they used Nasir and Irfan gangs as forefront and supplied weapons to them but these petty gangsters don’t have the guts to stand against the state on their own.
          The death of IB officer is also being linked with an AAP leader.
          My only worry is even though IB already knows real culprits but they would not be able to prove it in the court in the absence of proper evidence.

        2. I’m not really concerned with who started what. In any case, the failure of the police and government of the national capital to control the situation is shameful.

          If this was happening in Islamabad, you all would be condemning Pakistan as a failed state. Rather then blaming Islam, you should introspect about the kinds of communal and fascist forces you are supporting.

          1. You better stick to subject matter next time.
            There are legal technicalities which maybe related to Delhi police’s lack of activity.

    1. Razib, Omar – My post on this thread seems to have been lost in the moderation pile 🙂
      Please approve

    1. It turns out that Pinjar Tod was heavily involved in peddling commumal propaganda and the people of his neighborhood has complained that he was forcing them to join the ‘protests’ due to ‘RSS’ ‘goons’.
      Good for the residents for showing awareness and not joining the paranoia.

  6. To all Modi government apologists:

    We have indeed had many riots over the decades, most being back-and-forth retaliations between Hindus and Muslims (either community having started it).

    But what’s happening now is entirely the consequence of actions taken by our malevolent government (I don’t use those words lightly, and I wouldn’t have used them before Modi’s re-election, but facts have changed, and so have my opinions.)

    I don’t see a satisfactory conclusion anytime soon because I see this as closer to being a pogrom than a “traditional” communal riot. Middle class Hindu India now seems to be convinced that Muslims are the enemy, or an existential threat, or (most benignly) pests who keep rioting at the drop of a hat. Much of our media is dominated by propaganda that keeps feeding into peoples’ paranoia.

    1. Wouldn’t calling it pogrom a bit much though. I mean we have had more people dieing in even more one sided attack, but haven’t necessarily described as pogrom. Just my 2 cents.

      1. I’d say “pogrom” implies one-sidedness and a lot more casualties than we have had. Here we have mutual violence and fortunately relatively few dead so far.

    2. When both Hindus and Muslims are getting killed, and the first murder was of a Hindu by a Muslim, calling it a pogrom smacks of a “Hindu lives are disposable, every Muslim life is valuable” outlook.

      1. Both Hindus and Muslims were getting killed in the 08 Mumbai attacks as well, very unfair I think to place blame on solely Muslims.

        “the first murder was of a Hindu by a Muslim”

        There is as much evidence for this as there is for cow urine curing cancer. Uncoincidentally, there is a large overlap between supporters of each theory.

        1. It has literally never occurred to me to respond to a Muslims’ claim saying “There is as much evidence for this as there is for 72 virgins being awarded to a Jihadi martyr. Uncoincidentally, there is a large overlap between supporters of each theory.” May be I should adapt that and enrich my rhetorical tool kit.

        2. ‘Both Hindus and Muslims were getting killed in the 08 Mumbai attacks as well, very unfair I think to place blame on solely Muslims.’

          If you had paid attention then you would know that Muslims were not blamed. Blame was on Pakistani terrorists. Only in your mind is everything Hindu vs Muslim with muslim being good guys. Give it a break

          Also very disturbing attempt to compare a well documented terrorist attack to a communal riot. This shows how much can you bend backwards to justify the most heinous acts from one side

  7. An even sadder thing is that this hindustani nonsense will poison the rest of the country. The idea that we should believe there are some pro-caa vigilantes acting in good faith and with honor in that city is ridiculous.

    1. What’s up with u S-Indians hating on Hindustani.

      u don’t like a bit of Ganga Jamuna Tehzib, cmon bro, everyone likes that

      1. Lucknow is fine, Delhi and its environs have to be the most gritty, low-trust, socially toxic places i’ve ever had to make myself familiar with.

      2. Much is made of the Ganga Jumna tehzib. It is a local phenomenon of little interest to those who live outside West UP, and, let us not forget, it was responsible for the partition of India.

        1. Ganga-Jamuni tehzeeb was not responsible for the Partition of India. In fact, Partition destroyed the Ganga-Jamuni tehzeeb. Qurratulain Hyder’s works are evidence of this.

        2. I am always curious as to who came up with that word though. And why Ganga-Jamuna, and not something like Mathura-Agra (Hindu city-muslim city) to portray co-existence. Both Ganga and Jamuna are “Hindu” rivers, don;t know what muslims get from that term.

    1. India often gets a free pass because it is a poor, brown country.

      The American president is held to a higher standard, because America is (correctly) viewed as a far more competent and civil country.

      I consider this to be a form of soft, well intentioned, bigotry against Indians.

      —————-

      As an extreme example of the bigotry of low expectations:

      Consider the Christian missionary who was murdered last year as he was trying to preach the gospel to the Sentinelese in the Andaman Islands.

      No one in the west or in India was mad at the Sentinelese for murder, not respecting freedom of speech, religions etc.

      This is because the Sentinelese are basically a stone age un-contacted tribe. We don’t expect any civility from them, and in fact our protective instincts kick in.

      ———————–

      Indian commentators sometimes complain about a double standard vis-a-vis Pakistan on religious extremism, as if it is a bad thing.

      It is not. It is a sign that the world expects more from you, and its a sign that you are starting to arrive on the global state.

      Maturing from a coddled child to an adult in the world’s eyes.

      Hopefully the riots and divisiveness are just teenage rebellion.

      1. “Hopefully the riots and divisiveness are just teenage rebellion”– Majoritarian mobs are attacking minorities while being supported by the forces of law and order. Police supposedly told a mob to “go ahead and throw stones” at Muslims. These pogroms are a direct result of the communal forces unleashed by the Modi regime over the past few years. Prior to 2014, when he was campaigning on “vikas”, there were those of us who questioned if someone who was involved in the Gujarat pogroms of 2002 could change his stripes. It is very unfortunate that we have been proven correct.

        This type of violence would be condemnable anywhere but especially so in a constitutionally secular state.

  8. United States Commission on International Religious Freedom (the official federal government commission) issues alert, condemning the “deadly mob violence targeting Muslims”.

    International figures continue to weigh in, condemning targeted violence against Muslims. A number of prominent Indian figures are also joining in, and seem especially shocked at the level of complicity by the Delhi police (Muslims and Sikhs of course have known this for decades).

    Some Indians of course continue to live in their “both sides” bubble, but you can never succeed in educating people who pretend to be dumb.

    1. Dude give it a rest. None of us are impressed by what foreigners and leftists have to say, because we’ve known the narrative they want to project for years now.

      Very rarely will they outright lie about stuff happening. Oh no, it’s much more insidious than that. They pick what parts to emphasize and what parts to omit, to the point that Pehlu Khan is a household name and the last mainstream article on cattle smuggling was in…2013 I think?

      The problem for them is that we have social media now, and we can cut out the middleman. You see a few videos of Muslim mobs throwing rocks and assaulting a police bus with no apparent provocation, and you realize that reality is much more complex than the article.

      1. 😂😂😂 Thanks for providing an example.

        If its international figures condemn India, they are “Foreigners”.

        If its Muslims, they are, “Islamists”.

        If its Hindus, they are, “Marxists”.

        Hindu Nationalists have truly emulated Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy in training their robots to neatly categorize and discard all information that doesn’t come from the party.

        “You see videos of Muslim mobs throwing rocks”

        Videos which have no verification behind them, and when examined, are often found to be fabricated (from years ago in a different situation, if not a different country), or misleading (leaving out a large Hindu mob who started the fight across the street).

        1. Hahaha…we have literally dead and injured policemen, so apparently we do have the sequelae of the alleged acts.

          But anyways, we won’t change each other’s minds. Tribal epistemology is fun! Just know that guys like you are responsible for a lot of it.

          1. Dead and Injured policemen? The same policemen caught on VERIFIED film joining RSS mobs, looting Muslim homes, burning Mosques, and forcing Muslims to chant Hindu slogans as they beat them?

            Congratulations to Muslims for defending themselves against such policemen, hopefully they can take a few more down.

          2. If you’re operating under the impression that all involved policemen and paramilitaries are part of Hindu mobs, then it seems there’s no purpose continuing this conversation. Based on the article posted below (that you apparently didn’t read) it appears some were doing flag marches and patrols when they were acid-attacked.

        2. “If its Hindus, they are, “Marxists”.”

          Can Hindus (or any other denomination) be marxist though? That i think is an important question

    2. we are all friends bhai. Relax and have some chai like abhimanyu. All will be calm soon

      and lmfao Sikhs have a lot of power rn. BJP sucks up to them a lot and Bollywood literally portrays them as 300 type spartan master race. they are well represented in every sphere of society. only people who raped and killed them at max were “secualrs” in 1984 and Muslims of NW during partition

      the leftist islamist alliance always tries to falsely reinvigorate radical Khalistani movement. Perfect example Jimmy S in Kaneda who is buddies with terrorists aka air india bombers and poster boy for socialism there

      1. Well lets not too carried away. Sikhs are all that and more in India, but in 1984 there was real cleavage b/w the 2 communities (which does persist today). Yes things have moved forward, but lets not forget the lessons of 84. To not abuse the social relationship b/w Hindus and Sikhs, lest it revive the K-movement in India.

  9. Sharjeel Islam(the face of Shaheen Bag protest) whose dream is to cut chicken’s neck from India and make there a sharia paradise for eternally ‘peesecuted’ muslims and who got support from JNU Teachers’s Association(here one proof of Islamist-leftist faction in India) might have link with Baddrudin Ajmal the head of AIDUF(formed mainly by illegal Bangaladeshi) and a member of Indian parliament.

    http://www.opindia.com/2020/02/sharjeel-imam-met-badruddin-ajmal-himanta-biswa-sarma/

    Not too surprising because a well educated man can’t be brainwashed to this extent without involvement of a heavyweight.

  10. If someone doesn’t know anything about Seelampur area of Delhi(I’ve been there many times) then I should clarify that it has undeclared sharia ruled pockets and many streets are unsafe for women to walk by even in day time.
    Some posters here might soon come with fake claims that Seelampur residents are being hounded.

  11. Here this older news for the people whose minds has ability to have empathy for people beyond their tribe.
    During a pro-CAA rally Islamic terrorists of SIDPI tried to attack Tejasvi Surya but were caught.

    The anti-CAA protests have been very ‘peaceful’ since day 1.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.firstpost.com/india/bengaluru-police-arrests-six-sdpi-members-for-attacking-rss-worker-in-pro-caa-rally-terror-module-planned-to-target-bjp-mp-tejasvi-surya-7923351.html/amp

    Though media outlets didn’t think it was an ‘important’ news. Apparantly life attempt on a young MP doesn’t count because he belongs to BJP.

  12. Most heart-breaking of them all is this murderous mother.
    She brought her infant to the protest site in Shahin Bagh and the infant died due to cold.
    Lo and behold the mother believes that she has given ‘Qurbani’ of her kid and somehow media made out that it’s fault of Modi/BJP/RSS.

    The stone hearted lady returned to protest and community celebrated death of tiny ‘Shaheed’.

    If this isn’t mental sickness then I wonder what is this? Theses people don’t even care for their kids.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.timesofindia.com/city/delhi/delhi-infant-dies-after-catching-cold-at-shaheen-bagh-mother-to-return-for-protest/amp_articleshow/73907167.cms

    In a normal country parents will be behind the bars for their crime.

  13. I was a bit unfair in accusing Numinous above of not caring about Hindu lives, because it doesn’t look very much like the Hindu commenters here are about Hindu lives either (a la what Razib said about Rotherham). So many Hindu commenters seem only interested in attacking Muslims while trying to sound sober.
    Perhaps it owes itself to a fundamental difference between Hinduism/Hindutva and Islam/”Islamtva” – Muslims primarily care about their own community (and rightly so), whereas elite Hindus never care about their own people, and Hindutva is just a reaction against (real or perceived – let us not go there) Islamic threat.
    So in some sense one can’t blame the westerners either – the westerner sees the Muslim fearing about their lives, and the Hindu trying to criticize Islam. No one ever puts in the westerner’s mind the idea that Hindu lives and Hindu human rights are also at stake, and so understandably the westerner thinks of only what the Muslims face as a serious issue. To be charitable to some Indian liberals, this may be what they are doing too
    FML.

    1. BJP has changed that. Relative rise in lower caste support is what gave them their election. Hindus now have a pattern of caring for their community as a whole more. But yes, a big part of that is the RSS painting radical Muslims as an existential threat.

      Hinduism is like a confederacy, much like the Afghan tribes. When no one is around, Hindus engage in tribal warfare. But, in recent history, Hindus have started to get their act together and actually confront enemies, including state actors like Pakistan and terrorists groups, in a more united fashion.

      1. @warlock – most of it just seems consolidation against Muslims as opposed to consolidation for Hindus. I see a lot of Hindus throwing around the pictures of and reports on rioting Muslim mobs, such as that Shahrukh guy with a gun etc., but very few listing out the names, details and photos of the Hindus who are killed (I did find out some names, but had to search a bit to). Therefore westerners and perhaps some of our own westernized folk think that everything is going swell for Hindus.

        I see some “geniuses” on “trad twitter” even justifying that attitude saying that whining suggests weakness. Apart from that hiding weakness can be damaging (as I believe is currently the case), weakness is what gets currency in the west, at least if you buy Tom Holland etc.

        Perhaps more Hindus should stop shouting and start whining.

    2. Problems have their roots in the ‘book’. That’s where wise people need to strike. Besides Islamists are same in every part of the world.

      I’m waiting for reformation of the Islam.

      May mother Aditi take jihadis in her protection.

      On the serious note Hindus have centuries long experience with Islam(which sets them apart from west) and they have memory of loosing most of their territories to this cult. Besides west still being a Christian dominion is much more hostile to pagan polytheism than one book-one God religion. That’s why they don’t feel affinity towards Hindus.

    1. Meanwhile Delhi Police : Damned if they do, damned if they don’t

      In last few days one police officer died, one DCP is in critical condition in hospital, other 50 are injured and a handful of them got acid and boiling water thrown over them.

      If they would try to curb the voilence then media and ‘human right’ organisations would sue and demean them like they did during Jamia violence. If they would become bystanders then media would again smear them with dirt.
      Meanwhile if someone would pelt stones in my neighborhood then I too have to defend myself with the sticks.

  14. Muslims have asabiya and a strong religious framework that guides them on conflict with other communities and on advancing their interests. Hindus are just winging it. Presenting to you without comment, the summary of a Twitter thread from today :

    A Muslim from Belgium ( probably Arab origin) started a thread lamenting the fact that Mughals treated Hindus as Ahle Kitab ( and charged Jaziya) instead of treating them as proper polytheists and giving the option to convert or leave. If they had done what the Quran asked them to, we wouldn’t be seeing the current oppression of Muslims in India. Dozens of Muslims piled onto the thread agreeing with him and adding their own laments and suggestions. The OP doubled down and added a third option (as specified by the Quran) for Hindus in the Mughal era: “to be killed”.
    Among the several dozen comments I read, there were a only a couple of dissenters – one disagreed on practicality grounds ( wouldn’t have been possible to do, Hindus were too numerous) and another on humanitarian grounds.

    One commenter, named Shafiq (likely our own Brown Pundit) commented something to the effect: Muslims, when in minority show their Mecca face, and when in majority show their Medina face ( those familiar with Mohammed’s life story will know what he meant)

    1. Family of IB associate Ankit Sharma has alleged that AAP leader Tahir Hussain is involved in murder of their son.
      Though it’s unconfirmed but people are claiming that stone pelters were using Tahir Hussain’s building to target policemen.

      https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.republicworld.com/amp/india-news/general-news/delhi-family-of-ib-officer-who-was-found-dead-alleges-aap-leaders-in.html

      Not too surprising if AAP leaders’s involvement turns out to be true because last year when a muslim mob desecrated a Hindu Mandir in Delhi’s Hauz Kazi, an AAP MLA named Imran Hussain was present in the mob.
      https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesnownews.com/amp/india/article/row-over-aap-minister-imran-hussains-presence-amidst-mob-that-vandalised-temple-in-delhis-hauz-qazi/447749

      Few days ago a person named Kapil Gujjar who fired two shots on Shaheen Bagh protetsors was also member of AAP. Although earlier media was advertising him as a ‘Hindu terrorist’ but his pics with AAP leaders have been circulating since then on the social media.

      https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesnownews.com/amp/india/article/row-over-aap-minister-imran-hussains-presence-amidst-mob-that-vandalised-temple-in-delhis-hauz-qazi/447749

      As usual most of media(special foreign) will keep it’s mouth on these incidents.

    1. These gangs were heavily involved in paddling fake news through whatsapp and twitter to create a full-fleged communal riot throughout the country(I suspect some of their customers are also in this thread).

      There must have high-profile masterminds on their head.

  15. Looks like we’re up to 23 dead. Not good, but at least the increase over the day is fairly low.

    I feel bad for the powers that be that need to end the protests. Use a light touch, and then people accuse you of negligence (and focus on bad actors within the police)…and this might happen. Use an aggressive intervention, and people start screaming about “authoritarianism.” Damned if you do…

    1. Yes they would always find a way to blame the police and the government.
      If you follow major Indian media outlets then you would notice how major news channels were involved in fanning riots and creating communal divide by very biased reporting.

      I feel extremely sad for the victims. I hope these miscreants would be heavily punished. The rot is deep rooted.

  16. UN and International Human rights agencies also issue condemnations. Unofficial body count figures feared to be much higher than India is admitting. Reports continue to come in describing most of the Hindu terrorists as out of towners, brought in by BJP and RSS officials.

    The stark divide between how the world (and even the respected journalist/academic class in India) is covering this story, and how the Hindu-Right and their twitter trolls see it, is startling.

    Analogous to Balakot Fiasco, where international investigations found India to have missed their targets completely, while India was claiming hundreds of casualties, dismissing the former as a ISI conspiracy.

    Such theatrics may be good for domestic consumption in India, but to the world only reinforces how far off the deep end India has gone.

    1. You are free to think what your moronic mind wants.
      I will continue publishing truth from proper news outlets.

      1. “Proper news outlets” running stories that have been verified to be fake.

        Example, major Indian media outlets ran stories condemning footage of a mosque attack as fabricated from an earlier mosque attack in Bihar.

        On the ground journalists and now major news networks have verified the mosque attack footage was legit (happened yesterday in Delhi).

        None of the “proper” news networks have issued a retraction, nor have the Delhi police who also quickly labelled the footage as fake.

        This is why Indian media is considered a joke to the world (literally ranked number one in fake news stories). They run unverified stories from RSS outlets, and when caught lying, just ignore it. This is how you get large masses of Indians so misinformed on basic issues in their country, evident to everyone else.

    2. Read your previous comments since last 3 days and tell who is being alarmist and spreading one sided stories.

      Your only answer to all links from other side is that everything is a conspiracy.

      More than one link have been shared which has atleast modicum of truth. You chose to ignore everything that doesn’t suit your narrative.
      Not accepting that any violence was carried out by one side other than for defence shows you are as bigoted as any of the extreme RW nutjobs.

  17. It seems like info war b/w Marees and Mobbywicks

    I think getting all information, from all sides, is for the best

      1. Bilateral riots like Mumbai was a bilateral terrorist attack.

        Mobs of Hindus attacking, looting, and burning. Muslims defending their home, eventually fled to the top floor, defending themselves by throwing rocks and petrol into the marauding crowd below.

        That Muslims succeded in defending themselves from RSS terrorists is commendable, hope they continue!

        1. Time to give it a rest man. Even Sardesai (who loathes the BJP) blames both groups.

          https://twitter.com/sardesairajdeep/status/1232701219711463428?s=20

          I will leave the thread now. It’s been fun (not really). I stand by my view that this is a sad affair, and the protests should have been forcefully shut down before we got to this point. Instead, we now get to see the results of mutual religious animus and poor Indian state capacity.

          1. My info came from your own link, I drew a natural conclusion.

            Unless you have a better explanation for mobs of Hindus burning and looting the ground story of a Muslim home, while the family is on the roof hurling whatever objects they can find into the mob below.

          2. The group loitering around on the street had a few guys in white skullcaps…doesn’t exactly appear as a marauding Hindu mob. Additionally at 0:15, a petrol bomb is thrown at a nearby dwelling, not at anyone in particular.

            Based on Pandita’s thread, the likely explanation is that a Muslim mob sought to attack and terrorize it’s Hindu neighbors with rooftop elevation shielding them from reprisal.

          3. There isn’t a single skull cap visible in the video (white hats, but not skull caps), and anyway RSS was already caught dressing up as Muslims while participating in riots, so you would need something heavier then that.

            Like most RSS propaganda, there is a baseless story being peddled with a vague video. Dude linked an unverified video of unverified people throwing rocks at people not even in frame. This is supposed to be a “proof anchor”, so then right-wing pundits go on to spin any fanciful story about Muslims (with zero evidence), referring to this video that shows literally nothing discernible.

            Unless you are a magician like HM who simply “knows” who each party is, who they are fighting, why, without need of evidence.

          4. White circular caps and some face wrappings, it seems. And a thrown petrol bomb (not a “rock.”) Perhaps you should actually watch the video and read the thread rather than trolling. It’s a Muslim mob, get over it.

            Further details. Again, corroborating the video, the target of the rooftop mob is nearby Hindu properties, not people on the street.

            https://twitter.com/rahulpandita/status/1232731025597317120?s=20

            And if you think Rahul Pandita is a partisan or a hack, that says more about you than anything else.

        2. Indthings, not refuting your overall point but for clarification, the RSS is usually not the street force/shock troops you are describing them to be. There are other proxy groups, that are more devotional in character and comprise more OBC/SC type youth that are used as the vanguard. The RSS youth will grow up and work in a white collar job. Even with all the central government protection they have at the moment, they are very careful about maintaining degrees of separation from direct violent acts.

          1. “here are other proxy groups, that are more devotional in character and comprise more OBC/SC type youth that are used as the vanguard. ”

            I mean y would anyone be surprised. From medival era we are the ones who did the actual fighting while UCs (apart from rajputs) mostly relented and found jobs with the mughals.

            Even though i wouldn;t put RSS totally out of the pale. Their cadre does have street power and fights, just that its accentuated by our power.

        1. Some people want to put all the blame on Hindus. The reality is more complex.

          I am disappointed (but not surprised) at the defections of *some* policemen. Indian state capacity being what it is, I see it largely as an extension of communal disorder.

        2. These riots were one-sided from day 1. They have done everything(physical and verbal) to provoke other side for more than 2 months. Among dead people most are Hindus.
          One IB sleuth was systematically murdered by henchmen of a party leader. Most of foreign media which outsource it’s news stories from likes of Rana Ayyub and Barakha Dutt has been portraying the culprits as victims. These culprits have unending supply of stones and guns.

          My intention was not to post ‘one sided’ accounts in this thread but seeing how zealously ‘others’ are committed to spread unvarified news I tried to post more credible sources.

          To many posters here it may look like that hell has been broken loose on India but I think riots will end soon.

    1. Well deep down our basic instincts drive us. Hindus want Hindu (ish) Pakistan, Marathis want Marathi Maharstra, Assamese want only Assamese, and so on. You get the drift

    2. You do realize that there are no communal riots occurring in Islamabad?

      At this particular point, Pakistan looks better than Modi’s India.

      1. What communities of Indic religions are left in ISLAM-a-BAD?

        This riots are nothing but fundamentalist Muslims showing that they’re ready to turn the country into a hell hole if the country tries to rescue non-Muslims of neighbouring Islamist nations. They’re also angry about many things like Modi getting elected twice/370 article/triple talaq etc. These tricks are nothing new, we’ve been seeing them for like a millenia and we will handle it.

        1. Muslims (and others) have been peacefully protesting for the past two months, reciting the Indian Constitution etc. What justification can there possibly be for a violent reaction now?

          Also “fundamentalist Muslims” would not be burning mosques. These are pogroms against minorities aided and abetted by the forces of the State. There is no way that the central and Delhi governments could not have controlled this earlier. They are either incompetent or complicit.

          1. Muslims were not peacefully protesting.
            1. They pelted stones in Delhi
            2. Burnt buses
            3. Injured 80 police officers in UP
            4. Blocked road
            5. Gave inflammatory speeches like “Hinduon se azadi”, “Zinna wali azadi”, “Hindustan tere tukde honge”, “we will cut the chicken’s neck from India” etc
            6. Brandished Hinduphobic posters
            7. Spread fake information to entice more people into riots
            8. Attacked a journalist who didn’t belong to their camp in daylight
            9. Orchestrated co-ordinated ‘protests’ and inflamed overall environment with aid of journalists
            10. Tried false flag attacks
            and list goes on…..

            The reason why riots flared up all of a sudden is because of Trump’s visit. They wanted to grab attention of international media and shame current Indian government. That’s why the gangsters were hired and actual weapons were fired on the policemen as well as the commoners. Though seeing coordinated biased reporting by left leaning media and international media it seems like the rioters have much more deeper links. I’ve more information to share but wait till any ‘credible’ media outlet publishes it.

          2. Mobbywick, I don’t know how to quantify number of incidents . . . however many anti-CAA protestors have violently attacked liberal and muraqabah muslims or muslims that are accused of allying with the BJP, RSS, VHP, Shiv Sena, Hintutva etc.

            Why isn’t this being emphasized by the Indian media or even the BJP? This is a question many Indian muslims are asking.

            One of my friends who is a prominent Indian public intellectual of the non left has expressed sadness that Amit Shah and other BJP leaders are not stopping the riots because the riots are surging the popularity of the BJP among SCs, STs, OBCs, Sikhs, Buddhist, Jains, Christians, Parsis, Bahais and moderate Indian muslims.

            Could this be true?

          3. AnAn,

            ‘many anti-CAA protestors have violently attacked liberal and muraqabah muslims or muslims that are accused of allying with the BJP, RSS, VHP, Shiv Sena, Hintutva etc.’

            I think its a big failure on part of Indian state and people on other side of the debate to bring this to light. They have been weak at making substantiated claims rather than resorting to mindless denouncing of all Muslims, Media etc. Due to this the Anti CAA guys have been able to peddle their narrative of being involved in peaceful protest which are anything but.

            ‘Amit Shah and other BJP leaders are not stopping the riots because the riots are surging the popularity of the BJP among SCs, STs, OBCs, Sikhs, Buddhist, Jains, Christians, Parsis, Bahais and moderate Indian muslims’

            That could be well the reason why they let the Shaheen bagh protest run amok to get some electoral gains in Delhi election. Mumbai police seems to have nipped this in bud avoiding the avoidable confrontation.
            If true they failed in their calculation and should be rightly held responsible for being party to this mayhem which costs the nation greatly for some petty party gains

          4. Mobbywick,

            It was a Hindu terrorist who shot a Muslim boy outside Jamia on the anniversary of Gandhiji’s martyrdom. He shouted “yeh lo azaadi”. This was directly after a BJP minister chanted “goli maaron salo ko” during a rally. There is no doubt in any unbiased person’s mind that the Hindu Right has been explicitly fomenting violence. But you go ahead and blame Muslims. It says more about your bigotry than anything else.

        2. Yes. We have seen about 35000 communal riots between 1947-2002 and (100s after that) in India and we are still surviving. Islamists only remember 2002 and demonize Modi because this suits their ‘persecuted community’ narrative and helps them in indoctrinating their pawns but we being on the ground and being fully equipped with multiple news sources know who actually is the root cause of the problem.

          I firmly believe that we need an ideological overhaul to remove faultlines in our society. We need to reform our religions specifically Islam. Even though I may look like a caricature for suggeting this right now but I believe it’s necessary to ensure safety and happiness of our upcoming generation.

          1. Mobbywick,

            Subramaniam Swamy and many other Hinduttva people say that India should openly endorse and help the liberal, reform, muraqabah (also called Irfan or Sufi . . . the mystical meditative musical dancing artistic muslims) and Hindu muslims in their contest with conservative muslims; however India can.

            Do you agree with Subramaniam Swamy and other Hinduttva people on this?

            Why are the world’s 6 billion nonmuslims so reluctant to help liberal, reform, muraqaba and atheist muslims with respect to conservative muslims?

      2. “You do realize that there are no communal riots occurring in Islamabad”

        As i have said earlier, u need to have more than 2 communities to have communal riots, no?

        1. Shia-Sunni riots would also be an example of communal violence. Or anti-Ahmadi violence. Yet none of that is happening at the moment.

          I know it puts some of you on the defensive, but India right now is making Pakistan look sane. Time for introspection.

          1. Shia-Sunni happen regularly in 2nd or 3rd tier cities in India but they are diguised under headings like ‘a dispute between two groups’.
            What happens in India is very low scale and most importantly not supported by the law of the land.
            What happens in Pakistan is story of ther day….

          2. “Shia-Sunni riots would also be an example of communal violence. Or anti-Ahmadi violence. Yet none of that is happening at the moment.”

            Sadly it happens inside India to a large degree daily.

            For the record I get near daily whats app messages about Islamist attacks against Sufis, Shia, liberal, atheist muslims inside India. Often many multi-casualty incidents in a single day. Islamist attacks against nonmuslims too.

            These are rarely covered in the mainstream Indian media.

            India has a 0.0032% murder rate multiplied by a population of 1.38 billion people or about 44,000 murders a year. (Which for the record is much lower than the American murder rate of 0.0053%, Pakistani murder rate of 0.0042% and socialist Venezuelan murder rate of 0.0563%.)

            How many of them are Islamist against moderate muslim?
            How many of them are Islamist against nonmuslim?

            Both of these are large numbers that India does not calculate but should.

            It is “POSSIBLE” (and I think very likely) that the number of murders of of moderate muslims by Islamists is much higher than the number of Islamists killed by moderate muslims.

            It is also “POSSIBLE” (and I think very likely) that the number of murders of of nonmuslims by Islamists is much higher than the number of Islamists killed by nonmuslims.

            Sadly India does not compute these numbers. Perhaps one reason India does not compute these numbers is to make the current sitting government look “good” on security.

          3. ‘You do realize that there are no communal riots occurring in Islamabad? At this particular point, Pakistan looks better than Modi’s India.’

            Wow. what an achievement? Once you decimate the all minority communities you dont get to point out we dont have riots anymore. After decimating non Muslim communities they are now fighting other Muslims (Shia, Ahmediya, etc)
            Check this. Doesnt even become a news because hey its Pakistan. What did you expect !
            https://www.ucanews.com/news/shot-for-trying-to-build-a-church/87307

            ‘Shia-Sunni riots would also be an example of communal violence. Or anti-Ahmadi violence. Yet none of that is happening at the moment.’

            You should have really checked twitter on this before boasting.
            https://twitter.com/nailainayat/status/1232668688597356544?s=20

      3. No riots in Islamabad ?
        Have there been many cases of organized Hindu mobs killing policemen or burning trainloads of Muslim women and children in Islamabad ?

        1. There haven’t been any cases of Muslims doing these things to Hindus so not sure what you are driving at.

  18. Christ this forum is becoming an actual parody.

    Warlock citing Reddit comments, HM’s unsourced Twitter threads, AnAn’s Whasapp messages, and somebody on the Open Thread (can’t remember who) talking about what their aunty in Delhi thinks is going on.

    These are probably our best sources though, as everyone else in the world is either a Foreigner, Islamist, or Marxist.

    1. I cited journalists who are not known to be BJP partisans or hacks by any stretch of the imagination. You prefer to call them “unsourced” and “RSS” rather than face the music.

      Good night.

        1. Keep digging that grave…Pandita has videos and interviews and has stated he intends to file a report.

          Anyways, threads are posted above. Viewers can judge for themselves.

    2. You forgot self-hating Hindus.

      Modi bhakts will go to any extent to defend the indefensible–even outright pogroms. It’s not even surprising anymore.

  19. Saw a tweet with a scan of a hospital document supposedly showing the break up of 22 of those killed in the riots that were taken there – it has seven Hindu names, 10 Muslim names, and 5 whose names are not known:

    10 of 22 victims of Delhi violence in GTB Hospital who were killed had received gun shot wounds. In all, death toll is at 25. Where did these guns come from? Were outsiders involved in organised violence and killings? Were politicians also involved? Police has a lot to answer. pic.twitter.com/Q1qYbhujvQ— Aditya Raj Kaul (@AdityaRajKaul) February 26, 2020

  20. I tried to post a twitter link which gives (partial, incomplete etc.) statistics, and got some spam-filter-love.

  21. Patrol bombs and stones were stored on AAP’s leader Tahir Hussain’s rooftop.
    https://www.aninews.in/news/national/general-news/delhi-riots-whatsapp-groups-outsiders-under-scanner20200227102258/

    Tahir Hussain claimed that he was not present during riots because he was also dragged by the mob but people have beem circulating video clips which show he was present in his house on the rooftop during miscreants were attacking people.

    Ankit Sharma’s parents said that Tahir Hussain and his goons dragged their son and three other people and after slaughtering them hid their bodies.

  22. Shivam Vij in “The Print” (I guess he will now be called a “self-hating Hindu”?):

    https://theprint.in/opinion/delhi-pogrom-2020-is-amit-shah-answer-to-an-election-defeat/371558/

    “The Delhi pogrom of 2020 is state-sponsored. Anyone who cannot see that is pretending to be blind. In numerous accounts, videos and photos, we see the Delhi Police purportedly aiding and abetting the violence, either by looking away or actually participating in it.

    A Delhi Police constable has been killed, as has an Intelligence Bureau official. The 24 dead (so far) include people from both religions — but more Muslims. When mass violence is provoked against a community, the community strikes back in defence. That’s how it becomes a riot, spun as an ‘equal fight’ between two sides. Both are then blamed. But the truth is that it is primarily Muslims who have been targeted, Muslim shops burnt, a cemetery desecrated, a mosque taken over, pages of the Quran burnt, and so on.”

    1. “Shivam Vij in “The Print” (I guess he will now be called a “self-hating Hindu”?):”

      Again, to be a “self-hating Hindu”, first u need to be a Hindu, no?

      1. “Shivam” is not exactly a Muslim name.

        This is typical right-wing rhetoric. When presented with evidence that you don’t like, you shoot the messenger. Since Mr. Vij is neither a Muslim nor a Pakistani, the only thing that can be done is question his credentials as a Hindu.

  23. Look here ‘reputed’ international media outlet WSJ is openly lying about the identity of murderers of IB officers. They have deviously twisted martyr’s brother’s words.
    They needs to be sued immediately for Hinduphobia and enticing communal riots in India.

    https://www.organiser.org/Encyc/2020/2/27/Hinduphobic-Wall-Street-Journal-Lies-about-the-death-of-IB-officer-Ankit-Sharma.html

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/indias-ruling-party-government-slammed-over-delhi-violence-11582734524

  24. India needs a Barry Husssain Sotero to say:

    Unity shall prevail. There is nothing that’s wrong with India that cannot be fixed with what’s right with India. There is no right wing India. There is no leftist India. There is no Hindu India. There is no Muslim India. There is only one India.

    Jai Shree Ameen

  25. Most major media outlets have now issued reports condemning the pogrom against Muslims. Major rights organizations, celebs, and even US gov representatives (including Bernie Sanders) have joined in. Sikh, Dalit, and liberal/educated Hindus are on board as well. Very reassuring to see such overwhelming support during this period.

    Casualty numbers continue to climb. Reports of at least two Hindus killed by RSS mobs when trying to help their Muslim neighbors. 85 year old Muslim grandmother burned alive. Reassuring however to see Muslims successfully fighting back against Hindu terrorists in some areas. The tide however is against them with continued police-RSS cooperation.

    Amusing to see the reaction of some far-right Hindus, taking every example of Muslims fighting back as “mutual riots”. Apparently Muslims can only be innocent if they lay down and die quietly. Perhaps this is an example of the Abrahamaic-Dharmic disconnect that users here love to pontificate on.

    1. I’ve given proof of lies of one ‘reputed’ international journal in my previous comment. You can check it if you actually care about truth.

      They changed alleged names of IB officer Ankit Sharma’s murderes names from “Tahir Hussain and his goons” to “Jai Shree Ram speking goons”.
      This is their balatant anti-India and anti-Hindu propaganda.

      I’ll make sure to check the lies of other news sources too.

      I hope you are enough human to accept that Wall Street Jounal has lied through it’s teeth and is involved in smear campaign against India.

      Meanwhile other 3 bodies have also been recovered near Tahir Hussain’s house(where they were dumped after torturous murder).

    2. Good to see support for the victims.

      Also a good idea for you to support the victims also when they happen to be from other side instead of engaging in conspiracy theories.

      The protesters are involved in violence since long time in name of anti CAA so clearly not just as reaction as you keep on suggesting.

      Keep that ‘there is only one truth and that my one’ , Abrahamic derived pontification in check.

      1. There has been no evidence to date of victims from the other side, so its hard to sympathize with figments of ones imagination.

        For the nth time. Hindus gangs going to lynch Muslims, but getting overpowered and lynched instead, are not victims.

        I have no personal “truth”. The entire world except for right-wing Hindus agree on what is happening. The “one truth” party is yours.

        1. ‘ There has been no evidence to date of victims from the other side, so its hard to sympathize with figments of ones imagination.’

          It is hard to find evidence if one chooses to look other way when one is presented.

          ‘For the nth time. Hindus gangs going to lynch Muslims, but getting overpowered and lynched instead, are not victims.’

          For the (N+1)th time that is not the case. See this report filed by Print. No one side can be given clean chit without investigation.
          https://theprint.in/india/anger-towards-other-side-echoes-in-hindu-dominated-areas-of-riot-hit-northeast-delhi/372502/

          ‘ I have no personal “truth”. ‘

          You choose to see things in black and white as they suit you. Thats your issue.

        2. @Indthing
          You are suffering from the book inspired ‘persecution complex’ due to which your mind has been attuned to see one side as ‘victim’ and other side as ‘preparator’. You don’t care about ‘truth’ because. You only care about your ‘beliefs’.

    1. Let us see how this pans out, i think the Bengali Hindu is still uneasy with BJP. And that with enough Muslim numbers should get Mamta home.

      In an ironic way the fallout of the Bengal election will be on Assam,where there are elections after that. If BJP does not find get a favorable result in Bengal, they might implement ILP and take out Assam from CAA ambit, letting the Bengali Hindu fend for themselves.

    1. Razib Khan wrote:

      “i’m not monitoring this thread. are people having fun?”

      Start monitoring it now sicko.

  26. I have been observing news from both sides, and to my surprise some liberal/centrist folks have not come down totally on BJP/RSS for the riots. I guess my initial view that these riots are instigated by the BJP could be wrong. This does not match their MO. Even folks who hate the BJP sort of are not putting all blame to them, which is interesting. It looks more like a riot than pogrom (contrast to what was earlier believed)

    https://twitter.com/sardesairajdeep/status/1232701219711463428

    https://theprint.in/opinion/delhi-riots-neither-designed-by-modi-govt-nor-islamic-conspiracy-its-far-more-dangerous/371544/

    “Delhi riots neither designed by Modi govt, nor Islamic conspiracy. It’s far more dangerous”

    Anywhich way i think the BJP has (sort of ) achieved with CAA what it set out to achieve with NRC. Which is also a total surprise for me. Never thought Hindus have this much Asabiyyah that too for foreign Hindus. Perhaps this similar zeal would have helped in medieval era or something.

    Lets see how things pan out.

    1. This is a leftist outlet but this article is quiet ‘balanced’ by their standards.
      Without doubt these riots were well-planned and after seeing coherence between Indian and international media and the bias in their reporting it becomes even clearer that prime motive of the riots was to malign India’s reputation.

  27. And as I had suspected Bheem Army(which is supporter of Islamist-leftist faction in India and stands for Dalit-Muslim ‘unity’) was involved in turning the protest violent and pelting stones on police. Bheem Army started attacking pro-CAA rally first. It looks like Bheem Army had planned the carnage with it’s associates from the start.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.livehindustan.com/national/story-delhi-violence-delhi-riots-that-killed-38-started-because-of-bhim-army-and-caa-supporters-face-off-3055073.amp.html
    https://m.livehindustan.com/national/story-delhi-violence-delhi-riots-that-killed-38-started-because-of-bhim-army-and-caa-supporters-face-off-3055073.amp.html

      1. I can’t help it if you’ve decided to remain on fault finding mode.

        You can see all of my previous posts in this thread. I’ve posted links from various sources
        some of which are ‘extreme’ left leaning and some are ‘extreme’ right leaning.
        But almost every news has been published in all kind of news outlets. You can use google search tool if you are doubtful.

        By the way what is your opinion about Wall Street Journal publishing fake communal Hindu-phobic news and balatantly lying through teeth?

        Even NDTV(a left leaning news channel) has been accused of cropping an image to hide a mosque whose rooftop was storing stones(the kind which were used in the riots).

        1. It is precisely your earlier posts on this thread which reveal a pattern of Islamophobia. I have been commenting on Brown Pundits for years and have seen a lot of comments from the Hindu Right but you really take the cake as far as victim blaming goes.

          Accusing the WSJ of “hinduphobia” fits with the right wing pattern of denying all reality that doesn’t fit your narrative. If people like you think that Islamophobia is a fake concept (despite all the evidence of discrimination against Muslims worldwide) “hinduphobia” is arguebly an even more fake concept. Hindus are the majority population in India and certainly not a persecuted group. The Hindu Right’s persecution complex is truly baffling.

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