Indus Valley, Sintashta, and Andamanese ancestry in select grioups

Andamanese

I ran some qpAdmin on some populations. In the table below if it’s empty, that means that the model isn’t very good with that population. In other cases, the model doesn’t work without a population. So, if you put East Asians into the model for most South Asians it kind of goes crazy…but without East Asians, Bengalis and Munda are not modeled too well.

I used the exact left and right populations as outlined in the Narasimhan et al. paper when possible. You can see that East Asians are part of the model for Bengalis, so they are removed from the “right” set of populations in that model.

My results are very close to Narasimhan et al. (the main difference is my reference set is slightly different than that of the Reich lab population). Additionally, please note my intuition is that this overestimates Sintashta ancestry by a few percent. That being said, take a look at the Ror (Jatt), Khamboj, and Brahmins from Uttar Pradesh. The Ror have more Indo-Aryan and more Andamanese than the Kamboj. The Uttar Pradesh Brahmin is about the same fraction Indo-Aryan as the Kamboj but has about ten times as much Andamese ancestry.

 IndusSintashtaAHGE. AsianZagros NeolithicAnatolia Neolithic
Sindhi73%15%12%   
Kalash71%30%-1%   
Gujjar69%19%12%   
Khamboj67%31%2%   
Pathan66%25%9%   
Velamas66%6%29%   
SouthIndianBrahmin59%17%24%   
Patel59%14%28%   
Kshatriya51%23%26%   
Dharkars50%17%33%   
Hakkipikki50%5%46%   
Kanjars49%16%35%   
Ror49%41%11%   
Sakilli49%6%45%   
MadigaMala48%5%47%   
NorthIndianDalit48%9%43%   
ChenchuKapu47%8%45%   
NorthIndianBrahmin46%30%24%   
Bengali46%13%30%11%  
Parsi45%3%3% 15%34%
North_Kannadi38%10%52%   
Pulliyar38%4%58%   
Baloch26%8%7% 60% 
Munda19%3%62%17%  
4+

101 Replies to “Indus Valley, Sintashta, and Andamanese ancestry in select grioups”

  1. are you planning on running the S Asian genotype project members with this model?

    yeah I agree sintasha looks a bit high

  2. sintasha looks a bit low, should be 45% + for ror

    use central steppe MLBA outliers with wshg, try out khatri jat etc dogra also

    is kshatriya rajput_haryana from narasimhan ?

  3. My question is – does this model accurately capture the right amount of AHG related ancestry? Doesn’t Indus Valley already have AHG in it? I thought the Indus periphery samples recovered so far were a mix of AHG and Iran-related?

    Is there any way to truly isolate Iran-related? I know there has been some debate about whether it should even be called Iran-related anymore as the split seems to have occurred a long time ago perhaps before the last ice age. Have they found any more samples that may have no AHG in them?

    1. The AHG sections is supposed to show post-IVC AASI input in various south Asian groups. Some seem to have nearly none while most have varying amounts.

      Note that AHG is based on Onge which is divergent from actual AASI by perhaps some tens of thousands of years so the numbers would be different once an actual AASI sample is used as an input instead of the current AHG.

      The question of isolating the Iran component could be possible if the actual AASI is quantified by a pure AASI discovery or if a relevant Iran sample without AASI in it is discovered.

      According to the September 2019 paper there would be some 87% Iran component in Shahr, but I now doubt the results presented in that paper. The paper claims under 30% AASI in Rakhigarhi, yet Rakhigarhi is further in the Iran-AASI cline than Shahr BA2 samples and was along with the most AASI heavy samples (old Shahr BA3 group) which had like 42% AASI as per Narasimhan’s paper. Keep in mind that the numbers will change when actual AASI is used instead of ‘AHG’ so things aren’t fixed yet either way.

      Then there is also the fact that Narasimhan has published a lot of his information publicly while Shinde’s team hasn’t, so we cannot even compare the conflicting results.

  4. Also next time you run this, can you include Nairs from Kerala? Would be interested to see how that breaks down. My own from gedmatch showed very little sintashta but a ton of Indus Valley. I’ve been told however that gedmatch is old and not as accurate anymore.

  5. This is a Fairly good breakdown of the individual components.
    Ror seem a bit high in Sintastha.
    I seen some Jaat-Jatt who looked like slavic like blue eyes, light brown hair , very white skin . If the european person would see them he/she wouldn’t be able to tell the nationality just by the looks, And they speak the most coarse Haryanvi (which sounds good btw).
    Also my cousins have some Tribal like features like the high and wide cheek bone with dense hair,and dark skin of course .
    In the end it doesn’t really matter is it.
    The next few generations are going to be more
    Mixed or less depending upon the region but the universe is expanding .
    Everything gonna get diverse until a calamity occur to calm things down and the Cycle repeats.

    1. why do exactly 0 Haryanvi Jats look like this in agitation pictures? It seems like you really have to cherry pick to see these “blue eyes, light brown hair, white skin” types. They seem to mostly be in entertainment industry where selection for that stuff is ultra high

      in those pics, everyone looks unmistakably like a typical NW indian. Pics of Gilgit Balitistanis look a lot more like what you are describing

      1. I am not cherrypicking my friend. I have seen them frequently when i used to live in sonipat more and more people who were from certain villages were like that especially the women for obvious reasons.
        Personally i have met one guy who looks proper slavic.
        By staying that i not trying to say that all of them are like that but they on shifted (on the scale of ancestry) towards the sintastha.
        That perform rituals like jathera(ancestor workship) which is different .
        Maybe not light brown hair but kind of tending towards brown.

          1. On average, i meant.

            Punjab has roughly 1/3rd population as dalits, also the Hayanvis ST and SC look more like Rajstahni Meenas who could pass off as UCs/OBCs in most states.

            Once in a while u also meet a Haryanvi who doesnt look Indian at all. While all Sardars somehow look Indian to me, perhaps due to overabundance of sikhs in Indian social life.

          2. So this brought up a thought.
            Which group is the most Indian-looking of the Indians?
            Madhya Pradeshis maybe ?

          3. I would say S-Indians. Since they are the original people, as proclaimed by Periyar (may Dosa be upon him )

  6. This is right for what it is but it will probably change significantly once we have better samples. AHG is fairly different from AASI, and the IVC samples are a complete mess.

    On Aryans and phenotypes keep in mind that a large chunk of Aryan DNA is comprised of Iranian-like HG. Anywhere from 1/4-1/3 based on the samples I’ve seen. Taking the Rors as an example, say 30% of their 40% Aryan DNA is actually Iran-like HG, you end up with 28% total that’s actually Euro-like pale skin and brown hair. For comparison, Harappa components get you to like 25%. This gap might narrow with better AASI and Iranian-HG samples.

    So yeah the Rors and Jats have a ton of Aryan admixture relatively speaking, but its not to the point where you’d see many of them running around with white skin, blue eyes, and brown hair.

    1. >keep in mind that a large chunk of Aryan DNA is comprised of Iranian-like HG
      Which ‘Aryan’ population are you referring to? CHG is nearly nothing like Iran HG. On top of that, the average CHG in Yamnaya was around 32%, but Yamnaya is irrelevant to south Asians since south Asian steppe ancestry comes from Sintashta.

      “sample”: “RUS_Sintashta_MLBA:Average”,
      “fit”: 4.7547,
      “RUS_Samara_HG”: 43.33,
      “POL_Globular_Amphora”: 37.5,
      “GEO_CHG”: 19.17

      There is very little CHG in Sintashta. Though we can’t be sure about the people who entered south Asia. Some people suggest that they might have mixed with BMAC, but then there is Dashtikozi which is only slightly admixed with BMAC and those samples are from Tajikistan, not far from the border of south Asia.

      “sample”: “TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:Average”,
      “fit”: 0.7681,
      “RUS_Sintashta_MLBA”: 75.83,
      “RUS_Afanasievo”: 14.17,
      “TKM_Gonur1_BA”: 7.5,
      “RUS_Okunevo_BA”: 2.5

  7. 40%-45% Steppe_MLBA is a consistent result for the Rors and Jatts of Haryana. Very different methods yield this very same range (always).

    The broader question here is still the same, at least in my mind: why… and how?

    1. Yeah 40% is Steppe is accurate, I’m just saying that 30% of Steppe consists of Iranian HG-like ancestry. Also, also most of the methods used don’t have great AASI or Iranian HG modeling, which is inflating Steppe figures a bit. I wouldn’t be surprised if actual Steppe was closer to 35% for Rors rather than 40%.

      The how I think is pretty obvious. A second wave of Steppe people after the initial Aryan Invasion. Explains the high Aryan admixture, the low R1A with high Q and L haplogroups, and why despite being so Aryan-shifted, the Jats/Rors were historically considered Shudras and Mlecchas.

      1. @INDTHINGS,

        One way to verify the second wave hypothesis might be using steppe-derived references from the historical era (in conjunction with Steppe_MLBA), and to do the same with Brahmins.

        If Jatts/Rors show Kushan or Saka or whatnot, and Brahmins don’t, I think it’ll be a solid indication that you’re right.

        I’ll try that tonight.

      2. Depends on the subclades of Q. If most of them are Q1b2 then that adds to the number of pre-steppe lineages. Q1a would be a steppe lineage.

    2. No, the average should be more like 35% MLBA when you account for things like Tyumen and other stuff. Kalash ends up in mid 20s using that method.

  8. On the question of phenotype though….

    I suppose we should probably change a few of our assumptions. As Razib has been arguing for some time, some Sintashta_MLBA-related populations might not have been characterized by the sort of depigmentaion we see with contemporary northern Europeans.
    And to be real, even now you can encounter northern Slavs who are surprisingly brunette/brunet.

    ^ For example, my Ukrainian American friend (my only Ukrainian American friend, lol) looks very similar to me. People often say we look like brothers. And that’s despite the fact that I’m not a European-looking Pashtun. There are Pashtuns out there who look straight up quasi-Irish (not exactly common, but they definitely exist, within nearly every family)…. and I am not one of them. I look West Asian/Caucasus-ish, or maybe some sort of “exotic” (to northern European-derived Americans) Greek or Italian (I get Mexican a lot too… so I look very confusing).

    So again, despite looking vaguely Iranian/Chechen/Greek/Italian/Mexican (Lmao), me and my Eastern European amigo look like brothers, which says a lot. I haven’t been to Eastern Europe, but I get the feeling that (perhaps) they might not be as fair as northwestern Europeans. And if contemporary eastern Europeans aren’t phenotypically identical to northwestern Europeans, why should we expect ancient steppe populations and their direct living descendants (like the Jatts and Rors) to look Irish or Swedish?

  9. So yeah the Rors and Jats have a ton of Aryan admixture relatively speaking, but its not to the point where you’d see many of them running around with white skin, blue eyes, and brown hair.

    remember depigmentation seems to have happened in europe over the last 3,000 years. the signatures of selection are surprisingly robust to less than 2,000 years. so lots of unknowns.

    some notes on the phylogenetics: i think we need to get less worried about the method of using andamanese as a proxy than is in evidence in these comments. i too used to be worried. but using outgroups seems OK actually. that being said, this is not a closed question.

    yes, i think the rors may have had a second admixture. will think more on this and test different samples.

  10. Would like to see what will SA genotype project Bengali members and your family members score compared to the BEB samples.

    1. they detected a euro-enriched admixture 1500 K BP.”

      mihirakula’s progeny!

      it was always suspected that jats/rors are relatively recent migrants from steppe, so this kind of confirms that. but isn’t the absence of east asian signal in them is an anomaly that needs to be explained?

      may be scythians and hunas of 500 AD weren’t so east asian looking any way? more like parthians?

      1. On East Asian signal.

        There are steppe samples we have that start to show a dramatic increase in Q haplogroup frequency with very little increase in autosomal East Asian admixture. When run through Harappa, a lot of that East Asian comes from inputs like American and Beringian, which represent very ancient Eastern-Steppe signals.

        Coincidentally (or not as I believe), these signals also peak in Jats (and some Tajiks), who actually have the highest portion of this admixture outside of Steppe Turks/Mongols, and Native Americans.

        I think its quite likely that a Steppe-enriched group carrying a lot of Q and L from Central Asia, without much traditional East-Asian admixture, crashed into Punjab some centuries after the Aryan Invasion, and out popped the Jats.

        1. I think its quite likely that a Steppe-enriched group carrying a lot of Q and L from Central Asia, without much traditional East-Asian admixture, crashed into Punjab some centuries after the Aryan Invasion, and out popped the Jats.

          did not know the details. but i was actually thinking along these lines

  11. SE, there was probably a lot of structure in iran/turan. also, no sure they are the scythians/hunas. the Y chromosomes look weird. lots of C-something and L. look in the supplements.

    the mtdna is pretty south asian too. that indicates to me that you got totally male-mediated admixture here. they have every little AASI, but their 60% s. asian mtdna. so few women coming in from the steppe

    1. Are you referring to this?

      https://imgur.com/a/KYJWLGI

      There is more L in a region as small as Swat era graves than there is in all of Iran/Turan. We don’t have IVC yDNA results yet but there were rumours of most males being L-M20 from one site in Rakhigarhi. Somehow only one low coverage female was announced in the end.

      JR has noted in the past that people in bronze age Turan have some south Asian admixture so the flow of L could have been from south Asia to central Asia as well. I think Narasimhan also listed a model similar to that somewhere in the supplementary data, a few models involving Indus periphery as an input.

      As far as Q is concerned, the subclades are crucial. Q1a and Q1b1 would be steppe lineages while Q1b2 has been in south Asia possibly for over 10,000 years. I haven’t been able to find the breakdown of 15% Q in eastern Jats so far.

      And finally regarding C: there is C in Rors as per that late 2018 paper but they didn’t mention the subclades. If it is C2 then it would be a steppe lineage however if it is C1b2 then it would be an AASI lineage.

    2. I wonder why people keep looking to Hepthalites/Scythians and not Kushans. Based on what I know about Indian I guess to a degree the names are interchangeable…

  12. I tried to post a comment but it didn’t go through for some reason. Anyway, I guess this link is the only thing I can get through for now:
    https://imgur.com/a/TiZDhfW

    Edit: It worked this time! Not going to risk editing the comment here since I tried that before and it didn’t work either.

    Combined Scythian + Kangju + Kushan input gives 8.2% Kangju + 0% Scythian + 5% Kushan. Aside from that there was also 29.8% Sintashta. So if we assume that Rors are a mixture if a new population and an older local one, then 86.8% of the older one was 29.8% Sintashta -> 34% Sintashta in it. The total MLBA in Rors would be 34(0.868) + 60(0.082) + 50(0.05) = ~37%. The numbers add up, pre-late mixture population was still at least 30% Sintashta, so the strangeness hasn’t gone away.

    Will try other combinations as well.

    1. Looking through different combinations, I still get over 27% steppe in pre-recent mixture in Rors in some combinations.

      There is also the aspect of less east Asian influenced populations like Kangju working better than more east Asian mixed populations like Scythians. So if there was a later admixture, it would still probably be an early iron age thing before the east Asian component became ubiquitous in central Asia.

      Global25 gives the following:
      “sample”: “Ror:Average”,
      “fit”: 1.3618,
      “IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2”: 47.5,
      “KAZ_Kangju”: 23.33,
      “RUS_Sintashta_MLBA”: 23.33,
      “Paniya”: 5.83

      while Vahaduo gives the following using the same combo:
      Shahr BA2: 51.0%
      KAZ_Kangju: 18.0%
      Paniya: 3.0%
      RUS_Sintashta_MLBA: 28.0%

      G25 gives more Kangju while Vahaduo gives more Sintashta.

      I have noticed that adding Shahr BA1 and Tyumen on the side reduces the Kangju component in Vahaduo, can’t try this in the free version of global25, though the more grouped Vahaduo results have a better fit. In that case, maybe the extra Tyumen and Shahr BA1 comes with the Kangju-like source as well. That would mean that the later input component are Kangju + Shahr BA1 + Tyumen.

      Vahaduo extended breakdown:
      Shahr BA1: 3.8%
      Shahr BA2: 47.6%
      KAZ_Kangju: 11.6%
      Paniya: 4.4%
      Sintashta: 30%
      Tyumen: 2.6%
      If we add Shahr BA1 + Kangju + Tyumen we arrive at the same 18% value as the 18% Kangju in the 4 input model. So at least there is some consistency. The thing is global25 gives Kangju a 5.33% higher value so IDK what is up with that. Both Vahaduo and Global25 pin Kangju at ~60% Sintashta.

      Going by the Vahaduo results, the external 18% input brings with it 60 x 0.116 = 6.96% Sintashta, which is 38.6% of the incoming population.
      The prior population in south Asia that it mixed with would have 30/(1-0.18) = 36.6% Sintashta.

      Seems strange since both the incoming and local populations would be comparable in Sintashta ancestry. There is something off.

      IDK, maybe someone with the whole version of global25 or with some other software could confirm or deny the Vahaduo results.

      Be sure to use Shahr BA1 + BA2 + Tyumen + Sintashta + Kangju +Paniya/onge/AHG.

  13. I thought Bengalis would have similar Sintashta and AHG as South Indian Brahmins; only the Indus would be lesser due to East Asian. AHG %age is probably authentic as also Indus is capturing a fair share of AHG, but Sintashta %age seems a bit off. I assumed slightly more Sintashta than Patels for Bengalis.

  14. One of the interesting things that has come up from the Narasimhan et al paper is the upsurge of AHG ancestry in the post-IVC period.

    That this upsurge reached the very frontiers of South Asia is evident from the AHG upsurge in the Historic era Swat samples.

    If I were to make an educated guess, since Kalash have 0 AHG and NW populations most closely related to them have around 10-12 % AHG, it is likely that the AHG upsurge in these regions was around that figure.

    What is the source of this AHG upsurge. The most likely driver of it should be the rise and spread of Buddhism as well as the rise of Magadha as the political power centre of South Asia for many centuries.

    Pataliputra (Patna) and later on Kannauj in UP were the power centres of North Indian empires for a combined period of more than a millenium. It is therefore this political domination of Eastern India that perhaps led to AHG surge in North & NW South Asia. We may also note that Uttar Pradesh, Bihar & Bengal are demographic heavyweights of South Asia.

    1. What is the source of this AHG upsurge. The most likely driver of it should be the rise and spread of Buddhism as well as the rise of Magadha as the political power centre of South Asia for many centuries.

      not crazy. but the swat transect AHG seems to start rising before buddhism and the centrality of magadha.

      my own model is outlined in my post on the ‘aryan integration theory.’

      1. I know it will sound a little outlandish, but the dating of Buddha and origins of Buddhism is not based on any firm scientific basis. According to Chinese tradition Buddha lived around 1000 BC or earlier. The current consensus is just that – a consensus. A lot of dates of ancient India have no firm basis. Hence we ought to keep this at the back of our mind.

        1. Jaydeepsinh

          A lot of dates of ancient India have no firm basis.

          Agreed

          the dating of Buddha and origins of Buddhism is not based on any firm scientific basis. According to Chinese tradition Buddha lived around 1000 BC or earlier.

          The Sri Lankan histories, the Mahavamsa Dipawamsa etc which has been continuously updated, uses one consistent dating system, i.e. since the passing of the Buddha.

          Asoka had been lost in India, but never forgotten in Sri Lanka. Fondly remembered for introducing Buddhism to Sri Lanka. Asoka was identified in India and dated using the Mahavamsa.

          Can read about finding Asoka here.
          https://www.brownpundits.com/2019/02/04/review-the-buddha-and-the-sahibs-and-ashoka-the-search-for-indias-lost-emperor/

          To quote from the Mahavamsa Chapter 5; This Chapter references the Moriyas, Bindusara and Chandragupta among others.
          Be it known, that two hundred and eighteen years had passed from the nibbana of the Master unto Asoka’s consecration.
          http://mahavamsa.org/mahavamsa/original-version/05-third-council/

          Consistent to the present day is the word, just like BC and AD. So therefore can cross reference and verify.

  15. About the high ‘steppe’ ancestry among the Rors and Jats, I firmly believe it has nothing to do with any later Iron Age migration from the steppe or Central Asia.

    The Scythian ancestry in Jats is a 19th century myth concocted by quasi-historians. There is nothing in earlier literature or early native accounts to substantiate these modern day myths.

    On the other hand, we know that the Vedic homeland was centred specifically in Haryana & Western UP, two regions where the Jats have the highest ‘steppe’ ancestry.

    Even a die-hard AMT proponent like Michael Witzel argues that it is the Kurus who are responsible for the spread of the Vedic culture across North India. Kurus were living in the same area as their earlier Vedic ancestors, in Haryana & Western UP.

    So the high levels of ‘steppe’ ancestry in Brahmins and Kshatriyas in other regions of North India could have come about through the spread of the Vedic religion and culture from its centre in Haryana & West UP. In that context, the highest levels of ‘steppe’ ancestry in Rors and Jats of that region makes perfect sense.

    You do not need a later Iron Age expansion to explain the high ‘steppe’ in the Jats. It is akin to going on a wild goose chase.

    Y-dna L surely did not come to South Asia from the outside. And with regad to y-dna Q, let me note that in recent years we have had decent studies of y-dna Q & Q3 and they clearly show that the deepest splits in Q lineage in between the Iranian plateau and South Asia and is of the order of 17 kya and there is significant ancestral diversity of this lineage in South Asia. It is likely a part of the Iranian Farmer related lineage shared between the Iranian plateau and South Asia.

    https://bmcbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12915-018-0622-4

    https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12862-016-0870-2

  16. So the high levels of ‘steppe’ ancestry in Brahmins and Kshatriyas in other regions of North India could have come about through the spread of the Vedic religion and culture from its centre in Haryana & West UP. In that context, the highest levels of ‘steppe’ ancestry in Rors and Jats of that region makes perfect sense.

    the steppe % in rors is matched in lithuania and surrounding regions. and, the reference population for the steppe are sintashta samples that around ~1800 BC from locations in modern kazakhstan.

    the key distinction of the steppe in the narasimhan papers is that they have anatolia neolithic. it seems implausible that this is deeply rooted in haryana since it is not found in iran and increases in frequency over time and is lacking in IVC.

    1. I am not going to debate about the larger issue of Sintashta migration into South Asia, we may do that at some other time. My limited point is that the high steppe among Jats & Rors could be a result of them being directly descended of those groups in Haryana & west UP who spread the Vedic culture in South Asia. We don’t need a later Iron Age migration from the steppe to explain their high ‘steppe’ ancestry.

      This spread is obviously a post-3000 BC phenomenon and could have happened as late as the Late Harappan period.

      Also, the Anatolia N ancestry undoubtedly is intrusive to South Asia but steppe is not the only source. Anatolia N ancestry was present across Central Asia and Eastern Iran with which the IVC had strong linkages.

      1. You make an interesting point regarding Anatolian type ancestry since based on what I know: if you model south Indian general or upper castes using south Indian lower castes or tribals then the tribals seem to soak up a minor extra Anatolian component.

        There there is also the case of mtDNA HV14 originating in southern Iran perhaps 12,000 years ago and it is ultimately descended from an older Anatolian subclade of HV, so there were links between Anatolia and Iran going back to some point in the late ice age with some kind of geneflow from Anatolia to Iran. Who know, maybe this predates the old split in the Iran groups. Will be posting some passages:

        ———————————————————————————
        >We estimate the age of HV14 haplogroup at 12.1–13.4 kya (corrected mutation rate) or 8.4–12.6 kya (aDNA-calibrated rates). Although the small number of available mitogenomes makes any conclusive interpretation difficult, the phylogeography of HV14 nevertheless suggests southern Iran as a likely point of origin for this haplogroup.

        >The Near Eastern and South Asian dispersion of HV14 is particularly curious, given that it is a subclade of the otherwise European HV-16311. Furthermore, one ancestral lineage of HV14 in fact lacks the haplogroup-defining T16311C mutation. With T16311C being highly recurrent, we examined the alternative phylogeny of HV14 as a clade independent from HV-16311. Utilizing all available HV-16311 mitogenomes, a total of 135, our analysis did not provide evidence against the current position of HV14 as a subclade of HV-16311 (Supplementary Fig. S2, Fig. 4). Given the phylogeography of HV-16311 and the age estimates, it is likely that HV-16311 first emerged in Anatolia around 17 kya.
        ———————————————————————————

        Source for the above: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-48596-1

        On top of this, some of the region between Iran and south Asia that was above the sea level during the last ice age is submerged as of now. Perhaps there were some early societies in the late ice age responsible for this mixture starting from Anatolia, going through Iran and perhaps finally ending up in south Indian tribes. If these societies extended through the range of the increase of the sea level, then there epipaelolithic/mesolithic settlements would have been washed away by the gradually rising oceans.

      2. Jaydeep,

        This is possible, but there are problems when taking this theory.

        If Haryana is the Vedic homeland dishing out Steppe admixture to its inhabitants, why do only the Jats have outlier Steppe levels? No other Haryvani exhibts this.

        All historic records referring to the Jats describe them arriving in Haryana from Punjab.

        Huge haplogroup discrepancy between Jats and literally everyone else in South Asia. Some Q and L subclades may be native (though I doubt even this), but even if granted, still indicates fundamentally different process going.

        Why are such Steppe enriched Jats from the Vedic homeland historically considered Shudras and Mlecchas?

        Jats coming from outside answers all these questions.

        1. If they do come recently from outside then how come eastern Jats have a higher steppe ancestry than western Jats do? If the question is about the location and the relative genetic comparison to the surrounding peoples then this would be inconsistent as well.

          Furthermore, eastern Jats have more Q than Sikh Jats and Rors do. Why isn’t there a common Q cline decreasing from the west to east either?

          As far as L is concerned, a small region in Swat yielded more L than all of central Asia did. The IVC lineages haven’t been announced yet, but when the rumors were circulating in 2017, everyone was pointing at the rough correlation between the general IVC range and the distribution of L.

          1. Eastern Jats (Haryana, UP, Rajasthan) moved into caste-enforced Hindu areas, their neighbors wouldn’t mix with them, and as they adopted Hinduism, they too began self-enforcing endogamy.

            Western Jats in non- Hindu Punajb didn’t have to deal with this as much, therfore mixed more with average Punjabis.

            Explains gradient of decreasing Steppe.

          2. IDK about the details of Rajasthan Jats, they had considerably lower NE Euro in the harappaworld results iirc. So I would not group them with the eastern Jats.

            However the majority of the eastern Jats were living in Haryana, which was a part of Punjab historically speaking, Before the Muslim conquests Punjab was also a part of the Hindu empires like Guptas.
            The non-Hindu range/Buddhist range existed in what is now northern Pakistan and Afghanistan and both western and eastern Jats lived outside of these Buddhist/non-Hindu ranges.

            Furthermore, even if your claim is true, then how would it explain the drastic reduction in Q specifically when L still dominates the paternal haplogroups in both eastern and western Jats? Did they have some post iron age DNA testing kits which allowed them to specifically select against Q carriers in the west?

            Here is a map of Q1b from one of JR’s links: The spread in the indigenous populations can be explained by the Iran HG type ancestry.

            https://imgur.com/a/EisMAng

          3. Highest Steppe percentage I’ve seen is in Rajasthan and UP Jats.

            Haryana is not a part of Punjab historically, this is a modern phenomenon that occurred due to the Mughals and British lumping the two together in one province. Haryana has been considered Aryavarta from Day 1 and ruled mostly by Hindu Empires. Most of Punjabs history has been spent ruled by non Hindu powers, and considered outside Aryavarta.

            I’m not aware of Q and L discrepancies between Indian Punjabi and Haryana Jats, would appreciate link to info. There hasn’t been any haplogroup study on Pak Jats who are the largest population of Jats, so we need that before I’d be sure of any theories.

            The map you linked shows a distribution for Q that does not map onto Iranian HG distribution. Also subclades need to be teased out more. Figures I’ve seen show steep drop off in total Q after Jat, Tajiks, and Pashtuns.

          4. Post the Rajasthan Jat results that you speak of. Global25 doesn’t have them.
            I found this on some forum online:
            rajasthani-jatt
            S-Indian: 25%
            Baloch: 35%
            Caucasian: 11%
            NE Euro: 15%

            That looks more like western Jatts than eastern Jats.

            >Haryana wasn’t a part of Punjab

            Haryana literally was carved out of what used to be the greater extent of Indian Punjab, there was no Haryana as a separate polity before that. There was the Kuru kingodm, which included modern Punjab long ago, but that was in the iron age, and even then it consisted of what is now Haryana, Delhi, western UP and Punjab. Note the inclusion of Punjab.

            >Haryana has been considered Aryavarta from Day 1 and ruled mostly by Hindu Empires. Most of Punjabs history has been spent ruled by non Hindu powers, and considered outside Aryavarta.

            Punjab falls in the range of Aryavratta. If anything, it extends all the way north to Himalayas. Do you live in some kind of bizarro Htrae or something?

            >I’m not aware of Q and L discrepancies between Indian Punjabi and Haryana Jats, would appreciate link to info. There hasn’t been any haplogroup study on Pak Jats who are the largest population of Jats, so we need that before I’d be sure of any theories.

            Paindu listed the information in an old thread. Mentioned more R1a in Punjab Jatts and more Q in eastern Jats. 40% R1a in Punjab Jats, 35% in Rors, 25% in eastern Jats; while he mentioned that the frequency of Q was the striking thing about eastern Jat yDNA among the group. Haven’t seen him around since, so you will have to look out for him. Pakistani Juts were very different in the harappaworld results in comparison to both Punjabi/western Jatts and eastern Jats. They had considerably less NE Euro and considerably more S Indian with a comparable amount of Balochi, if not a slightly higher amount of it. What is needed now is a full understanding of both yDNA and mtDNA in Punjabi Jatts, Pakistani Juts, eastern Jats and Rors. yDNA is largely already known.

            >The map you linked shows a distribution for Q that does not map onto Iranian HG distribution. Also subclades need to be teased out more. Figures I’ve seen show steep drop off in total Q after Jat, Tajiks, and Pashtuns.

            It does actually. In general it shows the Q1b/Q3/Q-M275 distribution. Note the high frequency around western Iran, northwestern Iran, northwestern India and western China. All places with considerable Iran related ancestry. If it was a steppe-specific group then it should have indigenous population centers in other places which don’t have Iran HG ancestry as well. Note that it is also found in Jews so European regions with Jewish populations. The higher frequency within Estonia in Genealogy projects but lower frequency within the same area in indigenous populations could be because Jews or some other Q1b minority were over-represented in those projects thus the lack of an indigenous hotspot.

            This discussion has reached into a lot of other things, but are we sure that another steppe admixture is enough to explain the difference?

            “sample”: “Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh:Average”,
            “fit”: 2.2707,
            “IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2”: 70.83,
            “RUS_Sintashta_MLBA”: 15,
            “Paniya”: 7.5,
            “KAZ_Kangju”: 6.67

            “sample”: “Ror:Average”,
            “fit”: 1.4813,
            “IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2”: 45,
            “KAZ_Kangju”: 28.33,
            “RUS_Sintashta_MLBA”: 19.17,
            “Paniya”: 7.5

            93.33% of hypothetical non recent ancestry in UP Brahmins has 15% Sintashta, which means 100% of it would be around 16% Sintashta.

            71.67% of hypothetical non recent ancestry in Rors has 19.17% Sintashta, which means 100% of it would be around 26% or 27%. A difference still persists.

            Kangju is about 60% Steppe MLBA. This gives Brahmins a total of 6.67 (0.6) + 15 = ~19% Sintashta as a prediction.

            “sample”: “Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh:Average”,
            “fit”: 2.1857,
            “IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2”: 71.67,
            “RUS_Sintashta_MLBA”: 20,
            “Paniya”: 8.33,
            “IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1”: 0
            So 19% or 20%

            Even if Brahmins didn’t have any of the hypothetical non-recent ancestry and only Rors did, the Brahmin Sintashta average would still be lower than the Sintashta in hypothetical non-recent ancestry in Rors (~26% to 27%).

          5. You need to add NE Euro and Med together HRP0360 is a Rajasthani Jat that has a combined NE+Med of 21.39 which is higher than the Haryana average I’ve seen. But there is also a Rajasthani Jat that’s below the average, so who knows. The highest of all Jat samples is a West UP Jat at 24.59, which if I remember correctly is higher than the Ror average. We need more samples to be sure about this, but from what we do have its clear Haryana, West UP, and Rajasthani Jats are more Western shifted than East Punjab Jats, who are more Western shifted than West Punjab Jats. Which also exactly follows the decreasing importance of caste endogamy in the Northwest.

            I won’t discuss the Punjab Aryavarta thing because it will derail what has been a productive discussion, and others are more knowledgeable about it than me. I’ll just say that assuming I’m correct about the caste-dynamics as one goes from Haryana to West Punjab, that would explain the decreasing Steppe.

            I need to see actual figures for haplogroups between Sikh and Haryana Jats. Studies have been done but nowhere do I see these groups broken up, they are just lumped together as Jats. Also, there has been no significant study on Muslim Jats at any level. I think there is haplogroup info for like 8 of them, and admixture/Harappa data for around that many as well. Compare that to Sikh and Haryana Jats who we literally have hundreds of samples for.

            Q does not map onto Iranian HG at all. The highest Iranian HG admixtures in the world are found in the Baluch region, Sindh, South Punjab, parts of Gujarat, and certain South Indian populations, in that general order. These groups have very little Q (if any) from what I’ve seen. Which doesn’t mean there aren’t Q subclades that aren’t indigenous, I just think based on what we know so far, that should not be our first thought.

          6. >Harappa world Jat results

            IDK what the Med component exactly represents, could easily be some unknown Anatolian geneflow. Iranians in the list had more than almost all south Asian samples in spite of Iranians having less Sintashta than the other populations among them in the top positions in the list. His NE Euro was well within the Punjab Jat range. According to this list I have, he has less NE Euro than all Rors, Haryana and UP Jats in the list. So his unusually low NE Euro and high Med component makes it a bit hard to discern exactly what is going on if both go hand in hand.
            On top of this his Med component was also only somewhat higher than that of the Rajasthan Brahmin so I don’t think that it has a strong bearing on the steppe ancestry. Maybe Iranian admixture in Rajasthan? If you have his G25 coordinates then I can check them and change my view if something does turn up.

            >Caste dynamics

            Looks like they somehow spared L-M20 from it. The Lord must have blessed Abe(L)’s sons greatly it seems!

            >Jat haplogroups

            You are indeed correct regarding the information available to the public, but this Paindu fellow had a lot more than I had expected a random commentator. He might have gone to the sources that the one study used. They aren’t publicly available AFAIK so he might have pulled some strings because he was very confident with the Q in eastern Jats being higher than Punjab Jatts.

            >Q does not map onto Iranian HG at all. The highest Iranian HG admixtures in the world are found in the Baluch region, Sindh, South Punjab, parts of Gujarat, and certain South Indian populations, in that general order. These groups have very little Q (if any) from what I’ve seen. Which doesn’t mean there aren’t Q subclades that aren’t indigenous, I just think based on what we know so far, that should not be our first thought.

            Balochi samples sizes are pretty small: 13 and 25 based on the wikipedia list. JR has repeatedly pointed out how within Q1b, the most divergent subcalde Q3e/Q-Y1150 is mostly confined to south Asia and the regions around it. There is also the fact that Hotu has a higher affinity for ANE input than Ganj Dareh or any other known early Iran sample does. Could easily be some later wave input there. Doesn’t at least one southern Pakistani member of anthrogenica also have mtDNA A8? Could have come with the Q1b2 sometime in the last few thousand years of the previous glaciation period or more concisely in the epipaleolithic.
            One thing is hard to deny- Q1b2 does have a special relation to early Holocene populations of Iran-south Asia region. The Bengali Q1b2 is the most divergent one out of them all on yfull and there is an entire branch within Pakistan alone. We don’t know about the specific Jat Q subclades so this talk might be maturing a bit too soon and the last section of my comment will explain why.

            In all of this, while a hypothetical Kangju-Kushan type of input could explain a bump in the steppe ancestry, I will grant you that, however the pre-hypothetical mixture population would still have had a higher steppe than the upper caste average. So even if this is true (assuming the Q is mostly xQ1b2, or perhaps the subclade of Q is outright irrelevant) it still doesn’t explain why the comparatively high Sintashta pre-mixture population ended up the way it did. If anything, mixture with those who ruled over most of northern south Asia should have resulted in an upward mobility with the social positions. Was the previous, pre-mixture position even worse than what it became later on? That only deepens the problem further. It can’t be easily hand-waved away with a later input alone.

    2. >the steppe % in rors is matched in lithuania and surrounding regions

      Lithuanians are like equivalent to 70% Sintashta though aren’t they?

  17. re: sintashta ancestry. the proximal models indicate that their primary contributor of ancestry (steppe emba) is modeled as eastern hunter-gatherer (european) & causus hunter-gatherer. not plausible to me that they’d be long-standing residents of haryana

  18. Discussion is getting pretty nuanced. I didn’t know Pakistani Juts score differently than even Western Jats of Indian Punjab. Maybe IVC matrix was denser there?

    I would also like to see an mtDNA discussion or any good papers on it. Steppe mostly brought men. But were there no women? Maybe differentials of mtDNA between groups can give us some help with this ancestry puzzle.

  19. I hope this helps to the theory additional steppe ancestry. From Historical records, “Pulakeshin” Chalukya of Badami, the name stands out(5-6th century CE/AD). The archeological remains of Pulakeshin are found in Kazakhstan (Davidski’s some archeological paper has more details). Kushans/Indo-Scythians/Saka were definitely in South Asia. Some warriors could have stayed back.

  20. In our community, 20-30% Kambhojas are colored eyes and rare cases blonde hair in early childhood ages. It is not unique to particular groups.

      1. I think in Vedas et al, Khambojas are already identified as a Afghani/C-Asian tribe . So colored eyes and blonde hair wouldn’t be a stretch.

  21. As a Punjabi Jutt living among rural Jaats and Rors in Haryana I have the following suggestions and observation on the discussion.
    Jaats and Jutts are the same people with the same attitudes and outlook and of the same tribal origins; thus Chahal. Grewal, Mann, Baidwan and so on. I have heard many Jutt gotras of Punjab to claim to have originated in the vicinity of Jaisalmer around the 11th century. This would account for the cline northwards towards decreasing steppe dna, with the minimum in Pakistan. The earlier they migrated out of Jaisalmer area the more they mixed up with locals and therefore the lower the steppe percentage. In that context the cline is more steppe shifted towards the south and eastern jaats because they have not mixed up as much with the local populations. It also accounts for the theory that Jaats came out of Sistan into India through the Bolan pass and moved mostly North and East, It also suggest that they did not come down the Khyber to spread into Punjab first and then Haryana UP and Rajasthan,
    Jaats and Rors do not mix up or socialize as equals, and they follow different social customs. Features and complexion wise Rors are more consistent than Jaats who can range from nearly black to nearly white. Rors are less variable, and I have never seen a very dark Ror. A light skin is common enough among Jaats; less common are light coloured eyes; and brown hair is rare. A combination of all three traits in jaats is something I have never seen among Jaats and Jutts. My own father who had very fair skin and green grey eyes had hair of the blackest possible. Such a combination is easy to come across in Kashmiri Muslim and Kashmiri Pandits even though they may have less steppe dna.
    It is also to be noted that one of the reasons for the lower steppe dna among Punjabi Jutts could be the egalitarian tendency inspired by the statutory prohibition of caste among Sikhs and perhaps Muslims, unlike the Hindu Jaats who continued to be more conservative.
    Their status as Shudras in the Brahminical system is ascribed to the refusal of Jats to follow prescribed rituals on the observation of which Brahminism placed so much emphasis. Jaats and Jutts have always practiced widow remarriage for example. In a famous litigation of the early 20th century the Lahore High Court ruled that Jutts were indeed Shudra because they practiced widow remarriage. Normally, given the fact that their main profession is farming they should have been classed as Vaisya. It is likely that they were a foreign group who never fully integrated into the Brahminical system and remained a mlecchha category. Some Jat surnames claim to be or Rajput origin and the explanation for their lower caste status seems to be that they took to following the plough, to farming that is, which a true Rajput would shun. Nowadays however with Rajputs and Brahmins both farming and remarrying one wonders who is what. This theory does not account for the difference in dna among Rajputs and Jaats/Jutts.
    Rors are a relatively small community confined to mainly Karnal, Kurukshetra and Panipat districts of Haryana. The suffered from Jaat intimidation socially and there is confusion in the group about its origins. In recent years some of them have begun subscibing to the absurd theory that Rors are descendants of Marathas who conquered vast tracts in the North during the heyday of the confederacy.

    1. Thanks for your reply. It was quite insightful. I am of the same opinion as you that the higher steppe among Haryanvi & Western UP Jats could be them mixing less with other groups, most of whom are with low ‘steppe’ ancestry.

      However, I would disagree with the statement that Jats are foreign to the subcontinent. Their lower status in the caste heirarchy could be because of falling out of favour with the Brahmins long back. It is for me impossible to ignore the fact that the dominant community (the Jats) living in the very region (Haryana & Western UP) that was the center of Vedic civilization as per the Vedic literature from where it spread across the rest of North India, that very community also has the highest percentage of ‘steppe’ ancestry – usually associated with spread of Indo-European languages by the geneticists. It simply cannot come about by co-incidence.

  22. sbarrkum,

    Thanks for your reply. Yes I am aware of how the dating of Buddha has come about. But there is no reason to believe that the Sri Lankan Buddhist tradition about Buddha is any more reliable than the Chinese one.

    The main reason why the Western scholarship has favoured the Sri Lankan dating is because of the belief about when Chandragupta Maurya and Asoka ruled. The Colonial era scholars were heavily invested in Church beliefs such as earth coming in existence in 4004 BCE which they only abandoned in the late 19th century.

    Therefore, in the latter half of the 18th century, when knowledge about Indian claims of great antiquity began to filter among the intellectual circles of Europe and scientists like Playfair and Bailley advocating them there was an uproar. William Jones when he began his study of Indian history had this at the back of his mind and was keen to bring down the great claims of antiquity made by Indian tradition. So he chanced upon a great emperor of India who arose around the time when Alexander left India. He was known as Sandrocottus to the ancient Greeks and there was one name in the Puranas that matched perfectly, Chandragupta Maurya.Thinking he had struck gold, he proceeded to bring down ‘exaggerated’ claims of Indian antiquity and ‘reduce it to its proper limits’ or so he is known to have remarked.

    But while the Puranas know only Chandragupta of the Mauryas there was also another Chandragupta, of the Guptas who is unknown in the Puranas because he came to prominence in the post-Puranic age. And when we take this latter Chandragupta as the Greek Sandrocottus things make much more sense and the Indian claims of greater antiquity are also understood.

    Therefore, in such a context, I think you would agree, that the dating of Buddha around 6th century BC is a little too late and there is no reason why we should be insistent about its correctness.

    1. “And when we take this latter Chandragupta as the Greek Sandrocottus things make much more sense and the Indian claims of greater antiquity are also understood.”

      Wait, now i am confused, are u saying Sandrocottus is Chandragupta of the Gupta empire? Because the timelines difference is so vast. Perhaps Sandrocottus is a totally different King than Chandragupta Maurya, but he can’t be the latter. Can he?

    2. Jaydeepsinh

      I think what you missed was CONSISTENT and CONTINUOUS

      The current calendar used all over the world is based on the purported year of the birth of Jesus. The calendar was concieved around 500AD. It really does not matter if Jesus existed, was just minor person etc. The important point is a consensus of date for the begining of the calendar and continuity there after. There is no ambiguitiy about say the year 1821. There are differences of a day or two for dates, pretty minor in the big scheme of things.

      The Buddhists in India concieved of a calendar with the starting date being the death/passing of the Buddha (could be hypothetical too). That dating system was brought into Sri Lanka during the reign of DevanampiyaTissa (307-267BC) and has and is continously used to this date in Sri Lanka. Everything and anything that has a date uses this convention, pre colonial times and some post.
      On another note, regardless of the Buddha’s philosophical concepts, Buddhism was an extremely organized religion including patronizing Taxila University*. The First Buddhist council was held just three months after the death of the Buddha.

      Puranas know only Chandragupta of the Mauryas there was also another Chandragupta, Chandragupta, of the Guptas who is unknown in the Puranas because he came to prominence in the post-Puranic age. And when we take this latter Chandragupta as the Greek Sandrocottus things make much more sense and the Indian claims of greater antiquity are also understood.

      There is absolutely no ambiguity in the Mahavamsa about Asoka or Chandrgupta Mayura or the years of their reign and Asoka’s conscecration.
      Then did the brahman Canakka anoint a glorious youth, known by the name Candagutta, as king over all Jambudipa, born of a noble clan, the Moriyas, when, filled with bitter hate, he had slain the ninth (Nanda) Dhanananda.

      Twenty-four years he reigned, and his son Bindusära reigned twenty-eight. A hundred glorious sons and one had Bindusara;7 Asoka8 stood high above them all in valour, splendour, might, and wondrous powers. He, when he had slain his ninety-nine brothers born of different mothers, won the undivided sovereignty over all Jambudipa.
      Be it known, that two hundred and eighteen years had passed from the nibbana of the Master unto Asoka’s consecration

      Money as usual
      From that time onwards the revenues of the brotherhood were exceeding great, and since those who were converted later caused the revenues to increase, heretics who had (thereby) lost revenue and honour took likewise the yellow robe, for the sake of revenue, and dwelt together with the bhikkhus. They proclaimed their own doctrines as the doctrine of the Buddha and carried out their own practices even as they wished.

      http://mahavamsa.org/mahavamsa/original-version/05-third-council/

      I suggest you read at the very least the 5th chapter of the Mahavamsa, which referrs to the Third Buddhist council and Asoka in detail.

      Now to dates.
      According to the Mahavamsa Asoka was consecrated in 218 BE (Buddhist Era).
      218 BE is 326BC
      Bindusara regined 28 and Chandragupta reigned 24
      i.e. Chandragupta was consecrated 52years*before Asoka 166BE or 378BC
      So according to Mahavamsa Chandragupta reign 378BC-354BC (24 year reign)

      According to western sources (wiki)
      Chandraguptas Reign was 321-298 BCE (23 years)

      So a discrepancy of 57 years between the Mahavamsa and Western sources.
      Not bad for ancient, almost prehistoric times with back of the envelope calculation.

      *Assuming death and successor being consecrated in the same year.

      Taxila University, 500 BC
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_ancient_Taxila

      1. sbarrkum, further to what you are saying, the chronology of the maurya dynasty can also be cross-referred to by the sangam literature, texts like akananuru and purananuru, which themselves are interpolated by pliny, ptolemy and other graeco-roman writers. The former may not be as reliable as mahavamsa, but they corroborate it.

        1. girmit,
          maurya dynasty can also be cross-referred to by the sangam literature, texts like akananuru and purananuru, which themselves are interpolated by pliny, ptolemy and other graeco-roman writers. The former may not be as reliable as mahavamsa, but they corroborate it.

          Would appreciate a link to translations akananuru and purananuru where Chandragupta is mentioned.

          Much like Asoka was ignored in India, Kashyapa I and Sigiriya is given barely a mention in the Culavamsa (the continuation of the Mahavamsa).

          Sigiriya (Sinha-Giri) is probably one of the most impressive ancient sites in Sri Lanka, but the Culavamsa barely gives any detail of the palace. Possibly because Kashyapa I was a Mahayana follower and the Sigiriya was a Mahayana monastery for many years after (not sure about that).

          To quote from wiki
          Sigiriya is considered to be one of the most important urban planning sites of the first millennium, and the site plan is considered very elaborate and imaginative. The plan combined concepts of symmetry and asymmetry to intentionally interlock the man-made geometrical and natural forms of the surroundings.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigiriya

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashyapa_I_of_Anuradhapura

          The frescoes are much like in Ajanta and few feature dark skinned women, a rarity in South Asia

          At Sigiriya
          https://bit.ly/2uT6YjV

          At Ajanta
          https://bit.ly/2vzViCC

          1. sbarrkum,
            Based on cursory wikipedia review, poems 69, 281, and 375 of the Akananuru mention the Mauryas, and 251 and 265 mention their immediate predecessors the Nandas. For the Purananuru it is poem 175. The following site isn’t the easiest to navigate but you should find the mentioned poems.
            https://sangamtranslationsbyvaidehi.com/

          2. Thanks girmit,

            here are the relevant quotes. It was easy enough just a search for a number. You had done the hard work of quoting the verses.

            Akanānūru 69
            The Mauryas have carved into the
            sky-touching mountains and created paths for
            their chariots with iron wheels to roll smoothly.

            Akanānūru 281
            he went on the path,
            where the Vadukars who have great
            enmity tie the shed feathers of delicate
            peacocks with swaying walks, to their
            strong bows using long straps on the
            edges, shoot rapidly fitting the beauty
            of the tied fibers, creating sounds, and
            lead the Mauryas who desire to conquer
            the South, cutting into the rocks to let their chariot wheels with bright spokes roll.

            Akanānūru 375
            where
            uneducated wasteland warriors shoot
            at travelers on forked paths, just to
            practice arrow skills, even if they don’t
            have any valuables, feed their bodies to
            birds, and packs of foxes gather to eat
            flesh, male vultures with their flocks
            get blood on their huge, joined claws
            and rest on the thick, white branches
            of yā trees with trunks that appear like
            the tusks of elephants that crushed the
            heads and killed Vadukars in their Pāli
            fort with walls like copper that was ruined
            as a duty to his citizens and to finish his
            war work by king Ilamperunchenni, efficient,
            victorious Chōla heir with strong shoulders,
            who established great fame.

            Akanānūru 251
            He has gone on the path where a noble
            elephant with white tusks, that resides in
            a grove dense with teak near endless, wide,
            empty spaces, with no protection, arrogant,
            gored a bright colored tiger that escaped
            from it and caused a large depression,
            where the Mauryan newcomers came with
            their army with horses and fine chariots,
            cut into the mountains with splendid,
            white waterfalls and created paths for their
            chariot wheels to roll smoothly, to attack the
            king of Mōkūr who refused to submit to the
            Kōsars with victory flags on their well-made
            chariots that ride as fast as the wind,
            who celebrated with sweet drums under their
            ancient, old banyan tree in the precious, huge
            common ground.

            Akanānūru 265
            Can wealth be compared to the riches,
            of prosperous Pātalaiputra of the greatly
            famous and battle-victorious
            Nanthars, that were hidden in the Ganges?

            Puranānūru 175, Poet Kallil Āthiraiyanār sang to Āthanungan, Thinai: Pādān, Thurai: Iyan Moli

            You are like the huge, round sun when it
            settled behind the mountain cleft
            cut as a path to the world by the Mauryas
            with sky-high umbrellas, chariots with
            tall banners and wheels with sturdy spokes.

  23. The term foreign, implying not Indian is of course, contentious in the context of the subject under discussion. Your view that all the various North Indian Y types originated in India is not one that I agree with and the Rakhigarhi findings, while not conclusive certainly suggest that some of the dna of North Indian upper castes was not perhaps present in the Harrapans. It must have come from somewhere. An external source is the most likely answer.
    Notwithstanding the fact that various sites mentioned in the Ramayan and Mahabharat in in UP, the Vedic age seems to have been centred on the Saraswati and Indus, not West UP. Whether the Saraswati is the Hraxvati of Afghanistan as Kochhar suggested or the Ghaggar Hakra is not a question I have the expertise to comment on. The latest I read is that the Ghaggar was the original bed of the Sutlej before it turned West instead of flowing South. Be that as it may, if so many Jutts claim to have come out of Jaisalmer there must be an origination in that side rather than UP. It is clear enough from the fact that Jutts are not found west and north of Central Punjab The districts of Gujrat and Feisalabad in Pakistan seem to be about the limit. Beyond that, on the fringes of Punjab and in the former frontier districts a jutt is any uncouth rural yokel.
    The mere fact that jats are the dominant community today in West UP/Haryana and Punjab is not sufficient reason to suppose that they have always been there. This is especially so when their genetic makeup is does not fit into the conventional caste structure. Rather it points to a later migration, no matter how unacceptable that term is; but people migrate all the time. Take the Malvoi after whom the Malwa region in MP is named. Few people know that the Malvoi originally lived in modern Punjab south of the Sutlej around Ludhiana and Firozpur which is also called Malwa to this day. If the racial memory of the jats extends only a thousand years back who knows where they were 3000 years ago.

  24. Something I have noticed about Q in other south Asians: it is present, albeit at a lower frequency. 6.46% in UP Brahmins, 6.25% in MP Gonds, 6.1% in New Delhi Hindus, 5.26% in Bihar Brahmins .etc. However all of these are from fairly small sample sizes, so IDK if it is all that reliable. For some comparison of results with different sample sizes: Sengupta 2006 used 21 Pathans which gave a Q frequency of 9.5% while Firasat 2006 used 96 Pashtuns which gave a Q frequency of 5.2%.

    Though I do notice one thing: little bit more Q in eastern populations living around what used to be the eastern domain of the Indus valley cultures than in say Sindhis (4.8%), Pakistani Punjabis (4.17%) and Gujarat tribals (2.8%) who live around what would have been the western domain of the IVC and pre-IVC cultures. Once again, the sample sizes were all kind of small (below 100), with the exception of south Gujarat tribals which had a sample size of 284.

    The eastern domain wasn’t a very new thing either. The neolithic of UP (Jhusi) can be dated back to around 7000 BC, only a little later than the neolithic of Mehrgarh. So if there really is a difference, then this could be an old one.

  25. @girmit
    Thanks for your explanation. Anyways there is similar name exists in Kazakhstan remains(I might be mistaken/wrong correlate).
    @thewarlock
    We speak Indo-aryan dialect with heavy Tamil influence(Lati) and follow Dravidian kinship. We were isolated group of 9-12 families and rare times, input of daughters came from our other group. Its easy to conserve those sort of segments and have huge health disorders.
    Britishers have written huge amount on phenotypes of Chitpavan Brahmins

  26. Onlooker wrote:

    “Whether the Saraswati is the Hraxvati of Afghanistan as Kochhar suggested or the Ghaggar Hakra is not a question I have the expertise to comment on.”

    The Rg-Veda in Afghanistan? A review of Rajesh Kochhar: The Vedic People

    http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/reviews/kochhar.html

    “All in all, I (Elst) don’t find any compelling reason, among those attempted by Kochhar, to relocate the Saraswati from India to Afghanistan.”

  27. Correction: The 2018 paper did mention the subclade, I just somehow didn’t remember the one. It was C-M356, also known as the old C5, also known as the new C1b1a1. Here is the yfull tree for C1b:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/C-F1370/

    Here is the yfull tree for C1b1:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/C-K281/

    This should be C1b1a1 (since the other branch is B65/C1b1a2) :
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/C-K98/

    I can’t say with complete certainty, but this looks like an AASI lineage.

  28. “no compelling reason” but no refutation either. Elst has no refutation either of the longitude argument that the Aryans were located at 35 degrees North. He suggests, weakly, that it may have been Kashmir, not Afghanistan. Nonsense! I have spent more than half my life in Kashmir, and know plenty about the mythmaking in that place.At the presumed time of the reference Kashmir was in a neolithic stage of civilization with an aboriginal population that has no connection with the so-called Aryans.
    Nor does the effort to superimpose Saraswati on the Ghaggar sustain the evidence that it was the mother of all rivers. The Ghaggar is a seasonal stream with no snow fed sources that is only ever in flood once or twice during the monsoon in episodic heavy rains. Even combined with the Sutlej it could not have been the foaming torrent it was supposed to have been.

  29. onlooker wrote:

    “Nor does the effort to superimpose Saraswati on the Ghaggar sustain the evidence that it was the mother of all rivers. The Ghaggar is a seasonal stream with no snow fed sources that is only ever in flood once or twice during the monsoon in episodic heavy rains. Even combined with the Sutlej it could not have been the foaming torrent it was supposed to have been.”

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-53489-4?fbclid=IwAR2wbUWzzICAW5LXIEe30Oo3UuI8HTPzAnpyHgSeQF0W-TPp21ybhkfr8Ak

    “Here, we present unequivocal evidence for the Ghaggar’s perennial past by studying temporal changes of sediment provenance along a 300 km stretch of the river basin. This is achieved using 40Ar/39Ar ages of detrital muscovite and Sr-Nd isotopic ratios of siliciclastic sediment in fluvial sequences, dated by radiocarbon and luminescence methods. We establish that during 80-20 ka and 9-4.5 ka THE RIVER WAS PERENNIAL and was receiving sediments from the Higher and Lesser Himalayas. The latter phase can be attributed to the reactivation of the river by the distributaries of the Sutlej. ” (emphasis added)”

    http://omilosmeleton.gr/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/IELIAI.pdf

    From section 17
    “G. Possehl examined (1998) all the palaeoenvironmental and geological data relevant to the
    Sarasvatī river and concluded that the river could have flowed down to the ocean only before
    3200 at the very latest and, more probably, before 3800! He re-stated his finds in his study of
    2002 (pp 8-9). P-H. Francfort has been just as certain of a date 3600-3800 in his survey of 1992.”

    Also see sections 15 and 16 below about the linguistic arguments

    http://omilosmeleton.gr/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Vedic_and_Avestan.pdf

    ” Some linguists claim that the name Sarasvatī was given to this river (its desiccation notwithstanding) in memory of the Arachosian river Haraxvaiti (in Iran)which the Indoaryans had left behind. Here now we have, beyond absurdity, both inanity and dishonesty”

    1. Yes if the Sutlej once ran in the the Ghaggar channel, but hardly likely to make it the great river that the Saraswati is said to have been.

  30. One wonders why the Yamuna is given such short shrift in the Vedic period if the Saraswati was indeed the Ghaggar. Here is a substantial river at barely 80 kms distance from the Ghaggar, yet the Indus gets more notice.
    “Here now we have, beyond absurdity, both inanity and dishonesty”. Why should this be dishonest or inane? Place names are carried along all the time. Look at the names the Anglo Saxons carried over to the US. The people who migrated into the mountains Bhadarwah of J&K named a local stream as Ganga.

    1. The people who migrated into the mountains Bhadarwah of J&K named a local stream as Ganga.

      I our part of the world ganga means river, eg Kalu Ganga, Mahaweli Ganga.

      One South Indian friend (Kannada) whom I took around Sri Lanka wasnt too impressed by the width of the rivers. Became more impressed when I said, these rivers dont dry up and are the same width all year round.

      Even more impressed when I said only necessary to dig 5-10 feet to get water.

    2. I think the whole Saraswati myth has to do with its going extinct. I dont think it has the same place as either Ganges or Indus in Vedic/Puranic lore.

      Perhaps during the Vedic period , aryans haven’t moved as far East to FULLY comprehend Yamuna’s extent. While Saraswati originated and ends it “Vedic homeland”. I think Yamuna gets its place in the Puranas though.

  31. “Much like Asoka was ignored in India, Kashyapa I and Sigiriya is given barely a mention in the Culavamsa”

    Kashyapa is such a N-Indian (Aryan) sounding name that it seems out of place in Sri Lanka.

    “I our part of the world ganga means river, eg Kalu Ganga, Mahaweli Ganga.”

    Man we sort of colonized places which we dont even know of. LOL

    1. Saurav

      Kashyapa is such a N-Indian (Aryan) sounding name that it seems out of place in Sri Lanka.

      Buddhism and Pali brought a lot of North Indian names. Genes too probably.

      Kashyapa (Kassapa in Pali proper).

      a) Mahā Kāśyapa or Mahākāśyapa (Pali: Mahākassapa) was one of the principal disciples of Gautama Buddha. He is regarded in Buddhism as an enlightened disciple,

      b) Kassapa Buddha (Pāli), known as Kāśyapa in Sanskrit, is one of the ancient Buddhas whose biography is chronicled in chapter 24 of the Buddhavamsa, one of the books of the Pāli Canon

      Ganga vs Gangaa
      Long dragged out a is the Ganges
      Short a sound is river

      1. “Kassapa”

        Oh man , is that the origin of the name? Have a SL friend who’s named that. I think even he doesn’t know that. LOL.

  32. onlooker wrote:

    “Why should this be dishonest or inane? Place names are carried along all the time. ”

    Read the whole paragraph:

    “Observe now two absurdities implicit in the Doctrine. The Iranians who stayed put in Iran lost their own root *har/*hǝrᵊ- or whatever and all derivatives, while the IAs who moved further away retained this thoroughbred IE root and all its ramifications.
    And then they gave the name Sarasvatī (with the change of ha > sa) not to a large river like the Indus but to a dried-up stream in memory of the Haraxvaiti in Arachosia! Or, an even more incredible scenario, the IAs on arrival at Saptasindhu proceeded to generate
    out of the PIIr *harah stem, verb-conjugations, numerous nouns and adjectives and what else, which are by a most happy coincidence cognates with lexemes in other IE branches!”

    “The only reasonable explanations for this situation is that the Iranians had been with the Indoaryans and at some unknown date moved out of larger Saptasindhu west and north into Iran”

  33. “And then they gave the name Sarasvatī (with the change of ha > sa) not to a large river like the Indus but to a dried-up stream in memory of the Haraxvaiti in Arachosia!”
    How do we know that they did? The Saraswati is supposed to have been dead well before the Vedic period. If it was such a massive river why would the IAs gave that name to the non-river that is the Ghaggar?.

  34. Onlooker wrote:

    “How do we know that they did? The Saraswati is supposed to have been dead well before the Vedic period. If it was such a massive river why would the IAs gave that name to the non-river that is the Ghaggar?”

    Because it was a mighty flowing river when the Rig Vedic poets saw it in real time before it dried up around 2000 BCE as the geologists tell us! They did not come from anywhere as theorized or more aptly fantasized by Kochhar, and the AIT dating of the Rig Veda is wrong.

    Do you see the inherent circularity in these “arguments”?

    1. Mayuresh M Kelkar wrote, “Because it was a mighty flowing river when the Rig Vedic poets saw it in real time before it dried up around 2000 BCE as the geologists tell us! They did not come from anywhere as theorized or more aptly fantasized by Kochhar, and the AIT dating of the Rig Veda is wrong.
      Do you see the inherent circularity in these “arguments”?”
      The circularity is, if I may say, on the other foot. If your premise is that the scA (so called Aryans) originated in North India then you find in a dried up river bed confirmation of your premise that they must have been there when it was a foaming stream. If the Ghaggar dried up before the arrival of the scA it is more likely that to have been a foaming river at 35N latitude that was actually the Saraswati rather than something to which the place name was given. Why did the Vedic people not know the Ganga at all and the Yamuna hardly?
      I would think that the Rakhigarhi findings should have given pause to this line of argumentation. There is I daresay, no disputing the age of the mature and late Harappan civilizations. And if they were not scA where were the Aryans then?

      1. “I would think that the Rakhigarhi findings should have given pause to this line of argumentation.”

        You haven’t been following this debate long then. To the Indian Nationalist, this is a battle for their very identity. They won’t let a pesky thing like facts get in the way. You could take them in a time-machine to witness the Aryans swooping down on their AASI ancestors, and they wouldn’t concede.

  35. Onlooker wrote:
    “The circularity is, if I may say, on the other foot. If your premise is that the scA (so called Aryans) originated in North India then you find in a dried up river bed confirmation of your premise that they must have been there when it was a foaming stream.”
    The premise is really very simple. The Rig Vedic poets saw the river in real time and in the Nadi Sukta hymn they praised it along with the Gang and Yamuna. The rivers are mentioned from EAST to WEST.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadistuti_sukta
    Since we know that the river dried up before 2000 BCE the Rig Veda must be dated prior to that date and hence the AIT dating is wrong.
    “Why did the Vedic people not know the Ganga at all and the Yamuna hardly?”
    They knew it. Those rivers appear also in the Nadi Sukta.

    “If the Ghaggar dried up before the arrival of the scA it is more likely that to have been a foaming river at 35N latitude that was actually the.. ”

    THERE is the circularity. The drying up of the river is used to support the AIT and the AIT is supported by the drying up of the river!

    1. Any reason why the Rig Veda hymns cannot be translations of hymns composed earlier in a different language?

    2. The circularity lies in assuming that the Vedas were written on the banks of the Ghaggar; thereafter you assume that because the river dried that long ago, (more that 3000BC) the RV Aryans must have been there in 3000 BC. And you do not explain the Rakhigarhi anomaly

  36. Radio dating at Dholavira shows occupation from 3500 to around 1700 BC, and it is agreed that all the great centres found, of Harappan culture, declined around the same time, perhaps because of shifting climate. So, if the Harappans occupied the Indus basis up to the Ghaggar, and even beyond the Yamuna, where were those Aryans located then, composing their texts, if they lived coeval with the Harappans. You may answer that they were both coeval and coterminous with Harappans-In which case the question is why did they not interbreed with Harappans.
    One salient fact emerges from the genetic data: steppe dna was a later introduction to the subcontinent. A clue is that steppe dna is diluted in India, following a cline in the NS direction instead of the SN direction as would be the case if your theory was correct,

    1. Tell me something Onlooker, (u seem to know this stuff), what happens if they really find a “Aryan” place around the Harrapan time line. Like co-existing with them. Is there no possibility of that ever happening?

      Because just yesterday i read somwhere they found some random city near Benaras which was around the Harrapan time and its mention is in Rig Veda (making it an Aryan city) .

  37. Onlooker:

    See the maps yourself. The ancient courses of Sutluj and Yamuna have been mapped in great detail.

    https://stoicsadhu.com/locating-the-sarasvati-river-and-dating-the-rigveda-through-nadistuti-sukta/

    “Now, when archeologists (sic) looked at the site of Kalibangan they realized that Kalibangan had been completely abandoned by the late period of Indus Valley Civilization, which is around 1900BC. So we know that by 1900BC Ghaggar Hakra River had completely dried.”

    “The Pakistani Archeologist (sic) Rafique Mughal provided a clue to it in the 1970s. Look at this map here. This map shows all the position of the Indus Valley Civilization urban phase sites overlapped on the river systems. Rafique Mughal made an interesting observation here that there is a 100Km stretch on the Ghaggar Hakra River in Cholistan area of Pakistan where there are no urban sites at all.”

    The existence of a large river has already been confirmed by world’s best known scientific journal article.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=Nature+article+Saraswati&rlz=1C1GGRV_enUS760US760&oq=Nature+article++Saraswati&aqs=chrome..69i57.13151j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

    The linguistic absurdities of deriving Sarasvati from Haraiwaiti have already been pointed out by Kazanas’ article already posted.

    There is really not much more to say.

  38. Could you try Bengali Brahmins. They have much less e asian, kinda falls near pastuns and khas brahmins, who were tested in Narasimhan.

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