Empire of Incorporation versus Empire of Extraction

I am recovering from jet lag, so I will keep this short and plain. The clip circulating makes a distinction that is worth sitting with: empires that incorporate versus empires that extract.

The empires usually placed in the first category, Chinese, Ottoman, Mughal, expanded by absorbing populations into an existing civilisational framework. They taxed, yes, but they also governed. Local elites were co-opted rather than liquidated. Customary law survived. Grain moved when harvests failed. The empire’s legitimacy rested on continuity: rule was justified by order, stability, and the promise that tomorrow would look broadly like yesterday.

The empires in the second category, French, English, Dutch, were different in kind. They were commercial projects backed by force. Their logic was not incorporation but throughput. Territories were valuable insofar as they yielded revenue, commodities, or strategic advantage. Administration was thin. Local welfare was incidental. When extraction worked, it worked spectacularly. When it failed, it failed catastrophically.

The famine record is the clearest illustration. Mughal India, across centuries of climatic shocks, saw scarcity but not recurrent mass famine. The state intervened. Grain was redistributed. Revenue demands were adjusted in bad years. Under British rule, by contrast, famines became regular and lethal. This was not because Indians suddenly forgot how to farm. It was because policy treated hunger as a market signal rather than a political emergency. Grain could be exported while people starved. The system was doing what it was designed to do.

This difference matters because it cuts against a lazy story we often tell ourselves. Empire is not a single thing. Its effects depend on structure. An empire of incorporation can be brutal and hierarchical, yet still invest in the survival of its subjects. An empire of extraction can speak the language of law and improvement while presiding over repeated human disaster.

The point is not to romanticise the Mughals or demonise the British as uniquely evil. It is to be precise. When we collapse all empires into one moral category, we stop seeing how power actually works. We also stop recognising the patterns when they reappear.

And they do reappear. Any system that prioritises flows over people, efficiency over resilience, and revenue over legitimacy will eventually rediscover the famine; whether literal or metaphorical. History does not repeat itself neatly, but it is remarkably consistent in the lessons it offers to those willing to look without sentiment.

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GauravL
1 month ago

There was a terrible drought (maybe famine too) in early 17th century. Not sure but Maratha castes see a population bottleneck around 400 years. Either drought/famine or mass killings by Sultanates and early Mughals.

Look up Deccan Famine of 1630; Incidentally the year a young boy was born in Shivneri

Last edited 1 month ago by GauravL
Bhumiputra
Bhumiputra
1 month ago

LOL. There have been plenty of previous discussions on this topic esp. regarding correlation between low HDI and prolonged Turkic rule in the sub continent. The only sub-groups who have rosy tinted views of both type of empires are the who acted as local henchmen.
On a related note of why partition was the lesser of the 2 evils, look at the thread comparing the similarities between India and Nigeria. Basically Nigeria is what that Subcontinent as a whole would look like.
https://x.com/sankofa360/status/2008867066577617187

Bhumiputra
Bhumiputra
1 month ago
Reply to  X.T.M

There was another QT which said that undivided India would be like Nigeria domestically in the sense that there would be chronic civil war like situation. Not very different from current reality given the overall demographics and the evolving situation.

Bhumiputra
Bhumiputra
1 month ago
Reply to  X.T.M

The structural factors are similar though. Only diff is Hindu rather than Christian. But again demographic trends seem to be fixing that as well 🙁

sbarrkum
sbarrkum
1 month ago

XTM says: No famines in Mughal India as compared to regular famines in British India.

As no one wants to give references and numbers here goes.

devastating 1630-32 Deccan Famine
3 million deaths in Gujarat/Malwa) being the worst, featuring extreme mortality, cannibalism, and crop destruction, exacerbated by military grain diversion
The famine happened during the reign of Mughal Emperor Shah Jahan.

Other notable famines struck during Akbar’s reign (1555-56, 1573-74) and later in Kashmir (1641), highlighting recurring vulnerability despite agrarian development. 

Read the Peter Mundy first-hand account of the Gujarat famine in link below

“The Gujarat famine began with a drought in 1630, attacks on crops by mice and locusts in the following year, and then excessive rain. Famine and water-borne diseases created high mortality: 3 million died in 1631. People migrated towards less affected areas, many died on the way, and dead bodies blocked the roads. Both Persian and European sources tell the story of this famine, with a subverted cornucopoeia of grotesque consumption patterns: cattle-hide was eaten, dead men’s bones were ground with flour, cannibalism was frequent, and people fed on corpses. Carts belonging to banjaras (carriers) transporting grain from the more productive regions of Malwa were intercepted and supplies diverted to feed Shah Jahan’s royal army in Burhanpur, who were fighting territorial wars in the Deccan (southern) provinces. The pre-famine price of wheat was 1 mahmudi per man; in 1631 it had risen to 16. Imperial charitable practices of opening free kitchens and offering land revenue remission had limited effect. Gujarat was one of the main production centres for calico cloth and this trade was badly affected by the death and migration of weavers.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deccan_famine_of_1630%E2%80%931632

Pandit Brown
Pandit Brown
1 month ago
Reply to  sbarrkum

If the accounts are accurate, the Mughals were diverting food meant for famine relief to soldiers fighting territorial wars in the Deccan. Brings to mind Winston Churchill’s diversion of food supplies (from Australia IIRC) to Greece because he deemed the people there resisting the Nazis more worthy than people dying in the Bengal famine (1943).

Not to excuse any of this, but I think there is an inordinate focus on famines that occurred in British India because they occurred in peacetime, and there was no semblance of relief to the public offered by a government that was all-powerful and very secure in its position; instead, lots of callous statements of the Darwinist kind from people in power. Previous regimes in India, whether indigenous or foreign-derived, would make efforts to provide food, relax/eliminate taxes, etc. when famines and droughts struck.

The Brits kept treating their rule over Indians as a massive social science experiment, which is what I find most perverse about the British Raj and its modern-day defenders. (sbarrkum: to be clear, this is an aside; I’m not talking about you.)

girmit
girmit
1 month ago
Reply to  Pandit Brown

There’s also inordinate emphasis on the colonial admin being attributed all blame for things like the Bengal famine (1943). Indian grain merchants behaved deplorably. India’s total rice exports were less than <2% of Bengals production that year and most of that went to Ceylon, not to any European theater. Price spikes and famine deaths peaked long after trade controls , wartime procurement prioritization and boat seizures were lifted. Nationalist historians have an incentive to omit divisive narratives, specifically when it would lead to scrutiny of a specific ethnic group.

Pandit Brown
Pandit Brown
1 month ago
Reply to  girmit

Agree with not blaming the colonial administration for all and sundry, but in the 1943 case, the government should really have taken the initiative to buy grain from exporters and provide that to Bengal in the form of relief. Rather than relying on a decentralized network of merchants and traders to be altruistic and help out their fellow citizens at personal cost.

I’m as libertarian (on economics) as they come, but I recognize that emergencies are real things, and non-economic motivations must guide government action during emergencies.

A different example: in the US, emergency medical services are mandated by the government to be effectively provided for free (hospitals are supposed to be able to recover the cost post hoc, but there’s no guarantee of that, really). This works in practice because emergencies, by definition, are rare things, and any costs associated with them are covered under normal operation and through insurance programs. But in the absence of a governmental mandate, it’s almost certain that US hospitals will refuse to provide emergency services without an initial cash transfer, as they do in India.

sbarrkum
sbarrkum
1 month ago

When the stubble-burning (hay) season begins around September and air quality starts to deteriorate in North India, the family rents a house away from the region, such as in the coastal town of Puri in Odisha, for weeks.

“I didn’t leave Delhi in search of a better career or lifestyle. I left the city because I realised my daughter deserved a better environment. No parent should have to choose between their home and their child’s health,” he laments.

The ability to exit, however, is unequal. The affluent can afford to distance themselves from pollution, while poor households remain disproportionately exposed and forced to move when livelihood options disappear or health costs spiral.

https://india.mongabay.com/2026/01/toxic-air-pushing-people-to-migrate-from-cities/

formerly brown
formerly brown
1 month ago

also should not maratha empire be called an ’empire of extraction’ in areas away from its core, and i feel vijayanagar should be labelled one of ‘incorporation’.

formerly brown
formerly brown
1 month ago
Reply to  X.T.M

certainly, their influence is negligible in areas where they have vacated the space- ‘from attock to cuttack’.
outside their core area their influence remains only in gwalior, indore and baroda.
the after effects of vijayanagar is still felt up to rameshwaram.

sbarrkum
sbarrkum
1 month ago
Reply to  X.T.M

One forgets the Chola and Vijayanagar Empires

The Chola Empire was extractive from its neighbors at least. Much like French and Spanish Empires

Cholas Invaded Sri Lanka around 1000 AD and lasted 80 years, mainly in North Central Sri Lanka the RajaRata , Mainly for loot and plunder

Brihadishvara Temple, was built using immense wealth from conquered territories, including significant spoils from their invasions and control over Sri Lanka (Lanka), funding lavish decorations with gold, silver, and jewels, along with vast agricultural endowments, making them economic and religious centers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chola_conquest_of_Anuradhapura

Dont know much of Vijaynagar Empire as it did not invade Sri Lanka

sbarrkum
sbarrkum
1 month ago

As XTM has disabled comments on “Persian Conversion” here goes

Another view of Iran Riots (written by a German)

Excerpts

Every two years or so the CIA and Mossad are instigating regime change riots in Iran. These attempts inevitably fail.

Currently a few thousand young men are during nighttime burning cars, mosques, shops and police offices in various cities of Iran. Armed agents are firing at and killing policemen. All these cells are coordinated via Internet connections. (Iran has recently shut down the Internet)

It usually takes a week or two until Iranian government forces find the connections, trace down the ring leaders and shut them down. That process may take a little longer this time because some of the terror cells have been equipped with Starlink terminals.

Meanwhile Russia has developed equipment that allows to detect Active Starling terminals from the air. Iran has already received copies and will soon produces enough of its own to cover its cities.

AI is also used to create pictures and videos of riots in places in Iran where none have happened.

Iran has more than 90 million inhabitants. Many of them support its government system. A few thousand rioting teenagers will not take it down.

Full article link below

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2026/01/iran-shrugs-off-another-round-of-u-s-israel-sponsored-regime-change-riots.html

sbarrkum
sbarrkum
1 month ago
Reply to  X.T.M

Tech glitch; @sbarr it’s better if you don’t always assume the worst?

I dont assume I just work around

When I wake up I read news while drinking coffee. If I see news/posts out of the mainstream I share with a quite a few, not just BrownPundits.
If I wait till some glitch is fixed I forget and move on.

Incidentally Comments are disabled on my post on maternal family are disabled too. Not by me

https://www.brownpundits.com/2025/11/16/multi-racial-multi-cultural-family-in-ceylon/

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