The Jat Gene!

About 10 years ago there was a defunct blog called the “Jat Gene.” Standard stuff. Nothing super amazing discovered, but the Jats do seem on one end of the pole. I happen to have half a dozen Jats which cluster together. You can see where they are on the PCA plots above.

– no surprise that the Jat are on the ANI end of the ANI-ASI cline

– Please note that Jat and Ror and other such groups are distinct from Pathans and especially Baloch in that the latter groups seem to have more and later gene flow/contact from West Asian groups. Perhaps this is the Islamic period? Or perhaps this is just contact due to proximity. The Baloch and Brahui in particular are distinct because they have very little AASI. The Pathan are arguably an Iranian group with South Asian inflection, but the Baloch are just plain West Asian.

– You can see at the admixture plot below. The Jat are less (marginally) European-like than the Ror, but the Treemix indicates the Ror may actually be a mix of a very European-like group with native Indian (ANI-ASI mix). The Jat are probably the same but I don’t have the samples.

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108 Replies to “The Jat Gene!”

  1. WIKI – World Jat Aryan Foundation is an organization of the Jats that aims to serve the Jat community around the world…In September 2003, the foundation hosted the World Jat Congress at Belgrade.[2] However, the foundation attracted the outburst from the External Affairs Minister, Yashwant Sinha, as the foundation was directly in touch Serbia-Montenegro Embassy at India, while the Ministry of External Affairs had no clue about this.[2] As the Delhi elections were just approaching, the Prime Minister of India, Atal Bihari Vajpayee, got involved to convince Sahib Singh Verma to cancel his scheduled program to attend the World Jat Congress.[2] Following the controversy, Vajpayee issued a written appeal to all the Cabinet Ministers of India to consult the Ministry of External Affairs on “issues concerning India’s projection or representation abroad, and initiatives involving foreign governments” before scheduling such events.[2] As a consequence, the congress was held in September later that year which had been scheduled to be held July.[2]

    Why the JAT Congress was cancelled?

  2. Razib, I have a curious question. If I’m the future we are able to splice desirable SNP/s on genes we want to edit and add to an embryo, so that the child has desirable traits or even just edit SNPs to non coding regions just cause. Does this mean that the infant is not genetically related to any populations on earth. Like on a PCA plot, would they fall deviant from all the known clusters/trends.

    So for instance, Bengali parents edit genes (via IVF) to edit (SNP/s) on certain gene coding regions or edit a series of SNPs on non coding regions, the child in the latter case is just like any Bengali (appearance wise), or in the former case, has changed (height, skin tone etc). If you were then to genotype them or sequence the population specific regions using a standard array, will they cluster with Bengalis or fall anomalous to any other population in earth (obvs to degree of change)?

    Would love for you to answer, thought it would be interesting.

  3. @Fahim, that’s such an awesome question, never thought of something like that. I guess, if you change the ethnic specific regions, then they no longer belong to a specific ethnic group. They’d be in their own category. Wow. Blows my mind. Razib, what do you think?

  4. If you were then to genotype them or sequence the population specific regions using a standard array, will they cluster with Bengalis or fall anomalous to any other population in earth (obvs to degree of change)?

    i wrote about this in the 2000s.

    the short answer is if you only snp a subset it won’t change the PCA. but by tuning 100 genes you can turn a bengali into a swede externally. but there are 10,000+ genes. so PCA they’d still be bengali.

    typical pc analysis is now 100,000 to 1 million markers. no way you would edit that many

    so yes
    you can be jat in the streets
    and bengali in the data sheets

  5. Razib,

    I have to say, these are some very interesting analyses!

    At the end of the day though, when one uses modern populations, it often feels as if we’re going a few steps backward…. since we now possess some very relevant aDNA.

    I mean, we have aDNA from the Bactria Margiana civilization and its Eneolithic antecedents (for any pre-Indo-Iranian Central Asian heritage); we have aDNA that undoubtedly originates from the peoples of the Indus Valley civilization (for any pre-Indo-Iranian northern South Asian heritage); we have aDNA from all across ancient Iran (for any West Asian admixture); and ample amounts of aDNA from the steppe (for the “Eastern European”-related contribution).

    ^ Might as well use em’.

    Central Asia (Before Indo-Iranization):

    Sarazm (Eneolithic Tajikistan)
    BMAC

    Northern South Asia (Before Indo-Iranization):

    Indus_periphery (tentatively best modeled as 75% Iran_N-related, 25% ENA. The 75% Iran_N-related is much more ANE than Iran_N, much less WHG and Dzudzuana-related, and a bit less Basal Eurasian. The 25% ENA is from a lineage that split from East Asians and Onge in nearly the manner of a trifurcation)

    West Asia (Before Indo-Iranization):

    Ganj Dareh (Neolithic Iran)
    Hajji Firuz (Bronze Age Iran, no steppe-related admixture)

    Steppe references:

    Afanasievo (Steppe_EMBA)
    Sintashta (Steppe_MLBA)
    Dali_EBA (local ANE survival; later, admixed heavily into certain Andronovo groups, and additionally found much later as an important element in the ancestry of some Scythians and Sarmatians)

    Ancient East Eurasia:

    Eastern Mongolia (Neolithic)
    China, Yellow River Samples (Late Neolithic)
    Laos (Bronze Age)

    Results posted below.

    1. Jaat_Haryana:

      54.5% Indus_periphery
      34.3% Sintashta + 5.7% Dali_EBA + 0.6% Afanasievo
      3.7% BMAC
      1.9% Hajji Firuz

      Ror:

      56.4% Indus_periphery
      34.8% Sintashta + 2.9% Dali_MLBA + 2.3% Afanasievo
      1.8% Hajji Firuz
      0.8% BMAC

      So yes, at least in Haryana, Jatts (or Jaats, or whatever most people consider to be the correct spelling) can trace around 40% of their genetic ancestry to the Eurasian steppe.

      No one else in South Asia comes close (north Indian Brahmins are at approximately 25%). Still, they’re certainly skewed towards Indus_periphery. And if we assume 25% AASI in Ind_P, then these Haryanvis are likely to be around 15% AASI.

      There’s also some minor above-noise level stuff from the Iranian plateau and Central Asia. The small/faint BMAC signal might have been brought along with the steppe ancestry, and the small/faint Iranian plateau signal might be a distant echo of the ancient Persian empire.

      Kalasha:

      37.2% Indus_periphery
      25.3% Sarazm (Eneolithic Tajikistan) + 8.6% Hajji Firuz + 3.1% BMAC
      17.6% Sintashta + 4.8% Afanasivo
      3.4% China, Yellow River Samples (Late Neolithic)

      Contrary to what is often assumed, the Kalasha are not 70% Ind_P. They are also quite unique, since they have an affinity towards Eneolithic Sarazm (an ANE-rich ancient Central Asian population). Nicely explains the ANE-shift that has always been noted.

      Kho (a Dardic people, northern Pakistan, near the Kalasha):

      34.8% Indus_periphery
      23.7% Sintashta + 8.8% Dali_EBA
      26.2% BMAC
      4.9% Eastern Mongolia (Neolithic) + 0.7% Laos Bronze Age + 0.7% China, Yellow River Samples (Late Neolithic)

      The heavy BMAC-related admixture indicates a transition into Central Asian territory.

      1. Also, we often see debates here on the genetic affinities of Pashtuns with respect to Turan, Iran, and Hind.

        So these are some quick models of Pashtuns as varying mixtures between Turan, eastern Iran, and northwestern Hind.

        Turan:

        Pamiris (Eastern Iranian peoples of Tajikistan)

        Iran:

        Khurasani Iranians

        Hind:

        Pakistani Punjabis (Jatts, or Jutts. Whichever is correct)

        Eastern Pashtuns

        43.8% Pakistani Punjabi Jatt
        33.6% Pamiri (Tajikistan)
        22.6% Khurasani Iranian

        So the eastern Pashtuns are 60% Central Asian + West Asian, and 40% northwestern South Asian.

        Central Pashtuns:

        45.5% Pamiri (Tajikistan)
        28.4% Khurasani Iranian
        26.2% Pakistani Punjabi Jatt

        The central Pashtuns are overwhelmingly Central Asian + West Asian (more skewed towards Central Asia), with 25% northwestern South Asian admixture.

        Western Pashtuns:

        39.4% Khurasani Iranian
        34% Pamiri (Tajikistan)
        26.2% Pakistani Punjabi Jatt

        Western Pashtuns are overwhelmingly West Asian + Central Asian (more skewed towards West Asia), with 25% northwestern South Asian admixture.

        So overall, Pashtuns can be modeled as primarily Central Asian (Pamiri, Eastern Iranian peoples of Tajikistan) + West Asian (eastern Persians of contemporary Iran), with a strong skew towards Pakistan (25% for western and central Pashtuns, 40% for eastern Pashtuns).

        1. Ughh, typing too fast, and not much sleep. Messed up the percentages for central and western Pashtuns.

          Central Pashtuns:

          45.4% Pamiri (Tajikistan)
          28.4% Khurasani Iranian
          26.2% Pakistani Punjabi Jatt

          Western Pashtuns:

          39.4% Khurasani Iranian
          34.4% Pamiri (Tajikistan)
          26.2% Pakistani Punjabi Jatt

          1. Hi Commentator,

            For your Pashtun models above, what Pamiris did you use (Ishkashim, Shugnan or Rushan)?

            Also, are there Khurasani Iranians on Vahaduo or Genoplot? Or do you have your own custom coordinates? I presume it’s the same for Pakistani Punjabi Jatts? I don’t see either of them on G25 Vahaduo or Genoplot.

          2. Hi IVC,

            I used all of them (averaged them out). As I’m sure you know, using only Ishkashim would significantly boast Turanian affinity for all Pashtuns (not sure why, but Ishkashim are themselves somewhat Pashtun-like), while using Rushan would depress Turanian affinity. Shugnan are intermediate, and using only those samples yields the same percentages as when averaging all of them together.

            And the Khurasani Iranians (2 samples) and Pakistani Punjabi Jatts (4 samples) were gathered by myself.

            The Pashtuns too were gathered by myself, and combined with the Pashtun data we have from academic sources (the Tarklani Pashtuns, the 4 Afghan Pashtuns from Di Cristofaro et al., etc).

          3. @Commentator
            Thank you for the reply. Are you willing to share the average coordinates of either the Khurasani or the Pakistani Punjabi Jatts? I’ve never come across verified Khurasani data.

            I was curious how different they are to the Iranian Bandaris (I believe these are the most South Asian shifted Iranians coordinates publicly available outside Iranian Baloch) and only Jatt Sikhs are available in Vahaduo or Genoplot.

            Regarding the Pashtun data, did you also use the Yusfuzai and Uthmankhel to represent Northeastern/Eastern Pashtuns? Or only Tarkalani?

            Were the Di Cristofaro Afghan Pashtuns used to represent Central Pashtuns? Finally, I imagine Kandaharis or Quetta Pashtuns were used to represent South/Southwest Pashtuns? Sorry, I’m just curious how you decided to divide them.

            Best regards

        2. the interesting aspect tho is the disjunction btwn culture/religion and genetics. unlike some hindu nationalists i think it’s dumb to include buddhist societies in turan as part of greater india, but unlike persians and sogdians, some of these turanian groups did become closely associated with dharmic cultural strands in NW south asians despite little gene flow. and the figurative representation of the buddha seems to come from the indo-greek/turanian synthesis.

          islam totally reverse the direction of cultural flow so turanians don’t see anything in common with india (well, except as a place to get rich etc.). but it wasn’t always so

          1. @Razib

            It certainly is very interesting; and I completely agree with the notion that Islam played a huge role in transforming the cultural relationships between all three regions.

            If my memory serves me right, I think I once read something by you… a post where you noted that perhaps prior to the coming of Islam to Iran and Turan, and perhaps prior to the Turkification of Turan, all three regions (Iran, Turan, and Hind) would have felt rather organically connected in terms of socio-cultural affinity. That insight of yours hit me pretty hard at the time, because it made so much sense.

          2. “, all three regions (Iran, Turan, and Hind) would have felt rather organically connected in terms of socio-cultural affinity”

            I think that had Buddhism replaced Hinduism in N-India, this would have certainly been the possibility. Like under the Kushans.

            By the time Kushans rule ended, there was enough distinctive features b/w Buddhism and Hinduism, ie the Shankracharya wars in N-India

          3. @Saurav

            On a related note, Razib mentioned the Hindu Shahis of Kabul. I’ve always been fascinated by them and the Zunbils.

            And with respect to the latter, their religion is rather interesting in terms of its syncretic nature: seems to have involved aspects of Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, and something local. But unfortunately that’s quite tentative (it seems that not much solid is known of them).

          4. Finally someone who’s interested in Zunbils!!!

            You are right i should take up ur offer of honorary Afghanship 😛

            On Zunbils i think they were the last Sun worshipers and in a way also related to the semi Hindu folks of the Sun temple at Multan. In a way they were perhaps the Ahoms of the West. Half Pagan and Half proper religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism).

            On Hindu Shahis some time last year, there was debate that whether they were Punjabi/Rajput folks while others feel they were native Afghans. What;s ur view?

          5. @Saurav

            I’m tellin’ ya, you’re always welcome… and your honorary turban and rifle are being kept safe! 😁

            Concerning the Zunbils, I find it interesting how these people were rather successful at resisting the Arabs; they kept them at bay for quite a stretch of time.

            And with regard to the Kabul Shahis, I’ve read some work that suggests a possible connection with Kambojas.

            ^ I would imagine that this indicates affinities with what is now the Greater Punjab?

          6. ^ Again with the mistakes (lol). My apologies.

            I meant Hindu Shahi, not Kabul Shahi.

      2. Thanks for that analysis, Sein. So Hindu Jats and Rors are similar in their total AASI levels? (at least based on these models) Around 14-15% total each? I thought Rors were a little more West Eurasian than Hindu Jats? Like 85% vs 87%? And how do most Pashtuns look? Around 88-90% West Eurasian?

        Appreciate your thoughts. BTW, I replied to your original query on your previous post in the “American Caste” thread. Let me know what you think. Thanks.

        1. It seems that these Jats (Haryana) and Rors (also Haryana) are nearly identical populations, as far as their genetic ancestries are concerned.

          And I wouldn’t put too much stock in differences of a few percentage points; siblings are rarely (if ever) identical in the context of these sorts of analyses.

          And yes, both Jats and Rors are approximately 15% AASI. In certain analyses, you can get them to be as low as 10% AASI, and in certain analyses you can get them to be as high as 20% AASI. But most methods and populations will yield 15%.

          Eastern Pashtuns are approximately 12% AASI (ranging between 7% and 17%, but most individuals are around 12%; Pashtun tribes are not endogamous when it comes to marrying women from outside tribe or even ethnicity, and are thus much more genetically varied than South Asian castes), and Central and Western Pashtuns are around 9% AASI (ranging between 4% and 13% AASI, with most individuals at around 9%). There’s also minor East Asian signals with many individuals (faint echos of Turkic admixture). Ranging from only 0.5%, all the way to 5%.

  6. using ancient dna and qpadmin always results in ppl asking why i used x left and right populations tho…

    but yeah i was gonna do it. thanks for doing it already

  7. Razib, how would Buddha cluster in today’s PCA groups. Do you think he was Nepalese or South Asian just born in Nepal. If so, would he cluster near Biharis and Bengalis (proximity) or other South Asian groups?

    He was a Brahmin (I think), so I guess, he’d likely cluster with UP/Bihar Brahmins.

    It’s all speculation, I know lol.

  8. If my memory serves me right, I think I once read something by you… a post where you noted that perhaps prior to the coming of Islam to Iran and Turan, and perhaps prior to the Turkification of Turan, all three regions (Iran, Turan, and Hind) would have felt rather organically connected in terms of socio-cultural affinity. That insight of yours hit me pretty hard at the time, because it made so much sense.

    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2014/09/29/how-turan-invented-islam/

    christopher beckwith has talked about the ‘indian period in islam.’ this basically alludes to the barmakid ascendency. there is debate whether barmakids were buddhist priests or zoroastrian priests. most ppl seem to think the former. in either case they seem to have been important vectors for the influence of indic thought, buddhist and hindu, in abbassid baghad.

    though the sassanians did engage with india (indian medicine was talk about the persian academies in mesopatamia), their locus of power was in the fars. this is facing the persian gulf, and the indian ocean more generally. in contrast, turan and khorasan have always been at a pivot between regions, and t he subcontinent was one of those regions. the connections between turanian buddhism and indian buddhism seem to have been deep. the presence of hindu shahi kings in kabul indicate that hinduism too was somewhat expansive.

    i think it is clear in the premodern period that there was reciprocal cultural flow btwn turan and s. asia. the aryans are from turan. but there was AASI in some turanians before 2000 BC in the ancient dna. there are affinities btwn iranian and indian aryan religion, and zoroastrianism and hinduism both revere fire.

    what islam did is create an exclusive identity that shut out the kufar indians. by erasing the buddhist and zoroastrian past that cut off the threads which created inter-regional and inter-cultural affinity.

    1. @Razib

      That post is a gem… thank you for linking it! (reread it)

      And this, from the linked post:

      “Here the West is the world of Persia-verging-upon-Mesopotamia, Iran, and the East is India, and to a lesser extent China. The center is Turan. This is a somewhat tendentious position, but I do think it is defensible, should make us reconsider the genealogy of Islamic culture and civilization.”

      A crystal clear statement of a sensible conceptual framework for understanding the broader genesis and history of Islamic civilization.

      ^ It’s a framework one hopes to see utilized much farther (and on more detailed problems) in this field of study.

      1. Oxus-Jaxartes basin was the roundabout and clearing house between these regions

    2. Majority of the Pakistani population is Gujjar, Jutt, Pashtun, Baloch, Pahari, Ghakkars.All of these are honor based races. They generally all have Saka and Central Asian lineages from warlike backgrounds. These ethnicities are the main groups in Norway and Britain who run Pakistani gangs. There is a gang named the young guns of Norway and its full of Gujjars and Jutts who fight against local Morrocan people all day in norway. The Norweigan police needed to make a police division in Gujrat Pakistan just to stop the blood violence in Norway. Ive seen these gangs in Greece and Britain too. Many Mirpuris are Gujjars and they generally fight Nazis and are generally the most loud of the south asians also.

  9. I tend to not think of all Jats as one group, have stated this before, I tend to see the Jats as at least 3 different groups- Muslim Jutts, Sikh Jatts and Hindu Jaats who have different results in the Harappaworld components. Though I am unsure about the position of Rajasthani Jats in this breakdown, I haven’t seen enough results but the one result that I have seen had the NE Euro component at around the low end of the Haryana + Western UP Jat range on Harappaworld. I guess they might be like a Punjabi Sikh Jatt + Hindu Jaat mix or something like that. Alternatively, I have heard that they have mixed with Rajasthani Rajputs so they can turn out to be Hindu Jaat + Rajput instead, haven’t seen the global25 breakdowns of a Rajasthani Jat so I can’t be sure.

    As for ‘the gene’ speaking in haploterms, I don’t know how realiable those old Nagy results are but the larger, more unofficial and more recent datasets do show plenty of L-M20, so that can be a new meme.

    1. @DaThang
      Outside of Pahari (Potohar/AJK) Jatts in Pakistan, I wouldn’t consider Central Punjab Muslim Jatts, Jatt Sikhs and Hindu Jaats as entirely distinct groups. From what I’ve observed over the years, there is just a cline in admixture on top of a Hindu Jaat base. Jatt Sikhs have more IVC and/or BMAC admixture on average than Hindu Jaats and Punjabi Muslim Jatts more than Jatt Sikhs.

      However, there are still a segment of Jatt Sikhs who score similar or essentially the same as Hindu Jaats whether on Harappa/admixture calcs (I have a collection of over 100 Jatt Sikh GEDMatch kits from the diaspora and around 8-10 Hindu Jaat kits) or G25. There are also some Muslim Punjabi Jatts who score close to the Jatt Sikh mean or median. I wouldn’t be surprised if there are also a minority of Muslim Punjabi Jatts out there still scoring identical to Hindu Jaats.

      More importantly though, Jatt Sikhs and Hindu Jaats share very similar Y-DNA on average (Jatt Sikhs have more R1a and Hindu Jaats more Q but both are also L1a2 shifted). My own Y-DNA is L1a2 (L1c-M357), which I share with many Jatt Sikhs and Hindu Jaats. On occassion, even our mt-DNA can overlap (I have the same mtdna as a Hindu Jaat I am sharing with on 23andMe)
      There are not enough YDNA samples for Muslim Punjabi Jatts but I wouldn’t be surprised if their two main haplogroups are R1a + L1a2 as well.

        1. @thewarlock
          I’d have to go through my 23andMe/FTDNA collected mt-DNA data set again but some of the common “West Eurasian related” maternal lines among Jatts (including my own) are H, HV, W & U. I’ve also seen some K among Punjabi biradaris or Jatts more specifically but I have to double check.

  10. I wonder if the Jatt/Rors/etc are sort of like refugees into India from their central asian homeland as they were being replaced by various Turkic tribes moving in from further east during the early part of the common era?

    It would explain their low caste position in the traditional hindu varna system. Because if they came in with Scythian rule, then you would have expected them to be higher up the caste ladder. Instead they are on the lower end.

    If this theory ends up being true, then that means there was a time when people with much higher steppe admix were considered inferior from a social perspective.

    Deepika 1 : RosieODonnell 0

    1. I’ve commented on this in the past, and I doubt it because the later say Iron age populations have a decent amount of east Asian ancestry a corresponding mount of which just isn’t found in Jats. At most it could be some very late bronze age population, maybe with extra BMAC before the Scythian period and the recent east Asian ancestry became a noticeably large component. The limit to this would be based on the amount of east Asian in Jats today- that will be used as a ceiling to predict the max. east Asian in the post Sintashta/Andronovo ancestors of Jats which in turn can give a ceiling on some secondary migration (that I very much doubt to begin with).

      1. What are your credentials? You keep skirting the question yet wax poetic about this esoteric research as if you have a PhD in this discipline. Its hard to take someone seriously when they have no credibility to begin with. Before criticizing someone else’s research or opinion, you have to have the know-how and credentials to even understand the research and be taken seriously by other academics or even laypeople. You portray yourself as someone who is the final arbiter of all knowledge concerning this complex model/study. Let me guess, you’ve read posts on other forums by amateurs themselves who also think they know what they are doing and present their models/results as factual? LMAO

        1. The rabid bitch keeps coming back for another whipping. Sad! You won’t get it this time you masochist.

          1. Typical. Still didn’t answer my question. BTW, that BS you wrote about racism vis-a-vis Jats and how they have it even worse than Chechens? LMAO. By that logic, all MENA and even some Europeans who are more ethnic than the Chechens or look like them in some cases are nothing but “black asses” to the Russians. I know better, so I won’t comment on how absurd that characterization is, especially in the US where Caucasians of all stripes mostly get along, particularly those that arent religiously orthodox. I’ve literally had Russians who are hardcore racists tell me that “Indians are Black” but “you look Georgian! You must be higher caste!” or some variation of that. And why are we just focusing on the Russians? Iranic people in general, from Iran to Azerbaijan have no qualms about accepting me either. You must be one of those admixed Jats that looks like a Reddy, so you spend your time trying to blackwash all Jats with you attempts to portray them as some alien ethnicity that would never even garner respect from West Iranics, let alone others further West. This is also why you post all kinds of unsupported novel observations about “data” based on your “large-brained” analyses of “adequate models” based on circumstantial evidence, that are far from correct to begin with. This blog attracts some truly strange characters, and even bigger egos. Whew. May you live in your delusions forever.

          2. Yeah sure you got along with an actual Russian neonazi as opposed to a generic Russian noticing you as peculiar to his expectations.
            Don’t get involved with the actual racialist crowd, you’d get your head bashed in before you even know what company you are with, thats how you know if you are with a racialist crowd as opposed to curious outsiders.

            Those pictures of your supposed family looked good enough to be targets for some seething neonazi looking to bash in some light brown skinned and hook nosed armenian looking man’s face.

          3. You keep going back to Neo-Nazis as if they reflect the benchmark for whether someone can pass as Caucasian or be a part of the larger “White” or “Caucasian grouping”. Fringe populations like the KKK or Neo Nazis are not a reflection of the general American population’s attitudes towards race, and it is absurd to even bring them up in the discussion as you have repeatedly.

            Do you have personal experiences in the matter? Perhaps you/your father had his head bashed in by an errant neo-nazi when he tried to assert his “Whiteness”? Would explain your impassioned rants about them. Probably left a sour taste in your mouth I bet. In any case, please don’t discount the experiences of others just because you’ve suffered from discrimination because of looking like a Patel or a Reddy, my “Jat” friend.

            Besides, why would I even care about fitting the arbitrary standards of “Whiteness” laid down by fringe groups anyway? I hang out with reasonable people, (some can be racist, most people are, but they aren’t Neo-nazis that expect everyone to look like only certain Caucasians) but if I ever run into someone that covertly holds far-right views to the point of being a skinhead, I wont even befriend them in the first place. Most normal people won’t. So its curious that you keep harping on about how these fringe populations on the sidelines of society will never accept West Asians and Jats.

            I’ve said many times in the past that Jats have a wide phenotypic range, some only pass in Balochestan, others in Iran, and others further west till Turkey/some other neighboring countries. They obviously wont pass as Western/Northern Euros or even as some Meds and Slavics from countries further West and North, because even their ancestors didnt look like those people, according to what we know so far. The major point I am making is that while most South Asians only pass within the vale of the subcontinent, Jats pass in many different places further West based on their phenotype/what part of their ancestry expresses itself in a particular generation/instance. If that is so hard to understand, then you shouldn’t be wasting your time on this blog.

          4. >You keep going back to Neo-Nazis as if they reflect the benchmark for whether someone can pass as Caucasian or be a part of the larger “White” or “Caucasian grouping”.

            No you dumb bitch, I am talking about the people who actually put emphasis on race. The general population doesn’t behave like that because they don’t care about race or how you look, they care about who you are as a person, as an individual. You were flying high as being distinct from the general south Asian groups and I pointed out that this way of thinking leads you into a position where you no longer perceive yourself as what you really are and enter circles of people who hold the same bigoted axioms as you do and you won’t fare well with them.

            >Do you have personal experiences in the matter? Perhaps you/your father had his head bashed in by an errant neo-nazi when he tried to assert his “Whiteness”? Would explain your impassioned rants about them.

            I see there is more projection on the way, for one thing neither I nor my family holds on to these bigoted beliefs so we don’t have trouble, but the nature of my father’s job has lead him to retrieve bigots from bad situations who came at the receiving end of their own beliefs and thus ended up in those situations. We are happy with who we are- Jaats, with the 2 a’s not any other caste or any other race or passing as another race like Whites, Caucasians or Eskimos. Unlike some Khatri who needs to piggy back off some other group’s identity to feel good about himself.

            I’ve had enough of your vacuous nonsense, no substance or data or even a hint of wanting to know the broader truth beyond your own myopic and narrow minded views. Get off my dick now and go bother someone else.

  11. Is there direct genetic evidence of ‘secondary mixture’ aside from Jats having high steppe but low varna status ?

    I mean Haryana was the vedic culture heartland, maybe the Jats are just vedic Kshatriyas or Vaishyas. That lost power / status at some point.

    I will note that Bihari Bhumihars were classified as ‘shudras’ by early British anthropologists based on their occupation. But they successfully sanskritized and turns out they do genetically cluster with Bihari Brahmins.

    1. Sure could be very much true.

      However it does appear there are significant instances where your steppe admix doesn’t correlate with a higher position in the hindu varna system. Jats are a prime example – their supposed lighter features and higher steppe didn’t seem to help them for much of their history where they’ve been seen as shudras.

      In modern times, their jati position seems to have put them in higher social standing. The interplay between varna and jati is also very fascinating. It appears that varna is cast in stone, but your jati can move up and down the social ladder quite easily. In fact commingling all these various phenomena into one word like caste doesn’t sound like its enough to explain the complexity of whats actually going in these societies.

      1. Yeah just like Kapu/Naidu/Reddy are considered ‘good’ Shudra by Brahmins. Time to time some Brahmins (not sure it’s vaidiki or aaruvela) considered Kapu/Reddy/Naidu as “Andhra Kshatriya’. Today, Kapu/Reddy/Naidu/Kamma rule a big chunk of Deccan including AP/Telangana/Karnataka. Historically also these kulam/jatis ruled this part like Vijayanagara/Kakatiya/Reddy Dynasties/Nayaks of Tanjore and Vellore. Because of these dynasties Telugu was spread around so much in the South and it’s the most spoken language. You will find significant number of Telugu speakers in Tamilnadu and Karnataka and Maharashtra (4%-8%) but you won’t find significant number of Tamil/Kannada/Marathi speakers in Telugu lands historically speaking.

    2. Jat haplogroups are weird. High L and Q, relatively low R1a. Indicates something different going on then just more Aryan admixture. L and Q indicate a pre-East Asian steppe enriched population, from Central Asia.

      I’m unconcerned we haven’t discovered the right ancient samples to make the admixtures work, because alternative theories just don’t make any sense at all.

      1. Thats informative thanks.

        So I guess we are looking at pre-mongols steppe but post-Vedic age india.

        So I kind of fits in nicely with indo-greek or indo-scythian kingdoms. And then the Guptas took over the region a bit later on so maybe Jatts got incorporated as a low varna jati with minimal further mixing as endogamy started to become more strict in this period.

        Pure speculation ofc, but kinda makes sense within a broader historical narrative.

      2. @INDThings
        AFAIK, Q is definitely related to Steppe ancestry in the Central Eurasian steppes. It is one of the other lines that Central Asian Steppe nomads (Indo-Aryans or East Iranic like) are associated with other than R1a. L is understudied but most Jatt “L” is L1a2/L1c-M357 related (for both Hindu and Sikh Jatts). It’s also found among Pamiris/Pashtuns in stable amounts and throughout the subcontinent (mostly NW and some South Indian farmer pops I believe) in minor frequencies.

        There also appears to have been a L1a2 founder effect among Chechens of the North Caucasus. Either that or it’s related to the oldest L being traced back to the Caucasus (near Armenia I believe).

        Personally, I imagine L1a2 is BMAC related as it’s theorized some Indo-Aryans or Steppe pops picked up additional BMAC admixture on their migrations to South Asia. However, that is an educated guess based on how Steppe shifted some Hindu Jaats with L1a2 are. L1a1 seems to be more IVC related given its frequency among Iranian farmer enriched populations (think Gujjars and some South Indian farmer populations).

        1. Your confidence in Q being a steppe lineage is utterly misplaced.

          Q & R are brother lineages of ANE ancestry. Their ancestral P lineage likely originates in SE Asia. R’s presence in South Asia is old. Similarly, the earliest split in the Q lineage is between Iranian plateau and South Asia, before its migration onto the steppe. Unless we can identify the specific Q lineage only associated with steppe groups, we should not jump onto the idea that the presence of Q could only be from steppe.

          1. I’m aware of R and Q being brother lineages in the context of ANE but my point was that one of the main lineages found in MLBA Steppe pops of the Eurasian Steppe beside R1a is the Siberian affiliated Q line. And in the context of South Asia, Q isn’t an especially common line. However, it is found at a decent frequency among the steppe shifted Hindu Jaats.

          2. @Jaydeep

            Correct me if I’m wrong but are you suggesting that Q both originated in South Asia (ie OIT theory)? The same for R1a as well? Just clarifying.

      3. any diff in your experience between Indian and Pak Jat views on race? Most people just seem pretty regular in real life. But the online trolling spaces seem to be overflowing with Indian Jat trolls. Are there just more Indian Jats so it biases that way? Any cultural differences?

        1. All this Indian Jat, Hindu Jat, Sikh Jat are all just propoganda tools. Most Indian people all look the same in general. Its only Mirpuris/Pashtuns/Balochis/Wakhis/Paharis who look different in general. Pakistani people are the ones in britain on average roads who can have colored eyes on average. Also to even say MENA and Hispanic guys would do better than Pakistani guys is laughable to the least. Most Arabs are brown and on top of this have semetic features. This is why no Arab makes it in the top 100 best looking people whereas buckets of Pakistanis do. This is why Britney Spears, Princess Diana, Lauren Booth all dated Pakistanis but none dated Arabs before. This is why foster care homes in britain are filled with Pakistani leftovers but none Arabs. Even Zayn Malik and Dynamo were born in foster care homes. Also grooming gangs is just a false name by white loser males. Tommy Robinsons sister from the English defense league was hanging out with Pakistanis all day. This is why the term Pakki shagger is used in britain a lot. Even queen diana was called a Pakki shagger. When has the term Arab shagger ever been used? Most Arab guys are short, unathletic and have hook noses. This is why you don’t see any Arab male MMA fighters in Europe at all. Look at Shoaib Yousef MMA champion the European MMA leagues, look at Solid Impact and Combat challenge belt owners all Pakistanis. Even Muhammad Waseem who has no funding was the WBC champion right now. Even Imran Khan was voted as the most attractive politician in the world at age 50. Why no Arabs at all? Ive seen Latin kings in chicago defecate in their pants at measly black lives matter protesters rioting. Even Americans cant even riot properly. No Pakistani has ever been scared of skinheads in britain even when white and black skinheads team up. Your new jersey was filled with dot busters in 1990s. You Indian guys in America don’t have even have 1% of the fighting potential as Mirpuris who run the prisons of Britain and beat up Jamaicans in them or the streets of luton where they drop skinheads on a daily basis. Google bradford riots, oldham riots, midland riots, even when outnumbered the Pakistanis took them down. You think some midget Hispanic guys and mena limp wrist Americans can fight Pakistani Mirpuris in a race fight? You must be dreaming since they cant even fight Antifa in America. There is just 500,000 Pakistanis in all of America and they’re all sissy lahoris and muhajir indian migrants. There is no way these guys can go toe to toe with Mirpuris who are savage fighters in northern England. The only difference is black guys are richer than Pakistanis on britain and are assimilated with the local white British. Most Mirpuris live in the worst neighborhoods in Britain. Even the highest homicide rates in Britain are not black neighborhoods like brixton or white areas like liverpool. Its Pakistani areas of bradford, oldham, Manchester, look up crime state for each city if you don’t believe me.

          1. \Princess Diana, Lauren Booth all dated Pakistanis but none dated Arabs before.\
            Does Dodi Al fayad ring a bell

        2. They’re plenty of Pakiatani boxers coming up in the ranks, Muhammad Waseem is a WBC champion and Kash Ali is doing great in his division too. Also the Amir Khan tweet with his wife and anthony josuhua was a dumb hoax and everybody knows it. The two never met and Anthony wouldn’t want a toothpick like faryal who is literally 2 ft shorter and smaller than Anthony . It was a neighborhood troll messaging khan. This is why the two even got back to together a week after separating. Amir Khan is worth millions of dollars and was ranked 9th pound for pound in his division. He can get whatever female he wants on planet earth if he knew faryal was cheating.

      4. Haven’t heard of a single L coming from the pre-IE steppe people. The Q might or might not be reliable- it is based on a 2007 study with used strs at 11 positions or something. Though even if it is actual Q it could have made it’s way to eastern Iran HGs who are more ANE-rich than the Ganj Dareh and Tepe Abdul Hosein pastoralists and farmers (probably because of an extra ANE pulse), and through the eastern Iran HG migrations a pocket of Q would have found it’s way into south Asia.

      5. Hindu Jaats still have a decent amount of R1a. Per the calls in the Mahal paper my friend examined, they’re around 25% on average while Jatt Sikhs are around 40%. They both have between 25-35% L1a2 I believe. I also have a data set of commercially tested/ collected Y-DNA for Jatts (mostly Sikh) and their R1a + L1a2 numbers mimic the Mahal study fairly closely.

        Anyways, based on the high frequency of L1a2, it is plausible (if not likely) that some of the Steppe enriched ancestors of Hindu Jaats or Ror were steppe admixed/enriched BMAC populations.

  12. JAT: Just Avoid Them, this was my first introduction to Jats. A Bihari Bhumiyar Brahmin friend of mine educated me about Jats. Being a Kapu from Telangana I never heard about Jats. My roommate in USA was a Jat and I have been interacting with a few other Jats as well. From what I can tell Jats don’t come from sophisticated/cultured families even when compared to Reddy/Kapu/Nairs. They are not particularly inclined towards Dharma as well. However, I think they can lead the new India towards Dharma if given some push.

    1. My experience has been the opposite. Jats from haryana in particular struck me as far more religious and more in touch with their culture than most of my fellow south Indians.

    2. A lot of Pakistani gangs in norway known for maschete attacks and gang violence against other drug dealing gangs like morrocans are the Pakistani Jutt people. They’re generally not scared of getting arrested or starting blood baths on trains like the Pakistani maschete violence in Spain.

      1. @Rajesh

        Are these Pakistani Jatts from Central Pakistani Punjab or Mirpuris from Mirpur/Azad Kashmir? Those are two entirely distinct groups.

        1. They’re from Jhelum and Gujrat and the name of the gang was young guns and the police were scared in Norway to fight the young guns in those areas. I think it was partially Gujjars too. Yes Gujjars are just as violent if not more. Ive seen Gujjars in france fight chechen gangs and helped the Algerians in some gang conflicts in parts of djion france too. I find it hilarious you’re comparing Pakistani soil people to Indian people. The Muhajirs and Lahoris in America are not Pakistani soil people and are migrants and weak like Indians. The real soil people are Mirpuris/Gujjars/Paharis/Waziris/some Balochis

          Even the Pashtuns in Peshawar are weak too and very different from full bred village Pashtuns of waziristan and dara adam khel areas.

          If soil Pakistanis arrived in America, they would scare the latinos and blacks into hiding in America because they’re not scared of the police either and will attack police officers also as Ive seen this in Norway and Greece a lot.

          1. Are Sindhis not considered Pakistani soil people anymore ?

            Especially considering Sindh is 100% in Pakistan, unlike Punjab or Pashtunistan or Kashmir or Balochistan.

          2. Lahoris are “not Pakistani soil people”? Excuse me but half the population of Pakistan is Punjabi.

            Is “Rajesh Kumar” your real name? Are you a Pakistani Muslim?

            I’m sorry but this is beyond bizarre.

          3. “Yes Gujjars are just as violent if not more. Ive seen Gujjars in france fight chechen gangs …. The Muhajirs and Lahoris in America are not Pakistani soil people and are migrants and weak like Indians.”

            Would you say that on average Mohajirs and Lahoris are more civilized than the other groups you mentioned?

          4. No , the Gujjars and Mirpuris are like like Parshuram. They can at once slice the Chechen;s chicken neck, as well as quote from the Hadith verbatim, at the same time.

        1. @DaThang
          Yeah exactly dude, They(almost all) consistently score between 30-35 S Indian and below 10NE, means they are not Steppe enriched at all like their neighbouring indian jatts.
          I think Pakistani Jatts are more ASI shifted than Indian Punjabi jatts.

          1. ‘I think Pakistani Jatts are more ASI shifted than Indian Punjabi jatts.”

            Do u think any self respecting Pakistani Jatt can live with that statement. Please retract the statement 😛

        2. @DaThang
          Most of the Muslim Jatts on Harappa are either Pahari Jatts (from Potohar/AJK with unique clan/gotra names so not related to Central Punjab Jatts) or admixed with other Muslim Punjabi biradaris. I have a few Muslim Punjabi Jatt results that cluster with Jatt Sikhs on Harappa and/or G25. Some (a minority) of my Jatt Sikh kits also score identical to Hindu Jaats/Ror.

  13. BP – where caste chauvinists come to be taken down a few notches.
    Any half astute observer of India would have observed that caste pride is one of the bedrocks of social stability. Every upper to middle caste thinks of itself as special in some way, and superior to many others. Even those that might recognize the ritual purity of Brahmins could easily mock them for their relative poverty. etc..I believe having these small endogamous groups provides social security + social pride = overall stability. It is much easier to be a top honcho of a subcaste of 50000 people in a district of state, or to be aspire to be one….this gives people hope and pride..unlike egalitarian uniform societies…

  14. Jats are more curious about their origins than anyone else because they find themselves not a good fit in the Brahminic system. Their social practices did not fit into what Brahminism preached which is why they got graded as Shudra. The case went to the Punjab High Court more than a century ago and it was decided that because Jats practiced widow remarriage they had to be shudra. It was not just widow remarriage. They would not burn their widows either, or rigorously follow the precepts required when dealing with untouchables. When Maharaja Ranjit Singh died the Brahmins in court had seven of his wives burned with him. This was unheard of among Sikhs particularly Jat Sikhs, though Ranjit Singh himself was not a Jat in the male line of descent, but a Sansi. Jats have never wanted to be anything other than Jat. That is, they have no history of wanting to rise in the hierarchy, and become Kshatriya or Brahmin. This is true of Jaats and Jutts, who are an identical people, though culturally separated by language. Jaats still practice ritual exogamy through their khap system, a practice that is dying out in the Punjab jats and long dead among Muslim Jats because of cousin marriages.
    It must be that Jats Gujjars and Rajputs are later entrants to the sub continent than the original Aryans, because they do not fit in socially into the caste structure. Other Punjab/Haryana communities seem to have no good fit into the varna system either, e.g. Saini or Kamboh.
    In Punjab particularly, but also in Haryana, the caste structure is weak. Brahmins are almost a backward community, and it seems to have been this way for a very long time, not just because of the Muslim conquest. If Brahmins are weak in Punjab, Banias are practically non existent; the Punjabi trader and entrepreneur was the Khatri, and within Hindu society, also the top caste. They substituted for Brahmins, being teachers, gurus, professionals and traders all together in one community. Punjab’s banias are mostly migrants from Rajasthan/South Haryana/ West UP. The caste system may have been born in Aryavarta (Punjab, Haryana) but the original practitioners seem to have departed in directions East and South, their replacement being indifferent to club rules and therefore themselves excluded from full membership.
    Rors are more mysterious. They are confined to a small area of Karnal and Kurukshetra districts and are almost entirely an agricultural society. What Jats and Rors have in common apart from genes is mutual dislike. I asked a Jat once about the origin of the Rors, and was told contemptuously, ‘a Jat fellow ran off with a potter’s daughter and their offspring became Ror.’ Last month I visited a fish farm owned by a Chowdhury and assumed he was a Jat. He put me right, saying, ‘we are Ror here, all landowners in this area; it is no place for Jat day labourers in this village.’ If the genes indicate that the two were one at some stage it must have been a very long time ago.
    “ Results of haplogroup analyses revealed that MRCAs of 302 Jats in our dataset belonged to nine different haplogroups—E, G, H, I, J, L, Q, R, and T—with nine different geographic origins………..About 90% of the Jats and about 75% of the other 38 groups in the study belonged to the same four haplogroups J, L, Q, and R. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5611447/

    1. paternal H. maternal is K1a. I am a backwards Jat 😉

      lol watch people misquote this and not get the joke

      1. Majority of Mirpuri Pakistanis are not skinny fat like Indians. We have millions of Indians in Britain and none are in any athletic sports, not in football, boxing, MMA anything. They’re tons of Pakistanis in British MMA and European MMA
        Half of this poster is filled with guys from Pakistan in Britain and even Arabs are skinny fat too. We have tons of Arabs and none get into any sports either. Not to mention a lot of Arabs are brown like Indian people also. Look at all the guys on this poster. Majority of the Pakistanis do not look brown at all. Zayn Malik despite being white from his mother is a typical skin tone for most Mirpuris in Britain.
        https://images.tapology.com/poster_images/39724/profile/Solid-Impact-Operation-Takeover-poster.jpg?1569601169

        I have no idea how can you use a American Okcupid stat which clearly says Indian dravidian males are the least wanted race and compare them with Pakistanis. When they say Indian guys are ugly. They’re not talking about the minority Aryan caucasoid types of Bollywood like Hritik Roshan and Shahid Kapoor. They’re talking about the hordes of Gujarati tamil pajeets on the internet asking for bobs and vagene from women all day. You also ruin it for other brown guys too. I know some Arabs and Egyptians who were on an online dating site and most women thought they were pervy indian guys asking for bobs and vagene so didnt respond.

        You keep thinking its your brown skin but its your mentality, body physiques, and dress sense which a lot of women dont like. Also Indian women are not good looking either. On British dating sites like AYI, Indian women get the least responses on the site. Even on the British dating show called “Is love racist”, the Indian woman got the least replies from men.

        1. who are you talking to lmfao? You around as schizo as your Prophet, PBUH.

          Who here has said “brown skin” is some dating limiter? Stop talking to yourself. It is weird enough in real life but even more so online. Miripuri Kashmiris in the UK are known for the lowest intermarriage rates, educational acheivenents, criminality rates, welfare use, and birth defects both physical and mental from backwards marriage practices. At best they are the laughing stock of the Pak diaspora but much more so simply the ultimate shame. Also sex abuse of their own is quite high with a huge portion of their population being sexual predators given sex crimes data. The culture is just sad. There has to be real change.
          And if Miripuris were so amazing athletically, they would win some olympic medals. They haven’t done anything on major athletic stages.

          A few adopting chav culture, taking roids, a couple boxing lessons, and training like bros while molesting little white girls with daddy issues and likely their sisters doesn’t make them anything special. And yes if someone is rapping about pimping little white girls like you said aka sexual slavery, they should receive some backlash. Granted, you may come from a dysfunctional background yourself that deems this as normal. I sincerely hope you deal with your own sexual trauma to come out of this. There are resources for survivors. There is help out there. Stay strong.

          Like all the gainsbruhs here. We got some jacked browns here.

          1. The main reason is due to sponsorship and there is Mirpuris on the boxing Olympic team look up Qais Ashfaq who won all the European leagues and represented at the summer Olympics and right now has an 8 and 0 professional record and Jawaid Khaliq who was an IBO intercontinental champion and good boxers like vernon frost back then called Jawaid out but due to promotions it failed to materialize. A lot of this is promotional and integration issues not abilities. All of these guys have 30 win and 0 loss records but unless you get somebody like frank warren to represent you. It doesn’t mean much in Britain. Prince Naseem Hamed use to train with local Mirpuri fighters too and was fortunate to find frank warren and train at the ingles gym too. He even admits in his interviews that he started boxing because there was few Pakistanis in his area and the national front was attacking all migrant types by then. The Yemeni all live around Pakistanis in Britain.

          2. Non boxing fans ko chutiya bana rahe ho!

            Guys I spent a lot of time looking this up but these are our Mirpuri lions. These are the sports heroes of loser rape-y taxi drivers.

            Here is the great boxing star, mard-e-momin Qais Ashfaq and how his 8-0 record was formed, please check out the opponents he went against:
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qais_Ashfaq
            1) Fight against Joe Ham. Qais was winning but not by much. Match stopped because of head-collision and bleeding.
            2) Sean Davis(sucks) (w-14,L-14)
            https://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/fighters/213499-sean-davis-showtime
            LoL! So much pride about beating such a stellar competition.
            3) Stefan Sashev(sucks full time)(w-5,L-25)
            4) Fadhili Majiha (not bad record but has been sucking for quite some time now) (w-24,L-14)
            5) Jay Carney (sucks) (W-5,L-4)
            https://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/fighters/213625-fadhili-majiha
            6) Gary Austin (Hahahahahaha) (w-0 L-2)
            https://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/fighters/82982-gary-austin
            7) Ricky Starkey (Haahahahahahahaahahahah) (w-2, L-18)
            https://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/fighters/234068-ricky-starkey-battalion-stallion
            8) Brett Fidoe (AHAHAHAHAHAHAAH) (W-13, L-59)
            https://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/fighters/219506-brett-fidoe-the-threat

            Don’t have time to look up the other clowns.

            “Jawaid Khaliq who was an IBO intercontinental champion”
            Ahahahahahahaahah

            can’t stop laughing at this ass clown. No one gives a fuck about IBO, you know why because it is a hunk of shit. It is not recognized by WBA, IBF and is clearly a low tier trashy tournament.

            La-lilala-lilallaa-lollallu-lallululaaa!

        2. \Gujarati tamil pajeets on the internet asking for bobs and vagene from women all day\
          You can’t even spell correctly and supposed to be in England. Even to write fantasies, you need better skills. Bullshit meter has jumped off the scales.

          1. There is 400,000 Pakistanis in all of America out of 300 million people. The chances of you even seeing a Pakistani in America is slim to none in most cases. They’re still regarded as some middle eastern foreign race to any average trailer park person there. There is 1.5 million Pakistanis in britain out 65 million people in Britain. Even the most toothless bald british Nazi supporter knows who Pakistanis are there. Also the Pakistanis in America are mostly all Muhajirs meaning Indian migrants. These types even in small numbers arent going to make any noise in a country as large as America. There is 50,000 Pakistanis in Norway but they’re all Gujjars and they make a lot of noise. The young guns are a gujjar gang so they will get media coverage more in Norway.

          2. \Even the most toothless bald british Nazi supporter knows who Pakistanis are there\

            I will give it that much; Pakistanis make quite a few headlines , though not always complimentary

        3. Have some shame dude, lust look at the records of the mirpuri guys you posted. Furqan Cheema, Addy Khan, Junaid Cheema, Zubair Khan etc etc. Their stats suck! the guys they beat occasionally had even pathetic records. This is not stuff to be proud of every MMA gym has people like this. There is nothing special or remarkable about them that you are pawning as incredible athleticism.

          1. Shoaib Yousef is a IMMAF gold medalist which is ranked high in the amateur leagues and has two wins on his pro record
            Muhammad Waseem was literally WBC champion and ranked top 10 in his weight class if he was funded properly by Mayweather promotions.
            I never see Indians win in Europe even in the amateur leagues
            The pro leagues need sponsorships without a doubt.
            Also IBO champion is considered a legit championship but its not WBC, IBF level however the IBF champion Vernon Frost who held the WBC champion and was ring magazine rated at the time called out Jawaid Khaliq but his camp didnt promote the guy properly. He had 1 loss and defended his title 7 times. Even Naseem Hamed said Jawaid had the potential to make it with the right promotions.
            Mohammad subhaan right now is 17 year old boxer right now who is being asked to fly to America and train gleesons gym. The same gym who trained mike tyson and miguel cotto in the past.
            In reality Shoaib Yousef or Muhammad Waseem should train in America

            The divisions are filling up with Pakistanis nowadays. They dont have a family tradition of boxers or a great domestic circuit like Mexico or Cuba does. However within all these boxers, you will get 1 exceptional top 10 fighter. There is thousands of Mexican bums on boxrec but weeding out bums helps find an Eric morales here and there.

      2. The assumption here being overwhelming R1a in Jats comparison to south Asians- something that I don’t see. Punjabi Jatts have about as much, and eastern Jaats have less of it.

        You’re going to have to get used to the Gedrosian desert L-man sooner or later.

    2. “Brahmins are almost a backward community, and it seems to have been this way for a very long time”

      @Onlooker

      This seems to be true all along western India till Gujarat (and parts of Maharashtra?)

      I believe this was true for Brahmins in other parts of India, like Tamil Nadu as well till the arrival of British.

      Brahmin’s value of knowledge only became economically important with the introduction of modern English education and they ran with it.

      1. Unfortunately, in Punjab Brahmin knowledge value is confined to astrology and stuff. It is the Khatris who have the knowledge however little that may be in classical Brahmin terms. Hoshiarpur was a centre of Brahmin learning, but again exhibited only in the Bhrigu samhitas.
        Traditional learning of this type got a fillip with the Arya Samaj when Dayanand Saraswati insisted that the Vedas were the font of all knowledge and all else should be discarded. This caught on with the Khatris particularly in Punjab, but not with the Brahmins who continue to be of Sanatanist bent. In education it is the Arya Samaj institutions run by Khatri Hindus that dominate the traditional Brahminical profession.

        1. “Unfortunately, in Punjab Brahmin knowledge value is confined to astrology and stuff. It is the Khatris who have the knowledge however little that may be in classical Brahmin terms.”

          One can say this is true for the Indo-Gangetic belt in general, Even in UP, Brahmin knowledge production is only important because of their demographic heft.

          This is unlike Kashmiri, Marathi, Tamil, and Bengali Brahmins who have genuine and decently large contribution intellectual contributions in modern times.

          In most of north India, Brahmins are outshone by smaller groups like Khatris, Kayasthas, Jains etc.

          We have a long discussion on this a few months ago on this weblog.

  15. There are few citations about Jats:

    Professor B. S. Dhillon states that Jat people are mainly of Indo-Scythian lineage with composite mixing of Sarmatians, Goths & Jutes in History and study of the Jats. Historian James Tod agreed in considering the Jat people to be of Indo-Scythian Stock.[61]

    Sir Alexander Cunningham, (Former Director-General of the Archaeological Survey of India) wrote: The Xanthii (a Scythian tribe) are very probably the Zaths (Jats) of the early Arab writers. As the Zaths were in Sindh to the west of the Indus, this location agrees very well with what we know of the settlement of the Sakas (Scythians) on the Indian frontier.[67]

    Sir John Marshall, (Former Director-General of the Archaeological Survey of India) wrote: “These Scythian invaders came principally from the three great tribes of Massagetae (great Jats), Sacaraucae, and Dahae (still exists as a Jat clan of Punjab)[68], whose home at the beginning of the second century B.C. was in the country between the Caspian sea (sea) and the Jaxartes river (Central Asia).[69]

    Arthur Edward Barstow wrote: “The Medii, Xanthii, Jatii, Getae and other Scythian races, were gradually working their way from the banks of the Oxus (River valley in Central Asia) into Southern Afghanistan and the pastoral highland about Quetta (a Pakistani city)

    Professor Henry Smith Williams wrote: “The extent of the Scythian invasion has been variously estimated. Some scholars believe that they virtually supplanted the previous population of India (means Punjab), and there seems little doubt that by far the most numerous section of the Punjab population is of Scythian origin.”[73]

    Professor Pritam Singh Gill wrote: “There is a general consensus of opinion that Jats, and with them Rajputs and Gujjars were foreigners who came from their original home, near the Oxus, Central Asia.”[74]

    Professor Tadeusz Sulimirski wrote: “The evidence of both the ancient authors and the archaeological remains point to a massive migration of Sacian (Sakas)/Massagetan (“great” Jat) tribes from the Syr Daria Delta by the middle of the second century B.C. Some of the Syr Darian tribes; they also invaded North India.”[75]

    I. Sara wrote: “Recent excavations in the Ukraine and Crimea. The finds points to the visible links of the Jat and Scythians.”[78]

    Sir Mountstuart Elphinstone Grant Duff wrote: “My conclusion, therefore, is, that the Jats may be of Scythian descent.”[80]

    Ujagir Singh Mahil wrote: “Jat were called Scythians; because they were the inhabitants of the ancient country of Scythia. The Jats who invaded the Punjab and conquered India up to Benares were called Indo-Scythians.”[81]

    James Francis Katherinus Hewitt wrote: “Further evidence both of the early history and origin of the race of Jats, or Getae, is given by the customs and geographical position of another tribe of the same stock, called the Massagetae, or great (massa) Getae.”[82]

    Syed Muhammad Latif wrote: “A considerable portion of the routed army of the Scythians settled in the Punjab. A portion of these settlers, the descendants of Massagetae, were called Getes, from whom sprung the modern Jats.”[84]

    Dr. Gopal Singh wrote: “The Jats of the Panjab, are Scythians in origin and came from Central Asia, whose one branch migrated as far south in Europe as Bulgaria. “[85]

    Satya Shrava wrote: “The Jats are none other than the Massagetae (Great Getae) mentioned in Diodorus as an off-spring of the ancient Saka tribe…. a fact now well-known.”[87]

    B. S. Nijjar wrote: “The Jats are the descendants of Scythians, whose kingdom’s capital was Scythia, in the present Ukraine.

    Steven M. Collins advocates the identification of Massagetaeans as “Great Jits or Jats” of Asia.[89][90]

    Weer Rajendra Rishi advocates that the Jats are none other than the Massagetaeans (Maha/Great Getae).[91]

    Rahul Sankrityayan had identified the Jats as Massagetaeans.[92]

    George Rawlinson has identified the Massagetaeans as “Great Jits or Jats” of Asia.

    Sir Richard Francis Burton wrote: “The Massagetae (greater Jats or Goths) are opposed to the Thyssa (or lesser) Getae, and both used the sagaris.”

    (MT Note – ‘sagaris’ is a two-blades Serbian axe)

  16. The tribes – Sarmatians, Goths, Sakas, Getae, Massagetaeans (from Danube) are all Serbian speaking tribes. The names: Heti (i.e. Hati from N.Africa), Geti from Danube (i.e. Goti=Goths) describe the same tribe which spoke Serbian language.

    In India, this name is JATS. The remains of these Heti or the ancient Hati in India were known as overly cruel and wild, but at the same time warlike and brave, all travellers in India describe them. They were known in today’s Serbia (and Tripoli – Tripolye) during Trajan’s ruling and in other places, such as Venice and Italy, etc. whom everyone recognize as Serbian and called various Slavic names. Roman poet Ovid wrote about them (Ex Ponto) during his exile in Serbian Dacia (City of Constance – Romania).

  17. punjabi jats self proclaim their innocence always ‘ i am a simple minded jat’, this statement has been repeated by dharmender!!, madan lal, devi lal etc.

    1. You call it gang violence but those same gangs fought Nazis and Jamaicans who were attacking Indian and Yemeni people all over Britain in the 90s. Look up the Lynx gang it was filled with Mirpuris and Pathans in the 1980s to fight racist. If there wasn’t gang then it would be similar to your dot busters situation in New Jersey for Indian people.

      1. that was the 80s and super limited. So not really sure if there is credence to what you are saying.

        1. 1980s? The main target for the BNP and Britainfirst have always been Pakistanis. Why do you think race riots like the bradford riots happened and burnley riots, all these attacks were happening through the 90s till early 2000s, the name shifted from hating Pakistanis to hating Muslims after 9/11 which is the same as hating Pakistanis.

          They even made a movie about it
          200 police officers injured and $15 million of property damage, way more than any American riots apart from Rodney King riots.

          All the actors are Bengalis and Indians in this movie but the real rioters were all Mirpuris.

          https://youtu.be/Qca6qB–6JA

          Actually there has been more violence with the police in britain against Mirpuris and other Muslims by a mile vs any black person.

  18. For the humble dark little southerner in me who only had a rather vague of Jats, this thread has been a real ride! Need to get some popcorn as some more protagonists seem to have joined the fray.

    I, for one, welcome our new Jat overlords.

    All hail!

  19. You Indian guys in America don’t have even have 1% of the fighting potential as Mirpuris who run the prisons of Britain and beat up Jamaicans in them or the streets of luton where they drop skinheads on a daily basis

    Easily the best comment I’ve read in a while. Respect bredrin’…

    1. Its a clan system in northern pahari areas and also mirpuri areas. 80% of Pakistanis born and raised in Britain with ties to Mirpur follow this system of clans to make sure the property stays within then family which is why cousin marriages is so high in Britain.

  20. ok. that’s mt. in bengali. but jats are plains people. all the different terms are confusing to me.

    is the original poster saying jats have affinities to ppl to the west, but not to western UP ppl just to the east? and terms like biradari are only for ppl in the west? are khatris biradari too?

    bengalis don’t have tribes or clans that i know of so this is all confusing to me. and east bengalis don’t have caste/jati structure either

    1. I’m a reader of this blog but not generally a poster, and many of these terms confuse me too. When I grew as an Indian-American, I only knew of three castes. (Obviously, that was conditioned by my background, and I know that isn’t the totality)

      South Indians = Tamil Brahmins in particular, and other South Indian Brahmins
      Non-Brahmins = Other South Indians
      North Indians = All Other Indians

      1. “South Indians = Tamil Brahmins in particular, and other South Indian Brahmins”

        Periyar just rolled in his grave

    2. birdaris are clans of Punjab. Haryana was part of greater Punjab. It split because Hindus were ok with Hindi and Sikhs wanted punjabi and their own majority state so Indian punjab was split.

    3. Biradri (Clan) is a Punjabi thing, but it has some impact on broader areas as well. Pahari as said, Mountain thing. Not just NW, even normal North like Ladakhi, Uttarkhand. So generic Mountain

      Mirpuris,OTOH are both.

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