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The Comment thread is afire with the usual (and senseless) India-Pakistan arguments (essentially which of the two is poorer). Q waves the whole question away by pointing at the figure, unimpressed by “an average Indian producing only $2,800 in GDP every year,” and asks what the point even is. There is a point, two in fact.
First: per capita and scale measure different things. Per capita describes the life of a citizen. Scale describes the weight of a state. A single integrated market of 1.4 billion people generates agglomeration, economies of scale, and a pull on capital and talent that no small rich economy can match (India’s ascent in the world of cricket is an extremely interesting meditation). That is why India passed Japan in 2025 to become the world’s fourth-largest economy, why it is the fastest-growing major one, and why it is on course to take third from Germany by around 2028. The market no exporter can ignore, the trade terms a four-trillion-dollar base can lean on, the air defence and roads it can fund: that is concrete power, and it is not nothing. Much of the gain is siphoned by a clutch of oligarchic houses, but the dynamism is real.
Second: however that same wealth does not buy what BB imagines it buys. India outweighs Pakistan in GDP by something close to eleven to one. It has still not turned Pakistan into its East Germany, a dependent satellite drawn quietly into its orbit and, in time, absorbed. Pakistan remains sovereign, armed, and unbought. Pakistanis are not running across the Punjabi wall to their ethnic kin.
In May 2025, after Pahalgam, the larger economy did not dictate terms: Operation Sindoor ended not in surrender but in a ceasefire announced, awkwardly, from Washington, with both capitals claiming the win.
Look West. Iran is a fraction of the wealth of the United States and Israel, yet it has absorbed the most advanced air forces on earth, kept its regime, and kept the knowledge to rebuild what was struck. The guns fell silent at a ceasefire, not a capitulation. Wealth buys reach. It does not buy outcomes.
BB treats the GDP gap as a deed of ownership over Kashmir, and assumes Kashmiris will swallow their pride for a higher income per head, that prosperity purchases consent. It misreads the Islamicate moral economy entirely. In that ledger ‘Izzat and Deen, dignity and faith, are not line items to be outbid. The Hyderabadi Harvard PhD still sings the song of his lost people.
Peoples who set independence above comfort have done so across the whole anti-colonial century, and no balance sheet has ever talked them out of it. Money may buy luxury but not loyalty.
What price will any Indian or Pakistani nationalist accept for their love and loyalty to their homeland?
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Wonderful judgement BB – thank you very much for centring BP first!
I think they should disengage voluntarily.
But if gets too crazy, then certainly extend the “ceasefire”.
Yeah, I realized – what’s the point. Reality is reality. Comments won’t change anything.
I am willing to accede to the ceasefire requested by BB, on the strict condition that he completely ceases writing about Pakistan, Pakistanis, and the Pakistani diaspora or people of Pakistani descent. This prohibition applies to any form of mention – whether actively, in passing, or by direct reference – and explicitly includes any commentary on the nation’s culture, history, religion, art, society and sports, including cricket.
I wouldn’t be so sure of the “East Germany” moment never happening.
While India is “richer” than Pakistan now it hasn’t peeled away the way it will in coming decades.
Iran’s example doesn’t fly in this case because it has no connection with either Israel or United States culturally. Pakistan exists as the “not India”.
Many Pakistani writers have admitted to India “shining” makes them feel dim.
In the commentariat crossfire, someone from the Pakistani side mentioned how India was more “hungry” than Pakistan and linked an Al Jazeera article from 2022 citing the Global Hunger Index.
Thing is, in the present day India has overtaken Pakistan in the Hunger Index.
https://www.globalhungerindex.org/ranking.html
And that is indicative of what I am saying.
The few things that Pakistan was “better” at are going away. Fast bowlers. Lower poverty rates.
And if the situation is like this at less than a 2x pci differential, what about at 3x? 4x? 5x?
Unlike the North Koreans, Pakistanis cannot turn away.
Of course, no one is saying that Pakistan will become a part of India (even Indians don’t want it).
But a relationship India has with Bangladesh is not out of the realms of the possibility in the future IF current growth trajectories persist.
And remember, Bangladeshis are also Muslim subscribing to the ledger of “izzat and deen”.
The global hunger index article was from late 2022, a little over 3 years ago, not a crazy long time ago and is likely going to be worse due to oil prices skyrocketing and global inflation increasing – these economic pressures made India slip in the economic size rankings from 4th to 6th only a month ago.
Quoting some left-liberal Gen X Pakistani writer from something she wrote like 20 years ago is not a good proxy for understanding the Pakistani national zeitgeist. Pakistanis genuinely do not care if India prospers or surpasses us in development, all we care about is our sovereignty is respected and that India ceasing it’s support for terrorism in Pakistan that has led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Pakistanis. Pakistan should never forgive and never forget. As for a Bangladesh-like relation, we can never be like them because we’re a much larger country and are not surrounded by India, we have many alternatives and alliances that Bangladesh unfortunately does not have and that’s because of our geography. I empathize with the Bangladeshis for they will always suffer from Indian interference and Neo-imperialism, through no fault of their own.
India can celebrate its successes in cricket – a sport nobody outside of South Asians care about while Pakistan can celebrate the fact it was the only country in the region to win an Olympic gold medal at Paris 2024.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/gFsdbm-AG2A
Also, Bangladesh is not a nuclear weapon state. Pakistan is. So that’s a major difference.
Pakistan is not immune to these “economic pressures”, and is even worse affected. So India’s ranking above Pakistan will remain. Let us talk about “likely going to be worse” when it happens.
Again, diaspora blind spot. There are multiple videos online of real Pakistanis cribbing about various stuff. Americans obviously do not care.
I wonder where Pakistan is. And what sport did their former Prime Minister play?
Like I said, North Americans cannot understand South Asians.
Congratulations. Truly commendable. India won the silver medal then. India also won the gold medal in the same event in Tokyo 2020. I wonder what medal did the Pakistan win then, if they even did win one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rW_fwcmyIfk
Pakistan is not immune to these “economic pressures”, and is even worse affected. So India’s ranking above Pakistan will remain. Let us talk about “likely going to be worse” when it actually happens.
Again, diaspora blind spot. There are multiple videos online of real Pakistanis cribbing about various stuff. Americans obviously do not care.
I wonder where Pakistan is. And what sport did their former Prime Minister play?
Like I said, North Americans cannot understand South Asians.
Congratulations. Truly commendable. India won the silver medal then. India also won the gold medal in the same event in Tokyo 2020. I wonder what medal did Pakistan win then, if they even did win one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rW_fwcmyIfk
India doesn’t look for any East Germany moment for Pakistan, it doesn’t expect Pakistan to be capable of it. It expects individual Pakistani states will find that they can better serve their Deen and Izzat away from a Punjabi hegemony. When 80% of families have trouble affording basic nourishment in Balochistan can that family be said to have ample Izzat to satisfy them? When farmers of Sindh find their land barren due to water from the Indus diverted towards the Cholistan desert by their army do you think they’re getting Izzat from the state? When a tribal person sitting in KPK is pushed becoming a refugee in Afghanistan for his mere Pashtun heritage (like 5,00,000 other Pastuns this year and 20,00,000 other Pastuns who were turned into refugees in the past 2-3 years) do you think he is being given Izzat?
India doesn’t need to satisfy these myriad people’s need for Izzat and Deen. It just needs to make the reality stark enough that it is clear that Pakistan as a state is unable to satisfy the needs for Deen and Izzat.
If you’re imagining a breakup of Pakistan that is never going to happen. It’s not 1971 anymore.
I very much doubt your concern for people in Balochistan and KPK is genuine. Probably, it stems from an anti-Pakistan attitude.
Btw, I have many relatives living in Peshawar. My paternal grandfather was born and raised there.
Yes of course please tell me more about how Kashmir is occupied but Balochistan which is on its 5th insurgency is rightful Pakistani land.
Kashmir is Disputed Territory.
Balochistan is unequivocally a province of Pakistan.
XTM wrote a precedent post on this. Please read it.
https://www.brownpundits.com/2025/12/21/why-balochistan-is-not-kashmir/
Thanks for quoting precedent.
No problem:)
This is a very repetitive argument.
Khan of Kalat disputed that claim at independence.
And?
The point is the status of both territories in international law. The entire world considers Kashmir Disputed Territory. That’s why the world speaks of “Indian administered” and “Pakistani administered” Kashmir. The LOC is a ceasefire line not an international border.
Balochistan is constitutionally a Pakistani province. The UN doesn’t dispute this neither does any country.
Going off that rationale then East Punjab, Hyderabad Deccan and the entire northeast of India is occupied land.
Don’t bring up Hyderabad Deccan. That gets these people really upset 🙂
these people?
Indian nationalists
It only elicits amusement from me.
I didn’t even know Pakistani nationalists even cared about Hyderabad, an extremely Telugu city.
Hyderabad is Telugu in a way Chennai is Tamil.
our understanding is that Chennai was extremely Telugu but shifted post Independence.
same with Hyderabad?
we are happy to be corrected as we were on Goa
Telugus were always a majority in the “city limits” but Muslims were more concentrated in the urban areas.
The “old city” of Hyderabad is still Muslim majority but current day Hyderabad has extended far beyond those boundaries (just like Byzantine Constantinople is a tiny part of Turkish Istanbul).
As an aside, an interesting point about Chennai. Coastal Andhra being part of Madras state and Chennai being the capital meant it had a huge Telugu population. Even the Telugu movie industry began there. All the big Tollywood families are from coastal Andhra and not Telangana (or Hyderabad state).
After the states re-division, they still made movies out of Chennai but because of playing second fiddle to the Tamil movie industry they shifted en masse to Hyderabad in the 1980s with the construction of Ramoji Film city.
All of the big Telugu nepo babies currently working (Prabhas from Baahubali, Ram Charan from RRR, Mahesh Babu from Varanasi) are all Chennai born.
The Indian Muslims in IT are disproportionately from Hyderabad.
It’s an interesting sub-culture since it is the Dakhani cultural complex. South Indian based Muslims who speak Dakhani.
We remember this Indian linguist on twitter say whenever he wrote on Dakhani, his tweets would blow up.
Like this Hyderabadi Harvard PhD chap (yes we know he’s a Yank as well but HHPhD is much more alliterative so forgive us!)
There is another very interesting thing; the irrendentist Muslim populations in Diaspora (Hyderabadis, Kashmiris) just adore Pakistanis in Diaspora..
We will write on this phenomenon in a future post. This doesn’t impact the geopolitical reality but as a sociological feature of the Muslim community abroad .. which in its own way is very powerful (for many reasons)..
Yeah, Hyderabad being an IT hub with educational institutes catering to it possibly contribute to this.
In a way, a reverse influence with Hyderabadi Muslims being influenced by the ruling Telugu elite (the entire IT push was Chandrababu Naidu’s idea).
One of the reasons for Indian Muslims being poorer than average that a lot of people miss is that Indian Muslims are disproportionately located in the poorer states.
The Indian government should really look to develop both Lucknow and Patna and revitalize Calcutta.
As of now the only true North Indian metropolis is Delhi.
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Original comment: Well the illegal invasion and annexation is a subject in Pakistani patriot circles. When I speak to Hyderabadi Muslim immigrants in America, they talk about the cities Islamicate heritage and how it was a hub of a Turko-Persian and Yemeni culture, a lot of the ones I know in America always speak about their Turkic, Afghan, Yemeni or Iranian ancestries and they do retain quite a lot of influences in their culture.
Except for the fact that there is no raging insurgency on the level of Balochistan there.
The “raging insurgency” is R&AW sponsored Dhurandars (terrorists).
Nobody picks up a gun to fight against a modern state without having been left any other option. If Pakistan had done the bare minimum of offering fair distribution of revenues extracted from mining, gas, etc it wouldn’t have come to this. No matter how much money any external org pumps into a region it cannot create grouses where none exist.
That’s actually a fair point when it comes to Balochistan.
But it also applies to Kashmir. Of course Pakistan supported the “insurgency” (or the freedom struggle from our POV). But India’s rigging of the 1987 (?) election played a major role as well.
As you say, people don’t pick up the gun unless they believe they have no other options.
You clearly don’t understand what’s going on. However I would say everything you said actually applies to Punjab/Khaalistan and their exploitation by the Indian state. The insurgencies in the northeast and previous rebellion in Punjab were due to state repression and exploitation.
Is any of your family living in a refugee camp like 3-4 million Pashtuns who have been forced into Afghanistan?
This is a ridiculous argument.
My family are natural born Pakistani citizens descended from Pakistani citizens. My paternal grandfather’s family was settled in Peshawar even during the British Raj. We are ethnically Kashmiri however.
The Pakistani government’s policy towards Afghan refugees is a separate topic which can be discussed but I have a feeling you’re not arguing in good faith.
Biharis and UPites are pretty big on Izzat maxing. Indians outside this stock will have extinction level TFR, and should be concetrating on how to keep these guys from replacing them rather than dreaming about how to Balkanize Pakistan.
It is the booming TFRs of Balochistan, KPK and Afghanistan vis a vis the rest of Pakistan that is actually the threat to the “Balkanization” of Pakistan.
The Kashmir insurgency dying down has a lot to do with their “extinction level TFR”
All ethnicities in Pakistan have somewhat similar TFR rates. So there is nothing much of concern.
what is extinction level TFR; the furore over birth rates misunderstands class and property rights.
A TFR of 1 where most Indian states are headed.. means that new population halves in one generation.. if lifespan is 3 generations this is a total population decline of 70% in 50 years. Where will property go if there are no heirs? To those who will be reproducing. (Biharis)
Even outside of balkanization, a non aggressive posture vis a vis India actually provide more “Deen and Izzat” to the average Pakistani by giving them economic prosperity as funds can be reallocated from military buildup.
Pakistani spending on education has been declining year by year and is now below 1% of GDP.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1978857
You can basically do a Bangladesh and maintain economic parity with India (at least on a per capita basis) OR you can do a Pakistan and then do a Bangladesh a few decades down the line with an even richer India.
Iran with it’s $400 billion GDP resoundingly defeated Israel/US’s $33 trillion in combined GDP.
This should be a wakeup call for people who think they will conquer the neighbourhood with spreadsheets.
Iran is not even a nuclear weapon state. Pakistan is.
So this argument is even more ridiculous.
Difference between a defensive war and an offensive one where one dreams of taking over Kashmir.
That’s why Op Sindoor failed and so will Sindoor 2.0 which Indians have been salivating about since last years defeat. Pakistan won’t initiate a war with India and I believe there’s only a political solution to the occupation of Jammu, Kashmir & Ladakh however if India attacks Pakistan again and it heads to an all out war then that just gives Pakistan and the Kashmiris the green light to change the borders.
Pakistan cannot change the borders. It has tried multiple times and failed each time.
And the Kashmiris didn’t come to their aid at any time either.
Fought on the side of India in 1948 and ratted out the Pakistanis in 1965.
The political solution has already been achieved. India keeps its part. Pakistan keep their part.
You can’t predict the future just like how you guys couldn’t predict your resounding defeat last year. 1948 and 1965 were a very long time ago. The generation that lived through that like my grandparents are either old or passed away. The rebellion of the 90s and early 2010s is more representative of what Kashmiris would do if they got assistance in a liberation war.
A political solution was Musharraf’s 4 point proposal which India turned down, now what most Indian military guys and defense analysts yap on about is “taking back Pok” (Azad Kashmir). Notice how in global maps Pakistan always depicts the Indian occupied side as disputed territory whereas India always uses maximalist maps showing even Pakistani sides as part of India – that shows who actually hasn’t moved on and doesn’t respect the wishes of the people of Jammu&Kashmir.
Musharraf’s 4 point proposal was dead on arrival. If a united Kashmir was formed as Musharraf wanted with free movements of people what stopped Pakistan from flooding it with Tribal Lashkars like it did in 1948. There’s good reasons the talks fell through.
Former Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf’s 4-point proposal was a back-channel framework designed to resolve the long-standing Kashmir dispute between India and Pakistan.
It aimed to offer a compromise that avoided redrawing borders while respecting the autonomy and aspirations of Kashmiris.
The four key points of the proposal are:
Phased Demilitarization: A gradual withdrawal of troops from the region by both India and Pakistan to reduce conflict and normalize daily life.
Self-Governance without Independence: Providing internal self-rule and autonomy to the people of Jammu and Kashmir, allowing them to manage their own internal affairs without granting full independence from the respective countries.
Soft Borders & Free Movement: Keeping the existing Line of Control (LoC) borders in place but making them “irrelevant” by allowing free movement, trade, and travel across the region for Kashmiris.
Joint Management/Supervision: Establishing a joint mechanism involving representatives from India, Pakistan, and both sides of Kashmir to oversee common interests, such as tourism, trade, and water resources.By the mid-2000s, this formula was heavily discussed in back-channel negotiations and marked a significant shift in Pakistan’s traditional stance on the Kashmir issue.
I don’t want to be pointlessly mean but this is one of the main reasons I have no faith in the track-2 level diplomacy. If the 4-point plan was such a well discussed document then the forum clearly has no idea regarding the intent of the govts on either side. Because there is no way it was acceptable for New Delhi.
And that’s why the Jammu&Kashmir dispute remains unresolved. New Delhi was never an honest broker for peace. It was all or nothing for them.
Yes because it was always about compromise for Pakistan when it waged 4 wars of aggression for larger chunks of J&K.
BP is just recovering from its latest border encounter – we are finally going to bed praying Hamza doesn’t cause any more havoc in Lyari..
I’m Jaskirat now.
Rizwan and Shirani will carry on the good work.
There’s only been 2 wars over Kashmir – first was a liberation war, second was also a liberation war but wasn’t executed properly. ’71 was not over Kashmir and Kargil was a border skirmish/limited conflict,
The situation of the Iran US war would have been the exact same if this was initiated by Iran.
When you got more to lose, you just choose to lose and go home. Aka the mercedes and the dumper truck example.
Iran invading the USA and winning?
@XTM:
I appreciate that you’ve trashed a lot of comments which were mostly mutual India-Pakistan trolling. However, some worthwhile comments by FlyDie and girmit (which were not even on the thread concerned) also got trashed. Just flagging that.
I would strongly recommend that EK and Q desist from this mutual India-Pakistan trolling. It’s not a good look for anyone. It’s of course easier said than done.
XTM such articles only serve to fan the flames. Its a game of never ending one upmanship.
The Hyderabadi PhD still sings the songs of his lost people, so by that yardstick all Akhand Bharat nationalists will also sing songs for both the land that is lost as well as the lost people no? 😀
The Hyderabadi American PHD.
😁
yes but that is actually an indictment; he wouldn’t be able to do that in India..
that is the point. Diasporas are both deranged and invested..
we will write on this.
this isn’t to say Hyderabad will become independent, but that the essence of Hyderabadi culture is migrating spiritually
those laments have some valence
Thing is Hyderabad was always Telugu majority and it has become even more Telugu post 1948.
Of course, the Hyderabadi Muslim in the diaspora can lament about it.
Current day Hyderabad is Ramoji Film City and the tech parks dotted around the city.
Hyderabad’s infinite FSI makes as a Maharashtrian rather jealous. It’s got the making of a top Indian city. Hyderabad might get into the leagues of Mumbai, Delhi and Bengaluru soon.
if Indian cities want to soar to the top they have to get their traffic sitch in order.
https://brahm.beehiiv.com/p/the-sky-above-s-o-paulo
That’s why massive infra push.
I was in Bombay over the past few days for some work (hence a bit quiet here lol).
The metro and coastal road meant I completely skipped the traffic.
Also as an aside, the new facial recognition DigiYatra features at the airport were a breeze to use. No boarding pass required – just show your face and walk in. I had seen it in Singapore many years back. Good to see it in India.
Also skyline coming up very nicely.
as you know we love India, that is Bharat.
we believe the idea of India has to transform to fit various constituencies, it’s interesting we have the most “Akhand Bharat” stance on this blog.
we do not believe economic prosperity and other such materialism holds a Union together. Man does not live by bread alone
I think the “Idea of India” is very all encompassing anyway.
Yeah. Chennai, Kolkata left behind.
yes both are fairly sleepy towns
bien sure; we will explore this topic..
we wish to see the extension of India but we are also deliberating on how Jambudvīpa may be extended.
USA style
you do realise that we are all for Jambudvīpa..
but yes it was interesting to us; he was doing his PhD at Harvard and getting quite a following at Substack..
He mostly writes about Islam which is obviously a very popular topic.
That’s the reason for the large following. He is a good writer as well.
we felt his Urdu post went on forever. then we realised he was taking a license since he is an academic
Yes, it was a very long essay.
Making your point without losing your audience is an art.
Of course, it was only some well intentioned banter (I hope) 🙂
Actually if you read what he wrote, aside from that one triggering line it was all about rediscovering some old Islamic poems or some such. Sounded more like nostalgia to me tbh.