Open Thread – Brown Pundits

382 Comments

Talk about whatever you want.

One thing: most of your comments on “OIT” end up making me more skeptical of “OIT” (sometimes blog contributor JR is an exception insofar as he tends to present his arguments more tightly and offer plausible hypotheses). Half the time is spent in arguments that I don’t even necessarily hold. Anyway, just had to be honest about this.

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382 Replies to “Open Thread – Brown Pundits”

  1. India once again scoring own goals through their terrible messaging. This is the problem with too much nationalism, it makes you stupid. Some nationalist parties like AKP’s Erdogan only act stupid to exploit stupid voters, but the BJP is actually stupid.

    Why claim China has invaded your territory if you aren’t either going to:
    A: fight them back, play to your nationalist base, and show the world India is tough and China ain’t shit.
    B: portray China as a bully and make your case internationally, avoiding costly military mobilization,.martial allies (like US) for help.

    Instead of doing one correctly, they just half-assed both, and accomplished neither. And then Modi goes and says China never was in India territory to begin with! Agh! For fucks sake man!

    You are giving the territory to China, and doing so after your troops were wrecked (making India look weak and conquered), but can’t even martial international support because you are claiming that territory was always China’s to begin with (so China did nothing wrong), and are implying the Indian soldiers were rightfully killed for trespassing in Chinese territory!

    To top it all off, India is NOW spending resources to organize lots of military at the border (which everyone knows they will not use). China had no decent plan coming in , but has somehow accomplished everything they could have dreamed through horrific mismanagement by India. Taken the territory they wanted, made India look weak, made themselves look strong, and all without looking like an imperialist bully.

    I thought India flubbed Balakot last year but this was just awful.

    1. Totally agree. China has shown “Hindu Hriday Samrat” his place (as we say in Urdu “auqaat”).

      If Pakistan had killed 20 Indian soldiers, India would have attempted an invasion by now. But since it’s China, their great “nationalist” leader says “No one crossed into Indian territory”. So Indian soldiers crossed into China and were killed in self-defense?

      India can only bully smaller countries like Nepal. It is no match for nuclear-armed Pakistan and certainly not for China.

      “Hindu Hriday Samrat” is right about one thing though. Ladakh is not “Indian” territory. it is part of Occupied Kashmir.

      1. “If Pakistan had killed 20 Indian soldiers, India would have attempted an invasion by now.”

        Like the way we attempted to invade Pakistan, just after Kargil-99 and Mumbai 2008, right?

        1. If not an invasion, you all would have done some “surgical strikes”.

          The point is you people are not even capable of taking on the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, let alone China. And you think you are a “superpower”. Indians are seriously the most delusional people on earth.

          As a Pakistani, I’m sitting back and enjoying your national humiliation. Not above a bit of schadenfreude.

          1. Your schadenfreude is illusory. The fact is there is much more information coming from India , both from the govt and press. In the case of China, there is a total blackout as in other things. Very likely Chinese casualties were more than India’s.

          2. Pakistan’s tactics are the self-defeating ones of 18th century Indian princes who bitterly fought each other and had tremendous schadenfreude in a beggar-thy-neighbor policy , ceding all their sovereignty to the British.

          3. VijayVan,

            “Very likely China’s casualties were more than India’s”– If that were the case, “Hindu Hriday Samrat” would not be shamefully lying and saying that China did not invade India’s territory.

            You people are totally delusional. You are nothing in front of China.

          4. India-China clashes in Ladakh have given Pakistanis like Kabir an overdose of joy and sent them to the seventh heaven as if Pakistan is going to gain something from it. China has long term strategies in the Himalayas to grab land and India is also wiser to it and prepared in wherewithal and psychologically. In any case China gives a fuck to Pakistan as all it’s policies are self centered . Even as the irrational exuberance of Pakistan is on full throttle , it is losing women and sovereignty to China.

            This is not 1962 , where Nehru was under an illusion the two asian neighbors won’t fight. The shattering of that illusion more than loss of men was a shock to India in 1962. The naive trust with China when India was instrumental in supporting China against Taiwan or bringing it to Bandung conference has long gone.

            Now not only India , all other countries – except China’s lapdog Pakistan – are aware of China’s expansionist designs.

          5. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

            As long as China makes Hindutva India suffer, it’s a good day. I hate Hindutvadis with all my heart. You people are absolute scum.

      2. India could turn the Islamic republic into glass if it felt like it but would likely rather not risk losing Mumbai. Given how the energy sector is beggaring the country I doubt we will enjoy being a client state of China in the forthcoming decades. Meanwhile we can continue holding Kashmir Black Day while we fall further and further behind Bangladesh (Best Pakistan).

        1. Against the Islamic Republic, India is only capable of “surgical strikes”. That’s the benefit of being a nuclear-power.

          Nice to see you have such negative views of your own country and are on the side of Hindutvadi India.

          1. Lol. Hardly. I have the capacity to recognise 70 years of antagonism towards our largest neighbour have left us far weaker and poorer than we otherwise could have been. And seriously warped our domestic culture.

          2. That largest neighbor is a hostile power which continues to Occupy Kashmir and which helped to break Pakistan into two (in Mrs. Gandhi’s own words).

            As an ethnic Kashmiri, I will never ever forgive the Occupation of my people.

      3. I’m sure all those Tibetan Buddhists in Ladakh rue the day that India stole Kashmir from the Land of the Pure.

        1. India stole Kashmir from the Kashmiri people.

          I have never said that “Kashmir banega Pakistan”. It is for the Kashmiri people to determine their own future.

          And Ladakh is only part of the former princely state because it was conquered by the Hindu Dogra.

          1. It is nonsense to say that India stole Kashmir from the Kashmiri people-as nonsensical as it is to say that Jinnah stole Punjab from the Punjabis. The Sovereign of J&K Maharaja Hari Singh acceded formally to India.

        2. We lost Bangladesh ourselves by treating it like a colony to be drained. India stepped in before we could slaughter and rape more of the people who wanted us gone.

          1. I’m not going to defend West Pakistan’s treatment of East Pakistan. But the fact that the two wings of Pakistan were separated by a hostile power certainly helped East Pakistan to secede. We are not going to forgive that.

      4. Ladakh was won by Gulab Singh’s general Zorawar Singh on behalf of the Sikh empire. Just as Gilgit was won by the Sikhs and then lost by Gulab Singh to be re-won by Ranbir Singh. The British won Hunza and the areas adjacent to Chitral.
        Kashmir came into possession of Ladakh, Gilgit Baltistan and Jammu as a result of Nehru giving Sh. Abdullah dominion over the bits of the former Princely State that Pakistan had failed to occupy. Ladakh was never Kashmir.
        When the East India Company put Sikh territories on sale they included all the hilly area North of the Beas river. Unfortunately for the Dogras, Gulab Singh could only muster enough to buy territory North of the Ravi. Had he had the resources to accept the original British offer no doubt Kashmiri fantasists would be claiming half of Himachal Pradesh including Chamba, Kangra, Kulu, Lahaul and Spiti as occupied Kashmir too

        1. The simple point was that Ladakh is part of the erstwhile state of Kashmir only because of the Dogra conquest. Before that it was part of Tibet.

          As far the disputed territory goes, Pakistan claims the entire state since the entire thing was Muslim majority. Kargil is still Muslim majority.

          When I say “occupied Kashmir” I am talking about the entire former princely state under India’s control.

          1. Your only argument for Kashmir being rightfully Pakistani (or not Indian at least) is the violation of the self-determination of the Kashmiri people. Right?

            So why does it matter if Ladakh and other non-Muslim parts of Kashmir were part of a princely state with dumb borders? Putting Buddhists from Ladakh and Hindus from Jammu into Pakistan (or even an independent Muslim-majority Kashmir) would be hell for them, and it certainly wouldn’t be something they want. No right-thinking person who cares about the plights of oppressed minorities or the self-determination of peoples could support such a thing.

          2. The greatest Indian of all–Pandit Nehru– promised the people of the princely state a plebiscite.

            I would personally be OK with a zonal plebiscite. If the Buddhists of Ladakh and the Hindus of Jammu want to stay with Hindu India, that’s fine. But the Valley would certainly want out. Kargil is Muslim majority and would want to join the Valley (they didn’t even want to be part of the “Union Territory” of Ladakh). The Chenab Valley in Jammu province would probably want to join the Valley.

            India would be left with Leh and two and a half districts in Jammu province. Fine by me.

            Muslim-majority areas cannot permanently live under the Hindu boot.

          3. The only Disputed Territory is Occupied Kashmir. And only the Kashmiri people were promised a plebiscite.

            Muslims in “India proper” are the descendants of those who chose to stay in India at Partition. Their ancestors made their choices.

          4. The name of the territory of the Princely State was Jammu and Kashmir, and Ladakh belonged to a Dogra King. It became the independent State of Jammu and Kashmir for a few months before acceding to India where it was till recently the State of Jammu and Kashmir.

          5. Onlooker,

            Repeat yourself all you like. My country calls all of the former princely state under India’s control OCCUPIED Kashmir and I will continue to use that convention.

            Deal with it.

    2. I dont know where did u come across that Chinese doesn’t come across as bully, in recent engagement. I mean unless u r reading global times. Everyone knows what happened, its different thing to acknowledge publicly.

      On International help i think unless in case of full scale war, India would not Marshall allies. Kargil would be a good example.It has no outstanding military arrangement with anyone. On diplomatic front Chinese have done far more on other fronts for so much longer with hardly any blowback.

      The choice is to de-escalate to live and fight another day, or to escalate and be prepared for a limited war. From what i can see the only non-partisan people who are criticizing Modi are mostly ex-army men. Others had chosen a side and their views b4 the conflict.

      The doves of yesterday , have become nationalist today, the nationalist of yesterday, pragmatist today

    3. I mean the US blames China already for this fiasco. That’s been reported on already. India and Australia recently signed an agreement to use each other’s bases. And India got more votes than Ireland and Norway to be a rotating UNSC member. Many reasons for that but clearly India has a good international image for UN leadership. It is also going to be part of the leadership of the WHO and push for upcoming Corona probe.

      And yeah I have no idea why Modi didn’t admit territory was lost. Disputed territory became Chinese territory. He should have just said it.

      But yeah India is in trouble in general with Nepal. Commies have taken over. And now China is emboldened to do more. This is quite messy. I can see why Pak is gleeful. But China is not to be underestimated. Once again India got a hard lesson.

      1. I live in Yorkshire and also lived in the Midlands. Ill tell you if you go to foster care homes in the northern towns. It is filled with Zayn Maliks and Dynamos in every alley. You will see more Pakistani boys with white girls than any other combination in these parts. If you think grooming gangs are rape then you’re wrong. I can post thousands of askfm accounts of white females in these towns admitting they’re Pakki shaggers.
        Here is proof down here
        https://mobile.twitter.com/svhevns/status/1086751355312787458

        There is a reason the BNP and Britain first use words such as Pakki shagger to describe these females and not Indian shagger.

        Also another fact is Mirpuri guys are much tougher than black guys. Ive seen Mirpuri guys fight white and black Nazis at the same time and drop the boys clean to the ground. Go to any prison in the northern towns. The Mirpuris run it by margins. If you Google the most dangerous areas of britain and homicide rates. Its not brixton where black guys live and its not liverpool either. Its all mostly in the west yorkshire regions around bradford, oldham, burnley, manchester, and parts of Birmingham. Another fact is Mirpuris are heavily more marginalized than black guys in the sports areas of Britain and income areas. Black people have higher incomes than Pakistanis. Also black people integrate much easier with white people than Pakistanis. If you go through the different MMA leagues in britain like Combat Challenge, Solid Impact, and also UKMMA. Its dominated by Mirpuris and Pakistani Pothwari guys
        Look at this Solid Impact poster, half of the fighters are Pakistanis but these are all in the rundown minor leagues of Britain

        https://images.tapology.com/poster_images/39724/profile/Solid-Impact-Operation-Takeover-poster.jpg?1569601169

        Even with undefeated records these guys dont get sponsorship for bigger fights like black guys in london who have horrible records would get. An example is Shoaib Yousef who is a top notch fighter who has won European MMA gold medals and fought in 3 major domestic MMA leagues but never got a legit professional promoter. You think Amir Khan in boxing is suppose to be good? The WBC champion at the moment was Muhammad Waseem but never got any promotions by any Pakistanis or British sponsors and were forced to go to some Korean promoters to get promoted. Even the British Olympic boxing team has Pakistanis on it. You’re honestly comparing Pakistanis to Indians in terms of getting females or in fighting sports? Ive never met an Indian in britain who can fight but met dozens of Pakistani guys who throw down. Go look up 2 Pakistanis vs 60 english defense league members on YouTube. I find it funny that some gujju little gujarati Indian guy on the internet is trying to act like Indians are in similar leagues with Pakistanis in britain when it comes to throwing down. Where are all the Indian gujju guys against nazi tattooed bald guys when they burn your neighborhoods down? No where and name me a time when a bunches of Indian guys ever fought back against white and black guys in Britain in any major riot? Never, the Pakistanis in the Lozell riots killed black guys after they started the riots in lozell. The Pakistani guys injured 200 police officers in the bradford riots also. All these race riots were necessary because white and black guys regarded Indian desi(gujarati) guys like you as weak and cowardly people who cant fight back and would just take abuse. This is exactly what happened too. You Indians should never think you’re in the same league as Pakistani guys in toughness and ability because everytime when it was time to show your fist in Britain. You ran for your houses and this includes all your Indian Sikh coward friends too. Its just Mirpuris and Pathans who fought back. The Lynx gang in the 1980s was a Mirpuri and Pathan gang.

        Another misconception is the looks factor. Most Mirpuris are not even brown, they’re olive white toned in Britain, look at Meggy Khan the drug dealer in areas of Bradford. He looks nothing like any Indian person. A lot of the Mirpuris have blue and green eye in the northern towns. Look at Sham Idrees the Mirpuri Kashmiri youtuber in Britain. These are typical looks for Mirpuris. The ONLY thing that differentiates Pakistanis from black guys is black guys and girls marry out and assimilate with whites by a lot. At least 59% of black females marry white guys in Britain statistically.
        Almost 35% of black caribbean women marry white guys too
        These numbers are way too high for black females marrying out.
        The difference is Pakistanis don’t assimilate with mainstream society in general but run the most dangerous parts of the country generally
        https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160107132108/http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/resources/figure2_tcm77-369553.png

      2. You live in new jersey and you want to talk about Mirpuris? The Mirpuris would run New Jersey and New York if they were there. Also majority of Mirpuris I’ve met a scores lighter than Indians with colored. Meggy Khan, Sham Idrees, Gucci Khan are all Mirpuri or half Mirpuri. In America 99% of Americans consider Pakistanis as middle eastern and even the government labels Pakistanis as a greater middle eastern land. I dont think Pashtuns/Baloch/Mirpuris/Wakhis/Paharis/Northern Punjabis look at all similar to Indian people. Many Hispanics and MENA people look more Indian than most of these men. They’re just 500,000 Pakistanis in all of America and they’re Muhajirs and Lahoris. They look like Indian people and act like them too.

    4. Typical Indian behaviour, half bluff and bluster, half stern determination, and failing at both. This is what Vajpayee did as well when he marched his men up the hill like the good old Duke of York, and then down again, after the terror attack on Pakistan.

      1. yup even pro India parts of reddit and quora are angry. Modi behaved just like the former Poet PM. India needs someone with resolve of Indira. Maybe that MP from Ladakh. He shows fiery promise.

        1. 90% of MMA fighters in the higher division weights in britain and lower division weights are Mirpuri Pakistanis. All this brown guys this and brown guys that. All Mirpuris look lighter than MENA and Hispanic guys and much taller with fast hands too meaning they’re not pot bellies either like Indian guys are. Okcupid said Indian guys but not Pakistani guys. Half of Pakistan is Afghanistan and Afpak is a known middle eastern concept land in America. According to 2016 survey, Pakistanis were rated as the third most attractive men whereas Indian guys never make top 100, and don’t get me started on how nasty Indian women look.

  2. https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/pak-origin-plotter-tahawwur-rana-behind-26-11-mumbai-attacks-arrested-faces-extradition/story-JAd01AdFnQyfZT3QWztbnO.html

    Pak origin Mumbai 26/11 plotter Tahawwur Rana arrested – faces extradition to India

    “Rana, 59, a known close associate of David Coleman Headley – one of the main conspirators behind the attacks on India’s financial hub that killed 166 people – was serving a 14-year sentence in a Los Angeles federal prison when he was granted an early release last week because of poor health and being infected by the coronavirus.”

  3. Counties far poorer or smaller than India could have achieved outcomes far better with better management from the top.

    The events as we know them still don’t add up, despite the cottage industry in satellite imagery that’s sprung up. By keeping everyone in the dark, the govt is only playing into the CCP’s hands and giving yet more fuel to the opposition. And the messaging has been contradictory and terrible. I don’t know why they don’t come out with the full story to garner some international support, the time for giving the opponent a chance to make a face saving exit is long gone.

    Like most things, I think the blame lies somewhere in the babu-dominated defence and diplomatic establishment that looks at the world based on what it wants to see as opposed to the ground reality.

    But I think there’s more coming.

    1. “The events as we know them still don’t add up”

      Some of the events don’t add up, others pretty much do.

      The north section revolves around the Galwan valley:
      https://www.google.com/maps/place/The+Gallowan+River/@34.7651295,78.2024173,11244m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x38fe8ef048f02ea9:0x2ceab753912f46f1!8m2!3d34.7589668!4d78.1701053

      See the dashed line? That’s the LAC on the ground, PP14 where the fighting broke out is in that area. The local Chinese commanders had agreed to withdraw their positions but did not follow through on the agreement.
      https://www.hindustantimes.com/static/ht2020/4/SATELLITE-IMAGES-SHOW-BUILD-UP.png

      The north-south valley to the left of the image is where the DS-DBO road is being built. The Galwan river is in the West-East valley which opens up to the Shyok river.

      Now keep in mind the diagram below:
      https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Aksai_Chin_Sino-Indian_border_map.png

      The pink dashed line to west of the blue line is the LAC, the area India lost in the 1962 war is the region between the blue line and the western pink dashed line. You can observe that there’s a slight gap between the Shyok river and the pink dashed line where Galwan is written. That small region corresponds to the western part of the Galwan valley that remains in Indian control and shown in the first link above.

      What this means is that China is now claiming new territory that they never claimed before: Galwan valley right upto the Shyok river, i.e. the entire western section that’s under Indian control. Even Zhou Enlai didn’t claim it in his map which he presented to Nehru.

      Now as for Pangong Tso: https://d2c7ipcroan06u.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/P1.jpg

      As said before, China claimed the LAC was upto finger 2 while India claimed upto finger 8. Both sides patrolled the region from 4 to 8. The crisis was set off by the Chinese buildup as shown in the red circles, which are tactically advantageous as they are on higher ground, and blocked the path of the Indian patrols.

      Before there used to be an agreement with the local level commanders on both sides about having a no-man zone in between the LAC where both could patrol and brandish slogans etc. but carry no weapons. What has happened is that both in Galwan and Pangong Tso, there isn’t a no-man’s land anymore, the LAC is eye-to-eye in these areas after the Chinese attempted a coordinated takeover of no-man’s land in contravention of local agreements. The only way this could happen was orders from someone higher-up, possibly the top.

      The following conclusions can be drawn from this experience:

      1. At the local level, there is unlikely to be the necessary trust from the Indian side to draw up such agreements again, primarily because the Chinese follow them only until they sense an opportunity, move in with machinery and large numbers, and claim that the area under their control always belonged to China.

      2. At the strategic level, China is now claiming areas to the west of their 1960 claim line, which effectively means that they are liable to expand their claims whenever they see an opening, thus any agreements drawn between the two countries would be void when China does not have the use for it anymore. This will make any such border agreements far more difficult because there is no faith that China will follow through on its promises.

      3. Modi is unlikely to make any trips to China for the rest of his term in office. While some analyst attribute fault to him for mismanaging the relationship this is not really the case. Xi appears to desire a big brother relationship with all of China’s neighbors and his behaviour is unlikely to change. One could compare this to what the Philippines tried to do, get closer to China with Duterte in power by ending the lease of American military bases, then figuring out that China doesn’t see it as its equal and occupies the Spratleys anyway, and ending with the Philippines inviting the Americans back in.

      1. Thanks for the detailed response mate, I’m mostly aware of the situational background.

        I’m not interested in keeping this vexed topic of discussion going ad infinitum, but the bits that don’t add up to me are –

        – it doesn’t make sense for even military folk to disagree among each other where the LAC lies in the P Tso area, or even the naming convention of the ridges. And I don’t believe that no de-facto, agreed maps exist that can be shared on this. This is two ostensibly modern nations we’re talking about with satellites of their own, how come they can’t agree on a damn line in the sand

        – the events of the deadly clash are still murky to me. Where exactly did it happen? And if there were significant casualties on the Chinese side (I’m not disagreeing with that), then weapons were probably used by the Indians as well – knives maybe? Maybe the Sikhs brought out their Kirpans? Lol. There are survivors from that scuffle who should be able to pinpoint these details, surely that should give the Indians enough proof to take international if it indeed was a pre meditated attack on the Indian side of the LAC. What’s being hidden?

        I believe these things will reveal themselves in due course, but the govt secrecy isn’t helping one bit

  4. This following comment was misplaced, sorry Anan….

    Taqiyyaman: “My word is my bond!”

  5. Steve Hsu was forced to resign his position at Michigan State for observing there was no racial bias in police shootings, a finding by black Harvard economics professor Roland Fryer. Twenty years ago I used to think people in America were living in the best country on Earth. Now it is in the midst of the world’s most boring and lame civil war. No person of intelligence with self-respect can say what they think without self-censoring or knowingly mouthing moral platitudes they know to be false. It is a Dar al Harb where taqqiya reigns.

    1. Yeah. I actually signed the petition supporting Hsu with name and title (and I don’t like showing my identity online). But I had to, for myself if nothing else.

      America is definitely on a bad trajectory, both in government and civic society. We will see what happens.

  6. The only positive thing to come out of the clash , hopefully is the pack up of India “s left liberal cottage industry of media , colleges, political parties and babudom, to get into full on overt alliance with USA.

    Again, knowing India, hopeful but not optimistic.

  7. India couldn’t do anything against Pakistan let alone China. Surrender is natural outcome of same mindset. Indians know well in advance that they cannot win against them but that shouldn’t matter.

    If India want to stop China then make cost of war prohibitive for both sides even with possibility of ending on losing side. This is what Pakistan have done successfully.

    China has been watching Indian surgical strikes and have come to conclusion that its worth taking risk against them to gain some more strategic land in Ladakh. 27th Feb humiliation played huge role here.

    1. China told India that unilaterally making changes to the status of the Disputed Territory would have consequences. It is those consequences that you are seeing on the ground.

    2. harder to do because India is way more economically dependent on China than Pak is on India. I mean India can attempt some.cross border terrorism and support separatism directly In Tibet but China will kill a shit ton of people to put it down and will block any international media from seeing it. India has a lot more to lose with asymmetric warfare with China than Pak has with India. China is a superpower, economically and militarily. It’s economy is interwoven with everyone else’s. It’s not so easy to play Jihad games with them.

      I sincerely hope they clean out terrorists in Pak once CPEC is done. I hope that in order to protect their road, they wipe out the Jihadis.

      India is also not a military Junta state where the armed forces owns the whole country and participates in massive rent extraction. Pak has average HDI of Bihar and is falling behind in GDP per capita to a nation it recently committed horrific genocide against, all the while siphoning more and more.money to its military, including Corona aid. Also, they received and continue to receive military equipment and billions in aid from the top global super power for decades. All of of this makes Pak a lot better at punching above its weight militarily but at the cost of their nation moving forward.

      India has not played that game. Hence for its size, it’s military is worse off.

      1. lol too many it’s vs. its errors

        Before I hurt the sentiments of our resident grammarians, I apologize 😉

        1. LoL!
          It is ‘ITS’ not ‘IT’S’, you uneducated HINDUTAVADI…
          You shouldn’t be commenting on anything …
          You are clearly not educated from the BEST institutions in the west like me.

    1. It’s not a theory. They actually told you right after August 5 that annexing the Disputed Territory would be very bad for you. Too bad you didn’t listen.

      You people are total idiots and you think you are a “superpower”. China is teaching you your auqaat.

      1. Cute, but China has also started shit with Japan, Taiwan, and SEA recently.

        If you’re actually fooled by their excuse-making and grandstanding, that speaks more about you than anything else.

  8. Why u acting so weird? Have u lost it? It’s as if rather than Indian , Pakistani soldiers were killed or something.

    No one in the blog has ever called India superpower and all, as far as I can remember.

    And man , u folks gloat on 27th feb as if u did some reverse 71 or something. Lol. Keep ur sanity and proportions in measure.

  9. not sure how much of this has to do with Modi even. UPA probably would do the same shit. Other than Amit Shah’s big pushes, Modi is behaving a lot like prior UPA governments with these types of situations

    1. Manmohan Singh ji never went around claiming he had a “56 inch chest” or “laal ankh” or anything like that.

      “Hindu hriday samrat” was supposed to inaugurate an era of muscular nationalism. Instead he has ceded “Indian” (really Kashmiri) territory to China. His own words are being used as Chinese propaganda. Great going Indians.

      1. same would have happened under Manmohan. Modi is not the leader he promised in this crisis. That’s the disappointment. He should have declared war. Some independent institutes do give India the advantage in mountain warfare for a crisis like this. A Harvard Kennedy school and another prominent study went into greater depth. This advantage won’t last long at all or even semblance of some symmetry, even if this advantage isn’t real. India needs action. Modi behaved just like Nehru. Worse in some ways because he did not admit that he lost. This is a sad state of affairs.

      2. By what power and when did Kashmir acquire authority over Ladakh? As far as facts go, Gulab Singh was a Hindu Rajput Dogra, not a Kashmiri, and Zorawar Singh was a Hindu Rajput from Bilaspur, HP then called Kahlur. Ladakhis detest Kashmiris even more than they do Dogras.

        1. You’re not refuting anything I said. Ladakh became part of the princely state through conquest by the Dogra.
          It is part of the Disputed Territory and not “India proper”.

          Good enough for you Mr “I have all the facts”?

          1. Not good enough Mr. Narrative. It belonged to the State of Jammu and Kashmir. It did not belong to the valley.

          2. The entire former princely state of Jammu and Kashmir is DISPUTED TERRITORY and therefore not part of “India Proper”.

            You can acknowledge this or not, I really don’t care. The United Nations and the International Community acknowledge that Kashmir is Disputed (which is why they use “Indian-controlled” and “Pakistani-controlled”) and the UN’s opinion is much more consequential than that of Indian nationalists online.

          3. As a “Kashmiri”, kick out Pakistanis and Pakistani army out of PoK, get back Aksai China from China, then India will talk about what’s in store for the State of Jammu and Kashmir.

  10. The standoff just underscores how important it is for India to become rich and more assertive.

    1) Become economically strong so China can’t bully other countries against you.

    2) Focus on HDI. Develop know-how internally so you can match China technologically.

    3) Become at least 5x GDP/capita than Pakistan so those fuckers stop pestering. Drop a few bombs near big cities to shut them up.

    4) 30 years from now, China will be an ageing society in the midst of a demographic collapse. We need to stare them down, bide our time, and strike when the moment is ripe.

    None of this peaceful co-existence shit works in practice.

    1. Please threaten to bomb the Islamic Republic again. You try it and we will nuke you hindutvadis out of existence

      You bastards are no one to ever threaten the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. China is showing you your place. Pathetic delusional fools.

      1. I hope the Chinese destroy all you Hindutvadis. How dare you threaten to bomb Pakistan? You all are truly the scum of the earth.
        Only sympathy for India’s Muslim minority stops me from wishing that your benighted Hindu nation is completely wiped out .
        Never ever threaten the Islamic Republic again. Bloody Hindu fascists.

        1. How about this. Give the Afghan National Security Forces $500 billion over 30 years, sit back and watch.

          Can the Pakistani Army absorb 300 K killed in action over 30 years?

          1. I’m breaking my policy of ignoring you just this once:

            Anyone who threatens the Islamic Republic of Pakistan will be annihilated. We are the world’s only Muslim majority nuclear power. Never forget it. Bloody Hindutvadi!

          2. How about give the Afghan Air force over 100 additional A-29 light attack fighters and enough spare parts, fuel and ammunition to operate them over their life time.

            And give Afghans over 2000 additional D-30s with enough spare parts and ammunition to fire them continually for 30 years.

            And then just watch.

            Go Afghans! Heroes of Khorasan 🙂

          3. Anan,

            Listen you stupid Hindutvadi. The Islamic Republic of Pakistan is a nuclear power. We are the world’s only Muslim-majority nuclear nation.

            If your precious Afghans ever try to threaten the Islamic Republic, we will utterly destroy them. Is that clear enough for you?

      2. “You try it and we will nuke you hindutvadis out of existence”

        Kabir, does that mean you don’t mind bombing the good folks who work at Wire and Scroll?

        That’s really fascist of you.

        1. You’re the asshole who suggested bombing Pakistani cities.

          If you threaten the Islamic Republic, we will destroy all of you. Scum.

          You talk big about Pakistan, but you’ve just had your ass handed to you by China. You are the most delusional and pathetic people on earth.

    2. One silver lining that I hope comes out of this is that Indian media and the populace in general stops being so Pakistan focussed and instead starts comparing themselves to China in terms of development parameters.

      We have a long way to go but we can start by admitting that we are far behind China rather than feeling good by comparing ourselves our shithole neighbours to the west.

      1. “Shithole neighbors to the West”– Listen asshole, you all are a shithole Hindu majoritarian nation.

        Don’t get too big for your boots.

        1. There’s degrees to everything, right?

          Pakistan’s most developed province (Punjab) is at the same level of development as India’s least developed state (Bihar).

          India is a shithole, sure, but significantly less so than Pakistan.

  11. This OIT thing is like a religion to its protagonists. Nothing can change their minds. The Rakhigarhi dna was supposed to settle the debate, yet they spun it into threads of different colour, and wove new fabric out of it. It seems foreigners began invading India only with Alexander, ending with Panipat in 1761. After Alexander invaders proliferated, though no one before him. According to Golwalkar, this was because there were true Hindus then. When they lost it they became prey to foreign invasions,

  12. Kinda laughing at Indian Lefties going from doves to hawks overnight just to hate on Modi.

    They must think browns are utter imbeciles.

    Maybe they’re right, but I don’t think so.

  13. lol Pak Defense is doing its racialist and religiously bigoted propaganda again about cowardly dark hindoos. The 7:1 stuff. They will rue the day when China turns their nation into a concentration camp like it did to Uighurs. All Indians are weak and cowardly to them. Inherently they are the superior race. A nice theme that shows up over and over again. Hindutavis hold less than one one hundredth of the contempt Pakistanis do for Indians. Hindutavis think of Pakistanis as brethren lost to a bad idealogty. Pakistanis view Indians as subhuman.

    Their time will come. China spares no one in its quest. India has lost the battle. It has lost land. The miscalculation has had bad consequences. Moving forward, hopefully they can do better.

    1. All of that racial supremacy stuff is BS, but no denying that Pakistan utterly humiliated India last year. Understandable that they would be confident and proud given how they put India in its place in front of the whole world.

    2. The pak defense forum people are paying a lot of attention to the release of Indian captured soldiers but they don’t seem to be uttering a word about the Chinese soldiers that the Indians released.

    1. It was one of your compatriots who suggested bombing Pakistani cities. Don’t be a hypocrite.

      I don’t advocate bombing anyone. But if you think about bombing any part of the Islamic Republic, we are capable of bombing you right back. Mutually assured destruction.

  14. It’s kind of ironic to see a nationalistic militaristic authoritarian like Modi get utterly humiliated year after year. Pakistan humiliated India last year in front of the whole world, and everyone called out liar Modi on the “surgical strike” on trees. How is it any surprise that China would also humiliate India? It wouldn’t surprise me if China takes all of Ladakh soon.

    India needs dramatic changes to its military and a leader with some courage and tenacity like Indira. Cowards like Modi can’t even brief the public about things; he just sulks in silence.

    That said, China is 10x India in everything, so it is silly to expect India to defeat China. That would be like expecting Andamanese tribals to defeat the US.

  15. Is it Pakistan studies curriculum that completely deteriorates mental ability or is it the islamic practice of marrying one’s cousins.
    How does one become like Kabir?
    I have never seen another like him from any other country. No understanding, no self-awareness and no shame!! Still frequents a forum where he is constantly humiliated by the moderator.
    And oh, Kashmir is India’s ‘atoot ang’. India removed Art 370 and made it a union territory and Pakistanis could not do zilch about it, except crying themselves to bed every night. 🙂

    1. I was educated in the United States. Never had to take “Pakistan Studies”.

      And keep telling yourself the “atoot ang” crap. No amount of repetition will change the fact that Kashmir is a DISPUTED TERRITORY.

      Don’t worry about Pakistanis. Kashmiri Muslims will never accept being part of a Hindutva Regime.

  16. I don’t get the whole Out of India Theory. The theory if correct would mean AASI and Indus DNA would be all over Europe and Central Asia. besides a minute percentage in Southern Central Asia it’s no where to be found. The theory should be put to rest.

    Anyways about the whole China and India scuffle. Amit Shah publicly stated that India should take back Askai Chin back in August 2019. I don’t get why everyone is so surprised by China’s actions. They took the initiative to protect their borders. Last thing they want is for India to start making incursions into Tibet and threaten the belt and road. They didn’t want India to start making roadways along the Ladakh and Askai Chin border. Because if India does so they will be able to transport troops much faster to the border and disrupt Chinese interests.

    I think people need to realize that China does not screw around. They don’t think in years. They think in decades.

    1. This is like reading People’s Daily, just saying.

      It would be more credible if China hadn’t been trying to salami-slice India’s borders for decades, and if it hadn’t made contemporaneous moves against Japan, Taiwan, and SEA.

      China doesn’t care about what Amit Shah says. They saw an opportunity to kick India while it was down, and they took it.

  17. Time to plan my next trip to Kashmir. 🙂
    Lol @ Kabir who can’t visit despite his ‘ancestors’ being from Kashmir.

  18. Never really cared about OIT vs AIT.

    But been looking into OIT stuff recently, and honestly most of the stuff reminds me of ‘intelligent design’ people trying to poke holes in evolution back in the day.

    I see some colonialist type bias (Max Muller) in AIT stuff as well, but more scholarly overall. Are there any good scholarly OIT proponent resources ?

    1. OIT: Read Shrikant Talageri and Koenraad Elst.
      They are not conversant with the genetics, and pay undue attention to the text of the Vedas (in my opinion), so overall I’m not convinced by their position. But they do a very good job of pointing out he holes and inconsistencies in AIT.

      The following 3 options exchaustively cover all possibilities:
      1. The posited Indo-European language family is bogus, and any links between Indian and European langauges are mere coincidence.
      2. The IE language is real, originated in India, and spread from here to other parts of the world.
      3. The IE language is real, originated outside of India, and eventually came here as a splinter branch.

      The largest number of known pieces of the jigsaw puzzle seem to fit #3, though #2 can’t be categorically refuted and may gain in favor if a lot of new and unanticipated evidence is unearthed. Believing #1 is like believing in Intelligent Design or Flat Earth.

  19. But been looking into OIT stuff recently, and honestly most of the stuff reminds me of ‘intelligent design’ people trying to poke holes in evolution back in the day.

    as someone heavily involved in this back in the day i do get the same feel.

    sometimes the arguments are interesting and move me down into interesting sidelights, but on the whole it’s clear lots (though on all) people are highly motivated.

    plenty of fair-minded ppl are convinced tho. it’s just not too important to many people.

    1. @Razib – I couldn’t reply back to you on the previous thread wrt all the IVC/Aryan stuff – the Reply button got left out at your last comment – so I let it slide.

      Some of the closing comments from my side weren’t core but circumstantial. I can see why you got turned off.

      Vasant Shinde vs Reich sparked off several leading Indian archaeologists to come back and state very categorically that there is no field evidence for any intrusive culture in the period 2000-1000 BC. This is BB Lal and RS Bisht. Both of them have been feted with India’s third and fourth highest civilian awards for their archaeological services to ASI – barely the kind of unlettered ideologues. There is no abrupt and distinct intrusion like the bell-beaker or corded ware artifacts in the Indian archaeological record. Its very highly suspicious – this lack of a corresponding field evidence.

      Ignoring this “curious incident of the dog in the night-time” is pure non-empiricism. Reich is being simple minded when he argues about pastoralism. The same people who have left approximately 36k pieces of bronze, pottery and stone artifacts north of the Caspian region surely didn’t turn into minimalists just before entering South Asia.

      1. Ignoring this “curious incident of the dog in the night-time” is pure non-empiricism. Reich is being simple minded when he argues about pastoralism. The same people who have left approximately 36k pieces of bronze, pottery and stone artifacts north of the Caspian region surely didn’t turn into minimalists just before entering South Asia.

        this is a good point.

        thanks for not overwhelming the comment with a dozen irrelevancies. writing 3,000 word comments that some people do littered with “and this is logically true!” pretty much make me think there’s no there there.

        the biggest difference btwn corded-ward and the andronovo-sintashta is the former probably were much more *agro* than *pastoralist*. the ecology of northern europe is very different from central asia.

        the goths were agro-pastoralist. the huns were nomads. the turanian sieve must have done a number of the aryans in various ways.

        p.s. most of the time (there are exceptions) OIT ppl post about the genetics, which i know very well, an have analyzed myself, they seem totally clueless. this makes me less likely to take seriously their other points where i am not familiar with the literature and methods

        1. Hi,
          I have summarized all the points I wish to make. I hope this post is small. I will be grateful if Razib can point out the problems in my thought process (I wish to learn about the lacunas there are in my approach):
          Hypothesis: Central Asians followed and spoke (or were influenced by) Harappan “culture” and “language” respectively.
          Explanation: To answer whether OIT is true or not depends on the following question:
          Did Central Asia follow (or were influenced by) the culture and language of Harappa? There are ample proofs that Harappa maintained trading colonies in Central Asia and there was population mixing between Harappans and Central Asians (of which Yamnaya are a part) [1, 2]. There are examples in Indian history where trade relations have led to dissemination of Hinduism/Buddhism, e.g.: diffusion of Hinduism/Buddhism in South East Asia; and expansion of Buddhism on Silk Road. In conclusion: Yamnayas spread a version of Indian culture all over the world, which they had learnt from Harappans in Central Asia while trading/interacting with them.
          References
          1.https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/vagheesh/files/piis0092867419309675.pdf
          2.https://www.brownpundits.com/2019/10/13/the-clearly-evident-out-of-india-migration-from-ancient-dna/

          1. Did Central Asia follow (or were influenced by) the culture and language of Harappa?

            yes. definite bidirectional interaction of yore.

            Yamnayas spread a version of Indian culture all over the world, which they had learnt from Harappans in Central Asia while trading/interacting with them.

            i do not believe this follows.

        2. “……most of the time (there are exceptions) OIT ppl post about the genetics, which i know very well, an have analyzed myself, they seem totally clueless. this makes me less likely to take seriously their other points where i am not familiar with the literature and methods…..”

          @Razib, I noticed the same cool disdain in Vasant Shinde’s interviews for outsiders who trivialize the accumulated worth of archaeological wisdom.

          Then what shall we, the laypersons, do? Consider this….

          The IVC civilization, spread over an area of 0.8 million sq kms (the size of France), built no less than 8 cities along with dozens of other towns. All of these settlements display the same kind of standardization, a formalism unparalleled, a sophistication unmatched for its consistency across all these sites. The channels in the ruins work exactly the same way when it rains in Harappa today. Yet linguists insist, almost dogmatically, that the language of the people is unknown. How did they communicate across all these distances? (Harappa and Lothal are just 900 kms apart)

          On the other hand, there are Sanskrit speakers – who built up a corpus of works in that language that dwarfs the output of Egyptians or the Sumerians. The language itself is rigidly ordered with hundreds of non-trivial intricate rules. Example – the consonants are ordered in the way they are produced in the mouth – from the back to the front. And historians place them in an era where there is no archaeological record and then also insist that this is quite normal. While this logic is never extended to other IE speakers such as Greek or Hittite.

          Ancient massive cities got built by people with an unknown language.
          An ancient language with an enormous body of output was produced by people who leave no archaeological evidence.

          Shall I bring out Occam’s razor?

          1. Shall I bring out Occam’s razor?

            ancient aliens with telepathic powers?

            i’m pretty sure it’s a cultural difference, but you end up sounding like a smug fuck in every single comment. and you aren’t convincing me with your verbose circumlocutions. you bring up facts i have known since i was 10 as if they are going to be pearls of great price to me.

          2. >Someone built a civilization
            >Someone had a literary tradition

            Forcing these two things as being one in the same period is a huge stretch.

            Razib didn’t even have to go for ancient aliens. Could have gone for Celtic Egyptians.

          3. “Yet linguists insist, almost dogmatically, that the language of the people is unknown. How did they communicate across all these distances?”

            Unknown doesn’t mean non-uniform.

            “The language itself is rigidly ordered with hundreds of non-trivial intricate rules. Example – the consonants are ordered in the way they are produced in the mouth – from the back to the front. And historians place them in an era where there is no archaeological record ”

            the ordering of sanskrit consonants as per the location of articulation in the mouth was first done by panini in his famous ashta-adhyayi, and panini lies firmly within historical period.

          4. @Razib – pretty much sure that its 75% cultural and 25% the topic at hand. It is an uphill struggle. Note that I am disputing the date only!

            The 1500 BC date is quite the most circular piece of referenced and cited dates today. Why not 1400 BC? or 1575 BC? Is there a stratigraphy based or a C14 backed paper? None…..there is no original source body of durable scientific field papers.

            Compare this to European field research where there is a highly networked dense core of archaeological field papers that lay the foundation for the dates for the Bell Beaker culture spread across Europe. The field research and artifacts came first, not the theorizing.

            RS Bisht stated it very succinctly “One measure for European and another for Indian!” The closest archaeological candidate is Cemetery H culture that starts in 2000 BC but still fails as rice cultivation and rice storage has been found at the sites. No dissonant practices that differ from IVC practices bar one – burial mode changed.

            Its an inversion of accepted empiricism. If someone theorizes the existence of an additional planet between Earth and Mars, would this become mainstream consensus until observational astronomy confirms this?

  20. LOL, looks like everyone had a bad week. Seems even worse than the week Indian military had.

    Anyway my view is the glass is half full, India did well to block off the Chinese from its controlled territory. As far as claimed territory is concerned , lets see how things pan out. My money is on it will go back to some form of status quo ante. But the Chinese have at least made sure, that their Indian agents have come out of the woodwork, and for the foreseeable future all the commie Bong/Mallu babus masquerading as modern day Kissinger would get the boot.

    Our desi wokes turning nationalist all of a sudden is a scene to behold. I guess that’s y no one really takes them seriously, and that’s Modi’s saving grace. That even after all this, the public mood hasn’s shifted, since they know they alternate leadership might as well shift the whole of Ladakh to the Chinese.

  21. Dafuq did this thread devolve into! Proper schoolyard taunting!

    Do the good folks here think that there’s any way for Modi to resurrect his nationalistic cred, short of launching an offensive and winning it? (Fat chance of that ever happening)

    Let the Pakistanis have their moment gloating at Indian reverses, god knows they need all the vicarious joy they can get, lol

    1. “there’s any way for Modi to resurrect his nationalistic cred, short of launching an offensive and winning it?”

      I don’t think he needs to since nationalism comprises a cornucopia of things in India, some assigned as good and others as bad by the movers and shakers of elite culture. He already ticked many of the boxes- Ayodhya and 370, the UCC’s left but something might happen by the end of this term.

      His detractors need to analyze his non-sociopolitical decisions to see how he gets so much support. For example, earlier this month landmark agricultural reforms were passed that would see much greater farmer independence in decisionmaking, and would likely account for a good chunk of the rural 2024 vote. Ergo, Modi has enough political capital to occasionally make decisions that upset some people (in this case middlemen traders) but are good for the country and wider public in the long run. A coalition government would try pleasing everyone and end by falling between stools by not doing anything.

      Even in international relations, Modi is seen as a religious, celibate, portly 70-year-old man, and at least from a western perspective doesn’t give off the domineering male vibes that someone like Bolsonaro emanates. He makes the occasional stupid decision like demonetization and has an issue with communication but it isn’t out of control as it was with UPA-2. His bombastic speeches are reserved for state and sometimes national elections along with the occasional mention of Pakistan.

      Aside from this, he doesn’t make mistakes that other strongmen do: he doesn’t say outrageous controversial stuff like Duterte, doesn’t piss off half the world within 2 months like Xi, doesn’t make bizarre lockdown decisions like Bolsonaro, doesn’t tweet like a child as Trump does, doesn’t assassinate journalists in embassies in foreign countries like MbS, keeps his mouth shut on LGBT affairs unlike Orban, and doesn’t have an interest in being a dollar billionaire like Putin. Outside of the immediate neighborhood, he gets on well with everyone and just likes making business deals that are beneficial for India, others see him as non-threatening, and that is good enough for a functional leader.

      1. “His bombastic speeches are reserved for state and sometimes national elections along with the occasional mention of Pakistan.”

        Also lot of his Pakistan moves in a way he has been forced to. Both times he had to react (in his last tenure) were at the back of events out of his hands. As long as he doesn’t have to react militarily, he cares 2 hoots abt Pakistan. The whole last year Imran Khan has been going on and on abt Nazism, and Modi sees that it hardly has any impact domestically, so there is no reaction.

        He is interested in keeping his political power intact rather than have some mega design of “Akhand Bharat” and all. In a way he is deep aware of India’s capability and limitation, since he does come from the lower strata of society rather than India’s bombast Middle or Upper class ( who populate India’s intellectuals, media , bureaucratic, armed forces) who currently are baying for military retaliation against China.

  22. I think Kabir is choking on his frothing mouth. Anyone knows his address!? I’ll give a 911 call. Lol

  23. Some random thoughts, completely unrelated to current events:

    MMA absolutely humiliates traditional martial arts like Aikido, Karate, Wing Chun, Kalariapatu and the myriad variations of Kung Fu. It is my understanding that Thai/Burmese kickboxing, Brazilian jiu jitsu and boxing are the only traditional real deals and have been very thoroughly adopted in MMA.

    I am looking for gyms to join because my university gym is closed. The number of yoga classes/gyms is astounding while there are absolutely no tai-chi or traditional Chinese martial arts places in town.

    My prediction is that in another generation yoga will be become a main organic part of mainstream American (all of Western?) culture on par with football and barbeque. On the other hand the BS (both in utility and efficacy) that are the mysterious ‘oriental martial arts’ will completely die out.

    1. In food East Asians beat us badly. But, the non-punjabi food has still not been exported well enough.

      One obvious idea is that with vegan/vegetarianism type movements coming up more and more Indian food will be popularized.

      I can think of a few reasons why Indian food is not picking up in a big way:

      1) First generation immigrants are F-1/H1B people with no chance of green card and no money to set up a restaurant, while second generation are all doctors.

      2) Indians look down on setting up such businesses, a few ABCD freshmen that I tutored as a TA were under intense pressure to do well in academics (engineering/pre-meds). It is far more common to find young American born Chinese running a restaurant.

      3) Indian food is messy. Not very well suited to small kitchens.

      4) Cooking with sauces is much easier than cooking with whole and ground masalas.

      1. I love East Asian food. I am sick of eating the same Punjabi crap packaged as “Indian Food” all across USA. Being from Hyderabad, I’ve never ever heard about some this Punjabi Crap when I was in India.

      2. Indian food is popular in the UK even when much of it is mediocre fare served by Bangladeshis. Mexican food appears to occupy the same niche in the US. Judging from the one week I spent in DC, it is difficult to find good food unless food trucks are in proximity.

    2. Pakistanis run the MMA gyms in bradford nowadays

      Look at Solid impact and combat challenge its filled with Pakistani guys and UKMMA too

  24. “Do the good folks here think that there’s any way for Modi to resurrect his nationalistic cred,”

    I would say he doens;t even need to resurrect anything . Someone is seriously out of their mind that they can really take back nationalism from Modi. Especially by this Indian opposition which consists of Congress (62 fame) ,Commies ( the less said the better) and the fragile wokes.

    The Indian opposition (contrary to their social media supporters) realizes that its fruitless exercise to out flank Modi on nationalism front. In a way he is like Ramayana figure Bali

    1. Agreed. INC set the bar so low that Modi just has to do *anything* and he becomes India’s vindicator hahahaha.

      Let’s not even get into the Indian Left proper…nobody with half a brain believes they want what’s geopolitically best for India.

  25. A majority of the country is comprised hardcore sycophants who have pledged their lifetime loyalty to Modi. Nothing Modi will do can shake them out of it. I presume India will be militarily humiliated yet again next year; maybe this time Bangladesh will do it? But it won’t affect anything domestically, where many of his hardcore sycophants want him to be a lifelong dictator.

    1. …Or perhaps majority of the those people actually live in that country rather than practice long distance nationalism , and far more pragmatic with the political choices they have

      Just saying.

      1. Anything is possible, and perhaps that’s what they are doing. But it’s hard to miss the hardcore nationalism and associated sycophancy for dear leader.

        And you could say the same for any people, including the people of Kerala and West Bengal who RW Indians despise. Perhaps majority of the those people actually live in those states rather than practice long distance hatred, and far more pragmatic with the political choices they have.

  26. Pakistan is continuing to send and sponsor Islamic terrorists in Bosnia. Recently, in cooperation with islamist leadership in Bosnia, they sent 3000 fighters based on fake travel visas. They also sponsor several thousands Afghan and Iraqi islamists. They are now in Bosnia, waiting for the sign to move on. They did the same in a 90ies civil war. We could see, although it rarely passed Anglo-American censorship, atrocities, raping and cutting the heads of Serbs as they did several years after that in Syria. Bosnian muslim member of Presidency said just before the war – we (muslims) will sacrifice peace for caliphate. And they did. They started a war one Sunday by attacking a Serbian wedding ceremony and killing wedding guests. They have been preparing for new war since 90ies. We will see what will happen. Another attempt to import primitivity from dark ages in Europe. Having pre-modern nations and ‘nations’ in post-modern time simply is not sustainable.

  27. As i was going through the comments, i saw that some comments were “liked” by me which i didn’t like . What’s the reason for this ?

    1. Yes, same here. Some posts I can like, others I can only unlike despite seeing them for the first time.

  28. Indian Americans have the highest average income in America out of all racial groups. I just learned this. Why don’t any politicians talk about this?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income

    Systemic racism is bull shit. I understand it is mainly very skilled, hard working Indians who immigrate to America.

    Which further proofs systemic racism is bull shit. Indian Americans do well because they are skilled, hard working. Brown skin doesn’t hold them back. And Skin color is not what makes money in America. Skill, work, family your born into do.

    Which, makes me extra ticked off at Indian Americans who buy into the people of color are held back by the white man.

  29. My general feeling is that…….

    If, the left ideology wins over America and the whole Western World. Then the future of the world is Asian.

    Asian societies have their priorities in order.

    Western Leftist do not. They take for granted the wealth they have which was created by 100s of years of Western civilization. By, Western societies who knew what really mattered and how to make a society prosper. The left doesn’t know how to create wealth or a powerful society. Nor do they care how to do it.

    China does know. China is very aggressive. If the Left wins in the West, they won’t challenge the rising power of China. Then China will eventually overtake them.

    This is just my general feeling. Reality may be more complicated.

    1. “ Asian societies have their priorities in order.

      Western Leftist do not.”

      I guess U havent met our Indian leftist

    2. “Asian societies have their priorities in order.

      Western Leftist do not.”

      I guess U havent met our Indian RW

      1. Hoju:
        No judgment, just a genuine question.
        Are you a communist, ex communist or ultra leftist? Like you would be associated with Association for India’s Development (AID), heroworship Arundhati Roy etc
        Just for context

        1. Hoju is a million times preferable to Arundhati Roy and company. I deeply enjoy reading Hoju’s comments. Thanks for commenting Hoju.

          Plan to engage with you eventually. You have an interesting mind.

          1. I totally enjoy and appreciate Hoju’s comments even if I disagree with his latest tirades..Keep posting!

  30. How old is mtdna M5 supposed to be? It is found in both modern Indians and a Laos hoabinhan sample as well.

  31. According to this India Today article 16 bodies were handed over to the Chinese:
    https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/3-separate-brawls-outsider-chinese-troops-more-most-detailed-account-of-the-brutal-june-15-galwan-battle-1691185-2020-06-21

    So if the reports are to be believed, the number would be 16 + x, where x is the number of Chinese soldiers who were critically injured and died later, plus all those who died in the fall but whose bodies were already recovered by the Chinese before the Indians found them.

    There’s so much grey area here that it’s better to have a degree of healthy skepticism about any reporting on deaths by ‘unnamed sources’. That being said, India Today is classified as High on factual reporting by the media bias fact check website, so there may be some truth behind these numbers.

    1. “India Today is classified as High on factual reporting”

      India Today is also the same outlet that ran footage of India’s downed Mig as a downed Pakistan F-16. They also reported 200 Pakistani casualties in Balakot (a strike that perhaps killed one crow).

      China has reported a few casualties, but not fatalities. This is doubtful. The Indian claim of near 50 fatalities is also doubtful. I’d guess anywhere from 5-15 Chinese fatalities based on what we know of the encounter.

  32. Boy it is sad to see that Dr. Hsu resigned his administrative position.

    Despite the pessimism of Razib, I was maintaining some optimism that there could be pockets of good sense.

    No more will the good empirical research be in public domain or with public dollars. This makes all of us dumb, reinvent the wheel all the time and just… ugh. Reminds me how L’Hopital’s rule is named.

    1. Violet,thanks for informing us (me anyway) about Dr. Hsu. Very sad and outrageous. Should Brown Pundits interview him?

      This is the first I have heard about Dr. Hsu. I am not familiar with him.

      1. steve is a friend. please leave him alone right now, believe it or not not everyone is jazzed up to talk about stuff right after a defenestration 😉

  33. On Chinese fatalities , i am deeply skeptical. There could be some , but i would be surprised if its similar or more than Indians. Reason being, from all news reports, it seems like it was an ambush, and the Chinese were well prepared, with their numbers and weapons. The Indian side provided them provocation by burning down their tent.

    If the Chinese lost as many people as Indians even with an ambush, perhaps they are worst ambusher in the history ever.

    1. Like I said it is either overconfidence or self flagellation for the Indians. There were already many bits of evidence pointing to the fact that the Galwan clash was not even close to one-sided. Now we have a detailed account from Shiv Aroor, a known defence hand in India, based on military accounts…The Indians gave it as good as they got to the Chinese, perhaps even more..Also prisoners were taken on both sides.
      Would encourage Saurav and other Indians to not fall for psy ops..The battle is not over yet, and the Chinese are obviously serious about taking over territory, but Modi has not given up nor thrown the towel.

      Read this account:
      https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/3-separate-brawls-outsider-chinese-troops-more-most-detailed-account-of-the-brutal-june-15-galwan-battle-1691185-2020-06-21

      1. No one is falling for psy-ops. Both could be simultaneously true, that Indians gave back to Chinese as good as it gets, while also losing men because of initially being overwhelmed by numbers.

        There is no shame in admitting it, i would say considering that with so many advantages the Chinese had, that they could not alter the status quo on the ground, itself shows that the Indian side gave a good account of themselves.

        1. Yes, I am just countering the propaganda about no Chinese deaths or very disproportionate casualties on the Indian side. You and others on the thread seemed to be going by those theories ( bolstered by the fact the Chinese didn’t release any casualty information and Indian official comms sucked as usual). Didn’t you write above that you don’t believe the Chinese lost many men at all. All the new reports coming in indicate they lost as many if not more.

          1. Its the Indian accounts that make the encounter seem one sided. The article linked above explicitly states that the Chinese surrounded the Indians from high-points, bombarded them with stones, and then assaulted them with spiked rods. It also says that for much of the melee, the Indians were outnumbered.

            The fact that the Indians retreated from the Chinese side of the border after the fight also speaks to the dynamic of the encounter. I don’t think the Chinese had zero fatalities as some secondary Chinese sources have said, but I think its equally implausible they lost as many men as the Indians.

  34. The UK government came up with some data on Covid death risk by religion and ethnicity.

    It seems Indian males in UK have a ~1.5 times higher risk of dying from it than White males even after controlling age, population density, class proxies, household composition, self-reported health, occupational exposure.

    What could be the missing confounding factors? Or do you think its biological? Or is the sample size not large enough to draw any strong conclusions?

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/methodologies/coronaviruscovid19relateddeathsbyethnicgroupreligiousgroupanddisabilityenglandandwalesmethodology

    1. physical fitness and body composition

      and most are more likely underreported or screened diabetic and hypertensive with a good amount of atherosclerosis. Basically they have enough micro and macrovascular damage. Endothelial damage is the first step of hypercoaguability risk. Blood vessels are lined with endothelial cells. Main way COVID kills fast is more blood clots secondary to inflammatory state. These men are more likely to have blood clots from what are thought of as lifestyle diseases but do show genetic predisposition in desis. Basically, modern Western diet is really bad for Indians and even Indian one for their low activity levels.

      They have to do their cardio, lifting, get enough protein, and fewer total calories more avoid smoking and drinking. This will be only way to have long term fix for mortality differential from “lifestyle” diseases

      Btw Type II diabetes per twin twin studies is even more genetic than Type I. But there are epigenetic modifiers that have to do with starvation that influence that. I think indians eating better, exercising more, and getting further away from famine conditions over generations, will ameliorate the situation.

  35. It’s Yoga day today folks!

    Brooding on sense objects causes attachment to them. Attachment breeds craving; craving breeds anger. Anger breeds delusion; delusion breeds loss of memory (of the Self). Loss of right memory causes decay of the discriminating faculty. From decay of discrimination, annihilation (of spiritual life) follows.
    —The Bhagavad Gita II:62-63 — Read more: http://yogananda.com.au/gita/bhagavad_gita_quotes.html

    ight imma head out …do my yoga and shiz…

  36. Someone on gnxp hypothesized that Ydna T came to South India from Egyptian and/or Somalian traders with knowledge of Sahel crops, How likely is that? I’m not well versed in y T subclasses found in South India.

    1. @Jatt_scythian, iirc, there is also a decent frequency of Y-HG T in tribals of eastern india and tribals and jaatis of south-eastern india.

  37. I am not AIT, but my comments are in line with this (main)stream. I am not happy because OIT is getting more and more sidelined. I did offer them, because I think that it is possible, to reconcile both streams. I could propose some exit strategy. However, my offer was rejected so far. I think that OIT is still relaying on segments without much knowledge and they have pretty good financial backing from government agencies under the banner that they protect Indian culture. Malhotra even used his speech in British Parliament to invite them and their government to help OIT fighting ‘unscientific’ AIT. I cannot believe that he did not use this speaking opportunity to say something more important for India. If they keep rejecting dialog they will finish in lunacy. A guy who recently came out as an OIT, did this silently, without much pride. A couple of them, I guess OITs, lost nerves after my comments, tried to shout my mouth and asked for me to be banned. It was a bit strange alliance with crypto jihadists, taqiyyamen, who tried the same thing. There are some tolerant OITs such as MMK, but he also rejects the dialog. Yet, guys who are on AMT positions also show some sort of autism by avoiding thinking or even to hear who Aryans were, in spite of genetics, language, mythology and toponyms evidence. One guy even rejected a potential Nobel for this potential discovery. What is the lowest common denominator for AMT to start progressing from there? For example – Aryans were East Europeans (i.e. so-called Slavics)? Any other suggestion?

  38. @Razib

    You should have just banned or temp suspended Kabir there.

    There is a difference between arguing or voicing ones subjective opinions and making 10-20 or more comments on the same topic, often replying to ones own parent comments. This is blatant spamming of the comments sections.

    Make a point, reply back and forth a reasonable amount and move on. Making so many comments is what derailed things on this post and then he also started abusing & calling for bombings, carnage and what not.

    1. yeah perhaps chill on the threats kabir. those are creepy.

      idk, i find some of the unhinged spamming kind of fun. just don’t take him seriously or literally.

      1. Let’s not re-write History.

        It was Prats who suggested bombing Pakistani cities. That is completely unacceptable.

        I will not accept any threats to the territorial integrity of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

        Why don’t you focus on the bad behavior of your Hindutvadi friends rather than constantly singling me out?

        1. ok, yeah. that’s bad. i didn’t really pay attention.

          please no talk of bombing cities anyone. will have to start deleting.

          also, kabir, you should change your sex and go back to 1870. you’d be a really good priggish victorian matron.

    2. :LOL: Var.

      Haven’t been able to stop laughing the last few days.

      Saturday Night Live ain’t at this level of comedy. Enjoy 🙂

    3. “You should have just banned or temp suspended Kabir there”

      Lol no. Kabir is one of the most entertaining users;may be much more entertaining than Milan and Anan combined.

      Sometimes it appears as if he is an Indian troll making fun of Pakistanis

      Also extreme free speech is important for a better understanding of humanity

      1. Not an Indian troll, I’m very much a Pakistani (I use my real name on here).

        Also, what is “Straight Gay”? You’re either Gay or Straight right? Can’t really be both at the same time.

      2. I am digging the new more honest no-holds-barred proto-Islamist Pak nationalist Kabir. Much more fun than the pretend liberal politically correct Kabir.

        1. You seem to not know what “Islamist” means. I have never advocated for Shariah law.

          If by “Pak Nationalist” you mean that I love my country and will not countenance any threats to its territorial integrity (especially from people like you who suggest bombing civilian targets) then I have no problem with that characterization.

          Almost all the Indians here are Indian nationalists (which is fine). Some of you are also Hindutvadis (an absolutely disgusting fascist ideology).

  39. Has Sant Kabir analyzed his DNA yet? What lineages does he belong to? Same question to Prats as well.

    1. I don’t need to analyze my DNA. Unlike the people on this forum, not everyone cares about that sort of thing.

      I am a Pakistani. My ancestors were Muslims from BRITISH India. As far as ethnicity goes, I am Kashmiri-Punjabi. That’s enough for me.

    2. I haven’t had my DNA analyzed. I am not sure if 23andme even ships to India. In any case, I have some privacy concerns so hesitant to go down that route.

      In case it helps:
      My paternal gradfather’s family is from the Mithila region, paternal grandmother’s from Awadh (Hardoi/Bahraich). Maternal side of the family is from Nalanda.

    3. This makes it hard for me to establish an extended universe to the brownpundits lore that thewarlocke started. But at least you guys gave me your places of origin, we can work with that instead. Eastern Ganga vs Indus.

  40. “I will not accept any threats to the territorial integrity of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.”

    …but, it is ok to send jihadists several thousands km away to attack Christians in their own countries and export there primitivity and sharia wrapped in a taqiyya ethical norm i.e. lies, lies and only lies without sex and videotapes.

    1. Shut up genocide denier.

      Anyone who denies what you Serbians did to Muslims in Serbrenica should die of shame.

      And of course then people like you say that the UN and the entire International Community is making things up.

      Sorry but the UN has much more credibility than random people on the internet.

      1. UN? You are a real moron. India, Russia, China..? You think Anglo-CIA&US deepstate kangaroo court, financed by Saudi Wahhabism? Taqiyya is the most primitive known ethical form in the world. Even, such taqmoron cannot say that previously mentioned is not the truth. Just keep dreaming 77 virgins you ketman half-brainer. Muslim-liberal? Hahaha, what oxymoron and taqmoron is this!

        1. Keep digging, you are making my case for me.

          We all know you are an Islamophobic bigot. But genocide denial is a whole new low. I will go by UN definitions of genocide rather than a random Serbian nationalist asshole on the internet.

          War criminal Slobodan Milosevic is probably your hero too. Scum.

          Razib: Are these genocide deniers the kind of people you want your forum to be associated with?

          1. Milan is an original thinker who contributes valuable insights and perspectives. I learn a lot from Milan.

            Milan happens to be right that the Pakistani Army Inter Services Intelligence Directorate orchestrated a large number of military engagements and terrorist attacks in the former Yugoslavia. These Pakistani Army interventions have been significantly harmful to Eastern Europe, Europe as a whole and the homo sapien sapien species more generally.

            The Pakistani Army has promoted extremist Sunni idealogies in Europe against moderate, liberal, minority and atheist European muslims.

            Brave and magnificanet Serbian people–the world is in your debt for defeating the Nazis. Thank you.

          2. I’m simply noting the double standard. You single me out for criticism while refusing to call out people who actually deny genocide.

          3. Anan,

            Milan blatantly denies the Serbian genocide against Bosnian Muslims in Serbrenica. This has been judged to be a genocide by the UN which called it the worst crime that happened in Europe since the Holocaust.

            I have nothing against the Serbian people as a whole (that would be bigotry). I am however completely against individuals who are Islamophobic and genocide deniers.

  41. @Razib , there is a jaati of non-brahmin priests in north india who are called Gosais/Goswamis/Giri (they are generally shaivite priests and are also categorized as OBCs in most states of india ) . Do you have their samples ? How much Steppe , InPe and AASI do these samples have ?

    The only study featuring goswamis that i came across was a study on uttarakhand jaatis but that study had documented only Y-HGs and mtDNA HGs. Gosais/Goswamis ,in that study , had high frequencies of H1a and J2 and very low frequency of R1a unlike the brahmins and rajputs who had high frequency of R1a and low frequencies of H1a and J2.

  42. It was used above the euphemism “UN and International community”. It is usually used by England, CIA and US deep state (Clinton/Obama administration) for NATO countries, SOME radical islamist countries, few small Pacific Island countries with populations about 5000 and few banana and puppet countries.

    According to the CAT-MAN (taqiyya) logic the following countries ARE NOT parts of International community:

    India, Russia, China, Indonesia, South Arica, Algeria, Angola, Argentina Belorussia Bolivia, Bahama, Bosnia, Botswana, Brazil, Bhutan, Vatican, Venezuela, Vietnam, Guatemala, Guinea Georgia, Russia, Greece, Kongo, Ecuador, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Cabo Verde, Israel, Iraq, Iran Armenia, South Sudan, Jamaica, Kazakhstan, Cambodia, Cameroon, Kenya, North Korea, Cyprus, Kyrgyzstan, Cuba, Laos, Lebanon, Liberia, Mali, Morocco, Mauritius, Mexico, Myanmar, Mozambique, Moldavia, Mongolia, Namibia, Nepal, Nicaragua, Nigeria, Oman, Paraguay, Papa New Guinea, Romania, Ruanda, Sao Tome and Principe, Seychelles , Sent Vincent, Syria, Solomon Island, Slovakia, Sri Lakka, Sudan, Sudan, Tajikistan Trinidad&Tobago, Tunis, Turkmenistan, Ukraine, Uruguay, Philippines, Chile, Spain, Burundi, Uganda, Uzbekistan, Lesotho, Dominica, Grenada, Komori, Madagascar, Palau, Central African Republic, Sierra Leone, Nauru, Togo, Ghana…

    1. Keep digging. You think you are more credible than the UN and the International Court of Justice.

      Delusional.

  43. @Kabir

    Kashmiri people representative aka Sheikh Abdullah joined India to become PM of Indian Kashmir and in hope Nehru will keep his promise and Kashmiris will get independence. He refused Jinnah offer many times. In any case it was stupid of him to believe India will allow it. No British controlled state was allowed to become independent, they had option of both Pakistan or India. Just like Pakistan isn’t going to allow GB or AJK to ever get away. Remember rebellion in AJK in early 1950’s?

    Stop blaming Indians for what Pakistan will do the same. Only permanent solution is status quo. Kashmiri leadership had a chance in 1940’s and they blew it. Pakistan support for Indian Kashmir struggle is tit for tat for Indian support to Baloch/BLA or Sindhudesh, TTP etc It will be better for both countries to solve Kashmir issue and stop sponsoring terrorists in each other countries.

    India have to worry about Dragon who’s eyes now are set on Ladakh.

    1. “Pakistan’s support for Kashmir is tit for tat for Indian support for Baloch/BLA”– Not true, Pakistan has been supporting the Kashmiri Azaadi movement since 1947 when the Muslims of Jammu province and G-B rebelled against the Hindu Dogra.

      The bottom line is that Kashmir belongs to the Kashmiri people–not to either India or Pakistan. The only sustainable solution is one that is acceptable to all stakeholders.

      1. @Kabir

        Bottom line is that Kashmir belong to either Pakistan or India. British masters didn’t give option of independence to anyone else, Kashmiris are not special. Since both countries cannot have whole of Kashmir, this status quo is only solution.

        Kashmiris/Sheikh Abdullah’s already made up their mind in 1945, now live with that.

        1. The Kashmiri people were promised a plebiscite by India’s founding father–Pandit Nehru. India has betrayed that promise.

          Kashmir belongs to the natives of the land. Are you an ethnic Kashmiri? If not, then your opinion is hardly relevant.

          Not going to argue further with someone who doesn’t know the basic fact that this issue started in 1947 and NOT 1945.

          1. \promised a plebiscite by India’s founding father–Pandit Nehru….\
            Things don’t work by the promises of one man, however distinguished he was. The process was set in motion for the joining of Princely states into India or Pakistan. Kashmir was no different than 526 princely states.
            In any case Nehru made no promises to Pakistan on anything.
            ‘Founding father’s ‘ is a concept uncritically taken from US history to India. Nehru’s position in India was unlike that of Jinnah for Pakistan. Even if someone called Jawaharlal Nehru never existed , India would be a constitutional democratic Republic as there were a whole galaxy of leaders and political parties who opted for the same. Even Hindutva party like Hindu Mahasabha wanted the same thing.
            All Pakistanis have for their claim on J&K is a promise never made by Nehru . The UN Resolutions in 1948 asked for Pakistan to vacate it’s Army personnel and civilians in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir, a demand which Pakistan is yet to fulfil.

          2. Repeating untruths won’t help. Kashmir does not belong to Kashmiris, let alone all of J&K. This was one of the slogans that Mirza Afzal Beg’s workers came up with when they constituted themselves into the Plebiscite Front after Sh. Abdullah’s arrest in 1953. The right to decide the future of Jammu and Kashmir was given to the Maharaja by the British. Both Jinnah and the Muslim League strenuously insisted that only the Maharaja had the right, not the people of J&K. Put that in your narrative and smoke it.
            The second fact to put in your narrative pipe is about Pakistan’s refusal to withdraw its troops so that a plebiscite could be held.
            The Maharaja did not want a plebiscite, nor did the National Conference. Their Plebiscite Front came 6 years later.
            Kabir would be considered as much a Kashmiri in India as Rahul Gandhi, that is to say, hardly at all. RG has at least one grandparent of pure Kashmiri stock. Your self-identification as Kashmiri is aspirational. Actually, you appear to be more Punjabi than Kashmiri.

          3. Not responding to the rest of your Indian nationalist bullshit.

            But this takes the cake: “Actually you appear to be more Punjabi than Kashmiri”– It is extremely OFFENSIVE to tell someone what their ethnic identity is. Both sides of my family are of Kashmiri origin. My great-grandfather is buried in Srinagar. You are no one to tell me that I am not ethnically Kashmiri.

            In any case, whether you like my opinions or not, you will have to deal with the majority of Kashmiri Muslims who will never consent to be part of Hindu India.

  44. Many people know what is taqiyya i.e. ketman. Those who equalize the taqiyya to Islam (i.e taqiyya=islam) is the biggest Islamophobs.

  45. Milan, many conservative Sunnis sometimes dissemble. However the Arabic term for this is not Taqiyya. Taqiyya refers to Shia who poise as conservative Sunnis so that conservative Sunnis do not kill them.

    Islam has many streams. Some divine and sweet. Some atheist. Others the dangerous Islamist militants you refer to.

    It is best to be precise with our language, I think.

    Sadly large factions of the Pakistani Army are Takfiri Islamist extremists and promote extremism all over the world.

    Serbia, Iraq and India should become best friends and close military allies.

    BTW, what are your thoughts on Israel Palestine? What do you think about Israeli Serbian relations? Serbian Afghan relations?

    1. Thanks Anan. I will write about this when I get some free time. I haven’t spoken neither about Islam as a religion nor about their religious scriptures. I wrote only about taqiyya. I know its history and I know that it is more complex. But, I also know what is the application on Balkan. It is assumed and associated with lies and liars. The other word is ketman, I already wrote what Ceslav Milos thinks about this. I may summarise something from the book I mentioned before – Dictionary of the Khazars. This nervous guy, a fake liberal, made a problem by identifying taqiyya with islam. It means, according to his nervous assertion, that Islam is a lie. I haven’t said this nor anything about islam itself. He obviously is not smart. I don’t know if it is related but Bosnian muslims are considered as the dumbest group in the region. Maybe these 3000 Pakistani fighters and thousands of others will increase the average intelligence of the locals. It is interesting, that this nervous guy plays dumb and doesn’t say anything about the fact that Islamic fighters sent by Pakistan are in Bosnia on standby, what is known to the whole world.

    2. When you see a non-Muslim go on about taqqiya being used by Sunni Muslims you know their knowledge of Islamic history is very poor and they can be safely ignored. It’s a helpful signal.

      1. Honestly, I’ve never seen people go on about “taqqiya” as much as they do on BP. I’d never heard the word before. But then I’m not a particularly religious person.

        1. “Honestly, I’ve never seen people go on about “taqqiya” as much as they do on BP. I’d never heard the word before. But then I’m not a particularly religious person.”

          It is because of Islamist Jihadi extremists that the word “taqqiya” exists in the first place. Maybe Islamist Jihadi extremists should stop violently intimidating and attacking Shia and Sufis.

          It would be very, very hepful if all the two star and higher ranked generals in the Pakistani Armed forces regularly issued statements strongly comdemning any and all violence and intimidation against:
          —lesser muslims
          —fake muslims
          —traitorous muslims
          —muslims who like nonmuslims
          —undesirable muslims
          —muslims who choose not to be muslim voices
          —muslims who support white supremacy
          —muslims who support nazism
          —muslims who support systemic racism
          —muslims who are Islamaphobic

          Thank you,

          1. Oh shut up. You clearly know next to nothing about Islam and have an animus against Pakistan.
            Back to completely ignoring stupid Hindutvadis like you.

        1. I do not know why you would want to import ex-Muslims, the ones on Twitter seem pretty dramaybaaz, fragile and a pain in the ass to be around. Not sure why they need to claim ex-Muslimness as an identity when most Muslims who don’t care about religion are simply content to be very lackadaisical about practice. It is probably the desire to achieve some sort of social prominence.

  46. Analysis on the India-China stand-off from Israel.

    jpost(dot)com/international/how-could-the-india-china-standoff-impact-israel-632008

    The Israeli tilt is obvious. India is the defence and strategic partner, China is an econmic investment:

    This is likely part of a future that will see greater Israel, India and US cooperation on defense technology and potentially strategic issues. At the same time, Israel will continue to have relations with China and look keenly on China’s growing economic clout.

    1. I doubt that. The US will be solidifying an anti-China alliance in coming years. Israel will be told to get on board or else. They know who their daddy is.

  47. Yeah, also India is not any defense partner of Israel. It just imports weapons from Israel. Nor will India take a side in a Iran/Arab conflict vs Israel, nor will Israel in any Indo-Pak conflict.

    I am still skeptical on the US being able to solidify a real alliance though. I think China is testing the limits, but might pull back if there is a real threat of an alliance forming. And than subsequently deal in a bilateral manner with respective countries of the alliance by giving in on some demands. Unless each country stands for the other country interests as well, not sure how well the alliance will pan out.

    1. nor will Israel in any Indo-Pak conflict

      Except they already have. Haksar papers on the Bangladesh Liberation War are clear as day on that question 🙂

      hindustantimes(dot)com/india/israel-helped-india-in-1971-war-reveals-book/story-amCGMddJKr7fplQkyPG1UM.html

  48. Help is a loaded term. Don’t ya think?

    I was taking more in terms of India-USSR pact of 71, at bare minimum.

    This degree of help was also provided by Israel during the Kargil war

  49. It depends on what you mean by defence partner. India collaborated with Israel to make the Barak 8 missile, and it is using the Israeli AESA on the Tejas fighter. Modified Israeli avionics were also incorporated into the Sukhoi 30, and the Israelis kindly mounted the AEW system Phalcon on thee Russian Iluyshin aircraft.

  50. @Kabir

    Why were Kashmiris historically against full integration in India? This is even pre Hindu nationalism taking power or INC interfering with elections in 80s. What was their fear? Was it rise of Hindu nationalism? Because then I feel they have their causality mixed up. Hindu Nationalism went from a fringe movement to mainstream precisely because of things like Jihadism and oppression of minorities in the Valley.

    1. Kashmiris have a historical memory of being an independent kingdom prior to being conquered by the Mughals. Since that time, they have been ruled by the Sikhs, the afghans, the dogras and now India. The dogras literally bought Kashmir from the British.
      The Dogra dynasty treated kashmiri Muslims extremely badly favoring their own group and the pandits. Mridu Rai has written a book about this entitled “Hindu Rulers Muslim Subjects”.
      Sheikh Abdullah shared Nehru’s socialism and was therefore inclined towards India rather than Pakistan. He thought he would be the prime minister of an autonomous Kashmir. However he found himself jailed fairly quickly. India has been rigging elections in Kashmir long before the 1980s.
      The Indian state treats Kashmir like a colony and like any colonized people kashmiri Muslims will continue to fight for their national liberation.

      1. “Kashmiris have a historical memory of being an independent kingdom prior to being conquered by the Mughals.”

        Shouldn’t the conquering/occupation start from Rinchan/Shah Mir ‘s era?

        1. It is now the narrative that Kashmir was independent before the Mughals. As usual it is devoid of factual content. Before Akbar took over Kashmir, it was ruled by the Chaks, who were not Kashmiri but of Shina origin, i.e. from Gilgit. Before the Chaks were the Shahmiris, descendants of Shah Mir who was an adventurer from Suwat, or Swat. And briefly, before him was Rinchin Shah a Ladakhi adventurer who grabbed power. The last native Kashmiri sovereign was Kota Rani, a Hindu, and she too was not really Kashmiri being from the ruling family of Loran, which is in Poonch.
          When Kashmiri separatists purvey their narrative they never realize that the Chaks were as foreign to Kashmir as the Dogras. Nor do they seem to be aware that Akbar went into Kashmir at the request of a leading Kashmiri divine. The Chaks were Shia, and the Sunnis felt oppressed. This Sunni saint sent a delegation to Akbar to rescue the faith.

          1. “It is now the narrative that Kashmir was independent before the Mughals.”

            Well on the ground the narrative is more like “independent before Dogras” . Mughals occupation narrative is more for wider western audience to burnish their “secular” cred.

  51. Speaking of maps and borders, I notice a lot of leftist white friends of mine posting a video in which another white American woman tells everyone that Mercator maps are racist.

    When I explain to them that it isn’t racist/colonialist/supremacist etc, that this is a bunch of white people arguing without a single non-white voice, and that the real issue is that most white Americans do not know where most countries are, they try to lecture me on systematic racism and colonialism, despite me being the South Asian one. They are completely blind to the Irony.

      1. It’s going around on Facebook, and comes from a Russian site “Soapbox.”

        Apparently Mercator maps teach racism, because they make Northern countries look big. The issue is that most Americans don’t know what countries are northern or equatorial. It’s a bunch of navel gazing BS.

    1. I had the same argument with someone, saying that a Flemish man in the 1590s was unlikely to have thought making Greenland, Russia and Canada bigger on the world map would be a boost to European psyches. It is depressing how even intelligent people are taken in by nonsense

  52. Deeper integration into the Indian Union by the creation of UTs will help Ladakhi, Dogra, Gujjar and Kashmiri people irrespective of their religion and UT creation was a step welcomed by many locals.

    Israeli investment and technology will benefit the lives of the locals.

    thebetterindia(dot)com/230625/ladakh-coronavirus-covid19-effect-tourism-guest-house-hotels-income-alternatives-business-farming-nor41/

    1. Right, Kashmiri Muslims are delighted to have article 370 taken away and to have the domicile rules changed so that people from India proper can be settled in the disputed territory, eventually leading to a non-Muslim majority.
      Clearly you live in an alternate world.

  53. Ali Choudhury,

    Some agnostic, atheist and atheist muslims in Pakistan might get assasinated. If India does not save them, who will?

    Personally I prefer the phrases “agnostic muslim” or “atheist muslim” to “ex muslim”, but how can India give sanctuary to agnostic or atheist muslims without giving sanctuary to ex muslims?

    I get you mean by melodrama. Here is a question. Is it that Canadian and American ex muslims are melodramatic? Or that Canadians and Americans in general are melodramatic? 🙂 :LOL:

    Another question. If you have a 1 to 10 melodramatic scale, where would you put ex muslims? Where would you put Kabir?

    1. Assassination of atheists is much more common in Bangladesh where people are more confident about speaking out. I can’t recall it happening in PK. No one in Pakistan will self-identify as an atheist and even the atheists will have heavily imbibed highly anti-India attitudes. And few would have confidence in moving to a country where they see the guy in charge presided over the Gujarat riots, the Delhi riots and was fully on board with the Hindutva who destroyed Babri Masjid. It would be regarded as just being another region where religious fundamentalism rules, that fundamentalism being primarily anti-Muslim. When the mob comes for you they won’t care how ex-Muslim you are.
      Excepting this freakout Kabir is a 5 out of 10. The pandemic is driving everyone rather nuts.

      1. Gujarat POGROMS, Delhi POGROMS– Please let’s get this straight. “Riots” implies that they just happened. These events were planned and targeted against Muslims.

        “Anti-India” attitudes have much more to do with nationalism rather than religion.

        Finally, let’s not forget that my “freakout” was due to the dude who suggested bombing Pakistani cities. That remark crosses so many lines and is completely unacceptable.

        1. Well, suggesting that is not surprising given how many terrorist attacks India has suffered by miltants who are sponsored and protected by the Pakistani establishment. Continually maintaining a war footing with India is their key means of staying in charge.

          The nationalistic antaginism is super-charged by the self-image of valiant Muslim ghazis against kaffir Hindu idolators. It is mostly why Ertugul is such a big hit in Pakistan.

          1. If you can’t see why the suggestion of bombing civilian targets is completely out of line, there’s nothing much I can say to you.

            I think that our antagonism towards India is mainly due to their Occupation of Kashmir (which most Pakistanis think is Pakistani territory) as well as their role in the secession of East Pakistan. If we had not fought four wars with India, I believe the level of animosity would be much less. And of course this anti-India feeling is only heightened by the Hindu majoritarian attitude of the Modi Regime.

            The popularity of “Ertrugrul” has to do with the creation of a self-consciously Islamic identity and the need to believe in Islamic heroes. It’s not specifically anti-India.

  54. @DaThang @ Scorpion Eater
    For a civilization to exist, it is essential that there is a mechanism for information storage and retrieval. The mechanism can be literary or oral tradition, i.e., it is humanly impossible for a civilization to have no mechanism for information dissemination, storage, and retrieval [1]. With respect to Harappan civilization, this necessarily implies the existence of a language as well as a body of work (stored in or or written form) that is well suited for their society and explains their position in the world. That is why scholars hold the position that Harappans spoke either Sanskrit or Dravidian (only 2 candidates are available according to Indian historical scenario).
    @Razib @Ugra
    Hi Razib, this post will provide proof that Yamnaya could have spoken no other language but Harappan language. The proof is inspired by the mathematical technique of contradiction (I am a math enthusiast). Please bear the somewhat long post in my attempt to do so.
    Lemma: Ancient World was not a peaceful place; life was brutal and violent. For an ancient civilization like Harappa, securing trade routes was a priority — which inevitably involved military based power projection. This raises a natural question vis-à-vis the relationship between Harappans and Central Asians: Was Central Asia a colony of Harappans? From archaeological findings, we know that Harappa was spread over Afghanistan, Northern India, and parts of Central Asia (the extent of Harappa in Central Asia is not fully determined). For such a large civilization, it is eminently possible to dominate over Central Asia. The Winters paper [2] discusses the colonization of Central Asia by Harappans. It also asserts that Harappan language was lingua franca of Central Asia. As PIE speakers (whose descendants include Yamnaya) were native to Central Asia, they could easily have been in contact with Harappans and spoken their language (I will provide conclusive proof later in the post).
    Assertion: The language spoken by Harappans was Sanskrit
    Proof: The language spoken by Harappans could only be Vedic Sanskrit, Early Dravidian or a third language. Now, I will discuss the language that could have been spoken by Harappans case by case. It is assumed that PIE spoke a language ancestral to Sanskrit (obviously).
    Case 1: Harappans spoke Dravidian
    The following evidences against this case are as follows (all evidences start with the assumption that Harappans spoke Dravidian):
    Evidence 1: According to Talageri [3], “””In short, no Indo-Aryan language has a name for an animal or plant found in the Steppes of South Russia and not found in India. “”” Specifically, PIE language has words for the tiger, lion, leopard, ape and elephant which belong natively. As we have established that Central Asia had trade relations as well as military relations in the Lemma, it follows that PIE speakers could only have taken these words into their language from Harappan Language — they are the only plausible candidate — as these animals don’t exist natively in Steppe or Russia. This, however, leads to a contradiction as Dravidian words appear only in later books of Rig Veda [4].
    Evidence 2:
    Talageri has characterized the development of numeral system into 4 stages [5]. According to him, India is the only place where the proof of all 4 stages is found. Specifically, classical Sanskrit is at 2nd stage, while other Indo-European dialects not found in India are at the 3rd stage. This is not possible according to conventional wisdom as Yamnaya left their homeland later than IE speakers.
    Case II: Harappans spoke an unknown language
    The proof of this case is obvious (for brevity see the beginning of this post, i.e., my reply to @DaThang @ Scorpion Eater).
    Conclusion
    To get an idea about the state of AMT and OIT, the book “The Indo-Aryan Controversy: Evidence and Inference in Indian History” also covers archaeo-genetics and why “DNA” does not encode “language” or “culture” [6]. Archaeological evidence against AMT makes this theory not tenable in the real world: Foreign migrants with a different culture who have subjugated the native culture and civilization have no reason to not leave any archaeological remains behind. This is the biggest reason why AMT is not possible. Linguistics supports OIT, rather than AMT [3-6]. In addition, there are too many logical, internal, and chronological contradictions surrounding AMT (for reference consult [6]). OIT does not disagree that there are could have been no foreign migrants into India (for an informed position read [6]). They only say that PIE speakers left India long back.
    When a better explanation, i.e., OIT is available that solves all the contradictions, then why go for a hypothesis like AMT that is so inconsistent and stretches credulity to such an extent.

    References
    [1] https://www.nypl.org/blog/2012/03/19/literacy-what-it-good-for
    [2] https://www.jstor.org/stable/41927733?seq=1
    [3] https://talageri.blogspot.com/2017/06/the-elephant-and-proto-indo-european.html
    [4] https://talageri.blogspot.com/2019/10/dravidian-connections-with-harappan.html
    [5] https://talageri.blogspot.com/2018/08/indias-unique-place-in-world-of-numbers_38.html
    [6] The Indo-Aryan Controversy: Evidence and Inference in Indian History

    1. Sorry for the rough post. I was typing on mobile. Is it possible to post an edited comment? I don’t want to spam.

    2. @timepass – Using paragraphs will much enhance lucidity of your arguments.

      One additional literary proof that agitates against the bards of Rgveda being pastoralist- there are over 50 words for towns/cities/settlements in it. The suffix “Pura” is the most familiar expression that has spread far from the valleys of the Indus to SE Asia.

      OIT has evolved considerably from the 1990s when it first gained traction in public consciousness. Some of its opponents would rather see it stuck in that proto-state. A more nuanced understanding –

      1. The Mature Harappan Period spoke Sanskrit that is found in the Newer Rgveda (Books 1,5,8,9,10).

      2. The Older Rgveda (Books 2,3,4,6,7) retain a knowledge of a pre-historic Harappan society that was pastoralist.

      3. The Harappan society maintained extensive trade links with the Sumerians, Central Asians and also to the East (Tarim Basin). A very heavy loaning of words and language took place in to these regions. Genetic flow was bi-directional

      4. The Aryas lived on the eastern bank of the Sarasvati (Ghaggar Hakra). They were the Purus – they called themselves Aryas. It was never a racial term but familial, based on kinship probably. Also extended them to others in political expedience.

      5. The onset of the Meghalayan age (last of the Quaternary) 4200 ybp disrupted and uprooted physically the IVC cities. The Mahabharata amply records the breaking up of Saraswati into smaller channels.

      6. Hinduism as we know in the Classical age only formed after this catastrophic event. The IVC was definitely fire worshipping and invested in ritual purity. Vigrahas/Murtis were a contribution of the South.

  55. Paul Shinkman, US News:
    https://www.usnews.com/news/world-report/articles/2020-06-22/us-intel-source-china-ordered-attack-on-indian-troops-in-galwan-river-valley
    “The assessment contradicts China’s subsequent assertions about what happened last week. And it indicates the deadly and contentious incident – in which at least 20 Indian and 35 Chinese troops died, and reportedly a handful on each side were captured and subsequently released – was not the result of a tense circumstance that spiraled out of control, as has happened before, but rather a purposeful decision by Beijing to send a message of strength to India”

    “Analysts say it’s clear the incident did not pan out as China intended, not in the least because its state media outlets have all but erased the incident from their pages in the week since it took place. The U.S. believes Zhao, the Chinese general who commanded the forces involved, held a memorial service for the PLA soldiers who died in the incident – an occasion that would normally attract some form of state-sponsored publicity. Instead, Chinese censors have since cracked down on social media posts about the incident, including ones that mention “defeat” and “humiliation” when describing the dead or injured Chinese troops.”

    A gambit by Beijing that totally failed. Humiliated by Indians, equal or higher casualites than Indians, and negative sentiment the world over. China overplayed its hand

  56. For Indians and Pakis: More evidence of Chinese bravery, this time from Africa …

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20…workers-report
    “Chinese UN peacekeepers in the capital Juba “abandoned their posts entirely” at one civilian protection site where tens of thousands had sought safety from successive bouts of fighting, a report by the US-based Centre for Civilians in Conflict (Civic) said.”
    “During four days of fighting between the rival forces, artillery rounds and gunfire hit two UN bases, killing two Chinese peacekeepers.

    The Chinese troops subsequently abandoned their posts, leaving weapons and ammunition behind, the report said.”

    This army has NO fighting experience..China has not fought a war or even a battle since 1979 in Vietnam (in which they got mauled).

    All the latest info points to 10s of Chinese casualites including at least a couple of commanding officers 🙂

    Never underestimate the enemy but also don’t let them psyops you either

  57. Dr. Mridu Rai (neither a Muslim nor a Pakistani) writes in her book “Hindu Rulers, Muslim Subjects: Islam, Rights and the History of Kashmir”:

    “A question that needs addressing, then, is how the Dogras were able to maintain dominance over a majority of their subjects in conditions that seemed otherwise to spell political suicide. How, in other words, was a project of power without legitimacy sustained relatively undisturbed for the better part of a century? No homogenization of the Kashmiri Muslim community and its experience is implied here. There was indeed a minority of the valley’s Muslim elite that was cultivated by a Dogra-Hindu state otherwise oblivious to culling legitimacy from the Kashmiri society over which it ruled. Another group, even more critically sought after by the Dogras, consisted of the Hindu minority of the Valley known as the Kashmiri Pandits. Forming at best a mere 5 percent of the population of Kashmir, this community exerted influence out of all proportion to its numbers. However, the availability of collaborators only partially answers the question of how Dogra rule was supported, especially since these groups stood significantly discredited in the anti-Dogra movement that erupted in Kashmir in the 1930s” ( Rai 2004: 9-10).

    The Kashmir Dispute doesn’t begin in 1947 but has a whole history of the Hindu Dogras and their collaborator class (the Kashmiri Pandits) oppressing Kashmiri Muslims. In 1947, The Hindu Dogras were simply replaced by the (Hindu) Indian State. No wonder then that the Muslim majority has been consistently fighting for the right to rule themselves.

    It’s easy for you all to dismiss my opinions since I am a Pakistani Muslim. But Dr. Rai is a serious scholar (and an Indian Hindu) so presumably those of you interested in “facts” will have to engage her more seriously.

    1. “A question that needs addressing, then, is how the Dogras were able to maintain dominance over a majority of their subjects in conditions that seemed otherwise to spell political suicide. How, in other words, was a project of power without legitimacy sustained relatively undisturbed for the better part of a century”

      Very similar to most parts of medieval India (Muslim rulers-Hindu subjects) 🙂

    2. \history of the Hindu Dogras and their collaborator class (the Kashmiri Pandits) oppressing Kashmiri Muslims\
      If this applies to a population in a small valley and so worth a nuclear bonb, how much Hindus numbering hundreds of millions feel about Turco-mongol rule for 700 years in India , who systematically razed the subject populations’ religious and cultural monuments, and attempted to make Hindu countries appendage of West Asia and Central Asia.

      1. They were conquered. And appeared to have suffered much more lightly than the inhabitants of India who were displaced by the Aryan invaders judging by the DNA evidence.

        1. Well that;s the thing, as long as the conquerors “finish the job” (Aryan-India, Turko-Mongols into Pakistan,Kashmir) no one really minds, but if they can’t ( Dogra-Kashmir, Turco-Mongols in rest of India) then we see them as conquerors/occupiers.

        2. So, unless a population has 33% each of Steppe , Iranian and AASI, they can be presumed to have a suffered much much more than conquered by Turco-mongols , which is recorded history ?. If it is 50% AASI, that means AASI has committed unparalleled atrocities , if it 40% Iranic, then Iranics are clearly rapacious aggressors . Speculations trump history.

          Power of ersatz alphanumerals!

    3. Mridu Rai was a sometime adjunct professor who failed to get tenure in the US. She is a scholar of course; whether she is an unbiased scholar I have reason to doubt, considering her emotional linkage to Kashmir.
      I do not know which fact quoted Kabir wants refuted. Kashmiri Muslims were underdogs under Dogra rule. Whoever denied that?

      What does surprise me is that Rai should have chosen such an ordinary existential fact as a basis for study, or a book. Why could not a Hindu ruler have had Muslim subjects. All the Hindu rulers did. And Muslim rulers had Hindu subjects. Hyderabad and Bhopal, to name only two ruled over Hindu majorities.
      If Kabir’s point is that the Dogra Hindu rulers mistreated their Kashmiri Muslim subjects, I would ask, when was it ever denied. No one makes a fuss today about the mistreatment of Hindu peasants by the Nizam of Hyderabad. The whole Telengana peasant revolt was a direct result of down trodden Hindu peasants under Muslim overlordship.

      I asked earlier, as I do again; what is special about Kashmir that the discrimination against a majority by minority rulers of a century ago (almost) should be worth raking up today. Because, if Kabir wants to rake up the iniquities of Hindu rule there would be a sufficient number of the reverse, particularly in Kashmir, where the Pandits have long memories of oppression under Muslims.

      Kabir says that the Indian rule is just a succession to Dogra rule. It shows his ignorance of Kashmir and of J&K. Till 1947, the Dogras ruled with the help of the Pandits. The Kashmiri Muslim was the underdog. After Sheikh Abdullah and Nehru happened the Dogra became the underdog and the Pandit was gradually replaced everywhere, eventually being ousted from Kashmir. Till today, Kashmiri Muslims dominate the bureaucracy, the police and the political system. It was only the introduction of the IAS and the IPS that somewhat dented their vice-like grip on J&K. The Dogras have been complaining of Kashmiri domination since the early fifties.

      1. And now you think you’re smarter than Dr. Mridu Rai! Are you a PhD Historian? When can we expect your magnum opus?

        Delusional. You claim you want “facts”. And when you get facts, you think you are somehow better than the scholar.

        You Indian nationalists are truly something else in your attempt to defend the Colonial OCCUPATION of Muslim-majority land.

        I love your persistant argument that the Hindu Dogra had the moral right to decide anything for Kashmiri Muslims. If the sovereign gets to decide, then please let me know when you all plan to hand Junagadh to Pakistan. After all, the Nawab acceded. The truth is that Hindu India uses whatever principle is convenient to justify grabbing territory. You all are complete and utter hypocrites.

        1. In fact, I have written a book on Kashmir, which is being revised in light of current circumstances. I daresay I do know more about Kashmir than that Kashmiri manque Mridu Rai.

          I have answered all of your repetitive questions during our earlier encounters. They seem not to penetrate the calcified carapace enclosing whatever substitutes for a properly developed brain. How old are you? Eighteen?

          1. When can Pakistan expect Junagadh back? Because you keep insisting that what the sovereign wants goes and the Nawab of Junagadh acceded to Pakistan and Qauid-e-Azam accepted his accession.

            The truth is that you Hindu Indians are total hypocrites and you don’t follow any principles–just whatever will allow Hindu India to grab more territory. It’s the wishes of the Dogra in the case of Kashmir and a plebiscite in the case of Junagadh.

            I’m completely consistent. It is the wishes of the people of the land that should matter.

            As for your being more knowledgable than Dr. Mridu Rai, that’s highly doubtful. Your dissertation was not supervised by Dr. Ayesha Jalal–royalty among historians of South Asia. Loser.

        2. “Only 15 percent (21,606) of Junagarh’s Muslim population voted while 30 percent (179,851) of the non-Muslim population voted. The total number of voters on electoral rolls was 200, 569 and less than 10,000 Muslims voted for India.[42] In Manvadar, 276 out of 520 Muslims voted for India, in Bantwa 19 out of 39 and 79 out of 231 in Sardargarh. In Bantwa and Babariawad the number of voters who cast their votes in India’s favour was less than the number of non-Muslim voters there, which meant that even some non-Muslims did not vote for India.[42] According to scholar Rakesh Ankit India took liberties with facts and laws as it acted as the “judge, jury and executioner” of the entire situation.[43]”

          And:

          Reports arrived of widespread murder, rape and looting of Muslims in Junagarh following the arrival of Indian troops.[36] Many Muslims from Junagarh began migrating to Pakistan.[37]

          “After India assumed administration in Junagarh, India’s Ministry of Law stated that the accession of Junagarh to Pakistan had not been invalidated by plebiscite and that Junagarh had not yet acceded to India. But India went ahead with the referendum because it believed the result would be in its favour.[38]”
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Junagadh

          India is a completely hypocritical country. If the Dogra’s “accession” to India against the will of Kashmiri Muslims makes Kashmir legally Indian territory then the Nawab of Junagadh’s accession to Pakistan makes Junagadh legally Pakistani and the fact that 99% of people in India’s sham plebsicite voted for India is irrelevant. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

          So Indians when can I expect to get Junagadh back?

          1. I am not a Hindu Indian, I am an atheist Indian. You cannot judge whether my knowledge of Kashmir exceeds that of your beloved Mridu Rai because you do not know how much I know, even if you know how much Mridu Rai knows.
            I respect Ayesha Jalal. Mridu Rai? NO.

          2. You’re delusional. Have you taught at Yale or been a research fellow at Princeton? I thought not. Rather you use a pseudonym to argue with “Pak nationalists” on obscure internet forums. You’re a real winner.

            I don’t care if you identify as Hindu or are an atheist of Hindu origin. Whatever you are, you are certainly a hypocrite (as are most Indian nationalists). You insist that the Dogra had the right to accede to India but you ignore the Nawab of Junagadh’s legal accession to Pakistan. Stick to a principle for God’s sake.

            And I don’t think Pakistan actually even wants a Hindu majority land like Junagadh. But Indian hypocrisy must be called out.

            I’m done with hypocrites like you. I have no interest in engaging with you. However, if you respond to this post or even mention my name, you better believe I’m going to let you have it.

          3. “You’re delusional. Have you taught at Yale or been a research fellow at Princeton? I thought not. Rather you use a pseudonym to argue with “Pak nationalists” on obscure internet forums. You’re a real winner.

            I don’t care if you identify as Hindu or are an atheist of Hindu origin. Whatever you are, you are certainly a hypocrite (as are most Indian nationalists). You insist that the Dogra had the right to accede to India but you ignore the Nawab of Junagadh’s legal accession to Pakistan. Stick to a principle for God’s sake.

            And I don’t think Pakistan actually even wants a Hindu majority land like Junagadh. But Indian hypocrisy must be called out.

            I’m done with hypocrites like you. I have no interest in engaging with you. However, if you respond to this post or even mention my name, you better believe I’m going to let you have it.”

            Funniest comment of day: :LOL:

            Onlooker you are very intelligent. I learn a lot from you. Please keep sharing. Thanks. 🙂

    1. How about no? African Ocean? SE Asians settled Madagascar before Africans could. You don’t get an ocean named after you when you can’t settle something so close to you.

  58. @timepaas

    >For a civilization to exist, it is essential that there is a mechanism for information storage and retrieval ….That is why scholars hold the position that Harappans spoke either Sanskrit or Dravidian (only 2 candidates are available according to Indian historical scenario).

    Yes and Dravidian is the more likely one not only because IE clusters with languages from a different land, but more importantly because the expansion of Dravidian languages into south India corresponds to the expansion of the neolithic in south India which started from north of south India.

    >From archaeological findings, we know that Harappa was spread over Afghanistan, Northern India, and parts of Central Asia (the extent of Harappa in Central Asia is not fully determined). For such a large civilization, it is eminently possible to dominate over Central Asia.

    Makes very little sense since BMAC and IVC are culturally different zones which have also been shown to be genetically different as of recent. There were points of contact just as some Indus Periphery people in central Asia and a rather AASI poor population near the Periphery of the IVC but that is about it.

    Ultimately your argument is based on a lot of tangents and assumptions as opposed to concrete proofs. ‘Maybe if this happened then I can use this weak conjecture to further that idea’. Not only that but it postulates a scenario where there was cultural transmission from IVC to central Asia (beyond basic trade connections) but a later genetic transmission from one of the subsidiaries of this cultural network into a more western zone. Why such an unevenness? The AMT theory is based on an even and parsimonious scenario of genetic transmission happening everywhere, first from southern Russia to Europe west of it and then a shift in the reverse direction.

    And I notice that among your citations there is Clyde Winters who is well known to be an Africentrist loon. Might as well cite realhistoryww or Varg Vikernes next.

    1. @DaThang

      The oldest literature in Tamil, Sangam epics (Purananuru specifically), references the Mahabharatha and Ramayana clearly and succinctly. If you state that Sanskrit speakers had nothing to do with the IVC but it is the Dravidian speaking people, then you risk grandfather paradoxes running around.

      Another fun fact for you to chew on – The word Dravida never appears in Sangam literature just like the word Hindu does not in Rgveda. In fact, the word Dravida is, for the first time, attested in Adiparva of the Mahabharata.

      Let’s not insist on the implausible by ignoring the attested facts.

      1. >The oldest literature in Tamil, Sangam epics (Purananuru specifically), references the Mahabharatha and Ramayana clearly and succinctly. If you state that Sanskrit speakers had nothing to do with the IVC but it is the Dravidian speaking people, then you risk grandfather paradoxes running around.

        Not really, the oldest Tamil literature is not nearly as old as the Dravidian movement southward. If anything the oldest date of Sangam is 1000 years after the Aryan migration. It’s like saying if this thing was made after the migration and if it was influenced by the post migration culture for centuries, then it means that there was no migration.

        >Another fun fact for you to chew on – The word Dravida never appears in Sangam literature just like the word Hindu does not in Rgveda. In fact, the word Dravida is, for the first time, attested in Adiparva of the Mahabharata.

        Alright, then call it something that you are comfortable with, but regardless of what you call it, it is a thing. There languages (Dravidian for the lack of a better word) all cluster and emerge from a source some 4500 years ago.

        1. The “something” you are referring to started life in the early 20th century as a form of sub-Tamil nationalism seeking to drive out Telugu and Kannada speakers from the Madras Presidency. This ugly spectacle continues today in Tamilnadu politics in the form of two political parties. No self-respecting Kannadiga or Andhra-ite will call themselves as Dravidian.

          There is no such thing as a Dravidian civilisation or Dravidian literature or a Dravidian phenotype. They only survive as useful devices for the AIT camp.

          The earliest writers of Tamil literature called themselves as belonging to the “Sangam Age” and the “Sangam Civilization”. Sangam itself is Sanskritic in origin, perhaps due to the influence of Jaina monks. They also refer to themselves as Thamizhagam/Chera/Pandya sometimes.

          There is absolutely no memory of a migration or a upheaval or a denoument. The word Arya is used several times in Sangam literature – there are battles with Arya kings, descriptions of Aryas taming elephants and their living practices. There is absolutely no memory of an animus.

          The most celebrated kings of South India routinely called themselves Aryaputra (Rajaraja Chola I), Arya Shiromani (Krishna Raya). Mahabharatha has a very important reference in Sangam literature – Pandya kings fought on both sides of the battle. The victors are celebrated.

          1. >The “something” you are referring to started life in the early 20th century as a form of sub-Tamil nationalism seeking to drive out Telugu and Kannada speakers from the Madras Presidency. This ugly spectacle continues today in Tamilnadu politics in the form of two political parties. No self-respecting Kannadiga or Andhra-ite will call themselves as Dravidian.

            Oh so they retroactively changed the entire linguistic structure to fool statistical approaches?

            https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rsos.171504

            >The earliest writers of Tamil literature called themselves as belonging to the “Sangam Age” and the “Sangam Civilization”. Sangam itself is Sanskritic in origin, perhaps due to the influence of Jaina monks. They also refer to themselves as Thamizhagam/Chera/Pandya sometimes.

            Well of course it is going to be heavily Sanskrit influenced, they could have been in contact for nearly a thousand years prior to the Sangam era. That however doesn’t challenge the recent results. It just means that there were recent, post invasion interactions going on.

            >There is absolutely no memory of a migration or a upheaval or a denoument. The word Arya is used several times in Sangam literature – there are battles with Arya kings, descriptions of Aryas taming elephants and their living practices. There is absolutely no memory of an animus.

            Most Indo-Europeans don’t have a memory of it either, but recent genetic studies show undeniable proof of migration. Migrations which were not remembered as you claim.

            >The most celebrated kings of South India routinely called themselves Aryaputra (Rajaraja Chola I), Arya Shiromani (Krishna Raya). Mahabharatha has a very important reference in Sangam literature – Pandya kings fought on both sides of the battle. The victors are celebrated.

            Yes, as stated before, there was plenty of time for the influence to go down south from the Aryan migrants, the pulse of the steppe ancestry in south Indians is very old as well, and none of this somehow disproves the southward moving origin of the majority of the existing Dravidian languages starting 4500 years ago.

          2. Plz to desist from making half assed assumption about our super duper glorious Dravida and Tamizh cultaar !

          3. For what it’s worth, to be accurate, when dravida politics was in vogue, it was not just Tamil alone. The founders of justice party had a good number of Telugus, Kannadigas and Mallus.

          4. \ justice party had a good number of Telugus, Kannadigas and Mallus\
            The incipient Tamil nationalist speakers and chatterboxes have latched upon that to ‘prove’ that Dravidian movement was against Tamils. There is a large chatter against Dravidian movement in Tamilnadu as it is accused of selling of Tamils to a an imaginary Dravidian race.

          5. \ sub plot to the story\
            Politics is never stationary. Yesterdays heroes todays villains.
            Due to the tremendous money power of Dravidian parties , who have managed to buy most of the media – including The Hindu- and buying voters, and co-opting Communists by paying off, all that Tamil nationalist talk is just at the fringe. Different crisis and situations can make the apple cart spill

    2. Lol Clyde Winters
      speaking of him, the paper on ancient Egypt about to come out will supposedly crush Afrocentrist dreams.

      On a related note

      1-How did African agricultural goods get to South India? Someone suggested YDNA T came from Egypt/Somalian traders. Its too widespread and what happened to the y E guys? All sat home to confuse people on anthropology blogs in 2020?

      2-Mughalai cuisine is supposedly a Persian one but it seems Afghan cuisine is the closest to Mughalai cuisine. DO we know if Pashtuns played prominent roles in Mughal kitchens and administrations?

      1. I don’t know anything beyond the very basic stuff about yDNA T. I don’t know about the role of Pashtuns in the Mughal period either.

        1. Thanks.

          I had other questions regarding genetics. Shoot me an email if you can. I’ve had enough posts about Kashmir for a lifetime.

      2. It is a myth that Mughlai cuisine resembles Persian or Central Cuisine. Some elements of the cooking of these places has entered North Indian cooking, but there is little resemblance between the cuisines.

    3. @DaThang
      I see a contradiction in your thoughts. To demonstrate it, let me make the following 2 assumptions: that you support AMT (if not, welcome to OIT camp), and BMAC had a different culture than Harappans.

      According to well-attested archaeological and genetic studies, Harappans arrived from India to BMAC. But according to our second assumption, even though Harappans belonged to an advanced civilization that was militarily powerful, they never tried to propagate their “culture” or their “language”; BMAC maintained its own distinct “culture” and “language”.

      However, this leads to a contradiction: In a similar time period and region, AMT proposes the scenario that Yamnayas changed the culture of India by migration is accepted by DaThang while the same thing happening to BMAC is unacceptable.

      In other words: I am proposing a theory to Central Asia that is similar to AMT in essence. A population from a dominant culture migrated to a region (Central Asia) and created a culture similar to itself just like what AMT proposes for India — but this time with archaeological, literary, and genetic proof [1].

      From the same article:
      “””
      It is a matter of archaeological record that the greatest influence on BMAC was from IVC and the Eastern Iranian civilizations of Halil Rud (Jiroft) and Helmand which were themselves heavily influenced by IVC. Infact, when there is evidence of such overwhelming cultural and genetic links between these regions, political links between these regions would have been a definite reality. Infact, as Mesopotamian records of the 2nd quarter of the 3rd millenium BC, the Eastern Iranian state of Marhasi (perhaps Halil Rud) was closely in political alliance with Meluhha (the IVC).
      “””

      Regarding my arguments for OIT: They are based on archaeological (known Achilles heel of AMT) and linguistics evidences. I don’t deny foreign migration and fully agree with it. My query is: What have genes got to do with “culture” or “language”? Can you identify what language a person speaks by “DNA”?

      The thing is: I have identified contradictions in AMT based on archaeological and linguistics evidences. The rules have been set by learned scholars, and I am just applying them. If my arguments are denied (until and unless linguistic and archaeological proofs emerge that contradict OIT), then the existence of a PIE language (of which Yamnayas are a part) is frankly: impossible.

      Interestingly, in Europe, all river names reflect the names given by people belonging to cultures that lived there before the arrival of IE speakers. But in India, there is no Dravidian name for any place or river in Northern India [2]. This implies that ethnic cleansing of Harappans done by IE speakers was so thorough that there was a break in culture. But instead, we find a continuity of culture in India, which disproves this scenario, and hence AMT.

      References
      [1] https://www.brownpundits.com/2019/10/13/the-clearly-evident-out-of-india-migration-from-ancient-dna/
      [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpMvkt6uRKQ

      1. @timepaas

        >According to well-attested archaeological and genetic studies, Harappans arrived from India to BMAC.

        It is more complicated than that statement. Narasimhan’s paper clearly proved that aside from the minor InPe overlap, the Indus type of Shahr ancestry was very different from the ancestry in BMAC. More specifically the Indus periphery type ancestry had plenty of AASI while the BMAC type of people had a lot of Anatolian ancestry. Both characterizing types of ancestry are also found in the opposite groups but in a much smaller amount. This is because the 2 populations are derived from 2 different kinds of ancestors. The Harappans’ ancestors are a mix of very old migrants from Iran + local south Asians while BMAC’s ancestors came from neolithic and even copper age Iran, carrying substantial Anatolian ancestry with them.

        >But according to our second assumption, even though Harappans belonged to an advanced civilization that was militarily powerful, they never tried to propagate their “culture” or their “language”; BMAC maintained its own distinct “culture” and “language”.

        Can you prove the military presence or even development of the IVC people? They seemed to be urban and trade oriented and there were very few weapons excavated from IVC, mostly spears, some arrow tips and some daggers. And I haven’t said that IVC had no links to BMAC, they did but there were just minor trade links.

        >However, this leads to a contradiction: In a similar time period and region, AMT proposes the scenario that Yamnayas changed the culture of India by migration is accepted by DaThang while the same thing happening to BMAC is unacceptable.

        It is unacceptable because it didn’t happen. The IVC, based on the evidence we see, was simply not driven by military conquest, meanwhile there is ample proof of militarism being important among the Indo-European society intruding into central Asia. And for the record, Yamnaya had nothing to do with central Asians, the central Asian interacted with the Sintashta Indo-Europeans, not Yamnaya.

        >It is a matter of archaeological record that the greatest influence on BMAC was from IVC and the Eastern Iranian civilizations of Halil Rud (Jiroft) and Helmand which were themselves heavily influenced by IVC. Infact, when there is evidence of such overwhelming cultural and genetic links between these regions, political links between these regions would have been a definite reality. Infact, as Mesopotamian records of the 2nd quarter of the 3rd millenium BC, the Eastern Iranian state of Marhasi (perhaps Halil Rud) was closely in political alliance with Meluhha (the IVC).

        There is commercial influence, but JR oversteps by saying that there are overwhelming genetic links, those are just minor ones which can be explained by trade alone. JR also says a lot of broad sweeping stuff like:

        >This Harappan admixture was apparently not present in the earlier period in Central Asia before 3000 BC which would mean that the Harappan admixture happened in the transition phase between the Copper Age in Central Asia and the formation of the Bronze Age urban civilization of BMAC when the population of this region increased greatly.

        >Quite clearly, the migration and mixing of Harappans with the Central Asians and Eastern Iranians co-incides or slightly pre-dates the transformation of these socieites into large urban civilizations and likely played a crucial role in the transition of these culture into urban Bronze Age civilizations.

        Very circumstantial. If the bronze age of central Asia is contingent on the bronze age of India, it would imply a very heavy spread of the Indian bronze age, but this is not so since plenty of Harappan era sites from India are copper age and some even neolithic. The spread of technology and the culture associated with the said technology wasn’t parsimonious in south Asia so the idea of projecting it to regions outside of south Asia sounds like a difficult proposition. But let’s forget about that and lets say that IVC people seeking prospects invested in certain far off places than the local ones, but this too can easily be explained by trade and doesn’t need large scale conquest. I would accept that option if we saw a lot of Indian-specific lineages like yDNA H thriving in central Asia in rather large numbers.

        Looking at the past picture, the developments in south Asia and central Asia were largely independent. For one thing, the central Asian neolithic had it’s subsistence foundation in the near east with the near east variety of crops being the most important ones, meanwhile in south Asia, 90% of the early neolithic crops are local wild grain. Next, the copper age of central Asia may have had some discontinuity from it’s neolithic of central Asia, but as stated before, the copper age inhabitants didn’t have the AASI ancestry (pre-3000 BC as noted by JR himself). Eventually, there was a movement of metal working from central Iran as noted by Vadim Mikhaĭlovich Masson but this doesn’t seem to implicate an IVC course, and this would have happened before 3000 BC. There was a movement of farmers from there to Shahr i Sukhteh, and as we now see with DNA, there was also a reciprocal geneflow from south Asia to central Asia, bringing with it the AASI. We find BMAC materials in the IVC region, in Iran and in the Persian gulf region but that isn’t taken to be a sign of military conquest.

        >It may also be noted that the IVC migrants at Shahr-i-Sokhta date from a period between 3300-2000 BC while the other group of 8, labelled the main S_I_S_BA1 group only date between 3300-2600 BC. All in all, this cumulative genetic evidence alone is enough to show that Shahr-i-Sokhta was enormously influenced by the Harappans.

        This was the culmination of one section but this should not come as a surprise since Shahr is on the doorstep of south Asia, not even very far away from Mehrgarh, so it will obviously have that kind of ancestry. And I would expect older pre-bronze age Shahr people to have some of this as well.

        >In the proximal models for the BMAC main cluster (table S28, pg 210), we can observe that the BMAC Bronze Age population can be modelled as deriving between 70-75 % ancestry from Shahr-i-Sokhta_BA1 which itself harbours about 20 % IVC ancestry. Therefore this suggests that the BMAC main cluster, its core population, harbours about 15 % ancestry from IVC.

        That is one model and another one with a lower p-value has a 56% input from Shahr, thus reducing the influence to more like 12%. but is this really all that surprising? It was a cosmopolitan place with people moving in and out, changing the demographics of the place. Doesn’t even need to be because of conquest, look at the demographics of California and Texas. Is there a Latin American military moving in or is it just a lot of migrants?

        >Regarding my arguments for OIT: They are based on archaeological (known Achilles heel of AMT) and linguistics evidences. I don’t deny foreign migration and fully agree with it. My query is: What have genes got to do with “culture” or “language”? Can you identify what language a person speaks by “DNA”?

        If a person moves into a place they tend to bring their culture unless they are coming under certain conditions of the hosts. The alternative to a specific branch of Indo-European migrants moving into south Asia is a convoluted scenario where some transmission was cultural and the rest was genetic all done in a specific way to support the hypothesis and that doesn’t even take into account how in all of this you would have to somehow place the Indo-Aryan language at the core using very tenuous criteria.

        >The thing is: I have identified contradictions in AMT based on archaeological and linguistics evidences. The rules have been set by learned scholars, and I am just applying them. If my arguments are denied (until and unless linguistic and archaeological proofs emerge that contradict OIT), then the existence of a PIE language (of which Yamnayas are a part) is frankly: impossible.

        Neither the EMBA not the MLBA steppe people had a script. So it is impossible to present a written form of PIE. But if the IVC script is indeed a script, then a rosetta stone can be found, and I predict that the IVC side of it would not encode an Indo-European/Indo-Aryan language.

        >Interestingly, in Europe, all river names reflect the names given by people belonging to cultures that lived there before the arrival of IE speakers. But in India, there is no Dravidian name for any place or river in Northern India [2]. This implies that ethnic cleansing of Harappans done by IE speakers was so thorough that there was a break in culture. But instead, we find a continuity of culture in India, which disproves this scenario, and hence AMT.

        Actually there is another criteria for this- the IVC fell long before the arrival of Aryans, so the inhabitants of north India would have been reduced to a bunch of thinly spread rural folk who won’t have the identity of a high culture remaining, thus making the conversion easier. As far as the material culture is concerned, the dates aren’t even solidly one way or the other, the polished grey ware itself looks like a grey zone (ironically enough) with dates going from before 2000 BC to 1300 BC. An easy explanation for the continuity would be the local craftsmen were the ones who made the pottery, which is why they continued with the same style.

        You are so desperate to find contradictions, that you make up your own. And if the direction of the conquest was the other way around, you’d expect to see a lot more of the south Asia yDNA H in central Asia and maybe even further northwest of it and that is why I think that the invasion/movement went one way instead of the other.

        1. @DaThang @Razib @Uger
          I have also posted a shorter version of this comment on Maharashtra genetics link. It was not getting approved. So, posted it here. @Razib, I would like to request you to point out flaws in the evidences that I have presented.

          @DaThang, you are clearly a knowledgeable and enlightened person. Thank you for your comment that suggested hiring of local Harappan craftsmen to explain why there is no change of material culture in India. As we both agree whatever reasoning is applied to AMT applies to OIT — unless proof to the contrary is found — let us proceed ahead on our journey to prove BMAC followed Harappan language and culture. I will now attempt to explore and provide evidences that demonstrate OIT to be much more likely than AMT (which anyways suffers from irredeemable contradictions) in the light of @DaThang’s erudite suggestion of hiring local craftsmen:

          According to the paper “Prehistoric Contacts between Central Asia and India” [1], there is anthropological evidence of population exchange between Central Asia (e.g., Gonur Depe) and IVC.

          First quote
          “””
          Anthropological evidence.
          It is well know that anthropological data allow tracing actual movements of people from/to different regions with different outward appearance of their in-habitants and can differentiate between migra-tions of tribes and adoption of cultural tradi-tions and languages as resultant from cultural contacts or influences. It is for this reason that anthropological studies in such an involved situ-ation as the historical dynamics of the popula-tion of the III–II Mill. BC in Central Asian area have so much importance (Babakov et al., 2001.P. 219). In this sense, the necropolis of Gonur Depeis of a great interest, as, its materials could help in answering several questions concerning the formation of Middle Asian population and de-velopment of the specific characteristics of its outward appearance. Moreover, as a capital city of Margush, Gonur’s anthropological materials could shed light on the emergence of several anthropological variations on the territory of Middle Asia during Bronze Age while earlier characteristic of the entire area had been one and the same more or less homogeneous Medi-terranean anthropological type (Babakov et al.,2001. P. 219). The general cranial parameters of the skulls from the necropolis of Gonur are rather typical of the contemporary (Bronze Age) population of the Middle East from Mesopotamia in the west to North-Western India in the east. It is impor-tant that they show very great proximity to that of Mohenjo-daro, while Harappa series are also typologically most similar to the Gonur group series. In all these groups the basis is composed of the population which had taken shape as a result of a long metisation process between Tro-poids (who were most likely Veddo-Australoids— from the racial point of view) and Holarctoids(ancient Europoids – from the same racial pointof view). All these series are relatively close to each other from the geographical point of view too (Babakov et al., 2001. P. 114, 228, 229, tab.9, pl. 9.). So, having a rather archaic morphology and a number of traits bringing them closer to Ved-doids, in the variations of the basic parameters of their skulls the Gonur people find their near-est parallels with the population of Uzbekistan, Northwest Pakistan (Swat valley) and North India (Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa) (Bernhardt,1967; Babakov et al., 2001. P. 240; Dubova,2006. P. 92, 93). So here, in addition to the archaeological evidence, we have an anthropological fact: mor-phological features of Gonur individuals find certain similarity as with Veddoid people of the Indus valley sites. Can we consider it possible that, in addition to trade and cultural relations between these two regions, there were, appar-ently, some kind of movement of the population (Дубова, 2010. С. 500–501).

          The linguistic-ethnic aspect.

          The discovery of seals of proto-Indian type at central Asian Altyn Depe, including seals with proto-Indian inscriptions, raises the problem of the ethnic af-filiation of the local population during the Chal-colithic and Bronze Age in south Central Asia. It was proposed that Dravidian speakers, founders of Harappan civilization early colonized Central Asia (Winters, 1990. P. 120, 140). Masson sug-gested that the people of Altyn Depe spoke Pro-to-Dravidian (Masson, 1981. P. 119–122). Thus one can see the creators of the Altyn Depe civi-lization, like their contemporaries at Harappa, as tribes of the proto-Dravidian ethnic groups (Masson, 1988. P.159). So, this ethnic aspect to-gether with trade contacts could explain the na-ture of the relations between India and Central Asia in ancient times. Such kind of suggestions can be better proved by the anthropological data from central Asian sites (especially GonurDepe).
          “””

          Second Quote
          “””
          The importance to the Harappans of sourc-es from the north is indicated by the fact that, rather than merely sending traders to the re-gion, they established an Indus trading outpost at Shortugai, at the confluence of the Kocha and Amu Darya Rivers in Afghanistan to facilitate their procurement of local resources. In addi-tion, turquoise and jadeite could be obtained from the neighboring Namazga culture in the Kopet Dagh area of Southern Turkmenistan(McIntosh, 2008. P. 168). Trade with the latter is confirmed by the presence of Harappan ma-terials in Central Asian sites discussed before.
          “””

          Third Quote
          “””
          In addition to trade contacts we could con-clude, depending on the anthropological materi-als and analysis, that some kind of real popula-tion movements took place at this time (III–IIMill. BC) between Central Asian and Indus Civi-lization cities, as morphological features of Gonur Depe individuals find close certain sim-ilarity with Veddoid people of the Indus valley sites. So there have been mutual trade relations between Central Asia and Indian subcontinent, sometimes transforming into tribal migrations. Moreover, the ethnic-linguistic factor had also played an important role in favor of these move-ments of people.
          Due to the big amount of Indian or Indian related objects discovered in Central Asian sites (more than Central Asian in India), one can say that the Indus people were the initiators for these relations at their initial stage, or the direc-tion of relations was more from India to Central Asia. Later on, after the formation of BMAC in Central Asia, such relations took direction more from Central Asia to India. This happened es-pecially when Harappan civilization started to decay in the beginning of the second Mill. BC, as if BMAC peoples sensed a vacuum in the Indus Valley region and moved in to fill it.
          “””

          This is exactly what I propose. Now, more specific evidences [2]:

          First Quote
          “””
          However, the local manufacturing of a kneeling man at Gonur Depe, the evident affinities with the figures embossed on silver vessels from Bactria, with comparable
          pieces found in Sistan, and with the decoration of an alabaster vessel found at Dashly 3, in northern Afghanistan (Ardeleanu-Jansen, 1991: pl. 148; Winkelmann, 1994; Dales, 1988: Possehl, 1996: 178–179; Kaniuth, 2010: fig. 5), suggest the existence – at the end of the third and in the first centuries of the second millennium BC – of an intercultural sphere of shared beliefs that led to the local creation of similar cult objects and ritual paraphernalia, rather than the mere exchange of finished goods between Central Asia, Baluchistan and the Indus Valley.
          “””

          Second Quote
          “””
          The objects of Asian elephant ivory found at Gonur Depe provide evidence for a highly specialized trade that probably relied on the extraordinary economic and social value of both the raw material and the finished objects, which constituted among the most prized productions of the time, as well as on the technical and conceptual significance of the transformation process. According to Helms (1993: 13–15), skilled crafting, distinguished from the everyday domestic or ordinary productions, is “usually reserved for, controlled by, or associated with persons of influence, and required high technical skills, a considerable knowledge of the symbolism expressed by design and style, and differs in several important respects from crafts associated with more mundane spheres of life; skilled crafting is political and ideological rather than economic in nature”
          “””

          Conclusion: These evidences demonstrate that Central Asia and India had shared culture and belief. Elites in Central Asia – who had a similar culture as Harappa – ruled and commissioned local craftsmen that not only produced luxury goods but also daily items similar to that of Harappans (the local population may even be ruled directly by Harappans). Even DNA evidence supports the dominance of BMAC by Harappans [3].

          Now, let us evaluate AMT, with the assumption that Harappans spoke Dravidian, in light of @DaThang’s local craftsmen suggestion:

          @DaThang proposes that Harapan craftsmen worked for IE speakers, which maintained material continuity. But the problem is that local craftsmen spoke Dravidian. However, no Dravidian word is found in Old Rig Veda [4]. But we find the opposite case to be true for Europe when IE speakers displaced the local population [5]. Not only that, there were other distinct cultures in India that were contemporary of Harappans (atleast one of them possessed chariots too [6]), e.g., OCP , Burzahom, Jorwe, etc. [7]. They clearly either spoke Dravidian or a third language; but in the whole Northern India, we find no Dravidian names even though these local cultures maintained trade relations with Harappa, and had cultural continuity.

          For more evidences in support of OIT, see @Ugra and my posts [8-10].

          Therefore, all these factors make OIT to be most probably true (at least more likely than AMT).

          Fun fact: A “Priest-King” at Shahr-i Sokhta? [11]

          References
          1. https://www.academia.edu/33317230/Prehistoric_Contacts_between_Central_Asia_and_India
          2. https://www.academia.edu/34596109/Manufacturing_and_trade_of_Asian_elephant_ivory_in_Bronze_Age_Middle_Asia._Evidence_from_Gonur_Depe_Margiana_Turkmenistan_
          3. https://www.brownpundits.com/2019/10/13/the-clearly-evident-out-of-india-migration-from-ancient-dna/
          4. https://talageri.blogspot.com/2019/10/dravidian-connections-with-harappan.html
          5. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpMvkt6uRKQ
          6. http://www.ijarch.org/Admin/Articles/9-Note on Chariots.pdf
          7. https://www.livehistoryindia.com/history-of-india-2000-years/2020/02/22/beyond-harappa-the-other-cultures-3000-bce-900-bce
          8. https://www.brownpundits.com/2020/06/20/open-thread-brown-pundits-84/#comment-64239
          9. https://www.brownpundits.com/2020/06/20/open-thread-brown-pundits-84/#comment-64260
          10. https://www.brownpundits.com/2020/06/20/open-thread-brown-pundits-84/#comment-64321
          11. https://www.harappa.com/content/priest-king-shahr-i-sokhta

          1. @Razib, I would like to request you to point out flaws in the evidences that I have presented.

            don’t have the time/interest. i have lots of things i have to do, and DaThang is doing a fine job.

            two observations

            1) your comments have lots of truth to them

            2) but i don’t think they hold together coherently

            to respond would take 30-60 minutes which i don’t have time/inclination right now to expend because you don’t know the topic well enough to convince me anyhow. you can believe whatever you want, i don’t care.

            best

      2. Which language(s) was spoken in Europe for 7000 years before Yamnaya (note: the distance between Yamnaya and Covid19 is 4700 years)?

        The Vinča culture was the most technologically advanced prehistoric culture in the world, and the earliest metallurgy in Europe, as well as the oldest alphabet (which is 3000 years older than Yamnaya).

        https://www.google.com/search?q=figurine+vincaa&rlz=1C1GCEA_enAU795AU795&sxsrf=ALeKk00n2uFarUURZkziQArrNotWRXewyA:1592959451232&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=vZXT4U_hVJJ0BM%252CY8rS5WjSehWi6M%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kRGoR2tqbzZttYJ2kfSoriMtKQMsw&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjTy-2xnJnqAhXE4jgGHWr-AUwQ9QEwAHoECAgQBQ&biw=1366&bih=657#imgrc=vZXT4U_hVJJ0BM

        https://www.pinterest.com.au/pin/701998660636990789/

        1. OIT has never been good at answering any question. They prefer monolog instead of dialog.To answer how people from the whole Russia, Europe, both Americas (plus Australia and South Africa) originated in India (and none left there) and spread around the world would be really challenging.

  59. Hey DaThang,

    Can we talk about genetics over e-mail? I’m tired of hearing about fucking kashmir all day.

  60. Kabir nobody in India cares about the Kashmir stuff beyond keeping it and stopping it from becoming a raging dumpster fire.

    1. You have amply demonstrated your colonial attititude towards the Occupied Territory.

      Fascists like you need to cease addressing me.

  61. Some identities 🙂

    Kashmir ⊂ India
    Ladakh ⊂ India
    Kashmir ∩ Ladakh ~ ∅
    ∀ x : x ∈ (Kashmir ∩ Pakistan), x ∈ (R – Q)
    ∀ x : x ∈ (Ladakh ∩ Pakistan), x ∈ (I – R)


    1. Some identities 🙂

      Kashmir ⊂ India
      Ladakh ⊂ India
      Kashmir ∩ Ladakh ~ ∅
      ∀ x : x ∈ (Kashmir ∩ Pakistan), x ∈ (R – Q)
      ∀ x : x ∈ (Ladakh ∩ Pakistan), x ∈ (I – R)

      Best comment of the week at the Brown Pundits!

  62. @Razib,

    We need once a day open thread with the way the world is going!! Now they come after Scott Alexander 😱

    Soon we won’t have any place left that is not 100% being crapped by morals-less morons.
    🙄

  63. “I don’t care if you identify as Hindu or are an atheist of Hindu origin.”

    If you don’t care why did you refer to me as a Hindu nationalist?

    “Whatever you are, you are certainly a hypocrite (as are most Indian nationalists). You insist that the Dogra had the right to accede to India but you ignore the Nawab of Junagadh’s legal accession to Pakistan. Stick to a principle for God’s sake.”

    Either you do not read the answers to your fatuous posts, or you do not understand them. The first Governor General of Pakistan and its first Prime Minister as well as the ruling Muslim League wanted the Maharaja to decide on the accession. The Maharaja was the Sovereign; he could not help being a Dogra, just as you cant help having some Kashmiri genes in you.
    The hypocrisy lay in insisting that the Princely rulers of Junagadh and Hyderabad should have their way but not the Maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir. I gave you the history of Junagadh. I can’t keep repeating myself.

    “I’m done with hypocrites like you. I have no interest in engaging with you. However, if you respond to this post or even mention my name, you better believe I’m going to let you have it.”
    .
    You seem to be done with a lot of people on this site. Why then, do you keep coming back. I come here for the conversations and the knowledge, and occasionally, to set young hot bloods like you straight about the facts. I suggest you take a break and let your temper cool.
    It seems I have transgressed, both by responding to your post and in mentioning your name. I should be prepared for the consequences I suppose

    1. I never called you a Hindu nationalist but an Indian nationalist.

      The hypocrisy was on India’s side in conducting a plebiscite in Junagadh while insisting that the sovereign had the right to decide in Kashmir. If the sovereign’s word is final than Junagadh is today Indian-occupied Pakistani territory. In any case the notion that a monarch gets to decide is not acceptable in the 21st century. It is the wishes of the natives of the land that should matter

      I have been commenting on this forum prior to the Hindutvadi takeover. I continue to comment because someone has to push back against the islamophobia and anti-Pakistan attitudes of people on this site. If people here didn’t insist on constantly bringing up Islam and Pakistan, I would be happy to leave you all to whatever it is you want to discuss
      “I suggest you take a break..”: Don’t condescend to me. You are in absolutely no position to suggest anything to me.

    2. Onlooker,

      You are clearly very, very intelligent and informed. Most of us are learning from you.

      I and many other readers agree with most of what you write.

      Please keep sharing.

      Do you have any friends or family who live in Kashmir? Can you share their perspectives?

      1. Obviously Hindutvadis and Indian nationalists would agree with arguments that justify your own country’s rule over Kashmir. No surprise there.

        Anan, you seem to not be intelligent enough to recognize the hypocrisy in conducting a plebiscite in one area (Junagadh) while refusing to conduct one in Kashmir and insisting that a Hindu Dogra king ( who was hated by the Kashmiri Muslim majority) had the right to decide. It’s either stupidity or hypocrisy on your part.
        Dr. Mridu Rai has described in great detail how the Dogras and the Kashmiri pandits (their collaborator class) oppressed the Muslim majority. During the famine of 1877, the Kashmiri pandit prime minister stated that he hoped all the Muslims would die from Srinagar to Ramban. No wonder the Muslim majority hated the pandits so much. This is not to justify their ethnic cleansing in the 1990s. However, the pattern in any fight for national liberation shows that no one likes the collaborator class. Many kashmiri Muslims would include the muftis and the abdullahs among the collaborator class. It’s ironic the Indian state has now turned against even these collaborators.

        1. “This is not to justify their ethnic cleansing in the 1990s. However, [I will justify it].”

          FTFY

      2. AnAn, I have very many friends in J&K, and in Kashmir as well; more in Kashmir than elsewhere actually – no family living in Kashmir at present.

        @Kabir. “I never called you a Hindu nationalist but an Indian nationalist.”

        No? Then, who was it who wrote under your handle on 24 June at 1:47 am.

        “The truth is that you Hindu Indians are total hypocrites and you don’t follow any principles–just whatever will allow Hindu India to grab more territory.”

        You think and act like your government, which harps on the UN Resolutions, misremembering that they could not be implemented because Pakistan would not agree to the conditions of the plebiscite.

        “When can Pakistan expect Junagadh back? Because you keep insisting that what the sovereign wants goes and the Nawab of Junagadh acceded to Pakistan and Qauid-e-Azam accepted his accession.”

        The truth is that your Qaid was a great one for double standards. He accepted Junagadh’s accession while denying J&K’s to India.
        The answer to your question is, that, speaking for myself, I am all in favour of returning Junagadh to Pakistan, with its population intact, while retaining Babriawad and Mangrol. Pakistan should make a proposal to the Indian government along those lines. The condition should be, of course, that Pakistan should simultaneously return all the territory of J&K that it has illegally occupied since 1948. I am sure the Indian government would not mind receiving those areas back along with the State subjects who live in it; excluding of course the Pakhtun population that Pakistan has illegally settled there.

        “I’m completely consistent. It is the wishes of the people of the land that should matter.”

        Good. Make a demonstration of your good faith by joining the free Baluchistan movement. Once you have achieved your aim there you can promote the idea in India as well.

        1. I said “Hindu Indian”. “Hindu Indian” is different from Hindu Nationalist. If I had wanted to call you a Hindu Nationalist, I would have used the term “Hindutvadi”. Are you going to deny that you are an Indian and a person of Hindu origin? Don’t question my command of English. It happens to be my NATIVE language. I doubt the same can be said of you.

          Pakistan doesn’t really want Junagadh. Why would we want a bunch of extra Hindus? My intention was simply to call out Indian hypocrisy. You will never ever get Azad Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan. The Muslims of those areas have absolutely zero desire to be ruled by Hindus.

          Balochistan is not a DISPUTED TERRITORY but unqivocally a part of Pakistan. You are either stupid or disingenuous to compare it to Occupied Kashmir. Balochistan was never a subject at the UN nor were the Baloch ever promised a plebsicite.

          I can go on shaming you but I have better things to do. Do not engage me again and I will leave you alone.

    1. Attempted to post it as #64405 but that didn’t work either. If the moderator is reading this, don’t approve both of them since they are basically the same, only one at most.

  64. >Anthropological evidence.
    It is well know that anthropological data allow tracing actual movements of people from/to different regions with different outward appearance of their in-habitants and can differentiate between migra-tions of tribes and adoption of cultural tradi-tions and languages as resultant from cultural contacts or influences. ……. Can we consider it possible that, in addition to trade and cultural relations between these two regions, there were, appar-ently, some kind of movement of the population (Дубова, 2010. С. 500–501).

    The old method of trying to match skeletal details gives mixed results. A good example would be the special type of skulls found in Mohenjo-Daro which was at first labelled as proto-Australoid and then as Eurafricanid. At times these types get classified one way or the other seemingly because of the whims of the classifier in question, as such I have started to become cautious of them as of recent. I have in the past seen some connection between one of the 2 main types in the Mesolithic lake culture series and the eastern Iran hunter gatherers as some sort of genetic link, but this similarity could just be coincidental so I have softened down on it. I mean, Natufians too were similar but no one seriously argues about a genetic link between Ganga Mesolithic people and Natufians. I’ve seen another name going around on forums for this type: “Capellid” because an anthropologist remarked a similarity between this type and Combe Cappele, but there is obviously no link between Mesolithic French hunter gatherers and Harappans. So such comparisons are not necessarily a strong argument, it is best to resort to them as minor support to the more important genetically identified links based on DNA. As far as the similarities with the Harappan type is concerned, it is because both populations descend from a similar kind of unreduced Mediterranean pre-farmer ancestral racial type which underwent agricultural related reduction over a period of thousands of years, that too in a comparable climate zone. So they ended up looking similar. Even if there was a 0% IVC genetic transmission into central Asia as opposed to what looks like ~12%, they would still resemble one another, not perfectly mind you, because there was a different kind of Anatolian input into central Asia perhaps during the copper age.

    >The discovery of seals of proto-Indian type at central Asian Altyn Depe, including seals with proto-Indian inscriptions, raises the problem of the ethnic af-filiation of the local population during the Chal-colithic and Bronze Age in south Central Asia. ….. Such kind of suggestions can be better proved by the anthropological data from central Asian sites (especially GonurDepe).

    >The importance to the Harappans of sourc-es from the north is indicated by the fact that, rather than merely sending traders to the re-gion, they established an Indus trading outpost at Shortugai, at the confluence of the Kocha and Amu Darya Rivers in Afghanistan to facilitate their procurement of local resources. In addi-tion, turquoise and jadeite could be obtained from the neighboring Namazga culture in the Kopet Dagh area of Southern Turkmenistan(McIntosh, 2008. P. 168). Trade with the latter is confirmed by the presence of Harappan ma-terials in Central Asian sites discussed before.

    >In addition to trade contacts we could con-clude, depending on the anthropological materi-als and analysis, that some kind of real popula-tion movements took place at this time (III–IIMill. BC) between Central Asian and Indus Civi-lization cities, as morphological features of Gonur Depe individuals find close certain sim-ilarity with Veddoid people of the Indus valley sites…..This happened es-pecially when Harappan civilization started to decay in the beginning of the second Mill. BC, as if BMAC peoples sensed a vacuum in the Indus Valley region and moved in to fill it.

    All of this fits well with the trade approach as opposed to a military conquest. Once your profits become an important source of your income, you would want to secure them somehow and establishing posts is a step in that direction. And as an important note, the so-called Veddoid type of skulls have been variously dubbed by different people, meaning that the Veddoid of central Asia may or may not have a genetic link with actual Veddoids. If they really are of the Veddoid type then they should have similar cranial measurements. This was one of the peculiar things about the Harappan Veddoids- they were all uniformly much larger headed than a confirmed group of Veddoid skulls from southern south Asia. So unless these central Asian skulls are of a similar size to the Veddoids, the naming doesn’t hold much meaning. The last sentence sounds like an old school position where the BMAC people were thought to be Aryans, but now it turns out that they were separate and Aryans really had little to do with BMAC culture side from trade links like sending mined ores down south. The BMAC people themselves didn’t move down south, either Aryans or Aryans with minor BMAC input they picked up themselves were the ones who would have moved southward.

    >However, the local manufacturing of a kneeling man at Gonur Depe, the evident affinities with the figures embossed on silver vessels from Bactria, with comparable pieces found in Sistan, and with the decoration of an alabaster vessel found at Dashly 3, in northern Afghanistan (Ardeleanu-Jansen, 1991: pl. 148; Winkelmann, 1994; Dales, 1988: Possehl, 1996: 178–179; Kaniuth, 2010: fig. 5), suggest the existence – at the end of the third and in the first centuries of the second millennium BC – of an intercultural sphere of shared beliefs that led to the local creation of similar cult objects and ritual paraphernalia, rather than the mere exchange of finished goods between Central Asia, Baluchistan and the Indus Valley.

    Okay, but this doesn’t back up a militaristic expansion. Also note how all of the specific places mentioned are kind of outside of the main Indus zone, like we are really talking about peripheries here. The trade position (a scenario without military conquest) does not preclude a cultural development from mixture of different traditions on a common periphery zone.

    >Conclusion: These evidences demonstrate that Central Asia and India had shared culture and belief. Elites in Central Asia – who had a similar culture as Harappa – ruled and commissioned local craftsmen that not only produced luxury goods but also daily items similar to that of Harappans (the local population may even be ruled directly by Harappans). Even DNA evidence supports the dominance of BMAC by Harappans

    This is one of those big jumps that come out of nowhere. The quotes mention specific places which are outside of the zones of the IVC’s populations. Bactria, Sistan, northern Afghanistan are outside of the Harappa, Mohenjo-Daro, Rakhigarhi and other core IVC zones. The situation of central Asia, more specifically southern central Asia picking up cultural practices from south Asia was not unique to that period, it happened later on as well with the transmission of Buddhism into the region, and that happened without any Indian empire laying claims deep into central Asia or even over the majority of southern central Asia, only on the periphery. If anything, this period saw some central Asian kingdoms coming down south and establishing control over northern south Asia. And no, the DNA doesn’t show BMAC being dominated by Harappans, because that would require a noticeable frequency of yDNA H. Shahr I Sokhta is barely on the periphery of the main IVC zone and you can find one instance of yDNA H over there. But you can’t find that in BMAC, only one case of mtDNA U2b so far. So far BMAC shows very few south Asian specific uniparental along with only a minor autosomal input.

    >@DaThang proposes that Harapan craftsmen worked for IE speakers, which maintained material continuity….They clearly either spoke Dravidian or a third language; but in the whole Northern India, we find no Dravidian names even though these local cultures maintained trade relations with Harappa, and had cultural continuity.
    Even the potters would be speaking the IE language upon being conquered. As far as Dravidian influence here or there is concerned, I don’t know much about the Vedas, however, there is Dravidian influence on Indo-Aryan. JP Mallory 1997 says something like 30 or 40 Dravidian words in the Vedic language going back to the middle of the Rigvedic period. So there is a bidirection influence, but it was likely not symmetric in magnitude which would explain why it didn’t influence the important things like the names of places.

    At some point in the past I saw someone in one of the threads here mentioning strange non-Vedic names popping up among later Vedic period poets but I can’t vouch much for it since I don’t remember the thread in question, just thought I’d bring it up to see if some reader has more info on the topic.

    As Razib noted, you do bring up facts, but the conclusion that you arrive at just seem strange. It is like as if I am arguing against an Indian version of the Anatolian hypothesis. Only in this case, we would need a huge amount of ancient DNA not just from central Asia and the steppe but also from south Asia and that too sequentially from the neolithic to the bronze age along with a Harappan rosetta stone in order to completely make a waterproof argument against it. So far, there is DNA from the steppe and central Asia, not the whole sequence but a decent chunk of it is there. What remains to be seen is neolithic to bronze age DNA from south Asia proper along with a Harappan rosetta stone, so about 1/3rd of the collection is complete. But who knows, maybe even with that some people could take the position of the Dravidian languages somehow being genetically related to Indo-European languages and asserting that since Dravidian is the most divergent of this Dravido-European group and because India has the highest diversity due to the presence of Dravidian + Indo Aryan languages, there was still an OIT of Dravido-Europeans.
    I am not arguing for south Asian cultures having no ability to influence anything beyond their borders, the historic era gives us clear information about the spread of Buddhism outside of India, the Indian influence in south east Asia, and as you have mentioned, prehistoric artifacts in south central and central Asia might show that something similar could have happened with a mixed periphery culture, influenced by IVC spreading its own traditional package of beliefs + material items. But that isn’t the reverse of AMT and it doesn’t preclude AMT. Maybe it can even be used to strengthen the AMT position- Aryans passing through central Asian could have been drawn to India because India was so well renowned in prehistoric central Asian settlements. Razib noted plenty of Indo-Aryan ancestry among north Indians, not just outliers but also in upper castes like Brahmins, that too a little more than what is found in Iranians if I recall correctly. This could be because a disproportionately large number of Aryans migrated to a famed prehistoric India right after the fall of IVC.

    ***There is something else that Razib noted. “you don’t know the topic well enough to convince me anyhow”. That would have been me several years ago, and there have been changes ever since, and if the die had rolled differently, timepaas’ and dathang’s positions could have been reversed here.

  65. @Saurav
    Yes, all activities in life are timepaas. Some are essential, some aren’t. Talking about OIT and AMT is my version of timepaas.

    @DaThang
    It is true that if we have more evidences, there would be more support for either of the theories. Further, we also need genetic evidences from Indian population. I don’t think we will get it due to the nature of climate in India. Anthropological evidence may be best thing we have. Reality is said to be stranger than fiction, so who knows? Thank you for the informed discussion.

    Or
    Something interesting: Physicists Have Reversed Time on The Smallest Scale Using a Quantum Computer (https://www.sciencealert.com/physicists-have-reversed-time-on-the-smallest-scale-with-a-quantum-computer)
    To be pedantic, it is actually matter state reversal. Maybe, one day future generations can just go back and see what happened. If you ask me, that would be one heck of a trip.

    Off topic: Do you or anybody else know what is happening in Seattle? I am going this September (if pandemic allows it) to the University of Washington for MS in Electrical and Computer Engineering (Specialisation: Computer Engineering). I hear that a literal civil war is happening in Seattle. Is it safe to live off-campus? Also, what would be the best thing to do for career in the US? Any tips would be welcome.

    1. . I don’t think we will get it due to the nature of climate in India.

      this is false. there’s plenty of ancient DNA from southeast asia and africa (cameroon, ethiopia, malawi), etc.

      one of the reasons that ancient DNA takes a long time to come out of india seems to be the bureaucratic and slow nature of indian science from what i have heard. though there are some good scientists working in this area, and i know they have samples they’re trying to amplify.

    2. @timepass
      Life in the US is a breeze compared to India. Don’t worry about living off campus, just check crime heat maps while renting. Americans (and their drame-baaz media) make a lot of fuss about what would be minor inconveniences in India. Last year, where I live, some water-logged farmland and a few country roads under water was described as a major flood.

      U Washington is awesome and scenery in Cascades is great. Plus there is Amazon and Microsoft there.
      1) Getting an internship is the most important part of your graduate life so start out very-very early, and don’t appear needy or clueless.
      2) Read a lot beforehand and be prepared for successive failures. Americans have their quirks, it takes time to figure them out.
      3) Slogging for long hours is Indian super power, use it. Career fairs are (mostly) for Americans.

      If there is any flexibility in your plans I strongly advise you to go to Canada/Australia for graduate school, America is just too much headache and relatively offers lesser overall returns. The only claimed American super-power i.e. the possibility of creating a unicorn is over-rated and statistically irrelevant.

      Finally, there are tons of reddit threads about similar questions, dig there.

      1. @Bhimrao
        Yes, life is tough in India. Once upon a time I thought I could make a difference here, but sadly, I overestimated myself. Perhaps, future may hold a different story.

        Regretfully, I cannot change my plans now — too much emotional, career, time, and financial investment, i.e., just another Indian middle class person trying to solve the question called life. As recommended by you, if things go downhill in the US, I will shift to greener pastures. I will look through reddit and quora for more info then.
        Thank you for your advice.

      2. Australia and Canada are both pretty expensive and far away. Australia requires you to do a two year master’s degree I think if you are coming from a non-English speaking country although this may have changed. My brother in law went to Ireland, did a one year computer science masters degree for Eur 12k and will become a citizen after 5 years of working there. Then he will be free to live and work in the UK without restriction as Irish citizens basically have the same rights here.

      1. Yes,
        What you say is true. It is like playing a video backwards, or running backwards rather than forwards. All this is hypothetical and speculative: Time reversal on a grand scale, except on the person who wants to go back, would be like time travel. Anyways, it was just an attempt at humour.

        1. More like resetting everything other than the person, since resetting the person would return their particular matter in an older state, but resetting the Universe is impossible even by scifi standards. Alternatively resetting a certain artifact instead.

          Most time travel involves general relativistic space-time curvature. Something that hasn’t been formulated in QM terms as far as I know.

          1. What you say is true.

            I am getting Frankenstein vibes from this: So, if we restore a Harappan body to its earlier state, we get a live Harappan. We can just record his speech; and, ergo, our problem is solved. Not just this, but millennia long space travel, perpetual youth (reset and relearn), and whatnot may become possible. Just thinking about the implications is mind boggling. Trivia: I heard a company is preserving dead bodies to reverse death one day in Russia (https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-cryonics-dead-people-vats-immortality-medvedev/28314196.html).

          2. True.
            Following on, perhaps millennia long space travel; perpetual youth, i.e, just reset and relearn (Groundhog day with a twist https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107048/); and whatnot may become possible by matter/time reversal. Just thinking about the implications is mind boggling.

            Well, a simpler method of time travel may just be to find a parallel universe where time flows backwards. The following link just for speculation: “””Has NASA Found A Parallel Universe ‘Where Time Flows Backwards?’ The Truth Behind The Headlines””” https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamiecartereurope/2020/05/21/has-nasa-found-a-parallel-universe-where-time-flows-backwards-the-truth-behind-the-headlines/#82b09c3646d4)

            BTW can you suggest a book to learn genetics from scratch.

          3. It would be much easier to just find the artifacts and bones with DNA stored in them. Most of those things are scifi by a margin of tens of thousands of years if not more.

  66. I apologize for asking this question again but i didn’t get a reply so trying once more.

    @Razib, there is a non-brahmin jaati in north india who are called Gosais/Goswamis/Giri and have traditionally been priests in many temples (they are generally shaivite priests and are also categorized as OBCs in most states of india ) .Have you come across their samples ? How much Steppe , InPe and AASI do these samples have ?

    The only study featuring goswamis that i came across was a study on uttarakhand jaatis but that study had documented only Y-HGs and mtDNA HGs. Gosais/Goswamis ,in that study , had high frequencies of H1a and J2 and very low frequency of R1a unlike the brahmins and rajputs who had high frequency of R1a and low frequencies of H1a and J2

  67. This will hurt Kabir’s feelings but it needs to be said, people of the Kashmir valley won’t recognize you as a Kashmiri and would be miffed someone who is so staunchly pro Pakistani is trying to represent them. I’m saying this as a Kashmiri who is actually from the valley. Tohiy chuv Koshur tagan fikri? Or even Hekan Koshursmanz kath kaaran? If not, you’re not considered a Kashmiri by other Kashmiris. You also seem to have an elementary grasp of the situation in Kashmir and one that is clearly formed by Pakistani propaganda. I find it interesting you have not once mentioned that Pakistan has never really understood Kashmiris and this was only exemplified by their sending Pathans to invade Kashmir in 1947. Now if anyone knows anything about Kashmiris deep disgust for Pathans, they would know how disastrous this move was by Pakistan. That was the move that caused the maharaja to accede to India (signing the same instrument of accession as all the other royal kingdoms), after which sheikh Abdullah went to the UN and met with Nehru (by the way, the Indians offered sheikh Abdullah the chance to go to Pakistan, he refused), where he decided to stick with India. Now you will likely call me a hindutvadi or level some claim against me but I’m just letting you know, you don’t know as much about Kashmir as you think and you are clearly unaware about the feelings towards Pakistan in general in the valley.

    1. Kashmiri,

      The only thing I have been consistently advocating for is for the right of the Kashmiri people to decide their future, whether that is India, Pakistan or independence. That right was promised to you by India’s founding father Pandit Nehru in front of the International Community. If I were a ” Pak Nationalist” I would simply have said “Kashmir Banega Pakistan” and left it at that.

      Sheikh Abdullah was close to Pandit Nehru because they shared a belief in socialism. The Sheikh thought that Kashmir’s interests would be better served by autonomy within India (a secular India at that time and not a Hindutvadi India as it is today) than if Kashmir joined Pakistan. However, he was jailed very soon after for calling for the plebiscite. Even now, NC is calling for autonomy and restoration of Article 370.

      However bad Pakistan is, it is the Indian Army that has raped Kashmiri Muslim women and disappeared Kashmiri Muslim men. This doesn’t happen in Azad Kashmir or G-B.

      1. India does not have A founding father, not sure what your obsession is in calling JLN as one.

        Kashmiris have already seen what how bad Pakistanis are- looting and pillaging of Pakistani army and irregulars in 1947. I mean, there is a reason why they signed the accession treaty with India. Moreover, to this day they see how Pakistanis deal with dissent aka Balochistan.

        1. I have told Kabir many times

          India does not have any founding father , not Jawaharlal Nehru.
          Nehru made no promises about Kashmir in UN (“before the whole world”) or to Pakistan or to anybody
          The UN Resolution asked Pakistan to vacate PoK
          Accession of J&K was no different from 500+ others .

          He keeps repeating the same lies over and over . That is how and why Pakistani ideology works . Kabir’s views are interesting as he is a complete and abject dupe of the Pakistani army propaganda.

          1. Right, Pandit Nehru is not on record promising the Kashmiri people a plebsicite. You clearly live in your own delusional world.

            I am not a “dupe of Pakistani propaganda”. I am an American citizen and was educated in the US, not in Pakistan. Christopher Snedden and Victoria Schofield have written well-researched books on Kashmir which I have actually bothered to read.

            You are completely delusional. Never engage me again.

          2. \ I am an American citizen and was educated in the US\
            Nobody will believe that from your reactions.
            Who said “My country calls all of the former princely state under India’s control OCCUPIED Kashmir ” That is NOT US position.
            Who said my enemy’s enemy is my friend . The US not an enemy of India.
            Who said ‘we are indo-mughal’ continuation. Proper Americans like Razib give two hoots to Mughals or for that matter Hindu or Pakistani sensibilities, etc. at a personal level
            Americans don’t give a rats ass whether Pakistan is “Home of Islam” or not. Whereas that is your crying rally
            All your tropes come straight out of Pakistani prop
            For a US citizen you have remarkably no regards for democracy or secularism i.e. separation of state and religion. Oh, you like Secularism in all non Muslim countries esp India , but not Pakistan or any Muslim country
            While you were salivating over imaginary Chinese victories over India , the US position is very different
            https://twitter.com/Geeta_Mohan/status/1274133741745532929
            “The PLA has escalated border tensions – we see it today in India, the world’s most popular – populous democracy…”

            All your emotional dress is made in Pakistan, nothing from the US.

            More like David Headley (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Headley) , who was born in the US

        2. Pandit Nehru was the founding father of the Republic of India. India is a socially constructed nation and did not exist before August 15, 1947. What existed before then was the BRITISH Indian Empire.

          Kashmiri Muslims did not sign the accession treaty. It is the Hindu Dogra Maharaja who did (as Onlooker keeps pointing out). I don’t believe a Hindu Dogra has any moral claim to decide anything for Kashmiri Muslims (most of whom hated his dynasty).

          1. \Kashmiri Muslims did not sign the accession treaty. It is the Hindu Dogra Maharaja who did\
            Sorry mate, that was the rule of the game in those days , applied to 500+ Princely States. If you can’t accept it, you are banging your head against a brick wall of history and cold facts.

            Unlike other Princely states, J&K in those days had a good political voice for the people in the shape of NC, who also accepted it and supported it.

          2. You’re the idiot who denies that Pandit Nehru promised the Kashmiri people a plebiscite. No point discussing this topic with you. You’re the one “banging your head against facts”.

            I told you to stop commenting on my posts. Go to hell Hindutvadi.

          3. \I told you to stop commenting on my posts\

            You are not a net cop to order people . Another delusion

            Pakistanis on the verge of nervous breakdown

          4. Regarding your comment under moderation:

            You apparently have great difficulty understanding the concept of DUAL CITIZENSHIP. I am a Pakistani-American. I was born in Pakistan but moved to the United States with my family at the age of 6.

            As for “true Americans like Razib”– Anyone who is an American Citizen is an American. We don’t have a concept of “true” and “false”.

            Thinking that anyone who disagrees with the Indian Nationalist position is a product of “Pakistani propaganda” is a really stupid position. The entire world speaks of Indian-controlled Kashmir. The International Community recognizes that it is a DISPUTED TERRITORY. Sorry, you can’t deal with reality.

          5. I have asked you to spare me your bullshit rhetoric.

            I’m not having a “nervous breakdown” nor are you a competent psychologist.

            Go study the concept of dual citizenship which you are apparently too slow to understand.

          6. \We don’t have a concept …….. ..\

            Your emotional reactions are made in Pakistan even though you claim to carry US passport.
            The US is not against India “My country calls all of the former princely state under India’s control OCCUPIED Kashmir ” is false and delusional.

            Your liking for US political concepts of Democracy and Secularism (separation of state and religion) is nil; Your concept of secularism applies only to India and not to Pakistan or muslim countries. otherwise you won’t be salivating at imaginary Chinese victories against India this year and claiming my enemy’s enemy is my friend

            US position
            https://twitter.com/Geeta_Mohan/status/1274133741745532929
            “The PLA has escalated border tensions – we see it today in India, the world’s most popular – populous democracy…”

            Still you gloat over imaginary victories of a dictatorship over democracy and claim my enemy’s enemy is my friend. This is supposed to be US citizen !!

            @Razib
            Why is Kabir moderating posts or seem to know what the moderators doing

            .

          7. I don’t “CLAIM” to carry a US passport. I actually DO have one. Razib is as much of an American as I am. He was born in Bangladesh and moved to the US as a child. I was born in Pakistan but was brought up in the US. I’m explaining this to you for the last time because it’s getting extremely boring. Your idea that my US citizenship is somehow false is ridiculous.

            In that remark you keep quoting obviously when I said “My country” I meant Pakistan. DUAL CITIZENSHIP is a thing. Being an American citizen doesn’t mean I’m no longer Pakistani.

            By the way, even Joe Biden has called for the restoration of rights to the Kashmiri people and come out against CAA. Sorry reality bites.

            This is my last comment to you. I want to have nothing to do with you.

          8. \ Your idea that my US citizenship is somehow false \

            I don’t mean to cast aspersions on your US passport , if you have one. I have never said your claims on that score are false I take people at face value. But your political reactions have not gone out of south Asia – Pakistan to be precise, that too of an extreme variety

          9. “Pandit Nehru was the founding father of the Republic of India.”

            Incorrect and baseless. JLN was just the first PM. To be accurate, India was not a republic until 1950, by which time the first war on Kashmir was over. TBH, Vallabhai Patel did the “actual” building of republic, whether the annexation of Goa or Hyderabad, he was the main architect.

            “Kashmiri Muslims did not sign the accession treaty.”
            They did not have any legal powers to do so. It was the head of state that made that decision and the ruler of J&K, chose India.

            “I don’t believe a Hindu Dogra has any moral claim to decide anything for Kashmiri Muslims (most of whom hated his dynasty).”
            They were his subjects, they were free to go out of HIS country. Last checked, Sheikh Abdulla was a Kashmiri who sided with India.

          10. Jay,

            “They were his subjects. They were free to go out of HIS country”– Kashmiri Muslims have been the majority in the Valley since long before the British sold the territory to the Dogras. This is a frankly colonial argument. The land belongs to it’s natives.

            Sheikh Abdullah chose India because of his belief in Nehru’s socialism. Yet within a few years he found himself in jail for calling for the plebiscite. Even today, NC demands a return to the pre-1953 autonomy.

      2. It is true that some Kashmiri men have been taken into custody and not heard of again. It is not a large number but still a matter of shame, as were a few other incidents in which the army shot up and killed innocent people. There were however no more than two cases of rape by the army, and of these, one, the infamous Kunan Poshpora is most likely a manufactured story.
        Pakistan’s army may not have raped women in GB but they did so in Baluchistan, as the case of that lady doctor testified, and there are plenty of disappeared Baloch.

        1. Now you’re denying Kunan Pushpora? You are a sick person.

          I have nothing further to say to anyone who would whitewash the rapes of Kashmiri women.

      3. There can’t be a vote for one big reason–who qualifies as a Kashmiri? People in the valley don’t want Mirpuris voting for them and dont recognize people living on the opposite side of the border as kashmiris. Furthermore, the Kashmiri Pandit genocide has only muddied these waters as who from that group would vote? Would it be those that left or also their descendants who did not have the opportunity to choose whether to live in Kashmir? Voting for self-determination is not viable, regardless of what was promised more than half a century ago. My relative was very close with Sheikh Abdullah and worked with him (he was even imprisoned with him) and so perhaps I have a unique insight on the situation. He was actually pro-independence and led the early movement (interestingly mostly led by Kashmiri Pandit and Muslim intellectuals of that time in various areas including lahore, lucknow, srinagar, etc., now it has been usurped by mostly uneducated jihadis). Before his death, he told us that 1) Sheikh Abdullah did not want a theocratic state and believed that joining Pakistan would lead to that and 2) the bloodshed across the subcontinent showed independence was not viable, though they really did try. I, too, believe independence is not viable. Look at how aggressive China is, I honestly believe if Kashmir became an independent country (very unlikely), China would invade. This is what happened in 1947 with the Pathans and India rescued Kashmir that time. No one would be there to rescue Kashmir if China invaded. Kashmir has little manpower or resources to defend itself. Furthermore, the UN is a relatively useless organization in practical terms and would not be able to do much to stop this. The only resolution for Kashmir is to maintain borders as is.

        1. The plebsicite applies to all the former subjects of the princely state.

          “Genocide” is the wrong term for what happened to the Kashmiri Pandits. In English, genocide implies a state-led campaign of extermination. The correct term for what happened to the Pandits is Ethnic Cleansing.

          Christopher Snedden in his book “Understanding Kashmir and Kashmiris” points out that the tribal invasions happened after the Dogra led Jammu massacres. Also, the formation of AJK was a rebellion against the Maharaja and occurred two days before his “accession”.

          The history is a lot more complicated than the Indian Nationalist version.

          If you advocate leaving the borders where they are, please suggest to your Indian friends that they stopping portraying AJK and G-B as Indian territory.

    2. Kashmiri,

      Would you be willing to join a Brown Pundit podcast on Kashmir?

      We have some Kashmiri poet guests lined up who can speak on Pir Nund Rishi, other Pirs, Kashyapa and ancient Kashmiri history. Perhaps you would be willing to help us interview them? I love listening to their poetry 🙂

      I have been moved by my interactions with Nund Rishi Silsila devotees and feel a lot of deep affection for Nund Rishi, Lal Ded and so many others.

      I would love to touch base with you offline to ask your perspectives and to share things I have been told . . . to get your feedback.

      For example some Pandits still live in the Valley. And many temples in the Valley are protected and looked after by Sufis and Shia. One fear many older Pandits have is that when they pass away their close friendships with the Shia and Sufi might not pass down to future generations. Many Kashmiri muslim people are extraordinarily sweet and kind.

      I know about the conservative Sunnis. The Pandits in the Valley I am told hang out in the Shia and Sufi bubble. And when Pandits from outside Kashmir visit they also stay within this bubble. They worry that the young Kashmiri Pandits who were born outside of Kashmir may not learn how beautiful many Kashmiri muslims are.

      1. I am not as well-versed in the poetry and ancient traditions of Kashmir as I wish to be so I feel I am not the appropriate person for that, though I certainly believe I know others who may be better suited if you would like that! As far as the other things you’ve mentioned, it is tragic for the first time in history there exists a generation of Kashmiri Pandits and Kashmiri Muslims who do not know each other. To many Kashmiri Muslims, Pandits are almost a legend that is slowly fading away from the valley. For Pandits, there is a lot of drive amongst the youth to keep alive the traditions and language (even reviving Sharda script), but unfortunately a great deal of resentment has resulted in many of them aligning with the Hindutva ideology. I can’t say I can blame them though because the pain of losing a homeland and seeing ones culture slowly die is truly hard. Furthermore, I have seen persistent genocide denial amongst the Kashmiri Muslim youth in the valley and this only adds to the resentment. I believe the day the Kashmiri Pandits were driven from the valley was the day Kashmir was destroyed. It is heartbreaking to see the older generation of Pandits, their hopes of spending their last days in the valley dwindling day by day. Many have become pessimistic and believe Kashmir will never be the same and the Kashmiri Pandit community will die. It is a very sad situation. There is also a confusion of what Pandits did to deserve this. Especially the older ones, they don’t understand what they did to deserve this.

  68. if in the event of kashmir becoming pakistan, will they get all parts of ladak which is now in chinese possession?

  69. what might the real effect on india of a war with china. even in the event of china getting an upper hand, can china impose its conditions on india? can they occupy any population settled area?

    1. Depends on each sector.

      In Ladakh sector most of the overlapping territory, which either side claim, will be won by China, considering their superior infra and logistics coming from interior Tibet to LAC. Once they reach Indian control areas , there would be stalemate. An example is current conflict in Galwan ,where both sides have makeshift camps, China can overwhelm that, but just 3 kms down the line India has a proper camp with infra and stuff.

      In Sikkim sector India is the strongest, terrain wise. In Arunachal , China still has a upper hand, but its touch and go. India’s population centers are only at risk, if Nepal allows its territories to be used by China.

  70. what might the real effect on india of a war with china. even in the event of china getting an upper hand, can china impose its conditions on india? can they occupy any population settled area?

    1. I read somewhere that for every war Pakistan has fought, irrespective of the outcome, they come out with a quomi tarana (“national song”) dedicated to it, which of course is always better than the other side

      1. @Saurav

        Pakistani national anthem is an interesting story. It almost set an upper bound to how much Persian can be passed off as Urdu. It is clear that the poet knew what he was doing but did it anyways. There was an earlier (although not supported by Pakistani historians) ‘Qoumi tarana’ written by some Punjabi Hindu guy that was chucked away. All kinds of funny things have happened including (wrongly) declaring August 14 as Indpendence day. At least we are here to witness this before Gazwa-e-Hind makes all future Indians start paying respects at the dargah of Mian Mitthoo (of Sindh forced conversion fame) and have ‘Mah narrative’ tattoed around their anuses, truth/history/fairness/justice be damned.

        Hindustan ka matlab kya? La ilaha illalaah!
        Wali-e-hind Aurangzeb Zindabaad!

        1. Nobody takes Ghazwa-e-Hind seriously.

          Stop trolling Pakistan. Don’t you have anything useful to do?

        2. Bhim

          Its alright bro, all national identities have liberal doses of myth, providence etc mixed up with it. As i have read more on other countries nationalist myths, i have come to appreciate Pakistan own creation as perhaps not that far outside the pale. Its alright, even we Indians have our own “creative theories”

          1. Yes I agree. This pure language crap is everywhere.
            Even I have been protesting against silly sounding complicated Sanskrit ‘sandhi’ names for babies being suggested by my family and friends.

  71. @ Kabir,
    “I said “Hindu Indian”. “Hindu Indian” is different from Hindu Nationalist. If I had wanted to call you a Hindu Nationalist, I would have used the term “Hindutvadi”. Are you going to deny that you are an Indian and a person of Hindu origin? Don’t question my command of English. It happens to be my NATIVE language. I doubt the same can be said of you.”

    English is indeed not my native language. How clever of you to guess. If you go back and check your posts, you will find that you have referred to me as both an Indian nationalist and a Hindu Indian. Now, most people, whether they have your level of command over English or not, would infer that I am being called a Hindu Indian nationalist, or, to put it in short form, a Hindu nationalist. It is possible that you are defining a new category, ‘Hindu nationalist’ when you actually mean Hindutva nationalist, but I doubt it. It is possible to be a Hindu and a nationalist without being a right-wing Hindutva nationalist, which is what you probably meant to imply – it is not for me to say. Your command over English seems not to have inured you to the difference.

    “Pakistan doesn’t really want Junagadh. Why would we want a bunch of extra Hindus? My intention was simply to call out Indian hypocrisy. You will never ever get Azad Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan. The Muslims of those areas have absolutely zero desire to be ruled by Hindus.”

    If you do not want it why did you ask whether India would give it back to Pakistan. Perhaps you raised the issue rhetorically – In that case my response should have pleased you. You say now that you do not want Junagarh, because of the Hindus there. Well, we certainly do not mind having the occupied bits of J&K back. For India an ‘extra bunch’ of Muslims is not an issue.

    “Balochistan is not a DISPUTED TERRITORY but unqivocally a part of Pakistan. You are either stupid or disingenuous to compare it to Occupied Kashmir. Balochistan was never a subject at the UN nor were the Baloch ever promised a plebsicite.”

    The Baluchis are disputing their inclusion in Pakistan, whether the UN acknowledges the matter or not. Your professed principle was the right of self determination by the local people of the area. You did not qualify your principle by saying that the UN should have pronounced on it. In the case of J&K it was not disputed till India took the matter to the UN. Now it no longer wishes UN interference.

    “I can go on shaming you but I have better things to do. Do not engage me again and I will leave you alone.”

    Please do not leave me alone; I rather enjoy these colloquys. I daresay, that given your command over English I shall be severely disadvantaged – but I am convinced that the need to uncover the truth must over-ride all fears of being overwhelmed by your superior linguistic arsenal.

    1. If I had meant to call you a Hindutvadi, I would have done it. Don’t play these stupid games with me.

      “For India an extra bunch of Muslims is not an issue”– Oh really? The Hindutvadis in your country would love to send all Indian Muslims to Pakistan. Don’t kid yourself.

      It is extremely disingenuous to compare Balochistan to Occupied Kashmir. You claim that you are interested in “facts”. Well, the FACT is that there is no other country that claims Balochistan. It is undisputedly part of Pakistan. The Baloch (not Baluchis as you spell it) are governing their own province and have been part of governments at the center. BNP-M was until recently in coalition with PTI.

      Kashmir remains DISPUTED no matter what you would like to think. There is a Line of Control and not an International Border. The entire world refers to the part of Kashmir under India’s control as Indian-administered or Indian-controlled Kashmir. No other country believes in the distorted maps you guys publish that show Pakistani territory as part of India.

      You’re beyond delusional and I am completely bored with you. As far as I’m concerned, you can go to hell.

  72. I posted the comment earlier, but it did not go through.

    @DaThang
    True.

    I am getting Frankenstein vibes from this: So, if we reset a Harappan body to its earlier state, we get a live Harappan. We can just record his speech and, ergo, our problem is solved. Not just this; but millennia long space travel; perpetual youth, i.e, just reset and relearn (Groundhog day with a twist https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107048/); and whatnot may become possible. Just thinking about the implications is mind boggling.

    Trivia: I heard a company is preserving dead bodies to reverse death one day in Russia (https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-cryonics-dead-people-vats-immortality-medvedev/28314196.html).

  73. Kabir, Kashmiris do complain about Indian inanities and mistakes by the Indian Army. Kashmiris are GREAT and want to be respected, honored and listend to as such.

    But discussions with Kashmiris are nuanced. If you want to dialogue with them it would help to model the deep inner peace, calmness and sweetness of Kashmiris. Music and song are pathways to the soul. To the calm breeze, beautiful sounds, Noor (light) and overflowing heart that some call meditation. Kashmiris are the lotus–unaffected by all around. {I love to look at and eat lotus root 🙂 }

    This is why Kashmiris are the best marriage partners.

    Love!

    1. Again, I am actually ethnically Kashmiri.

      Don’t give me these inanities about “music and song”. Your country is OCCUPYING Kashmiri Muslim land. Your delusions don’t change that.

  74. In the recent insito episode Dr. Wells notes that pre-neolithic HG art mostly depicts animals, this is generally true, but then there are the few figures with human faces that can be found (Dolni Vestonice and Malta Buret, with DV providing a case of a depiction of a specific person while MB showing a case of generic human form in an artistic/sculptural form). Probably developed in times that could have been precedents to sedentism that didn’t quite work out in the long run.

    That does make you think, if it happened a few times before the neolithic, maybe happened elsewhere as well.

  75. @Saurav and iamVY on Marathi/TN/Bengali nationalism,

    I know of at-least two Bengali guys from my graduate school who
    half jokingly say that India is a part of Bengal. Their argument is that Bengali nationalism is non-threatening because it is actually the Bengalis who have colonized rest of India by capturing academia, government, banks and even dictating India’s taste in arts. That India as a nation has been imagined and created by Bengalis so that they can lord over the rest of us. This is also the reason that they don’t hurt outsiders in Kolkata unlike the Moti-buddhi Punjabi/Haryanvi/Jatt people of Delhi or the tiffin carrying Marathi-manoos of Mumbai. They know that Bengalis benefit more from this arrangement.

    Some part of me thinks that had Islam not been such a poisonous influence (i.e. had it had a weaker pull than language/culture/sanity) even (Muslim) Bangladeshis would have thought similarly while ‘civilizing’ the rest of India, they seem to do good at school too.

    1. In the Bengali bhadralok mind, why just India, they are the lord of the universe.

      It would have been laughable had it not been tragic , the image of what they think they are, and what rest of Indians think they are.

      1. I don’t know why BB are lambasted like this . Nice guys and gals on the whole. People are free to feel superior on whatever ground as long as they have other redeeming features

  76. I feel with this China imbroglio going on, Pakistan must be feeling emboldened to try out another terrorist attack on India.
    If that happens, terrorist hideouts in Pakistan proper will be bombed from the air and this time the IAF would not be found wanting in assembling clear video footage of the bombing or dealing with the Pakistani counter attack.
    Interesting times.

      1. India will bomb Pakistan if Pakistani terrorists were to commit any attacks on India.
        Thats a fact, not a threat. Its not the 90s anymore.

        1. You bomb us and we will bomb Delhi to smithereens.

          Don’t even think about messing with the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. Bloody Hindutvadi.

      2. TBH, Pakistan can hardly threaten India with anything anymore and India don’t need to threaten Pakistan at all. Balakot has achieved a “cold start” to Pakistan, and that Pakistan remains in an active state ever since.
        In a way, I don’t think Modi or any other Indian leaders that make policies really talk about Pakistan anymore. Imran has been rambling like a broken radio for a while now and pretty much there is silence from the power corridors in India. That shows the importance of Pakistan in India’s policy making circles.

        1. I wouldn’t talk about threats if I were you. You’re the asshole who started this whole thing by threatening to bomb Pakistani population centers.

          Our foreign minister has again warned your government than any false-flag incidents and actions against Pakistan will be met with a strong response. So go ahead and try taking action against Pakistan. This time your captured pilot will not be given tea and sent back.

          1. “You’re the asshole who started this whole thing by threatening to bomb Pakistani population centers.”

            I’d suggested dropping bombs near them and not on them. But yeah, that difference would evade non-native English speakers like you.

            The misinterpretation has led you down a spiral that’s only reenforced to me that ultra-woke “liberals” are just a step away from turning blood thirsty Fascists themselves. Or that self-proclaimed “moderate” cultural Muslims can turn Islamists very easily.

            (Of course not everyone is like that but a significant section seems to just be LARPing)

          2. There’s nothing “Islamist” about pointing out that any Indian military action on Pakistani territory is going to be met with an equal and opposite reaction on Indian territory. No matter where people stand on the Pakistani political spectrum, we are all united when when it comes to threats to the homeland.

            Suggesting dropping bombs NEAR population centers is still a reprehensible statement. You are no one to call anyone else “fascist”. I had thought that you were one of the sensible commenters on this forum, but you have turned out to not be that different from the overt Hindutvadis.

  77. One thing I am surprised by is the utter lack of options Pakistan had about India’s removal of Article 370 from Kashmir and changing the status quo forever.

    Except for getting their proxies in America to cry about Islamophobia, Hindutva and Fascism they could do precious little.

    For all intents and purposes Modi has ‘solved’ the Kashmir issue between India and Pakistan.

  78. So Kabir wants Pakistan to continue sending terrorists to wreck havoc in Insia but India should do norhing in its defense. Bombing Pakistan is something India doesn’t want to do unilaterally, its a response to terror attacks on India.
    Pakistan, terror central that it is, needs to be coerced to change its behavior in accordance with civilized norms.

    1. I have repeatedly in the past made it clear that I am against any kind of armed “jihad”. Don’t make assumptions that you can’t back up.

      It’s easy for you Indians to talk big. But actually bombing the world’s only Muslim-majority nuclear power is another thing entirely. I dare you to try it. You push us hard enough and we are prepared to nuke you.

      It’s amazing that while “Hindu Hriday Samrat” just surrenders completely in front of China, you think you can get away with threatening Pakistan?

      As for “terror central”– generalizing about 200 million people just reveals your bigotry.

  79. 30% of pilots in Pakistan have fake flying licenses!
    What a shithole country. Barely keeping its head above central africa levels. If i were a Pakistani patriot, i would be more interested in removing army’s stranglehold over pakistan and improving the state of affairs inside Pakistan, rather than fighting civilizational battles or making irredentist claims on Pakistan’s behalf.

    A look at Pakistan’s cricket team gives one a good idea that the whole Pakistani society is going to the dogs. Its been in steady, sometimes precipitous decline since the 90s and now looks like a bunch of unfit, no skill dunderheads let loose on the field.

    The army appointed prime minister of pakistan seems to have only two jobs. Abusing india, modi and begging for money.

    This some repugnant shit, man!!

    1. Pakistani society’s jahiliyat was on full display when that perennial 18 year old cricketer said that he broke his TV because his young daughter saw Indian soaps.

      1. It’s his right as a father to keep his children away from what he regards as inappropriate for them.

        Nice to see you have managed to learn an Arabic word like “jahiliyat”. Maybe there’s hope for you people yet.

        1. Half of Pakistan, or may be more watches Bollywood movies, if people start breaking TV’s for that, there will be no TV sets in Pakistan.
          The point I was making is that, if an international cricketer who has played in India and alongside Indians for so many years has so much contempt for India and Indians in general, there is something deeply gone wrong in Jinnah’s version of Pakistaniyat.

          1. Shahid Afridi is a religious Muslim and is raising his children in accordance with that. He has the right to raise his children however he likes. You can do what you like with your children but you have no right to interfere in someone else’s private sphere.

    2. Your country is also a third-world Hindu majoritarian shithole.

      Stop trolling Pakistan and worry about keeping the rest of Ladakh. Hindu Hriday Samrat will meekly surrender as the Chinese take over. Where is that loser’s 56 inch chest and “Lal Ankh” when you need it?

      You Hindutvadis are pathetic scum.

    3. @Janamajeya

      Lets not get ahead of ourselves. Indian DGCA are a bunch of clowns and we have had too many near misses recently. A big aviation accident in India is very likely given the laxness.

      ‘An Air India aircraft, carrying more than 136 people, landed on a wrong runway at the Male airport in the Maldives, and following the incident two pilots have been taken off duty, officials said.’

      https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/transportation/airlines-/-aviation/air-india-plane-lands-on-wrong-runway-at-male-airport/articleshow/65722046.cms?from=mdr

      Mangalore 2019: An Air India Express flight veered off the runway after landing and got stuck in soft ground at the Mangalore airport on Sunday.

      Funniest one in Riyadh 2018:
      ‘Jet Airways flight from Riyadh to Mumbai that aborted takeoff last week at the Riyadh airport was not even on the runway when the incident took place, putting the lives of 150 passengers on board at risk, Saudi officials have revealed.’

      https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/jet-airways-riyadh-mumbai-flight-attempted-taking-off-on-taxiway-saudi-probe-1306253-2018-08-06

      There are lots of others easily into the double digits annually. I saw a video of Indian pilots (Indigo) who brushed on the grass between taxiway and runway while trying to land before making emergency takeoff. These are not unavoidable accidents but rather mishaps due to a lack of professionalism. Really scary stuff.

      On fake pilots, India used to lead the way but I think things have improved. We used to have thousands of them until recently.

      ‘The licences of 14 pilots have been revoked by India’s aviation authorities as they were allegedly proved to be flying with fake documents. A police probe found a flying club had issued “fake records” of their training sessions, India’s civil aviation chief, Bharat Bhushan, told the BBC .Earlier this month the licences of seven pilots were cancelled because of fake certificates. The licences of 4,000 pilots are being checked for irregularities.’

      https://www.bbc.com/news/world-south-asia-12857742#:~:text=The%20licences%20of%2014%20pilots,Bharat%20Bhushan%2C%20told%20the%20BBC%20.

      On Pakistani tragedy:
      The Pakistanis are wrongly scape-goating the airport flight controller, who did his job well, the pilot and the pre-flight maintenance people were at fault.

      In general Pakistanis (seem to) suck at institutional course corrections after tragedies (even) more than Indians do. Examples include train accidents followed by nothing being done. Hopefully we will be able to pre-empt any aviation tragedy in India.

      1. I agree with everything you say about the state of affairs in India. However I do feel this fake degree business is prevalent much more in Pakistan than in India. Indian society and institutions mostly operate at a level where a fake degree would be just useless. A person trying such a thing would be easily caught. Most people would not think buying a fake degree would be a good investment. However in Pakistan as the Axact university business brought to light, all this seems rather common. Somehow it also seems ‘cheating’ of all kinds seems to be a lot more prevalent and tolerated in Pakistan. Falsifying one’s age to ridiculous levels, match-fixing in cricket are also examples.

        My point also was to show that a nationalist and a patriot should worry more about his own country. And Pakistanis have a lot to worry about and improve upon. I have never seen Kabir say one critical word against Pakistan or even make a measured statement about the state of affairs. He is always either trying to prove how others do not measure up against the ideals they espouse or plain bad-mouthing and abusing Indians, Hindus etc.

        1. I agree that there are a lot of things that can be improved on in Pakistan. I would be happy to discuss those things if Pakistan were ever the topic of a blog post. Also, I don’t believe that the Hindutvadis here ever discuss Pakistan in good faith. You only cherry pick things so that you can troll my country and feel better about your own (which by no means is a civilized developed country but yet another South Asian majoritarian shithole).

  80. @kabir – Are you often the lone warrior from the Pakistani perspective on this blog. I am a recent joiner of this blog community. A lot of threads seem to go this way bro. I have never personally never communicated with a Pakistani before – NRP or otherwise

    1. Yes, I am one of the few Pakistanis who comment here. I have been here for a couple of years and have noticed that of late it has turned into much more of a Hindutvadi forum than it used to be. This thread has been particularly bad with people actually suggesting bombing Pakistan. That doesn’t usually happen.

      1. All anyone ever said was if Pakistan were to carry out an attack on India through its terrorist proxies, India is going to bomb terrorist hideouts in Pakistan through its Air Force. As it did in Balakot.

        This was no reason for you to go off the handle and start abusing people and calling them ‘a**holes’.

        1. Don’t rewrite history. It was Prats who last week suggested bombing Pakistani cities (he now claims he suggested bombing NEAR Pakistani cities). This is a redline for any Pakistani. I will not tolerate threats to my homeland.

  81. ‘Mah life, Ma rules, Ma Narrative’

    “Talking on a chat show hosted by one Nida Yasir, on a Pakistani TV channel, the cricketer brazenly, taking pride in what he did, said he lost his temper when he found one of his children watching a Hindu ritual being shown on the Indian channel Star Plus, and smashed the TV set. While the interviewer looks delighted on listening to Afridi’s anti-Hindu rants, the Pakistani audience can also be seen applauding the cricketer for his defiance against Hindu rituals and customs.”

    https://sports.ndtv.com/cricket/shahid-afridi-reveals-he-smashed-tv-after-daughter-imitated-aarti-scene-while-watching-show-watch-2156141?amp=1&akamai-rum=off

    btw even watching TV is not allowed but wearing umbrella is the little girls’ voluntary choice.

    Grandfather was (for Shahid a matter of pride) ‘Ghazi-e-Kashmir’, (for looting and raping) while cousin was sent to 72 40 year old male virgins by IA.

    “Identified as Shaquib, Shahid Afridi’s first cousin, was killed in an encounter with the BSF on September 7, 2003. The BSF had described Shaquib after the encounter as a battalion commander of the Harkat-ul-Ansar, which later took the name of the Lashkar-e-Taiba, another front of Jamaat-ud-Dawa of Hafiz Saeed, the designated global terrorist. Documents recovered from Shaquib proved his connection with Shahid Afridi’s family, the BSF had then said. Shaquib hailed from Peshawar and had been operating operating in the Anantnag area for about a-year-and-half before he was killed.”

    https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/india/story/shahid-afridi-rants-about-kashmir-terrorist-cousin-was-killed-in-anantnag-his-tribe-had-invaded-valley-in-1947-1205211-2018-04-05

    Has some very interesting views about women: https://www.dawn.com/news/1092485

    And (the match fixer) Danish Kaneria had alleged (also confirmed by Showing Akhtar) Afridi would discriminate on the basis of religion.

    May he become the next PM of Pakistan. Truly exemplifies the national values of the country- Islam, Boot, Jihad, pro-umbrella, and anti-Hindu.

    1. Imagine, this guy used to play with Indian cricketers, obviously most of them practicing Hindus, visited India on several occasions act this way, I don’t see any hope for the general population of Pakistan to ever understand India.

      //Shahid Afridi is a religious Muslim and is raising his children in accordance with that//

      Not sure if this would be a contentious topic, but Kabir, you said, Shahid Afridi is a religious muslim, per my understanding, in Islam, it is either you are a believer or a non-believer. So what is this specific tag that you are attributing to Shahid Afridi?

      1. Just as in other religions, Islamic practice is on a spectrum. There are a few fundamentals (belief in Allah and His Prophet etc) but other than that people vary in how closely they adhere to normative Islam. Many people have no problems with Bollywood films, but Shahid Afridi does. That is his right. No conservative Muslim father would want his daughter to imitate Hindu rituals.

        One doesn’t have to defend everything Afridi has ever said, but it is his right to raise his children in accordance with his values. Also, I don’t think there is any contradiction between playing cricket with Indians (He’s a cricketer. It’s his job to play whoever Pakistan’s opponents are)and being offended by his children picking up Hindu culture.

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