What We Did
Brown Pundits was founded as a diaspora project. A handful of Brown people thinking out loud about where they came from, what it meant, and whether the subcontinent could be understood in English without either romanticising it or apologising for it.
What happened instead was stranger and more valuable. The site became a place where the subcontinent argues with itself in public, without editorial supervision, without a line to hold, and without the particular kind of cowardice that afflicts publications which need to keep everybody happy.
Over the past week, we forced the archive into coherence. All 3,987 published posts; every Open thread, Genetics argument, Civilisational essay, Partition debate, BrownCast episode, Film review, Obituary, every Moderation notice, are now part of a single navigable structure. For the first time, the site can be read not as a sequence of posts, but as a narration.
What the Archive Revealed
The Partition of India is not a historical event on this site. It is a living emergency. Every argument we have had about Pakistan’s identity, India’s secularism, the Muslim League, Jinnah that is QeA, the two-nation theory, Bangladesh’s founding, the treatment of minorities across all three successor states; all of it is 1947 refusing to close. The wound keeps producing arguments because it was never properly treated. The British left. The questions they left behind did not. Brown Pundits has been, among other things, one of the few places in the English-speaking world where those questions are fought over by people who have actual stakes in the answers, not just professional opinions about them.
Pax Persica
The Persianate thread runs deeper than most readers know, including most of our own commenters. This site has been arguing, since nearly the beginning, about what it means that the Persianate world receded; for Urdu, for the Mughal inheritance, for Pakistan’s civilisational identity crisis, for the relationship between India and Iran that exists beneath and before the Islamic period.
That argument has become more urgent, not less, as Iran’s geopolitical position has transformed over the past year. The archive contains the prehistory of what you are watching on the news. It is one of the things that makes this site genuinely irreplaceable, and it is almost entirely unread.
Our Genetics Trove
The genetics archive is BP’s most singular contribution to the English-speaking world. Razib Khan built something here that does not exist anywhere else at this level of accessibility: a decade of South Asian population genetics; Aryan migration, caste endogamy, the Indus Valley, steppe ancestry, the Dravidian substrate, translated for a general reader and argued over in the comments by people who knew what they were talking about. The implications of that science for the stories South Asians tell about themselves are enormous and mostly unabsorbed. The archive is sitting there waiting.
The diaspora thread is messier, more personal, more argumentative, and more honest about what it actually feels like to be Brown in the West than almost anything published in mainstream media. It is not a coherent argument. It is a record of people working something out in real time, across a decade, with varying degrees of success. That is its value. The working-out is the content.
Controversy that is Caste
And then there is caste. The single most argued-about topic on this site, it turns out. More than Kashmir. More than Modi. More posts touching the caste system than any named historical figure or geopolitical crisis. This is because caste is not a topic. It is the grammar of South Asian social life, and no amount of political modernity has dissolved it. Every argument about representation, about genetics, about the diaspora, about Hindu nationalism, about Pakistan’s class structure; they all eventually arrive at caste. Brown Pundits has been arguing about this honestly, which means uncomfortably, which means productively.
What the archive proves, above all, is that the triad at the centre of this site, Indic civilisation, Islamic civilisation, Identity, is not a set of categories. It is an ongoing collision. The three have never resolved into synthesis. They keep producing new arguments in new forms because the underlying tensions have not been settled by history. They have only been deferred.
What Next
Roughly Eighty-two thousand comments. Eleven years. The tagging is only the beginning.
Over the coming weeks we will be building out thematic thread pages; curated reading paths through the archive on Partition, genetics, the Persianate world, caste, the diaspora, and Indo-Pak relations.
The goal is to make fifteen years of argument accessible to someone arriving here for the first time, without burying them in the post stream.
In the meantime: use the tags. Find a thread. Follow it backward. You will discover that someone was making your argument in 2016, that someone else demolished it in 2017, and that the demolition was itself demolished in 2019, and that all three positions are still alive in the comment section of a post from last month. This is not a publication. It is a record of an argument that refuses to end.
Indian military knew what Pakistan was up to.
in those days there was a,’peace constituency ‘ , also known as wagah border candle wallas(kuldeep SINGH etc) , who wanted peace any cost. There were elements in the establishment who were sympathetic to this idea (Mani Shankar iyer types)
There were some in Pakistan who nursed these people’s egos, by convincing that India needs to keep on talking to the good guys in Pakistan inspite of terrorism.
Vajapayee’s team also went with this charade. Even modi tried this in his first term.
Now there are no takers for this circus.
// Over the coming weeks we will be building out thematic thread pages; curated reading paths through the archive on Partition, genetics, the Persianate world, caste, the diaspora, and Indo-Pak relations. //
Waiting for them & best wishes.
1) People in Pakistan don’t really care about this now – not even those who actually migrated from India. Infact most of us don’t even care about 1971. So this obsession always seems very one sided. You can see this in Pakistani media & podcasters, nobody laments it.
2) The partition was of Punjab and Bengal.
Pakistani Punjab has largely moved on, and other ethnic groups and provinces never had any connection to any part of India in any meaningful way.
Agreed. Pakistanis are generally not emotional about Partition.
Indians see it as the “vivisection of Bharat Mata”. XTM has already written about how many Hindus consider India’s borders to be sacred.
As far as Pakistanis are concerned, British India’s borders were administratively determined by the Raj. A colony is not a nation-state. The Muslim-majority parts of the colony had the absolute right to opt out of a Hindu-majority nation-state.
I will disagree on “never had any connection to any part of India”– Delhi and Lucknow were great centers of Muslim culture. Hyderabad Deccan was a great center of Muslim culture.
I agree with XTM that Pakistan is part of what he calls “Indian civilization”. This is just historically true. My disagreement is with the notion that “India that is Bharat” should be a “civilization state”. This is not even the position of the Congress Party.
Key word: ‘Muslim culture’ which may give some connection to Indian Muslims today but not with India or Hinduism. Different language, different religions, different outlook to lives. Some similar cultural practises and usage simialr spice in food does not make a common civilization.
when you dance to the same music, eat the same food, curse the same, and celebrate seasons with essentially the same rituals, the ‘religion’ overhang that TNT-ers like to fixate on does not make a “different” civilization.
What a high signal comment! This perfectly encapsulates the subcon Muslim outlook – we share space with the non-Muslims but we have nothing to do with this land other than its language, culture, food and some local genes. Of course, how Muslims came to be magically airdropped here from Iran/Arabia is not to be queried.
Hard for non-Muslims then not to take this to its logical conclusion – Muslims are interloping colonisers who have nothing to do with this land and should not be given the same rights and privileges and should be treated the same as the Anglos that were kicked out.
It was/is very much Indian Muslim culture and developed with cross pollination with Hindus.
You can’t divorce either India or Hindu from Pakistani culture.
If it was just “Muslim culture” Pakistanis were after, they would be speaking Arabic and eating shawarma.
You can’t hide what you are, S Qumar.
And you can’t divorce Pakistan or Islam from Indian or Hindu culture tbh.
Never said you could. Especially North Indian culture.
I see Pakistanis as strayed Muslim Indians anyway (the Indic part of Pakistan that is).
Pakistanis may not care about it but a large part of their own history and culture, including why they want to see themselves as the edge of the Islamic world rather than the frontier of the indic world is a result of partition.
Even the whole reason your military has such an oversized role is down to partition.
Indians just seem to be more cognizant about partition because the communities displaced in 1947, 1971, 1991 and even today, have a huge space in the national imagination.
Muhajirs determine(d) the cultural life of Pakistan for decades.. they are very focussed on Partition
This is a view from 1960. We are now in the 3rd and 4th generation, most don’t care.. there are no discussions about partition or India in Muhajir drawing rooms, it’s as distant as the Anglo American is to Britian.
Are you a Muhajir?
Wouldn’t we expect muhajirs have the least partition trauma? (exclude the Iranics for now) They are the voluntary migrants, often from pedigreed families who were connected enough to be ensured respectable roles or business opportunities in the new country. Also,wasn’t there a fair bit of back and forth travel and family visits in the 50/60/70s? I know plenty of memons who move seemlessly between karachi, chennai and mumbai, and they are very pragmatic about national identity. Then the urdu guys with roots in UP or even deccan, seem very intellectually connected to Pakistan but also clued in to the reality of life in India as a muslim because they probably have some channel or another of communication, or they have diaspora family with Indian friends ect.
why trauma? initially they got an entire country to rule.
I had met many in gulf years back, yes some were nostalgic but had no trauma.
But almost all(urdu speakers) had a resentment that they were being marginalized.
An interesting thought I had.
When people get rich, their TFR lowers.
Punjabis and Pathans have vast hinterlands to replace their urban cohorts in Lahore/Peshawar.
Muhajirs in Karachi/Hyderabad don’t because their hinterland is in UP/Bihar/MP.
Thus their numbers are declining constantly without replenishment.
Hence it is inevitable that Karachi/Hyderabad become Sindhi again.
My father and his siblings used to go to Agra every year by train to see their maternal grandparents and relatives. My paternal grandfather was an official in the Pakistan Railways so this was possible. Obviously, this stopped after the 1965 War.
I wouldn’t minimize the trauma of people like my grandmother who suddenly found that her parents and one of her brothers were now living in a hostile state.
You can read Qurratulain Hyder on the experience of Partition for the UP Muslim.
Damn we cleared the spam but it seems a few comments went to Spam; we saw your name.
I think a reply to Qureshi also went to spam? Check?
My position has always been that Pakistan is very much a South Asian country. More than half our population is Punjabi. We are not different from Punjabis across the Radcliffe Line except that we are Muslim and they are Hindu or Sikh.
The military has an “oversized role” because they are seen as the defenders of the country from India which is regarded as an existential enemy. We have fought four wars with India. The Kashmir Dispute remains the unfinished business of Partition. This is the official Pakistani view.
Your “communities displaced” argument is factually wrong. As I said, more than 50% of Pakistanis are Punjabi. Punjab was divided and ethnically cleansed.
Perhaps the difference in attitudes towards Partition is explained by the fact that Indians see it as a “vivisection of Bharat Mata”– I believe this is what is officially taught in your schools– while Pakistanis see it as the birth of a new nation. For us, the borders of British India are seen as arbitrary and not sacred in any way.
To get a better sense of my viewpoint, you can read the following:
https://kabiraltaf.substack.com/p/a-tryst-with-destiny-reflections
For what it’s worth, Partition had a huge impact on my family. My paternal grandmother’s relatives left Agra for Karachi (one brother and her parents remained in Agra since we had a business there–which we still have). My grandmother married my grandfather (who was from Peshawar) and went with him first to East Pakistan and then to West Pakistan.
My maternal grandfather’s relatives fled Amritsar for Sialkot. My maternal grandmother was born and bred in West Punjab (what became Pakistan) so she was not personally impacted.
//Perhaps the difference in attitudes towards Partition is explained by the fact that Indians see it as a “vivisection of Bharat Mata”– I believe this is what is officially taught in your schools– while Pakistanis see it as the birth of a new nation. For us, the borders of British India are seen as arbitrary and not sacred in any way.//
Many Indians are quite clear about why partition is something to be taken seriously
The fear that this can happen to them as well. Which has only gotten worst with things like the Kashmiri Pandit exodus l, cross border terrorism, Bangladeshi Islamization leading to more hindu refugees. This fear is what drives concerns of growth of muslim and to a certain extent christian population in India.
Other than muhajirs, and some muslim punjavis Pakistan never went through this.
Are you Goan Christian by way of ethnic background?
My direct ancestors come from mangalore who ultimately are goan catholic converts.
oh very interesting.
You have the East Indian Catholics of Bombay, the very numerous Goans and then the Mangaloreans. such a fascinating history
Kerala catholics too who unlike the others weren’t Hindu originally but Syrian christians.
Current split is roughly 50-50.
My guide told me when I went to Kerala recently.
Will put up a post someday (currently in the northeast for which I will put up another post).
Indeed. The horrors of the Portuguese inquisition resulted in what are today’s Goan and Mangalorean Christians.
1) sometime back, Mario Miranda speaking to rajdeep had made a comment that they have started giving offerings to their ancestoral deities such as Shanta Durga etc.
Is it just an elite thing or is it more common among Catholics?
2)how deep is castesim in the goan catholic community?
3) one another thing is that many Catholics are having apparently Hindu first names like Naveen, Dileep, Rohan, etc. This is a development after the seventies I think or did it start earlier?
Yes, many old Saraswat Brahmin converts contributed to rebuilding all the older temples demolished during the Portuguese time.
The Vasai Catholics (not sure about the Goans) still follow Hindu customs and many indeed have Hindu first names.
//sometime back, Mario Miranda speaking to rajdeep had made a comment that they have started giving offerings to their ancestoral deities such as Shanta Durga etc.
Is it just an elite thing or is it more common among Catholics?//
It is an individual thing. There is no significant hatred or tendency to disavow hindu culture( there are even some attempts to use advaita vedanta to develop an indigenous theology, particularly the works of swami vivekanand) but actual worship is rare. Some individuals who are eclectic like her or people like Samantah Ruth Prabhu, may participate in individual worship but by and large the connection is cultural and philosophical amongst some quarters, but aside from some individual who may also associate with the sangh, worship is uncommon.
//2)how deep is castesim in the goan catholic community//
As deep as it is in other neighbouring communities. It is something that expresses itself in the form of negative stereotypes, certain people lacking refinements and thwre is some hesitation to marry people who come from dalit or tribal backgrounds. Plus even my own parents have spoken against reservation.
//one another thing is that many Catholics are having apparently Hindu first names like Naveen, Dileep, Rohan, etc. This is a development after the seventies I think or did it start earlier?//
I am not certain about this.
May I remind you that Punjab was ethnically cleansed? Your underplaying this is actually offensive to my maternal relatives who had to flee Amritsar.
Pakistan was itself “Partitioned” in 1971. This is a deep national trauma.
I apologise for any insults. It was unintended and am sorry your maternal relatives had to go through that.
As I had mentioned, the some punjabis are east punjabi muslims who I am aware had to leave their homes like Sindhi and west punjabi hindus and Sikhs. The me memory of partition will no doubt be present in their cultures even today
I will not be getting into your views on creation of bangladesh, however can we both agree that the experience of 1971 is different from that of 1947 for India, Pakistan and both Bangladeshi hindus and muslims, with Bangladeshi hindus getting the worst outcome of all?
Bihari Muslims got the worst outcome of all. Their killings by Awami League nationalists for not supporting the Indian backed seperation agenda, started Operation Searchlight. They were also the most genocided group in the entire war and remained in limbo for decades after due to their support for Pakistan. Their history is not forgotten
I accept your apology. The point was that Punjab and Bengal were the only provinces that were divided. Punjab was completely ethnically cleansed (on both sides).
My point with respect to 1971 was that East Pakistan was unequivocally Pakistani territory. India–a hostile state–intervened in what was essentially a civil war.
Pakistan lost part of its sovereign territory. India has not lost any territory since 1947.
This is a huge national trauma. We will never forgive or forget that India took Pakistani land.
//This is a huge national trauma. We will never forgive or forget that India took Pakistani land.//
But India did not take any pakistani land. Bangladesh is a sovereign country.
There would have been no Bangladesh had India not intervened.
Indira Gandhi was called “Durga” for breaking the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.
Anyway, Pakistan is now a nuclear power. India will never be able to break Pakistan again.
Actually India took a bit in Kashmir.
Some villages in Kargil were Pakistani pre-1971.
To be pedantic about it, Indian Punjab has muslim majority Malerkotla district and Haryana has Nuh/Mewat as muslim majority district. Google did not return any such district on the Pakistan side.
None of the districts of Pakistan Punjab were Hindu/Sikh majority according to the 1941 census while a couple of Muslim districts were given to India.
Exactly.
Pakistan should have been given Gurdaspur. But then India would have had no access to Kashmir.
Asides from Malerkotla (which was a Muslim princely state), Punjab was ethnically cleansed on both sides.
1) Did the west Punjabi really feel bad about loosing east Pakistan? Military defeat is one thing, but was there an emotional connect? Did the common Punjabi marry Bangla women and vice versa?
2) on the popular Pakistani talk show loose talk, the portrayal of a stereotypical Bangladeshi cricketer as excessively dark and talkative individual was very popular. It’s clips are even today morphed on you tube.
3) many years ago a Pakistani had said on a talk show that sweets were distributed in Lahore when Bangladesh was separated .
why would Lahoris be happy on the Independence of Bangladesh.
“ye kale logs se Azadi. “
There may not have been an “emotional connect”. But the fact that part of the Islamic Republic seceded and that this was aided and abetted by a hostile state is a deep national trauma. This is partly what spurred Pakistan to develop nuclear weapons.
Imagine how Indians would feel if Pakistan had succeeded in taking all of Kashmir. Leave aside for a moment that Kashmir is a Disputed Territory while East Pakistan was unequivocally part of Pakistan.
When it comes to “emotional connect” Faiz Sahab wrote an entire poem called “Dhaka Say Wapsi Par” (On Return from Dhaka). This is usually known by its first line “Hum Kay Thehre Ajnabi”.
Next 15 years are going to be painful for Pakistanis because they will realize their new rival isn’t India but Bangladesh.
The self-avowed patriot indeed ‘dost protest too much’!. This is probably because its a reminder of how inextricably ‘Indian’ the roots of the Pakistani nation-state are. *shrug*.
The roots of the United States is British but they are VERY different countries. Destiny can turn us on winding roads.
oh agreed absolutely. I think a …’well-adjusted’ Pakistan post coming to terms with sorting out its identity issues is most likely to work out a lasting peace with India. Waiting for that day to come.
It will but many many years later and there will be a lot of pain along the way.
My theory is the Pakistani boomers in charge are unable to come to terms with the new reality when there is no more “parity” but are desperately seeking to “match” India.
When current GenZ Pakistanis come to power and India is even more stronger than now, a peace will come and on India’s terms – which isn’t even bad – LOC as international border and shutting down of terror camps etc. Maybe concessions on Sharda Peeth etc for which there can be a monetary exchange (like Alaska).
Britain is very aligned with the US though (including being called the 51st state) and there is considerable cross pollination in various mediums.
Bangladesh and Pakistan should look to become the 29th and 30th states in a similar manner. Win-win for all.
Bangladesh under Hasina was to an extent and after the “interim” government, Tarique Rehman seems eager to let the old ways return (except with the BNP in charge).
Have you seen how gen z Bangladeshis speak? If it were upto genz the country would be governed by the Jamat right now. And Pakistanis themselves no matter whst they say implicitly carry TNT within them.
I hope for gods sake we dont return to Hasina era relationship, all the blame of foreign interference without any of the actual influence. Better to spend our efforts in reaching out to all sections of bangladesh rather than only the ruling party.
Its default SOP for political opposition in ‘South Asia’ to criticize the government for ‘selling out to India’. The same characters start singing a different tune once in power.
Social media ‘narratives’ may be noisy but matter a lot less than that bottomline reality.
‘Indic world & Islamic world’
These are western conceptions, an attempt to understand the orient and them failing to do so in any meaningful way
The ‘Islamic world’ actually exists in theory because Islam requires unity of all Muslims, and there is awareness about this from Morocco to Bangladesh. But due to its vast geography, climates, races and cultures, this Islamic unity is just an idea at best. Regardless its a religious ideal to be strived for and there is awareness on it everywhere.
The ‘Indic world’ is even more weak of a concept, since this is a very modern invention (~100 years old) – an attempt first by anti colonial nationalists in British India to evoke some common feeling against Britian to revolt and overthrow them. It failed repeatedly, the current iteration of this Akhand Bharat concept is spearheaded by Hindutva.. There is so much mythology and bad history spread to justify this concept because it really does not exist in any meaningful way on the ground.
Pakistanis care about the Islamic world and want to lead it. Pakistanis do not care much about the Indic world if it even exists. The Hindu Muslim issues in Pakistan are non existent so do not play any role in domestic politics, which frees us to look elsewhere. The Hindu Muslim issue in India is alive and growing, so Pakistan is the favorite scapegoat.
“/Very true. The original sin committed by our founding fathers in not kicking out every single Muslim from this land so we wouldn’t also have to deal with Hindu-Muslim issues just like Pakistanis can afford the luxury of not having to deal with their minorities.”
You’re an extremist. I’m surprised nutjobs like you are allowed to post on here calling for the ethnic cleansing of Muslims from India.
I don’t necessarily espouse this view. I am just trying to show you the mirror.
Good spot – we can’t see all the comments so please do flag these up. This is reprehensible
@X.T.M: Complete violation of the precedent thread.
The “Indic world” precedes the “Islamic World” by a couple of thousands of years at least.
The Arabs were worshiping the goddesses from The Satanic Verses.
Indics are not Indo Aryan but ALL Indian from the Indus to Kanyakumari
Lol no, that’s Indian nationalist historical revisionism and that too mainly by people from the southern part of India. Indic has always meant Indo-Aryan, they are synonymous.
which violation sorry? hard to keep up with so many of you guys violating 🙂
India being a 5000+ year civilization.
Human civilization is over 300,000 years old. You’re not special.
Pakistan is only 78 years old though.
The Indian cricket team is older.
You’re the ordinary one lol.
@naam de guerre
They aren’t able to kick any Indian Muslims out even today, let alone in 1947 where they would have actually lost the entire country to Muslims, Sikhs, or both if they tried given the makeup of the army and law enforcement. Nehru was actually a visionary but he like many others overrated his countrymen.
The bitter truth is that the Indians never actually fought a war for independence, it was handed to them on a platter because the Germans wrecked the British and the Americans finished them off. Indians were in no position to kick anyone out in 1947.
This is why my view is that there is no such thing as an ‘Indic’ civlization because they were no pan Indian self conceptualization There were always different civilizations in this region. That truth was laid bare in 1857 when ‘Indians’ actually had to fight and soon found out that most other ‘Indians’ would rather fight for a small group of foriegners.
//The bitter truth is that the Indians never actually fought a war for independence, it was handed to them on a platter because the Germans wrecked the British and the Americans finished them off. Indians were in no position to kick anyone out in 1947//
The british were weakened after world war 1 as well, why did they not leave then.
You seem to be unaware thst the army, air force, bureaucracy and navy all.refused to cooperate with the British after world war 2 and supported the fight for independence. The whole reason these people turned against the biritsh in 1940z and not in the 1920s is because Gandhi.and many others turned independence into a mass movement, which rallied and created the national consciousness that still persists to this day.
Only those who celebrate Godse repeat tired narratives like the above. FYI.
The British were actually strengthened after WW1. They gained even more territory in the middle east (direct and indirect) and secured access to Iranian oil as well. In fact they felt stronger that they rescinded offers of self rule from Indians after promising them that when recruiting them. This led to the discontent against them post 1918 (Jallianwala Massacre, Khilafat and Non Cooperation movements, Socialist and trade union revolts, Simon commission etc) However none of these deterred the Brit since their control over India remained strong.
The only major mutiny was the Naval Unity of Feb 1946, rest of the incidents were very minor. Mutinies had happened before too such as the Singapore Mutiny in 1915. Overall the British retained good control, but their finances were destroyed, and they were under American debt. The Americans were forcing them to give up their colonies. The fact that dozens of countries gained independence from Britian right around that time should prove this point.
//The only major mutiny was the Naval Unity of Feb 1946, rest of the incidents were very minor. Mutinies had happened before too such as the Singapore Mutiny in 1915. Overall the British retained good control, but their finances were destroyed, and they were under American debt. The Americans were forcing them to give up their colonies. The fact that dozens of countries gained independence from Britian right around that time should prove this point.//
They could maintain control because s lot of Indians supported them. The Indian independence movement post 1920 when Gandhi got involved is why people who normally would have kept being part of the british bureaucracy openly rebelled. The mutiny did not come from a vacuum.
And the British if they had control over india could pay American debt many times over, they could not pay their debts because they could not keep control not the other way around.
+1
Gandhi was a truly a Saint; no bloodshed in Bengal because of him, imagine if we had two, there would have been no bloodshed in the Punjab.
nobody gave anything on a platter.
after 1856, the western /english educated Hindu elites fought the British in various ways and threw out the British, by a so called peaceful struggle .
Yes, there were a handful of Muslims in the freedom struggle, but it was a fight by the Hindus.
One of the effects of denial of this fact along with imposition of ‘secularism ‘ lead to congress’ decline.
Only a section of elite be they hindus or muslims fought the british. They were able to keep control solely because many elites actively collaborated with them.
It is also wrong to say thst people of other religions did not fight against the British, elites and educated people from all across the country did. And as the fervour for independence grew so did support from many other quarters.
The British put the entire Congress cabinet in jail and completely cracked down on them during entirety of World War 2. And there were no public mass protests against the British in reply to that, nor did the British Indian soldiers mutinied then. The INA’s role was overrated since they were also pretty ineffective.
So embellishing the freedom struggle is India’s prerogative but in reality we know they were handed independence as a result of the Brits going bankrupt.
History existed way before 1857 or for that matter before Islam even existed.
Wow! Yet another extremist comment.
The Hindu Right is really on fire today.
//The ‘Indic world’ is even more weak of a concept, since this is a very modern invention (~100 years old) – an attempt first by anti colonial nationalists in British India to evoke some common feeling against Britian to revolt and overthrow them. It failed repeatedly, the current iteration of this Akhand Bharat concept is spearheaded by Hindutva.. There is so much mythology and bad history spread to justify this concept because it really does not exist in any meaningful way on the ground.//
Why does indic world need to be a united nation state? When we speak of the indic world we are talking about multiple cultures that share some fundamental ideas about the self( caste, karma for instance, with diversities among them navigated through a civic culture, that utilizes the similarities as a tool to communicate. Speaking only about dharmic religions it is the things described above, with Sanskrit and its derivative or influenced languages, pan Indian deities, and interdependencies creating a ground for cooperation.
This culture extends from India to the island of sumatra and java to even Japan and now I guess till Guyana in south america as well. It is not a colonial invention though certain reading of it that make statehood foundational are.
If you look to books before partition you would also see that you are part of this civilization.
//Pakistanis care about the Islamic world and want to lead it. Pakistanis do not care much about the Indic world if it even exists. The Hindu Muslim issues in Pakistan are non existent so do not play any role in domestic politics, which frees us to look elsewhere. The Hindu Muslim issue in India is alive and growing, so Pakistan is the favorite scapegoat.//
The whole reason Pakistan cares about the wider Islamic world and not thr Indian subcontinent is because of partition that turbo charged all revivalist strands in Indian muslim society. Your own ancestor’s, from Adina Beg to the afghans to even the kashmiri puniabis wanted to be dominant here, not towards the west and I hate to break it to you but only Iran can be the leaders of the Islamic world, maybe turkey if Iran does not want it, you would in all likelihood not even be muslim without persianization of Islam.
and you came to that conclusion through your own surveys..
This is a deeply ironic comment when Pakistan is making peace between the US and Iran.
Persian civilization is why Islam has the structure, institution, high culture that allowed it to befome hegemonic. If Iran had remained Zoroastrian it is unlikely islam would be as successful as it had been. The different Turkic tribes also became muslims because of the persian and carried thst perisiante high culture to Inda and further east.
Along with the above, Iran is the scientific leader of the muslim world, it is in its center geographically and is thr only countey that has actively stood upto the US when others have capitulated.
If Iran had better leadership, and did not spend so much time bringing up proxies it would be the defacto leader of the middle east. It is a pity thst the ayatollah cared more about whether women worse hijab than being able to trade their oil. But despite this, irans female literal in the high 80s, how can Pakistan even hope to lead the muslim world if something as basic as illiteracy still persists.
Pakistan is the second most populous Muslim-majority nation (after Indonesia). Within five years, we are projected to become the most populous Muslim-majority nation.
Pakistan is the only Muslim-majority nation that is a nuclear power.
So Pakistan is very important when it comes to the Muslim world.
//Pakistan is the only Muslim-majority nation that is a nuclear power.//
Iran no matter the outcome of this war will get nuclear weapons. So if that is all it takes, then my case is only strengthened.
And number is not something that makes one a leader.
The US will never allow Iran to develop nuclear weapons.
Being the second most (and soon to be most) populous Muslim majority nation matters. There are 250 million Pakistanis and only around 93 million Iranians.
Anyway, it’s not a competition between Pakistan and Iran. I’m not sure why you’ve set up the comparison this way.
//The US will never allow Iran to develop nuclear weapons//
The US never wanted North Korea to develop nuclear weapons either. But this war has shown it is existential for Iran to havr these weapons otherwise they will be victims of imperialism again.
I mainly pointed out to S. Qureshi that Iran has much more going for it than Pakistan if being a leader of the muslim world is concerned
yes absolutely
I mainly pointed out to S. Qureshi that Iran has much more going for it than Pakistan if being a leader of the muslim world is concerned…
It is essentially this idea in Islamic Iran’s head that has brought it into conflict.
1) Islam is a religion of the Arab Sunnis. It’s prophet is arab, it’s book, prayer, holy places are all in Arab land. Sunnis are 85% of Muslim population. Also Persians are not Arabs. As such shia Iran cannot be a sole leader of Islamic world.
2) other than being Sunni, Pakistan has less weightage.
To my knowledge the current shia demographics is a result of safavid state intervention,not a reflection of how Islamization proceeded in Iran.
Continuing this historical trend in its intervention is why Iran has been led to different misadventures.
//Islam is a religion of the Arab Sunnis. It’s prophet is arab, it’s book, prayer, holy places are all in Arab land. Sunnis are 85% of Muslim population. Also Persians are not Arabs. As such shia Iran cannot be a sole leader of Islamic world.//
Being a leader of Islamic or western or Indic world is matter of how much one can convince all the people in this bloc to accept your leadership, hegemony and trust.
The sectarian fights, are not a significant barrier to this unless Iran allows it to be, and if the matter is accepting your hegemony, Iran has the historical dominance amongst many of the converted population, that it has allowed to slip away in the last 100 years, it is a scientific powerhouse, it is centrally located and above all it is willing to fight when others bend. The Arabs have more or less made peace with being under western domination, and if they want to be a tourism Hotspot will have to undermine some of the very wahabbi influence that they encouraged in the last 50 years.
Iran, if it focuses on a socio-relihious muslim identity as a binding force and does not openly pick fights with the west o anyone else will naturally return to its position as the center.
I thought turkey was also a competitor but I did not know that the turks literally tried to drive away the kurds from islam, so that islam can be used a force to create Turkish solidarity. Cant do anything with this kind of thinking.
Iran as a nation projected power only during the times of Greek empire, where they were ruling up-to the Mediterranean.
I am sure that the Iranian people do not want this power projection. It is the Islamic regime that thinks that it can get Muslim world’s leadership.
Turkey is just show acting. It still has deals with Israel, not feared any more.
It is figuratively and physically stuck in the middle.
Iran as a nation was powerful even during the Sassianian and Parthian periods and is the major reason why Roman empire stopped at Anatolia.
And neither were the Safavids anything to scoff at either.
Whether any country actually wants to and eventually does take the leadership of islamic world, is a seperate question from whether one is capable of doing so. Among all the muslim countries, the one with the best shot is Iran. for reasons explained above.
neither the rulers nor citizens of Arab states view Iran as their leader. Although the regimes are autocratic ,still there is no demonstration against USA for attacking Iran.
At the deepest feeling for the Arabs, Iran is a captured territory for Islam.
Reciprocally, Iranians have contempt for Arabs.
Yes but Iran does not have nukes and while it does have a formidable missile force, it may still rank below Turkey and Pakistan militarily.
This is just completely incorrect.
Arab Sunnis were absolutely irrelevant beginning 751CE destruction of the Ummayads and have not been involved in either the spread of Islam or building its civilization. Since then, they have only come to light post WW1 after making a deal with the West in exchange of oil, and which made them prominent in the Muslim world.
I don’t think they have achieved anything even today. Building large strip malls and western style cities full of fast food joints and cafes is just considered Western vassalage by most Muslims, not Islamic civilization.
In order to be a leader in the Islamic world, they have to be self independent in defence and chart their own foreign policy. This has not happened yet, which is why they will not lead.
1) The biggest Arab conquest getting lands from Maghreb to Iran and Sindh, happened during the first century of Islam. This is still the position today.
2) they became inward looking after Mongols sacked their capitals.
3) modern turkey is a shadi ka godha. It can attack only Kurds etc.
What are you talking about? Iran has no navy, no air force, it will get absolutely pounded by Pakistan or Turkey. Pakistan can invade today and will make it to Kerman and Bandar Abbas, Americans can take much more but don’t see the point after their experience Afghanistan. Pakistan or Turkey today can fly over Tehran unchallenged, absolute air superiority.
Pakistan being leader of Islamic world, independent foreign policy and all, makes me laugh. Rest of your points are also deranged.
The central problem are the following:
1) Iran’s oil coming back online is bad for every oil producer, especially Saudi, USA, and Russia. It is good for China, Europe, India, and Japan. Arabs will not let Iranian oil flow, every decade Iran loses, Arabs pull ahead.
2) The Saudi (+GCC+Egypt) and Turkey are natural enemies. These two cannot coexist long-term in peace out of bad history and bad habits. Only one can dominate will survive.
3) Very minor : UAE has long funded Baloch insurgency to spoil Gwadar. Pakistan has now chosen their opposing side openly, What becomes of Pakistani expatriates in UAE? The loans are never coming back.
Despite having a $100 bn defense budget like Saudi Arabia, you all don’t clearly understand how to fight a war.
War is just politics by other means. You don’t even need a conventional army to fight a war like the Vietnamese and the Taliban proved.
It’s all about objectives and bleeing the other country dry.
There is absolutely no way Pakistan or Turkey despite sharing a land border will ever be able to decisively defeat Iran short of dropping nukes. You need a 5 million man army to successfully invade Iran and perhaps even more to hold it and incorporate it.
There is absolutely no will to invade and occupy Iran.
US cannot do it, Pakistan cannot do it, Turkey cannot do it. Israel cannot even succesfuly defeat Hamas or Hezbollah and that country has the most will to fight a war. Tactical successes, but collecting strategic losses.
What the US has done right now is basically hand Iran the control of Hormusz. 20% of world’s oil and gas, one third of the world’s fertilizer. A $1 toll on every barrell is going to net them $50billion a year in free cash.
Arabs are in no position to dictate anything, they can’t even stop US overfligths despite getting attacked (even European leaders conjured the spine to do that)
Also your analysis about Saudi & Turkey is just outdated and you clearly don’t understand the dynamics at play. The Saudi Turkey alliance is purely against Israel. They both have recognized that Israel wants to expand and will contain it.
UAE needs Pakistanis more than Pakistanis need them. UAE is facing an existential crisis on mutiple fronts. If the Iran war carries through, UAE will be facing regime change or will wither off. Nobody is investing there or moving there with Shahed drones in the sky and Hormuz blocked.
Saudi will eventually make a play for a regime change in UAE or an outright invasion once the Americans lose and go back.
Not only that the populations are very sympathetic to Iran ..
Every single point you make is wrong.
I don’t know about Vietnam. Taliban did not win, Americans got bored of mauling and civilizing them and just left. If Pakistan and Tajikistan decide to end Afghanistan, they can bomb Salang and cause a breakup on ethnic lines. People try to take Afghanistan whole, the trick is to break them into many smaller parts.
“There is absolutely no will to invade and occupy Iran.”
This I agree with, because stealing land permanently is out of fashion in the West unless you are Russia. The incentives are not there.
America can absolutely invade and plant their flag, they are not doing it because they know it ends in boredom then shame. You think Pakistan and Turkey can’t, fine by me. 5 million army, what year is this? 1938?
“Tactical successes, but collecting strategic losses.”
This is ‘khisiyani billi’ cope. Pakistanis can’t stomach and respectfully acknowledge one sided hammering Israel is delivering.
What the US has done … $50billion a year in free cash.
US has done no such thing and Iran is violating an old and established international law. People are figuring out how long this will go on before they can start looting Iranian crude ships with force, seizing Iranian accounts and assets. What if India positions ships to collect tolls from Iranian ships? at Hormuz or at Malacca? what then? How about no overflights over GCC? What if Israel starts collecting tolls at Suez? What if UAE starts collecting a toll? Iran lobbing a dozen missiles at clueless tankers is desperation.
“Israel wants to expand”
This is my time wasting propaganda. Hamas provoked them, and paid. My analysis on Saudi and Turkey is spot on. Only one will survive long term. Saudi is made up country, Turkey will probably win. Arabs are a very wise people, they have surprised every one in the past, so who knows? it might go the other way.
“UAE needs Pakistanis more than Pakistanis need them.”
Ahh right! This is again wasting time. I can only laugh, you do you, stay happy, Emiratis will beg in Lahore soon.
“Saudi will eventually make a play for a regime change in UAE or an outright invasion”
After what UAE has done in Sudan, I don’t think highly of them. There is room to maneuver for regime change though. They are the most competent people in the middle east, so who knows?
Which territory can the Western powers actually hold in the Age of States & Nations?
Greenland comes to mind.
American and European people are nice compared to Chinese or Russians. Europeans have won the world many times over and have WW trauma. Plus they are consolidating, and enjoying their spoils from the preceding centuries.
China and Russia two would have taken the Iranian islands by now, never to be returned, with fake history, boots, poker face and all. Xinjiang means ‘new frontier’, Chinese ‘liquidated’ 80% of Dzungar race and populated it with Uyghurs and now Hans.
That was during the Qing dynasty right?
Taliban won, this is not disputed. They were dislodged from power, but took back power without ever surrendering. This is a textbook win.
You can question ”at what cost” but you cannot question the result.
This is like saying ‘America can nuke the entire world, but they are not doing it because it would destroy the planet including themselves. Well duh!
The US can do a lot of things. But completing a mission successfully is not winning a war.
USA and Israel have achieved absolutely zero strategic objectives, infact their score is in the negative because the war has allowed Iran to seize control of Hormuz which was open before the war. If the US leaves now without a deal, this would be their worst defeat since the war of 1812 because they would have ended up creating a new global power. They know it which is why Trump is itching for a deal. He may not get it.
Erm, did you miss the part where unprovoked war of aggression against Iran, not sanctioned by the UN and not supported by any US ally was against international law? What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Hormuz is not international water it’s territorial waters of Iran and Oman, and Iran never ratified the UNCLOS treaty which allows right of way, and neither did the US. So let’s not even make this argument.
The Israelis literally say this out loud – again, and again, and again, anyone denying it either does not know what they are talking about or is deliberately obfuscating.
“Taliban won, this is not disputed.”
America got bored and left. There was nothing of value in Afghanistan. There is no more Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. Taliban have shown no interest in doing a 9-11 or aiding Osama. America overstayed their welcome for sure, but it is not a defeat of American army.
“The US can do a lot of things. But completing a mission successfully is not winning a war.”
They are actively trying to steal Iranian nuclear material. The C-130s destroyed on ground is no pilot rescue. If Iran can’t make the bomb, it will be a win for America. If Iran makes a ‘viable’ bomb in next 25 years, America would have lost.
The immediate consequence of this bomb will be nuclear armament of Saudia, Turkey, and possibly UAE. The medium term consequence will be nuclear war in middle east.
“USA and Israel have achieved absolutely zero strategic objectives”
Iran has no air force, no navy, no submarines, and the structure will take decades to recover, if ever. The mountain fortresses are rubble, if this goes on Ishafan nuclear plant will be blown to bits too. This is just conspiracy cope.
“did you miss the part where unprovoked war of aggression against Iran”
There is an Iranian navy ship overstaying its welcome in India. Iranians can shoot at our merchant ship and watch their ship sink as we ask it to leave our waters. What is good for goose is indeed good for gander. They are welcome to disrupt American and allied shipping, none of our business. My only concern is safety and wellbeing of Indian citizens. If India had any self respect it would go to war to protect it’s shipping.
“The Israelis literally say this out loud – again, and again, and again”
I did not know this. Will read more about how much of it is posturing, how much is planning, and where are they expanding.
Iranians said a lot of things aloud, again, and again too. Now Khamenei is 10 feet under, Assad is hiding in Moscow, Hamas can no longer use their ‘pagers’. Israel can actually pull off their threats, and shouldn’t be taken lightly.
“If India had any self-respect it would go to war to protect its shipping”– This is a very bizarre statement. Don’t forget that India essentially has taken the Israeli side in this war. Your PM made a visit to Israel just before the war started.
If I were in charge of Iran, India would be included among the enemies list.
Your comments repeatedly celebrate the assassination of the previous Supreme Leader and seemingly gloat about the assassination of the new Supreme Leader.
This is not a good look.
Remember Imran was in Moscow when Ukraine started …
If you were in charge in Iran, and where else do you want too be a leader of Afghanistan?… do you know what they do to LGBTQ people in Iran?
I have worked with and talked to more Iranians than most. I have opinions, not particularly strong ones but I have some. The mullahs don’t let women folk breathe, morality police patrols in universities and humiliates them, the men are asked to pay money to avoid military service which often sees poor boys end up in Syria, or Lebabon. If you want a passport to leave, you pay them large sums of money, many even pay bribes to come back to the west after visiting Iran.This is not rule of the people. For all the talk of high human development, mutah is openly a thing, so is organ trade. Khomeini was a french agent gone rogue, a suspected pedophile too. This is not a normal healthy society, nor one heading in the right direction.
I support continued existence and strengthening of Iranian theocracy purely as leverage in middle east, so that the region never fully stabilizes. Pakistan is doing the same. I just want people who attack Indian shipping punished, whats the point of Indian naval buildup if they can’t even protect our merchant ships.
Iran would have done the same to Netanyahu. Intent vs capability.
Was Khoemeini a French agent.
We agree with you on the Iranian regime being despicable.
My very limited point was that India chose a side–Israel and the US.
Iran would be well justified to see them as an enemy.
Don’t tell me what “they do to LGBTQ people in Iran”– It’s not relevant to this conversation at all.
You’re not arguing in good faith so I’m going to leave it here.
Also if I were in-charge of Iran, I would see Pakistan is treaty bound to fight for Saudi, a country that I am currently lobbing missiles at. I will also remember just last year I exchanged drone attacks with Pakistan across the border.
Pakistan is using diplomacy very well and not upsetting either side.
The Field Marshal just spent three days in Iran.
Where is Indian diplomacy?
+1
You should explore Authorship.
Pakistan will never invade- it is impossible. The Pakistani people would revolt
Intent vs capability.
Winning and losing are all relative to expectations. The case for saying the US lost has nothing to do with whether it can have a 100 to 1 kill ratio, its based on low sustainability of the engagement. The world percieves that even the mightiest military has hard limits on its ability to coerce a regional power with no airforce and navy, short of nukes. This also means that the calculus of every regional balance-of-power has changed because we now know the limits of US projection in multiple theaters simultaneously. The Iranians “won” by revealing a new deterrence playbook and having the grit to not fold and expose these limitations, not because they defeated the US in an combat sense. In the case of Op Sindhoor, I actually think the Indians achieved their objective of escalating beyond existing red lines. The idea is to “normalise” aerial operations further into pak territory each time. Pak successfully spun the premise into the notion that India was trying to achieve something more decisive and they repelled that.
+1
because we now know the limits of US projection
The US has not won any wars against pip squeak countries since the Vietnam War
The issue is that
a) US does not want to lose lives
b) Not take economic hits (stock market gas prices)
c) Wars of choice.Not in defense of home, so much of the public not really in favor of war.
In contrast Iran had been preparing for over a decade and had thought out their strategy
eg Use missiles not air power
Agreed, these are the main drivers, on which I’d also add that the MIC creates perverse incentives to configure the military for edge case war b scenarios
” its based on low sustainability of the engagement”
US can keep pounding Iran 100 to 1 for months if it diverts it’s European or Pacific stores. It just can’t decide if invasion is worth the cost. Everyone enjoys the spoils and blames the Americans, remember Kuwait?
“The world percieves that even the mightiest military has hard limits on its ability to coerce a regional power”
No it does not, no one should volunteer to do stupid self harm that Iran continues to do. Iran will come out far weaker than it started and Arabs will take their pound of meat.
“The Iranians “won” by revealing a new deterrence playbook and having the grit to not fold and expose these limitations”
Iran has not won anything. It’s mad leader is dead and the next one will die if and when Americans decide. What is the deterrence here? firing at unarmed oilers? this is like saying Iran can deter the world by shooting at civilian airlines. Wait till people start seizing Iranian ships and stealing their crude. No one is deterred, just figuring out how to pay back Iran in kind. By shifting goalposts like this, we can say Israel won 10X by exposing Iran’s limitations and destroying all Iranian proxies, even bringing about regime change in Syria.
Missiles are a very expensive way to lob 500-1000 lb warheads. The math just doesn’t work out. They are not uniquely destructive wunderwaffe.
If Iran regime collapses, then what? why would Americans have any role there, Iraq is no more, Syria is no more. If everyone is on the same side then why do they need weapon sales? If Iranian oil comes back online its bad news for USA, Russia, and Saudi. India, China, Europe, even Pakistan, Indonesia get leverage in the Middle east if the region festers.
They are unable to establish air supremacy like they did over Iraq and Afghanistan, and have to resort to stand off munitions. They have used 1200 tomahawks since the war begin. Their global supply of tomahawks is 3500. Interceptors are also depleted. Neither of these are going to be replenished within the next 10 years at the current pace. So they are already depleted without achieveing zero war objectives.
I don’t think they can continue this for more than 2 months max. This is why they need a deal, or they go for a ground invasion in the next couple of weeks. If Iran holds, US will lose.
They are flying drones low and slow, that is how much air superiority they have. Even Iraq was able to make kills, whats the obsession with one or two aircraft downed? F15s are roaming around unchallenged making 3-400 sorties over Iran every day. There maybe some standoff usage but almost all videos show normal JDAMs pounding Iranian positions.
One F-15 confirmed kill, one F-35 damaged, one A-10 museum piece downed, and a rescue helicopter damaged. On drones multiple MQ-9s and surprisingly a MQ-4C triton has been downed, although latter seems like a technical fault. F-15s are being sent into harms way as bomb trucks. Each carrying monstrous, almost 30,000 lb, payload.
The tomahawk and alike claims like China getting ahead in this or that technology is BS American MIC makes to extract more money.
(a) Americans don’t fight like Indians. B rate air forces like IAF rely on standoff air launched missiles like Brahmos or Scalp at air forces with almost no air cover. Americans choose to destroy the air cover and then go 100X cheaper with guided bombs and go closer to harm. There is no shortage of JDAMS or Paveways in American inventory.
(b) In the approximately $100-200,000 range Americans are moving at breakneck speed. There are: Rapidly Adaptable Affordable Cruise Missile (RAACM) and FAMM programs that already have production prototypes.
There are in production Lockheed martin CMMT, Anduril Barracuda, L3 Harris Wolfpack, Zone 5 Rusty dagger, also there is Leidos Black arrow on the smaller side. I remember they are sending a 1000 each of rusty daggers and barracudas to Ukraine each year.
Plus there are the traditional big boys JSOW, JASSM and its ilk, and many upcoming big ones. America is leading the field by a wide margin in cheap cruise missiles.
America has no shortage of missiles, just corporate greed that money can solve. Air defence is a different matter as THAAD as well as Patriot are single vendor situations with no room to push. It is more bureaucracy than technological limitations. Random Indian companies out of Pune and Nagpur make rockets work. This is not a real problem just American MIC greed.
Yeah that’s to avoid radar detection – prceisely because they don’t have air supremacy or even superiority. They already lost 24 MQ Reaper drones, and they lost 10 aircrafts in total in those 2 days ‘trying to save the pilot / extracting uranium’ (look up the breakdown)
More than 90% of the 10,000 sorties aren’t really over Iran, maybe near the coastlines but not inland.
If there was no risk of overflying Iran, we would be seeing B52s, B1s and B2s over Iran. But they dare not risk them. So it’s all standoff munitions for now.
Sir Indians are fighting against a superior airforce than them, the US is fighting against no airforce, just airdefence. This is literally a worse performance than the IAF. But they got the dough to burn, so here we are.
Rest of the post sounds like a American MIC brochure, so I cannot even reply, but the Americans have achieved absolutely zero strategic objectives after depleting their entire interceptor and stand off munitions arsenal stationed in the GCC.
When they start achieving any objectives, then perhaps we can talk about how great they are
“Sir Indians are fighting against a superior airforce than them”
Ah! right! So superior indeed.
“absolutely zero strategic objectives”
What strategic objective remains? Power plants?
I have plans for Sunday. You do you!
On Operation Sindoor, I think India has learnt.
LoL what? India learned this game can be played.
Last time attacking Kolkata led to Bangladesh, this time it will lead to Balochistan. I heard Khwaja Asif licks Asim’s boot after Asim has used them on the real PM Imran Khan.
And while Khwaja Asif can make empty threats, Taliban has already upped attacks on Pakistan.
@XTM:
This is an anti Pakistan comment.
@Kishore Kumar:
I hope that there isn’t a repeat of Sindoor. Please remember Pakistan is a nuclear power. Our national security is paramount.
That makes no sense- Bangladesh was surrounded by India on three sides. Balochistan has no border with India whatsoever.
There is a Precedent thread on how Baluchistan is not Kashmir. Please read that.
Remember India was a nuclear power too when Pakistan invaded in 1999. Our national security took the L, we won’t treat you differently.
“That makes no sense- Bangladesh was surrounded by India on three sides. Balochistan has no border with India whatsoever.”
Technology has moved on now. And a country that got it’s capital and primary air bases smacked, could not attack even bordering Amritsar properly is threatening to attack Kolkata. That makes a lot of sense.
Balochistan is not Kashmir also in that there has never been an insurgent takeover of multiple towns in Kashmir on the same day. Kabir had no reason to bring up Kolkata, yet he did it and here we are.
@X.T.M: Not a high signal comment at all. Nuclear sabre rattling by an author is not a good look.
And just to clarify things, Pakistan can “target” where it wants – just that the missiles will not reach there.
India has some of the most advanced air defenses in the world in the S-400 and India has ordered more regiments as well is close to finishing off its indigenous Kusha.
Pakistani missiles barely penetrated the border states before being intercepted. Bengal is far far away.
Of course, the reverse is not true.
This is corroborated by satellite imagery and international media.
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https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/05/14/world/asia/india-pakistan-attack-damage-satellite-images.html
Stop the endless litigation.
Once again, if your country doesn’t cross into Pakistani airspace, nothing will happen to you.
But make one wrong move and Pak Fauj is not going to play around. Nor should we.
I don’t condone terrorism.
But we have seen no actual evidence that Pakistan was involved in Pahalgam.
“Nothing did happen lol”– You were forced into a ceasefire in four days. President Trump constantly mentions how much he loves the Field Marshal.
India is in a weaker position than it was this time last year.
I’m really not interested in constantly re-litigating this.
BB you know you are not meant to reply to Kabir
Yes, the Overton window has been shifting vis a vis Pakistan every conflict.
I think Pakistan got too comfortable with the idea that they could keep fighting India using “their rules” ie use of proxies to avoid a direct conflict.
But the biggest win of this conflict was something that has completely escaped everyone’s attention – the IWT abeyance and India has accelerated dams/waterworks etc.
Of course there is going to be no re-routing of rivers as claimed by parties on both sides but the Pakistanis would often waste time on new Indian projects which after going through the mediation process would be found to be okay anyways. All the Pakistanis did was stall projects.
Now that the bottleneck is done away with, India can accelerate its projects (to provide energy and navigation to its citizens not to “stop Pakistan’s water” as claimed by loonies on both sides).
Another interesting thing about Sindoor that people don’t realize is that India shifted the Overton window further than it was expecting to.
2016 – crossed over the LOC for reprisal attacks against terror groups
2019 – attacks in terror groups in Pakistan “proper”
Sindoor’s primary objective was similar to 2019 but multiple attacks. Targets were still only terror groups and not Pakistani military personnel.
That’s why on the 7th no SEAD/DEAD was done and while India hit all the, targets they lost jets.
India was happy to disengage and call it off then as Misri mentioned many times in his presser. Pakistan had already declared “5 Rafales” down so could have taken the off-ramp.
Instead they doubled down over the next few days attacking with drones and missiles and then they sent a missile towards Delhi which was intercepted at Sirsa.
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/india/how-india-intercepted-delhi-bound-fatah-ii-missile-fired-from-pakistan-over-sirsa-13020117.html
That is when India escalated to a level they had not planned on.
10th SEAD/DEAD was done and India started hitting Pakistani military targets and PAF lost personnel as well.
Even here India exercised a bit of restraint by hitting things like the intersection of runways etc to show how precise their missiles were.
Of course, unlike the 7th Pakistan could not retaliate as India had prepared for an actual conflict this time with SEAD/DEAD hence neither were jets lost nor could Pakistanis hit anything with missiles.
This is corroborated by multiple international media outlets/satellite data. While Pakistan did down Indian jets – even if not the number/nature they claim, Operation Bunyan-ul-Mursoos on the 10th was a complete flop.
Funny thing is if they had disengaged on the 7th when they had downed the jets they could still have declared victory without the losses they took on the 10th.
Instead, their adventurism meant the thing they had been avoiding since 1971 by using proxies came true – a direct military conflict.
The gold standard of edging the overton window of acceptable kinetic engagement are the Obama drone campaigns in KPK. It’s unlikely to be achieved by India as it takes a more stoic public temperment to escalate without all the media debate and analysis.
very good comment – very high value
IWT has not been suspended and that would be an Act of War.
I have some experience in this. in all probability India was letting go more water than what it had to under the agreement. This will reduce to Great extent.
Once India’s portion gets used, it will not be possible to revert back.
Regulation of flow will be in Indian hands.
As we have seen in this war; economy doesn’t really translate to influence.
The US did not win; it’s just optics now.
US not winning does not mean Iran did not lose.
Iran launched 1300 missiles in total, each carrying maybe a 500-1000 lbs warhead, closer to 500. Large majority intercepted.
Israel and US launched 12,000 sorties, each carrying 20,000 lb munition. ~2-3 intercepted.
Thats a 200X-400X difference in damage, much more concentrated too.
Iranians drones are over hyped, copied from German designs from the 80s, they have their uses, but with a 50lb warhead and 100 MPH speed, not a lot of targets are viable. More of propaganda than military effectiveness.
All this is when Arabs have not entered the fray. Pakistan is Saudi proxy toying with Iran.
I read it a bit differently. Iran plays it like a high human development society, also one whose real GDP is much higher than the current depressed figure. High human development + mandatory military service, and perhaps higher personal agency than your average south asian or arab male, would make me see their long term ability to be effective in field operations as high. For the same reasons, Turkey is probably way more formidable than any of the Arab states. But yes, there may be diminishing returns on GDP beyond a level, especially if that’s coming from resource extraction, as it’s not a proxy for social discipline.
I read it a bit differently. Iran plays it like a high human development society, also one whose real GDP is much higher than the current depressed figure.
Love it
Iran has a high GDP. Look at PPP numbers not nominal.
They are very much a “2nd world ” country.
Yes, they are nominally at ~5000 now but they had hit ~8000 back in 2012. What many don’t remember is that the early revolutionary period had robust growth during the iran-iraq war and in 1986, iran had gdp per capita >4000, neary 3x of Turkey, and a bit higher than yugoslavia and Portugal, and on the heels of a country like greece. Unlike other rich petro states , they are the sorts that recycle the wealth into human development. Had they not been a pariah state all these years, I don’t see why they wouldn’t be in the 20k range nominal right now.
Hind means Sindh, the term “Indians” appropriated with “India”.
Hind means Sindh, the term “Indians” appropriated with “India”.
Kind of. Some Greek called the known part of India to Greeks. the Sindh as India. Then the Brits used that same same for all the Subcontinent
There never was a single entity in subcontinent till the Brits conquered and called it India
True. That’s the unfortunate point many in modern India do not understand.
The term India was used by Greeks for Greeks.
It was the English whose use of the word India gave it wider usage.
For 2,000+ years the name of the Sub Continent was Dambadiva and used in Buddhist texts
The original term is actually Jambudvipa which comes from Vedic Sanskrit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jambudv%C4%ABpa
Jambudvipa is Sanskrit
Dambadiva is Pali
Both refer to Jambul Tree= Damba=
Syzygium cumini
It is an extremely hard wood and used in ship building. So I guess it was quite common in Eastern India (Kalinga) which was the center of maritime trade in the past.
I have 5 trees in my garden, about 7 year old and planted by me.The fruit is a favorite of Bears
Bengal has also moved away from Pakistan in 1971 though if you know what I mean.
And Pakistanis are still crying over Kashmir, so no, they haven’t really moved on.
That was 55 years ago. Bengal swiftly moved on from Sheikh Mujeeb and now Haseena.
Most Pakistanis aren’t “crying” over Kashmir, I doubt the layperson even knows much about it. The people most concerned about Kashmir are Kashmiris themselves.
Yes, good for them. So has Pakistan. There is very little discourse on Bangladesh in Pakistan.
I see shrill commentators on X still crying about “betrayal” and “siding with Hindu kuffars” etc.
The meltdown below Tarique Rehman’s X post was a thing to behold.
That was more so in reaction to his post that mentioned Pakistan. If he didn’t mention us we wouldn’t have cared at all.
He’s free to dwell on the past if he wants and ignore the present danger of a larger neighbor that done far more damage to them over the past 50 years which culminated in the 2024 students revolution.
That revolution was a blip and the students didn’t even win the elections. Tarique did.
That larger neighbour has led to much prosperity for them over the years.
So much so that now they are richer than their former occupiers and field the better cricket team too.
And judging by the recent IMF forecasts, the gap is growing.
An example of how the larger neighbour helps them – They get surplus electricity which a certain loadshedding nation (multiple hours including the capital and largest cities) could also get if their leadership was not so myopic.
I didn’t see any meltdown, but defintely a few Pakistanis were disaapointed that Bangladesh will choose to be antagonistic with Pakistan still. Nobody however is fussed about it the next day, so clearly it wasn’t considered a big deal. Most Pakistanis know that Bangladesh is surrounded on 3 sides by India and therefore they have to deal with that reality. They chose that life, good luck to them but not our problem anymore.
Pakistan not only recognizes its own geography but leverages it perfectly.
No it doesn’t.
If it did it wouldn’t be as poor as it is with hours and hours of loadshedding.
“Recognizing its geography” doesn’t mean becoming a rentier state but leveraging its natural connections for trade, economic growth etc etc and in that regard, Pakistan only has one neighbour.
Vinisha Umashankar’s solar-powered ironing cart is a clean alternative to the charcoal powered street irons that press clothes for millions of Indians each day
“I’m honoured to be a Finalist for the first-ever Earthshot Prize for my innovation, the Solar Ironing Cart.
https://earthshotprize.org/winners-finalists/vinisha-umashankar/
https://cmpaul.wordpress.com/2008/11/10/mira-bhupathi%E2%80%99s-confession/?fbclid=IwAR2QYnKUoHlEhTq0qBO5ponxLA5Ptzcxuqjfbn5DHc0xD3zXv8eoK_XTT68
Sons and daughters of Abraham are in open war with native Dharmic peoples. Hopefully we give up our all paths lead to God kumbaya nonsense and start treating these people as what they are – existential threats.
Pakistan praised for securing Lebanese ceasefire
https://x.com/NicRobertsonCNN/status/2045073751470182539
Trump thanks Pakistan
https://x.com/clashreport/status/2045148981215232272
Pakistan’s astonishing role in the US-Iran peace process – former Indian high commissioner.
https://x.com/ttindia/status/2045019429730496794
Straits of harmouz has been opened, oil prices have dropped.
What did Iran gain apart from some brownie points? It has to build bridges with Arabs who are allied with Jews. Difficult.
Israel gets used to a daily war. Got some buffer in Lebanon.
America has shown that it is a mean power having guns and willing to shoot.
China, what to make out? It could have been the moderator.
Pakistan’s crowning glory will be trump’s visit.
India inspite of being in arab/jews camp, still has transactional relationship with Persians. Has more hold in UAE.
Iran has to rebuild. Probably Chinese and Russian have a role there.
One interesting thought coming from a Chinese think-tank :
In a ‘Taiwan situation ‘, Chinese energy lines will get blocked.
do you think US-Israel won this?
Sort of.
Iran lost its uranium. Being good traders they are better off not to get into trouble.
Interestingly the Arab street has not come out supporting Iran.
also interestingly the western street has not demonstrated against Israel, as compared to Gaza bombing.
It’s proxies have been subdued.
America has not been expelled from gulf.
Fight for autonomous Kurdistan will start now.
Iran lost its uranium. Being good traders they are better off not to get into trouble.
Really where did get that Iran lost its Uranium
Any side claiming they ‘won’ is spinning narratives.
Strait of Hormuz was open before the war and it’s only reopened till the ceasefire lasts.
This war was about regime change, which has failed. It has repalced old Khamenei with young Khamenei, and galvanized IRGC support for the next two decades.
Iran had already agreed to giving up its nuclear program in a deal before the war started (as per Oman)
We don’t have the final deal, but I am sure Iran will have its sanctions lifted if it is allowing a reopening of Hormuz, and I am also sure that US presence in GCC will now be rolled back.
Let’s wait to see the terms.
The goal of regime change was quitely dropped by the third day of war. Control of the region and safe guarding is allies was American aim and that happened in patches.
Straits of harmouz has been opened, oil prices have dropped.
What did Iran gain apart from some brownie points?
Iran’s oil sanctions have been removed.
So I guess the Iranians made the calculation that more income from Hormuz Open and Oil flowing as compared to Charging to use Hormuz
Hezbollah win over Israel in Southern Lebanon
Seeing this brought me such immense joy. This is a major victory for the people of the Jnoub, and moments like this will be etched in history
https://web.facebook.com/reel/1729775737987863
Fantastic Crusader History
Beaufort or Belfort Castle, known locally as Qal’at al-Shaqif (Arabic: قلعة الشقيف, romanized: Qalʿat al-Shaqīf)[1] or Shaqif Arnun (شقيف أرنون, Shaqīf Arnūn), is a Crusader fortress in Nabatieh Governorate, Southern Lebanon, about 1 kilometre (0.62 mi) to the south-south-east of the village of Arnoun. There was a fortification on the site before it was captured by Fulk, King of Jerusalem, in 1139 and construction of the Crusader castle probably began soon after. Saladin captured Beaufort in 1190, but 60 years later Crusaders re-took it. In 1268 Sultan Baibars finally captured the castle for the Islamic forces.
Beaufort provides one of the few cases in which a medieval castle proved of military value and utility in modern warfare as well, as shown by its late 20th-century history, especially during the 1982 Lebanon War.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort_Castle,_Lebanon