What We Did
Brown Pundits was founded as a diaspora project. A handful of Brown people thinking out loud about where they came from, what it meant, and whether the subcontinent could be understood in English without either romanticising it or apologising for it.
What happened instead was stranger and more valuable. The site became a place where the subcontinent argues with itself in public, without editorial supervision, without a line to hold, and without the particular kind of cowardice that afflicts publications which need to keep everybody happy.
Over the past week, we forced the archive into coherence. All 3,987 published posts; every Open thread, Genetics argument, Civilisational essay, Partition debate, BrownCast episode, Film review, Obituary, every Moderation notice, are now part of a single navigable structure. For the first time, the site can be read not as a sequence of posts, but as a narration.
What the Archive Revealed
The Partition of India is not a historical event on this site. It is a living emergency. Every argument we have had about Pakistan’s identity, India’s secularism, the Muslim League, Jinnah that is QeA, the two-nation theory, Bangladesh’s founding, the treatment of minorities across all three successor states; all of it is 1947 refusing to close. The wound keeps producing arguments because it was never properly treated. The British left. The questions they left behind did not. Brown Pundits has been, among other things, one of the few places in the English-speaking world where those questions are fought over by people who have actual stakes in the answers, not just professional opinions about them.
Pax Persica
The Persianate thread runs deeper than most readers know, including most of our own commenters. This site has been arguing, since nearly the beginning, about what it means that the Persianate world receded; for Urdu, for the Mughal inheritance, for Pakistan’s civilisational identity crisis, for the relationship between India and Iran that exists beneath and before the Islamic period.
That argument has become more urgent, not less, as Iran’s geopolitical position has transformed over the past year. The archive contains the prehistory of what you are watching on the news. It is one of the things that makes this site genuinely irreplaceable, and it is almost entirely unread.
Our Genetics Trove
The genetics archive is BP’s most singular contribution to the English-speaking world. Razib Khan built something here that does not exist anywhere else at this level of accessibility: a decade of South Asian population genetics; Aryan migration, caste endogamy, the Indus Valley, steppe ancestry, the Dravidian substrate, translated for a general reader and argued over in the comments by people who knew what they were talking about. The implications of that science for the stories South Asians tell about themselves are enormous and mostly unabsorbed. The archive is sitting there waiting.
The diaspora thread is messier, more personal, more argumentative, and more honest about what it actually feels like to be Brown in the West than almost anything published in mainstream media. It is not a coherent argument. It is a record of people working something out in real time, across a decade, with varying degrees of success. That is its value. The working-out is the content.
Controversy that is Caste
And then there is caste. The single most argued-about topic on this site, it turns out. More than Kashmir. More than Modi. More posts touching the caste system than any named historical figure or geopolitical crisis. This is because caste is not a topic. It is the grammar of South Asian social life, and no amount of political modernity has dissolved it. Every argument about representation, about genetics, about the diaspora, about Hindu nationalism, about Pakistan’s class structure; they all eventually arrive at caste. Brown Pundits has been arguing about this honestly, which means uncomfortably, which means productively.
What the archive proves, above all, is that the triad at the centre of this site, Indic civilisation, Islamic civilisation, Identity, is not a set of categories. It is an ongoing collision. The three have never resolved into synthesis. They keep producing new arguments in new forms because the underlying tensions have not been settled by history. They have only been deferred.
What Next
Roughly Eighty-two thousand comments. Eleven years. The tagging is only the beginning.
Over the coming weeks we will be building out thematic thread pages; curated reading paths through the archive on Partition, genetics, the Persianate world, caste, the diaspora, and Indo-Pak relations.
The goal is to make fifteen years of argument accessible to someone arriving here for the first time, without burying them in the post stream.
In the meantime: use the tags. Find a thread. Follow it backward. You will discover that someone was making your argument in 2016, that someone else demolished it in 2017, and that the demolition was itself demolished in 2019, and that all three positions are still alive in the comment section of a post from last month. This is not a publication. It is a record of an argument that refuses to end.
Indian military knew what Pakistan was up to.
in those days there was a,’peace constituency ‘ , also known as wagah border candle wallas(kuldeep SINGH etc) , who wanted peace any cost. There were elements in the establishment who were sympathetic to this idea (Mani Shankar iyer types)
There were some in Pakistan who nursed these people’s egos, by convincing that India needs to keep on talking to the good guys in Pakistan inspite of terrorism.
Vajapayee’s team also went with this charade. Even modi tried this in his first term.
Now there are no takers for this circus.
// Over the coming weeks we will be building out thematic thread pages; curated reading paths through the archive on Partition, genetics, the Persianate world, caste, the diaspora, and Indo-Pak relations. //
Waiting for them & best wishes.
1) People in Pakistan don’t really care about this now – not even those who actually migrated from India. Infact most of us don’t even care about 1971. So this obsession always seems very one sided. You can see this in Pakistani media & podcasters, nobody laments it.
2) The partition was of Punjab and Bengal.
Pakistani Punjab has largely moved on, and other ethnic groups and provinces never had any connection to any part of India in any meaningful way.
Agreed. Pakistanis are generally not emotional about Partition.
Indians see it as the “vivisection of Bharat Mata”. XTM has already written about how many Hindus consider India’s borders to be sacred.
As far as Pakistanis are concerned, British India’s borders were administratively determined by the Raj. A colony is not a nation-state. The Muslim-majority parts of the colony had the absolute right to opt out of a Hindu-majority nation-state.
I will disagree on “never had any connection to any part of India”– Delhi and Lucknow were great centers of Muslim culture. Hyderabad Deccan was a great center of Muslim culture.
I agree with XTM that Pakistan is part of what he calls “Indian civilization”. This is just historically true. My disagreement is with the notion that “India that is Bharat” should be a “civilization state”. This is not even the position of the Congress Party.
Key word: ‘Muslim culture’ which may give some connection to Indian Muslims today but not with India or Hinduism. Different language, different religions, different outlook to lives. Some similar cultural practises and usage simialr spice in food does not make a common civilization.
when you dance to the same music, eat the same food, curse the same, and celebrate seasons with essentially the same rituals, the ‘religion’ overhang that TNT-ers like to fixate on does not make a “different” civilization.
What a high signal comment! This perfectly encapsulates the subcon Muslim outlook – we share space with the non-Muslims but we have nothing to do with this land other than its language, culture, food and some local genes. Of course, how Muslims came to be magically airdropped here from Iran/Arabia is not to be queried.
Hard for non-Muslims then not to take this to its logical conclusion – Muslims are interloping colonisers who have nothing to do with this land and should not be given the same rights and privileges and should be treated the same as the Anglos that were kicked out.
It was/is very much Indian Muslim culture and developed with cross pollination with Hindus.
You can’t divorce either India or Hindu from Pakistani culture.
If it was just “Muslim culture” Pakistanis were after, they would be speaking Arabic and eating shawarma.
You can’t hide what you are, S Qumar.
And you can’t divorce Pakistan or Islam from Indian or Hindu culture tbh.
Never said you could. Especially North Indian culture.
I see Pakistanis as strayed Muslim Indians anyway (the Indic part of Pakistan that is).
Pakistanis may not care about it but a large part of their own history and culture, including why they want to see themselves as the edge of the Islamic world rather than the frontier of the indic world is a result of partition.
Even the whole reason your military has such an oversized role is down to partition.
Indians just seem to be more cognizant about partition because the communities displaced in 1947, 1971, 1991 and even today, have a huge space in the national imagination.
Muhajirs determine(d) the cultural life of Pakistan for decades.. they are very focussed on Partition
This is a view from 1960. We are now in the 3rd and 4th generation, most don’t care.. there are no discussions about partition or India in Muhajir drawing rooms, it’s as distant as the Anglo American is to Britian.
Are you a Muhajir?
Wouldn’t we expect muhajirs have the least partition trauma? (exclude the Iranics for now) They are the voluntary migrants, often from pedigreed families who were connected enough to be ensured respectable roles or business opportunities in the new country. Also,wasn’t there a fair bit of back and forth travel and family visits in the 50/60/70s? I know plenty of memons who move seemlessly between karachi, chennai and mumbai, and they are very pragmatic about national identity. Then the urdu guys with roots in UP or even deccan, seem very intellectually connected to Pakistan but also clued in to the reality of life in India as a muslim because they probably have some channel or another of communication, or they have diaspora family with Indian friends ect.
why trauma? initially they got an entire country to rule.
I had met many in gulf years back, yes some were nostalgic but had no trauma.
But almost all(urdu speakers) had a resentment that they were being marginalized.
An interesting thought I had.
When people get rich, their TFR lowers.
Punjabis and Pathans have vast hinterlands to replace their urban cohorts in Lahore/Peshawar.
Muhajirs in Karachi/Hyderabad don’t because their hinterland is in UP/Bihar/MP.
Thus their numbers are declining constantly without replenishment.
Hence it is inevitable that Karachi/Hyderabad become Sindhi again.
My father and his siblings used to go to Agra every year by train to see their maternal grandparents and relatives. My paternal grandfather was an official in the Pakistan Railways so this was possible. Obviously, this stopped after the 1965 War.
I wouldn’t minimize the trauma of people like my grandmother who suddenly found that her parents and one of her brothers were now living in a hostile state.
You can read Qurratulain Hyder on the experience of Partition for the UP Muslim.
Damn we cleared the spam but it seems a few comments went to Spam; we saw your name.
I think a reply to Qureshi also went to spam? Check?
My position has always been that Pakistan is very much a South Asian country. More than half our population is Punjabi. We are not different from Punjabis across the Radcliffe Line except that we are Muslim and they are Hindu or Sikh.
The military has an “oversized role” because they are seen as the defenders of the country from India which is regarded as an existential enemy. We have fought four wars with India. The Kashmir Dispute remains the unfinished business of Partition. This is the official Pakistani view.
Your “communities displaced” argument is factually wrong. As I said, more than 50% of Pakistanis are Punjabi. Punjab was divided and ethnically cleansed.
Perhaps the difference in attitudes towards Partition is explained by the fact that Indians see it as a “vivisection of Bharat Mata”– I believe this is what is officially taught in your schools– while Pakistanis see it as the birth of a new nation. For us, the borders of British India are seen as arbitrary and not sacred in any way.
To get a better sense of my viewpoint, you can read the following:
https://kabiraltaf.substack.com/p/a-tryst-with-destiny-reflections
For what it’s worth, Partition had a huge impact on my family. My paternal grandmother’s relatives left Agra for Karachi (one brother and her parents remained in Agra since we had a business there–which we still have). My grandmother married my grandfather (who was from Peshawar) and went with him first to East Pakistan and then to West Pakistan.
My maternal grandfather’s relatives fled Amritsar for Sialkot. My maternal grandmother was born and bred in West Punjab (what became Pakistan) so she was not personally impacted.
//Perhaps the difference in attitudes towards Partition is explained by the fact that Indians see it as a “vivisection of Bharat Mata”– I believe this is what is officially taught in your schools– while Pakistanis see it as the birth of a new nation. For us, the borders of British India are seen as arbitrary and not sacred in any way.//
Many Indians are quite clear about why partition is something to be taken seriously
The fear that this can happen to them as well. Which has only gotten worst with things like the Kashmiri Pandit exodus l, cross border terrorism, Bangladeshi Islamization leading to more hindu refugees. This fear is what drives concerns of growth of muslim and to a certain extent christian population in India.
Other than muhajirs, and some muslim punjavis Pakistan never went through this.
Are you Goan Christian by way of ethnic background?
My direct ancestors come from mangalore who ultimately are goan catholic converts.
oh very interesting.
You have the East Indian Catholics of Bombay, the very numerous Goans and then the Mangaloreans. such a fascinating history
Kerala catholics too who unlike the others weren’t Hindu originally but Syrian christians.
Current split is roughly 50-50.
My guide told me when I went to Kerala recently.
Will put up a post someday (currently in the northeast for which I will put up another post).
Indeed. The horrors of the Portuguese inquisition resulted in what are today’s Goan and Mangalorean Christians.
1) sometime back, Mario Miranda speaking to rajdeep had made a comment that they have started giving offerings to their ancestoral deities such as Shanta Durga etc.
Is it just an elite thing or is it more common among Catholics?
2)how deep is castesim in the goan catholic community?
3) one another thing is that many Catholics are having apparently Hindu first names like Naveen, Dileep, Rohan, etc. This is a development after the seventies I think or did it start earlier?
Yes, many old Saraswat Brahmin converts contributed to rebuilding all the older temples demolished during the Portuguese time.
The Vasai Catholics (not sure about the Goans) still follow Hindu customs and many indeed have Hindu first names.
//sometime back, Mario Miranda speaking to rajdeep had made a comment that they have started giving offerings to their ancestoral deities such as Shanta Durga etc.
Is it just an elite thing or is it more common among Catholics?//
It is an individual thing. There is no significant hatred or tendency to disavow hindu culture( there are even some attempts to use advaita vedanta to develop an indigenous theology, particularly the works of swami vivekanand) but actual worship is rare. Some individuals who are eclectic like her or people like Samantah Ruth Prabhu, may participate in individual worship but by and large the connection is cultural and philosophical amongst some quarters, but aside from some individual who may also associate with the sangh, worship is uncommon.
//2)how deep is castesim in the goan catholic community//
As deep as it is in other neighbouring communities. It is something that expresses itself in the form of negative stereotypes, certain people lacking refinements and thwre is some hesitation to marry people who come from dalit or tribal backgrounds. Plus even my own parents have spoken against reservation.
//one another thing is that many Catholics are having apparently Hindu first names like Naveen, Dileep, Rohan, etc. This is a development after the seventies I think or did it start earlier?//
I am not certain about this.
May I remind you that Punjab was ethnically cleansed? Your underplaying this is actually offensive to my maternal relatives who had to flee Amritsar.
Pakistan was itself “Partitioned” in 1971. This is a deep national trauma.
I apologise for any insults. It was unintended and am sorry your maternal relatives had to go through that.
As I had mentioned, the some punjabis are east punjabi muslims who I am aware had to leave their homes like Sindhi and west punjabi hindus and Sikhs. The me memory of partition will no doubt be present in their cultures even today
I will not be getting into your views on creation of bangladesh, however can we both agree that the experience of 1971 is different from that of 1947 for India, Pakistan and both Bangladeshi hindus and muslims, with Bangladeshi hindus getting the worst outcome of all?
Bihari Muslims got the worst outcome of all. Their killings by Awami League nationalists for not supporting the Indian backed seperation agenda, started Operation Searchlight. They were also the most genocided group in the entire war and remained in limbo for decades after due to their support for Pakistan. Their history is not forgotten
I accept your apology. The point was that Punjab and Bengal were the only provinces that were divided. Punjab was completely ethnically cleansed (on both sides).
My point with respect to 1971 was that East Pakistan was unequivocally Pakistani territory. India–a hostile state–intervened in what was essentially a civil war.
Pakistan lost part of its sovereign territory. India has not lost any territory since 1947.
This is a huge national trauma. We will never forgive or forget that India took Pakistani land.
//This is a huge national trauma. We will never forgive or forget that India took Pakistani land.//
But India did not take any pakistani land. Bangladesh is a sovereign country.
There would have been no Bangladesh had India not intervened.
Indira Gandhi was called “Durga” for breaking the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.
Anyway, Pakistan is now a nuclear power. India will never be able to break Pakistan again.
Actually India took a bit in Kashmir.
Some villages in Kargil were Pakistani pre-1971.
To be pedantic about it, Indian Punjab has muslim majority Malerkotla district and Haryana has Nuh/Mewat as muslim majority district. Google did not return any such district on the Pakistan side.
None of the districts of Pakistan Punjab were Hindu/Sikh majority according to the 1941 census while a couple of Muslim districts were given to India.
Exactly.
Pakistan should have been given Gurdaspur. But then India would have had no access to Kashmir.
Asides from Malerkotla (which was a Muslim princely state), Punjab was ethnically cleansed on both sides.
1) Did the west Punjabi really feel bad about loosing east Pakistan? Military defeat is one thing, but was there an emotional connect? Did the common Punjabi marry Bangla women and vice versa?
2) on the popular Pakistani talk show loose talk, the portrayal of a stereotypical Bangladeshi cricketer as excessively dark and talkative individual was very popular. It’s clips are even today morphed on you tube.
3) many years ago a Pakistani had said on a talk show that sweets were distributed in Lahore when Bangladesh was separated .
why would Lahoris be happy on the Independence of Bangladesh.
“ye kale logs se Azadi. “
There may not have been an “emotional connect”. But the fact that part of the Islamic Republic seceded and that this was aided and abetted by a hostile state is a deep national trauma. This is partly what spurred Pakistan to develop nuclear weapons.
Imagine how Indians would feel if Pakistan had succeeded in taking all of Kashmir. Leave aside for a moment that Kashmir is a Disputed Territory while East Pakistan was unequivocally part of Pakistan.
When it comes to “emotional connect” Faiz Sahab wrote an entire poem called “Dhaka Say Wapsi Par” (On Return from Dhaka). This is usually known by its first line “Hum Kay Thehre Ajnabi”.
Next 15 years are going to be painful for Pakistanis because they will realize their new rival isn’t India but Bangladesh.
The self-avowed patriot indeed ‘dost protest too much’!. This is probably because its a reminder of how inextricably ‘Indian’ the roots of the Pakistani nation-state are. *shrug*.
The roots of the United States is British but they are VERY different countries. Destiny can turn us on winding roads.
oh agreed absolutely. I think a …’well-adjusted’ Pakistan post coming to terms with sorting out its identity issues is most likely to work out a lasting peace with India. Waiting for that day to come.
It will but many many years later and there will be a lot of pain along the way.
My theory is the Pakistani boomers in charge are unable to come to terms with the new reality when there is no more “parity” but are desperately seeking to “match” India.
When current GenZ Pakistanis come to power and India is even more stronger than now, a peace will come and on India’s terms – which isn’t even bad – LOC as international border and shutting down of terror camps etc. Maybe concessions on Sharda Peeth etc for which there can be a monetary exchange (like Alaska).
Britain is very aligned with the US though (including being called the 51st state) and there is considerable cross pollination in various mediums.
Bangladesh and Pakistan should look to become the 29th and 30th states in a similar manner. Win-win for all.
Bangladesh under Hasina was to an extent and after the “interim” government, Tarique Rehman seems eager to let the old ways return (except with the BNP in charge).
Have you seen how gen z Bangladeshis speak? If it were upto genz the country would be governed by the Jamat right now. And Pakistanis themselves no matter whst they say implicitly carry TNT within them.
I hope for gods sake we dont return to Hasina era relationship, all the blame of foreign interference without any of the actual influence. Better to spend our efforts in reaching out to all sections of bangladesh rather than only the ruling party.
Its default SOP for political opposition in ‘South Asia’ to criticize the government for ‘selling out to India’. The same characters start singing a different tune once in power.
Social media ‘narratives’ may be noisy but matter a lot less than that bottomline reality.
‘Indic world & Islamic world’
These are western conceptions, an attempt to understand the orient and them failing to do so in any meaningful way
The ‘Islamic world’ actually exists in theory because Islam requires unity of all Muslims, and there is awareness about this from Morocco to Bangladesh. But due to its vast geography, climates, races and cultures, this Islamic unity is just an idea at best. Regardless its a religious ideal to be strived for and there is awareness on it everywhere.
The ‘Indic world’ is even more weak of a concept, since this is a very modern invention (~100 years old) – an attempt first by anti colonial nationalists in British India to evoke some common feeling against Britian to revolt and overthrow them. It failed repeatedly, the current iteration of this Akhand Bharat concept is spearheaded by Hindutva.. There is so much mythology and bad history spread to justify this concept because it really does not exist in any meaningful way on the ground.
Pakistanis care about the Islamic world and want to lead it. Pakistanis do not care much about the Indic world if it even exists. The Hindu Muslim issues in Pakistan are non existent so do not play any role in domestic politics, which frees us to look elsewhere. The Hindu Muslim issue in India is alive and growing, so Pakistan is the favorite scapegoat.
“/Very true. The original sin committed by our founding fathers in not kicking out every single Muslim from this land so we wouldn’t also have to deal with Hindu-Muslim issues just like Pakistanis can afford the luxury of not having to deal with their minorities.”
You’re an extremist. I’m surprised nutjobs like you are allowed to post on here calling for the ethnic cleansing of Muslims from India.
I don’t necessarily espouse this view. I am just trying to show you the mirror.
Good spot – we can’t see all the comments so please do flag these up. This is reprehensible
@X.T.M: Complete violation of the precedent thread.
The “Indic world” precedes the “Islamic World” by a couple of thousands of years at least.
The Arabs were worshiping the goddesses from The Satanic Verses.
Indics are not Indo Aryan but ALL Indian from the Indus to Kanyakumari
Lol no, that’s Indian nationalist historical revisionism and that too mainly by people from the southern part of India. Indic has always meant Indo-Aryan, they are synonymous.
which violation sorry? hard to keep up with so many of you guys violating 🙂
India being a 5000+ year civilization.
Human civilization is over 300,000 years old. You’re not special.
Pakistan is only 78 years old though.
The Indian cricket team is older.
You’re the ordinary one lol.
@naam de guerre
They aren’t able to kick any Indian Muslims out even today, let alone in 1947 where they would have actually lost the entire country to Muslims, Sikhs, or both if they tried given the makeup of the army and law enforcement. Nehru was actually a visionary but he like many others overrated his countrymen.
The bitter truth is that the Indians never actually fought a war for independence, it was handed to them on a platter because the Germans wrecked the British and the Americans finished them off. Indians were in no position to kick anyone out in 1947.
This is why my view is that there is no such thing as an ‘Indic’ civlization because they were no pan Indian self conceptualization There were always different civilizations in this region. That truth was laid bare in 1857 when ‘Indians’ actually had to fight and soon found out that most other ‘Indians’ would rather fight for a small group of foriegners.
//The bitter truth is that the Indians never actually fought a war for independence, it was handed to them on a platter because the Germans wrecked the British and the Americans finished them off. Indians were in no position to kick anyone out in 1947//
The british were weakened after world war 1 as well, why did they not leave then.
You seem to be unaware thst the army, air force, bureaucracy and navy all.refused to cooperate with the British after world war 2 and supported the fight for independence. The whole reason these people turned against the biritsh in 1940z and not in the 1920s is because Gandhi.and many others turned independence into a mass movement, which rallied and created the national consciousness that still persists to this day.
Only those who celebrate Godse repeat tired narratives like the above. FYI.
The British were actually strengthened after WW1. They gained even more territory in the middle east (direct and indirect) and secured access to Iranian oil as well. In fact they felt stronger that they rescinded offers of self rule from Indians after promising them that when recruiting them. This led to the discontent against them post 1918 (Jallianwala Massacre, Khilafat and Non Cooperation movements, Socialist and trade union revolts, Simon commission etc) However none of these deterred the Brit since their control over India remained strong.
The only major mutiny was the Naval Unity of Feb 1946, rest of the incidents were very minor. Mutinies had happened before too such as the Singapore Mutiny in 1915. Overall the British retained good control, but their finances were destroyed, and they were under American debt. The Americans were forcing them to give up their colonies. The fact that dozens of countries gained independence from Britian right around that time should prove this point.
//The only major mutiny was the Naval Unity of Feb 1946, rest of the incidents were very minor. Mutinies had happened before too such as the Singapore Mutiny in 1915. Overall the British retained good control, but their finances were destroyed, and they were under American debt. The Americans were forcing them to give up their colonies. The fact that dozens of countries gained independence from Britian right around that time should prove this point.//
They could maintain control because s lot of Indians supported them. The Indian independence movement post 1920 when Gandhi got involved is why people who normally would have kept being part of the british bureaucracy openly rebelled. The mutiny did not come from a vacuum.
And the British if they had control over india could pay American debt many times over, they could not pay their debts because they could not keep control not the other way around.
+1
Gandhi was a truly a Saint; no bloodshed in Bengal because of him, imagine if we had two, there would have been no bloodshed in the Punjab.
nobody gave anything on a platter.
after 1856, the western /english educated Hindu elites fought the British in various ways and threw out the British, by a so called peaceful struggle .
Yes, there were a handful of Muslims in the freedom struggle, but it was a fight by the Hindus.
One of the effects of denial of this fact along with imposition of ‘secularism ‘ lead to congress’ decline.
Only a section of elite be they hindus or muslims fought the british. They were able to keep control solely because many elites actively collaborated with them.
It is also wrong to say thst people of other religions did not fight against the British, elites and educated people from all across the country did. And as the fervour for independence grew so did support from many other quarters.
The British put the entire Congress cabinet in jail and completely cracked down on them during entirety of World War 2. And there were no public mass protests against the British in reply to that, nor did the British Indian soldiers mutinied then. The INA’s role was overrated since they were also pretty ineffective.
So embellishing the freedom struggle is India’s prerogative but in reality we know they were handed independence as a result of the Brits going bankrupt.
It was Pakistan who got their moth eaten state due to British intervention.
A people who have been ruled their entire lives by foreigners whether Arab, Afghans, British, Mughals do not know the idea of being “independent”. Even the one native empire they had – the SIkh empire was a non Muslim one.
History existed way before 1857 or for that matter before Islam even existed.
Wow! Yet another extremist comment.
The Hindu Right is really on fire today.
//The ‘Indic world’ is even more weak of a concept, since this is a very modern invention (~100 years old) – an attempt first by anti colonial nationalists in British India to evoke some common feeling against Britian to revolt and overthrow them. It failed repeatedly, the current iteration of this Akhand Bharat concept is spearheaded by Hindutva.. There is so much mythology and bad history spread to justify this concept because it really does not exist in any meaningful way on the ground.//
Why does indic world need to be a united nation state? When we speak of the indic world we are talking about multiple cultures that share some fundamental ideas about the self( caste, karma for instance, with diversities among them navigated through a civic culture, that utilizes the similarities as a tool to communicate. Speaking only about dharmic religions it is the things described above, with Sanskrit and its derivative or influenced languages, pan Indian deities, and interdependencies creating a ground for cooperation.
This culture extends from India to the island of sumatra and java to even Japan and now I guess till Guyana in south america as well. It is not a colonial invention though certain reading of it that make statehood foundational are.
If you look to books before partition you would also see that you are part of this civilization.
//Pakistanis care about the Islamic world and want to lead it. Pakistanis do not care much about the Indic world if it even exists. The Hindu Muslim issues in Pakistan are non existent so do not play any role in domestic politics, which frees us to look elsewhere. The Hindu Muslim issue in India is alive and growing, so Pakistan is the favorite scapegoat.//
The whole reason Pakistan cares about the wider Islamic world and not thr Indian subcontinent is because of partition that turbo charged all revivalist strands in Indian muslim society. Your own ancestor’s, from Adina Beg to the afghans to even the kashmiri puniabis wanted to be dominant here, not towards the west and I hate to break it to you but only Iran can be the leaders of the Islamic world, maybe turkey if Iran does not want it, you would in all likelihood not even be muslim without persianization of Islam.
and you came to that conclusion through your own surveys..
This is a deeply ironic comment when Pakistan is making peace between the US and Iran.
Persian civilization is why Islam has the structure, institution, high culture that allowed it to befome hegemonic. If Iran had remained Zoroastrian it is unlikely islam would be as successful as it had been. The different Turkic tribes also became muslims because of the persian and carried thst perisiante high culture to Inda and further east.
Along with the above, Iran is the scientific leader of the muslim world, it is in its center geographically and is thr only countey that has actively stood upto the US when others have capitulated.
If Iran had better leadership, and did not spend so much time bringing up proxies it would be the defacto leader of the middle east. It is a pity thst the ayatollah cared more about whether women worse hijab than being able to trade their oil. But despite this, irans female literal in the high 80s, how can Pakistan even hope to lead the muslim world if something as basic as illiteracy still persists.
Pakistan is the second most populous Muslim-majority nation (after Indonesia). Within five years, we are projected to become the most populous Muslim-majority nation.
Pakistan is the only Muslim-majority nation that is a nuclear power.
So Pakistan is very important when it comes to the Muslim world.
//Pakistan is the only Muslim-majority nation that is a nuclear power.//
Iran no matter the outcome of this war will get nuclear weapons. So if that is all it takes, then my case is only strengthened.
And number is not something that makes one a leader.
The US will never allow Iran to develop nuclear weapons.
Being the second most (and soon to be most) populous Muslim majority nation matters. There are 250 million Pakistanis and only around 93 million Iranians.
Anyway, it’s not a competition between Pakistan and Iran. I’m not sure why you’ve set up the comparison this way.
Pakistan has quantity, not quality.
Arabs, Iranians and Turks have greater Islamic legacy and are way more educated/richer/advanced.
Pakistan is literally a Sub Saharan African tier country.
The biggest “empire” by native Pakistani Muslims is Maula Jutt’s village hence they have to kang on other Muslims – Turkish, Persian, Afghan, Indian.
Naah, the behaviour of the ummah is a good indicator.
Everyone knows how Pakistanis are treated in the Arab world.
And while Pakistanis keep screaming themselves hoarse about ummah issues like Palestine, Iran etc the ummah never reciprocate.
In 2019, Pakistanis screamed themselves hoarse about Kashmir.
Meanwhile the ummah –
The visa policy of ummah countries give a decent conclusion.
Note that Libya, after whose former leader Pakistan has named the most famous stadium of its topmost sport has banned Pakistan.
Like most indian astroturfers on the internet you’re so obsessed with Pakistan you keep tabs on every news about Pakistan, it’s genuinely so sad and pathetic.
The current Libyan regime were opposed to Gaddafi so your low IQ ramblings make no sense. Visa policies are dictated by geopolitics, they don’t define people-to-people sentiments. What I can tell you is that Indians are not viewed very postively at all in the rest of Muslim world and neither in the west either, that’s why millenial and Gen Z indians are so ashamed of being indian and crying about the racist abuse they get.
Again the Pakistani art of “deflection”.
Indians might not be “viewed very positively at all” but they are viewed MORE positively than Pakistanis, which is what you are.
The above map clearly shows what both the ummah and the west think about Pakistan.
No wonder Pakistanis in the west pretend to be Indians – which tbh is what they are, ethnically at least.
Hind means Sindh, the term “Indians” appropriated with “India”.
Hind means Sindh, the term “Indians” appropriated with “India”.
Kind of. Some Greek called the known part of India to Greeks. the Sindh as India. Then the Brits used that same same for all the Subcontinent
There never was a single entity in subcontinent till the Brits conquered and called it India
The problem about Pakistanis is that they think being a waiter at the table is same as having a seat at the table.
Pakistanis are very much the serf class of Muslims globally with Arabs, Iranians and Turks being the ruling class due to far greater Islamic legacy as well as having richer/educated countries in the modern era.
Pakistan is literally Sub-Saharan African tier and the biggest empire by Pakistani Muslims is Maula Jutt’s village.
Such a country is never going to “lead” the Islamic world.
There is a reason ummah countries have more liberal visa policies for “kuffars” than “Pakistanis”.
Bengal has also moved away from Pakistan in 1971 though if you know what I mean.
And Pakistanis are still crying over Kashmir, so no, they haven’t really moved on.
That was 55 years ago. Bengal swiftly moved on from Sheikh Mujeeb and now Haseena.
Most Pakistanis aren’t “crying” over Kashmir, I doubt the layperson even knows much about it. The people most concerned about Kashmir are Kashmiris themselves.
Yes, good for them. So has Pakistan. There is very little discourse on Bangladesh in Pakistan.
I see shrill commentators on X still crying about “betrayal” and “siding with Hindu kuffars” etc.
The meltdown below Tarique Rehman’s X post was a thing to behold.
That was more so in reaction to his post that mentioned Pakistan. If he didn’t mention us we wouldn’t have cared at all.
He’s free to dwell on the past if he wants and ignore the present danger of a larger neighbor that done far more damage to them over the past 50 years which culminated in the 2024 students revolution.
That revolution was a blip and the students didn’t even win the elections. Tarique did.
That larger neighbour has led to much prosperity for them over the years.
So much so that now they are richer than their former occupiers and field the better cricket team too.
And judging by the recent IMF forecasts, the gap is growing.
An example of how the larger neighbour helps them – They get surplus electricity which a certain loadshedding nation (multiple hours including the capital and largest cities) could also get if their leadership was not so myopic.
I didn’t see any meltdown, but defintely a few Pakistanis were disaapointed that Bangladesh will choose to be antagonistic with Pakistan still. Nobody however is fussed about it the next day, so clearly it wasn’t considered a big deal. Most Pakistanis know that Bangladesh is surrounded on 3 sides by India and therefore they have to deal with that reality. They chose that life, good luck to them but not our problem anymore.
Pakistan not only recognizes its own geography but leverages it perfectly.
No it doesn’t.
If it did it wouldn’t be as poor as it is with hours and hours of loadshedding.
“Recognizing its geography” doesn’t mean becoming a rentier state but leveraging its natural connections for trade, economic growth etc etc and in that regard, Pakistan only has one neighbour.
Vinisha Umashankar’s solar-powered ironing cart is a clean alternative to the charcoal powered street irons that press clothes for millions of Indians each day
“I’m honoured to be a Finalist for the first-ever Earthshot Prize for my innovation, the Solar Ironing Cart.
https://earthshotprize.org/winners-finalists/vinisha-umashankar/
https://cmpaul.wordpress.com/2008/11/10/mira-bhupathi%E2%80%99s-confession/?fbclid=IwAR2QYnKUoHlEhTq0qBO5ponxLA5Ptzcxuqjfbn5DHc0xD3zXv8eoK_XTT68
Sons and daughters of Abraham are in open war with native Dharmic peoples. Hopefully we give up our all paths lead to God kumbaya nonsense and start treating these people as what they are – existential threats.
Pakistan praised for securing Lebanese ceasefire
https://x.com/NicRobertsonCNN/status/2045073751470182539
Trump thanks Pakistan
https://x.com/clashreport/status/2045148981215232272
Pakistan’s astonishing role in the US-Iran peace process – former Indian high commissioner.
https://x.com/ttindia/status/2045019429730496794
Straits of harmouz has been opened, oil prices have dropped.
What did Iran gain apart from some brownie points? It has to build bridges with Arabs who are allied with Jews. Difficult.
Israel gets used to a daily war. Got some buffer in Lebanon.
America has shown that it is a mean power having guns and willing to shoot.
China, what to make out? It could have been the moderator.
Pakistan’s crowning glory will be trump’s visit.
India inspite of being in arab/jews camp, still has transactional relationship with Persians. Has more hold in UAE.
Iran has to rebuild. Probably Chinese and Russian have a role there.
One interesting thought coming from a Chinese think-tank :
In a ‘Taiwan situation ‘, Chinese energy lines will get blocked.
do you think US-Israel won this?
Sort of.
Iran lost its uranium. Being good traders they are better off not to get into trouble.
Interestingly the Arab street has not come out supporting Iran.
also interestingly the western street has not demonstrated against Israel, as compared to Gaza bombing.
It’s proxies have been subdued.
America has not been expelled from gulf.
Fight for autonomous Kurdistan will start now.
Iran lost its uranium. Being good traders they are better off not to get into trouble.
Really where did get that Iran lost its Uranium
Any side claiming they ‘won’ is spinning narratives.
Strait of Hormuz was open before the war and it’s only reopened till the ceasefire lasts.
This war was about regime change, which has failed. It has repalced old Khamenei with young Khamenei, and galvanized IRGC support for the next two decades.
Iran had already agreed to giving up its nuclear program in a deal before the war started (as per Oman)
We don’t have the final deal, but I am sure Iran will have its sanctions lifted if it is allowing a reopening of Hormuz, and I am also sure that US presence in GCC will now be rolled back.
Let’s wait to see the terms.
The goal of regime change was quitely dropped by the third day of war. Control of the region and safe guarding is allies was American aim and that happened in patches.
Straits of harmouz has been opened, oil prices have dropped.
What did Iran gain apart from some brownie points?
Iran’s oil sanctions have been removed.
So I guess the Iranians made the calculation that more income from Hormuz Open and Oil flowing as compared to Charging to use Hormuz
Hezbollah win over Israel in Southern Lebanon
Seeing this brought me such immense joy. This is a major victory for the people of the Jnoub, and moments like this will be etched in history
https://web.facebook.com/reel/1729775737987863
Fantastic Crusader History
Beaufort or Belfort Castle, known locally as Qal’at al-Shaqif (Arabic: قلعة الشقيف, romanized: Qalʿat al-Shaqīf)[1] or Shaqif Arnun (شقيف أرنون, Shaqīf Arnūn), is a Crusader fortress in Nabatieh Governorate, Southern Lebanon, about 1 kilometre (0.62 mi) to the south-south-east of the village of Arnoun. There was a fortification on the site before it was captured by Fulk, King of Jerusalem, in 1139 and construction of the Crusader castle probably began soon after. Saladin captured Beaufort in 1190, but 60 years later Crusaders re-took it. In 1268 Sultan Baibars finally captured the castle for the Islamic forces.
Beaufort provides one of the few cases in which a medieval castle proved of military value and utility in modern warfare as well, as shown by its late 20th-century history, especially during the 1982 Lebanon War.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort_Castle,_Lebanon