Post about whatever you find interesting.
Here is an insightful interview between Karan Thapar and Shyam Saran (former Foreign Secretary) focusing on Indo-US relations
Check out this clip from Pakistan Idol. This is a just a teaser of highlights from the Lahore audition round.ย I believe that the contestants were told they could not sing Indian songs, which seems to be primarily a way to avoid everyone defaulting to Bollywood (There is also probably a patriotic angle).ย After all, we have our own great composers and singers such as Medhi Hassan, Farida Khanum, Noor Jehan, and Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan.ย At the level of classical music, the tradition is obviously part of a shared culture.
There is a lot of musical talent in Pakistan and proper training would help to nurture it.ย However, with all the other issues that the country is facing, art and culture have never really been a priority.ย Finally, as a classically-trained musician myself, it is my firm belief that one cannot be successful in any kind of music without a firm foundation in Hindustani classical (which was the case with the greats such as Medhi Hassan, Madam Noor Jehan, and Farida Khanum).ย India has obviously owned this culture much more than Pakistan–the reasons behind this are the subject of my dissertation.
m j akbar probably published a new book. he has been talking about astrology with in mughal courts, theory of distance, pakistan being a jelly state and middle east. i am attaching an interesting video. the audio and video are bad but the content is good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iL4iJNKA6eA
this video is bit better,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_prXhB2uEM0
I recently read a critique of his ideas. You may like to read: https://thesouthasianidea.wordpress.com/2011/04/30/tinderbox-the-past-and-future-of-pakistan-a-review/
>Akbar ascribes this divergence to the fact that โthe idea of India is stronger than the Indian [while] the idea of Pakistan is weaker than the Pakistani.โ But the claim is never really articulated or established, deriving its plausibility from retroactive knowledge of what was to happen. Akbar conflates the idea with the mode of governance when he states that โsecular democracy, a basis of the modern state, was the irreducible ideology of India, while the germ of theocracy lay in Pakistanโs genes.โ This is tantamount to saying that a secular democracy would always do better than a theocracy โ this might or might not be true, but it does little to explain how the former is stronger than the Indian and the latter weaker than the Pakistani.
I am curious, do you agree or disagree?
I’m not about to answer for Furqan, but I can give you my answer (which you will probably not like):
I think the argument that a secular democracy would always do better than a theocracy is in most cases correct. However, Akbar made this argument prior to 2014. Many people today would argue (and of course you are free to disagree with them) that India has lost a lot of credibility on the secularism front in the last 11 years. As a factual matter, the proportion of Muslims elected to the Lok Sabha is the lowest it has been for a long time.
Pakistan is not a theocracy. It is an Islamic Republic.
Full disclosure: the review that Furqan posted was written by my father.
Also while I’m on this point: “The South Asian Idea” was meant to be a blog that provided a way for Indians and Pakistanis (particularly young people) to learn to argue properly in an intellectual manner.
Some of the blog posts were collected into a book entitled Social and Political Concerns in Pakistan and India: Critical Conversations for College Students. You can read the review in DAWN:
https://www.dawn.com/news/1842899
I guess BP has inherited that .. and Sapan news
My dad spent a lot of time engaging with commenters and trying to get them to see the problems in their arguments. It was very much an educative role.
He also didn’t let people yell at each other. So there was heavy moderation.
Kabir – It’s not about agreeing or disagreeing. Your comment reflects a disconnect to the ground reality of Muslims in India.
In 2024, Civil Services Examination results had as many as 51 Muslims in the list of successful candidates. Such a number was unheard of during the pre 2014 Secular era that you seem to be fondly recollecting.
Ibn Khaldun Bharati is a writer I follow. There are lots of solid articles on here: https://theprint.in/author/ibn-khaldun-bharati/
He writes under a pseudonym because he fears for his own life from his own ilk, all for expressing his opinions. He writes for The Wire also.
In an article, “Muslims need a Ram Mohan Roy or Ambedkar of their own. Ditch Hindu left and liberal leaders”, he makes an important point:
“The patron-client relationship between Hindu liberals and Muslim communalists is the greatest impediment to the secularization, mainstreaming, and progress of Muslims.”
There are fewer Muslims in the political arena precisely because this system of patronage that was exploited by a few elite Muslims at the expense of others, has been completely dismantled, primarily by the Hindu electorate, which was fed up of it. This void can now only be filled by a new set of Muslims who necessarily must represent a broader spectrum of Indians, not just their own ilk. Otherwise, they can forget seeing any political office again.
The real crisis for Muslims of India is this : They cannot reform by themselves. By reform I simply mean moving on with the times. The Hindus have given up forcing reform within the Muslim community. Unfortunately, in the absence of any external intervention, the ghettos of 21st century India will be filled with a lot of Muslims who would have only themselves to blame as they would have been left behind because of their own religious intransigence.
Once again, the fact that Muslim representation in the Lok Sabha is at historic lows says a lot about India’s claims to secularism.
Your ruling party frankly hates Muslims. It’s apparent for all to see.
No amount of long comments from you are going to change my mind about this. You’re entitled to your right-wing views but frankly they are not intellectually convincing.
>Your ruling party frankly hates Muslims.
Which party appointed Abdul Kalam as India’s president?
I mean, its obvious that the BJP tent does attract and tolerate if not outright encourage some egregriously explicit bigoted politicians. But the reality is a lot more complex than your blanket assertion.
I struggle to understand why you lose all sight of complexity and objectivity when it comes to certain topics, but suddenly regain it on others.
The BJP of 2014 onwards is not the same as the pre 2014 BJP. Today’s BJP would never appoint a Muslim president. Let’s not kid ourselves.
As for “blanket assertions”, you have no problem with generalizing about Pakistan in egregious ways but suddenly become defensive when it comes to India.
Kabir’s note: Voided for tone. Watch how you speak to me if you don’t want your comments deleted.
>I think the argument that a secular democracy would always do better than a theocracy is in most cases correct
“Most cases”? But fine, I’ll take the grudging acknowledgement of an obvious fact.
>Many people today would argue (and of course you are free to disagree with them) that India has lost a lot of credibility on the secularism front in the last 11 years
As an expat, I can’t make confident assertions about India because I lack first-hand experiences, but from a distance yes, culturally the signs of reduced secularism are visible, and for me personally, its to some degree of disappointment if not distress.
However, our prior friction has been primarily due to the OTT exaggerated claims that you make, also without much actual first-hand experiences in present-day India. And no, reading blatantly agenda driven publications like scroll, wire etc do not serve as ‘evidence’. If one is to have an honest “intellectual” conversation about this, you cannot just wave your hands and magically pretend that the incentives and agendas for these mouthpieces do not exist.
Btw, This isn’t to somehow claim that anything and everything those outlets report is ‘fiction’.
I appreciate the effort you made to respond to my question, and the additional context you provided behind the review.
My father wrote that review in 2011–at a time when Congress was governing India. Were he to write the review today, I’m sure he would have used much stronger language.
The fact that Muslims are not represented in Parliament in proportion to their percentage of the population says a lot about secularism in India.
“Scroll” and “Wire” are obviously left-leaning publications. No one is saying they are not. Again, I’m a left-wing person. I’m not going to read right-wing publications.
However, you probably don’t even bother to read DAWN regularly. So your claims about Pakistan are really not worth taking seriously.
I used to read dawn almost daily for more than a decade. Back when my ‘newsjunkie’ phase was strong. Now its only occasionally.
Depressingly, I have read it long enough to see the obvious signs of censorship in the tenor and content of the reporting on that site.
Well, your views about Pakistan that you’ve expressed on BP certainly don’t reflect a familiarity with DAWN.
DAWN is a centrist Pakistani site. Its editorial line is probably even more progressive than the average Pakistani newspaper. My dad writes for DAWN occasionally and says sometimes quite scathing things about Pak Army (which sometimes DAWN edits out because they don’t want to get into trouble)
Aasim Sajjad Akhtar (Pervez Hoodbhoy’s son-in-law) writes a regular column every Friday and he’s super leftist.
Is there a Saffroniate boycott going on?
Looks lite it.
If that’s the case, it’s quite sad.
I don’t think that anyone’s participation needs to be at the cost of anyone else’s. People just need to observe a minimum amount of basic respect.
I would be quite happy to not participate in discussions on caste and other Hinduism specific issues if they want to have those discussions.
yes it feels there is a strike going on against the lifting of your interdiction?
I’m not a mind reader but I think it has less to do with me being back and more to do with the fact that you offended them by highlighting their upper-caste origins.
But as you say, BP is a broad church and nothing stops them from articulating their POVs as posts (as Archer did). I’m honestly happy to leave the “Saffroniate’s” posts alone entirely as long as nothing egregiously awful is said about Pakistan.
And to be fair, it’s not all of them. Daves has commented on this very open thread.
Did I say something offensive?
Honestly, I am trying not to get cynical about your recent posts because I continue to believe your intentions are ‘good’.
But your ….opinions on caste at times can seem, more than a bit, broad-brushed. I personally am fine with criticism,discussions on caste, but that acceptance is unlikely to extend when such discussions are weaponized, and extrapolated cherry-picked assertions are thrown about as ‘fact’. That sort of thing, will lead to reduced discourse, I fear.
I don’t think so. But clearly some of them didn’t like being called out as Brahmin. Also probably they aren’t that happy about me being made an admin.
may not be the case. indian classical music is rather esoteric. people do listen but only a few can comment. so….
also to kabir, it is noticed that most indian classical music is a form of bhakti to the gods. how does classical music in pakistan manage this?
indian classical music is a form of bhakti to the gods. how does classical music in pakistan manage this?
Good question
Hindustani classical music is a product of Indo-Islamic culture. This is not my opinion but a matter of scholarly consensus. Its patron saint is Hazrat Amir Khusrao–someone who was very much a Muslim. It developed in the Mughal courts–rulers who were again very much Muslim. As late as the early twentieth century, all major gharana founders were Muslim.
As for the compositions (bandishes) themselves: in Pakistan we don’t sing the ones that explicitly reference Hindu gods. However, most bandishes are about longing for the beloved and are written from the perspective of a woman longing for her lover (the virahini). There’s nothing specifically Hindu about them.
South Asian Athletics Championships 2025
How come Lanka with 22 million versus Indias 1200 million (1.2 billion gives a run for the money.
India: 20 golds and Total of 58 medals.
Sri Lanka: 16 golds Total of 40 medals.
Fatima Faisa Yanic won 3 gold medals (far right in attached photo). Fastest woman in South Asia
Its “south asian” games. Someone has to win out of the participants. How about we compare Indian and Sri Lankan medal hauls in the Asian games over the last decade or so?
This is where so many people fall into the trap of using data without the requisite context.
Btw, this is not meant to be derisive about the SAG – its important for athletes to have competition and even success at lower levels which in turn can help them prepare for more competitive events.
I would be curious about where the funding for the South Asian Games comes from, I’d think India is probably doing much of the heavy lifting on that front.
my curiosity made me search it up, the most recent Asian games saw India get 28 golds to one for SL, 106 total vs 5.
Are you able to see your own lack of objectivity, even when its pointed out?
Below is the link to Asian Games Medal list upto 2022
South Asian games was mainly sprint types events (100m, Hurdles etc)
Asian Games includes all Olympic events, including short putt and javelin
My opinion is that India does well in “strength” events.
Sri Lanka does well in “running” events/
Much like Jamaica compared to US
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-time_Asian_Games_medal_table#Ranked_medal_table
https://toosimple.substack.com/p/come-on-then-lets-discuss-uk-china?
Hello Folks, posting here after a very long while. Hope everyone is doing great.
Saw Kabir and Zachary are back.
Are the old posters (Saurav, Bhimrao, Numinous etc) still around?
Hi Prats. Great to hear from you again.
It’s a whole new group of people mostly. “Numinous” still comments occasionally. His new handle is “Pandit Brown”.
oh really
I don’t know actually. Welcome back
Welcome back Prats
I sbarrkum the Sri Lankan do comment regularly
A landmark paper on ancient indian genetics has been published recently in Nature. Can we have discussion on that please? Not on boring old politics that has now consumed this page.
Hi Rajorshi,
Razib no longer posts on BP so we don’t really have anyone who has any expertise in genetics.
If you would like to suggest topics other than “boring old politics”, those suggestions would be welcome.
On the Left in Pakistan:
https://leftofpakistan.substack.com/p/maulvi-ji-ab-kaho
” ‘Itthead’: Interfaith love and coexistence in Sindh’s first woman writer, Guli Sadarangani’s novel”
https://scroll.in/article/1086656/ittehad-interfaith-love-and-coexistence-in-sindhs-first-woman-writer-guli-sadaranganis-novel
will he dump her? will she swallows very thing and be a dumb wife. will he marry ‘her’?
or is it the ‘liberals’ are just overplaying it?
On Malala’s new book:
“Malala, Empire, the Algorithm and What We Get Wrong About Liberation” by Sahar Habib Ghazi
https://saharhabibghazi.substack.com/p/malala-empire-algorithm-liberation