Is Pakistan primitive?

By new Precedent, ceasefires are lifted by default, and maintained only where a commenter requests one on Online Safety grounds, as K has (BB – RNJ – 0M).

We argued in “The Patriarchy Survives Everything” that has no religion.

Over the last month, in order not to be Islamophobic, a line was surreptiously moved. The proposition that women should be confined to the home and kept out of higher education stopped being an outrage to be dismantled in public and became a “perspective” to be weighed.

Silence on the right of a woman to leave her own house, and called the silence respect. A space loud for one liberty and mute on another has not been even-handed; it has been captured. That is the moment the emperor lost his clothes and the courtiers agreed not to mention it.

How a country starts eating halal

RNJ consistently brings up Nassim Taleb’s seminal piece on “The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority.”

A society does not turn to halal or kosher food because the majority converts. It turns because a small, inflexible minority will eat only one way, the flexible majority does not greatly mind, and it is cheaper for the caterer to feed everyone the strict diet than to run two kitchens. The intolerant minority sets the menu for all. Taleb called it the dictatorship of the small minority, and he was right that the most intolerant party, not the most numerous, decides the rule.

This is what happened to our comment section, and it is the smaller copy of what happened to Pakistan. A vocal faction that will not bend establishes the terms and to object to it is to be rude to your hosts.

Restricting a woman’s right to pursue higher education

Are we are tarring a nation with one man’s words? Q did not call for banning women from education. He called for severely restricting it, through quotas and the withdrawal of public funding, on the reasoning that most women in lecture halls are squandering a fertility they owe to children.

It is the drawing-room translation of an arrangement already in force across much of Pakistan. His opinion is the polite, exportable form of a structure that tens of millions of women already live inside.

Elites will continue educating their womenfolk

The Ashraf families would never accept for their own daughters what they prescribe for everyone else’s.

We sat beside one such table a moment ago. The Pakistani elite, in Karachi and in London alike, has done something that earns a cold sort of admiration: it has persuaded a population to feel the confiscation of its women’s liberty as devotion, and to hear the naming of that confiscation as blasphemy.

The men defending the arrangement here are not defending a constraint they themselves endure. They are defending a culture, upheld by women, whom they will never meet.

Patheticstan?

Barely half of Pakistani women can read and write. In the tribal areas the figure for women falls below ten percent. Pakistan carries the second largest population of out-of-school children on earth, after Nigeria, and keeps its girls out at a higher rate than its boys.

Across much of the country a woman cannot move from one place to another without a male relative to transport her, not as a courtesy but as a condition of her safety and her name.

None of this is a slander against Pakistani women. It is the footprint of a structure pressed onto them. We are describing what is done to people, not what they are.

Islam?

Then comes the defence that absorbs all the others: this is simply Islam, and a Muslim society is bound to arrive here.

Take Iran. It is more clerical than Pakistan, governed by jurists, and it enforces a veil Pakistan has never imposed. By the Islam theory it should sit at or below Pakistan on every measure of a woman’s life. It does the reverse. Iranian women are the majority of the country’s university students and outscore the men on entry and in the hall, and female youth literacy runs near ninety-nine percent against Pakistan’s barely-half.

The detail that closes the case is this. The Iranian clergy grew so alarmed at women out-graduating men that they imposed quotas and barred women from whole faculties to hold them back, and the women stayed the majority regardless.

Hold the religion constant and vary only the policy, and the outcomes part completely. The variable was never piety. It is whether the state and the family will let a woman build a self they cannot later repossess. Iran spent decades trying to cap a rising tide of educated women and could not reverse it. Pakistan arranged matters so the tide never came in.

The verdict

We will use the word K warned us was colonial. A structure that confiscates the liberty of half its members at birth, by choice and not by necessity, and trains them to call the theft holiness, is primitive. The word falls on the arrangement, not on the people held inside it, and the arrangement has earned it. Conservative, traditional, devout: these are the camouflage the structure wears, and we decline to hand it the camouflage.

Kabir’s closing defence is that a country cannot be so backward if a woman may run it, and he offers Benazir Bhutto and Maryam Nawaz. They prove the reverse. They are daughters of dynasties, and a structure that crowns a Bhutto’s daughter while leaving half its women unlettered has not raised women. It has raised a handful of surnames, which purchase their own women an exemption from the rule that still binds the rest. That is the engine of our last essay restated, the few ruling the many, in a sari this time.

Mera Jism, Meri Marzi

One slogan gathers the rest. The Aurat March marches under “mera jism, meri marzi,” my body, my choice, and K clarified, that the Urdu jism carries a sexual charge the English “body” lacks, so the country hears a demand for licence where the marchers make a claim to selfhood. Grant the mistranslation entire.

It changes nothing, because even were a woman demanding the right to sleep with whomever she chooses, she is owed it. An adult answers for their sexual life to herself and to her maker, to no committee, absent a marriage or a contract they entered freely of their own accord.

A culture is not weighed by its skyline or its arsenal. It is weighed by whether it lets its adults govern their own destinies & bodies.

How to deal with an Ugly Idea

We let Q’s argument stand in the thread, because a space that cannot look an ugly idea in the face cannot defeat it, and the Commentariat took it apart far more thoroughly than deletion would have. But letting an argument stand is not the same as letting it set the tone.

We spent two months so careful not to wound the faith that we forgot to defend the women, and the Female Admin Team now holds the gender threads for exactly that reason: so that the next time the intolerant minority reaches for the menu, the pen is in the hand of someone with skin in the question.

The patriarchy survives empires. We said so ourselves. Let us at least make certain it does not survive on our good manners.

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58 Comments
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Kabir
1 month ago

Don’t conflate my views with Q’s I have never called for banning or even restricting women’s education. My mother is a medical doctor. My phuppos are medical doctors. My phuppo’s daughter is getting a PhD. Anyone who wants an education and is able to afford it should get one.

I’m simply saying that procreation is a biological imperative. Q is right about that. Marriage is a cultural norm (not just in Pakistan but in South Asia). Getting your daughter married to a respectable and preferably wealthy man is a core parental concern. A Suitable Boy is one of the great Indian novels for a reason.

“Aurat March” is not asking for the right to be promiscuous. If they were asking for that, it would severely undermine their movement. Pakistan is a deeply religious country. Islam is clear that the only man a woman can sleep with is her husband with whom she has had a nikaah. Anything else is adultery. Adultery is clearly against Islam–just as it is against most religions.

Islam is clear that no one can have sex outside of marriage. This is a religious value. This is actually a value in most religions. It’s just that the West has secularized to the point that no one really takes this seriously there.

One can certainly make the argument that Benazir and Maryam Nawaz represent dynasties. Of course they do. But that doesn’t account for the many many women in Pakistan who are doctors, lawyers, etc. Most of these women have husbands and children as well.

I do stand by the point that “primitive” is a colonialist word. If you wouldn’t stand for your own culture being called primitive than don’t apply this to cultures you don’t belong to.

Lastly, I am quite liberal. I don’t tell other people how to live their lives. But, at the same time, I recognize that most Pakistanis are far more serious about Islam than I am. They have the right to live their lives according to Islam.

Kabir
1 month ago
Reply to  Kabir

Sorry who are you?

What was the need for this passive aggression?

I don’t need to take your suggestions for what I post on board. You are a nobody on the Internet and certainly not in charge of this site. You are free to ignore any thing that doesn’t interest you.

Kabir
1 month ago
Reply to  Kabir

If you want a ceasefire, take it up with XTM.

Once again, you have absolutely no control over what I post here. Deal with it.

I do not tolerate passive aggression.

Archer
Archer
1 month ago
Reply to  Kabir

Aww, another red line..you are a veritable traffic signal..

Kabir
1 month ago
Reply to  Archer

We have a precedent post on this:

https://www.brownpundits.com/2026/04/25/passive-aggression-is-bullying/

Stop trolling. Your comments are low-signal. You haven’t addressed a single substantive point in the original post. You just chose to come out from nowhere and attack me apropos of nothing.

Archer
Archer
1 month ago
Reply to  Kabir

What is there to say about this post. All of it is true. You have been single handedly responsible to killing off all meaningful discussions on this blog so don’t give someone else a lecture on low signal comments and trolling. Many really good contributors have left because they cant stand your childish tantrums but are aware that XTM stands with you and needs you to keep the fire burning. Not everyone is jobless and online 24/7 to keep a blog alive.

You should be ashamed of openly defending the indefensible through your support of Q’s comments on women and patriarchy while conveniently pretending to be a disinterested party “who ultimately doesn’t care”.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
1 month ago
Reply to  Archer

Also the frequent reposts of non original work to push original stuff down.

Naam de Guerre
Naam de Guerre
1 month ago
Reply to  BombayBadshah

That’s so tiresome! The readership survey has made it quite clear what they flock to this forum for. Reposts of literary pieces is definitely not it. I have a substack account for that.

Kabir
1 month ago
Reply to  Naam de Guerre

Passive aggressive. You are free to ignore whatever doesn’t interest you.

@XTM: I request a ceasefire with NDG.

Bombay Badshah
1 month ago
Reply to  Naam de Guerre

Also the purpose isn’t even wanting to be read, but push the Indian stuff down (some of which have nothing to do with Pakistan at all).

Kabir
1 month ago
Reply to  Archer

What’s with the passive aggression?

“You have been single handedly responsible for killing off all meaningful discussions on this blog”– Really? What has killed off all “meaningful discussion” on this blog is the “Saffroniate” and the “Crescentiate” yelling at each other constantly.

I’m not the one who has given a death threat to anyone (that would be someone in the “Saffroniate”). I don’t constantly post low-signal pictures of “Dhurandhar” or say “Mauqa Mauqa”.

Clearly you get your jollies from trolling Pakistan and/or me personally. Grow up.

I have expressed my disagreement with Q. I do not believe in restricting women’s access to education. You all are free to ignore Q’s opinions and deprive them of oxygen. But you all choose to dump on him. Clearly there needs to be a Pakistani who is the object of the “ten minute hate”

@XTM: I want a ceasefire with Archer.

This passive aggression has to be controlled. I am not here to be bullied by all and sundry.

Kabir
1 month ago
Reply to  X.T.M

Pakistan is an Islamic Republic. 97% of the population is Muslim. They have a right to live their lives according to Islam.

I really don’t see why this bothers non-Pakistanis and non-Muslims so much. It’s not like it effects their lives in any way.

Kabir
1 month ago
Reply to  X.T.M

Many people think male circumcision is genital mutilation. It’s certainly a violation of a baby’s bodily autonomy.

A woman’s sexual choices are between her and her husband. Islam is very clear that the only sexual partner a woman can have is her legally wedded husband. There is no negotiation on this especially in a country that is 97% Muslim. As Sophia noted in her essay, even Pakistani Christians etc would frown on a woman having relationships out of wedlock.

My point is that most people on this blog neither live in Pakistan nor are Muslim. Let Pakistanis live the way they want to live. There seems to be a constant urge to belittle Pakistan. That’s what I’m objecting to.

Kabir
1 month ago
Reply to  X.T.M

I’m not defending female circumcision. But from a medical perspective, male circumcision also destroys sensitivity etc. There is a whole movement against it except in medical circumstances. The only reason why there is so little said against it is that it is a religious requirement in Judaism and Islam and also the default choice in American culture (for reasons that are peculiar to America and don’t need to be gone into here).

I would be wary of using terms like “civilized world”. There are people who don’t think India is part of the civilized world. I’m sure that kind of language used about India would upset you. So you can see that such words used about Pakistan are offensive to Pakistanis.

Kabir
1 month ago
Reply to  X.T.M

See my latest post with objective statistics about the Gender Gap index and dowry deaths:

https://www.brownpundits.com/2026/06/19/gender-statistics-in-india

My point is that you consider India “civilized”. Lots of Westerners probably consider it an incredibly benighted country. Just as you find that view offensive, I take great offense to the word “primitive” being applied to Pakistan.

I’m not going to belabor this point here.

It’s easy for people on this blog to criticize Pakistan– a country most have no real experience of and no emotional connection to. If I apply the same words to India, people will be outraged. So I think this kind of discourse shouldn’t be indulged in.

Bombay Badshah
1 month ago
Reply to  X.T.M

And India is improving very very fast. I expect India to be Latin American/East European level on average regarding social norms by mid century.

One interesting thing about this gender gap index that has been posted is that India actually fares way better than many Muslim countries which are richer/more developed.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/global-gender-gap-by-country

This kind of ties into the point I was making about sports.

Iran/Dagestan etc has world class wrestling programs winning multiple Olympic/World Championship Golds throughout the years. But the women are at zero, with Japanese women hoovering up all the golds (their men do well too but not the absolute domination of Japanese women who always win more than half the golds).

As an aside, I have been following junior level wrestling events and Indian women do very well there, occasionally even surpassing the Japanese. So it would be interesting to see when this bubbles up to senior level.

BombayBadshah
BombayBadshah
1 month ago
Reply to  X.T.M

In a way I guess.

Although like I mentioned in another comment, there really isn’t any sport in which Indian men have found some degree of success that women haven’t.

Main thing is the competition in women’s wrestling is lower due to no presence of Iranians and Dagestanis who do very well on the men’s side and have excellent ecosystems.

Not a thing in say cricket where the top women’s teams are the same as the top men’s teams. So both Indian men and women have to go through the SENA sides to win.

Last edited 1 month ago by Bombay Badshah
Kabir
1 month ago

On the topic of women’s rights in Pakistan:

I wrote this review of Fawzia Afzal-Khan’s Siren Song: Understanding Pakistan Through Its Women Singers which was published in an academic journal some years ago.

The book is specifically about women singers but it is relevant in the context of “respectability politics” etc.

https://kabiraltaf.substack.com/p/review-siren-songunderstanding-pakistan

RecoveringNewsJunkie
1 month ago

Good that some obvious nonsense is finally being called out and spotlighted.

Also, this so-called “ceasefire” is a euphemism to allow one person to spread his personal perspective unchallenged in comment threads. The fact that list of commenters that end up on this “ceasefire” list keeps growing, spells it out, really.

I think I will be referring to this ‘ceasefire’ as ……mollycoddling.

Last edited 1 month ago by RecoveringNewsJunkie
RecoveringNewsJunkie
RecoveringNewsJunkie
1 month ago
Reply to  X.T.M

Can we stop pretending that the coddling/ceasefire is about some sort of ‘online safety’?

Allowing Kabir to pretend that my disagreement in comments is a ‘safety issue’ – Mind you nothing I have ever said to him has ever been personally disrespectful relative to the froth he’s spewed at me – I have never had to apologize or retract my comments.

I mean, I don’t care that much and am fine with indulging the coddling, but I am not gonna participate in Baghdad Bob-ing about what it is.

Archer
Archer
1 month ago

You have been around long enough to know what the equations on this blog are..he needs the Pakistani token and speaking truth to power will never work. On the funnier side, there is no one left now for him to declare a ceasefire against 🙂

Calvin
Calvin
1 month ago
Reply to  X.T.M

Not really different from any overseas subcontinental person.

Archer
Archer
1 month ago
Reply to  X.T.M

“We” are grateful for your certificate.

Kabir
1 month ago

Also, this so-called “ceasefire” is a euphemism to allow one person to spread his personal perspective unchallenged in comment threads. The fact that list of commenters that end up on this “ceasefire” list spells it out, really.

This is a passive aggressive comment. We have a precedent post on passive aggression. Do not do this again.

The ceasefires were instituted to stop the toxic discourse between the “Saffroniate” and the “Crescentiate”. BP has calmed down significantly since then and I think most people will agree that that is a good thing.

Anyone can ask for a “ceasefire”. This is not some special concession that is only available to me.

Those who I have “ceasefires” with are free to make their own threads in which I will not participate. There was one on the Indus Waters Treaty just yesterday.

If someone’s enjoyment of BP is diminished by the fact that they cannot troll me, that’s their problem and they have to deal with it.

Also, it’s clear that now that I am not available for trolling, Q has become the object of the daily “ten minute hate”. The dynamic is incredibly transparent.

Kabir
1 month ago
Reply to  X.T.M

I’ve stated I don’t agree with Q.

One can ignore his views and deprive them of oxygen. One can even delete offensive comments.

But the fact that people enjoy ganging up on him shows that they need a Pakistani to hate.

Also, he doesn’t represent Pakistan. He represents himself.

Kabir
1 month ago
Reply to  X.T.M

There are marches for women’s rights all over the world–even in the West.

Q represents a particular slice of Pakistani society. But there are many people who don’t agree with him.

I’m a centrist. I agree with him that there is a biological imperative to have children. Unlike men, women can only have children in prime childbearing years. Otherwise, they forgo this option. And most people get married with the idea of having children.

I disagree with his policy prescriptions.

Kabir
1 month ago
Reply to  X.T.M

I’ve consistently said that if people choose not to marry or not to have children that’s their individual choice. I don’t go around telling people how to live their lives.

But part of the purpose of marriage (in the view of most people at least) is to have children. You don’t have to agree with this but at least understand the worldview of most people.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
RecoveringNewsJunkie
1 month ago
Reply to  X.T.M

so challenging bald-faced misogyny is apparently to be called ‘trolling Q’ in Kabiristan world-view. And doing that makes one a ‘hater’.

This is an incredibly juvenile take on an utterly black-and-white, unambiguous issue, one on which no “center left American” would ever be caught on the wrong side.

Whatevs.

Kabir
1 month ago

I’m not playing around. Don’t mention me or reply to me.

I take ceasefire violations extremely seriously.

RecoveringNewsJunkie
RecoveringNewsJunkie
1 month ago
Reply to  Kabir

Your comment is a “ceasefire violation” 😀

Get well soon.

0M-3
1 month ago

the female literacy rate in Pakistan is a coin toss, but because Kabir’s phuppho is a doctor everything must be amazing. Pakistan in its entirety history has produced around 36000 PhDs, meanwhile India produces around that number every year despite being a rather poor nation itself.

Pakistan’s abysmal literacy numbers. The reality is Pakistan’s main focus needs to be on primary education, the education of elites tends to have some negligible benefits but the education of the masses leads to an overall more enlightened society. Even Q’s favorite Mao came into prominence initially due to the extensive education programs of the communists for the peasantry and even women.

Regardless I don’t believe that Pakistan is entirely a primitive society. Its elite live in comparable conditions to the west however large portion of their population lives in conditions similar to Sub-Saharan Africa. It has had to become a “hard” state to simply keep the contradictions of its own nature from falling apart. However, it would not be unfair to say large portion of Pakistani (>50%) live primitive lives, where the rules of 7th century religions matter more than any logically reasoned policy.

Kabir
1 month ago
Reply to  0M-3

Sir, there is a ceasefire. You are not to mention my name or comment anything about me.

This is a clear ceasefire violation.

0M-3
1 month ago
Reply to  Kabir

By new Precedent, ceasefires are lifted by default, and maintained only where a commenter requests one on Online Safety grounds, as K has (BB – RNJ – 0M).

Doesn’t even read the article.

Kabir
1 month ago
Reply to  0M-3

Yes, exactly. I have a ceasefire with you. So that has not been lifted.

Read what you copy pasted.

Kabir
1 month ago
Reply to  X.T.M

It’s cool.

I just don’t understand why apropos of nothing this post became a referendum on me. That was uncalled for.

Kabir
1 month ago
Reply to  X.T.M

I’m basically a center-left American.

The only thing that separates me from most center-left Americans is that when it comes to Pakistan, I’m a staunch Pakistani nationalist.

Bombay Badshah
1 month ago
Reply to  0M-3

The fact that Elite-istanis are spending so much time here arguing with us Indian anonymous plebs is the biggest indictment of Pakistan.

The Indian equivalents would be too busy in the “cocktail circuit” doing performances in the likes of IHC/NCPA etc, talks in literary festivals, general parties etc. They would hardly have time to spend online.

The lack of such an ecosystem in Pakistan is telling.

S Qureishi
S Qureishi
1 month ago

Someone commented about cannablism in the other thread.. just a reminder that Cannibalism is legal in India but banned in Pakistan. Its pretty primitive in my opinion.

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